real 66/67 driver on gpl , has anyone ever tried it

ok i gotta convince my uncle that gpl is realistic , i'm looking for someone to tell me it is. are any of you are/ or were real racing drivers, engineers etc ? i was thinking the other day too, has stirling moss, or any other famous 60's drivers ever tried gpl ? would be cool to see what they thougt, or ? cheers Rich

That brings up a couple of problems. How does a real race driver who probably has never used a computer racing sim compare reality with simulation? If you find a 60's driver who has regularly used sims, you most likely would get a different review than from a driver who shys away from 'games.' I believe Jackie Stewart did comment on it once but the context of his comments made it clear he was a neophyte when it came to Simming. So any comments he made would be colored by his lack of knowledge in general of the computer simulation arena. Dale Earnhardt Jr. and Kevin Harvick are two youngsters on the Nascar circuit and they have both raced online extensively. They both have commented on N4's realism(N4 is the equivilant of a child of GPL) However, there too you must take that with a grain of salt as both were employed by Papyrus as experts. Finally we only have to look at Cart Precision Racing which was proclaimed as the most real and most precise Cart sim ever...it wasn't but the checks Bobby Rahal and Mark Blundell cashed most certainly were. dave henrie "Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> ok i gotta convince my uncle that gpl is realistic , i'm looking for > someone to tell me it is. > > are any of you are/ or were real racing drivers, engineers etc ? > > i was thinking the other day too, has stirling moss, or any other > famous 60's drivers ever tried gpl ? > > would be cool to see what they thougt, or ? > > cheers > > Rich

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hm2Y6.208013$[email hidden]... <snip> > Finally we only have to look at Cart Precision Racing which wasproclaimed > as the most real and most precise Cart sim ever...it wasn't but thechecks > Bobby Rahal and Mark Blundell cashed most certainly were.<snip> LOL!!!!! Nice one, Dave. ;-)

Jackie Stewart tried it and said in a radio interview that it wasn't realistic. He said the real cars had much more grip, and were more stable. David G Fisher "Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> ok i gotta convince my uncle that gpl is realistic , i'm looking for > someone to tell me it is. > > are any of you are/ or were real racing drivers, engineers etc ? > > i was thinking the other day too, has stirling moss, or any other > famous 60's drivers ever tried gpl ? > > would be cool to see what they thougt, or ? > > cheers > > Rich

CPR has some decent physics...its just not many people raced on PRO because it is slower if you drive on PRO instead of ROOKIE...the one problem is that the tracks weren't too great (very bumpy) so people had trouble driving in pro (wheelspin on bumps=spin...but wait, that happens in real life...must be unrealistic)...sorry, I enjoyed and still enjoy playing CPR so I have to defend it. I prefer it over ICR2, personally, because everything happens faster in CPR (braking and turning...kinda like the real cars) and there are a wealth of setup options I can dick with to make my car perfect... sorry if I offended anyone hardcore CPR haters...if you would like, I wouldn't mind hearing the reasons you find CPR to be terrible in the physics department...maybe I missed something important. JB Dave Henrie wrote in message ... > That brings up a couple of problems. How does a real race driver who >probably has never used a computer racing sim compare reality with >simulation? If you find a 60's driver who has regularly used sims, youmost >likely would get a different review than from a driver who shys away from >'games.' > I believe Jackie Stewart did comment on it once but the context of his >comments made it clear he was a neophyte when it came to Simming. So any >comments he made would be colored by his lack of knowledge in general ofthe

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>computer simulation arena. > Dale Earnhardt Jr. and Kevin Harvick are two youngsters on the Nascar >circuit and they have both raced online extensively. They both have >commented on N4's realism(N4 is the equivilant of a child of GPL) However, >there too you must take that with a grain of salt as both were employed by >Papyrus as experts. > Finally we only have to look at Cart Precision Racing which was

proclaimed

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>as the most real and most precise Cart sim ever...it wasn't but the checks >Bobby Rahal and Mark Blundell cashed most certainly were. >dave henrie >"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> ok i gotta convince my uncle that gpl is realistic , i'm looking for >> someone to tell me it is. >> >> are any of you are/ or were real racing drivers, engineers etc ? >> >> i was thinking the other day too, has stirling moss, or any other >> famous 60's drivers ever tried gpl ? >> >> would be cool to see what they thougt, or ? >> >> cheers >> >> Rich > >

The GPL basher is back trying again...Don't fuel the fire . The thread will be worthless.. So let it die a quick death.. | Jackie Stewart tried it and said in a radio interview that it wasn't | realistic. He said the real cars had much more grip, and were more stable. | David G Fisher

