Without giving awayt he results, for those who have taped this morning's
F1 race.
The completely unwarranted penalty on Ralf was nitpicking at it's worst.
Obviously the Powers of F1 felt the status quo was being upset. If the
leader's name hadn't been Schumacher, then you can bet the penalty wouldn't
have happened.
What? Ralf's last name is what?
uh...nevermind.....
dave :) henrie
Ralf Schumacher's pit-lane penalty and Michael Schumacher debate
Dave Henrie called Ralf Schumacher's stop-go penalty for crossing the pit exit line at the 2001 European Grand Prix bogus. Others noted the rule is clear, and the thread became a long argument about Michael Schumacher's sportsmanship, citing his collisions with Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve, team orders and traction-control allegations.
real motorsport
Automated summary.
That'll teach him to get too close to his brother, I always though you were
allowed to get 2 wheels over the line when exiting the pit. Did Michael do
the same?
--
Steve Levett
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:c9oZ6.238785$[email hidden]...
> Without giving awayt he results, for those who have taped this morning's
> F1 race.
> The completely unwarranted penalty on Ralf was nitpicking at it's worst.
> Obviously the Powers of F1 felt the status quo was being upset. If the
> leader's name hadn't been Schumacher, then you can bet the penalty
wouldn't
> have happened.
> What? Ralf's last name is what?
> uh...nevermind.....
> dave :) henrie
>
>
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
It was a crap penalty. He had two tires - half the chassis on/over the white
line? I bet Sir Frank was boiling and he was right to be. Ralf handled it
well. You have to give him that. Come right in, take the penalty and leave.
No waiting till the last possible minute.
And real nice start Michael. If you want to be on that side so bad, start in
the number two spot. Is he the only guy whoever started like that? Run the
other guy into the wall? Especially your own brother?
********************************
Dave Pawlikowski
[email hidden]
www.cushdrive.com
www.luftwaffe-experten.com
*********************************
" > That'll teach him to get too close to his brother, I always though you
were
Quoted text (8 lines)
> allowed to get 2 wheels over the line when exiting the pit. Did Michael do > the same? > > -- > > Steve Levett > > " ! =-----He's been warned about his starting several times, he has weaved across the
track dangerously 2 or 3 times before the first corner to stop people
overtaking him. It's no wonder he is so widely hated (apart from Ferrari
fans) by motorsports fans and even some other drivers, even some Germans I
know can't stand him.
--
Steve Levett
Flyer in N4
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
European Racing League - http://www.europeanracingleague.com
502 Racing co-founder - http://www.502racing.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
"Dave Pawlikowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:dCpZ6.1215$[email hidden]...
> It was a crap penalty. He had two tires - half the chassis on/over the
white
> line? I bet Sir Frank was boiling and he was right to be. Ralf handled it
> well. You have to give him that. Come right in, take the penalty and
leave.
> No waiting till the last possible minute.
>
> And real nice start Michael. If you want to be on that side so bad, start
in
> the number two spot. Is he the only guy whoever started like that? Run the
> other guy into the wall? Especially your own brother?
>
> ********************************
> Dave Pawlikowski
> [email hidden]
> www.cushdrive.com
> www.luftwaffe-experten.com
> *********************************
> " > That'll teach him to get too close to his brother, I always though you
> were
> > allowed to get 2 wheels over the line when exiting the pit. Did Michael
do
> > the same?
> >
> > --
> >
> > Steve Levett
> >
> > " ! =-----
>
>
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
How can you say it was unwarranted? If the rule is don't cross the white
line and HE DID, then what's the problem? I saw Michael get ON the line but
not cross it.
--
Sean Higgins
Redline Racing League
www.rrlnrs.com
Redline BGN Division
http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/RRL/
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:c9oZ6.238785$[email hidden]...
> Without giving awayt he results, for those who have taped this morning's
> F1 race.
> The completely unwarranted penalty on Ralf was nitpicking at it's worst.
> Obviously the Powers of F1 felt the status quo was being upset. If the
> leader's name hadn't been Schumacher, then you can bet the penalty
wouldn't
> have happened.
> What? Ralf's last name is what?
> uh...nevermind.....
> dave :) henrie
>
>
He's not hated by any (of the many) motorsports fans I know! In fact the
total opposite is the case. Almost everyone I know is a big MS fan, because
he has a massive talent and although that comes with some arrogant driving,
so be it. He is the best.
Iain
"Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3b361aa4$[email hidden]...
> He's been warned about his starting several times, he has weaved acrossthe
--
> -------------------
> European Racing League - http://www.europeanracingleague.com
> 502 Racing co-founder - http://www.502racing.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> -------------------
> "Dave Pawlikowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:dCpZ6.1215$[email hidden]...
> > It was a crap penalty. He had two tires - half the chassis on/over the
> white
> > line? I bet Sir Frank was boiling and he was right to be. Ralf handled
it
> > well. You have to give him that. Come right in, take the penalty and
> leave.
> > No waiting till the last possible minute.
> >
> > And real nice start Michael. If you want to be on that side so bad,
start
> in
> > the number two spot. Is he the only guy whoever started like that? Run
the
> > other guy into the wall? Especially your own brother?
> >
> > ********************************
> > Dave Pawlikowski
> > [email hidden]
> > www.cushdrive.com
> > www.luftwaffe-experten.com
> > *********************************
> > " > That'll teach him to get too close to his brother, I always though
you
> > were
> > > allowed to get 2 wheels over the line when exiting the pit. Did
Michael
> do
> > > the same?
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Steve Levett
> > >
> > > " ! =-----
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Quoted text (10 lines)
> track dangerously 2 or 3 times before the first corner to stop people > overtaking him. It's no wonder he is so widely hated (apart from Ferrari > fans) by motorsports fans and even some other drivers, even some Germans I > know can't stand him. > > -- > > Steve Levett > Flyer in N4 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Pawlikowski <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:dCpZ6.1215$[email hidden]...
> It was a crap penalty. He had two tires - half the chassis on/over thewhite
> line? I bet Sir Frank was boiling and he was right to be. Ralf handled it
> well. You have to give him that. Come right in, take the penalty andleave.
> No waiting till the last possible minute.
Um, waht are you suggesting?
Any car that is notified of a stop go has 3 laps to comply or gets a DQ.
The official rule is that cars hae to keep inside the line.
The "gentlemans" rule is that they keep the inside line into turn 1.
Yeah, it was nitpicking, no doubt but all in all they did it as it was so
noticable since he came out much too early at a time the track was busy...
it was really flashed in their faces so they decided to take action.
Now, saying that it was done to help Michael, what utter rubbish....
Wouldn't it have been more beneficial to pul in Michael for crossing the
line INTO the pit lane loosing him a place and making DC and Ralf both draw
nearer... thats a money spiiner for the F1 top notches, MS winning the title
by Ausgust/September means a major drop off in spending/viewing by fans.
> And real nice start Michael. If you want to be on that side so bad, startin
> the number two spot. Is he the only guy whoever started like that? Run the
> other guy into the wall? Especially your own brother?
Again, what were you watching?
Obviously you've never raced yourself... Ralf was gaining speed, what sort
of an idiot fighting for a World Championship would just let a competitor
the level of RS by? (Oh, Sorry DC, I forgot about you.)
2nd point... Run him into the wall? What are you talking about?
Ralf began to make ground and MS moved across INFRONT of him so they were
running one behind the other meaning Ralf had to slow slightly so he didn't
run into the back of Michael thus Monty drew nearer into T1.
Didn't you watch any of the race mate? The onboards as well as other cameras
showed all this...over and over....!
Michael has done it, Ralf has probably doneit, now they're just doing it to
each other... it's all racing... I know people do it to me but I don't bitch
to the marshals afterwards since it's racing, I either find room or I don't
get by... thats racing!!
Ferrari are generally the most supported team as is Michael usually the most
supported driver at most GP's... I doubt that means they hate him.
2nd of all to go into the technical bits of this... he made one move right
then retook the racing line.... that's what the rules allow.
Weaving is Hakkinen in Brazil last year... or Hill in Canada.... dangerous
stuff...
Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3b361aa4$[email hidden]...
> He's been warned about his starting several times, he has weaved acrossthe
--
> -------------------
> European Racing League - http://www.europeanracingleague.com
> 502 Racing co-founder - http://www.502racing.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> -------------------
> "Dave Pawlikowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:dCpZ6.1215$[email hidden]...
> > It was a crap penalty. He had two tires - half the chassis on/over the
> white
> > line? I bet Sir Frank was boiling and he was right to be. Ralf handled
it
> > well. You have to give him that. Come right in, take the penalty and
> leave.
> > No waiting till the last possible minute.
> >
> > And real nice start Michael. If you want to be on that side so bad,
start
> in
> > the number two spot. Is he the only guy whoever started like that? Run
the
> > other guy into the wall? Especially your own brother?
> >
> > ********************************
> > Dave Pawlikowski
> > [email hidden]
> > www.cushdrive.com
> > www.luftwaffe-experten.com
> > *********************************
> > " > That'll teach him to get too close to his brother, I always though
you
> > were
> > > allowed to get 2 wheels over the line when exiting the pit. Did
Michael
> do
> > > the same?
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Steve Levett
> > >
> > > " ! =-----
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Quoted text (10 lines)
> track dangerously 2 or 3 times before the first corner to stop people > overtaking him. It's no wonder he is so widely hated (apart from Ferrari > fans) by motorsports fans and even some other drivers, even some Germans I > know can't stand him. > > -- > > Steve Levett > Flyer in N4 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------Hi all.
*inserts 2 cents*...
Being a MS fan, i still feel robbed of a good race by the officials
who penalised ralf. The 10-second stop and go is *such* a terrible
penalty that I wonder if the punishment fits the crime. It's a pity
that they can't just penalise him 20 seconds or have a drive-thru
instead.
F1 fans seem to be divided quite firmly in the love / hate camps when
it comes to MS. I guess i started supporting him because of my
dislike of Senna. Funny thing is that Michael seems to be displaying
some of the traits of Senna that I didn't like then. I was a Prost
fan in those days and always thought that Senna was too aggressive
(*insert anti MS stuff*), etc.
I guess the reason I still support him is how he has managed to
perform well, even on the days when he had a problem or slow(er) car.
I remember in Spain(i think) in the Benetton a few years ago, he got
stuck in 5th or 6th gear(can't remember). He lost the lead and
dropped back, but still managed to adjust his driving technique to
accomodate this major disability and still scored points. Someone
with a better memory will have all the details. From that day I
realised that I will be a fan for a long time. The aggressive moves
against Damon Hill & Jacques Villeneuve to try and force the
championships in his favor were probably the most terrible things he's
done in my view. I still find myself supporting him though. Funny
thing for me to admit is that I thought that the next hot driver and
possibly the person to knock him off his perch would be Montoya. I
might still be right on that one though.
Without meaning to get into a squabble over something so small, but I
had to smile when I read this next bit...
>fans) by motorsports fans and even some other drivers, even some Germans I
>know can't stand him.That's like saying, even some Americans can't stand Little Al or
Michael Andretti or whoever. I'm sure there are some Canadians who
can't stand Paul Tracy or Jacques Villeneuve. I'm South African and
there are *many* South African sports people that I can't stand.
1 It's got nothing to do with the sportsperson, it's my preference.
2 People living in the same country don't all like the same teams /
athletes / popstars or whatever.
Actually. Now that I've read that last bit again, let me apologise in
advance to anyone who thinks i'm looking for an argument. Maybe I am
not taking the comment in its proper context.
Its 9:45PM and I'm waiting for the CART race to start on ESPN.
Regards all,
Regards all,
istoff
Here's why I don't like him.
They found tracton control in the software on the car when he was at Beneton
but they siad we are not using it so the FIA said ok. (blatent cheating)
He wrecked Damon Hill on purpose to get the Championship.
He contunually gets better treatment from F1. Bernie even said on screen he
wanted MS to win the title.
He will not allow his teammates to race against him equally.
He's very arrogant.
Ferrari and MS were using traction control last year between gear shifts.
That's why they had to allow it this year.
He continually pulles dangerous moves time after time on other drivers.
btw, he was stuck in 5th gear in that race and I admit he is a very fast
driver but to me he will never be one of the greats of F1.
--
Steve Levett
Flyer in N4
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
European Racing League - http://www.europeanracingleague.com
502 Racing co-founder - http://www.502racing.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
"istoff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Hi all.
>
> *inserts 2 cents*...
>
> Being a MS fan, i still feel robbed of a good race by the officials
> who penalised ralf. The 10-second stop and go is *such* a terrible
> penalty that I wonder if the punishment fits the crime. It's a pity
> that they can't just penalise him 20 seconds or have a drive-thru
> instead.
>
> F1 fans seem to be divided quite firmly in the love / hate camps when
> it comes to MS. I guess i started supporting him because of my
> dislike of Senna. Funny thing is that Michael seems to be displaying
> some of the traits of Senna that I didn't like then. I was a Prost
> fan in those days and always thought that Senna was too aggressive
> (*insert anti MS stuff*), etc.
>
> I guess the reason I still support him is how he has managed to
> perform well, even on the days when he had a problem or slow(er) car.
