No real sims of modern F1!

Well, after having been taken part to a N4 practice on-line series of four about 50% races, and after some years of GPL offline experience, I must confess that to me all those three "good" modern F1 "sims" - F1CS2000, GP3 and F1RC really are not so very good! They all do have their good points, but I think they really are not simulators in the sense of GPL and N4 are! What do you think? Arto PS Sierra/Papy, please make us a _good_ modern F1 sim with on line capabilities like N4 has!

I would agree with that, but I would really love to see a Cart sim instead. However, any open wheel sim by Papy would be great. Don Burnette "Arto Wikla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wikla.992046514@kanasaari...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> Well, after having been taken part to a N4 practice on-line series of > four about 50% races, and after some years of GPL offline experience, > I must confess that to me all those three "good" modern F1 "sims" - > F1CS2000, GP3 and F1RC really are not so very good! They all do have > their good points, but I think they really are not simulators in the > sense of GPL and N4 are! What do you think? > > Arto > > PS Sierra/Papy, please make us a _good_ modern F1 sim with on line > capabilities like N4 has!

Arto Wikla wrote:

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > Well, after having been taken part to a N4 practice on-line series of > four about 50% races, and after some years of GPL offline experience, > I must confess that to me all those three "good" modern F1 "sims" - > F1CS2000, GP3 and F1RC really are not so very good! They all do have > their good points, but I think they really are not simulators in the > sense of GPL and N4 are! What do you think? > > Arto > > PS Sierra/Papy, please make us a _good_ modern F1 sim with on line > capabilities like N4 has!

If Papy makes it, I will buy it. -- Fester

See now!! if Papy makes it they will come!! "Uncle Fester" wrote: | If Papy makes it, I will buy it. | -- | Fester --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.259 / Virus Database: 130 - Release Date: 6/5/2001

Maybe Papy will make some of you a woman. David G Fisher "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (21 lines)

> > Arto Wikla wrote: > > > > Well, after having been taken part to a N4 practice on-line series of > > four about 50% races, and after some years of GPL offline experience, > > I must confess that to me all those three "good" modern F1 "sims" - > > F1CS2000, GP3 and F1RC really are not so very good! They all do have > > their good points, but I think they really are not simulators in the > > sense of GPL and N4 are! What do you think? > > > > Arto > > > > PS Sierra/Papy, please make us a _good_ modern F1 sim with on line > > capabilities like N4 has! > > > If Papy makes it, I will buy it. > > -- > > Fester

Strange comment. Donald M. Burnette "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_xgU6.5052$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (29 lines)

> Maybe Papy will make some of you a woman. > > David G Fisher > > > "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Arto Wikla wrote: > > > > > > Well, after having been taken part to a N4 practice on-line series of > > > four about 50% races, and after some years of GPL offline experience, > > > I must confess that to me all those three "good" modern F1 "sims" - > > > F1CS2000, GP3 and F1RC really are not so very good! They all do have > > > their good points, but I think they really are not simulators in the > > > sense of GPL and N4 are! What do you think? > > > > > > Arto > > > > > > PS Sierra/Papy, please make us a _good_ modern F1 sim with on line > > > capabilities like N4 has! > > > > > > If Papy makes it, I will buy it. > > > > -- > > > > Fester >

Someone else's papy made me a woman! She's got a full head of teeth to boot~ J. Janasov N. Ga Hillbilly GPL kicks my ass! Don Burnette <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_CgU6.124548$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (19 lines)

> Strange comment. > > > Donald M. Burnette > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:_xgU6.5052$[email hidden]... > > Maybe Papy will make some of you a woman. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > Arto Wikla wrote: > > > > > > > > Well, after having been taken part to a N4 practice on-line series

of > > > > four about 50% races, and after some years of GPL offlineexperience,

Quoted text (19 lines)

> > > > I must confess that to me all those three "good" modern F1 "sims" - > > > > F1CS2000, GP3 and F1RC really are not so very good! They all do have > > > > their good points, but I think they really are not simulators in the > > > > sense of GPL and N4 are! What do you think? > > > > > > > > Arto > > > > > > > > PS Sierra/Papy, please make us a _good_ modern F1 sim with on line > > > > capabilities like N4 has! > > > > > > > > > If Papy makes it, I will buy it. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Fester > > > >

That's bull, Arto -- F1CS2000 is right up there with N4 and GPL physics-wise (this is especially true once you apply the All Chassis Patch to gain the advanced physics). This is a VERY under-rated sim, IMO. Too many people couldn't get decent performance out of F1 2000, and I don't they they've given F1CS2000 a fair shake (you included, perhaps?). With some of the current graphics add-ons, F1CS2K rivals F1RC in terms of eye-candy. This may not be the definitive modern F1 sim, but its successor -- F1 2001 -- will be, without a doubt. F1 2001 could well exceed GPL, N4, and WSC. Just my $0.02 (hey, you asked!). -- JB On 09 Jun 2001 00:28:39 GMT, [email hidden] (Arto Wikla) wrote:

Quoted text (11 lines)

>Well, after having been taken part to a N4 practice on-line series of >four about 50% races, and after some years of GPL offline experience, >I must confess that to me all those three "good" modern F1 "sims" - >F1CS2000, GP3 and F1RC really are not so very good! They all do have >their good points, but I think they really are not simulators in the >sense of GPL and N4 are! What do you think? > >Arto > >PS Sierra/Papy, please make us a _good_ modern F1 sim with on line > capabilities like N4 has!

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_xgU6.5052$[email hidden]... > Maybe Papy will make some of you a woman. > > David G Fisher > Hey, I have nothing against women, some of my best friends have been women, but I don't want to be made one. KFG

I still don't own the full version of N4. I'm not a huge NASCAR fan, I have all the NASCAR tracks in N3 (including Indy and Pocono), I have NASCAR Heat for modern physics, and I just don't feel the need for another NASCAR sim, even if it is the "Son of GPL." Not until the price comes down, anyway. -- JB ("The Heretic") On Sat, 09 Jun 2001 02:28:08 GMT, "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (14 lines)

>See now!! if Papy makes it they will come!! > >"Uncle Fester" wrote: >| If Papy makes it, I will buy it. >| -- >| Fester > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.259 / Virus Database: 130 - Release Date: 6/5/2001 > >

Okay, so other than my previous response which addressed the issue of modern F1 sims, your post has only managed to prompt replies on how much we need a CART sim and how great Papy is. Maybe we should call ourselves rec.autos.onetrickponies . . . ;-) -- JB On 09 Jun 2001 00:28:39 GMT, [email hidden] (Arto Wikla) wrote:

Quoted text (11 lines)

>Well, after having been taken part to a N4 practice on-line series of >four about 50% races, and after some years of GPL offline experience, >I must confess that to me all those three "good" modern F1 "sims" - >F1CS2000, GP3 and F1RC really are not so very good! They all do have >their good points, but I think they really are not simulators in the >sense of GPL and N4 are! What do you think? > >Arto > >PS Sierra/Papy, please make us a _good_ modern F1 sim with on line > capabilities like N4 has!

Even if they used the GPL physics engine? David G Fisher "Kevin Gavitt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:W6hU6.168215$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:_xgU6.5052$[email hidden]... > > Maybe Papy will make some of you a woman. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > Hey, I have nothing against women, some of my best friends have been

women, > but I don't want to be made one. > > KFG > >

>Maybe Papy will make some of you a woman. > >David G Fisher Really? Okay, make mine 25 years old, beautiful, blonde hair, blue eyes, somewhere around 36-24-36 and slightly smarter than a box of rocks. Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

David G Fisher wrote in message ... >Even if they used the GPL physics engine? > >David G Fisher That depends....some I know would benefit from ignoring small, high-frequency bumps... Ben

A classic Dave!! One of the funniest things I've read on ras - ever! Iain "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:EBhU6.5099$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (22 lines)

> Even if they used the GPL physics engine? > > David G Fisher > > "Kevin Gavitt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:W6hU6.168215$[email hidden]... > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:_xgU6.5052$[email hidden]... > > > Maybe Papy will make some of you a woman. > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > Hey, I have nothing against women, some of my best friends have been > women, > > but I don't want to be made one. > > > > KFG > > > > >

F1CS is not particularly under rated here actually. It was the best modern F1 sim, but the cars just feel really heavy now since F1RC was released. What addons are you talking about in terms of eyecandy rivalling F1RC? None that I've tried come anywhere near. Iain "John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (32 lines)

> That's bull, Arto -- F1CS2000 is right up there with N4 and GPL > physics-wise (this is especially true once you apply the All Chassis > Patch to gain the advanced physics). This is a VERY under-rated sim, > IMO. Too many people couldn't get decent performance out of F1 2000, > and I don't they they've given F1CS2000 a fair shake (you included, > perhaps?). > > With some of the current graphics add-ons, F1CS2K rivals F1RC in terms > of eye-candy. > > This may not be the definitive modern F1 sim, but its successor -- F1 > 2001 -- will be, without a doubt. F1 2001 could well exceed GPL, N4, > and WSC. > > Just my $0.02 (hey, you asked!). > > -- JB > > On 09 Jun 2001 00:28:39 GMT, [email hidden] (Arto Wikla) wrote: > > >Well, after having been taken part to a N4 practice on-line series of > >four about 50% races, and after some years of GPL offline experience, > >I must confess that to me all those three "good" modern F1 "sims" - > >F1CS2000, GP3 and F1RC really are not so very good! They all do have > >their good points, but I think they really are not simulators in the > >sense of GPL and N4 are! What do you think? > > > >Arto > > > >PS Sierra/Papy, please make us a _good_ modern F1 sim with on line > > capabilities like N4 has! >

Just to add to the fight, er, discussion; the following about F12001 from Gamespot UK.... http://www.gamespot.co.uk/stories/interviews/0,2160,2088568,00.html GameSpot UK: What improvements and advances have you made to the game engine? Joe Campana: F1 2001 features two major technology advances - graphics engine and game engine. The graphics engine is completely new - our fourth generation, hardware only, DirectX 8, possibly one of the fastest triangle pushers I've ever seen. We support very high triangle counts, as well as complex material properties such as specular highlighting, environment mapping, vertex colour, multiple alpha blending modes, and many other material properties which give the tracks and cars nearly photo quality at high frame rates. The game engine is completely redesigned, including completely new vehicle dynamics based on pure mechanical physics (beams, joints, springs, etc.). The dynamics code runs at over 200Hz, and is by far the most realistic simulation of a race car you will ever experience. When you see the way the car interacts with the driver and the environment, you'll see what I mean. The weather system can recreate pretty much any weather from dry and sunny, to torrential downpours. GSUK: Can you expand a little more on F1 2001's multiplayer options? James Hawkins: Having written our own network layer, we hope to have the most stable TCP/IP support of any racing game. Our new approach to lobbies also means that players will be able to practise on the track whilst waiting for others to join. Finally, Multiplayer Season should satisfy those players wanting to race the entire championship. GSUK: Formula One is among the most crowded and competitive of all genres - what's going to give F1 2001 pole position on the grid? Joe Campana: Simply put, the physics, graphics, AI, gameplay, and multiplayer aspects of this game are clearly the best ever seen in a Formula 1 game, or any racing game for that matter. Hmmmmm....... SB "John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote... <snip>

Quoted text (7 lines)

> This may not be the definitive modern F1 sim, but its successor -- F1 > 2001 -- will be, without a doubt. F1 2001 could well exceed GPL, N4, > and WSC. > > Just my $0.02 (hey, you asked!). > > -- JB