[email hidden] (Thom j.) wrote: > The GPL basher is back trying again To be fair, he's not a GPL-basher. DGF just dislikes what he perceives to be the GPL brainwashing of this newsgroup. I think he works on the principle that by unashamedly trolling he can keep some of us too busy arguing with him to actually drive GPL. In fact if you look at it that way he's a wannabe therapist, not a troll. He's trying to break the cycle of addiction and promote an overall sense of wellbeing within the online community. I feel a group hug coming on. <fx: conceals switchblade up sleeve> Andrew "more power Igor" McP

In article <[email hidden] o.uk>, Andrew MacPherson <[email hidden]> writes

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>[email hidden] (Thom j.) wrote: > >> The GPL basher is back trying again > >To be fair, he's not a GPL-basher. DGF just dislikes what he perceives to >be the GPL brainwashing of this newsgroup. I think he works on the >principle that by unashamedly trolling he can keep some of us too busy >arguing with him to actually drive GPL. In fact if you look at it that way >he's a wannabe therapist, not a troll. He's trying to break the cycle of >addiction and promote an overall sense of wellbeing within the online >community. >

That's right. You should only play any sim for a maximum of 6 months and then move on. It's the only way to get the most out of car racing and, as an additional benefit, prevents any kind of over-fixation which could lead to an unhealthy interest or even pleasure. -- Peter Ives Remove ALL_STRESS before replying If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -17.06

>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > Jackie Stewart tried it and said in a radio interview that it wasn't > realistic. He said the real cars had much more grip, and were more stable. Post proof or retract. lol -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Didn't try it for very long (CPR) but I didn't want to when you have the "help" options on by default, and drive quick laps by only holding the accelerator key. And also OVERTAKE other cars... No braking or turning required, ridiculous. Rafe Mc On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 21:23:36 GMT, "Jesse Black" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>CPR has some decent physics...its just not many people raced on PRO because >it is slower if you drive on PRO instead of ROOKIE...the one problem is that >the tracks weren't too great (very bumpy) so people had trouble driving in >pro (wheelspin on bumps=spin...but wait, that happens in real life...must be >unrealistic)...sorry, I enjoyed and still enjoy playing CPR so I have to >defend it. I prefer it over ICR2, personally, because everything happens >faster in CPR (braking and turning...kinda like the real cars) and there are >a wealth of setup options I can dick with to make my car perfect... > >sorry if I offended anyone hardcore CPR haters...if you would like, I >wouldn't mind hearing the reasons you find CPR to be terrible in the physics >department...maybe I missed something important. > >JB > >Dave Henrie wrote in message ... >> That brings up a couple of problems. How does a real race driver who >>probably has never used a computer racing sim compare reality with >>simulation? If you find a 60's driver who has regularly used sims, you >most >>likely would get a different review than from a driver who shys away from >>'games.' >> I believe Jackie Stewart did comment on it once but the context of his >>comments made it clear he was a neophyte when it came to Simming. So any >>comments he made would be colored by his lack of knowledge in general of >the >>computer simulation arena. >> Dale Earnhardt Jr. and Kevin Harvick are two youngsters on the Nascar >>circuit and they have both raced online extensively. They both have >>commented on N4's realism(N4 is the equivilant of a child of GPL) However, >>there too you must take that with a grain of salt as both were employed by >>Papyrus as experts. >> Finally we only have to look at Cart Precision Racing which was >proclaimed >>as the most real and most precise Cart sim ever...it wasn't but the checks >>Bobby Rahal and Mark Blundell cashed most certainly were. >>dave henrie >>"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>news:[email hidden]... >>> ok i gotta convince my uncle that gpl is realistic , i'm looking for >>> someone to tell me it is. >>> >>> are any of you are/ or were real racing drivers, engineers etc ? >>> >>> i was thinking the other day too, has stirling moss, or any other >>> famous 60's drivers ever tried gpl ? >>> >>> would be cool to see what they thougt, or ? >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> Rich >> >> >

I would certainly hope that's true. Looking at video of the era, that statement can't be too far off. -- Mark Jeangerard "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4w7Y6.26992$[email hidden]... > Jackie Stewart tried it and said in a radio interview that it wasn't > realistic. He said the real cars had much more grip, and were more stable. > > David G Fisher

Asking totally stress-free... Peter, do you mean to say u managed to get GPL Rank down to -50 in 6 months time (on a joystick)? If so.. then let me shake any of your three hands... as u are an Alien o' GPL :-) Mike "Peter Ives" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden] > o.uk>, Andrew MacPherson <[email hidden]> writes > >[email hidden] (Thom j.) wrote: > > > >> The GPL basher is back trying again > > > >To be fair, he's not a GPL-basher. DGF just dislikes what he perceives to > >be the GPL brainwashing of this newsgroup. I think he works on the > >principle that by unashamedly trolling he can keep some of us too busy > >arguing with him to actually drive GPL. In fact if you look at it that

way

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> >he's a wannabe therapist, not a troll. He's trying to break the cycle of > >addiction and promote an overall sense of wellbeing within the online > >community. > > > That's right. You should only play any sim for a maximum of 6 months > and then move on. It's the only way to get the most out of car racing > and, as an additional benefit, prevents any kind of over-fixation which > could lead to an unhealthy interest or even pleasure. > -- > Peter Ives > Remove ALL_STRESS before replying > If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me > GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -17.06