> I remember in Spain(i think) in the Benetton a few years ago, he got
> stuck in 5th or 6th gear(can't remember). He lost the lead and
> dropped back, but still managed to adjust his driving technique to
> accomodate this major disability and still scored points. Someone
> with a better memory will have all the details. From that day I
> realised that I will be a fan for a long time. The aggressive moves
> against Damon Hill & Jacques Villeneuve to try and force the
> championships in his favor were probably the most terrible things he's
> done in my view. I still find myself supporting him though. Funny
> thing for me to admit is that I thought that the next hot driver and
> possibly the person to knock him off his perch would be Montoya. I
> might still be right on that one though.
>
>
> Without meaning to get into a squabble over something so small, but I
> had to smile when I read this next bit...
> >fans) by motorsports fans and even some other drivers, even some Germans
I
> >know can't stand him.
> That's like saying, even some Americans can't stand Little Al or
> Michael Andretti or whoever. I'm sure there are some Canadians who
> can't stand Paul Tracy or Jacques Villeneuve. I'm South African and
> there are *many* South African sports people that I can't stand.
> 1 It's got nothing to do with the sportsperson, it's my preference.
> 2 People living in the same country don't all like the same teams /
> athletes / popstars or whatever.
>
> Actually. Now that I've read that last bit again, let me apologise in
> advance to anyone who thinks i'm looking for an argument. Maybe I am
> not taking the comment in its proper context.
>
> Its 9:45PM and I'm waiting for the CART race to start on ESPN.
>
> Regards all,
>
> Regards all,
> istoff
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Just a quick thing about your comment about letting a competitor by...I have
raced, and there are OTHER ways other than blocking the guy behind you to
keep him behind you. Have you ever heard of being faster than your
competitor? I have no say in the argument of RS vs MS vs whoever...but you
act like blocking is the only answer.
JB
GraDee <[email hidden]> wrote in message
<84rZ6.8123$[email hidden]>...
title
>by Ausgust/September means a major drop off in spending/viewing by fans.
>
>> And real nice start Michael. If you want to be on that side so bad, start
>in
>> the number two spot. Is he the only guy whoever started like that? Runthe
cameras
>showed all this...over and over....!
>Michael has done it, Ralf has probably doneit, now they're just doing it to
>each other... it's all racing... I know people do it to me but I don'tbitch
>to the marshals afterwards since it's racing, I either find room or I don't
>get by... thats racing!!
>
>
>
>
Quoted text (22 lines)
> >Dave Pawlikowski <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:dCpZ6.1215$[email hidden]... >> It was a crap penalty. He had two tires - half the chassis on/over the >white >> line? I bet Sir Frank was boiling and he was right to be. Ralf handled it >> well. You have to give him that. Come right in, take the penalty and >leave. >> No waiting till the last possible minute. > >Um, waht are you suggesting? >Any car that is notified of a stop go has 3 laps to comply or gets a DQ. > >The official rule is that cars hae to keep inside the line. >The "gentlemans" rule is that they keep the inside line into turn 1. >Yeah, it was nitpicking, no doubt but all in all they did it as it was so >noticable since he came out much too early at a time the track was busy... >it was really flashed in their faces so they decided to take action. >Now, saying that it was done to help Michael, what utter rubbish.... >Wouldn't it have been more beneficial to pul in Michael for crossing the >line INTO the pit lane loosing him a place and making DC and Ralf both draw >nearer... thats a money spiiner for the F1 top notches, MS winning theQuoted text (12 lines)
>> other guy into the wall? Especially your own brother? > >Again, what were you watching? >Obviously you've never raced yourself... Ralf was gaining speed, what sort >of an idiot fighting for a World Championship would just let a competitor >the level of RS by? (Oh, Sorry DC, I forgot about you.) > >2nd point... Run him into the wall? What are you talking about? >Ralf began to make ground and MS moved across INFRONT of him so they were >running one behind the other meaning Ralf had to slow slightly so he didn't >run into the back of Michael thus Monty drew nearer into T1. >Didn't you watch any of the race mate? The onboards as well as other
"Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Here's why I don't like him.
> They found tracton control in the software on the car when he was atBeneton
> but they siad we are not using it so the FIA said ok. (blatent cheating)
There is absolutely no proof that they were using it, from memory they
proved they weren't using it.
> He wrecked Damon Hill on purpose to get the Championship.
Damon took a wild stab up the inside, it was obvious that MS was going to
turn in as that was the racing line.
> He contunually gets better treatment from F1. Bernie even said on screenhe
> wanted MS to win the title.
Yes, Bernie did say that, but that doesn't mean he gets preferential
treatment.
> He will not allow his teammates to race against him equally.
I can't think of any of his team mates who could ever compete against him in
a straight fight.
> He's very arrogant.
The trademark of someone who is very confident in what he does.
> Ferrari and MS were using traction control last year between gear shifts.
> That's why they had to allow it this year.
Well, this is the first time I've heard this rumour, from what Max Mosley
said it was a midfield team suspected of cheating. Besides which the time
taken to shift in F1 is so small I doubt traction could be broken, on an
upshift selecting the next gear, in effect reduces the power to the rear
wheels. So please post some actual proof that they were using TC.
> He continually pulles dangerous moves time after time on other drivers.
No more than many of the other drivers.
>
>
> btw, he was stuck in 5th gear in that race and I admit he is a very fast
> driver but to me he will never be one of the greats of F1.
But I suppose Senna is one of the all time greats, even though he was at
least equally as ruthless as Schumacher ?
>
> --
>
> Steve Levett
> Flyer in N4
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>
IMO, there's a difference between blocking and defending. The F1 drivers
have a gentlemens agreement that one move is defending, more than one is
blocking.
I recall at least one race last year when DC, acknowledged as one of the
most gentlemanly racers in F1, used the same tactics as MS at the start.
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>
"Jesse Black" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:4WtZ6.15449$X%[email hidden]...
> Just a quick thing about your comment about letting a competitor by...I
have
> raced, and there are OTHER ways other than blocking the guy behind you to
> keep him behind you. Have you ever heard of being faster than your
> competitor? I have no say in the argument of RS vs MS vs whoever...but
you
> act like blocking is the only answer.
>
> JB
Ian P wrote in message <9h5qs0$ecl$[email hidden]>...
IIRC McLaren came right out and stated that Ferrari were _not_ one of the
teams suspected of using TC. I think they used the exhaust note to see who
they thought was and wasn't.
Ben
Quoted text (10 lines)
> >> Ferrari and MS were using traction control last year between gear shifts. >> That's why they had to allow it this year. > >Well, this is the first time I've heard this rumour, from what Max Mosley >said it was a midfield team suspected of cheating. Besides which the time >taken to shift in F1 is so small I doubt traction could be broken, on an >upshift selecting the next gear, in effect reduces the power to the rear >wheels. So please post some actual proof that they were using TC. >Quoted text (14 lines)
> > > > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Here's why I don't like him. > > They found tracton control in the software on the car when he was at > Beneton > > but they siad we are not using it so the FIA said ok. (blatent cheating) > > There is absolutely no proof that they were using it, from memory they > proved they weren't using it.Quoted text (8 lines)
> > > > He wrecked Damon Hill on purpose to get the Championship. > > Damon took a wild stab up the inside, it was obvious that MS was going to > turn in as that was the racing line.Quoted text (7 lines)
> > > He contunually gets better treatment from F1. Bernie even said on screen > he > > wanted MS to win the title. > > Yes, Bernie did say that, but that doesn't mean he gets preferential > treatment.Quoted text (19 lines)
> > That's why they had to allow it this year. > > Well, this is the first time I've heard this rumour, from what Max Mosley > said it was a midfield team suspected of cheating. Besides which the time > taken to shift in F1 is so small I doubt traction could be broken, on an > upshift selecting the next gear, in effect reduces the power to the rear > wheels. So please post some actual proof that they were using TC. > > > He continually pulles dangerous moves time after time on other drivers. > > No more than many of the other drivers. > > > > > > btw, he was stuck in 5th gear in that race and I admit he is a very fast > > driver but to me he will never be one of the greats of F1. > > But I suppose Senna is one of the all time greats, even though he was at > least equally as ruthless as Schumacher ? > >Quoted text (7 lines)
> > Steve Levett > > Flyer in N4 > > -- > > Ian P > <email invalid due to spammers>Thanks Ben, I'd forgotten about that statement, but knew I'd heard that it
wasn't Ferrari suspected of it.
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>
"Ben Coleman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> Ian P wrote in message <9h5qs0$ecl$[email hidden]>...
> >
> >> Ferrari and MS were using traction control last year between gear
shifts.
> >> That's why they had to allow it this year.
> >
> >Well, this is the first time I've heard this rumour, from what Max
Mosley
> >said it was a midfield team suspected of cheating. Besides which the time
> >taken to shift in F1 is so small I doubt traction could be broken, on an
> >upshift selecting the next gear, in effect reduces the power to the rear
> >wheels. So please post some actual proof that they were using TC.
> >
>
> IIRC McLaren came right out and stated that Ferrari were _not_ one of the
> teams suspected of using TC. I think they used the exhaust note to see
who
> they thought was and wasn't.
>
> Ben
>
>
> There is absolutely no proof that they were using it, from memory they
> proved they weren't using it.
And the fact that you can clearly hear TC working, at least when fully
implemented, and the fact that Micheal did a lot of sliding...
>
> > He wrecked Damon Hill on purpose to get the Championship.
>
> Damon took a wild stab up the inside, it was obvious that MS was going to
> turn in as that was the racing line.
It was clearly a racing accident really. Its happened since without the
uproar and accusation.
> > He contunually gets better treatment from F1. Bernie even said on screen
> he
> > wanted MS to win the title.
>
> Yes, Bernie did say that, but that doesn't mean he gets preferential
> treatment.
Exactly. Let's all pretend we don't have an opinion to be "professional".
To be fake more like.
> > He will not allow his teammates to race against him equally.
>
> I can't think of any of his team mates who could ever compete against himin
> a straight fight.
True. He's better. Hands down. He's been helped a few times in certain
situations, like maybe 3 or 4 max. Big deal.
>
> > He's very arrogant.
>
> The trademark of someone who is very confident in what he does.
And how can people say this without actually knowing the guy. He's never
come off arrogant in press conferences, interviews, etc. I was doing a
freelance gig for a golfing company. There was a sports psychologist there
who used to work with drivers, Mansell and Schumacher among them. The
Mansell stories were a laugh, but he did say that Micheal was actually quite
nice. His management team however, are a different story.
>
> > Ferrari and MS were using traction control last year between gearshifts.
Ferrari did take advantage of a loophole in the regs to speed up when the
upshift was engaged, but this was perfectly legal. Sort of like
short-shifting for traction. Other teams were perfectly entitled.
Besides, all the problems occuring at present, not to mention the sound of
the engines is solid proof that legalizing these systems because they
couldn't be policed is yet another FIA complete joke.
> > He continually pulles dangerous moves time after time on other drivers.
>
> No more than many of the other drivers.
Exactly. Continual dangerous moves eh? Like a watershed of passes. Most
come up fine.
> > btw, he was stuck in 5th gear in that race and I admit he is a very fast
> > driver but to me he will never be one of the greats of F1.
>
> But I suppose Senna is one of the all time greats, even though he was at
> least equally as ruthless as Schumacher ?
Usually people will say Senna had "personality", which again, is so
difficult to judge and entirely irrelavant to a driver's ability and
accomplishments though of course in a personal sense very relevant.
However, I don't personally know Micheal actually. Roebuk is big on this
sort of thing.
cheers,
rob
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > That's why they had to allow it this year. > > Well, this is the first time I've heard this rumour, from what Max Mosley > said it was a midfield team suspected of cheating. Besides which the time > taken to shift in F1 is so small I doubt traction could be broken, on an > upshift selecting the next gear, in effect reduces the power to the rear > wheels. So please post some actual proof that they were using TC.I was watching the race that was on Speedvision at 7:30AM. Which one were
you watching?
Was MS at a different track besides the Nurburgring today? Or do they now
run F1 in two legs, like World Superbike? Maybe you saw race two? Can you
tell me when that will be on?
And I have raced. Have you?? When I have started on the front row, I did not
try to run my GSXR-750 into the side of the guy next to me, pushing him
towards the wall. Not very sporting...
How come when Mika starts on the pole, he doesn't swing across the track
like MS does? Wasn't this a big deal last year, when DC was tired of MS
doing that?
And it also seems like Ralf was not too fond of what Michael did. Maybe he
should have talked to you first...
http://www.f1i.com/articles/ARTICLE_206663.html
********************************
Dave Pawlikowski
[email hidden]
www.cushdrive.com
www.luftwaffe-experten.com
*********************************
" >
> Again, what were you watching?
> Obviously you've never raced yourself... Ralf was gaining speed, what sort
> of an idiot fighting for a World Championship would just let a competitor
> the level of RS by? (Oh, Sorry DC, I forgot about you.)
>
>
> > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> > > Here's why I don't like him.
> > > They found tracton control in the software on the car when he was at
> > Beneton
> > > but they siad we are not using it so the FIA said ok. (blatentcheating)
It was just after a rule change, it was rumoured to be too difficult to
remove the parts of the software relating to TC without a complete rewrite
so they disabled it.
to
> > turn in as that was the racing line.
>
> How about the time whem Villeneuve came up the inside, MS saw him,
> straghtened up then turn in on him on purporse to try and crash him.
He did, thats one deliberate foul, which he admitted. I'm willing to let
that slide, you're obviously not.
>
> >
> > > He contunually gets better treatment from F1. Bernie even said onscreen
They proved the car to be within the letter of the rules.
