Elevation changes/bumpy tracks

For the collective RAS wisdom- I have noticed that many times in racing games, particularly F1, the sensation of elevation changes are more obvious when watching on television than when you are driving in a game, especially when using the cockpit view. I was wondering if it is because when you are in the car everything becomes relative and things seem to flatten out (seems that way during races on tv when using in-car cams too), or is it harder to create dramatic elevation changes? Also, when watching open wheel racing, often the CART street courses are called "bumpy", and I was wondering if any games do this well. Or do you think that more vibration is annoying rather then immersive? Tim

Odd Tim?? Most of the sims I run I see the up-down over-under & really feel the bumps [via FF wheel] What sims do you run that look "flat'ish?" I have a few like this but not many... I have had this ever since Micropose World Circuit.. This has been awhile too...lol Thom_j. "Tim" wrote:

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| For the collective RAS wisdom- | | I have noticed that many times in racing games, particularly F1, the | sensation of elevation changes are more obvious when watching on | television than when you are driving in a game, especially when using | the cockpit view. I was wondering if it is because when you are in the | car everything becomes relative and things seem to flatten out (seems | that way during races on tv when using in-car cams too), or is it | harder to create dramatic elevation changes? | | Also, when watching open wheel racing, often the CART street courses | are called "bumpy", and I was wondering if any games do this well. Or | do you think that more vibration is annoying rather then immersive? | | Tim

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.259 / Virus Database: 130 - Release Date: 6/5/2001

The 'bumpiest' tracks that I'm aware of are the SCGT and F1cs tracks. The papyrus tracks seem to model elevation better but not the smaller bumps. Best overall tracks...(sorry folks to beat this dead cow again) are the AMA Superbike tracks...not the prettiest but they really have the accuracy down. dave henrie "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:C08X6.20286$[email hidden]...

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> Odd Tim?? Most of the sims I run I see the up-down over-under & > really feel the bumps [via FF wheel] What sims do you run that look > "flat'ish?" I have a few like this but not many... > I have had this ever since Micropose World Circuit.. This has been > awhile too...lol Thom_j. > > "Tim" wrote: > | For the collective RAS wisdom- > | > | I have noticed that many times in racing games, particularly F1, the > | sensation of elevation changes are more obvious when watching on > | television than when you are driving in a game, especially when using > | the cockpit view. I was wondering if it is because when you are in the > | car everything becomes relative and things seem to flatten out (seems > | that way during races on tv when using in-car cams too), or is it > | harder to create dramatic elevation changes? > | > | Also, when watching open wheel racing, often the CART street courses > | are called "bumpy", and I was wondering if any games do this well. Or > | do you think that more vibration is annoying rather then immersive? > | > | Tim > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.259 / Virus Database: 130 - Release Date: 6/5/2001 > >

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:H78X6.192431$[email hidden]... > The 'bumpiest' tracks that I'm aware of are the SCGT and F1cs tracks.The > papyrus tracks seem to model elevation better but not the smaller bumps. > Best overall tracks...(sorry folks to beat this dead cow again) are theAMA > Superbike tracks...not the prettiest but they really have the accuracydown. > dave henrie I've always gotten the feeling that the AMA tracks used a pallete that makes things look like a live TV feed, rather than what you would actually see. Kinda weird from a first person perspective. KFG

Dave, SBK2001 is pretty good too!! I Like It!! :-) "Dave Henrie" wrote: | The 'bumpiest' tracks that I'm aware of are the SCGT and F1cs tracks.The | papyrus tracks seem to model elevation better but not the smaller bumps. | Best overall tracks...(sorry folks to beat this dead cow again) are theAMA | Superbike tracks...not the prettiest but they really have the accuracydown. | dave henrie --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.259 / Virus Database: 130 - Release Date: 6/5/2001

well F1RC sure has very accurate tracks, in terms of elevation, bankings and so on, although the "bumps" could be better, but the track layout from A1 and Hockenheim is splendid, the banking in the sachs kurve is really that big.