I think David actually made that one up, actually! In any case, it's been said many times before that the lack of true force-feedback (on the body, not just via the wheel) leads to a feeling of "driving on ice", even though the actual grip levels being modelled are far higher than that. Normally when driving you will use the "seat of the pants" to determine whether the car is sliding, whereas in GPL you have to use your eyes and ears, which is a completely new skill to learn. That's why computer simulations will *never* come close to feeling like driving a real car, until we are sitting in simulators that can pitch and yaw etc. to give the impression of G-forces acting on the body. I saw a great video that Jimmi Bo put together which was a mix of real footage of the '67 cars and GPL: I was amazed how similar the original cars were to the "real thing" (or is it the other way round? ;-) ). You can really see the cars moving a long way on their suspension, just as in GPL, and there was also a Honda going into a spin in a very familar fashion! I really think it's the lack of G-forces that makes GPL seem so different to the real thing: but the funny thing is, the more you play, the more you can "sense" what the car is doing, and the more realistic it seems. I think this is true of many computer racing simulations: you need to get "into the game" before you can really appreciate what's going on. If you never manage to enter a corner at approximately the right speed, you're never going to stand a change of making the necessary corrections to get round it on the limit, and consequently you can't "feel" the edge of the envelope, as it were. When I first started playing GPL the cars seemed to have hardly any grip at all, but now they feel much easier to control, as long as I'm not using an "alien" setup! Oh, and as long as I'm not trying for a PB at the 'Ring - that track is a monster! "mark jeangerard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GHjY6.93704$[email hidden]... > > I would certainly hope that's true. Looking at video of the era, thatstatement can't be

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> too far off. > -- > > Mark Jeangerard > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:4w7Y6.26992$[email hidden]... > > Jackie Stewart tried it and said in a radio interview that it wasn't > > realistic. He said the real cars had much more grip, and were more

stable. > > > > David G Fisher > > > >

In article <z_kY6.615$[email hidden]>, Mike P <[email hidden]> writes >Asking totally stress-free... Peter, do you mean to say u managed to get >GPL >Rank down to -50 in 6 months time (on a joystick)? If so.. then let me shake >any of your three hands... as u are an Alien o' GPL :-) > >Mike Is that earth months? :) 'Today, I are mostly playing... GPL.' BTW the statement below was purely tongue-in-cheek, based upon other statements that I have read elsewhere in this ng. > >> That's right. You should only play any sim for a maximum of 6 months >> and then move on. It's the only way to get the most out of car racing >> and, as an additional benefit, prevents any kind of over-fixation which >> could lead to an unhealthy interest or even pleasure. -- Peter Ives Remove ALL_STRESS before replying If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -17.06

"Jackie Stewart tried it and said in a radio interview that it wasn't realistic. He said the real cars had much more grip, and were more stable." I have to agree with Jackie Stewart on this. Don't get me wrong.....I LOVE GPL! It's my favorite sim of all time. I have noticed though that the cars do seem to "skate" like they are on water at ice at times and the cars do seem to lose control at low speeds (35-60 mph) just like at high speeds at times. The rear ends of the cars seem to lose grip easily making it easy to slide around turns at times when they should actually just spin out or begin to regain grip at certain points in a turn and slow the car down because of the sudden grip like in real life. You get the effect that the rear end only is on ice in GPL during this situation. It's just too easy to slide the rear end around to make a turn in GPL. You should also lose speed in turns when the front end pushes. Making a turn smooth and not sliding tires much (especially the front end "push") should always be the fastest way around any corner because you aren't scrubbing off speed with friction. Of course you do want to hear a little squeal from the tires from taking them to the edge, just not a complete slide or whip around. This is true of any race car on asphalt. On dirt it's a totally different story but of course there aren't any dirt tracks in GPL. Of course I haven't driven a real '67 legend car so I probably have no idea what I'm talking about. "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4w7Y6.26992$[email hidden]...

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> Jackie Stewart tried it and said in a radio interview that it wasn't > realistic. He said the real cars had much more grip, and were more stable. > > David G Fisher > > "Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > ok i gotta convince my uncle that gpl is realistic , i'm looking for > > someone to tell me it is. > > > > are any of you are/ or were real racing drivers, engineers etc ? > > > > i was thinking the other day too, has stirling moss, or any other > > famous 60's drivers ever tried gpl ? > > > > would be cool to see what they thougt, or ? > > > > cheers > > > > Rich >

Bill Anderson wrote:

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> > "Jackie Stewart tried it and said in a radio interview that it wasn't > realistic. He said the real cars had much more grip, and were more stable." > > I have to agree with Jackie Stewart on this. Don't get me wrong.....I LOVE > GPL! It's my favorite sim of all time. > > I have noticed though that the cars do seem to "skate" like they are on > water at ice at times and the cars do seem to lose control at low speeds > (35-60 mph) just like at high speeds at times. The rear ends of the cars > seem to lose grip easily making it easy to slide around turns at times when > they should actually just spin out or begin to regain grip at certain points > in a turn and slow the car down because of the sudden grip like in real > life. You get the effect that the rear end only is on ice in GPL during this > situation. It's just too easy to slide the rear end around to make a turn in > GPL.