>
> >
> > > He will not allow his teammates to race against him equally.
> >
> > I can't think of any of his team mates who could ever compete againsthim
> in
> > a straight fight.
>
> There have been times when Irvine and Barichello have had to pull over to
> let him by. Eddie even said Ferrari did not want him to get the title(which
> he would of got if he had equal team standing next to MS when he broke his
> leg)
When MS came back from his broken leg he tried to help Irvine win the
championship, but Irvine was unable to put up a good enough performance. If
Irvine had got the WC, it would be more of MH losing it than EI winning it
anyway. Most times his team mates have had to pull over to let him past he
would have passed them anyway, other times he was out of position due to
external influences. Ferrari obviously pay him a lot of money to win the WC
and believe that by giving him track position they have the best position to
win the WC. Whether thats right or wrong, it is at the end of the day the
teams decision.
To be honest, some people see him as arrogant, I don't. I don't know him off
the track, and from what I've seen of him in interviews etc. he doesn't
appear arrogant.
> >
> > > Ferrari and MS were using traction control last year between gear
> shifts.
> > > That's why they had to allow it this year.
> >
> > Well, this is the first time I've heard this rumour, from what MaxMosley
> > said it was a midfield team suspected of cheating. Besides which thetime
> > taken to shift in F1 is so small I doubt traction could be broken, on an
> > upshift selecting the next gear, in effect reduces the power to the rear
> > wheels. So please post some actual proof that they were using TC.
> >
> > > He continually pulles dangerous moves time after time on otherdrivers.
> >
> > No more than many of the other drivers.
> > >
> > >
> > > btw, he was stuck in 5th gear in that race and I admit he is a veryfast
like
> him.
Well from what I've heard HHF and Corrina had broke up a while before she
dated MS, so that's not exactly stealing her is it ? ;) Anyway, I don't see
what that's got to do with our opinion of him as a driver.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > > > There is absolutely no proof that they were using it, from memory they > > proved they weren't using it. > > And you actually believe that. "We have an aid on our car but we were not > using it to go faster, honest" >Quoted text (7 lines)
> > > > > > > He wrecked Damon Hill on purpose to get the Championship. > > > > > > Damon took a wild stab up the inside, it was obvious that MS was goingQuoted text (9 lines)
> > he > > > wanted MS to win the title. > > > > Yes, Bernie did say that, but that doesn't mean he gets preferential > > treatment. > > > What about the penalties against Ferrari for an illegal car that were > dropped last season?Quoted text (7 lines)
> > > > > > He's very arrogant. > > > > The trademark of someone who is very confident in what he does. > > There's a very big difference between confidence and arrogance.Quoted text (7 lines)
> > > driver but to me he will never be one of the greats of F1. > > > > But I suppose Senna is one of the all time greats, even though he was at > > least equally as ruthless as Schumacher ? > > > > > He also stole Heinze Harolds girlfriend, just another reason why I dontQuoted text (12 lines)
> > > > Steve Levett > > > Flyer in N4 > > > > -- > > > > Ian P > > <email invalid due to spammers> > > -- > > Steve LevettDon't forget he was found *guilty* by the FIA of deliberately trying to take
out Jaques Villeneuve in an attempt to win the world title. Luckily for the
credibility and honour of F1 he failed. He was stripped of his second place
in the championship though as a punishment.
"Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9h5qs0$ecl$[email hidden]...
><snip>
>
>
Quoted text (16 lines)
> > > > > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Here's why I don't like him. > > > > They found tracton control in the software on the car when he was at > > > Beneton > > > > but they siad we are not using it so the FIA said ok. (blatent > cheating) > > > > > > There is absolutely no proof that they were using it, from memory they > > > proved they weren't using it. > > > > And you actually believe that. "We have an aid on our car but we wereQuoted text (39 lines)
> > using it to go faster, honest" > > > > It was just after a rule change, it was rumoured to be too difficult to > remove the parts of the software relating to TC without a complete rewrite > so they disabled it. > > > > > > > > > > > He wrecked Damon Hill on purpose to get the Championship. > > > > > > > > > > Damon took a wild stab up the inside, it was obvious that MS was going > to > > > turn in as that was the racing line. > > > > How about the time whem Villeneuve came up the inside, MS saw him, > > straghtened up then turn in on him on purporse to try and crash him. > > He did, thats one deliberate foul, which he admitted. I'm willing to let > that slide, you're obviously not. > > > > > > > > > He contunually gets better treatment from F1. Bernie even said on > screen > > > he > > > > wanted MS to win the title. > > > > > > Yes, Bernie did say that, but that doesn't mean he gets preferential > > > treatment. > > > > > > What about the penalties against Ferrari for an illegal car that were > > dropped last season? > > They proved the car to be within the letter of the rules. >Quoted text (9 lines)
> > > > > > > He will not allow his teammates to race against him equally. > > > > > > I can't think of any of his team mates who could ever compete against > him > > in > > > a straight fight. > > > > There have been times when Irvine and Barichello have had to pull overQuoted text (8 lines)
> > > > > > > He's very arrogant. > > > > > > The trademark of someone who is very confident in what he does. > > > > There's a very big difference between confidence and arrogance. > > To be honest, some people see him as arrogant, I don't. I don't know himQuoted text (13 lines)
> the track, and from what I've seen of him in interviews etc. he doesn't > appear arrogant. > > > > > > > > Ferrari and MS were using traction control last year between gear > > shifts. > > > > That's why they had to allow it this year. > > > > > > Well, this is the first time I've heard this rumour, from what Max > Mosley > > > said it was a midfield team suspected of cheating. Besides which the > time > > > taken to shift in F1 is so small I doubt traction could be broken, onQuoted text (13 lines)
> > > wheels. So please post some actual proof that they were using TC. > > > > > > > He continually pulles dangerous moves time after time on other > drivers. > > > > > > No more than many of the other drivers. > > > > > > > > > > > > btw, he was stuck in 5th gear in that race and I admit he is a very > fast > > > > driver but to me he will never be one of the greats of F1. > > > > > > But I suppose Senna is one of the all time greats, even though he wasQuoted text (9 lines)
> > > least equally as ruthless as Schumacher ? > > > > > > > > He also stole Heinze Harolds girlfriend, just another reason why I dont > like > > him. > > Well from what I've heard HHF and Corrina had broke up a while before she > dated MS, so that's not exactly stealing her is it ? ;) Anyway, I don'tQuoted text (10 lines)
> what that's got to do with our opinion of him as a driver. > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > Flyer in N4 > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Ian P > > > <email invalid due to spammers> > >Michael did close to the same. Not quite. The penalty was B.S.
Todd
"Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3b35f877$[email hidden]...
> That'll teach him to get too close to his brother, I always though youwere
morning's
> > F1 race.
> > The completely unwarranted penalty on Ralf was nitpicking at it'sworst.
Quoted text (10 lines)
> allowed to get 2 wheels over the line when exiting the pit. Did Michael do > the same? > > -- > > Steve Levett > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:c9oZ6.238785$[email hidden]... > > Without giving awayt he results, for those who have taped thisQuoted text (16 lines)
> > Obviously the Powers of F1 felt the status quo was being upset. If the > > leader's name hadn't been Schumacher, then you can bet the penalty > wouldn't > > have happened. > > What? Ralf's last name is what? > > uh...nevermind..... > > dave :) henrie > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----Most of these points describe about any F1 driver. Do you hate them all?
"Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Here's why I don't like him.
> They found tracton control in the software on the car when he was atBeneton
> but they siad we are not using it so the FIA said ok. (blatent cheating)
> He wrecked Damon Hill on purpose to get the Championship.
> He contunually gets better treatment from F1. Bernie even said on screenhe
--
> -------------------
> European Racing League - http://www.europeanracingleague.com
> 502 Racing co-founder - http://www.502racing.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> -------------------
> "istoff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > Hi all.
> >
> > *inserts 2 cents*...
> >
> > Being a MS fan, i still feel robbed of a good race by the officials
> > who penalised ralf. The 10-second stop and go is *such* a terrible
> > penalty that I wonder if the punishment fits the crime. It's a pity
> > that they can't just penalise him 20 seconds or have a drive-thru
> > instead.
> >
> > F1 fans seem to be divided quite firmly in the love / hate camps when
> > it comes to MS. I guess i started supporting him because of my
> > dislike of Senna. Funny thing is that Michael seems to be displaying
> > some of the traits of Senna that I didn't like then. I was a Prost
> > fan in those days and always thought that Senna was too aggressive
> > (*insert anti MS stuff*), etc.
> >
> > I guess the reason I still support him is how he has managed to
> > perform well, even on the days when he had a problem or slow(er) car.
> > I remember in Spain(i think) in the Benetton a few years ago, he got
> > stuck in 5th or 6th gear(can't remember). He lost the lead and
> > dropped back, but still managed to adjust his driving technique to
> > accomodate this major disability and still scored points. Someone
> > with a better memory will have all the details. From that day I
> > realised that I will be a fan for a long time. The aggressive moves
> > against Damon Hill & Jacques Villeneuve to try and force the
> > championships in his favor were probably the most terrible things he's
> > done in my view. I still find myself supporting him though. Funny
> > thing for me to admit is that I thought that the next hot driver and
> > possibly the person to knock him off his perch would be Montoya. I
> > might still be right on that one though.
> >
> >
> > Without meaning to get into a squabble over something so small, but I
> > had to smile when I read this next bit...
> > >fans) by motorsports fans and even some other drivers, even some
Germans
> I
> > >know can't stand him.
> > That's like saying, even some Americans can't stand Little Al or
> > Michael Andretti or whoever. I'm sure there are some Canadians who
> > can't stand Paul Tracy or Jacques Villeneuve. I'm South African and
> > there are *many* South African sports people that I can't stand.
> > 1 It's got nothing to do with the sportsperson, it's my preference.
> > 2 People living in the same country don't all like the same teams /
> > athletes / popstars or whatever.
> >
> > Actually. Now that I've read that last bit again, let me apologise in
> > advance to anyone who thinks i'm looking for an argument. Maybe I am
> > not taking the comment in its proper context.
> >
> > Its 9:45PM and I'm waiting for the CART race to start on ESPN.
> >
> > Regards all,
> >
> > Regards all,
> > istoff
>
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Quoted text (16 lines)
> wanted MS to win the title. > He will not allow his teammates to race against him equally. > He's very arrogant. > Ferrari and MS were using traction control last year between gear shifts. > That's why they had to allow it this year. > He continually pulles dangerous moves time after time on other drivers. > > > btw, he was stuck in 5th gear in that race and I admit he is a very fast > driver but to me he will never be one of the greats of F1. > > -- > > Steve Levett > Flyer in N4 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------Most driver might have 1 or 2 bad points but MS has them all, He's the only
driver I hate in F1, CART, NASCAR or TOCA.
--
Steve Levett
"Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:%cxZ6.8916$[email hidden]...
> Most of these points describe about any F1 driver. Do you hate them all?
>
>
> "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > Here's why I don't like him.
> > They found tracton control in the software on the car when he was at
> Beneton
> > but they siad we are not using it so the FIA said ok. (blatent cheating)
> > He wrecked Damon Hill on purpose to get the Championship.
> > He contunually gets better treatment from F1. Bernie even said on screen
> he
> > wanted MS to win the title.
> > He will not allow his teammates to race against him equally.
> > He's very arrogant.
> > Ferrari and MS were using traction control last year between gear
shifts.
> > That's why they had to allow it this year.
> > He continually pulles dangerous moves time after time on other drivers.
> >
> >
> > btw, he was stuck in 5th gear in that race and I admit he is a very fast
> > driver but to me he will never be one of the greats of F1.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Steve Levett
> > Flyer in N4
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > -------------------
> > European Racing League - http://www.europeanracingleague.com
> > 502 Racing co-founder - http://www.502racing.com
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > -------------------
> > "istoff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> > > Hi all.
> > >
> > > *inserts 2 cents*...
> > >
> > > Being a MS fan, i still feel robbed of a good race by the officials
> > > who penalised ralf. The 10-second stop and go is *such* a terrible
> > > penalty that I wonder if the punishment fits the crime. It's a pity
> > > that they can't just penalise him 20 seconds or have a drive-thru
> > > instead.
> > >
> > > F1 fans seem to be divided quite firmly in the love / hate camps when
> > > it comes to MS. I guess i started supporting him because of my
> > > dislike of Senna. Funny thing is that Michael seems to be displaying
> > > some of the traits of Senna that I didn't like then. I was a Prost
> > > fan in those days and always thought that Senna was too aggressive
> > > (*insert anti MS stuff*), etc.
> > >
> > > I guess the reason I still support him is how he has managed to
> > > perform well, even on the days when he had a problem or slow(er) car.
> > > I remember in Spain(i think) in the Benetton a few years ago, he got
> > > stuck in 5th or 6th gear(can't remember). He lost the lead and
> > > dropped back, but still managed to adjust his driving technique to
> > > accomodate this major disability and still scored points. Someone
> > > with a better memory will have all the details. From that day I
> > > realised that I will be a fan for a long time. The aggressive moves
> > > against Damon Hill & Jacques Villeneuve to try and force the
> > > championships in his favor were probably the most terrible things he's
> > > done in my view. I still find myself supporting him though. Funny
> > > thing for me to admit is that I thought that the next hot driver and
> > > possibly the person to knock him off his perch would be Montoya. I
> > > might still be right on that one though.