In article <170620011123323017%[email hidden]>, Tim <[email hidden]> writes

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>For the collective RAS wisdom- > >I have noticed that many times in racing games, particularly F1, the >sensation of elevation changes are more obvious when watching on >television than when you are driving in a game, especially when using >the cockpit view. I was wondering if it is because when you are in the >car everything becomes relative and things seem to flatten out (seems >that way during races on tv when using in-car cams too), or is it >harder to create dramatic elevation changes? >

In fact I've heard many a tv commentator or track officionado at the race say that the tv pictures don't do the elevation changes justice either. They've said something like, 'It's not until you walk the track that you realise how dramatic some of these elevation changes really are.' <snip> -- Peter Ives Remove ALL_STRESS before replying If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -14.08

I remember the first time I ran down pit road in the original "Indy 500 Simulation." It really put you in the "drivers seat" when you came off of the smooth racing surface in turn four and onto the VERY bumpy pit road surface. Not that it has anything to do with anything, this thread just made me reminisce! :) Michael Loos Gasoline Alley...The Fastest Show In Radio! Nationwide Saturdays at 10:00 pm Eastern - 7:00 pm Pacific Find your local affiliate at www.GasolineAlleyOnline.net

>In fact I've heard many a tv commentator or track officionado at the >race say that the tv pictures don't do the elevation changes justice >either. They've said something like, 'It's not until you walk the track >that you realise how dramatic some of these elevation changes really >are.' When I went to Charl-uh, Lowe's Motor Speedway for the first time last month, I was amazed by how steep the banking in the corners was compared to what it looked like on TV. ----------------------------------------- Dan Belcher Team Racing Unlimited http://simcrash.00game.com

>"Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote > well F1RC sure has very accurate tracks, in terms of elevation, bankingsand > so on, although the "bumps" could be better, but the track layout from A1 > and Hockenheim is splendid, the banking in the sachs kurve is really that > big. They are still nothing compared to the tracks from AMA Superbike. I'm telling you, they are quite something. They are really THAT incredible... (and I disagree that the A1-Ring is realistic in F1RC, turn 3 is really a patch turn for the wrong accuracy of the track, it's there to adjust the elevation of the rest of the track). -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

well, sorry francois but I WAS in austria 10 days ago WITH my laptop, the game and we made a lap on the team scooter to check the accuracy of the track, it is really perfect... I was in Hockenheim in March but didn't have the game at that moment, however th Papenburg stadium is very much the same as the Hockenheim one and I've made a lap WALKING there last week-end, and the layout is once more, perfect. Never tried that supercross game you mention. "ymenard" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message news: 6jCX6.18399$[email hidden]... > >"Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote > > well F1RC sure has very accurate tracks, in terms of elevation, bankings > and > > so on, although the "bumps" could be better, but the track layout fromA1 > > and Hockenheim is splendid, the banking in the sachs kurve is reallythat

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> > big. > > > They are still nothing compared to the tracks from AMA Superbike. I'm > telling you, they are quite something. They are really THAT incredible... > (and I disagree that the A1-Ring is realistic in F1RC, turn 3 is really a > patch turn for the wrong accuracy of the track, it's there to adjust the > elevation of the rest of the track). > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.ymenard.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