<snip> We also have to remember that GPL did not come with, nor do most drivers use to this day, realistic chassis & esp. differential settings. As anyone who has driven GPL for any length of time can tell you, setup can make a drastic difference in a car's temperament. -- Fester

Neil he makes up so much more then he can prove!!! This he has already been proven!! Fact!! Thom_j. [imho & fwiw, its called: "pathological lair"] "Neil Raine" wrote: | I think David actually made that one up, actually!<snipped> --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.262 / Virus Database: 132 - Release Date: 6/12/2001

Bill this is the most profound comment you made below!! It's a big difference from any sim to "real life" & the old 67 bias tyres on the F1 chassis back then were entirely different then 70s, 80s or now! Jackie Stewart does know & I would love' to hear his entire radio interview to hear it all!! I have been in these chassis-s & they slide like hell on the asphalt. Plus those old rubber bias tyres were hard as a rock!... Thom_j. "Bill Anderson" wrote: | Of course I haven't driven a real '67 legend car so I probably have noidea | what I'm talking about. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.262 / Virus Database: 132 - Release Date: 6/12/2001

This is basically true, but it needs clarifying. What Jackie Stewart said was that he'd seen his grandson (might have been nephew) playing it and that the game didn't model the driving style used in 1967. That's pretty much an exact quote, make of it what you will everyone. It leaves lots of question unanswered though, for instance- - Was his grandson playing GPL on the keys, a joystick or a wheel? - Were the driving aids turned on? - Did he have a 3d card and decent PC, or was the game running really slow, which affects the perception of the physics model. - Maybe his grandson was just a lousy driver :) - Does a game model a driving style anyway? "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4w7Y6.26992$[email hidden]... > Jackie Stewart tried it and said in a radio interview that it wasn't > realistic. He said the real cars had much more grip, and were more stable. > > David G Fisher

Thanks for clarifying that statement. Obviously a good sim doesn't model a driving style, but rather, allows the user to apply his/her style to manipulate results. You know, I have only ever seen myself drive GPL. But I have talked to many other GPL driver and many times in great detail. I have a feeling that GPL forces a certain style. I'm not trying to say that Jackie Stewart may have glimpsed that in his grandson, just that your observations bring up a good point. If GPL forces a certain group of instincts to be learned, then it is not so much a sim as it is just another program. For what it is, it's great, but Jackie may have inadvertently hit the nail on the head. -- Mark Jeangerard "Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DYvY6.71587$[email hidden]... > This is basically true, but it needs clarifying. What Jackie Stewart said > was that he'd seen his grandson (might have been nephew) playing it and that > the game didn't model the driving style used in 1967. That's pretty much an > exact quote, make of it what you will everyone. > > It leaves lots of question unanswered though, for instance- > > - Was his grandson playing GPL on the keys, a joystick or a wheel? > - Were the driving aids turned on? > - Did he have a 3d card and decent PC, or was the game running really slow, > which affects the perception of the physics model. > - Maybe his grandson was just a lousy driver :) > - Does a game model a driving style anyway? > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:4w7Y6.26992$[email hidden]... > > Jackie Stewart tried it and said in a radio interview that it wasn't > > realistic. He said the real cars had much more grip, and were more stable. > > > > David G Fisher > >

Well said, and I agree with everything you say. But... (You had to see that coming. This is usenet, after all.) "Neil Raine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%cpY6.185798$[email hidden]...

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> I think David actually made that one up, actually! > > In any case, it's been said many times before that the lack of true > force-feedback (on the body, not just via the wheel) leads to a feeling of > "driving on ice", even though the actual grip levels being modelled are far > higher than that. > > Normally when driving you will use the "seat of the pants" to determine > whether the car is sliding, whereas in GPL you have to use your eyes and > ears, which is a completely new skill to learn.

Which I started learning long ago. GPL falls short of condensing all those sensations to the audio/visual restrictions of the PC simworld. Other titles, do not. So, there are 'things' that could be better. > That's why computer simulations will *never* come close to feeling like > driving a real car, until we are sitting in simulators that can pitch and > yaw etc. to give the impression of G-forces acting on the body. A friend of mine worked at a place where they make those giant six legged flight simulator mounts for the Air Force. If it had been a few tons less in weight I would have stolen one. lol > I saw a great video that Jimmi Bo put together which was a mix of real > footage of the '67 cars and GPL: I was amazed how similar the original cars > were to the "real thing" (or is it the other way round? ;-) ). I can watch a video of Graham Hill going round Monaco and then get in GPL and drive the car in identical fashion. But on VROC I'll get creamed trying to use realistic driving styles.

