Official Rally Trophy forum opened

JoWood opened an official forum for Rally Trophy today. Head over to http://forum.jowood.com if you have any questions regarding the game. Ilari Lehtinen Bugbear Entertainment http://www.bugbear.fi

Ilari Lehtinen <[email hidden]> wrote on 27 Jun 2001: > JoWood opened an official forum for Rally Trophy today. Head over > to http://forum.jowood.com if you have any questions regarding the > game. Interesting, though I generally dislike web-based message boards - Usenet is much more convenient - so I'll probably carry on posting re RT here. I do have one concern, though: there is a message from one of the admins saying an editor is unlikely - I'll be very, *very* disappointed if third-party addons prove to be impossible. IN fact, I may not even buy the game without that capability. -- David. (GPLRank handicap -6.57 [*hooray!*]; Monsters +271.79) The GPL Scrapyard: http://scrapyard.9ug.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

David Buttery <[email hidden]> wrote on 28 Jun 2001:

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> Ilari Lehtinen <[email hidden]> wrote on 27 Jun 2001: > >> JoWood opened an official forum for Rally Trophy today. Head over >> to http://forum.jowood.com if you have any questions regarding the >> game. > > Interesting, though I generally dislike web-based message boards - > Usenet is much more convenient - so I'll probably carry on posting > re RT here.

<snip> In fact, I certainly will, as the board has got stuck and won't accept my post. Here's what I was going to say: <begin quote> I'm very concerned at Teut's message: Ilari Lehtinen was on rec.autos.simulators the other day and gave the distinct impression that editing tools would be available if the community wanted it enough. We do. I think it would be utterly idiotic to make RT a "closed system" - programs that are capable of accepting user-written addons generally have a much longer lifespan. GPL is the prime example - imagine life without Replay Analyser, Carsound, GPLRank, VROC... The "complexity" argument is just silly: GPL track editing was very difficult indeed until recently, yet we still got Brands, Solitude, Imola... There's never been a rally game with a decent editor; I had high hopes that RT would be it. Instead, it seems to be indanger of being "just another game". If you want cash, from me at least, you must *not* keep everything proprietary. WSC is showing the way: don't get left behind. -- David. (GPLRank handicap -6.57 [*hooray!*]; Monsters +271.79) The GPL Scrapyard: http://scrapyard.9ug.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

You won't pay $40 for a sim if you can't edit it? Come on. $40 is nothing. Take a date to a movie, have a snack, and you end up paying that. Two hours later and it's over for good. > I think it would be utterly idiotic to make RT a "closed system" - > programs that are capable of accepting user-written addons generally > have a much longer lifespan. GPL is the prime example - imagine life > without Replay Analyser, Carsound, GPLRank, VROC... How many people actually use those things? A closed system won't hurt sales a bit. If they want to make a follow up, then a closed system is certainly understandable. > The "complexity" argument is just silly: GPL track editing was very > difficult indeed until recently, yet we still got Brands, Solitude, > Imola... All editors are not created equal. > There's never been a rally game with a decent editor; I had high hopes > that RT would be it. Instead, it seems to be indanger of being "just > another game". If you want cash, from me at least, you must *not* keep > everything proprietary. WSC is showing the way: don't get left behind. WSC hasn't showed anything yet (I'm sure it will be excellent), and I seriously doubt that they will squash the competition and be a best seller due to being open. You seem to think that because a relative handful of people stay "into" a sim for a long time (like GPL or MTM2 with editing, etc.) that another sim fails if it doesn't follow that path. For the 1,000th time, GPL failed. It has a loyal following among a small group of people. Lots of "things" in life have a loyal following, that doesn't make them an example of how it "should be done". BTW, if a GPL2 and GPL3 were made (due to half a million in sales, how many people out of the 40,000 who bought GPL would still be playing it (not that there's really that many left)? I'll gladly pay $40 for Rally Trophy with or without editors. David G Fisher

David Buttery <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> Ilari Lehtinen <[email hidden]> wrote on 27 Jun 2001: > Usenet is much more convenient - so I'll probably carry on posting re > RT here. I do have one concern, though: there is a message from one of > the admins saying an editor is unlikely - I'll be very, *very* > disappointed if third-party addons prove to be impossible. IN fact, I > may not even buy the game without that capability.