> > >
> > >
> > > Without meaning to get into a squabble over something so small, but I
> > > had to smile when I read this next bit...
> > > >fans) by motorsports fans and even some other drivers, even some
> Germans
> > I
> > > >know can't stand him.
> > > That's like saying, even some Americans can't stand Little Al or
> > > Michael Andretti or whoever. I'm sure there are some Canadians who
> > > can't stand Paul Tracy or Jacques Villeneuve. I'm South African and
> > > there are *many* South African sports people that I can't stand.
> > > 1 It's got nothing to do with the sportsperson, it's my preference.
> > > 2 People living in the same country don't all like the same teams /
> > > athletes / popstars or whatever.
> > >
> > > Actually. Now that I've read that last bit again, let me apologise in
> > > advance to anyone who thinks i'm looking for an argument. Maybe I am
> > > not taking the comment in its proper context.
> > >
> > > Its 9:45PM and I'm waiting for the CART race to start on ESPN.
> > >
> > > Regards all,
> > >
> > > Regards all,
> > > istoff
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
>
>
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
If you watch the replay you will clearly see that MS was ON the line, Ralf
was OVER the line clearly.
--
Sean Higgins
Redline Racing League
www.rrlnrs.com
Redline BGN Division
http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/RRL/
"Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:TaxZ6.8902$[email hidden]...
> Michael did close to the same. Not quite. The penalty was B.S.
>
> Todd
>
>
> "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:3b35f877$[email hidden]...
> > That'll teach him to get too close to his brother, I always though you
> were
> > allowed to get 2 wheels over the line when exiting the pit. Did Michael
do
> > the same?
> >
> > --
> >
> > Steve Levett
> >
> > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:c9oZ6.238785$[email hidden]...
> > > Without giving awayt he results, for those who have taped this
> morning's
> > > F1 race.
> > > The completely unwarranted penalty on Ralf was nitpicking at it's
> worst.
> > > Obviously the Powers of F1 felt the status quo was being upset. If
the
> > > leader's name hadn't been Schumacher, then you can bet the penalty
> > wouldn't
> > > have happened.
> > > What? Ralf's last name is what?
> > > uh...nevermind.....
> > > dave :) henrie
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
>
>
Heinz-Harald, bitte!
/Carl
Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3b3663bd$[email hidden]...
>
><snip>
>
> He also stole Heinze Harolds girlfriend, just another reason why I dontlike
> him.
><snip>
>
> Steve Levett
On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 03:38:53 +0100, "Steve Levett"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>Most driver might have 1 or 2 bad points but MS has them all, He's the only
>driver I hate in F1, CART, NASCAR or TOCA.hi,
I respect your opinion, although I don't share it. MS is the ultimate
pro. The fact that he can scheme at the political level and use power
plays to get what he wants is as much a testimony to his strength as
it is of other people's weakness.
When he retires and people go through the record books years from now,
all the complaints and sniping comments will be pretty silent compared
to the results.
Regards all.
<istoff> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 03:38:53 +0100, "Steve Levett"
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> >Most driver might have 1 or 2 bad points but MS has them all, He's theonly
That is exactly what is wrong with MS (and sport generally these days).
All they care about is results, and sportsmanship has gone out of the
window.
Quoted text (11 lines)
> >driver I hate in F1, CART, NASCAR or TOCA. > hi, > > I respect your opinion, although I don't share it. MS is the ultimate > pro. The fact that he can scheme at the political level and use power > plays to get what he wants is as much a testimony to his strength as > it is of other people's weakness. > > When he retires and people go through the record books years from now, > all the complaints and sniping comments will be pretty silent compared > to the results.
>> He wrecked Damon Hill on purpose to get the Championship.
>
>Damon took a wild stab up the inside, it was obvious that MS was going to
>turn in as that was the racing line.
Cmon man, that was the most blatant one ever. MS had hit the wall,
totalled his car. He saw Hill going to pass, then cut across the
corner at the right time. Since when do you turn into the racing line
if you've stuffed your suspension?
btw, I think he deserved to win the title, hill didn't deserve it cos
he was outdriven all year. But they didn't do much cos they (bernie
and fia) wanted ms to win the title. When he tried the same trick on
JV, he was suddenly a villain.
Rafe Mc.
>> He will not allow his teammates to race against him equally.
>
>I can't think of any of his team mates who could ever compete against him in
>a straight fight.
Barrichello at Austria? RB was on a pole position lap, then out of the
last corner, he pulls over to the pit wall and slows down. Why?
Then he's in second place, and must pull over for MS.
Just recent example anyway.
Rafe Mc
Totally unwarranted. MS crossed it as well, just not by as much. Yeah,
he broke the rules, but so did everyone else by differing margins,
until RS got pinged. Like everyone going slightly over the speed limit
until there's a cop car. You either ping everyone or none.
The punishment must also fit the crime. Why does the FIA insist on
destroying the race for several hundred million viewers? 10sec stop go
is a joke, they should either have a drive through penalty, or a
simple stop-go penalty. They also had the option of a monetary fine
after the race, but they didn't take that one either. FIA sucks.
Rafe Mc
On Sun, 24 Jun 2001 11:57:33 -0700, "Sean Higgins"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>How can you say it was unwarranted? If the rule is don't cross the white
>line and HE DID, then what's the problem? I saw Michael get ON the line but
>not cross it.
On Sun, 24 Jun 2001 21:46:21 +0200, istoff <[email hidden]> wrote:
MS v RS Start
There is a difference between blocking and barging, the former is
legal and allows the lead driver to make a single direction change
to block an overtaking move. The later is not strictly legal but is
rarely penalised as it's tough to spot and hard to define.
What MS did IMO was barging. He made his move to the
left to block Ralph, legal and fair in the current rules. When Ralph
then moved even further left and got his front tire alongside MSs
rear (meaning part of RS tire level with part of MS tire). MS then
moved further to the left forcing RS to back out of the
throttle/brake.
In most of the novice single-seater races this would have
gotten the driver a caution from the Clerk of the Course/
Race Steward.
I've often heard it debated that blocking shouldn't be allowed
off the line, only in the race itself. The reason it isn't is
that it would be hard to apply the rule all the way down the
pack as, if a driver in 12th has to veer to one side to avoid the
slow starting 10th he may well block 13th.
I personally think it could be applied sensibly to the starts but
until we have an accident, specifically caused by the pole man
blocking/barging an attacking driver who is not as accomodating
as RS (would be interesting if it were JPM) I doubt it will be
looked at.
RS Pit exit
RS was penalised for over-running the white line, which may
have been dangerous but wasn't in this case. Using the same
logic, looking purely at safety rather than trying to interpret
rules, MS is more guilty of performing a dangerous manouvre
(not the block, the barge).
If I recall, he was warned about this last year (although not an
official warning).
Barging is dangerous anywhere but is 100 times more so at the
start of a race.
Another MS incident from way back.
I'm not anti MS but I do recall very well a Sports Car race that
MS was involved in before he came to F1. Derek Warwick did
something to annoy MS and MS simply ran him off the road, not
my opinion, MS admitted it and was penalised for it.
Maxx
"Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> Cmon man, that was the most blatant one ever. MS had hit the wall,
> totalled his car. He saw Hill going to pass, then cut across the
> corner at the right time. Since when do you turn into the racing line
> if you've stuffed your suspension?
I must say that I totally agree with you. I watched the incident on video
tape recently, and was surprised that anyone could interpret it differently.
Michael was on his way to disaster well before Hill made the alleged insane
passing attempt. I'm not much of a Hill fan, either.
Ryan
Look at Earnhardt, he was hated by many for years, but now that he has died
he is suddenly the golden child of NASCAR, the best driver ever...
-Stuart Becktell
"Neil Raine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:993457455.973723@dionysos...
>
> <istoff> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (25 lines)
> > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 03:38:53 +0100, "Steve Levett" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Most driver might have 1 or 2 bad points but MS has them all, He's the > only > > >driver I hate in F1, CART, NASCAR or TOCA. > > hi, > > > > I respect your opinion, although I don't share it. MS is the ultimate > > pro. The fact that he can scheme at the political level and use power > > plays to get what he wants is as much a testimony to his strength as > > it is of other people's weakness. > > > > When he retires and people go through the record books years from now, > > all the complaints and sniping comments will be pretty silent compared > > to the results. > > That is exactly what is wrong with MS (and sport generally these days). > > All they care about is results, and sportsmanship has gone out of the > window. > > > >On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:16:53 +0100, "Neil Raine"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>That is exactly what is wrong with MS (and sport generally these days).
>
>All they care about is results, and sportsmanship has gone out of the
>window.
>i agree.
its the same for cricket, soccer, boxing, whatever. and its not
results. its *money*. its why I believe that bringing the NBA dream
team and the Pro tennis stars to the olympic games was a mistake, but
that's another debate we needn't even go into.
endorsements, tv rights and a million other things. i watched the f1
coverage this weekend and just marvelled at all the funky sunglasses
the drivers wore. every thing probably strategically placed there by
the sponsors or am i just being cynical?
I've supported MS since his benetton started challenging Senna. its
coming on for years now and I probably won't change that because of
his attitude. what would be the point? besides, there isn't a
maclaren car in gpl so who would I identify with?
back to the subject though, it was a shame that ralf was penalised so
harshly and I hope that they introduce a drive through system without
the stop and go.
regards,
Regards all,
istoff
"Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3b367522$[email hidden]...
> > They proved the car to be within the letter of the rules.
> >
> No it wasn't Ferreri borke the rules but got away with it because theysaid
> it didnt increase the performance of the car. It a shame Ralf didnt trythis
> excuse by claiming his pit exit did gaim him time.
If this is referring to the barge board measurements, they spent a hefty
number of lire with the law firms, and if I remember correctly, the boards
were reported as within the specification set to allow for manufacturing
tolerences. The FIA should have paid heed to the current state of the art
in manufacturing, or they would not have allowed a situation where a team
could build to the very edge of the tolerance.
If that's not what you're talking about then fair enough- but:
What, exactly, has the construction of the car got to do with MS? Rubens
drives the same car (more or less) are you saying Ferrari cheated with MS's
car, but not with RB's? or EI's before him?
> I am talking about before he broke his leg, a number of times Eddie had to
> move over to let MS get maximim points and thus lose several pointshimself.
If Ferrari ever had a second driver with as much racing skill as MS, then he
wouldn't be in such a position. EI and RB both knew the score when they
signed the contracts and got paid. Ferrari's goal was to win the WC, both
constructor and driver, they did so by picking an obvious #1, and a team
mate who could provide support.
That suits Ferrari as much as it suits MS. McLaren have a different
approach, it doesn't make DC a better person or driver than MS. MH is a
nicer bloke than either though ;o)
cheers
John
And the only reason MS was behind RB was because a rookie overcooked his
defending and lost MS about 4 places.
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>
"Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> >> He will not allow his teammates to race against him equally.
> >
> >I can't think of any of his team mates who could ever compete against him
in
> >a straight fight.
>
> Barrichello at Austria? RB was on a pole position lap, then out of the
> last corner, he pulls over to the pit wall and slows down. Why?
>
> Then he's in second place, and must pull over for MS.
>
> Just recent example anyway.
>
> Rafe Mc
>
I've snipped all the bits I'm not responding to, to save space ;)
> > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > > Here's why I don't like him.
<snipped>
said
> it didnt increase the performance of the car. It a shame Ralf didnt trythis
> excuse by claiming his pit exit did gaim him time.
That was initially going to be the reason for the appeal, however it turned
out that the parts were in fact not illegal
http://www.formula-one.cz/1999season/99-malaysia.html gives a bit more
insight.
>
> > > >
> > > > > He will not allow his teammates to race against him equally.
> > > >
> > > > I can't think of any of his team mates who could ever competeagainst
it
> > anyway. Most times his team mates have had to pull over to let him pasthe
> > would have passed them anyway, other times he was out of position due to
> > external influences. Ferrari obviously pay him a lot of money to win the
> WC
> > and believe that by giving him track position they have the bestposition
> to
> > win the WC. Whether thats right or wrong, it is at the end of the daythe
> > teams decision.
> >
> I am talking about before he broke his leg, a number of times Eddie had to
> move over to let MS get maximim points and thus lose several pointshimself.
A number of times ? really ? Lets see then,
Race 1 Australia, EI 1st MS 8th so not possible
Race 2 Brazil EI 5th MS 2nd, pretty unlikely on that one.
Race 3 San Marino EI engine blew. MS 1st
Race 4 Monaco EI 2nd MS 1st, but MS started ahead of EI and from memory he
pretty much blitzed the field.
Race 5 Spain EI 4th MS 3rd so thats a possibility EI would have lost 1 point
Race 6 Canada EI 3rd MS spun from lead.
Race 7 France EI 6th MS 5th EI would have lost one more point.
Thats all the races up to Silverstone which is the one MS broke his leg.
So lets go to Malaysia for the penultimate race of the season and the return
of MS. MS was leading easily after spending all the race trying to go slow
so he could return the favour to Eddie Irvine, net result was EI gained four
points at that race with the help of MS, outweighing the two points max he
could have lost by sacrificing places to MS earlier in the season.
> > > > Ian P
>
> It's clear your a MS fan and I'm not so we might as well end here, I just
> don't like him because of his driving style and from what I've seen andread
> from him, some other drivers seem to be of the same opinion.