>"Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote > well, sorry francois but I WAS in austria 10 days ago WITH my laptop, the > game and we made a lap on the team scooter to check the accuracy of the > track, it is really perfect... Well, I will still disagree with that, just my opinion here about Turn 3/4 (the double apex right turn) are slightly a little off, but not much. I'll completely agree with you that the rest of the track is superb. Still doesn't make for the problems the software has ;) > Never tried that supercross game you mention. AMA Superbike is the "major" American biking series in the USA. It's not really a good software, but the tracks in it (Road Atlanta, Road America, Mid-Ohio, Sears Point, Brainerd, Willow Springs, etc..) are so incredible my jaw dropped when I first tried the software. F1RC is nothing compared to them. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Elevation, banking, camber, slope......particularly on road courses....in the braking zones.....are critical to fast laps....and good race setups. As a driver, you don't get an appropriate "feel" for these elements from within the cockpit. This is because the normal "references" our brains need......are mostly absent once we put on our helmets....and climb into the cockpit (including open cockpits....but to a lesser extent only than closed cockpits). This is primarily due to the artificial horizon induced by the dashboard....reference for our eyes/brains....and the restricted peripheral vision induced by racing helmets and the race car cockpits themselves. To a very great extent.....this applies to sim racing as well as to real-world racing. And, this may be the reason we don't seem to get the same "feel and perspective" for the elevation changes....and track banking....in our sim racing as we do when visiting the real-world track for the first time. When I was running in the ESCORT Endurance Series in the late 1980's......my first year on the tour....meant I was being introduced to new race tracks almost at every event. I was a totally rookie in pro racing at the time........so I figured what I needed to do was to follow the routines used by all the veteran drivers.....to come up to race speeds when ever we began a weekend event at a new race track. The "race teams" usually began arriving at the track on Wednesdays....and the drivers usually showed up on Wednesday nights or Thursday mornings. The first "practice sessions" usually began Thursday afternoon. I noticed that you could hardly ever find any of the drivers on Wednesday night or Thursday morning.....anywhere else but out walking the track! And, the ones most dedicated drivers at doing this "walking of the track...notebook in hand.....totally alone and without distraction"......where the guys who also had the most experience at the tracks.....they were the veteran drivers........not the ones with the least experience, us rookies! That was a "lesson" for me......and I never forgot this. Not oddly......those were the same drivers who first started setting competitive lap speeds......and first dialed in their race setups.....in the early practice sessions! Everyone had different techniques for these "track walks"....as I learned to call them. And, some of the veteran drivers were better at it than others. I learned some great stuff from Peter Cunningham........a veteran driver even back in the late 80's. Peter told me that no matter how many races he'd done at a particular track......he always did the same "track walk" routine......even at tracks he'd run just a few weeks prior (in a different race series). He said (without going into great detail).....that it "reset" his mind's eye for the current track......banking, surface texture, turn camber and so forth....preparing his senses and hand/eye coordination for racing on that particular track for the next several days. He would even stop walking when ever he got into the braking zone of a turn that was at the end of a mid to high-speed straight. He'd actually carefully feel the track surface....with his bare hands.....crouched down sometimes in a crawling position on his hands and knees........particularly looking for the small stones that were uncovered from the tarmac or concrete (depending on the track surface type)....for how much the stones were ruffed...or polished from previous races. He'd note the stone surfaces....moving his initial braking markers up track (earlier) for smooth stones.....and down track (later) for rough ones....and all variations in-between. Of course, he'd also make note of the more obvious things like any new track patches that might have been laid since his last race at that track! It will be of no surprise to anyone that I tell you that Peter Cunningham was almost always the first driver....and the earliest to come up to competitive race speeds.......and he always contended for the "pole" on Friday afternoon qualifying runs. Racing sims are of course....not yet produced with that kind of detail (although I believe the day is not far off that they will be). But, there are still "lessons" to learn in this type of thing......when visiting a new sim track.....or preparing for a league race at a track you've not raced on recently. A virtual "track walk" can be done by making several slow speed (I use first gear only) laps.....from in-car, and various F-10 type views.....just to get my mind "reset" to the particular track before I start running race speed laps. This only takes a few minutes.....and I've found it to be as valuable in sim racing as it became in real-world racing for me. Some of you might think this is stupid. Well, lots of drivers thought what Pete Cunningham did was "stupid" too! You can "take or leave the lesson" for what its worth to you. Regards, Tom