Yeah I'd agree a nice new CART one would be good. I mean, CART Precision Racing from Micro$oft?? Give us a break... I thought it was good but after buying it for �4.99 in the bargain bin, it just proved disappoiting with abysmal accident realism. Pete :) -- >> Take off every 'Sig'... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ��`�.�� [email hidden] `�.���` Email ��`�.�� djpete_g `�.���` Yahoo! ��`�.�� CATS `�.���` mIRC ��`�.�� http://planet-dance.com `�.���` WWW ��`�.�� www.gamesinferno.com/gp3 `�.���` WWW ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Couldn't agree more. Nothing really matches Papy realism. Very unfortunate. -- ------------------------------------- Morgan Vincent Wooten http://home.earthlink.net/~morganv00/ ------------------------------------- "Arto Wikla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wikla.992046514@kanasaari... > Well, after having been taken part to a N4 practice on-line series of > four about 50% races, and after some years of GPL offline experience, > I must confess that to me all those three "good" modern F1 "sims" - > F1CS2000, GP3 and F1RC really are not so very good! They all do have > their good points, but I think they really are not simulators in the > sense of GPL and N4 are! What do you think? > > Arto > > PS Sierra/Papy, please make us a _good_ modern F1 sim with on line > capabilities like N4 has! >

John, I have a sealed box from EBWorld with N4 in it. At the time I was actually so anxious for N4 I couldn't wait for it to be delivered from EBW that I stopped at the mall on the way home from work to pick up a copy. OK.. so instead of wasting $45 I wasted $90 on a sim with great physics and arcade damage. ;) Anyways... Id sell my extra copy "cheap" ;) A bottle of Code Red Dew and stale nachos from 7-11 would probably do it! ROFLMAO </joke> -- Scott B. Husted PA-Scott ICQ#4395450 John Bodin <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I still don't own the full version of N4. I'm not a huge NASCAR fan, > I have all the NASCAR tracks in N3 (including Indy and Pocono), I have > NASCAR Heat for modern physics, and I just don't feel the need for > another NASCAR sim, even if it is the "Son of GPL." Not until the > price comes down, anyway. > > -- JB ("The Heretic") > > On Sat, 09 Jun 2001 02:28:08 GMT, "Thom j." <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >See now!! if Papy makes it they will come!! > > > >"Uncle Fester" wrote: > >| If Papy makes it, I will buy it. > >| -- > >| Fester > > > > > >--- > >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.259 / Virus Database: 130 - Release Date: 6/5/2001 > > > > >

If it was produced by Papy it would be the finest woman ever. On top of that we'd know what to do with her ;) -- Ian P <email invalid due to spammers> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_xgU6.5052$[email hidden]... > Maybe Papy will make some of you a woman. > > David G Fisher >

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:EBhU6.5099$[email hidden]... > Even if they used the GPL physics engine? > > David G Fisher > At this point I have no idea what you're talking about and have no idea if you know what I was talking about. KFG

On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 07:21:12 -0400, "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Joe Campana: Simply put, the physics, graphics, AI, gameplay, and >multiplayer aspects of this game are clearly the best ever seen in a Formula >1 game, or any racing game for that matter. > Pre-release hype is my take on those comments. But, if they can deliver then yippee! F1CS2K is still my favourite F1 sim, and yes, I do have F1RC and GP3.

Sounds a bit promising. Don Burnette "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Just to add to the fight, er, discussion; the following about F12001 from > Gamespot UK.... > > http://www.gamespot.co.uk/stories/interviews/0,2160,2088568,00.html >

Gee you read my mind Kevin!! phew...lol

Quoted text (8 lines)

| "David G Fisher" wrote: | > Even if they used the GPL physics engine? | > David G Fisher | "Kevin Gavitt" wrote: | At this point I have no idea what you're talking about and have no idea if | you know what I was talking about. | KFG

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.259 / Virus Database: 130 - Release Date: 6/5/2001

David G Fisher wrote: > > Maybe Papy will make some of you a woman. Unlike some, I have no need to *buy* a woman. -- Fester 0 1 2 5 27.7

"the cars just feel really heavy now since F1RC was released"???? Have you tried the All Chassis Patch to gain the advanced physics in F1CS2K? ???? - JB On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 08:11:26 +0100, "Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (42 lines)

>F1CS is not particularly under rated here actually. It was the best modern >F1 sim, but the cars just feel really heavy now since F1RC was released. >What addons are you talking about in terms of eyecandy rivalling F1RC? None >that I've tried come anywhere near. >Iain > >"John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> That's bull, Arto -- F1CS2000 is right up there with N4 and GPL >> physics-wise (this is especially true once you apply the All Chassis >> Patch to gain the advanced physics). This is a VERY under-rated sim, >> IMO. Too many people couldn't get decent performance out of F1 2000, >> and I don't they they've given F1CS2000 a fair shake (you included, >> perhaps?). >> >> With some of the current graphics add-ons, F1CS2K rivals F1RC in terms >> of eye-candy. >> >> This may not be the definitive modern F1 sim, but its successor -- F1 >> 2001 -- will be, without a doubt. F1 2001 could well exceed GPL, N4, >> and WSC. >> >> Just my $0.02 (hey, you asked!). >> >> -- JB >> >> On 09 Jun 2001 00:28:39 GMT, [email hidden] (Arto Wikla) wrote: >> >> >Well, after having been taken part to a N4 practice on-line series of >> >four about 50% races, and after some years of GPL offline experience, >> >I must confess that to me all those three "good" modern F1 "sims" - >> >F1CS2000, GP3 and F1RC really are not so very good! They all do have >> >their good points, but I think they really are not simulators in the >> >sense of GPL and N4 are! What do you think? >> > >> >Arto >> > >> >PS Sierra/Papy, please make us a _good_ modern F1 sim with on line >> > capabilities like N4 has! >> > >

The problem is, even if the car handling could be made to feel the same, why would I stay with F1CS? F1RC does everything else better or equal to F1CS. Also, F1CS has the fish-eye effect which alone can ruin a sim for me. It makes the track look too thin and I just find it extremely annoying. Try Spa in F1RC and then in F1CS. You'll see what I mean. Hopefully the new graphics engine in F12001 won't have this. F1RC, RC2000, GP3, and GPL don't have the fish-eye effect. I have no idea why developers put this type of view into their racing games. David G Fisher "John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> "the cars just feel really heavy now since F1RC was released"???? > > Have you tried the All Chassis Patch to gain the advanced physics in > F1CS2K? > > ???? > > - JB > > On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 08:11:26 +0100, "Iain Mackenzie" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >F1CS is not particularly under rated here actually. It was the best

modern > >F1 sim, but the cars just feel really heavy now since F1RC was released. > >What addons are you talking about in terms of eyecandy rivalling F1RC?None

Quoted text (40 lines)

> >that I've tried come anywhere near. > >Iain > > > >"John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> That's bull, Arto -- F1CS2000 is right up there with N4 and GPL > >> physics-wise (this is especially true once you apply the All Chassis > >> Patch to gain the advanced physics). This is a VERY under-rated sim, > >> IMO. Too many people couldn't get decent performance out of F1 2000, > >> and I don't they they've given F1CS2000 a fair shake (you included, > >> perhaps?). > >> > >> With some of the current graphics add-ons, F1CS2K rivals F1RC in terms > >> of eye-candy. > >> > >> This may not be the definitive modern F1 sim, but its successor -- F1 > >> 2001 -- will be, without a doubt. F1 2001 could well exceed GPL, N4, > >> and WSC. > >> > >> Just my $0.02 (hey, you asked!). > >> > >> -- JB > >> > >> On 09 Jun 2001 00:28:39 GMT, [email hidden] (Arto Wikla) wrote: > >> > >> >Well, after having been taken part to a N4 practice on-line series of > >> >four about 50% races, and after some years of GPL offline experience, > >> >I must confess that to me all those three "good" modern F1 "sims" - > >> >F1CS2000, GP3 and F1RC really are not so very good! They all do have > >> >their good points, but I think they really are not simulators in the > >> >sense of GPL and N4 are! What do you think? > >> > > >> >Arto > >> > > >> >PS Sierra/Papy, please make us a _good_ modern F1 sim with on line > >> > capabilities like N4 has! > >> > > > > >

Yep, been using it since the day it came out! Big improvement, but my comments still apply. Iain "John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> "the cars just feel really heavy now since F1RC was released"???? > > Have you tried the All Chassis Patch to gain the advanced physics in > F1CS2K? > > ???? > > - JB > > On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 08:11:26 +0100, "Iain Mackenzie" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >F1CS is not particularly under rated here actually. It was the best

modern > >F1 sim, but the cars just feel really heavy now since F1RC was released. > >What addons are you talking about in terms of eyecandy rivalling F1RC?None

Quoted text (40 lines)

> >that I've tried come anywhere near. > >Iain > > > >"John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> That's bull, Arto -- F1CS2000 is right up there with N4 and GPL > >> physics-wise (this is especially true once you apply the All Chassis > >> Patch to gain the advanced physics). This is a VERY under-rated sim, > >> IMO. Too many people couldn't get decent performance out of F1 2000, > >> and I don't they they've given F1CS2000 a fair shake (you included, > >> perhaps?). > >> > >> With some of the current graphics add-ons, F1CS2K rivals F1RC in terms > >> of eye-candy. > >> > >> This may not be the definitive modern F1 sim, but its successor -- F1 > >> 2001 -- will be, without a doubt. F1 2001 could well exceed GPL, N4, > >> and WSC. > >> > >> Just my $0.02 (hey, you asked!). > >> > >> -- JB > >> > >> On 09 Jun 2001 00:28:39 GMT, [email hidden] (Arto Wikla) wrote: > >> > >> >Well, after having been taken part to a N4 practice on-line series of > >> >four about 50% races, and after some years of GPL offline experience, > >> >I must confess that to me all those three "good" modern F1 "sims" - > >> >F1CS2000, GP3 and F1RC really are not so very good! They all do have > >> >their good points, but I think they really are not simulators in the > >> >sense of GPL and N4 are! What do you think? > >> > > >> >Arto > >> > > >> >PS Sierra/Papy, please make us a _good_ modern F1 sim with on line > >> > capabilities like N4 has! > >> > > > > >

Arto, My brother has just got a new computer and now we can play network games of all the new F1 sims (I bought em all!). We played them all, but I just feel the same, something is missing, they dont feel real. I go back to GPL and find all is as it should be. I think a tell-tale sign that a sim isnt going to be good is bad implementation of force feedback effects. From the little physics programming I have done, I have found that the Force on the wheel is one of the forces that is easily (?!?!) generated once you are using the correct formulas (eg. Pacekja). If FF isn't right, then the physics model isnt as it could be, but perhaps a good estimation. Either way, I have depressed myself.....we need one now! :) Ash

Okay -- fair enough, but I just wanted to make sure you weren't missing out! ;-) -- JB On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 08:36:08 +0100, "Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (65 lines)