I am a M Scumacher fan, I'm also a fan of many other F1 drivers and would
defend them as well if the need were to arise. Mostly though, I'm a big F1
fan, who also likes most other forms of motorsport. Of course us fans will
never agree on everything, but I like to be able to put my point forward as
well ;)
Please don't take any of this personally ;), I respect your opinion and like
to hear it.
I like him because of his driving style and what I've read about and by him.
Speaking of which, if you haven't already done so, the book by James Allen,
"Michael Schumacher driven to extremes", is a very good read, I'd guess even
for non fans.
>
> Steve Levett
> >=
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>
Quoted text (17 lines)
> > > > > > > > > > He contunually gets better treatment from F1. Bernie even said on > > screen > > > > he > > > > > wanted MS to win the title. > > > > > > > > Yes, Bernie did say that, but that doesn't mean he gets preferential > > > > treatment. > > > > > > > > > What about the penalties against Ferrari for an illegal car that were > > > dropped last season? > > > > They proved the car to be within the letter of the rules. > > > No it wasn't Ferreri borke the rules but got away with it because theyQuoted text (16 lines)
> > him > > > in > > > > a straight fight. > > > > > > There have been times when Irvine and Barichello have had to pull over > to > > > let him by. Eddie even said Ferrari did not want him to get the title > > (which > > > he would of got if he had equal team standing next to MS when he broke > his > > > leg) > > > > When MS came back from his broken leg he tried to help Irvine win the > > championship, but Irvine was unable to put up a good enough performance. > If > > Irvine had got the WC, it would be more of MH losing it than EI winning
Jesse Black <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:4WtZ6.15449$X%[email hidden]...
> Just a quick thing about your comment about letting a competitor by...Ihave
> raced, and there are OTHER ways other than blocking the guy behind you to
> keep him behind you. Have you ever heard of being faster than your
> competitor? I have no say in the argument of RS vs MS vs whoever...butyou
> act like blocking is the only answer.
I don't get it, if a guy is faster you let him by?
Thats the DC train of thought (see him letting RS by at the hairpin) and it
makes no sense to me.
If you are quicker than a guy but are behind him he ahs every right to fight
for position (i.e. Bernoldi). I don't understand people saying MS should
start his race, go straight to T1 and it a car nearby gets a better start
then thats it, he gives up and accepts he will now be 2nd... that's not
racing, thats a Sunday afternoon drive in the countryside.
It's not blocking, it's defending.
Blocking is when you make every attempt to move this way and that to take up
every inch of the track from your competitor. Defending is using you 1 move
allowed wisely at the right moment so the competitor can not get by, use it
at the wrong time and you fail, the guy goes past.
Dave Pawlikowski <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:YovZ6.1460$[email hidden]...
<snipped sarcasm>
> And I have raced. Have you?? When I have started on the front row, I didnot
> try to run my GSXR-750 into the side of the guy next to me, pushing him
> towards the wall. Not very sporting...
Perhaps we were watching different races....
Montoyas onboard showed Ralf was NOT pushed into the wall.
He was accelerating quicker than Michael. As Michael pulled across the track
he had to come off the gas a little and fall in behind him, that was what
let Montyoa stay left and draw nearer into T1.
The camera from T1 showed a different picture and by the very nature of it's
angle gave the impression that MS and Ralf were side by side... Montoyas
onboard and other cameras verified this was not the case and Ralf remained
in 2nd all the while.
> How come when Mika starts on the pole, he doesn't swing across the track
> like MS does? Wasn't this a big deal last year, when DC was tired of MS
> doing that?
I personally despise Mikas starts from pole, they're so sneaky. If you watch
he tends to move instantly to the middle of the track wre MS falls in behind
(assuming he is 2nd) and he gently weaves left to right. It's not a
prounounced weave as he obviously is never called for it but it's enough to
mean anyone behind has a hard time passing.
Races like brazil '99 I think was one where he did it in style. (I think
thats the one I'm thinking of). Everyone ahs their own style. Jacues dives
in and out, in and out, all over the place, but he does it, nobody
com[plains and they accept it.
As long as someone makes only 1 move I don't care if they "chop" me. if they
then move back and forth I ahve a case... if they move once then I accept
it, heck, chances are I'll do it to them next time around :-)
This though is a case like the Bernoldi should let DC throguh thing. At waht
point can a driver actually RACE before it is considered illegal? Racing is
racing, IMO, you do waht you can to prevent a driver passing until things
get dangerous, then that oversteps the boundaries. IMO, F1 is too weak,
people let others by all the time, Trulli and DC are two which stand out,
they NEVER fight for position and it is really irritating to see a guy
accept the guy behind is fast and give up rather than at least trying to
hold him off.
sort
> > of an idiot fighting for a World Championship would just let acompetitor
> > the level of RS by? (Oh, Sorry DC, I forgot about you.)
> >
> >
>
>
Quoted text (15 lines)
> And it also seems like Ralf was not too fond of what Michael did. Maybe he > should have talked to you first... > > http://www.f1i.com/articles/ARTICLE_206663.html > > > ******************************** > Dave Pawlikowski > [email hidden] > www.cushdrive.com > www.luftwaffe-experten.com > ********************************* > " > > > Again, what were you watching? > > Obviously you've never raced yourself... Ralf was gaining speed, whatI actually thought that was a clever move by DC, he knew he had no answer to
MS up front and that RS was eventually going to get by anyway. He probably
figured that by letting RS through to attack MS there was a chance MS was
going to finish 2nd and only gain a 2 point advantage over himself than by
holding RS up and MS taking the win and a 6 point gain in the championship.
Unfortunately as events unfolded it didn't work out.
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>
> I don't get it, if a guy is faster you let him by?
> Thats the DC train of thought (see him letting RS by at the hairpin) and
it
> makes no sense to me.
Rafe McAuliffe wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...
>Totally unwarranted. MS crossed it as well, just not by as much. Yeah,
>he broke the rules, but so did everyone else by differing margins,
>until RS got pinged. Like everyone going slightly over the speed limit
>until there's a cop car. You either ping everyone or none.
MS did not cross the white line at the pit exit at all. The outsides of his
tyres may have touched the end of the line, but not even a quarter of
the tyres width crossed it.
I think the rule is that once your whole wheel has crossed the line you
are deemed to have broken the rule. Or maybe its even more than
that.
I do agree that the rule is a bit silly in this context, although in the
past
people have had accidents when a car exited the pit and crossed the
line. So some sort of rule is needed. But in this case it DID ruin what
could have been a good race, needlessly. A bit like being given a 10
second penalty for "overtaking on the warm-up lap" maybe?? ;o)
Lol SpeedFreek
"Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9h86dh$s8h$[email hidden]...
> So lets go to Malaysia for the penultimate race of the season and thereturn
> of MS. MS was leading easily after spending all the race trying to go slow
> so he could return the favour to Eddie Irvine, net result was EI gainedfour
> points at that race with the help of MS, outweighing the two points max he
> could have lost by sacrificing places to MS earlier in the season.
That's exactly it. Ferrari wanted to win the Drivers championship, which is
where the kudos really lies, at least in their book. Schumacher was/is, of
course more than happy I'm sure to be given the preferential treatment when
he is the man who Ferrari pins their hopes on. The minute the situation
changed, MS left his ego in the transporter, and did everything he could on
and off the track to support the man who was now Ferrari's best chance for a
win.
That, I'm sure, is the nature of his contract with them, and he is just
being proffesional.
cheers
John
"Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9h89f0$d3g$[email hidden]...
> I actually thought that was a clever move by DC, he knew he had no answerto
> MS up front and that RS was eventually going to get by anyway. He probably
> figured that by letting RS through to attack MS there was a chance MS was
> going to finish 2nd and only gain a 2 point advantage over himself than by
> holding RS up and MS taking the win and a 6 point gain in thechampionship.
> Unfortunately as events unfolded it didn't work out.
Brundle said that DC bollocksed it up, and didn't "let" schuey2 through at
all.
Motorsport News doesn't come out til wednesday though, so I'm not up to date
with the gossip ;0)
cheers
John
In article <84rZ6.8123$[email hidden]>, GraDee <[email hidden]>
writes
><snip>
What are you on about? Ralph had to back out from being ALONGSIDE by
half a car's length for fear of being run into the pitlane wall. Ralph
had nowhere else to go. Are you sure you actually watched what
happened? You didn't actually see the 2 cars alongside each other? My
oh my! Admittedly Ralph never got the Williams level with Michael's
Ferrari, but he did have at least half a car alongside. Are you really
going to say that at no time during the start Ralph drew any part of his
car alongside Michael? Seriously? Look again. I haven't got a video
to look back at but I have no doubt about what I saw.
Whether it was correct or not is immaterial. I'm just curious how you
can believe what you actually wrote.
--
Peter Ives
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -17.06
Quoted text (9 lines)
> >2nd point... Run him into the wall? What are you talking about? >Ralf began to make ground and MS moved across INFRONT of him so they >were >running one behind the other meaning Ralf had to slow slightly so he didn't >run into the back of Michael thus Monty drew nearer into T1. >Didn't you watch any of the race mate? The onboards as well as other >cameras >showed all this...over and over....!MS did not CROSS the line. Look at it again. He was ON the line, did NOT
cross it.
--
Sean Higgins
Redline Racing League
www.rrlnrs.com
Redline BGN Division
http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/RRL/
"Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Totally unwarranted. MS crossed it as well, just not by as much. Yeah,
> he broke the rules, but so did everyone else by differing margins,
> until RS got pinged. Like everyone going slightly over the speed limit
> until there's a cop car. You either ping everyone or none.
>
> The punishment must also fit the crime. Why does the FIA insist on
> destroying the race for several hundred million viewers? 10sec stop go
> is a joke, they should either have a drive through penalty, or a
> simple stop-go penalty. They also had the option of a monetary fine
> after the race, but they didn't take that one either. FIA sucks.
>
> Rafe Mc
>
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2001 11:57:33 -0700, "Sean Higgins"
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> >How can you say it was unwarranted? If the rule is don't cross the white
> >line and HE DID, then what's the problem? I saw Michael get ON the line
but
> >not cross it.
>
>
> The punishment must also fit the crime. Why does the FIA insist on
> destroying the race for several hundred million viewers?
Because Max and Bernie think that it's exiting for fans to see stationary
cars in the pits :-)
> 10sec stop go
> is a joke, they should either have a drive through penalty, or a
> simple stop-go penalty.
Why stop the cars at all? Once was a time when a simple time penalty was
applied to a driver's race time. By doing this, there was always the option
of a finishing position to stand in the event of a successful appeal by a
team or driver, and the fans at least got to see a race.
> They also had the option of a monetary fine after the race, but theydidn't take that one either. FIA sucks.
This one never bothered drivers in the old FISA days. Mr Balestre used to
throw out $5000 fines like confetti for the most trivial of issues at most
meetings. To drivers and teams on multi million budgets, it was not a real
deterrent.
MS
Sean Higgins <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> MS did not CROSS the line. Look at it again. He was ON the line, did NOT
> cross it.
Yep. I saw the chalk dust ....You cannot be serious man....this place is the
pits :-)
MS
"Mark Seery" > Sean Higgins <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > MS did not CROSS the line. Look at it again. He was ON the line, didNOT
> > cross it.
>
> Yep. I saw the chalk dust ....You cannot be serious man....this place isthe
> pits :-)
>
> MS Could our National perception. Take football for example.(not soccer but
the American version) It has out of bounds lines on all four sides. If you
touch or step over the line you are out of bounds and the play ends. You do
not need to cross entirely over the line. Once you cross the vertical plane
of the nearest side of that line, you have crossed the line.
Using that perception, both drivers violated the rules. If the rule said
do not cross that line, then I would assume that meant to keep my tires
completely off the line. If, however, in the driver's meeting, the stewards
informed drivers that touching the line was ok, but getting two tires
completely across the line was not, then Ralf's penalty was justified. We
would have to know the limits that the stewards placed on the drivers before
we can make a complete judgement.
dave henrie
If MS was the super god, then he would have braked at a sane place,
and turned into the corner. JPM braked wayyy too late, but MS was
braking too late as well. Errors on both sides, but ms's cost him
pretty dearly.
On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:26:18 +0100, "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>And the only reason MS was behind RB was because a rookie overcooked his
>defending and lost MS about 4 places.
>Why stop the cars at all? Once was a time when a simple time penalty was
>applied to a driver's race time. By doing this, there was always the option
>of a finishing position to stand in the event of a successful appeal by a
>team or driver, and the fans at least got to see a race.
>
Well, I think that if someone has made a serious error or
infringement, they should be seen to be penalised during the race. As
well as less confusion for the viewer, having to look at the results
and not think "well, joe blogs has a 20 sec penalty, jim a 10 sec
penalty" etc. I do agree its a bit hard to reverse once an on track
penalty has been taken, if proved to be in error later.
>This one never bothered drivers in the old FISA days. Mr Balestre used to
>throw out $5000 fines like confetti for the most trivial of issues at most
>meetings. To drivers and teams on multi million budgets, it was not a real
>deterrent.
>
I think for a minor incident like this, it would say "this is a
warning, don't cross the line" without wrecking the race. Depends on
whether the money came out of RS's wallet and how much as well.
Seems like when everyone is driving at 65, 66, 67 kph in a 60 zone,
then they ping someone for doing 68 kph. It's not like he swung way
out on the track, there wasn't even anyone else there. They should
ping everyone or noone. Not that I want to see everyone with
penalties, but other drivers were guilty as well. And when has it ever
been an issue before? Not in the last 8 years or so I believe.