Well Tom try all this on a race bike!! [dirt or road] Then you'll feel all the elevations, bumps. grooves, moggles etc..lol :-) "Tom Pabst" wrote: | Elevation, banking, camber, slope......particularly on road courses....in<snipped for space> | Pete Cunningham did was "stupid" too! You can "take or leave the lesson" | for what its worth to you. | Regards, | Tom --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.259 / Virus Database: 130 - Release Date: 6/5/2001

In article <nQLX6.103209$%[email hidden]>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Racing sims are of course....not yet produced with that kind of detail >(although I believe the day is not far off that they will be). But, there >are still "lessons" to learn in this type of thing......when visiting a new >sim track.....or preparing for a league race at a track you've not raced on >recently. A virtual "track walk" can be done by making several slow speed >(I use first gear only) laps.....from in-car, and various F-10 type >views.....just to get my mind "reset" to the particular track before I start >running race speed laps. This only takes a few minutes.....and I've found >it to be as valuable in sim racing as it became in real-world racing for me. >Some of you might think this is stupid. Well, lots of drivers thought what >Pete Cunningham did was "stupid" too! You can "take or leave the lesson" >for what its worth to you.

I don't think it's stupid to make 'recon' laps of a track you don't know. Problem is, I never seem to learn anything that helps... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I agree with Franc on this one...but with ONE caveat: The track ACCURACY is spot on...but they are not the prettiest tracks out there....Having said that...I'd rather have the track accurate than cute. I just wish there was some way to convert those tracks into the n3/N4/GPL system... dave henrie AMA Superbike...Think World Superbike but in the States with ...I believe...750cc 4 stroke engines. dh > AMA Superbike is the "major" American biking series in the USA. It's not > really a good software, but the tracks in it (Road Atlanta, Road America, > Mid-Ohio, Sears Point, Brainerd, Willow Springs, etc..) are so incrediblemy

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> jaw dropped when I first tried the software. F1RC is nothing compared to > them. > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.ymenard.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

I've learned two important things from Proffesional CART driver Jimmy Vasser.... Wall = Bad Road = Good...these pearls of wisdom have served me in good stead... dave henrie "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <nQLX6.103209$%[email hidden]>, "TomPabst" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Racing sims are of course....not yet produced with that kind of detail > >(although I believe the day is not far off that they will be). But,there > >are still "lessons" to learn in this type of thing......when visiting anew > >sim track.....or preparing for a league race at a track you've not racedon > >recently. A virtual "track walk" can be done by making several slowspeed > >(I use first gear only) laps.....from in-car, and various F-10 type > >views.....just to get my mind "reset" to the particular track before Istart > >running race speed laps. This only takes a few minutes.....and I'vefound > >it to be as valuable in sim racing as it became in real-world racing forme. > >Some of you might think this is stupid. Well, lots of drivers thoughtwhat