>Yep, been using it since the day it came out! Big improvement, but my >comments still apply. >Iain > >"John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> "the cars just feel really heavy now since F1RC was released"???? >> >> Have you tried the All Chassis Patch to gain the advanced physics in >> F1CS2K? >> >> ???? >> >> - JB >> >> On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 08:11:26 +0100, "Iain Mackenzie" >> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >F1CS is not particularly under rated here actually. It was the best >modern >> >F1 sim, but the cars just feel really heavy now since F1RC was released. >> >What addons are you talking about in terms of eyecandy rivalling F1RC? >None >> >that I've tried come anywhere near. >> >Iain >> > >> >"John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> >news:[email hidden]... >> >> That's bull, Arto -- F1CS2000 is right up there with N4 and GPL >> >> physics-wise (this is especially true once you apply the All Chassis >> >> Patch to gain the advanced physics). This is a VERY under-rated sim, >> >> IMO. Too many people couldn't get decent performance out of F1 2000, >> >> and I don't they they've given F1CS2000 a fair shake (you included, >> >> perhaps?). >> >> >> >> With some of the current graphics add-ons, F1CS2K rivals F1RC in terms >> >> of eye-candy. >> >> >> >> This may not be the definitive modern F1 sim, but its successor -- F1 >> >> 2001 -- will be, without a doubt. F1 2001 could well exceed GPL, N4, >> >> and WSC. >> >> >> >> Just my $0.02 (hey, you asked!). >> >> >> >> -- JB >> >> >> >> On 09 Jun 2001 00:28:39 GMT, [email hidden] (Arto Wikla) wrote: >> >> >> >> >Well, after having been taken part to a N4 practice on-line series of >> >> >four about 50% races, and after some years of GPL offline experience, >> >> >I must confess that to me all those three "good" modern F1 "sims" - >> >> >F1CS2000, GP3 and F1RC really are not so very good! They all do have >> >> >their good points, but I think they really are not simulators in the >> >> >sense of GPL and N4 are! What do you think? >> >> > >> >> >Arto >> >> > >> >> >PS Sierra/Papy, please make us a _good_ modern F1 sim with on line >> >> > capabilities like N4 has! >> >> >> > >> > >> > >

Well, you asked for it: http://www.realdoll.com/ Saw this in "Gear" magazine a while back. I think they have Papy beat in this category. On Sat, 09 Jun 2001 03:16:10 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (29 lines)

>Maybe Papy will make some of you a woman. > >David G Fisher > > >"Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> >> Arto Wikla wrote: >> > >> > Well, after having been taken part to a N4 practice on-line series of >> > four about 50% races, and after some years of GPL offline experience, >> > I must confess that to me all those three "good" modern F1 "sims" - >> > F1CS2000, GP3 and F1RC really are not so very good! They all do have >> > their good points, but I think they really are not simulators in the >> > sense of GPL and N4 are! What do you think? >> > >> > Arto >> > >> > PS Sierra/Papy, please make us a _good_ modern F1 sim with on line >> > capabilities like N4 has! >> >> >> If Papy makes it, I will buy it. >> >> -- >> >> Fester >

Yeah, there's hype in there, for sure; particularly Joe Campana's comments (see: CPU req's). I mean; can you trust someone who thinks Magny Cours is the best F1 circuit? I don't think so... ;-) Still, the bits about the new-generation physics engine sounds tasty. SB "#141520" <[email hidden]> wrote... > Pre-release hype is my take on those comments. But, if they can > deliver then yippee! F1CS2K is still my favourite F1 sim, and yes, I > do have F1RC and GP3.

His comments about CPU requirements are not exaggerated -- the 500 MHz PIII hardware that he mentions is what most of the ISI guys use daily. The jury's still out on Magny Cours, though . . . ;-) -- JB On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 11:48:49 -0400, "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (14 lines)

>Yeah, there's hype in there, for sure; particularly Joe Campana's comments >(see: CPU req's). I mean; can you trust someone who thinks Magny Cours is >the best F1 circuit? I don't think so... ;-) Still, the bits about the >new-generation physics engine sounds tasty. > >SB > >"#141520" <[email hidden]> wrote... > >> Pre-release hype is my take on those comments. But, if they can >> deliver then yippee! F1CS2K is still my favourite F1 sim, and yes, I >> do have F1RC and GP3. > >

my ONLY reservation about the gamespot info is the comment about the improved graphics speed. I have been using a PC for gaming since the days of Wing Commander 1. And I can think of many many many sequels that promised increased graphic speed. The quotes always mention finding new ways to improve the speed, or finding a hitch in the original code, With the exception of ID hiring a Microsoft 3d/DirectX guy, I can't think of any delveloper actually hiring a graphic expert to acheive these results.( And I am fully aware many of today's game coders are far advanced in such areas ) It's just: When someone talks of improvements in gaming speed....I'll beleive it when I see it. dave henrie "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Just to add to the fight, er, discussion; the following about F12001 from > Gamespot UK.... > >

With F1CS2K, ISI improved on the basic F1 2000 graphics engine, so why should we assume that they can't do even better with a fresh approach in F1 2001? -- JB On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 16:55:27 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (20 lines)

> my ONLY reservation about the gamespot info is the comment about the >improved graphics speed. I have been using a PC for gaming since the days >of Wing Commander 1. And I can think of many many many sequels that >promised increased graphic speed. The quotes always mention finding new >ways to improve the speed, or finding a hitch in the original code, With >the exception of ID hiring a Microsoft 3d/DirectX guy, I can't think of any >delveloper actually hiring a graphic expert to acheive these results.( And >I am fully aware many of today's game coders are far advanced in such >areas ) > It's just: When someone talks of improvements in gaming speed....I'll >beleive it when I see it. >dave henrie >"Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Just to add to the fight, er, discussion; the following about F12001 from >> Gamespot UK.... >> >> > >

But many users here in RAS reported no increase in framerate which was one of the PRE release hypes of CS. I won't hold my breath dave henrie "John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> With F1CS2K, ISI improved on the basic F1 2000 graphics engine, so why > should we assume that they can't do even better with a fresh approach > in F1 2001? > > -- JB > > On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 16:55:27 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > > my ONLY reservation about the gamespot info is the comment about the > >improved graphics speed. I have been using a PC for gaming since the

days > >of Wing Commander 1. And I can think of many many many sequels that > >promised increased graphic speed. The quotes always mention finding new > >ways to improve the speed, or finding a hitch in the original code, With > >the exception of ID hiring a Microsoft 3d/DirectX guy, I can't think ofany > >delveloper actually hiring a graphic expert to acheive these results.(And

Quoted text (8 lines)

> >I am fully aware many of today's game coders are far advanced in such > >areas ) > > It's just: When someone talks of improvements in gaming speed....I'll > >beleive it when I see it. > >dave henrie > >"Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> Just to add to the fight, er, discussion; the following about F12001

from > >> Gamespot UK.... > >> > >> > > > > >

Yea but do they have the "Bud Bundy Blow Up" version? Thats the real test!! hahahaha :o)~ "Creighton Pendle" wrote: | Well, you asked for it: | | http://www.realdoll.com/ | | Saw this in "Gear" magazine a while back. I think they have Papy beat | in this category. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.259 / Virus Database: 130 - Release Date: 6/5/2001

As far as I recall Dave, it was people (like me) who had no real problem with F12K that reported no increase with F1CS, but those who did struggle with F12K seemed to benefit a lot with F1CS. Iain "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wGOU6.143089$[email hidden]... > But many users here in RAS reported no increase in framerate which wasone

Quoted text (18 lines)

> of the PRE release hypes of CS. I won't hold my breath > dave henrie > "John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > With F1CS2K, ISI improved on the basic F1 2000 graphics engine, so why > > should we assume that they can't do even better with a fresh approach > > in F1 2001? > > > > -- JB > > > > On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 16:55:27 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> > > wrote: > > > > > my ONLY reservation about the gamespot info is the comment about the > > >improved graphics speed. I have been using a PC for gaming since the > days > > >of Wing Commander 1. And I can think of many many many sequels that > > >promised increased graphic speed. The quotes always mention finding

new > > >ways to improve the speed, or finding a hitch in the original code,With > > >the exception of ID hiring a Microsoft 3d/DirectX guy, I can't thinkof > any > > >delveloper actually hiring a graphic expert to acheive these results.( > And > > >I am fully aware many of today's game coders are far advanced in such > > >areas ) > > > It's just: When someone talks of improvements in gamingspeed....I'll

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > >beleive it when I see it. > > >dave henrie > > >"Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > >news:[email hidden]... > > >> Just to add to the fight, er, discussion; the following about F12001 > from > > >> Gamespot UK.... > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > >

That's the way I recall it too, Iain. Also FWIW, I personally didn't really see any large numeric boost in frame rates in F1CS over F1 2000, but what I DID see was more consistent, STABLE frame rates running near the high end, with fewer drops in frame rates, and smaller drops in performance when frame rate drops did occur. That made F1CS run MUCH more smoothly overall for me compared to F1 2000, with almost now choppiness, lag, and hesitation in the graphics. It was an incremental improvement, not as astronomical one, but if they can take small steps like that in tweaking an existing game engine, I would bet that they can make even better improvements with an all-new graphics engine, and that's my point. ;-) -- JB On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 21:10:01 +0100, "Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (56 lines)

>As far as I recall Dave, it was people (like me) who had no real problem >with F12K that reported no increase with F1CS, but those who did struggle >with F12K seemed to benefit a lot with F1CS. >Iain > > >"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:wGOU6.143089$[email hidden]... >> But many users here in RAS reported no increase in framerate which was >one >> of the PRE release hypes of CS. I won't hold my breath >> dave henrie >> "John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >> > With F1CS2K, ISI improved on the basic F1 2000 graphics engine, so why >> > should we assume that they can't do even better with a fresh approach >> > in F1 2001? >> > >> > -- JB >> > >> > On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 16:55:27 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> >> > wrote: >> > >> > > my ONLY reservation about the gamespot info is the comment about the >> > >improved graphics speed. I have been using a PC for gaming since the >> days >> > >of Wing Commander 1. And I can think of many many many sequels that >> > >promised increased graphic speed. The quotes always mention finding >new >> > >ways to improve the speed, or finding a hitch in the original code, >With >> > >the exception of ID hiring a Microsoft 3d/DirectX guy, I can't think >of >> any >> > >delveloper actually hiring a graphic expert to acheive these results.( >> And >> > >I am fully aware many of today's game coders are far advanced in such >> > >areas ) >> > > It's just: When someone talks of improvements in gaming >speed....I'll >> > >beleive it when I see it. >> > >dave henrie >> > >"Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> > >news:[email hidden]... >> > >> Just to add to the fight, er, discussion; the following about F12001 >> from >> > >> Gamespot UK.... >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> > >

"Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hrQU6.11515$[email hidden]... > As far as I recall Dave, it was people (like me) who had no real problem > with F12K that reported no increase with F1CS, but those who did struggle > with F12K seemed to benefit a lot with F1CS. > Iain > > And I was one of those. I never really did find a combination of graphics settings that made driving F12K anything other than a chore. Even at 640x and lowered details there were "hitches" and no real speed sensation. I always thought the reason was that the game engine was designed more for 3dfx, with the DX needed for my Geforce card tacked on as an afterthought. Maybe not. Anyway, things were greatly improved with F1CS, but graphics-wise its still much behind F1RC (at least based on the few times I've been able to see it), and as far as overall speed sensation is concerned, even GP3. And I hate to say it, but NONE of these IMO offers the speed sensation of the framerate-limited GPL. (Although F1RC might come close, if I was ever able to run enough laps with it to see. <g>) Jerry Morelock

I have to ask... did you have that site bookmarked or did you search for it??? :) dave henrie "Creighton Pendle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Well, you asked for it: > > http://www.realdoll.com/ >

No way he had it bookmarked. RAS'ers bitch and moan about paying $40.00 for some virtual reality. You think they would ever pay $5,000? David G Fisher "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jrSU6.144412$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> I have to ask... > did you have that site bookmarked or did you search for it??? :) > dave henrie > "Creighton Pendle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Well, you asked for it: > > > > http://www.realdoll.com/ > > > >