Rafe Mc
Quoted text (11 lines)
>That's exactly it. Ferrari wanted to win the Drivers championship, which is >where the kudos really lies, at least in their book. Schumacher was/is, of >course more than happy I'm sure to be given the preferential treatment when >he is the man who Ferrari pins their hopes on. The minute the situation >changed, MS left his ego in the transporter, and did everything he could on >and off the track to support the man who was now Ferrari's best chance for a >win. > >That, I'm sure, is the nature of his contract with them, and he is just >being proffesional. >Not at all, MS was easily able to turn into the corner, however JPM screwed
up the corner and left MS nowhere to go.
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>
"Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> If MS was the super god, then he would have braked at a sane place,
> and turned into the corner. JPM braked wayyy too late, but MS was
> braking too late as well. Errors on both sides, but ms's cost him
> pretty dearly.
>
>
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:26:18 +0100, "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> >And the only reason MS was behind RB was because a rookie overcooked his
> >defending and lost MS about 4 places.
>
Yeah, but did he bollock up on purpose ;)
Come on, give me a break, I'm trying to give other drivers besides MS some
credit here <G>
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>
"JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:wBOZ6.22803$[email hidden]...
>
> "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:9h89f0$d3g$[email hidden]...
> > I actually thought that was a clever move by DC, he knew he had no
answer
> to
> > MS up front and that RS was eventually going to get by anyway. He
probably
> > figured that by letting RS through to attack MS there was a chance MS
was
> > going to finish 2nd and only gain a 2 point advantage over himself than
by
> > holding RS up and MS taking the win and a 6 point gain in the
> championship.
> > Unfortunately as events unfolded it didn't work out.
>
> Brundle said that DC bollocksed it up, and didn't "let" schuey2 through at
> all.
> Motorsport News doesn't come out til wednesday though, so I'm not up to
date
> with the gossip ;0)
>
> cheers
> John
>
>
>
Unless you are a qualified physician / doctor who actually saw his injuries,
I'd say you have no idea whether that is true or not. You can be sure that
if it was me, I would take absolutely no risk at damaging my leg even more
by coming back to early, whether it was for myself or someone else.
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>
"Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> >That's exactly it. Ferrari wanted to win the Drivers championship, which
is
> >where the kudos really lies, at least in their book. Schumacher was/is,
of
> >course more than happy I'm sure to be given the preferential treatment
when
> >he is the man who Ferrari pins their hopes on. The minute the situation
> >changed, MS left his ego in the transporter, and did everything he could
on
> >and off the track to support the man who was now Ferrari's best chance
for a
> >win.
> >
> >That, I'm sure, is the nature of his contract with them, and he is just
> >being proffesional.
> >
>
> MS sure didn't want to come back to f1 as support for EI, had to have
> his arm (and leg?) twisted to get hime back. He kept on saying its not
> right, i'm still a bit sore, but it was a load of malarkey. MS would
> have been back 2, maybe even 3 races before Malaysia if he had had a
> chance at the title. No chance meant he wasn't interested. Only made
> it back because of the enormous pressure from the media and Ferrari,
> for both EI's chances and the constructor's.
>
> That's how I (and many others!) saw it anyway.
>
> Rafe Mc
>
Ian P <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9h89f0$d3g$[email hidden]...
> I actually thought that was a clever move by DC, he knew he had no answerto
> MS up front and that RS was eventually going to get by anyway. He probably
> figured that by letting RS through to attack MS there was a chance MS was
> going to finish 2nd and only gain a 2 point advantage over himself than by
> holding RS up and MS taking the win and a 6 point gain in thechampionship.
> Unfortunately as events unfolded it didn't work out.
Yeah, ok, fine, we can all say DC was going too loose in the end and all
that but come on...
It doesn't matter that the situation, if you're racing for position then you
just don't do that... I've criticised Trulli for doing the same thing.
If you don't defend a position mo matter that the circumstances then it is
not racing... it is a drive around the park.
I hate that F1 has become so weak with a a band of driver without the will
or skill to either defend, attack, change styles or basically two drivers
facing up to each other... that is racing... a race is a number of people
competing for the best position achievable... if they don't even try to hold
onto their position it's only a Sunday drive and F1 is strongly loosing it's
appeal to me by these number of drivers and the fans who defend them
(nothing against them).
JM <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:wBOZ6.22803$[email hidden]...
>
> "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:9h89f0$d3g$[email hidden]...
> > I actually thought that was a clever move by DC, he knew he had noanswer
> to
> > MS up front and that RS was eventually going to get by anyway. Heprobably
> > figured that by letting RS through to attack MS there was a chance MSwas
> > going to finish 2nd and only gain a 2 point advantage over himself thanby
date
> with the gossip ;0)
This'll sound like bait (sorry for that), but Martin Brundle is a biased
twat.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > holding RS up and MS taking the win and a 6 point gain in the > championship. > > Unfortunately as events unfolded it didn't work out. > > Brundle said that DC bollocksed it up, and didn't "let" schuey2 through at > all. > Motorsport News doesn't come out til wednesday though, so I'm not up to
Peter Ives <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
didn't
Well from what I saw at the start with the camera based at T1 it looked as
though Ralf was along side Michael.
From Montoyas onboard it didn't look like it, and that camera was alongside
so it wasn't able to play as much tricks on the eyes as the camera at T1.
It showed Ralf getting an OK start then drastically outpowering Michael as
he was moving across the track, all of a sudden Michael pulled in front and
Ralf backed off so he wouldn't go into the rear of him as was evident by the
way Montoya gained ground on both of them at this point. That's all from his
onboard camera and as I said, that looked like a much better perspective
than the first one.
But come on, trying to run a guy into the wall at 150mph+? In other words
attempted murder...give me a break...! It's a normal "racing" move... a game
of chicken.... close the gap until the guy backs out, if he doesn't he'll
have the inside line.... but, as I repeat...so many real racing moves are
now frowned upon by most...it's very sad.
Quoted text (9 lines)
> In article <84rZ6.8123$[email hidden]>, GraDee <[email hidden]> > writes > > > <snip> > > > >2nd point... Run him into the wall? What are you talking about? > >Ralf began to make ground and MS moved across INFRONT of him so they > >were > >running one behind the other meaning Ralf had to slow slightly so heQuoted text (17 lines)
> >run into the back of Michael thus Monty drew nearer into T1. > >Didn't you watch any of the race mate? The onboards as well as other > >cameras > >showed all this...over and over....! > > What are you on about? Ralph had to back out from being ALONGSIDE by > half a car's length for fear of being run into the pitlane wall. Ralph > had nowhere else to go. Are you sure you actually watched what > happened? You didn't actually see the 2 cars alongside each other? My > oh my! Admittedly Ralph never got the Williams level with Michael's > Ferrari, but he did have at least half a car alongside. Are you really > going to say that at no time during the start Ralph drew any part of his > car alongside Michael? Seriously? Look again. I haven't got a video > to look back at but I have no doubt about what I saw. > > Whether it was correct or not is immaterial. I'm just curious how you > can believe what you actually wrote.
"GraDee" wrote
> >
> > Brundle said that DC bollocksed it up...
>
> This'll sound like bait (sorry for that), but Martin Brundle is a biasedtwat.
>
Well F1drivers (& ex F1) tend to be critical. Martin knows it is a tough
sport and mistakes are punished hard.
Martin was the forgotten driver of 1992, when Mansell & Patrese dominated in
theWilliams and the up & coming Schumacher won his first race. Martin scored
points in his last 9 races of that season finishing
3rd,3rd,4th,5th,4th,2nd,4th,3rd,3rd outscoring Schumacher (and Patrese) in
the second half of the season.
His reward was that he was to be replaced by Patrese who was blitzed by
Schumacher in the Benetton (though Schuey scored 1 less point in 93) and
went down to a lower team with Ligier.
Who knows what _might_ have happened if he had stayed with Benneton
following such a promising set of results. His career then left him without
a competitive car.
So maybe Martin may seem a bit over critical at times, but he knows just how
tough F1 is.
Tony
being that I couldn't care less about this "debate" but...
Ian P, your so bloody biased it's sad.
If you can really only see every single incident from the MS \ Ferrai angle,
then I suppose you believe everything from the perspective of your favorite
political party etc.
I suggest for your own sake (and all of ours as well) you learn to se things
from a 3rd party outside objective perspective.
Ian P <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9hafjr$lqt$[email hidden]...
> Not at all, MS was easily able to turn into the corner, however JPMscrewed
his
> > >defending and lost MS about 4 places.
> >
>
>
Quoted text (19 lines)
> up the corner and left MS nowhere to go. > > -- > > Ian P > <email invalid due to spammers> > > > "Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > If MS was the super god, then he would have braked at a sane place, > > and turned into the corner. JPM braked wayyy too late, but MS was > > braking too late as well. Errors on both sides, but ms's cost him > > pretty dearly. > > > > > > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:26:18 +0100, "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >And the only reason MS was behind RB was because a rookie overcookedSteve Levett wrote:
>
> Most driver might have 1 or 2 bad points but MS has them all, He's the only
> driver I hate in F1, CART, NASCAR or TOCA.
Go, Schumi, go! ;)
...and you really should open the top button of your shirt.
--
l8er
ronny
Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change
to take effect. Reboot now?
"Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9havf6$gad$[email hidden]...
There's no doubt in my mind that had MS come back from injury and insisted
on being the #1 regardless of EI's chances, you'd be writing now just how
selfish and arrogant he was being. He just can't win with people like you
can he? Whatever he does, he's painted the villain.
At least he has a passion for motorsports, not like that robot DC.
cheers
John
Quoted text (11 lines)
> > MS sure didn't want to come back to f1 as support for EI, had to have > > his arm (and leg?) twisted to get hime back. He kept on saying its not > > right, i'm still a bit sore, but it was a load of malarkey. MS would > > have been back 2, maybe even 3 races before Malaysia if he had had a > > chance at the title. No chance meant he wasn't interested. Only made > > it back because of the enormous pressure from the media and Ferrari, > > for both EI's chances and the constructor's. > > > > That's how I (and many others!) saw it anyway. > > > > Rafe Mc
"GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:E%5_6.8539$[email hidden]...
>
> This'll sound like bait (sorry for that), but Martin Brundle is a biased
> twat.
>
>
I'm just trying to figure out if you think he's a biased twat cos you're a
DC fan or an MS fan :D
cheers
John
Well, IMO that depends on what you're racing for. If it's just the best
position for that race then you maybe right. DC is however a championship
contender and must drive in a way that will help him win the championship.
As many people have said, when Bernoldi held him up at Monaco, both drivers
lost time. By letting Ralf through I believe he lost less time than by
fighting him and thus had a better chance of scoring more points in that
race.
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>
"GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:W_5_6.8538$[email hidden]...
>
> Ian P <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:9h89f0$d3g$[email hidden]...
> > I actually thought that was a clever move by DC, he knew he had no
answer
> to
> > MS up front and that RS was eventually going to get by anyway. He
probably
> > figured that by letting RS through to attack MS there was a chance MS
was
> > going to finish 2nd and only gain a 2 point advantage over himself than
by
> > holding RS up and MS taking the win and a 6 point gain in the
> championship.
> > Unfortunately as events unfolded it didn't work out.
>
> Yeah, ok, fine, we can all say DC was going too loose in the end and all
> that but come on...
> It doesn't matter that the situation, if you're racing for position then
you
> just don't do that... I've criticised Trulli for doing the same thing.
> If you don't defend a position mo matter that the circumstances then it is
> not racing... it is a drive around the park.
> I hate that F1 has become so weak with a a band of driver without the will
> or skill to either defend, attack, change styles or basically two drivers
> facing up to each other... that is racing... a race is a number of people
> competing for the best position achievable... if they don't even try to
hold
> onto their position it's only a Sunday drive and F1 is strongly loosing
it's
> appeal to me by these number of drivers and the fans who defend them
> (nothing against them).
>
>
>
I've just watched the start again on video. Yes MS does move across, but
from the T1 camera there was still half a cars width between RS and the
wall. If Ralf had stayed on the inside he may have passed MS, but he would
have been way too tight for T1 and would have had to back off a lot to make
the turn. At no time did I see MS push Ralf so tight that there was any
danger of him touching the wall.
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>
"GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:o56_6.8541$[email hidden]...
> Well from what I saw at the start with the camera based at T1 it looked as
> though Ralf was along side Michael.
> From Montoyas onboard it didn't look like it, and that camera was
alongside
> so it wasn't able to play as much tricks on the eyes as the camera at T1.
>
> It showed Ralf getting an OK start then drastically outpowering Michael as
> he was moving across the track, all of a sudden Michael pulled in front
and
> Ralf backed off so he wouldn't go into the rear of him as was evident by
the
> way Montoya gained ground on both of them at this point. That's all from
his
> onboard camera and as I said, that looked like a much better perspective
> than the first one.
>
> But come on, trying to run a guy into the wall at 150mph+? In other words
> attempted murder...give me a break...! It's a normal "racing" move... a
game
> of chicken.... close the gap until the guy backs out, if he doesn't he'll
> have the inside line.... but, as I repeat...so many real racing moves are
> now frowned upon by most...it's very sad.
>
>
Possibly because he's DC's manager ;)
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>
"JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:7_7_6.28577$[email hidden]...
>
> "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:E%5_6.8539$[email hidden]...