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> >Pete Cunningham did was "stupid" too! You can "take or leave the lesson" > >for what its worth to you. > > I don't think it's stupid to make 'recon' laps of a track you don't know. > Problem is, I never seem to learn anything that helps... > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Hey Tom! Thanks for taking the time to write such an fascinating response to my original post- I loved your story of Cunningham's track walks! Thanks again. Tim In article <nQLX6.103209$%[email hidden]>, Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> Elevation, banking, camber, slope......particularly on road courses....in > the braking zones.....are critical to fast laps....and good race setups. As > a driver, you don't get an appropriate "feel" for these elements from within > the cockpit. This is because the normal "references" our brains > need......are mostly absent once we put on our helmets....and climb into the > cockpit (including open cockpits....but to a lesser extent only than closed > cockpits). This is primarily due to the artificial horizon induced by the > dashboard....reference for our eyes/brains....and the restricted peripheral > vision induced by racing helmets and the race car cockpits themselves. To a > very great extent.....this applies to sim racing as well as to real-world > racing. And, this may be the reason we don't seem to get the same "feel and > perspective" for the elevation changes....and track banking....in our sim > racing as we do when visiting the real-world track for the first time. > > When I was running in the ESCORT Endurance Series in the late 1980's......my > first year on the tour....meant I was being introduced to new race tracks > almost at every event. I was a totally rookie in pro racing at the > time........so I figured what I needed to do was to follow the routines used > by all the veteran drivers.....to come up to race speeds when ever we began > a weekend event at a new race track. The "race teams" usually began > arriving at the track on Wednesdays....and the drivers usually showed up on > Wednesday nights or Thursday mornings. The first "practice sessions" > usually began Thursday afternoon. I noticed that you could hardly ever find > any of the drivers on Wednesday night or Thursday morning.....anywhere else > but out walking the track! And, the ones most dedicated drivers at doing > this "walking of the track...notebook in hand.....totally alone and without > distraction"......where the guys who also had the most experience at the > tracks.....they were the veteran drivers........not the ones with the least > experience, us rookies! That was a "lesson" for me......and I never forgot > this. Not oddly......those were the same drivers who first started setting > competitive lap speeds......and first dialed in their race setups.....in the > early practice sessions! > > Everyone had different techniques for these "track walks"....as I learned to > call them. And, some of the veteran drivers were better at it than others. > I learned some great stuff from Peter Cunningham........a veteran driver > even back in the late 80's. Peter told me that no matter how many races > he'd done at a particular track......he always did the same "track walk" > routine......even at tracks he'd run just a few weeks prior (in a different > race series). He said (without going into great detail).....that it "reset" > his mind's eye for the current track......banking, surface texture, turn > camber and so forth....preparing his senses and hand/eye coordination for > racing on that particular track for the next several days. He would even > stop walking when ever he got into the braking zone of a turn that was at > the end of a mid to high-speed straight. He'd actually carefully feel the > track surface....with his bare hands.....crouched down sometimes in a > crawling position on his hands and knees........particularly looking for the > small stones that were uncovered from the tarmac or concrete (depending on > the track surface type)....for how much the stones were ruffed...or polished > from previous races. He'd note the stone surfaces....moving his initial > braking markers up track (earlier) for smooth stones.....and down track > (later) for rough ones....and all variations in-between. Of course, he'd > also make note of the more obvious things like any new track patches that > might have been laid since his last race at that track! It will be of no > surprise to anyone that I tell you that Peter Cunningham was almost always > the first driver....and the earliest to come up to competitive race > speeds.......and he always contended for the "pole" on Friday afternoon > qualifying runs. > > Racing sims are of course....not yet produced with that kind of detail > (although I believe the day is not far off that they will be). But, there > are still "lessons" to learn in this type of thing......when visiting a new > sim track.....or preparing for a league race at a track you've not raced on > recently. A virtual "track walk" can be done by making several slow speed > (I use first gear only) laps.....from in-car, and various F-10 type > views.....just to get my mind "reset" to the particular track before I start > running race speed laps. This only takes a few minutes.....and I've found > it to be as valuable in sim racing as it became in real-world racing for me. > Some of you might think this is stupid. Well, lots of drivers thought what > Pete Cunningham did was "stupid" too! You can "take or leave the lesson" > for what its worth to you. > > Regards, > > Tom

>"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote > I agree with Franc on this one...but with ONE caveat: > The track ACCURACY is spot on...but they are not the prettiest tracks out > there....Having said that...I'd rather have the track accurate than cute.I > just wish there was some way to convert those tracks into the n3/N4/GPL > system... True, but like somebody said, the color palette really made the track look like on TV (high contrast on every green and yellow). -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