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> You can really see the cars moving a long way on their suspension, just as > in GPL, and there was also a Honda going into a spin in a very familar > fashion! > > I really think it's the lack of G-forces that makes GPL seem so different to > the real thing: but the funny thing is, the more you play, the more you can > "sense" what the car is doing, and the more realistic it seems.

Because you are learning it's ways. Not the ways of balancing a car. Just as by learning to type you are learning how to write the language. Speaking it is a whole other matter. > I think this is true of many computer racing simulations: you need to get > "into the game" before you can really appreciate what's going on. Absolutely. I prefer the ones where I can use real driving skills and instincts. > If you never manage to enter a corner at approximately the right speed, > you're never going to stand a change of making the necessary corrections to > get round it on the limit, and consequently you can't "feel" the edge of the > envelope, as it were. GPL's two biggest problems. No sense of speed or position due to incorrect perspective and rendering and the tires don't slide right. A bad mixture. > When I first started playing GPL the cars seemed to have hardly any grip at > all, but now they feel much easier to control, as long as I'm not using an > "alien" setup! > > Oh, and as long as I'm not trying for a PB at the 'Ring - that track is a > monster! Me too. It just messes with my ability to play other games. Then after that, I can't play GPL. Then, after that, I can't play other games... etc. That being said: GPL is without question, the finest piece of software I've ever purchased. It did what it said it would do, right out of the box. It's easy to use and complete in it's approach. Everybody make great stuff for it. What more can you ask for? I wouldn't go so far as to call it a driving sim, but it's racing software without a rival. If you want to race a car, against the most fearless racers in simland, on the most awesome race courses in the world and from the minds of weirdoes without leaving your study, then GPL is the only answer. I'm just ready for a driving sim with online ability. Getting antsy over here. You know? :-) -- Mark Jeangerard

"mark jeangerard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fDEY6.108111$[email hidden]... > Well said, and I agree with everything you say. But... (You had to seethat coming. This > is usenet, after all.) > > [Snipped] > > GPL is without question, the finest piece of software I've ever > purchased. It did what it said it would do, right out of the box. It'seasy to use and > complete in it's approach. Everybody make great stuff for it. What morecan you ask for? I > wouldn't go so far as to call it a driving sim, but it's racing softwarewithout a rival. > If you want to race a car, against the most fearless racers in simland, onthe most > awesome race courses in the world and from the minds of weirdoes withoutleaving your > study, then GPL is the only answer. I really can't say whether GPL is realistic or not, as I've never driven a racing car. However, there are certainly others who have, and I've heard several of them say that they thought GPL was right on the button. Personally I've learned to drive using GPL, so I may be in for a bit of shock if I stepped into a real racing car! ;-) The guy to talk to is Maxx (Malcolm Edeson) - he's a real-life race instructor who has driven GPL a lot, and he says that it *is* possible (in fact desirable) to use real-world driving methods to go fast. I certainly feel that the techniques I use to drive GPL all make sense from a physical perspective: the challenge has been to develop my perception of what's going on, so that I can make sense of where I am on the track, and what the car is doing. That said, the real fun is the sheer complexity of the driving model: I just find that if a game's physics are too simplistic I get bored. With GPL I'm constantly having to feel for the limit, trying to get in tune with the car. I think I'd agree with you that it is much more difficult to sense the speed and position of the car within the game than it is in real life: it may or may not be worse in GPL than in other games, but the real problem is that you need to have a much more accurate idea of where you are in GPL if you are to keep control of the car! As for whether Jackie Stewart was able to judge whether GPL was true-to-life or not by watching his grandson play: I heard somewhere that Sir Jackie had maintained that he didn't use trail-braking, until his pit crew used telemetry to prove that he did! The point is that many racing drivers drive by instinct, and aren't always aware of how they do it.

In article <NBsY6.125$[email hidden]>, "Bill Anderson" <[email hidden]> writes: > > You should also lose speed in turns when the front end pushes. Well, in my experience you most certainly do in GPL. Check your replays and watch what happens to your speed reading at the top when you have understeer in a sweeping corner. Marc

