GPL. Nurburgring:Fuchsrohre and Kesselchen

I wonder how you take these (Fuchsrohre and Kesselchen) two corners. In particular, the first uphill part of Fuchsrohre has a bump where the car tends to bottom out, which often creates big problems there. The only reliable solution I know is to slow down a bit. However, I've made this corner much faster (gaining 0.8-1.0 sec in that sector), but that way it bottoms out sometimes, but not always. I've tried different sides, different angles etc, but without any conclusion. So what is the secret? :> In Kesselchen (first right-left) I have similar problem with the bump in the middle. Any advise here? Thanks in advance, Alex (alexti)

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> I wonder how you take these (Fuchsrohre and Kesselchen) > two corners. In particular, the first uphill part of > Fuchsrohre has a bump where the car tends to bottom out, > which often creates big problems there. The only reliable > solution I know is to slow down a bit. However, I've made > this corner much faster (gaining 0.8-1.0 sec in that sector), > but that way it bottoms out sometimes, but not always. > I've tried different sides, different angles etc, but without > any conclusion. So what is the secret? :> > > In Kesselchen (first right-left) I have similar problem with > the bump in the middle. Any advise here?

I think you've just got to take Fuchsrohre just fast enough not to bottom out, for me that means lifting a bit just before going through the compression. It does depend on your setup though. How fast are your laptimes? My best is 8:15 in the Lotus, but you may be much faster than me, in which case can you give *me* advice on how to get through Fuchsrohre? :) - Michael

I've found it doesn't "pay" to try and keep the car off the ground at Fuchsrohre through setup and compromise "stick" on the other 99% of the track. So, IMO, it's a matter of a slight lift. Kesselchen is pretty simple... cut it so as to take the bump square on. Jan =--- Alex wrote...

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> I wonder how you take these (Fuchsrohre and Kesselchen) > two corners. In particular, the first uphill part of > Fuchsrohre has a bump where the car tends to bottom out, > which often creates big problems there. The only reliable > solution I know is to slow down a bit. However, I've made > this corner much faster (gaining 0.8-1.0 sec in that sector), > but that way it bottoms out sometimes, but not always. > I've tried different sides, different angles etc, but without > any conclusion. So what is the secret? :> > > In Kesselchen (first right-left) I have similar problem with > the bump in the middle. Any advise here? > > Thanks in advance, > Alex > (alexti)

Alex wrote:

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> > I wonder how you take these (Fuchsrohre and Kesselchen) > two corners. In particular, the first uphill part of > Fuchsrohre has a bump where the car tends to bottom out, > which often creates big problems there. The only reliable > solution I know is to slow down a bit. However, I've made > this corner much faster (gaining 0.8-1.0 sec in that sector), > but that way it bottoms out sometimes, but not always. > I've tried different sides, different angles etc, but without > any conclusion. So what is the secret? :> > > In Kesselchen (first right-left) I have similar problem with > the bump in the middle. Any advise here? > > Thanks in advance, > Alex > (alexti)

Bottoming out is not a problem. If the steering is straight, the car should just carry on ok. However, if you have any lock on when the car bottoms out, it will spin. Kev

I've run with lower setups so far and that usually meant u'd bottom out at those places, unless lifting off for a moment. My pb was 8:17 (in Ferrari) for a long time, and I couldnt improve for 6 months. Now I've tried a different approach- I used some hotshoe's setup with 10 Cm ride hight (almost full) and very soft suspension settings.. tweaked it a bit to suit my driving. What followed was... I got a great setup that doesnt bottom out no matter how hard u drive- no need to lift of at all jumps and bumps, and concentrate simply on the driving line. I've tried it in Eagle first (my old pb in it was 8:20) and on first lap (with some minor mistakes) - it was an online race even- made a 8:16.30 with np. Phew.. think I'll try it in Ferrari and Lotus soon :-)) Mike "Alex" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I wonder how you take these (Fuchsrohre and Kesselchen) > two corners. In particular, the first uphill part of > Fuchsrohre has a bump where the car tends to bottom out, > which often creates big problems there. The only reliable > solution I know is to slow down a bit. However, I've made > this corner much faster (gaining 0.8-1.0 sec in that sector), > but that way it bottoms out sometimes, but not always. > I've tried different sides, different angles etc, but without > any conclusion. So what is the secret? :> > > In Kesselchen (first right-left) I have similar problem with > the bump in the middle. Any advise here? > > Thanks in advance, > Alex > (alexti)

I don't know the names...but if you are talking about the dip before "THE TREE" then I take that dip on the right hand side of the track (the bump isn't as pronounced there) and with slightly less than full throttle. Just watch out for the grass on the right and you should be fine. For Kesselchen (I think this is the nurburgring's version of masta kink) It seems the best bet is to get your right hand turning done before the bump, and then when you hit the bump, it normally tends to rotate you to the left, which finishes the corner perfect...I have yet to have a problem with that corner spinning me. It upsets the car a bit but just a little bit of neutral throttle will help to keep the car balanced. JB Alex <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I wonder how you take these (Fuchsrohre and Kesselchen) > two corners. In particular, the first uphill part of > Fuchsrohre has a bump where the car tends to bottom out, > which often creates big problems there. The only reliable > solution I know is to slow down a bit. However, I've made > this corner much faster (gaining 0.8-1.0 sec in that sector), > but that way it bottoms out sometimes, but not always. > I've tried different sides, different angles etc, but without > any conclusion. So what is the secret? :> > > In Kesselchen (first right-left) I have similar problem with > the bump in the middle. Any advise here? > > Thanks in advance, > Alex > (alexti)