Maybe a steady customer? hahaha Sorry Lucifer did it to me again! :o( "Dave Henrie" wrote: | I have to ask... | did you have that site bookmarked or did you search for it??? :) | dave henrie | "Creighton Pendle" wrote: | > Well, you asked for it: | > http://www.realdoll.com/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.259 / Virus Database: 130 - Release Date: 6/5/2001

Indeed, for that kind of money you can run your own kart for a year... and there isn't even a demo! ;-) Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. David G Fisher wrote... > No way he had it bookmarked. RAS'ers bitch and moan > about paying $40.00 for some virtual reality. You > think they would ever pay $5,000? > > David G Fisher

J. Janasov <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9fs63a$ia0$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> Someone else's papy made me a woman! She's got a full head of teeth to > boot~ > > J. Janasov > N. Ga Hillbilly > GPL kicks my ass! >

You boot your woman in the teeth? That's cruel... -- -Ace- GPLRank -24.33 (MONSTERS of GPL +30.81) **remove BRAIN before replying**

I am utterly confused by this entire thread. The games that you guys cite as "realistic" are in my mind, worse than arcade. (At least arcades are fun. Or should be.) I'd like to know if I'm messing up my perspective with the way I'm set up and/or what your perspective/experience is. Indulge me, please: Favorite sim? How big is your monitor? How many colors? What resolution? How far from your eyes? How much above or below eye level is the center of your screen? Do you have normal vision/depth perception? Have you ever driven a real car? One above 300HP? Above 500HP? Do you know how to pitch, wash, and drift on demand? Any real racing experience? Do you know the difference between "on" and "over"? Do you know what I mean when a ask if you can drive the car "level" all the way around? If Papy makes another open wheel I'm just going to quit. They've got it all wrong and N4 is worse than GPL. Fortunately, I could care less about circle racing, but I've had it with the papy openwheeler and it's domination on the net. Obviously, it dominates because their online coding rules, but I'd really like to drive a real sim against my friends. When I say real sim, I do not only mean that the physics are accurate, (which GPL is marginal) but that the drivers perception of what's happening in the physics engine is accurate also. Great physics can be had with a bunch of numbers on a piece of paper, but when we are talking about a game/sim it's pretty darned important (to me, anyway) that it feel like driving a race car and that I am capable of driving it with some anticipation - that I can know what the car is going to do. I'd also like the consequences of actions to be realistic. The easiest way for me to judge that, is to rely on what I know in real life, so, that's probably how I describe a "sim". Can real life techniques and instincts be utilized and relied upon to lap in a certain game? If the answer is yes, it's a sim in my book. Also, if I can watch one of the real guys do it and use his techniques to the same advantages, then it's a sim. (Track accuracy comes into play here.) The more techniques I can swipe from Clark/Schumacher and use effectively in a given lap, the more pure the sim. When I say copy techniques, I don't just mean making the car perform certain balancing acts, I am also referring to the mental approach, strategy, visual cues, audio cues, (Obviously there are no gravity cues.) and emotional output/expressive performance/intuitive freedom. So far, haven't met a pure sim. But I know what stands out in my head as miles above the rest. I've had to learn a whole new set of rules to drive the Papy product yet almost all other games have come naturally. What does that mean? I haven't tried that patch for CS, but without it there is nothing, NOTHING realistic about driving the thing... that must be some patch. -- Mark Jeangerard [email hidden] Administrator GPVL F2 Division http://home.att.net/~m.jeangerard/GPVLF2 "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:txfU6.124516$[email hidden]... > I would agree with that, but I would really love to see a Cart sim instead. > However, any open wheel sim by Papy would be great. > > Don Burnette > > > "Arto Wikla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:wikla.992046514@kanasaari... > > Well, after having been taken part to a N4 practice on-line series of > > four about 50% races, and after some years of GPL offline experience, > > I must confess that to me all those three "good" modern F1 "sims" - > > F1CS2000, GP3 and F1RC really are not so very good! They all do have > > their good points, but I think they really are not simulators in the > > sense of GPL and N4 are! What do you think? > > > > Arto > > > > PS Sierra/Papy, please make us a _good_ modern F1 sim with on line > > capabilities like N4 has! > >

mark jeangerard wrote... > I am utterly confused by this entire thread. The games > that you guys cite as "realistic" are in my mind, worse > than arcade. (At least arcades are fun. Or should be.) I wouldn't say that... to me some are not rewarding enough to bother with for any length of time. > I'd like to know if I'm messing up my perspective with > the way I'm set up and/or what your perspective/experience > is. Indulge me, please: > Favorite sim? GPL... if I were just running off-line, I might migrate to N4, but I'm still having too much fun running against you (among others). > How big is your monitor? 14" > How many colors? I run most games in 16-bit colour. > What resolution? 800x600 > How far from your eyes? about 65cm at an angle of about 15 degrees left in the horizontal plane. > How much above or below eye level is the center of > your screen? 3 to 5 cm, slightly tilted back. > Do you have normal vision/depth perception? Think so... I can hit a man sized target at 250m 10 out of 10 with an M16 of that's a reference. > Have you ever driven a real car? Been driving for 13 years. > One above 300HP? Yes, at about 6/10ths > Above 500HP? No. > Do you know how to pitch, wash, and drift on demand? Yes. That is to say I can provoke it, whether I can stay on top of it is another matter. I tend not to push my luck unless I really have to. > Any real racing experience? Yes, but nothing relevant to available simracing games. Besides, I didn't know jack back in those days. > Do you know the difference between "on" and "over"? Yup, even know "lost it" ;-) > Do you know what I mean when a ask if you can drive the > car "level" all the way around? Not familiar with the expression, sorry. > If Papy makes another open wheel I'm just going > to quit. <snip> Pretty radical Mark, but I understand your frustration. If I could teach you to "feel" GPL, I would, believe me. Just like you would (I hope) teach me to "feel" GP3 (much better thanks to your suggestions though, thank you). > I've had to learn a whole new set of rules to drive the > Papy product yet almost all other games have come naturally. > What does that mean? It means you pick up on different things. Obviously the guys at Papyrus will code what makes them tick. If one experiences simracing games like they do, great. If one doesn't: tough shit. Nothing we can do about that. Perhaps the West brothers will strike a happier compromise. > I haven't tried that patch for CS, but without it there is > nothing, NOTHING realistic about driving the thing... that > must be some patch. With you here... haven't tried it either (sorry John). Indulge me in return... Still driving non-FF? -and 85/45 setups? Don't know if I asked you before (I forget... ), but have you tried MBTR? -Feels GP3-esque to me, with the crucial difference of it looking good when using a 3D card. (me ---> ducks for cover ;-)) Jan. =---

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > How big is your monitor? > > 14" Interesting. Sometimes I feel as if I can't get back far enough. I see far too little. How is your sense of speed in GPL? > > How far from your eyes? > > about 65cm at an angle of about 15 degrees left in the horizontal plane. Wow! Why? > > Have you ever driven a real car? > > Been driving for 13 years. Yes, but have you ever driven on the Nordschleife? <WEG> > > Do you know how to pitch, wash, and drift on demand? > > Yes. That is to say I can provoke it, whether I can stay on top of it is > another matter. I tend not to push my luck unless I really have to. Therein may lie part of the problem. I wonder how many slide a car a good deal of the time. When you become comfortable with it, you are not pushing your luck but rather, driving normally. So how does someone who's never driven a car at the limit expect a computer game to handle? How do the game makers approach that? I spend a lot of time sliding and never think about it getting away on me because a car can be pitched without going over and I can tell the degree of looseness I've involved myself in. There is much range inside a slide that can be manipulated. (BTW Can I borrow your car in September?) GPL misses that entirely.

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > If Papy makes another open wheel I'm just going > > to quit. <snip> > > Pretty radical Mark, but I understand your frustration. If I could teach you > to "feel" GPL, I would, believe me. Just like you would (I hope) teach me to > "feel" GP3 (much better thanks to your suggestions though, thank you). > > > I've had to learn a whole new set of rules to drive the > > Papy product yet almost all other games have come naturally. > > What does that mean? > > It means you pick up on different things. Obviously the guys at Papyrus will > code what makes them tick. If one experiences simracing games like they do, > great. If one doesn't: tough shit. Nothing we can do about that. Perhaps the > West brothers will strike a happier compromise.

I used to take that point of view but can't agree now. I've had too much time in GPL to not see the problems. Accelerate to 42 mph going around the big left into the hairpin at Rouen. hold the car steady at 45 until you hit the tires. Do the same thing again at 36 mph. Now watch the replays with the sound off and a piece of paper over the gauges. Can you tell the difference in speed? I know it's only 6 mph, but at that point on that track it's crucial. Or go look at one of those Real Ring vs. GPL Ring web pages. The perspective problem is more than obvious. What about the latency issue? How are you supposed to drive with anticipation when it's only after you've spun that you realize you've acquired wheelspin. Why does a GPL car that's not sliding feels like it is sliding. I don't even want to get into the sliding characteristics. Think about it, you're only ever quick in GPL once you have accumulated many laps at a particular track. You have to learn all the quirks, every time out. In a real sim, you can jump right in, and know what the thing is going to do. Provided you can get a good read. And Papy's view is the worst of the worst, so you never get a good read. Personally, my vision keeps getting drawn back into the foreground. I can't say they did anything right on our end of the code. > Indulge me in return... > > Still driving non-FF? -and 85/45 setups? Yes. I want to try an FF wheel but am waiting for the 20 dollar version. I'm not impressed with F355 Challenge so naturally don't expect a 30 dollar game to make me believe it. 85/45, 85/30, 60/60, 60/45, 60/30. At this point my Milano setup is 30/85 with 6 clutches. > Don't know if I asked you before (I forget... ), but have you tried > MBTR? -Feels GP3-esque to me, with the crucial difference of it looking good > when using a 3D card. (me ---> ducks for cover ;-)) > > Jan. Only the demo and I loved it. I don't know if I'd compare it to GP3, it lacks depth and realism. But I can drive it with anticipation. It reminds me of NICE, the physics are a little kooky, but the game makers did a great job of making the interface broadcast those properties to the driver. We know what the game is doing, is going to do, and the instinctual response usually produces the expected result. I wish all games/sims had that quality. I gotta get my hands on a copy of STCC 2 also. EB never heard of it. -- Mark Jeangerard

Have you ever driven a real life 1967 GPL type chassis? I have! fwiw...If you slide all around the roads in the USA expect to be tossed in jail for awhile!! :-) "mark jeangerard" wrote: | > > Do you know how to pitch, wash, and drift on demand? | Therein may lie part of the problem. I wonder how many slide a car a gooddeal of the | time. When you become comfortable with it, you are not pushing your luckbut rather, | driving normally. So how does someone who's never driven a car at thelimit expect a | computer game to handle? How do the game makers approach that? I spend alot of time | sliding and never think about it getting away on me because a car can bepitched without | going over and I can tell the degree of looseness I've involved myself in.There is much | range inside a slide that can be manipulated. (BTW Can I borrow your carin September?) | GPL misses that entirely. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.259 / Virus Database: 130 - Release Date: 6/5/2001

mark jeangerard wrote... > <snip> > > 14" > > Interesting. Sometimes I feel as if I can't get back far enough. > I see far too little. How is your sense of speed in GPL? Not as good as in real life, but as good as in any game. > > about 65cm at an angle of about 15 degrees left in the > > horizontal plane. > > Wow! Why? 'cos I have a small desk and that's the way it was set up when I started out. I've already experimented with it dead ahead, but after about 30 mins of getting used to, it feels just the same. I've found one's either immersed or one isn't. So, I put it back in order to be able to type in a more relaxed manner. Interestingly though, when using a joystick in SBK2001 or a flight game I need it centered and normal to the monitor to make it feel "natural". > > > <snip> > > Been driving for 13 years. > > Yes, but have you ever driven on the Nordschleife? <WEG> I have actually. <VWG>

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > > Do you know how to pitch, wash, and drift on demand? > > > > Yes. That is to say I can provoke it, whether I can stay > > on top of it is another matter. I tend not to push my > > luck unless I really have to. > > Therein may lie part of the problem. I wonder how many > slide a car a good deal of the time. When you become > comfortable with it, you are not pushing your luck but > rather, driving normally.