In article <993221123.658215@dionysos>, "Neil Raine" <[email hidden]> writes: > As for whether Jackie Stewart was able to judge whether GPL was true-to-life > or not by watching his grandson play: I heard somewhere that Sir Jackie had > maintained that he didn't use trail-braking, until his pit crew used > telemetry to prove that he did! The point is that many racing drivers drive > by instinct, and aren't always aware of how they do it. Well, you know it's also not entirely impossible that he didn't use trail braking. Have you ever read Mark Donohue's book, _The Unfair Advantage_? (Incidentally, I recommend it heartily to anyone interested in racing, but particularly if you're interested in racing in the late-60s, early-70s. It's a treasure-trove of engineering and setup information, among many other things.) He participated in several "meeting of two worlds" types of races, where American teams in their Formula A/5000 cars raced against European Grand Prix teams with F1 cars. And he described two different driving styles, which he called the "American style" and the "European style". According to his description, the European style was to do all braking in a straight line, drive around the corner, then do all acceleration again in a straight line. By contrast, his American style was to continue braking while turning, then begin re-accelerating while still turning. Stewart being a European would presumably have fallen into that "European style" category, implying no trail-braking, if Donohue's assessment was correct. Now, of course, anyone who has played much GPL recognizes that the style Donohue called "American" is the fastest way around the track. But that doesn't necessarily make GPL unrealistic, as Donohue said the same thing himself. We have the benefit of hindsight and other's experience to know that, however, which Stewart didn't at the time. Marc

In article <DYvY6.71587$[email hidden]>, "Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> writes: > This is basically true, but it needs clarifying. What Jackie Stewart said > was that he'd seen his grandson (might have been nephew) playing it and that > the game didn't model the driving style used in 1967. That's pretty much an > exact quote, make of it what you will everyone. See my other post on this topic, but basically, the way we drive GPL, with trail-braking, and accelerating out of the turns, may well not be the way Stewart himself drove at the time. And perhaps none of the other F1 drivers did either. But they *could* have, which is the key, at least as far as realism of the physics model is concerned. And according to Mark Donohue, drivers in the US *did* drive their cars that way. So we as players of GPL have just benefitted from 30+ years of other people's experience that Stewart didn't have to draw on back then. So yes, I am in fact saying that perhaps we are driving these cars better than the real F1 drivers did back then. Which is not a knock on them. How's that quote go? "If I see further than others have seen, it is only because I stand on the shoulders of giants". Or something like that. Here's another way of looking at it. I'm also interested in military history, and computer simulations thereof. Because I live when I do, if I play a simulation of a battle that happened in the past, I may know to avoid certain mistakes that were made at the time, because I've studied and read about them. I might then win a battle that the original general lost. Does this mean that I'm better than he was? Does this mean that the simulation is automatically unrealistic? No to both. I just have more information, because knowledge advances over time. And it's potentially the same with GPL and driving styles. In summary: the technique we use may be something of an anachronism, but that GPL's physics model allows it is not a flaw, but a feature. It would be worse if the game was written in such a way that only the style that was actually in use at the time could work, rather than being open-ended so that anything physically possible would work, even things not necessarily anticipated by the designers. This latter is the sign of greatness in a simulation. Marc

"I have been in these chassis-s & they slide like hell on the asphalt. Plus those old rubber bias tyres were hard as a rock!... Thom_j." Hahaha. You've driven a 67 grand prix car? LMAO! Yeah I bet those tires were hard as a rock not to mention cracking and old from being 34 years old! Anyway........most of the people that really know are either dead or could care less about comparing a sim to real life racing. I know if I was a GP veteran and had been through all they have seen, I could care less about sims. I sometimes wonder how Dale Jr. can even play N4 when he can drive the real thing every week! Best....... "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:UxvY6.30811$[email hidden]...

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> Bill this is the most profound comment you made below!! It's a big > difference from any sim to "real life" & the old 67 bias tyres on the > F1 chassis back then were entirely different then 70s, 80s or now! > Jackie Stewart does know & I would love' to hear his entire radio > interview to hear it all!! I have been in these chassis-s & they slide > like hell on the asphalt. Plus those old rubber bias tyres were hard > as a rock!... Thom_j. > > "Bill Anderson" wrote: > | Of course I haven't driven a real '67 legend car so I probably have no > idea > | what I'm talking about. > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.262 / Virus Database: 132 - Release Date: 6/12/2001 > > >

No Bill I did it in 66, 67 & 68 :-) Plus it was at The Glen.. See you got to remember I'm old...lol About caring? Well it keeps me from going nuttz now that I am stuck in my house most of the time.. "Bill Anderson" wrote: | "I have been in these chassis-s & they slide | like hell on the asphalt. Plus those old rubber bias tyres were hard | as a rock!... Thom_j." | | Hahaha. You've driven a 67 grand prix car? LMAO! Yeah I bet those tireswere | hard as a rock not to mention cracking and old from being 34 years old! | | Anyway........most of the people that really know are either dead or could | care less about comparing a sim to real life racing. I know if I was a GP | veteran and had been through all they have seen, I could care less about | sims. I sometimes wonder how Dale Jr. can even play N4 when he can drivethe | real thing every week! | Best....... --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.262 / Virus Database: 132 - Release Date: 6/12/2001

