OT: CART wet racing comments

Hi, Say my first Wet Cart race in a looooong time. I posted a stupid question some time ago about CART racing in the rain and got a few (justified) riled folks irritated by my questions about wet racing on ovals... anyway, anybody want to comment on the mayhem yesterday at Portland? The first 30 laps were chaos. I couldn't believe how hard it was for those guys to keep the car under control. Shows you how F1 has watered down things with all the driver aids :( I never liked Paul Tracy that much and last night I was disappointed in his pit stop antics. I know its raining and that the grip in the pits was lousy, but *everybody* had to exercise a little bit more caution. Poor Bruno Junqueira. I watched the coverage on ESPN and the race ended midnight local time for me. I don't know if there was any other interviews / stuff after the race as I would like to hear more of the driver's comments. Enjoyed Fittipaldi's performance, though. Also, does Castroneves have the record for most pitstops in one race? Any other views on the race? Regards

What driver aids did F1 have in Malaysia? All they had was the semi-auto gearbox. Traction control and launch control weren't back at that time. Malaysia had a lot of spins, but the track was in far worse condition then at Portland. -Pav On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, it was written:

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> Hi, > > Say my first Wet Cart race in a looooong time. I posted a stupid > question some time ago about CART racing in the rain and got a few > (justified) riled folks irritated by my questions about wet racing on > ovals... > > anyway, anybody want to comment on the mayhem yesterday at Portland? > The first 30 laps were chaos. I couldn't believe how hard it was for > those guys to keep the car under control. Shows you how F1 has > watered down things with all the driver aids :( > > I never liked Paul Tracy that much and last night I was disappointed > in his pit stop antics. I know its raining and that the grip in the > pits was lousy, but *everybody* had to exercise a little bit more > caution. Poor Bruno Junqueira. > > I watched the coverage on ESPN and the race ended midnight local time > for me. I don't know if there was any other interviews / stuff after > the race as I would like to hear more of the driver's comments. > > Enjoyed Fittipaldi's performance, though. Also, does Castroneves have > the record for most pitstops in one race? Any other views on the > race? > > Regards >

Worst bunch of crap I've seen in a long time, and I'm a huge CART fan (Tracy fan, no less ;) ). As wide open as Portland is, they shouldn't have had 75% of the full course cautions. This is an area where F1 is far superior. Just let 'em race. If they spin off course and aren't in a dangerous place, f*ck 'em. Tracy boned-up big time. Hated to see it after his hard charging to get up to P2 after starting 14th, but Bruno got the shaft, courtesy of Paul. Papis drove smart (easy to do when you can see) and deserved the win. I love watchin them race in the rain, but after Portland I hope the rest of the season is dry! Warlock! istoff wrote:

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> Hi, > > Say my first Wet Cart race in a looooong time. I posted a stupid > question some time ago about CART racing in the rain and got a few > (justified) riled folks irritated by my questions about wet racing on > ovals... > > anyway, anybody want to comment on the mayhem yesterday at Portland? > The first 30 laps were chaos. I couldn't believe how hard it was for > those guys to keep the car under control. Shows you how F1 has > watered down things with all the driver aids :( > > I never liked Paul Tracy that much and last night I was disappointed > in his pit stop antics. I know its raining and that the grip in the > pits was lousy, but *everybody* had to exercise a little bit more > caution. Poor Bruno Junqueira. > > I watched the coverage on ESPN and the race ended midnight local time > for me. I don't know if there was any other interviews / stuff after > the race as I would like to hear more of the driver's comments. > > Enjoyed Fittipaldi's performance, though. Also, does Castroneves have > the record for most pitstops in one race? Any other views on the > race? > > Regards

You can find more driver comments at the bottom of this page: http://www.cart.com/ in the team news sections. dave henrie <istoff> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Hi, > > Say my first Wet Cart race in a looooong time. I posted a (snip)