I think there is a slight difference in traffic density in our habitats... some days there isn't even the opportunity to break the speed limit let alone safely find the limit of the car 'round here. There's also a big difference between an 87hp, 1250kg, front wheel drive family car and a race car. I think I have a pretty good idea of where the limit is for my car (finally, took much longer to suss out than my previous one) and I'm pretty confident I can take it there (would be a PITA with the clumsy controls it has though). I might take it to a track day at Zolder once the power steering is fixed and find out.

Quoted text (8 lines)

> So how does someone who's never driven a car at the limit > expect a computer game to handle? How do the game makers > approach that? I spend a lot of time sliding and never think > about it getting away on me because a car can be pitched > without going over and I can tell the degree of looseness > I've involved myself in. There is much range inside a slide > that can be manipulated. (BTW Can I borrow your car in September?) > GPL misses that entirely.

Yup, I agree. If you'd never slid/drifted in real life, GPL would keep you from attempting it. It's not without it's faults, but keep in mind in real life you can actually gauge how "violently" you've just chucked it because you're subjected to all the accellerations. In GPL there's only the FF, which is good, but needs nearly concious interpretation. A sort of "you realise you felt it after it happened" sort of deal, building experience as you have more spins/offs. You'd be much better off renting a BMW 318 Compact or something (then again: how tall are you?), believe me. Mine's an A to B thing, no consensus to actually enjoying the driving is made. Besides, I'm not going to let you attempt Masta flat in *my* car. ;-)

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > > <snip> > I used to take that point of view but can't agree now. > I've had too much time in GPL to not see the problems. > Accelerate to 42 mph going around the big left into the > hairpin at Rouen. hold the car steady at 45 until you > hit the tires. Do the same hing again at 36 mph. Now watch > the replays with the sound off and a piece of paper over > the gauges. Can you tell the difference in speed? I know > it's only 6 mph, but at that point on that track it's > crucial.

Hardly, there is a bit of a giveaway in this situation as at 36mph the logos on the tyres are noticably less blurred. On the other hand there are a number of corners in GPL (where's there's no clear brake marker) where I just brake early and trust to my sense of speed to modulate such as to arrive at the turn-in point at the right speed. Works quite well for me. > Or go look at one of those Real Ring vs. GPL Ring web pages. > The perspective problem is more than obvious. Keep in mind that what we see of the real track are pictures and the view in GPL is supposed to emulate your field of vision. Having driven the real track I can attest the way the it presents itself to the driver is very similar (be it from a slightly different viewpoint, obviously), similar enough for me to know *exactly* where I was at all times. > What about the latency issue? How are you supposed to drive > with anticipation when it's only after you've spun that you > realize you've acquired wheelspin. Why does a GPL car that's > not sliding feels like it is sliding. I don't even want to > get into the sliding characteristics. In my exoperience it's not any worse in the anticipation department than any other game except N4. > Think about it, you're only ever quick in GPL once you have > accumulated many laps at a particular track. You have to learn > all the quirks, every time out. In a real sim, you can jump > right in, and know what the thing is going to do. I'm getting better at it, getting up to my usual level in 20 laps at most. Then again, my level is a lot further from the absolute limit than yours. > Provided you can get a good read. And Papy's view is the worst > of the worst, so you never get a good read. Personally, my > vision keeps getting drawn back into the foreground. I can't > say they did anything right on our end of the code. I find myself constantly switching back and forth to double check if my actions have had the correct result in all games to some degree and GPL isn't the worst of the bunch for me (that honour would befall GP3).

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > Indulge me in return... > > > > Still driving non-FF? -and 85/45 setups? > > Yes. I want to try an FF wheel but am waiting for the 20 > dollar version. I'm not impressed with F355 Challenge so > naturally don't expect a 30 dollar game to make me believe > it.

It makes a world of difference. Relieves your eyes to a certain extend. Can't even imagine what GPL would be like without now. I've yet to try this F355 challenge, mostly because that game is about a budget copy of GPL a go over here. > 85/45, 85/30, 60/60, 60/45, 60/30. At this point my Milano > setup is 30/85 with 6 clutches. Silly question, forget I asked it. With an 85/45 I still feel the car just fine... just drives a little weird.

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > Don't know if I asked you before (I forget... ), but have > > you tried MBTR? -Feels GP3-esque to me, with the crucial > difference of it looking good when using a 3D card. (me ---> > > ducks for cover ;-)) > > Only the demo and I loved it. I don't know if I'd compare it > to GP3, it lacks depth and realism.

Yeah, setup options and damage (and the weather) are a bit on the "game" side, but otherwise... > But I can drive it with anticipation. It reminds me of NICE, > the physics are a little kooky, but the game makers did a > great job of making the interface broadcast those properties > to the driver. We know what the game is doing, is going to do, > and the instinctual response usually produces the expected > result. I wish all games/sims had that quality. Exactly, but how come I get all that in this one too, while in our Canade TopGear race (GP3) I power understeered straight off the track without noticing before it was too late? -This stuff is getting weirder by the minute. > I gotta get my hands on a copy of STCC 2 also. EB never heard > of it. If the place where I got it has some more I'd be glad to get you a copy. Say the word. Jan. =---

You can't just come in here and say that without posting a detailed side by side comparison!?! I mean, all the unanswered questions. Was the 67 really such an awkward pig? Or was it precise? Video footage of Hill at Monaco would indicate that you could apex the car with relative ease. I would like to believe that. fwiw I can give you the long list of exactly what you can and can't do in a car to get thrown in jail in the USA. The *in jail* end of it is pretty short. You must live in California, where it's illegal to call your mother on mother's day. :-) -- Mark Jeangerard [email hidden] Administrator GPVL F2 Division http://home.att.net/~m.jeangerard/GPVLF2 "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:s_lV6.11270$[email hidden]... > Have you ever driven a real life 1967 GPL type chassis? I have! > fwiw...If you slide all around the roads in the USA expect to be > tossed in jail for awhile!! :-)

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Interesting. Sometimes I feel as if I can't get back far enough. > > I see far too little. How is your sense of speed in GPL? > > Not as good as in real life, but as good as in any game. I'm starting to get the feeling that computer screens don't cater well to different occular dispossitions. I get no sense of speed whatsoever.

Quoted text (7 lines)

> 'cos I have a small desk and that's the way it was set up when I started > out. I've already experimented with it dead ahead, but after about 30 mins > of getting used to, it feels just the same. I've found one's either > immersed or one isn't. So, I put it back in order to be able to type in a > more relaxed manner. Interestingly though, when using a joystick in SBK2001 > or a flight game I need it centered and normal to the monitor to make it > feel "natural".

How's this for funny. I can't sit straight on for SBK2001. (Another 300 laps or so and I'll be ready to race online. Using a Dual Strike and just starting to get natural.) > > Yes, but have you ever driven on the Nordschleife? <WEG> > > I have actually. <VWG> Where's that MPG? > There's also a big > difference between an 87hp, 1250kg, front wheel drive family car and a race > car. I find race cars infinitely easier to drive than road cars.

Quoted text (7 lines)

> Yup, I agree. If you'd never slid/drifted in real life, GPL would keep you > from attempting it. It's not without it's faults, but keep in mind in real > life you can actually gauge how "violently" you've just chucked it because > you're subjected to all the accellerations. In GPL there's only the FF, > which is good, but needs nearly concious interpretation. A sort of "you > realise you felt it after it happened" sort of deal, building experience as you have > more spins/offs.

That is my primary point. In other games you can tell how violently you've chucked it. I'm not sure how they've managed to transmit this in the others but GPL is way down the road. I suspect the perspective and sense of speed bits. I suspect the dynamic cockpit is the #1 contributer to those problems. But you've heard all about that. :-) > You'd be much better off renting a BMW 318 Compact or something (then again: > how tall are you?), believe me. Mine's an A to B thing, no consensus to > actually enjoying the driving is made. Besides, I'm not going to let you > attempt Masta flat in *my* car. ;-) Just kidding. :-) 5'10" and we have a car. If the car is substandard I'll get something a little more substantial for the Nordschleife. > Keep in mind that what we see of the real track are pictures and the view in > GPL is supposed to emulate your field of vision. Having driven the real > track I can attest the way the it presents itself to the driver is very > similar (be it from a slightly different viewpoint, obviously), similar > enough for me to know *exactly* where I was at all times. It's not really a matter of where I am on the track as it is how I look at the track at speed. Strictly perspective and strictly Kaemmer. SBK is a good example of realistic perspective. I wish I could put a GPL car on those tracks. > In my exoperience it's not any worse in the anticipation department than any > other game except N4. Once again, the old eyeball comes into play. I wonder how the game makers who everyone likes do it. > I find myself constantly switching back and forth to double check if my > actions have had the correct result in all games to some degree and GPL > isn't the worst of the bunch for me (that honour would befall GP3). Weird. I read GP3 almost perfectly. Games will get better, but GP3 is very satisfying to me. > > Only the demo and I loved it. I don't know if I'd compare it > > to GP3, it lacks depth and realism. > > Yeah, setup options and damage (and the weather) are a bit on the "game" > side, but otherwise... I was referring to the depth of the tires. I find GP3 to be the best at comunicating what the tires are doing. They have more color than any other sim. If you know what I mean. GP3 is the one that closed the door on GPL for me. From here on out we are going to see some really nice driving games. > Exactly, but how come I get all that in this one too, while in our Canade > TopGear race (GP3) I power understeered straight off the track without > noticing before it was too late? -This stuff is getting weirder by the > minute. Because that's the way big pushes are at speed. <EG> In your road car it takes forever for the tires to exceed there limit once they start. With the high tech compounds it gets away so fast that some days you wonder if you should be doing this at all. > > I gotta get my hands on a copy of STCC 2 also. EB never heard > > of it. > > If the place where I got it has some more I'd be glad to get you a copy. Say > the word. WORD > Jan. > =--- -- Mark Jeangerard

Yes I Can & I Did!! :-) "mark jeangerard" wrote: | You can't just come in here and say<snipp'ed'ed'ed> --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.259 / Virus Database: 130 - Release Date: 6/5/2001

mark jeangerard wrote... > <snip> > I'm starting to get the feeling that computer screens don't cater > well to different occular dispossitions. I get no sense of speed > whatsoever. Very strange indeed, but it's got to be something like that. We're not bullshitting eachother as to how we experience the games, so it must something on the physical/optical level. > > <snip> > How's this for funny. I can't sit straight on for SBK2001. > (Another 300 laps or so and I'll be ready to race online. > Using a Dual Strike and just starting to get natural.) Always happy to serve as cannonfodder when you do ;-) > > > <snip> > Where's that MPG? Miles Per Gallon??... surprising low, actually. On the trip (Belgian/German border - 5 laps of the Nordschleife - Belgian/German border) we averaged 43mpg (that's UK gallon, BTW, don't know how many litres an US gallon is). Got a sneaking suspicion that's not what you meant though... ;-) > > <snip> > I find race cars infinitely easier to drive than road cars. so true... I can understand why many RL racers do hardly any "every day driving" themselves.