One of the most interesting and enthusiastic r.a.s. posts I've read in a long time. Nice break from the too frequent bitching and bashing that passes for conversation in here now. Marc "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:nQLX6.103209$%[email hidden]... > Elevation, banking, camber, slope......particularly on road courses....in > the braking zones.....are critical to fast laps....and good race setups.As > a driver, you don't get an appropriate "feel" for these elements fromwithin > the cockpit. This is because the normal "references" our brains > need......are mostly absent once we put on our helmets....and climb intothe > cockpit (including open cockpits....but to a lesser extent only thanclosed > cockpits). This is primarily due to the artificial horizon induced by the > dashboard....reference for our eyes/brains....and the restrictedperipheral > vision induced by racing helmets and the race car cockpits themselves. Toa > very great extent.....this applies to sim racing as well as to real-world > racing. And, this may be the reason we don't seem to get the same "feeland > perspective" for the elevation changes....and track banking....in our sim > racing as we do when visiting the real-world track for the first time. > > When I was running in the ESCORT Endurance Series in the late1980's......my > first year on the tour....meant I was being introduced to new race tracks > almost at every event. I was a totally rookie in pro racing at the > time........so I figured what I needed to do was to follow the routinesused > by all the veteran drivers.....to come up to race speeds when ever webegan > a weekend event at a new race track. The "race teams" usually began > arriving at the track on Wednesdays....and the drivers usually showed upon > Wednesday nights or Thursday mornings. The first "practice sessions" > usually began Thursday afternoon. I noticed that you could hardly everfind > any of the drivers on Wednesday night or Thursday morning.....anywhereelse > but out walking the track! And, the ones most dedicated drivers at doing > this "walking of the track...notebook in hand.....totally alone andwithout > distraction"......where the guys who also had the most experience at the > tracks.....they were the veteran drivers........not the ones with theleast > experience, us rookies! That was a "lesson" for me......and I neverforgot > this. Not oddly......those were the same drivers who first startedsetting > competitive lap speeds......and first dialed in their race setups.....inthe > early practice sessions! > > Everyone had different techniques for these "track walks"....as I learnedto > call them. And, some of the veteran drivers were better at it thanothers. > I learned some great stuff from Peter Cunningham........a veteran driver > even back in the late 80's. Peter told me that no matter how many races > he'd done at a particular track......he always did the same "track walk" > routine......even at tracks he'd run just a few weeks prior (in adifferent > race series). He said (without going into great detail).....that it"reset"

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> his mind's eye for the current track......banking, surface texture, turn > camber and so forth....preparing his senses and hand/eye coordination for > racing on that particular track for the next several days. He would even > stop walking when ever he got into the braking zone of a turn that was at > the end of a mid to high-speed straight. He'd actually carefully feel the > track surface....with his bare hands.....crouched down sometimes in a > crawling position on his hands and knees........particularly looking for

the > small stones that were uncovered from the tarmac or concrete (depending on > the track surface type)....for how much the stones were ruffed...orpolished

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> from previous races. He'd note the stone surfaces....moving his initial > braking markers up track (earlier) for smooth stones.....and down track > (later) for rough ones....and all variations in-between. Of course, he'd > also make note of the more obvious things like any new track patches that > might have been laid since his last race at that track! It will be of no > surprise to anyone that I tell you that Peter Cunningham was almost always > the first driver....and the earliest to come up to competitive race > speeds.......and he always contended for the "pole" on Friday afternoon > qualifying runs. > > Racing sims are of course....not yet produced with that kind of detail > (although I believe the day is not far off that they will be). But, there > are still "lessons" to learn in this type of thing......when visiting a

new > sim track.....or preparing for a league race at a track you've not racedon > recently. A virtual "track walk" can be done by making several slow speed > (I use first gear only) laps.....from in-car, and various F-10 type > views.....just to get my mind "reset" to the particular track before Istart > running race speed laps. This only takes a few minutes.....and I've found > it to be as valuable in sim racing as it became in real-world racing forme. > Some of you might think this is stupid. Well, lots of drivers thoughtwhat

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> Pete Cunningham did was "stupid" too! You can "take or leave the lesson" > for what its worth to you. > > Regards, > > Tom > >