If you have windows media player, real player or quicktime you can view some interesting footage shot after the race.(http://www.cart.com/) In the mulimedia section they have several files called 'champ cam' where they follow the race winner through the confusion after a race. The demands of the local media, the track officials etc. Not for those who get seasick tho...the handheld nature of the footage is very bouncy. dave henrie <istoff> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Hi, > > Say my first Wet Cart race in a looooong time. I posted a stupid > question some time ago about CART racing in the rain and got a few > (justified) riled folks irritated by my questions about wet racing on > ovals... > > anyway, anybody want to comment on the mayhem yesterday at Portland? > The first 30 laps were chaos. I couldn't believe how hard it was for > those guys to keep the car under control. Shows you how F1 has > watered down things with all the driver aids :( > > I never liked Paul Tracy that much and last night I was disappointed > in his pit stop antics. I know its raining and that the grip in the > pits was lousy, but *everybody* had to exercise a little bit more > caution. Poor Bruno Junqueira. > > I watched the coverage on ESPN and the race ended midnight local time > for me. I don't know if there was any other interviews / stuff after > the race as I would like to hear more of the driver's comments. > > Enjoyed Fittipaldi's performance, though. Also, does Castroneves have > the record for most pitstops in one race? Any other views on the > race? > > Regards

On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 07:06:27 -0500, Matt Lanzer <[email hidden]> wrote: >Worst bunch of crap I've seen in a long time, and I'm a huge CART fan >(Tracy fan, no less ;) ). As wide open as Portland is, they shouldn't have >had 75% of the full course cautions. This is an area where F1 is far >superior. Just let 'em race. If they spin off course and aren't in a >dangerous place, f*ck 'em. Hi, I guess it was harder to race there than it loooked. Shift-R is sooo much easier for me and I guess I have no idea what it was like for the drivers. Not just the difficulty of the reduced grip / visibility issues, but also the pressures of seeing the more experienced drivers messing it up as well. My heart goes out to the guys who got collected by others in the the accidents, Zanarda, Juncqueria, Gugelmin, etc. The second half of the race was pretty entertaining and worth staying up late to watch. To reply to John's comment about Malaysia, etc. I take your point. Possibly the F1 series provides more wet races on average than Cart and the drivers run more laps on them? I can't say. I do enjoy the mixed condition races a lot though. Gives some of the weaker teams a bit more of a chance, at least. Regards all Regards all, istoff

On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:14:48 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> You can find more driver comments at the bottom of this page: >http://www.cart.com/ >in the team news sections. >dave henrie ><istoff> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... >> Hi, >> >> Say my first Wet Cart race in a looooong time. I posted a (snip) >

thanks dh. will check that and the video as well. regards Regards all, istoff

>. I couldn't believe how hard it was for those guys to keep the car undercontrol. I was watching it last night thinking this, the cars looked a lot more difficult than F1 cars have in much worse conditions - much more "fishtaily". I wonder could this be due to the fact they have turboed engines and there is some lag before the power comes in - hence making it harder for a driver to judge just how much power they are trying to put down? Any ideas? -- Cheers, Robin Lord - Trance DJ & Sim Racer. http://www.oppositelock.co.uk N�rburgring and Grand Prix Legends

Too much concrete+oil!

I feel wet racing and US racing doesn't ix well. To me it seems as though they can't handle it over there, but I'm not suggesting they are bad drivers what I mean is that since most races are run in such hot conditions a wet race seems to throw them off guard. Drivers haven't enough practice on a wet track, teams haven't enough wet weather data to set-up the cars right.... perhaps even tyres are not very suitable as they might not get much development.... It could be any number of factors.... including ultra smooth tracks and the tendency to have many many variations to track surface over a short stretch of track... In Europe it's just wet wet wet and we get lots of time to learn how to drive in the wet, set up for the wet and so on.... it must count for something. Generally i feel tyres and track surface may be a major problem in CART when rain falls. <istoff> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Hi, > > Say my first Wet Cart race in a looooong time. I posted a stupid > question some time ago about CART racing in the rain and got a few > (justified) riled folks irritated by my questions about wet racing on > ovals... > > anyway, anybody want to comment on the mayhem yesterday at Portland? > The first 30 laps were chaos. I couldn't believe how hard it was for > those guys to keep the car under control. Shows you how F1 has > watered down things with all the driver aids :( > > I never liked Paul Tracy that much and last night I was disappointed > in his pit stop antics. I know its raining and that the grip in the > pits was lousy, but *everybody* had to exercise a little bit more > caution. Poor Bruno Junqueira. > > I watched the coverage on ESPN and the race ended midnight local time > for me. I don't know if there was any other interviews / stuff after > the race as I would like to hear more of the driver's comments. > > Enjoyed Fittipaldi's performance, though. Also, does Castroneves have > the record for most pitstops in one race? Any other views on the > race? > > Regards

"GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_BNZ6.8398$[email hidden]... > Generally i feel tyres and track surface may be a major problem in CARTwhen > rain falls. Is it possibly a case of designing the cars to the most common set of conditions? I don't know what the ratio is for ovals/road courses in CART, but I'd think a team would use a chassis that was highly effective in the most common conditions (dry ovals?) any other conditions would be a compromise in the design, perhaps I'm suggesting that F1 cars by their design handle better on road courses and in changeable weather, which is therefore no critisism of the CART drivers. I don't follow CART, but some of the names reeled off I recognise from F1, F3000, Sports Cars etc, and those lads should certainly know how to drive in the wet. F1 cars look like they have more downforce, but I don't know if that's true, just that it looks like it. I'd agree with the other poster that turbo'd cars might have a worse time of it with the lag->snap on power. cheers John

I would think that Goodyear has a lot of experience developing for wet with their years with F1...and I bet Firestone steals some of its brother's research (Bridgestone) from F1 to develop their wet tires. I don't think the tires are the specific problem. I think like JM said, it is about the design of the cars. It is well known that F1 makes more downforce than CART...and F1 cars are lighter...and like JM said, the turbo lag might be hurting them on corner exit...but I also agree with you that the US tracks aren't very good...even when it isn't racing. The other thing is that in F1, if a car goes off, they hook up the crane and pull it to safety...so those minor incidents aren't really noticed in F1...in CART, every little run off is a full course caution for a few laps and so people notice every minor slip up. JB GraDee <[email hidden]> wrote in message <_BNZ6.8398$[email hidden]>... >I feel wet racing and US racing doesn't ix well. > >To me it seems as though they can't handle it over there, but I'm not >suggesting they are bad drivers what I mean is that since most races arerun >in such hot conditions a wet race seems to throw them off guard. Drivers >haven't enough practice on a wet track, teams haven't enough wet weather >data to set-up the cars right.... perhaps even tyres are not very suitable >as they might not get much development.... It could be any number of >factors.... including ultra smooth tracks and the tendency to have manymany >variations to track surface over a short stretch of track... >In Europe it's just wet wet wet and we get lots of time to learn how to >drive in the wet, set up for the wet and so on.... it must count for >something. > >Generally i feel tyres and track surface may be a major problem in CARTwhen >rain falls. > > ><istoff> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]...

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>> Hi, >> >> Say my first Wet Cart race in a looooong time. I posted a stupid >> question some time ago about CART racing in the rain and got a few >> (justified) riled folks irritated by my questions about wet racing on >> ovals... >> >> anyway, anybody want to comment on the mayhem yesterday at Portland? >> The first 30 laps were chaos. I couldn't believe how hard it was for >> those guys to keep the car under control. Shows you how F1 has >> watered down things with all the driver aids :( >> >> I never liked Paul Tracy that much and last night I was disappointed >> in his pit stop antics. I know its raining and that the grip in the >> pits was lousy, but *everybody* had to exercise a little bit more >> caution. Poor Bruno Junqueira. >> >> I watched the coverage on ESPN and the race ended midnight local time >> for me. I don't know if there was any other interviews / stuff after >> the race as I would like to hear more of the driver's comments. >> >> Enjoyed Fittipaldi's performance, though. Also, does Castroneves have >> the record for most pitstops in one race? Any other views on the >> race? >> >> Regards > >

I think part of the problem might be the TURBO kicking in when you're trying to baby the throttle. -- Sean Higgins Redline Racing League www.rrlnrs.com Redline BGN Division http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/RRL/ <istoff> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Hi, > > Say my first Wet Cart race in a looooong time. I posted a stupid > question some time ago about CART racing in the rain and got a few > (justified) riled folks irritated by my questions about wet racing on > ovals... > > anyway, anybody want to comment on the mayhem yesterday at Portland? > The first 30 laps were chaos. I couldn't believe how hard it was for > those guys to keep the car under control. Shows you how F1 has > watered down things with all the driver aids :( > > I never liked Paul Tracy that much and last night I was disappointed > in his pit stop antics. I know its raining and that the grip in the > pits was lousy, but *everybody* had to exercise a little bit more > caution. Poor Bruno Junqueira. > > I watched the coverage on ESPN and the race ended midnight local time > for me. I don't know if there was any other interviews / stuff after > the race as I would like to hear more of the driver's comments. > > Enjoyed Fittipaldi's performance, though. Also, does Castroneves have > the record for most pitstops in one race? Any other views on the > race? > > Regards