"Marc Fraioli" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9gvv0o$agv$[email hidden]... > In article <993221123.658215@dionysos>, > "Neil Raine" <[email hidden]> writes: > > As for whether Jackie Stewart was able to judge whether GPL wastrue-to-life > > or not by watching his grandson play: I heard somewhere that Sir Jackiehad > > maintained that he didn't use trail-braking, until his pit crew used > > telemetry to prove that he did! The point is that many racing driversdrive

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> > by instinct, and aren't always aware of how they do it. > > Well, you know it's also not entirely impossible that he didn't use trail > braking. Have you ever read Mark Donohue's book, _The Unfair Advantage_? > (Incidentally, I recommend it heartily to anyone interested in racing, but > particularly if you're interested in racing in the late-60s, early-70s. > It's a treasure-trove of engineering and setup information, among many > other things.) He participated in several "meeting of two worlds" > types of races, where American teams in their Formula A/5000 cars raced > against European Grand Prix teams with F1 cars. And he described two > different driving styles, which he called the "American style" and the > "European style". According to his description, the European style was > to do all braking in a straight line, drive around the corner, then do > all acceleration again in a straight line. By contrast, his American > style was to continue braking while turning, then begin re-accelerating > while still turning. Stewart being a European would presumably have > fallen into that "European style" category, implying no trail-braking, > if Donohue's assessment was correct. > > Now, of course, anyone who has played much GPL recognizes that the > style Donohue called "American" is the fastest way around the track. > But that doesn't necessarily make GPL unrealistic, as Donohue said > the same thing himself. We have the benefit of hindsight and other's > experience to know that, however, which Stewart didn't at the time.

The article I was referring to was a post on R.A.S. talking about the "Friction Circle", where you try to keep the grip of the tyres at the optimum in all directions. This requires trail-braking, ie. you start braking in a straight line, then at the correct turn-in point, start to turn in and gradually trade off braking for turning, so that a graph of turning against braking would follow a circle (or ellipse, depending on the scale of the axes!). The point was that, although Jackie professed that he finished his braking in a straight line, the graph actually showed that he was following a perfect circle! He also made a quote somewhere about the fact that the hardest thing to master with those cars was the way to _release_ the brake pedal, which implies that this has to be done gradually (which in turn implies some form of trail-braking, even if he didn't call it that). Certainly you have to do a lot of your braking in a straight line on most corners, but I think it was Jim Clark who said that he liked to enter the corner a bit early to get the car into a four-wheel drift, which again is done with trail-braking (having a bit of brake on at the beginning will cause some intentional oversteer, which you can then control with the gas and brake). This is pretty much what I do with GPL - whether or not I could do it with a real car I really don't know!

"Marc Fraioli" wrote... <snip> > How's that quote go? "If I see further than others have seen, it is > only because I stand on the shoulders of giants". Or something like that. "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants" - Isaac Newton.

<snip> "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants" - Isaac Newton.

In article <lpNY6.422$[email hidden]>, "Bill Anderson" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>"I have been in these chassis-s & they slide >like hell on the asphalt. Plus those old rubber bias tyres were hard >as a rock!... Thom_j." > >Hahaha. You've driven a 67 grand prix car? LMAO! Yeah I bet those tires were >hard as a rock not to mention cracking and old from being 34 years old! > >Anyway........most of the people that really know are either dead or could >care less about comparing a sim to real life racing. I know if I was a GP >veteran and had been through all they have seen, I could care less about >sims. I sometimes wonder how Dale Jr. can even play N4 when he can drive the >real thing every week! >

Hey Bill - Say someone was olde enough to drive a race car in 1967, 20 years old for example. That same person would be 53 right now. That isn't very old. There *are* people older than THAT on this board, so don't automatically discount the idea that a current sim driver wouldn't have that experience. Besides, there are many 1967 cars in private ownership - witness all the 'classics' races. It's entirely possible that someone here could have recently driven one, or even own one himself... I do agree with your comment about Dale Jr. Given a choice, I know which car *I'd* be in...<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

BINGO Eldred... 20yrs/old in 67=53now='sMe!! :-) 54 In Oct kiddiez.. From: "EldredP" | Hey Bill - | Say someone was olde enough to drive a race car in 1967, 20 years old for | example. That same person would be 53 right now. That isn't very old.There | *are* people older than THAT on this board, so don't automaticallydiscount the | idea that a current sim driver wouldn't have that experience. Besides,there | are many 1967 cars in private ownership - witness all the 'classics'races. | It's entirely possible that someone here could have recently driven one,or | even own one himself... | I do agree with your comment about Dale Jr. Given a choice, I know whichcar | *I'd* be in...<g> | | Eldred --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.262 / Virus Database: 132 - Release Date: 6/12/2001