May I remind you of the fact that GPL didn't ship with any editing facilities at all? Look what happened. You really needn't make such a fuss about it. +Cinquo

Hi David! David G Fisher wrote: > > You won't pay $40 for a sim if you can't edit it? Come on. $40 is nothing. > Take a date to a movie, have a snack, and you end up paying that. Two hours > later and it's over for good. > I think you should seriously reconsider your dating strategy if your dates are over for good after two hours... ;) I'm sorry, the opportunity just begged for this! I agree with you on all counts, though. GPL is NOT an open system. In fact, it's probably one of the most closed. The same goes for GP2/GP3, and look how many addons/improvements were done for those by the community. CMR 2.0 is in the same league, yet new cars are starting to come out. If Rally Trophy sells well (I sure hope it does), you can bet there will be people who will crack the code and expand upon it. And even if that doesn't happen, if Rally Trophy will deliver at least half of what we've been promised, 40$ will be a steal. -Gregor

"Gregor Veble" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Hi David! > > David G Fisher wrote: > > > > You won't pay $40 for a sim if you can't edit it? Come on. $40 isnothing. > > Take a date to a movie, have a snack, and you end up paying that. Twohours

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> > later and it's over for good. > > > > I think you should seriously reconsider your dating strategy if your > dates are over for good after two hours... > > ;) I'm sorry, the opportunity just begged for this!

Very funny. :-P The MOVIE is over after two hours, not the date. Seriously though, $40.00 for a sim is an extreme bargain when you add up all the hours of enjoyment you get from it. Even if you buy an occasional dud, it's still a very cheap hobby when it comes to the software. The hardware is where the expense comes (I just had to order a Ferrari FF wheel today). :-( David G Fisher

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> I agree with you on all counts, though. GPL is NOT an open system. In > fact, it's probably one of the most closed. The same goes for GP2/GP3, > and look how many addons/improvements were done for those by the > community. CMR 2.0 is in the same league, yet new cars are starting to > come out. > > If Rally Trophy sells well (I sure hope it does), you can bet there will > be people who will crack the code and expand upon it. And even if that > doesn't happen, if Rally Trophy will deliver at least half of what we've > been promised, 40$ will be a steal. > > -Gregor

You mean "Mr Beta Tester" aka "Super Sim Racer" doesnt just use a keyboard? Wow! "David G Fisher" wrote: | (I just had to order a Ferrari FF wheel today). :-( | David G Fisher --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.262 / Virus Database: 132 - Release Date: 6/12/2001

Fullblown editor is pretty much beyond our resources and timelimits at the moment as I've said before, tracks for example are a tad bit too complex.. Tools to import/export files are a possibility, but they depend on numerous things. Time will tell, but in the meantime we can't promise anything. Hope this clears things :) -Ilari David Buttery wrote:

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> > Ilari Lehtinen <[email hidden]> wrote on 27 Jun 2001: > > > JoWood opened an official forum for Rally Trophy today. Head over > > to http://forum.jowood.com if you have any questions regarding the > > game. > > Interesting, though I generally dislike web-based message boards - > Usenet is much more convenient - so I'll probably carry on posting re > RT here. I do have one concern, though: there is a message from one of > the admins saying an editor is unlikely - I'll be very, *very* > disappointed if third-party addons prove to be impossible. IN fact, I > may not even buy the game without that capability. > > -- > David. (GPLRank handicap -6.57 [*hooray!*]; Monsters +271.79) > The GPL Scrapyard: http://scrapyard.9ug.com > "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, > really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

-- .: fifty miles beyond the madness horizon :. .: http://focused.wox.org :.

Ilari Lehtinen <[email hidden]> wrote on 28 Jun 2001:

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> Fullblown editor is pretty much beyond our resources and timelimits > at the moment as I've said before, tracks for example are a tad bit > too complex.. > Tools to import/export files are a possibility, but > they depend on numerous things. Time will tell, but in the meantime > we can't promise anything. > > Hope this clears things :)

Thank you. Even though I'm disappointed with the probable lack of an editor, I am very pleased that you are prepared to come on here and answer questions - that's much better than most developers. Looks like it's a GPL situation again, folks - if we wnat user-done tracks, we'll just have to figure out the formats ourselves. Someone set up the RTEA... :-) -- David. (GPLRank handicap -6.57 [*hooray!*]; Monsters +271.79) The GPL Scrapyard: http://scrapyard.9ug.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