> >
>
> > This'll sound like bait (sorry for that), but Martin Brundle is a biased
> > twat.
> >
> >
>
> I'm just trying to figure out if you think he's a biased twat cos you're a
> DC fan or an MS fan :D
>
> cheers
> John
>
>
>
Firstly, lighten up, it's a discussion forum where I can discuss my opinion,
if you think it's biased you'll just have to deal with it. How you can say
I'm biased from a few posts here is beyond me.
That out of the way, I support many drivers / teams (see my below posts
sticking up for DC who I don't even support) If you can't handle the fact
that JPM made a mistake that cost him and MS a lot of places then it is you
who are extremely biased. When MS makes a mistake I don't try and defend it.
JPM lost control of his car, slid and caused MS to have to change his line
thus getting off the brakes, MS still managed to start the turn in to the
corner but was unable to make it only because JPM was there. What was MS
supposed to do, sit behind JPM all race or try an overtaking move,
remembering that JPM's tyres were going into their bad phase and he was
considerably slower than he had been at that space in the race yet still
tried to brake too late and off the racing line
JPM is a rookie in F1 and is making some rookie mistakes, he's goofed up at
least 4 times in 9 races. I'm sure that as he gets used to driving in F1 he
will be a major contender, I just don't see it happening this year.
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>
"Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:aJ7_6.100185$[email hidden]...
> being that I couldn't care less about this "debate" but...
>
> Ian P, your so bloody biased it's sad.
>
> If you can really only see every single incident from the MS \ Ferrai
angle,
> then I suppose you believe everything from the perspective of your
favorite
> political party etc.
>
> I suggest for your own sake (and all of ours as well) you learn to se
things
> from a 3rd party outside objective perspective.
>
>
> Ian P <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:9hafjr$lqt$[email hidden]...
> > Not at all, MS was easily able to turn into the corner, however JPM
> screwed
> > up the corner and left MS nowhere to go.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Ian P
> > <email invalid due to spammers>
> >
> >
> > "Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> > > If MS was the super god, then he would have braked at a sane place,
> > > and turned into the corner. JPM braked wayyy too late, but MS was
> > > braking too late as well. Errors on both sides, but ms's cost him
> > > pretty dearly.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:26:18 +0100, "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > >
> > > >And the only reason MS was behind RB was because a rookie overcooked
> his
> > > >defending and lost MS about 4 places.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Hang on a sec, I didn't say that !!
Looks like you misquoted me ;)
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>
"JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:FY7_6.28573$[email hidden]...
>
> "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:9havf6$gad$[email hidden]...
>
> > > MS sure didn't want to come back to f1 as support for EI, had to have
> > > his arm (and leg?) twisted to get hime back. He kept on saying its not
> > > right, i'm still a bit sore, but it was a load of malarkey. MS would
> > > have been back 2, maybe even 3 races before Malaysia if he had had a
> > > chance at the title. No chance meant he wasn't interested. Only made
> > > it back because of the enormous pressure from the media and Ferrari,
> > > for both EI's chances and the constructor's.
> > >
> > > That's how I (and many others!) saw it anyway.
> > >
> > > Rafe Mc
>
>
> There's no doubt in my mind that had MS come back from injury and insisted
> on being the #1 regardless of EI's chances, you'd be writing now just how
> selfish and arrogant he was being. He just can't win with people like you
> can he? Whatever he does, he's painted the villain.
> At least he has a passion for motorsports, not like that robot DC.
>
> cheers
> John
>
>
>
Rafe McAuliffe wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...
>>
>
>I think for a minor incident like this, it would say "this is a
>warning, don't cross the line" without wrecking the race. Depends on
>whether the money came out of RS's wallet and how much as well.
>
They should make it simple, put tyre spikes along the line. That should
liven things up!
Ben
I can't comment on the JPM incident, as I didn't see it (just got
speedvision right before Le Mans)
I'm just saying that judging by reading all your posts in this thread, that
your only; seeing things from one perspective. It seems you want to defend
Michael so much you went on about the JPM for paragraphs even though I never
mentioned it, saying shumey is great and it was JPM's fault.
Also I don't necessarily mind Rueben's moving over for micheal in concept of
team racing... but when it's the drivers champs that are really important,
then perhaps we shouldn't have 2 driver teams if one is only there to block
over cars and such. not to mention that he is chasing down the most wins
ever by racing for teams that encourage his teammates to let him win. Sure
he would have probably done it anyway. but I believe is tarnishes the
record. "He would have passed him anyway," it isn't racing, if that we're
the case why dos he have to move over for him? Since when in a real race did
the leader move over just cause the other guy is faster?
Ian P <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9hb3av$jos$[email hidden]...
> Firstly, lighten up, it's a discussion forum where I can discuss myopinion,
> if you think it's biased you'll just have to deal with it. How you can say
> I'm biased from a few posts here is beyond me.
> That out of the way, I support many drivers / teams (see my below posts
> sticking up for DC who I don't even support) If you can't handle the fact
> that JPM made a mistake that cost him and MS a lot of places then it isyou
> who are extremely biased. When MS makes a mistake I don't try and defendit.
at
> least 4 times in 9 races. I'm sure that as he gets used to driving in F1he
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >And the only reason MS was behind RB was because a rookieovercooked
Quoted text (10 lines)
> > JPM lost control of his car, slid and caused MS to have to change his line > thus getting off the brakes, MS still managed to start the turn in to the > corner but was unable to make it only because JPM was there. What was MS > supposed to do, sit behind JPM all race or try an overtaking move, > remembering that JPM's tyres were going into their bad phase and he was > considerably slower than he had been at that space in the race yet still > tried to brake too late and off the racing line > > JPM is a rookie in F1 and is making some rookie mistakes, he's goofed upQuoted text (46 lines)
> will be a major contender, I just don't see it happening this year. > > -- > > Ian P > <email invalid due to spammers> > > > "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:aJ7_6.100185$[email hidden]... > > being that I couldn't care less about this "debate" but... > > > > Ian P, your so bloody biased it's sad. > > > > If you can really only see every single incident from the MS \ Ferrai > angle, > > then I suppose you believe everything from the perspective of your > favorite > > political party etc. > > > > I suggest for your own sake (and all of ours as well) you learn to se > things > > from a 3rd party outside objective perspective. > > > > > > Ian P <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:9hafjr$lqt$[email hidden]... > > > Not at all, MS was easily able to turn into the corner, however JPM > > screwed > > > up the corner and left MS nowhere to go. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Ian P > > > <email invalid due to spammers> > > > > > > > > > "Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > If MS was the super god, then he would have braked at a sane place, > > > > and turned into the corner. JPM braked wayyy too late, but MS was > > > > braking too late as well. Errors on both sides, but ms's cost him > > > > pretty dearly. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:26:18 +0100, "Ian P" <[email hidden]>Quoted text (9 lines)
> > his > > > > >defending and lost MS about 4 places. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >lol...no more boring f1 races!
>
>They should make it simple, put tyre spikes along the line. That should
>liven things up!
>
>Ben
>
>There's no doubt in my mind that had MS come back from injury and insisted
>on being the #1 regardless of EI's chances, you'd be writing now just how
>selfish and arrogant he was being. He just can't win with people like you
>can he? Whatever he does, he's painted the villain.
>At least he has a passion for motorsports, not like that robot DC.
He obviously couldn't come back and be no.1, for the reasons you
stated. But he did delay by about 1 - 1.5 mths EXTRA from when he
would have come back if he had a chance at the championship. But I
must admit to his credit that he did come back to support EI in the
end.
And what kind of person am I? I was a big MS and Ferrari fan until the
end of 99, but MS always does something new to dirty his name IMO.
Rafe Mc
I agree JPM outbraked himself majorly, but I still believe that MS
went in way too deep as well. I definitely think he had to have a go,
that's what racing's all about. Nothing worse than when drivers sit
back and wait for someone else to make a mistake....ummmm McLaren?
Mika and DC are the worst with that, like DC at Monaco not being
willing to commit to a move.
One thing about JPM, he certainly is entertaining to watch!
Rafe Mc
Quoted text (11 lines)
>JPM lost control of his car, slid and caused MS to have to change his line >thus getting off the brakes, MS still managed to start the turn in to the >corner but was unable to make it only because JPM was there. What was MS >supposed to do, sit behind JPM all race or try an overtaking move, >remembering that JPM's tyres were going into their bad phase and he was >considerably slower than he had been at that space in the race yet still >tried to brake too late and off the racing line > >JPM is a rookie in F1 and is making some rookie mistakes, he's goofed up at >least 4 times in 9 races. I'm sure that as he gets used to driving in F1 he >will be a major contender, I just don't see it happening this year.He sure kicks James Allen's arse!
Bring back Murray and all his stuffups!
>
>This'll sound like bait (sorry for that), but Martin Brundle is a biased
>twat.
>
Come back murray...dont leave us! :)
I reckon Martin is good too.
Quoted text (9 lines)
| He sure kicks James Allen's arse! | | Bring back Murray and all his stuffups! | | > | >This'll sound like bait (sorry for that), but Martin Brundle is a biased | >twat. | > |Everyone has too much on the line to have a go at a move, even JPM's
getting muzzled. Most drivers have too much pressure to keep the car
out, with the sponsors details, circulating the track for TV time.
CART is getting stronger by the year, with real racing and overtaking
(even though they have too many yellow flags, and those short ovals
suck). Pity that the FIA have an agreement with CART for only oval
tracks outside North America now.
Rafe Mc
Quoted text (15 lines)
>Yeah, ok, fine, we can all say DC was going too loose in the end and all >that but come on... >It doesn't matter that the situation, if you're racing for position then you >just don't do that... I've criticised Trulli for doing the same thing. >If you don't defend a position mo matter that the circumstances then it is >not racing... it is a drive around the park. >I hate that F1 has become so weak with a a band of driver without the will >or skill to either defend, attack, change styles or basically two drivers >facing up to each other... that is racing... a race is a number of people >competing for the best position achievable... if they don't even try to hold >onto their position it's only a Sunday drive and F1 is strongly loosing it's >appeal to me by these number of drivers and the fans who defend them >(nothing against them). > >I didn't chop your address out of the previous message- sorry for that. The
response to your post never shoed up in my browser until you replied to it,
so I replied to the previous poster (hence the >> not >) but neglected to
tidy up the header details.
soryy about the confusion ;)
John (now I'm top posting on top of it all)
"Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9hb3a6$rac$[email hidden]...
have
> > > > his arm (and leg?) twisted to get hime back. He kept on saying itsnot
> > > > right, i'm still a bit sore, but it was a load of malarkey. MS would
> > > > have been back 2, maybe even 3 races before Malaysia if he had had a
> > > > chance at the title. No chance meant he wasn't interested. Onlymade
insisted
> > on being the #1 regardless of EI's chances, you'd be writing now justhow
> > selfish and arrogant he was being. He just can't win with people likeyou
Quoted text (16 lines)
> Hang on a sec, I didn't say that !! > Looks like you misquoted me ;) > > -- > > Ian P > <email invalid due to spammers> > > > "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:FY7_6.28573$[email hidden]... > > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:9havf6$gad$[email hidden]... > > > > > > MS sure didn't want to come back to f1 as support for EI, had toQuoted text (9 lines)
> > > > it back because of the enormous pressure from the media and Ferrari, > > > > for both EI's chances and the constructor's. > > > > > > > > That's how I (and many others!) saw it anyway. > > > > > > > > Rafe Mc > > > > > > There's no doubt in my mind that had MS come back from injury andQuoted text (10 lines)
> > can he? Whatever he does, he's painted the villain. > > At least he has a passion for motorsports, not like that robot DC. > > > > cheers > > John > > > > > > > >
"Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Well if I was feeling facaetious I could suggest taking a sledgehammer to
both your legs and seeing how keen you are to get back to sledgehammer
juggling.
Foggy broke bones in his arm and as a result can never race bikes again- how
do you *know* MS was fit enough to go race disance in an F1 car before he
did so?
I'm not an MS fan in particular, I just don't see what the fuss is about 99%
of the time.
cheers
John
Quoted text (12 lines)
> He obviously couldn't come back and be no.1, for the reasons you > stated. But he did delay by about 1 - 1.5 mths EXTRA from when he > would have come back if he had a chance at the championship. But I > must admit to his credit that he did come back to support EI in the > end. > > And what kind of person am I? I was a big MS and Ferrari fan until the > end of 99, but MS always does something new to dirty his name IMO. > > Rafe Mc > >
"Ashley McConnell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9hcdga$frc$[email hidden]...
> Come back murray...dont leave us! :)
>
> I reckon Martin is good too.
>
It's a shame, as I felt Murray and Martin make a good combination- Murray
has the enthusiasm to make a 60 lap procession seem exciting- he's said
himself that "There's no such thing as a dull F1 race".
Then Martin gets to say "no, it's not that, murray," (insert facts here).
good stuff, I'll miss murray that's for sure.
cheers
John
"Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
You can say the same about F3, F3000 etc- the lower echelons always seem to
have "better" racing. When/if CART gets serious money behind it, then it'll
be just as "boring" as F1, but without the talent.
:P
John
Quoted text (10 lines)
> Everyone has too much on the line to have a go at a move, even JPM's > getting muzzled. Most drivers have too much pressure to keep the car > out, with the sponsors details, circulating the track for TV time. > > CART is getting stronger by the year, with real racing and overtaking > (even though they have too many yellow flags, and those short ovals > suck). Pity that the FIA have an agreement with CART for only oval > tracks outside North America now. > > Rafe Mc
No problem, just wanted to clear up what I didn't say :)
I normally top post, looks like I'll have the netcops after me ;)
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>
"JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Urj_6.20507$[email hidden]...