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > <snip> > That is my primary point. In other games you can tell how violently > you've chucked it. I'm not sure how they've managed to transmit > this in the others but GPL is way down the road. I suspect the > perspective and sense of speed bits. I suspect the dynamic cockpit > is the #1 contributer to those problems. But you've heard all about > that. :-)

Hehehee... have I ever!! ;-) > > <snip> > Just kidding. :-) 5'10" and we have a car. If the car is substandard > I'll get something a little more substantial for the Nordschleife. That's about my size, so the 318 Compact is just about an option. You'll be a little cramped, but it's got good power to weight and RWD. > > <snip> > It's not really a matter of where I am on the track as it is how I > look at the track at speed. Strictly perspective and strictly Kaemmer. > SBK is a good example of realistic perspective. I wish I could put a > GPL car on those tracks. Do you use the rider view or the gas tank view? I use the rider view and indeed find it easy to pick my line with... now if I could actually get the bike to go where I'm looking I might get somewhere. ;-) > > <snip> > Once again, the old eyeball comes into play. I wonder how the game > makers who everyone likes do it. We could ask Milestone, but I doubt whether they'd take us seriously. > > <snip> > Weird. I read GP3 almost perfectly. Games will get better, but GP3 > is very satisfying to me. I know... frustratingly aware of it, in fact. ;-) > > <snip> > I was referring to the depth of the tires. I find GP3 to be the best > at comunicating what the tires are doing. They have more color than > any other sim. If you know what I mean. GP3 is the one that closed > the door on GPL for me. From here on out we are going to see some > really nice driving games. Not sure I understand... do you actually go by the graphical representation of the tyres in GP3 when you say "color", or are you talking feel? > > <snip> > Because that's the way big pushes are at speed. <EG> In your road car > it takes forever for the tires to exceed there limit once they start. > With the high tech compounds it gets away so fast that some days you > wonder if you should be doing this at all. LOL.. very true, but you don't understand... not only did I not see the understeer coming, I didn't notice it happening until the car hopped the outside curb. I was fully expecting it to follow my intented line, but the game failed to communicate (or I failed to understand) it was never going to happen. > > > <snip> > > If the place where I got it has some more I'd be glad to get you > > a copy. Say the word. > > WORD Consider it done. Bit swamped at the moment, but I'm sure I can swing bye the store sometime next week. Jan. =---

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5O0X6.41200$[email hidden]... > Very strange indeed, but it's got to be something like that. We're not > bullshitting eachother as to how we experience the games, so it must > something on the physical/optical level. That would explain how 40 people could sit in a room with GPL for 3 years and all agree that it was good enough to sell. I still think the dynamic cockpit stinks though. How did you like the static cockpit? > > How's this for funny. I can't sit straight on for SBK2001. > > (Another 300 laps or so and I'll be ready to race online. > > Using a Dual Strike and just starting to get natural.) > > Always happy to serve as cannonfodder when you do ;-) It'll be a crash fest for sure. I'm terribly slow when I'm steady. Are you using any helps at all. I was running at the amateur level when I had extra brake power at 50% (the lowest setting). Now that I turned it off (the last help I was using) I've gone right back to rookie. And fighting to stay with them. I need bars and a throttle grip. > Miles Per Gallon??... surprising low, actually. On the trip (Belgian/German > border - 5 laps of the Nordschleife - Belgian/German border) we averaged > 43mpg (that's UK gallon, BTW, don't know how many litres an US gallon is). > > Got a sneaking suspicion that's not what you meant though... ;-) 43 miles per gallon is unheard of here. Is that average? Or were you on a moped. You hear stories of the big oil companies killing off carburetor designers and stuff. I wonder if we average the same monthly gas bill, you know, price difference and what not. > > Just kidding. :-) 5'10" and we have a car. If the car is substandard > > I'll get something a little more substantial for the Nordschleife. > > That's about my size, so the 318 Compact is just about an option. You'll be > a little cramped, but it's got good power to weight and RWD. RWD is the only legitimate auto design. Or as Derek Bell once said, "As god intended." I just hope I'm ready for a BMW. I sold my last 2002tii in 84 or something because I was sick of the BMW yaw. Drove a few since then and have had no change of heart. A 911 might be fairly pricey... I know this sounds vulgar but, do you see many Chevrolet Camaros in the rental lots over there? I know they are heavy and tail happy but I have a lot of experience. I can do some serious damage with a Z28 or IROC.

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > It's not really a matter of where I am on the track as it is how I > > look at the track at speed. Strictly perspective and strictly Kaemmer. > > SBK is a good example of realistic perspective. I wish I could put a > > GPL car on those tracks. > > Do you use the rider view or the gas tank view? I use the rider view and > indeed find it easy to pick my line with... now if I could actually get the > bike to go where I'm looking I might get somewhere. ;-)

I'm using F6. F5 (what you are calling gas tank view?) is too low for me and I can't see far enough ahead. I like F7 once in a while just for the rush of the curb going by but I can't aim the thing worth a crap in F7. I'm having a hard time with the slow corners but found a rake/trail setting yesterday that's helping a lot. The chicken at Sugo is a bitch. > > Once again, the old eyeball comes into play. I wonder how the game > > makers who everyone likes do it. > > We could ask Milestone, but I doubt whether they'd take us seriously. Who? > > Weird. I read GP3 almost perfectly. Games will get better, but GP3 > > is very satisfying to me. > > I know... frustratingly aware of it, in fact. ;-) You should be happy, my new video card is kicking my ass in GP3. Can't get it to function right. :-(

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > I was referring to the depth of the tires. I find GP3 to be the best > > at comunicating what the tires are doing. They have more color than > > any other sim. If you know what I mean. GP3 is the one that closed > > the door on GPL for me. From here on out we are going to see some > > really nice driving games. > > Not sure I understand... do you actually go by the graphical representation > of the tyres in GP3 when you say "color", or are you talking feel?

I don't look at the front tires much. I'm aware of them I'm sure, but couldn't tell you what they are doing graphically. The first thing I noticed in GP3 was that I could feel when the car went from mechanical to aero. When it's mechanical it feels very much like my kart, agile but light over the road. The aero gives it a supernatural grip but also takes away some of the liveliness of the car. It's less likely to slide in a warm and comforting manner. The next thing I noticed was that I could feel when one or both of the front wheels went light. Halleluiah! Been waiting for that in sim for a long time. I'm having a little bit of a hard time feeling which of the rear wheels is light but can usually figure it out by thinking about what has happened. I can feel the rears pushing when I accelerate and can tell when they are starting to spin by their pushing less and I can tell to the pound how much braking pressure I have on each of the fronts, and the rears as a single entity. I can tell when the tires are under, on, and over at all times. I can make the car rotate slightly in a drift, under braking, coasting, or power, or I can drive it sideways. In GPL the only things I can feel are under, way over, and overheated. The overheated tire doesn't actually act like a greasy tire, but after a while I can usually reason out that it's hot. Also, the GPL tire "feels" like it's sliding when it is not. So I can't actually tell the transition to 'over'. In GP3, when the car is sideways I can tell how much grip is available and I can tell when it changes and when it's just about to go over or come back. Very important! The lateral indications in GP3 are great. So you see what I mean when I say "color". I meant depth of simulation. And when I say simulation I don't mean the numbers of physics specifically but rather in the gamers sense, so physics, GUI, psycho acoustic,... everything. If sims were stereos then GP2 is mono, GPL is mono A plus phase incoherence B, and GP3 is 5.1. BTW, My sound levels are engine 70%, tires 80%, specials 100%. I do not "feel" any weight to the car but I do know what aspects of weighting the game is projecting to me. And they seem very accurate to real life. I GPL I do feel weight, but the signals are all wrong so I have to adjust my instincts to the particulars of the game. Besides that, I can tell how fast I am going to within a few mph and I know *exactly* where I am on the track. Two virtues that without, I can not call it a sim.

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > Because that's the way big pushes are at speed. <EG> In your road car > > it takes forever for the tires to exceed there limit once they start. > > With the high tech compounds it gets away so fast that some days you > > wonder if you should be doing this at all. > > LOL.. very true, but you don't understand... not only did I not see the > understeer coming, I didn't notice it happening until the car hopped the > outside curb. I was fully expecting it to follow my intented line, but the > game failed to communicate (or I failed to understand) it was never going to > happen.

I'm not trying to say that GP3 is perfect and I really don't know, intimately, the situation you are talking about but I've had those. I've had pushes where you see it coming and wait it out and go on your merry way. I had the ones that you don't see coming but it comes back into your hands while you're still on the black stuff and you go on your merry way. Then I've had the ones where you think you're on your merry way and next thing you know you're flicking gravel out of your collar. The only way I can explain it is that racing vehicles accumulate a lot of speed very quickly and racing tires have unbelievable grip and if you lay into in a manner and place in which you shouldn't and/or are unaware of what you are doing then the vehicle is likely to do something that may well catch you by surprise when the tires finally give up. I have had that in GP3 and as far as I can tell it seemed pretty real. I've also had the other two pushes and they were recognizable too.

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > > > <snip> > > > If the place where I got it has some more I'd be glad to get you > > > a copy. Say the word. > > > > WORD > > Consider it done. Bit swamped at the moment, but I'm sure I can swing bye > the store sometime next week. > > Jan.

Gggggggggg.......... Thank you kindly sir. Name you price. (Or potion - seen the Randall speed trucks for skateboards yet?) :-) -- Mark Jeangerard

mark jeangerard wrote... > <snip> > That would explain how 40 people could sit in a room > with GPL for 3 years and all agree that it was good > enough to sell. I still think the dynamic cockpit > stinks though. How did you like the static cockpit? Well, might not be perfect, but I'd given up on simracing for lenght if not for GPL, so I'm glad they did.<g> Have to admit I haven't tried your latest, but in the past I have not been able to get either your or Greg's creations to work. That said, I don't really feel the need for improvement in this area. > > > <snip> > It'll be a crash fest for sure. I'm terribly slow when > I'm steady. Are you using any helps at all. I was running > at the amateur level when I had extra brake power at 50% > (the lowest setting). I only use auto rider movement to offset my lack of coordination. > Now that I turned it off (the last help I was using) I've > gone right back to rookie. And fighting to stay with them. > I need bars and a throttle grip. When racing the AI, I have trouble keeping ahead of the rookies as well. Like I've said before: the only thing holding this sim back is the inaccessibility of it's controls. IMO it is disproportionately hard to ride slowly. > > <snip> > 43 miles per gallon is unheard of here. Is that average? > Or were you on a moped. You hear stories of the big oil > companies killing off carburetor designers and stuff. I > wonder if we average the same monthly gas bill, you know, > price difference and what not. Like I said, UK gallon... did a search and found the US gallon is only about 0.8 of the UK gallon, i.e. using US gallon that would equate to just under 36 miles per gallon. Which is pretty amazing as in every day traffic I usually only get 29 miles per gallon (calculated to US gallons). I do very little miles in my car... I've owned it for nearly 4 years now and am at 12900 miles. Gas is $4,35 per gallon here. That should give you an idea of the cost per mile in our respective countries (excercise left up to the reader ;-)). > > > <snip> > RWD is the only legitimate auto design. Or as Derek Bell > once said, "As god intended." I just hope I'm ready for a > BMW. I sold my last 2002tii in 84 or something because I > was sick of the BMW yaw. Drove a few since then and have > had no change of heart. From an image perspective I don't care much for Beamers eithers, but I can attest from experience the 525i (the company I work for keeps one as a company car) is a very nice car to drive. As indicated before, I have not actively explored the limits of it's performance envelope though. > A 911 might be fairly pricey... I know this sounds vulgar > but, do you see many Chevrolet Camaros in the rental lots > over there? I would be amazed if Camaros were actually for sale here, let alone for rent actually. What might be available and not a bad choice at all is the Seat Leon (hot hatch). 911's... would depend on the model and the year it was built, but they're generally seen as exclusive. I'm considering one as my next car, probably 2nd hand as I find current models to somehow lack soul. > I know they are heavy and tail happy but I have a lot of > experience. I can do some serious damage with a Z28 or > IROC. I can see how they might suit you.