Some advantages for F1 are warm tires and their hands are on the wheel at all times. Not to mention yellows themselves...they bunch everyone up in those conditions and cool the tires down. Since everyone in CART is more competitive (closer laptimes) than in F1 some stupid passing attempts will happen resulting in accidents...oh yeah and that chicane causes nasty incidents in the dry...think about the wet. Jon "John Pavlicek" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> What driver aids did F1 have in Malaysia? All they had was the semi-auto > gearbox. Traction control and launch control weren't back at that time. > Malaysia had a lot of spins, but the track was in far worse condition then > at Portland. > > -Pav > > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, it was written: > > > Hi, > > > > Say my first Wet Cart race in a looooong time. I posted a stupid > > question some time ago about CART racing in the rain and got a few > > (justified) riled folks irritated by my questions about wet racing on > > ovals... > > > > anyway, anybody want to comment on the mayhem yesterday at Portland? > > The first 30 laps were chaos. I couldn't believe how hard it was for > > those guys to keep the car under control. Shows you how F1 has > > watered down things with all the driver aids :( > > > > I never liked Paul Tracy that much and last night I was disappointed > > in his pit stop antics. I know its raining and that the grip in the > > pits was lousy, but *everybody* had to exercise a little bit more > > caution. Poor Bruno Junqueira. > > > > I watched the coverage on ESPN and the race ended midnight local time > > for me. I don't know if there was any other interviews / stuff after > > the race as I would like to hear more of the driver's comments. > > > > Enjoyed Fittipaldi's performance, though. Also, does Castroneves have > > the record for most pitstops in one race? Any other views on the > > race? > > > > Regards > > > > >

"Matt Lanzer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Tracy boned-up big time. Hated to see it after his hard charging to get up > to P2 after starting 14th, but Bruno got the shaft, courtesy of Paul. > Papis drove smart (easy to do when you can see) and deserved the win. Well even when he was in 3rd he was smart about it. He backed off and let the Newman/Haas guys get a turn or 2 ahead of him and then he picked it up and ran close to their laptimes w/ a fairly clear view ahead. Jon

I wrote a letter to Cart, expressing my dissappointment with the rain performance at portland, and asked them if they have reduced so much down force in the cars that they no longer can race in the rain? Maybe they need to reduce speeds by putting so much down force in the cars that the can't get up to speed with the current engine package. At the very least the cars would once again stick to the track. With reduced down force we now have the ability of the cars to go extreemly fast down the straights with no downforce to stop the cars properly at the end of the straights in the wet, and very little or no down force to keep the cars on the medium to slow speed turns when wet. I'll be at Cleveland in a few days, and I sure hope it is dry, otherwise I might be watching a parade led by the pace car. <istoff> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Hi, > > Say my first Wet Cart race in a looooong time. I posted a stupid > question some time ago about CART racing in the rain and got a few > (justified) riled folks irritated by my questions about wet racing on > ovals... > > anyway, anybody want to comment on the mayhem yesterday at Portland? > The first 30 laps were chaos. I couldn't believe how hard it was for > those guys to keep the car under control. Shows you how F1 has > watered down things with all the driver aids :( > > I never liked Paul Tracy that much and last night I was disappointed > in his pit stop antics. I know its raining and that the grip in the > pits was lousy, but *everybody* had to exercise a little bit more > caution. Poor Bruno Junqueira. > > I watched the coverage on ESPN and the race ended midnight local time > for me. I don't know if there was any other interviews / stuff after > the race as I would like to hear more of the driver's comments. > > Enjoyed Fittipaldi's performance, though. Also, does Castroneves have > the record for most pitstops in one race? Any other views on the > race? > > Regards

Warm tires is only an advantage really that first or two out lap out. And in Malaysia, they had a full course caution, and still the problems that persisted in the CART race did not exist past that initial run when all the teams were caught with the wrong tyres. True driver aids are traction and launch control, ABS, and fully-auto gearboxes. As for that chicane causign nasty accidents, F1 has their fair share of bad accidents due to chicanes. Monza last year was a prime example of that. And I don't mind the semi-auto gearbox, I think it's a wonderful advance to racing. The one problem in F1 I see is with the brakes, I think they need less efficient brakes. They way they are now, it's too difficult to out-brake another guy. With inefficient brakes it's far more possible, look at Robby Gordon in the NASCAR race to see that. -Pav On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Jon Van Ginneken wrote:

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> Some advantages for F1 are warm tires and their hands are on the wheel at > all times. > Not to mention yellows themselves...they bunch everyone up in those > conditions and cool the tires down. Since everyone in CART is more > competitive (closer laptimes) than in F1 some stupid passing attempts will > happen resulting in accidents...oh yeah and that chicane causes nasty > incidents in the dry...think about the wet. > > Jon > > > "John Pavlicek" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > What driver aids did F1 have in Malaysia? All they had was the semi-auto > > gearbox. Traction control and launch control weren't back at that time. > > Malaysia had a lot of spins, but the track was in far worse condition then > > at Portland. > > > > -Pav > > > > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, it was written: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Say my first Wet Cart race in a looooong time. I posted a stupid > > > question some time ago about CART racing in the rain and got a few > > > (justified) riled folks irritated by my questions about wet racing on > > > ovals... > > > > > > anyway, anybody want to comment on the mayhem yesterday at Portland? > > > The first 30 laps were chaos. I couldn't believe how hard it was for > > > those guys to keep the car under control. Shows you how F1 has > > > watered down things with all the driver aids :( > > > > > > I never liked Paul Tracy that much and last night I was disappointed > > > in his pit stop antics. I know its raining and that the grip in the > > > pits was lousy, but *everybody* had to exercise a little bit more > > > caution. Poor Bruno Junqueira. > > > > > > I watched the coverage on ESPN and the race ended midnight local time > > > for me. I don't know if there was any other interviews / stuff after > > > the race as I would like to hear more of the driver's comments. > > > > > > Enjoyed Fittipaldi's performance, though. Also, does Castroneves have > > > the record for most pitstops in one race? Any other views on the > > > race? > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > >

"John Pavlicek" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Warm tires is only an advantage really that first or two out lap out. My point exactly...a caution helps cool those tires down (I would presume that it would be especially true in the wet). > And > in Malaysia, they had a full course caution, and still the problems that > persisted in the CART race did not exist past that initial run when all > the teams were caught with the wrong tyres. Well thanks to Bernie going with the worst option for most F1 fans in America I can't see any F1 this year...Bravo Bernie Bravo! That's the way to increase interest in your company. Malaysia is a MUCH wider track than most, which allows for an easier time in the wet...as well as a much better surface (actually that can go for any F1 track as opposed to CART). Other than Monaco I can't think of an F1 track which uses Concrete (which is a much denser surface...which is nasty in the wet since the water and oil has nowehere to go). > And I don't mind the semi-auto gearbox, I think it's a wonderful advance > to racing. The one problem in F1 I see is with the brakes, I think they > need less efficient brakes. They way they are now, it's too difficult to > out-brake another guy. With inefficient brakes it's far more possible, > look at Robby Gordon in the NASCAR race to see that. Agreed there...you hardly see CART and NASCAR guys locking up wheels unless they are trying a really stupid move...but I see (ok saw) it all the time in F1. Jon

My feelings are the best CART races were almost 10 years ago when they had high downforce and almost as much power as now. The Andretti's and Unser jr battles with Emmo and Tracey were very good. Rarely did you see a track that had processions or one preferred line. now with the reduced downforce and high hp....the drivers face many of the same problems that have faced the F1 series for the past few years. I'm hoping that Cart and F1 and the rest of the series can find some compromise between better racing/safety/&competiveness. dave henrie "Brian Heiland" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Jr3_6.208$[email hidden]... > I wrote a letter to Cart, expressing my dissappointment with the rain > performance at portland, and asked them if they have reduced so much down > force in the cars that they no longer can race in the rain?(snip)

Problem is that Goodyear is no more, and Firestone hava a monopoly. Which means little development, especially wet tyres. Those tyres didn't look anything like an F1 wet, look to have a LOT less grip than F1 tyres. I'm sure that doesn't help when you add in heavier cars, turbo lag, etc. There aren't that many opportunities for running in the wet in CART either, since 50% of the time they are on ovals, which will get cancelled or delayed if it's wet. Rafe Mc On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:50:38 GMT, "Jesse Black" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I would think that Goodyear has a lot of experience developing for wet with >their years with F1...and I bet Firestone steals some of its brother's >research (Bridgestone) from F1 to develop their wet tires. I don't think >the tires are the specific problem. I think like JM said, it is about the >design of the cars. It is well known that F1 makes more downforce than >CART...and F1 cars are lighter...and like JM said, the turbo lag might be >hurting them on corner exit...but I also agree with you that the US tracks >aren't very good...even when it isn't racing. The other thing is that in >F1, if a car goes off, they hook up the crane and pull it to safety...so >those minor incidents aren't really noticed in F1...in CART, every little >run off is a full course caution for a few laps and so people notice every >minor slip up. > >JB >