> I didn't chop your address out of the previous message- sorry for that.
The
> response to your post never shoed up in my browser until you replied to
it,
> so I replied to the previous poster (hence the >> not >) but neglected to
> tidy up the header details.
> soryy about the confusion ;)
>
> John (now I'm top posting on top of it all)
>
>
"Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:zRb_6.100519$[email hidden]...
> I can't comment on the JPM incident, as I didn't see it (just got
> speedvision right before Le Mans)
>
> I'm just saying that judging by reading all your posts in this thread,that
> your only; seeing things from one perspective.
What other perspective is there? I watched the incident again last night and
JPM is the only one going into that corner with wheels locked and smoking.
MS was trying to pass him, after all it's a motor race. If JPM had made the
corner MS would have probably made the pass and would most certainly not
have gone off the track.
Does MS make mistakes ? Yep, he most certainly does, he very often will over
drive the car when pushing hard trying to get a jump on someone during
pitstops. He has thrown away a few wins by doing just that. He's also spun a
few times when not even under pressure, you only need to look back to
Indianapolis last year when he spun, he was lucky not to stall the car and
lose the win again.
>It seems you want to defend
> Michael so much you went on about the JPM for paragraphs even though Inever
> mentioned it, saying shumey is great and it was JPM's fault.
If you had read all my posts in this thread you would have seen me defending
DC, a driver who I don't like at all. If I belive someone deserves defending
I'll defend them, whether I like them or not. If that makes me seem biased
to you, well in the words of JPM "sorry!"
You joined this thread and said I'm biased because I was defending MS, well
yes I was, but at least i've seen the incidents in question and have a
modicum of proof to back up what I think.
>
> Also I don't necessarily mind Rueben's moving over for micheal in conceptof
> team racing... but when it's the drivers champs that are really important,
> then perhaps we shouldn't have 2 driver teams if one is only there toblock
> over cars and such. not to mention that he is chasing down the most wins
> ever by racing for teams that encourage his teammates to let him win. Sure
> he would have probably done it anyway. but I believe is tarnishes the
> record. "He would have passed him anyway," it isn't racing, if that we're
> the case why dos he have to move over for him? Since when in a real racedid
> the leader move over just cause the other guy is faster?
Team orders have been in F1 for many years. Any team can use their drivers
how they see fit.
This is not quite the same, but in Melbourne 98 DC and MH had a drivers
agreement (rather than a team agreement) that whoever was first into T1
would win the race (unless they weren't competitive enough with reagards to
the other teams). Whether the team makes that decision or the drivers do,
the outcome is the same. Do I necesarily agree with it? not really but it's
the team who make the decision and as it's not illegal in F1 who are we to
tell them otherwise.
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>
it'll
>be just as "boring" as F1, but without the talent.
Ooooh, dangerous one there. Where's my 10 foot pole?
In article <9h60jl$1lf$[email hidden]>, "Ian P" <[email hidden]>
writes:
>> How about the time whem Villeneuve came up the inside, MS saw him,
>> straghtened up then turn in on him on purporse to try and crash him.
>
>He did, thats one deliberate foul, which he admitted. I'm willing to let
>that slide, you're obviously not.
I didn't realize he had even admitted that. Do you happen to have a link to
that interview?
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
"Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> it'll
> >be just as "boring" as F1, but without the talent.
>
> Ooooh, dangerous one there. Where's my 10 foot pole?
>
I'm waiting for the three billygoats to come by any minute so shush it a bit
won't you ;o)
cheers
John
In article <[email hidden]>, EldredP
<[email hidden]> writes
There's a program called 'Speed' here in the UK on sundays where one
Jeremy Clarkson got to look into the psychology of separating the
winners from the also-rans. During the program he got to chat with
Michael who appeared to openly admit that he would have been glad to
have put JV out of the race during that incident.
--
Peter Ives
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -17.06
Quoted text (14 lines)
>In article <9h60jl$1lf$[email hidden]>, "Ian P" ><[email hidden]> >writes: > >>> How about the time whem Villeneuve came up the inside, MS saw him, >>> straghtened up then turn in on him on purporse to try and crash him. >> >>He did, thats one deliberate foul, which he admitted. I'm willing to let >>that slide, you're obviously not. > >I didn't realize he had even admitted that. Do you happen to have a link to >that interview? > >EldredIn article <o56_6.8541$[email hidden]>, GraDee <[email hidden]>
writes
T1 perhaps, but I also remember seeing it from an overhead camera and he
looked alongside with that one.
Why would Ralph be continually moving over as Michael moved over unless
he was worried about the 2 cars making contact? If he had never have
been alongside then he would have had no need to keep moving over
towards the wall like he did - he could have got behind Michael for that
extra bit of tow - until he felt he'd better back off because he didn't
want to be squeezed anymore. That wall was getting a bit too close for
comfort.
Of course there's an element of chicken and there's no way Michael would
deliberately drive his own brother, or anyone else for that matter, into
the pit wall. However, the one nearest the wall would have a better
idea how close that wall was getting. In this case Ralph.
--
Peter Ives
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -17.06
Quoted text (40 lines)
> >Peter Ives <[email hidden]> wrote in >message >news:[email hidden]... >> In article <84rZ6.8123$[email hidden]>, GraDee ><[email hidden]> >> writes >> > >> <snip> >> > >> >2nd point... Run him into the wall? What are you talking about? >> >Ralf began to make ground and MS moved across INFRONT of him so >they >> >were >> >running one behind the other meaning Ralf had to slow slightly so he >didn't >> >run into the back of Michael thus Monty drew nearer into T1. >> >Didn't you watch any of the race mate? The onboards as well as other >> >cameras >> >showed all this...over and over....! >> >> What are you on about? Ralph had to back out from being ALONGSIDE >by >> half a car's length for fear of being run into the pitlane wall. Ralph >> had nowhere else to go. Are you sure you actually watched what >> happened? You didn't actually see the 2 cars alongside each other? My >> oh my! Admittedly Ralph never got the Williams level with Michael's >> Ferrari, but he did have at least half a car alongside. Are you really >> going to say that at no time during the start Ralph drew any part of his >> car alongside Michael? Seriously? Look again. I haven't got a video >> to look back at but I have no doubt about what I saw. >> >> Whether it was correct or not is immaterial. I'm just curious how you >> can believe what you actually wrote. > >Well from what I saw at the start with the camera based at T1 it looked as >though Ralf was along side Michael. >From Montoyas onboard it didn't look like it, and that camera was alongside >so it wasn't able to play as much tricks on the eyes as the camera at T1. >Quoted text (7 lines)
>It showed Ralf getting an OK start then drastically outpowering Michael as >he was moving across the track, all of a sudden Michael pulled in front and >Ralf backed off so he wouldn't go into the rear of him as was evident by the >way Montoya gained ground on both of them at this point. That's all from his >onboard camera and as I said, that looked like a much better perspective >than the first one. >Quoted text (7 lines)
>But come on, trying to run a guy into the wall at 150mph+? In other words >attempted murder...give me a break...! It's a normal "racing" move... a game >of chicken.... close the gap until the guy backs out, if he doesn't he'll >have the inside line.... but, as I repeat...so many real racing moves are >now frowned upon by most...it's very sad. > >In article <[email hidden]>,
Peter Ives <[email hidden]> writes:
Well, there's a big difference between saying "We came together by
accident, and had he been knocked out, leaving me to win the Championship,
I can't say I'd be sorry about it. I'll take the win however it comes",
for instance, and saying "yeah, I tried to take him out so I could win".
It would be important to clarify which one he meant before you say he
"admitted" that he rammed JV on purpose.
And FWIW, at the time, I sure thought he did it in purpose. His in-car
cam seemed to show him deliberately turning his wheel so as to hit JV.
Marc
Quoted text (20 lines)
> In article <[email hidden]>, EldredP > <[email hidden]> writes >>In article <9h60jl$1lf$[email hidden]>, "Ian P" >><[email hidden]> >>writes: >> >>>> How about the time whem Villeneuve came up the inside, MS saw him, >>>> straghtened up then turn in on him on purporse to try and crash him. >>> >>>He did, thats one deliberate foul, which he admitted. I'm willing to let >>>that slide, you're obviously not. >> >>I didn't realize he had even admitted that. Do you happen to have a link to >>that interview? > > There's a program called 'Speed' here in the UK on sundays where one > Jeremy Clarkson got to look into the psychology of separating the > winners from the also-rans. During the program he got to chat with > Michael who appeared to openly admit that he would have been glad to > have put JV out of the race during that incident.In article <9hd9l8$phj$[email hidden]>, Marc Fraioli
<[email hidden]> writes
Can't recall the exact words, but at no stage did he say it was an
accidental collision. He basically was saying that he wanted to win by
any means possible at the that particular moment and that's why he did
what he did. If someone's got a recording of this on video - though why
anyone would want to have a recording of JC banging on is beyond me :) -
perhaps they could transcribe the important bit. It wasn't very long.
--
Peter Ives
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -17.06
Quoted text (32 lines)
>In article <[email hidden]>, > Peter Ives <[email hidden]> writes: >> In article <[email hidden]>, >EldredP >> <[email hidden]> writes >>>In article <9h60jl$1lf$[email hidden]>, "Ian P" >>><[email hidden]> >>>writes: >>> >>>>> How about the time whem Villeneuve came up the inside, MS saw him, >>>>> straghtened up then turn in on him on purporse to try and crash him. >>>> >>>>He did, thats one deliberate foul, which he admitted. I'm willing to let >>>>that slide, you're obviously not. >>> >>>I didn't realize he had even admitted that. Do you happen to have a link to >>>that interview? >> >> There's a program called 'Speed' here in the UK on sundays where one >> Jeremy Clarkson got to look into the psychology of separating the >> winners from the also-rans. During the program he got to chat with >> Michael who appeared to openly admit that he would have been glad to >> have put JV out of the race during that incident. > >Well, there's a big difference between saying "We came together by >accident, and had he been knocked out, leaving me to win the >Championship, >I can't say I'd be sorry about it. I'll take the win however it comes", >for instance, and saying "yeah, I tried to take him out so I could win". >It would be important to clarify which one he meant before you say he >"admitted" that he rammed JV on purpose. >Ian is absolutely correct when it comes to that incident. MS was completely
under control and executing a clean pass. JM lost control and would have
rammed MS if MS hadn't reacted so well.
Nothing bias there. That's simply what happened.
David G Fisher
"Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:aJ7_6.100185$[email hidden]...
> being that I couldn't care less about this "debate" but...
>
> Ian P, your so bloody biased it's sad.
>
> If you can really only see every single incident from the MS \ Ferraiangle,
> then I suppose you believe everything from the perspective of yourfavorite
> political party etc.
>
> I suggest for your own sake (and all of ours as well) you learn to sethings
Quoted text (33 lines)
> from a 3rd party outside objective perspective. > > > Ian P <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9hafjr$lqt$[email hidden]... > > Not at all, MS was easily able to turn into the corner, however JPM > screwed > > up the corner and left MS nowhere to go. > > > > -- > > > > Ian P > > <email invalid due to spammers> > > > > > > "Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > If MS was the super god, then he would have braked at a sane place, > > > and turned into the corner. JPM braked wayyy too late, but MS was > > > braking too late as well. Errors on both sides, but ms's cost him > > > pretty dearly. > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:26:18 +0100, "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > >And the only reason MS was behind RB was because a rookie overcooked > his > > > >defending and lost MS about 4 places. > > > > > > > > >The bias I've seen on this newsgroup this year is coming from people who are
rooting for JPM due to his CART connection. Quite a few CART fans here.
Somehow he's an "American driver" now. They completely ignore all the
mistakes he's made, his bad attitude and the fact that his teammate has
badly out qualified him in almost every race, and has done much better in
the races themselves.
David G Fisher
"Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9hclts$agl$[email hidden]...
and
> JPM is the only one going into that corner with wheels locked and smoking.
> MS was trying to pass him, after all it's a motor race. If JPM had madethe
> corner MS would have probably made the pass and would most certainly not
> have gone off the track.
> Does MS make mistakes ? Yep, he most certainly does, he very often willover
> drive the car when pushing hard trying to get a jump on someone during
> pitstops. He has thrown away a few wins by doing just that. He's also spuna
defending
> DC, a driver who I don't like at all. If I belive someone deservesdefending
> I'll defend them, whether I like them or not. If that makes me seem biased
> to you, well in the words of JPM "sorry!"
> You joined this thread and said I'm biased because I was defending MS,well
> yes I was, but at least i've seen the incidents in question and have a
> modicum of proof to back up what I think.
>
> >
> > Also I don't necessarily mind Rueben's moving over for micheal inconcept
> of
> > team racing... but when it's the drivers champs that are reallyimportant,
> > then perhaps we shouldn't have 2 driver teams if one is only there to
> block
> > over cars and such. not to mention that he is chasing down the most wins
> > ever by racing for teams that encourage his teammates to let him win.Sure
> > he would have probably done it anyway. but I believe is tarnishes the
> > record. "He would have passed him anyway," it isn't racing, if thatwe're
to
> the other teams). Whether the team makes that decision or the drivers do,
> the outcome is the same. Do I necesarily agree with it? not really butit's