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > <snip> > I'm using F6. F5 (what you are calling gas tank view?) is too > low for me and I can't see far enough ahead. I like F7 once in > a while just for the rush of the curb going by but I can't aim > the thing worth a crap in F7. I'm having a hard time with the > slow corners but found a rake/trail setting yesterday that's > helping a lot. The chicken at Sugo is a bitch.

I don't care much for the final one at Kyalami either... a complete pig to get right, even on the Suzuki. Using F6 view here too. F7 is the gas tank view I was talking about as that's relative to the bike, not the rider. Wouldn't know what to call F5 view (wide angle rider view??). I don't use F5 as, like you say, depth perception is very hard in that mode. > > > <snip> > > We could ask Milestone, but I doubt whether they'd take us > > seriously. > > Who? SBK2001 developer. > > > <snip> > You should be happy, my new video card is kicking my ass in > GP3. Can't get it to function right. :-( Look at it this way... I've yet to see the better side of 1m22s at modern Nurburg. ;-(

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > > <snip> > I don't look at the front tires much. I'm aware of them I'm > sure, but couldn't tell you what they are doing graphically. > The first thing I noticed in GP3 was that I could feel when > the car went from mechanical to aero. When it's mechanical > it feels very much like my kart, agile but light over the > road. The aero gives it a supernatural grip but also takes > away some of the liveliness of the car. It's less likely to > slide in a warm and comforting manner. The next thing I > noticed was that I could feel when one or both of the front > wheels went light. Halleluiah! Been waiting for that in sim > for a long time.

I get a better sense of that in GPL, but you already knew that. Prey continue..

Quoted text (7 lines)

> I'm having a little bit of a hard time feeling which of the > rear wheels is light but can usually figure it out by thinking > about what has happened. I can feel the rears pushing when I > accelerate and can tell when they are starting to spin by their > pushing less and I can tell to the pound how much braking > pressure I have on each of the fronts, and the rears as a single > entity.

There is that... the fronts communicate their state of braking very well. I have very little feel for the rear, both under accelleration and braking. I just tend to thrown wing and dampers at it until it stays planted most of the time, taking care the car as a whole still turns in. I'm *having* to trail some corners at Nurburg to do so, which is a new experience for me. But it's either that or loose it in that <censored> chichane near the end of the lap. On the whole things are a lot better in the rain for me... as if the changes in grip are more clear, less drowned out than in dry conditions. > I can tell when the tires are under, on, and over at all times. > I can make the car rotate slightly in a drift, under braking, > coasting, or power, or I can drive it sideways. Amazing... could you possibly experiment with FF and see whether it kills these sensations or not? > In GPL the only things I can feel are under, way over, and > overheated. The overheated tire doesn't actually act like a > greasy tire, but after a while I can usually reason out that > it's hot. Also, the GPL tire "feels" like it's sliding when > it is not. So I can't actually tell the transition to 'over'. Even Randy Cassidy admits the tyre model in GPL is not *that* hot. <g>

Quoted text (8 lines)

> In GP3, when the car is sideways I can tell how much grip > is available and I can tell when it changes and when it's > just about to go over or come back. Very important! The > lateral indications in GP3 are great. So you see what I > mean when I say "color". I meant depth of simulation. And > when I say simulation I don't mean the numbers of physics > specifically but rather in the gamers sense, so physics, > GUI, psycho acoustic,... everything.

I know what you mean and I don't think you're imagining things, but it's just not there for me. > If sims were stereos then GP2 is mono, GPL is mono A plus > phase incoherence B, and GP3 is 5.1. You've just every non-musician in the group, including me. ;-) > BTW, My sound levels are engine 70%, tires 80%, specials 100%. That's different from mine... I'll try that.

Quoted text (28 lines)

> I do not "feel" any weight to the car but I do know what > aspects of weighting the game is projecting to me. And they > seem very accurate to real life. I GPL I do feel weight, but > the signals are all wrong so I have to adjust my instincts > to the particulars of the game. > > Besides that, I can tell how fast I am going to within a few > mph and I know *exactly* where I am on the track. Two virtues > that without, I can not call it a sim. > > > <snip> > I'm not trying to say that GP3 is perfect and I really don't > know, intimately, the situation you are talking about but > I've had those. I've had pushes where you see it coming and > wait it out and go on your merry way. I had the ones that you > don't see coming but it comes back into your hands while > you're still on the black stuff and you go on your merry way. > Then I've had the ones where you think you're on your merry > way and next thing you know you're flicking gravel out of > your collar. The only way I can explain it is that racing > vehicles accumulate a lot of speed very quickly and racing > tires have unbelievable grip and if you lay into in a manner > and place in which you shouldn't and/or are unaware of what > you are doing then the vehicle is likely to do something that > may well catch you by surprise when the tires finally give up. > I have had that in GP3 and as far as I can tell it seemed > pretty real. I've also had the other two pushes and they were > recognizable too.

GP3 is beginning to get to hectic for me, true. Trouble is one can hardly arrange ones life to be mentally "sharper than usual" when one *has* to do a simulated race. Just not on. I get stressed, I get tired and GP3 is not relaxation at the moment (as I'm struggling to be "only" 5 seconds slower than others). > > > <snip> > Gggggggggg.......... Thank you kindly sir. Name you price. > (Or potion - seen the Randall speed trucks for skateboards > yet?) :-) Don't mention it. Can't say that I have (seen those).... in fact, what are they? Jan. =---

Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:G9_X6.1851$[email hidden]... > Well, might not be perfect, but I'd given up on simracing for lenght if not > for GPL, so I'm glad they did.<g> I still remember my first online race. Cotton mouth at the S/F. Twitchy thottle foot. CPR was great. <EG> GPL too.... > Have to admit I haven't tried your latest, but in the past I have not been > able to get either your or Greg's creations to work. That said, I don't > really feel the need for improvement in this area. But if you haven't tried it? How would you like to drive GPL with all the feel and awareness that you have of the front end of a GP3 car? Not only that! But the rear end is that good too. If GPL had a static cockpit I'd say it was better than GP3. (As a driving sim.) It seems like any well versed GPL guru could disconnect it. They just don't know that they should. They should. > I only use auto rider movement to offset my lack of coordination. Oh yeah. I use that too. Mapped to my controller, completely unsuable. > When racing the AI, I have trouble keeping ahead of the rookies as well. > Like I've said before: the only thing holding this sim back is the > inaccessibility of it's controls. IMO it is disproportionately hard to ride > slowly. Unfortunately, the helps, help. But then it's just too much, I don't know... you're still using your skill at picking a line and stuff.... but you're not *riding* the bike.

Quoted text (8 lines)

> Like I said, UK gallon... did a search and found the US gallon is only about > 0.8 of the UK gallon, i.e. using US gallon that would equate to just under > 36 miles per gallon. Which is pretty amazing as in every day traffic I > usually only get 29 miles per gallon (calculated to US gallons). I do very > little miles in my car... I've owned it for nearly 4 years now and am at > 12900 miles. Gas is $4,35 per gallon here. That should give you an idea of > the cost per mile in our respective countries (excercise left up to the > reader ;-)).

Still... in the 4 cylinder I'm getting 20 mpg. The 6s and 8 are much worse. > From an image perspective I don't care much for Beamers eithers, but I can > attest from experience the 525i (the company I work for keeps one as a > company car) is a very nice car to drive. As indicated before, I have not > actively explored the limits of it's performance envelope though. I think I've driven one of those. It has all the features, and it's no Ford by any means. (Ford being the one auto make that I won't even get in. No matter who's driving.) But it's got that BMW feel. I like low and tight better. > I would be amazed if Camaros were actually for sale here, let alone for rent > actually. What might be available and not a bad choice at all is the Seat > Leon (hot hatch). 911's... would depend on the model and the year it was > built, but they're generally seen as exclusive. I'm considering one as my > next car, probably 2nd hand as I find current models to somehow lack soul. Seat Leon - check. I think I know what you mean about the Porsches. I haven't driven any newer models, but they look funny. The last great looking one was a 94 or 96 (can't remember) in my opinion. The newest 911 I've driven is an 87. I've also driven late 70's through that and a 912. If you get a used one, read up on the rear suspension because I can tell you right now - A loose 911 is the scariest thing you will ever drive. (Besides a Ford that is.) The 87 was much better than the 79, but you'd better have lightning quick reflexes when you get that thing pitched. I shit my pants the first time I got a 930 sideways and never actually got used to it. I hear they've got it fixed. If you've got some dough, go get a Ferrari. > > I know they are heavy and tail happy but I have a lot of > > experience. I can do some serious damage with a Z28 or > > IROC. > > I can see how they might suit you. Oh you can, can you? :-) I don't like 'em. One day I had like 5 spins in my 94Z and that was it. I'd had enough of the whole front engine thing. I wanted a mid or rear engine so bad that I drove by a dealer, saw the 87 Fiero, drove it around 4 corners and told the guy to write up the papers, he was getting a Camaro real cheap like. I traded straight across. That's how fed up I was. Still love the Fiero. Great car. Wish I could afford a Ferrari. But anyway, I bought Camaros because you can get a lot of ponies for not too much dough. So, I'm used to them. Nothing more. :-) > I don't care much for the final one at Kyalami either... a complete pig to > get right, even on the Suzuki. Using F6 view here too. F7 is the gas tank > view I was talking about as that's relative to the bike, not the rider. > Wouldn't know what to call F5 view (wide angle rider view??). I don't use F5 > as, like you say, depth perception is very hard in that mode. So... the Suzuki handles good eh? Must test.... > SBK2001 developer. Oooh... those guys are goooood. > Look at it this way... I've yet to see the better side of 1m22s at modern > Nurburg. ;-( Yikes.... > I get a better sense of that (lightness) in GPL, but you already knew that. Prey > continue.. Without FF too?

Quoted text (7 lines)

> There is that... the fronts communicate their state of braking very well. I > have very little feel for the rear, both under accelleration and braking. I > just tend to thrown wing and dampers at it until it stays planted most of > the time, taking care the car as a whole still turns in. I'm *having* to > trail some corners at Nurburg to do so, which is a new experience for me. > But it's either that or loose it in that <censored> chichane near the end of > the lap.