Gregor Veble <[email hidden]> wrote on 28 Jun 2001: <snip> > I agree with you on all counts, though. GPL is NOT an open system. > In fact, it's probably one of the most closed.<snip> Indeed - what I meant was that GPL is *now* reasonably open compared to other games, thanks to the huge efforts by various people such as the GPLEA. I'm also probably using a different definition of "open" and "closed" to the norm - what I mean by an "open" system is one where an ordinary player can alter cars, tracks etc without having to get out a hex editor. I *don't* necessarily mean one which is open source. And yes, I almost certainly will buy it if it's very good. I think I was being a bit hasty because of my disappointment - it's ridiculous that no recent sim has come with any sort of editor, even one with rough edges like the GP2 one. -- David. (GPLRank handicap -6.57 [*hooray!*]; Monsters +271.79) The GPL Scrapyard: http://scrapyard.9ug.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

Ville V Sinkko <[email hidden]> wrote on 28 Jun 2001:

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> David Buttery <[email hidden]> wrote: >> Ilari Lehtinen <[email hidden]> wrote on 27 Jun 2001: > >> Usenet is much more convenient - so I'll probably carry on posting >> re RT here. I do have one concern, though: there is a message from >> one of the admins saying an editor is unlikely - I'll be very, >> *very* disappointed if third-party addons prove to be impossible. >> IN fact, I may not even buy the game without that capability. > > May I remind you of the fact that GPL didn't ship with any editing > facilities at all? Look what happened. You really needn't make such > a fuss about it.

Quite right - if people can "do a GPL", then that's fine. I just worry about the prospect of it being made *deliberately* difficult to do so. -- David. (GPLRank handicap -6.57 [*hooray!*]; Monsters +271.79) The GPL Scrapyard: http://scrapyard.9ug.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

David Buttery <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> Ville V Sinkko <[email hidden]> wrote on 28 Jun 2001: >> May I remind you of the fact that GPL didn't ship with any editing >> facilities at all? Look what happened. You really needn't make such >> a fuss about it. > Quite right - if people can "do a GPL", then that's fine. I just worry > about the prospect of it being made *deliberately* difficult to do so.

The incredible level of third-party GPL tracks is due mainly to one thing: the complexity of track editing. If track editing was simple, we would be seeing "N3W r0KcING 31337 tRaKc tHaT I mDaE MYSleF !1!1!" times eight hundred. But because the threshold is high, only people willing to make a real commitment can get things done. Besides, anything can be learned, given time, effort and an infinite amount of monkeys on typewriters. +Cinquo (Et exspecto resurrectionem Clermont-Ferrandus)

On 28 Jun 2001 22:59:26 GMT, [email hidden] (David Buttery) wrote: >Ilari Lehtinen <[email hidden]> wrote on 28 Jun 2001: > >> Fullblown editor is pretty much beyond our resources and timelimits... >Looks like it's a GPL situation again, folks - if we wnat user-done >tracks, we'll just have to figure out the formats ourselves. Someone >set up the RTEA... :-) A relatively small description of the file formats do wonders. The GPL format is still littered with magic 81F nodes and all that. With help from the developers, editors can be developed way more quickly. Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

On 29 Jun 2001 08:04:56 GMT, Ville V Sinkko <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>David Buttery <[email hidden]> wrote: >> Ville V Sinkko <[email hidden]> wrote on 28 Jun 2001: > >>> May I remind you of the fact that GPL didn't ship with any editing >>> facilities at all? Look what happened. You really needn't make such >>> a fuss about it. > >> Quite right - if people can "do a GPL", then that's fine. I just worry >> about the prospect of it being made *deliberately* difficult to do so. > >The incredible level of third-party GPL tracks is due mainly to one thing: >the complexity of track editing.

Well I must say that GPL has a fairly difficult layout as well; 3 levels of detail into 1 single rendering tree. Looks like a more simple editor which then generates the BSP tree could make things much easier. Although perhaps the GPLEA editor does that, never checked. :) > If track editing was simple, we would be >seeing "N3W r0KcING 31337 tRaKc tHaT I mDaE MYSleF !1!1!" times eight >hundred. But because the threshold is high, only people willing to make a >real commitment can get things done. Basic track editing isn't that hard. I've done one myself in Max, a tiny tiny one, and am trying to make it easy for people to create them (for my own sim), but the real challenge is in the details; great looks, nice track camera's, splitting the track up into parts, object properties and such. But for a quick start, not a lot is required here. >Besides, anything can be learned, given time, effort and an infinite amount >of monkeys on typewriters. Waiting for random series of bytes to create a wonderful new track would be about as fast. ;-) Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/