I guess realism, is strictly relative at this point. When GPL came out, it opened eyes in many respects and had more realism than most other sims. (In the physics model.) I think the depth of the physics model mimics reality in that it takes constant adjustment to the environment. That in itself makes the game playable... As you say. But doesn't necessarily mean it's realistic. I'm not sure what Maxx was referring to, (I'd like to read any articles or posts - got any links?) but I'd have to guess he was simplifying the matter. The basic rules apply, but when we get down to the actual transfer from intention to reality, or input to response, then the game no longer functions at a realistic level. Mostly because of the interface. I have removed the dynamic cockpit to find a really nice physics model underneath. Not perfect. But certainly better than what shipped. Just so you know, I am perfectly aware of how I drive a real car, a racing kart, and my sims. (Golf is another story, altogether.) However, I would not mind increasing my abilities in any of those areas. If you know of a page that approaches the subject of perception in GPL, something like Nanny's page, I'd love the URL. -- Mark Jeangerard "Neil Raine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:993221123.658215@dionysos... > I really can't say whether GPL is realistic or not, as I've never driven a > racing car. > > However, there are certainly others who have, and I've heard several of them > say that they thought GPL was right on the button. > > Personally I've learned to drive using GPL, so I may be in for a bit of > shock if I stepped into a real racing car! ;-) > > The guy to talk to is Maxx (Malcolm Edeson) - he's a real-life race > instructor who has driven GPL a lot, and he says that it *is* possible (in > fact desirable) to use real-world driving methods to go fast. > > I certainly feel that the techniques I use to drive GPL all make sense from > a physical perspective: the challenge has been to develop my perception of > what's going on, so that I can make sense of where I am on the track, and > what the car is doing. > > That said, the real fun is the sheer complexity of the driving model: I just > find that if a game's physics are too simplistic I get bored. With GPL I'm > constantly having to feel for the limit, trying to get in tune with the car. > > I think I'd agree with you that it is much more difficult to sense the speed > and position of the car within the game than it is in real life: it may or > may not be worse in GPL than in other games, but the real problem is that > you need to have a much more accurate idea of where you are in GPL if you > are to keep control of the car! > > As for whether Jackie Stewart was able to judge whether GPL was true-to-life > or not by watching his grandson play: I heard somewhere that Sir Jackie had > maintained that he didn't use trail-braking, until his pit crew used > telemetry to prove that he did! The point is that many racing drivers drive > by instinct, and aren't always aware of how they do it. > > > >

Well, that would pretty much explain Nuvalari and Clark then, wouldn't it. :-) -- Mark Jeangerard "Marc Fraioli" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9gvv0o$agv$[email hidden]... > In article <993221123.658215@dionysos>, >And he described two > different driving styles, which he called the "American style" and the > "European style". According to his description, the European style was > to do all braking in a straight line, drive around the corner, then do > all acceleration again in a straight line. By contrast, his American > style was to continue braking while turning, then begin re-accelerating > while still turning. Stewart being a European would presumably have > fallen into that "European style" category, implying no trail-braking, > if Donohue's assessment was correct.

It is much easier with a real car. The perspective is better. -- Mark Jeangerard "Neil Raine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:993285069.545625@dionysos... > This is pretty much what I do with GPL - whether or not I could do it with a > real car I really don't know! > > > >

Thom, Here's a few direct questions. See if you can avoid sidestepping them: 1. What exact model of car[s] where you driving? 2. How many races or how many seasons? 3. How did the cars rotate under braking? Would you say they were tight or loose? -- Mark Jeangerard [email hidden] Administrator GPVL F2 Division http://home.att.net/~m.jeangerard/GPVLF2 "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:D_QY6.32356$[email hidden]... > No Bill I did it in 66, 67 & 68 :-) Plus it was at The Glen.. See you > got to remember I'm old...lol About caring? Well it keeps me from > going nuttz now that I am stuck in my house most of the time.. > > "Bill Anderson" wrote: > | "I have been in these chassis-s & they slide > | like hell on the asphalt. Plus those old rubber bias tyres were hard > | as a rock!... Thom_j." > | > | Hahaha. You've driven a 67 grand prix car? LMAO! Yeah I bet those tires > were > | hard as a rock not to mention cracking and old from being 34 years old! > | > | Anyway........most of the people that really know are either dead or could > | care less about comparing a sim to real life racing. I know if I was a GP > | veteran and had been through all they have seen, I could care less about > | sims. I sometimes wonder how Dale Jr. can even play N4 when he can drive > the > | real thing every week! > | Best....... > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.262 / Virus Database: 132 - Release Date: 6/12/2001 > >

I forgot to mention that where a race driver looks while driving is very, very important to his/her success. It is as much of the technique as knowing how hard you're pushing the tires or what the best line is. In GPL it's not easy to sight the line correctly. All Kaemmer games have this particular problem. In GPL my vision keeps getting drawn back into the foreground. A place I don't want it to be. -- Mark Jeangerard "Neil Raine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:993221123.658215@dionysos... > I really can't say whether GPL is realistic or not, as I've never driven a > racing car.