I started taking the chicken really late, clipping both curbs, trailing throttle in, neutral to the second curb, and easy throttle out. I don't know if it's quicker but I get to the end more often. Plus, a late line helps avoid over shooting the infield and getting that damned ten second flag. I also put more front bump dampers and springs. Seemed to help. I think trail braking may help at the Ring as it influences rounder lines. Whenever I get it in too hot I seem to get better times there. I'm really impressed with this track. Very hard. Had a ferocious race with Ralf today. Probably 10 passes in 10 laps. And those 116 guys can go rot. > On the whole things are a lot better in the rain for me... as if the changes > in grip are more clear, less drowned out than in dry conditions. That's interesting. Is it possibly the tire sound? > Amazing... could you possibly experiment with FF and see whether it kills > these sensations or not? You know, I think EB has FF wheels. Let me look around. > I know what you mean and I don't think you're imagining things, but it's > just not there for me. I bet if one of us showed up at the others house we'd go, "Ohhhhhh, I seee.... the monitor is facing north and the speakers are made of cheese." Or some such voodoo. > > If sims were stereos then GP2 is mono, GPL is mono A plus > > phase incoherence B, and GP3 is 5.1. > > You've just every non-musician in the group, including me. ;-) Musicians don't know that kind of thing. Hell, they don't even know what town they're in. > GP3 is beginning to get to hectic for me, true. Trouble is one can hardly > arrange ones life to be mentally "sharper than usual" when one *has* to do a > simulated race. Just not on. I get stressed, I get tired and GP3 is not > relaxation at the moment (as I'm struggling to be "only" 5 seconds slower > than others). Ooooh. I know that one. I had that in GP2 and GPL. Went away in GPL, for the most part. I absolutely relish the races in GP3. CPR too. (You may taunt me a second taahmma.) > Don't mention it. Can't say that I have (seen those).... in fact, what are > they? > > Jan. > =--- Skateboard trucks that don't wobble. You can have them so loose that you can turn a 56 inch board around on a sidewalk by turning, not sliding, and still go 50 mph. That means twisty mountain roads are more accessible than ever. Quite fun. Want a pair? -- Mark

mark jeangerard wrote... > I still remember my first online race. Cotton mouth at > the S/F. Twitchy throttle foot. CPR was great. <EG> It was, poor FF kills the magic though. > GPL too.... My first race was with Greg at Kyalami... he kept having to wait for me. Must have bored him to tears. ;-) I had one previous attempt with F1RS... the TV style run-down of the grid sent my heartrate over 160... then I disco'd ;-) > > <snip> > But if you haven't tried it? How would you like to drive > GPL with all the feel and awareness that you have of the > front end of a GP3 car. Eh... no. As, in comparison to normal GPL that would suck. <g> Just kidding, I see what you mean. I'll give it a go whe n things cool down over here. > Not only that! But the rear end is that good too. If GPL > had a static cockpit I'd say it was better than GP3. (As > a driving sim. It seems like any well versed GPL guru > could disconnect it. They just don't know that they > should. They should. They just don't want to make you any faster than you already are.

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > <snip> > Oh yeah. I use that too. Mapped to my controller, > completely unsuable. > > <snip> > Unfortunately, the helps, help. But then it's just too > much, I don't know... you're still using your skill at > picking a line and stuff.... but you're not *riding* the > bike.

Haven't tried with helps on yet... it's a pride thing. <g> > > <snip> > Still... in the 4 cylinder I'm getting 20 mpg. The 6s > and 8 are much worse. I would consider that acceptable... just. > > <snip> > I think I've driven one of those. It has all the features, > and it's no Ford by any means. (Ford being the one auto > make that I won't even get in. No matter who's driving.) > But it's got that BMW feel. I like low and tight better. True... it's well spec'd. I really like the cruise control feature. Frees up a lot of attention when motorway driving. Have you driven any of the European Ford models? -Ok, they're transport, but they're not any worse than the Nissan I drive (except being more expensive).

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > <snip> > Seat Leon - check. I think I know what you mean about the > Porsches. I haven't driven any newer models, but they look > funny. The last great looking one was a 94 or 96 (can't > remember) in my opinion. The newest 911 I've driven is an > 87. I've also driven late 70's through that and a 912. If > you get a used one, read up on the rear suspension because > I can tell you right now - A loose 911 is the scariest > thing you will ever drive. (Besides a Ford that is.) The > 87 was much better than the 79, but you'd better have > lightning quick reflexes when you get that thing pitched. > I shit my pants the first time I got a 930 sideways and > never actually got used to it. I hear they've got it > fixed. If you've got some dough, go get a Ferrari.

Haven't driven many Porsches... a 944, but that hardly counts, does it? > > > <snip> > > I can see how they might suit you. > > Oh you can, can you? :-) Dang... too obvious, he's not taking the bait. You know me too well Mark. ;-)

Quoted text (15 lines)

> I don't like 'em. One day I had like 5 spins in my 94Z > and that was it. I'd had enough of the whole front engine > thing. I wanted a mid or rear engine so bad that I drove > by a dealer, saw the 87 Fiero, drove it around 4 corners > and told the guy to write up the papers, he was getting a > Camaro real cheap like. I traded straight across. > That's how fed up I was. Still love the Fiero. Great car. > Wish I could afford a Ferrari. > But anyway, I bought Camaros because you can get a lot of > ponies for not too much dough. So, I'm used to them. > Nothing more. :-) > > <snip> > So... the Suzuki handles good eh? Must test....

Smoothest by a margin, IMO. > > SBK2001 developer. > > Oooh... those guys are goooood. Very talented bunch indeed. > > <snip> > > I get a better sense of that (lightness) in GPL, but > > you already knew that. Prey continue.. > > Without FF too? I can't even remember what sims used to be like without FF. I'm definately an FF-junkie.

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > <snip> > I started taking the chicken really late, clipping both > curbs, trailing throttle in, neutral to the second curb, > and easy throttle out. I don't know if it's quicker but > I get to the end more often. Plus, a late line helps > avoid over shooting the infield and getting that damned > ten second flag. I also put more front bump dampers and > springs. Seemed to help. I think trail braking may help > at the Ring as it influences rounder lines. Whenever I > get it in too hot I seem to get better times there. I'm > really impressed with this track. Very hard. Had a > ferocious race with Ralf today. Probably 10 passes in 10 > laps.

Yes, it is a very nice track and thanks for the hints. Totally swamped by work at the moment though and doubtfull whether I can submit anything at all. > And those 116 guys can go rot. Eh? > > On the whole things are a lot better in the rain for me... > > as if the changes in grip are more clear, less drowned out > > than in dry conditions. > > That's interesting. Is it possibly the tire sound? I don't know... perhaps it's the lower threshold. I'd need more *time* to figure this stuff out. Settings/driving/setup... too much to cram into a couple hours per fortnight. > > <snip> > > You know, I think EB has FF wheels. Let me look around. ok. > > <snip> > I bet if one of us showed up at the others house we'd go, > "Ohhhhhh, I seee.... the monitor is facing north and the > speakers are made of cheese." Or some such voodoo. Greg and myself couldn't drive to save our lives on eachothers rig. He did manage to teach me how to really do powered drifts though... > > > <snip> > > You've just every non-musician in the group, including > > me. ;-) > > Musicians don't know that kind of thing. Hell, they don't > even know what town they're in. Just learned 5.1 is some sort of surround sound thingy. Or do I look even dumber now?

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > <snip> > Ooooh. I know that one. I had that in GP2 and GPL. Went > away in GPL, for the most part. I absolutely relish the > races in GP3. CPR too. (You may taunt me a second taahmma.) > > > <snip> > Skateboard trucks that don't wobble. You can have them so > loose that you can turn a 56 inch board around on a sidewalk > by turning, not sliding, and still go 50 mph. That means > twisty mountain roads are more accessible than ever. Quite > fun. Want a pair?

Er... still not sure what they are, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to use them. So... thanks for the offer, but no. Relax and enjoy while I think of something diabolical. ;-) Jan. =---

It was, poor FF kills the magic though. My first race was with Greg at Kyalami... he kept having to wait for me. Must have bored him to tears. ;-) I had one previous attempt with F1RS... the TV style run-down of the grid sent my heartrate over 160... then I disco'd ;-) Eh... no. As, in comparison to normal GPL that would suck. <g> Just kidding, I see what you mean. I'll give it a go whe n things cool down over here. They just don't want to make you any faster than you already are. Haven't tried with helps on yet... it's a pride thing. <g> I would consider that acceptable... just. True... it's well spec'd. I really like the cruise control feature. Frees up a lot of attention when motorway driving. Have you driven any of the European Ford models? -Ok, they're transport, but they're not any worse than the Nissan I drive (except being more expensive). Haven't driven many Porsches... a 944, but that hardly counts, does it? Dang... too obvious, he's not taking the bait. You know me too well Mark. ;-) Smoothest by a margin, IMO. Very talented bunch indeed. I can't even remember what sims used to be like without FF. I'm definately an FF-junkie. Yes, it is a very nice track and thanks for the hints. Totally swamped by work at the moment though and doubtfull whether I can submit anything at all. Eh? I don't know... perhaps it's the lower threshold. I'd need more *time* to figure this stuff out. Settings/driving/setup... too much to cram into a couple hours per fortnight. ok. Greg and myself couldn't drive to save our lives on eachothers rig. He did manage to teach me how to really do powered drifts though... Just learned 5.1 is some sort of surround sound thingy. Or do I look even dumber now? Er... still not sure what they are, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to use them. So... thanks for the offer, but no. Relax and enjoy while I think of something diabolical. ;-) Jan. =---

Heard from Greg lately? He's the one who cracked the Smiley code. AND invented RennerVision. Don't he have a wheel yet? Stay away from RennerVision. You can't use it online and it will just piss you off that it's not normally like that. Not sure about the 944. My sister had a 924 and it counted... as a Nissan. The 116 guys are the same bunch who are doing 113s at Magny. They can still go rot. Please explain how you do powered drifts. Ding - Ding! 5.1 is a surround convention developed by Dolby Labs. ...and, just so you know, everybody can use a skateboard. -- Mark Jeangerard

"mark jeangerard" wrote... > Heard from Greg lately? He's the one who cracked the > Smiley code. AND invented RennerVision. Don't he have > a wheel yet? Hmmm no... got a feeling he wants to break away from simracing... either that or he still hasn't got a job and doesn't dare face us. ;-) > Stay away from RennerVision. You can't use it online > and it will just piss you off that it's not normally > like that. Didn't know it existed and now that I do, I can't say I feel the urge to try. > Not sure about the 944. My sister had a 924 and it > counted... as a Nissan. It's a nice grand touring sportscar(944S). Pretty bulletproof as well. I could live with one. > The 116 guys are the same bunch who are doing 113s at > Magny. They can still go rot. Aaaahh!! <loud clattering sound of *big* penny dropping> Seconded... > Please explain how you do powered drifts. It's a combination of setup, approach, timing and a bit of luck. As you well know, the idea is to start releasing the steering a little early while progressively getting on the throttle, so as to balance on the thin line between swapping ends and running out of road. Using the power to straighten up the car because the steering input is insufficient to "complete" the turn, as it were. A bit like this actually: http://users.pandora.be/jan..verschueren./small_drift.zip (79kB) note the small tweak of the steering to keep it on the black stuff near the end of the turn.<g> Greg made me do Lesmo2 over and over while commanding me how to drive. Once I managed one, I knew how to reproduce it. Not saying I'm good at it, but I do try to incorporate it more and more into my driving. Must be nice to have this sort of stuff come naturally. ;-( Having looked at it again a couple times, I must admit there's not a whole lot of feedback (other than the FF) when one's doing this. I have to be "there" and have a rythm going (i.e. immersed) to even attempt this and I can't really explain how I "feel it", I just do. On this occasion the rear end really "dug in" nicely and I had complete confidence of being propelled down the straight. > Ding - Ding! 5.1 is a surround convention developed by Dolby Labs. Phew! > ...and, just so you know, everybody can use a > skateboard. ... as a doorstop, no doubt. ;-) Seriously Mark, I have been peer pressured into using skateboards and never enjoyed one minute of it. I suck and I hate it. As opposed to mountainbiking (and simracing): I suck, but I enjoy it. ;-) Jan. =---