In article <yDV07.17243$[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> writes: >I've found it doesn't "pay" to try and keep the car off the ground at >Fuchsrohre through setup and compromise "stick" on the other 99% of the >track. So, IMO, it's a matter of a slight lift. > >Kesselchen is pretty simple... cut it so as to take the bump square on. > I need to check the track map. I know the first curve, but I can't picture THIS one... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Kevin Clark <[email hidden]> writes: > > Bottoming out is not a problem. If the steering is straight, the car > should just carry on ok. However, if you have any lock on when the car > bottoms out, it will spin. SPIN?! I wish it would just spin. No, what happens to me if I let the car bottom in Fuchsrohre is that the rear steps out, I try to save it, I manage to hold it, briefly, in a somewhat-stable slide, then I run out of pavement and put a wheel on the dirt, then I go careening up that grassy hill on the left, launch off the top of it, and become a projectile, arcing beautifully over the track (gee, I can see Adenauer Forst from here, what a view!), and ultimately end up nosing down into that f*&!ing tree which is on the right (assuming you stayed on the track...) just before the entrance to Adenauer Forst. I'd love to know what you have to do to just spin! :) Marc

"EldredP" wrote... > In article <yDV07.17243$[email hidden]>, "JanVerschueren"

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> <[email hidden]> writes: > > >I've found it doesn't "pay" to try and keep the car off the ground at > >Fuchsrohre through setup and compromise "stick" on the other 99% of the > >track. So, IMO, it's a matter of a slight lift. > > > >Kesselchen is pretty simple... cut it so as to take the bump square on. > > > > I need to check the track map. I know the first curve, but I can't

picture > THIS one...I think he's talking about the right/left at the end of Qvickundtvisty with the bump in the middle and the barrier on the right. It should have its own name - Jumpundosheisser? Tony Whitley GPLRank -0.54 MonsterRank 497.43 "On some laps I'd get as many as fifteen corners really right, but Moss, he gets them all right on every lap" - Von Trips after the 1961 German Grand Prix.

Think of the first Carousel...now think back 4 turns...the first 2 turns back are those 2 right handers...the next one back is a quick 3rd gear left hander...then the next set of turns back is a right left combo with a little hump in the middle...you are going pretty fast in 4th...maybe 5th gear on the approach. JB EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <yDV07.17243$[email hidden]>, "JanVerschueren"

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> <[email hidden]> writes: > > >I've found it doesn't "pay" to try and keep the car off the ground at > >Fuchsrohre through setup and compromise "stick" on the other 99% of the > >track. So, IMO, it's a matter of a slight lift. > > > >Kesselchen is pretty simple... cut it so as to take the bump square on. > > > > I need to check the track map. I know the first curve, but I can't

picture

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> THIS one... > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

[email hidden] (Alex) wrote:

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>I wonder how you take these (Fuchsrohre and Kesselchen) >two corners. In particular, the first uphill part of >Fuchsrohre has a bump where the car tends to bottom out, >which often creates big problems there. The only reliable >solution I know is to slow down a bit. However, I've made >this corner much faster (gaining 0.8-1.0 sec in that sector), >but that way it bottoms out sometimes, but not always. >I've tried different sides, different angles etc, but without >any conclusion. So what is the secret? :> > >In Kesselchen (first right-left) I have similar problem with >the bump in the middle. Any advise here? > >Thanks in advance, >Alex >(alexti)

Is this the area right after Bergwerk, that left-curvy straight thing? If I'm not mistaken, isn't this where Lauda had his accident in 1976? Ian

| Is this the area right after Bergwerk, that left-curvy straight thing? | If I'm not mistaken, isn't this where Lauda had his accident in 1976? | | Ian Lauda crashed at the left hand kink just before Bergwerk -- Cheers, Robin Lord - Trance DJ & Sim Racer. http://www.oppositelock.co.uk N�rburgring and Grand Prix Legends

"Robin Lord" <[email hidden]> wrote: >| Is this the area right after Bergwerk, that left-curvy straight thing? >| If I'm not mistaken, isn't this where Lauda had his accident in 1976? >| >| Ian > >Lauda crashed at the left hand kink just before Bergwerk Thanks for the info, Robin, I've always wondered exactly where it happened. I knew it was in the general area of Bergwerk. Ian

MP <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: > I think you've just got to take Fuchsrohre just fast enough not to > bottom out, for me that means lifting a bit just before going through > the compression. It does depend on your setup though.That's what I usually do, however I've found out that depending on the line and on where the car points, different amount of lift is required. > How fast are your laptimes? My best is 8:15 in the Lotus, but you may be > much faster than me, in which case can you give *me* advice on how to > get through Fuchsrohre? :)My best is 8:08 in Lotus, however Fuchsrohre is not the place you should listen to my advises about :> Alex (alexti)

"Tony Whitley" <[email hidden]. c o . u k> wrote in news:9i2dcf$gji$[email hidden]:

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> "EldredP" wrote... >> In article <yDV07.17243$[email hidden]>, "Jan >> Verschueren" <[email hidden]> writes: >> >> >I've found it doesn't "pay" to try and keep the car off the ground at >> >Fuchsrohre through setup and compromise "stick" on the other 99% of >> >the track. So, IMO, it's a matter of a slight lift. >> > >> >Kesselchen is pretty simple... cut it so as to take the bump square >> >on. >> > >> >> I need to check the track map. I know the first curve, but I can't >> picture THIS one... > I think he's talking about the right/left at the end of Qvickundtvisty > with the bump in the middle and the barrier on the right. It should > have its own name - Jumpundosheisser?

Yes, that's exactly that corner. Alex (alexti)

"Jesse Black" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:HQ%07.8258$[email hidden]: > I don't know the names...but if you are talking about the dip before > "THE TREE" then I take that dip on the right hand side of the track > (the bump isn't as pronounced there) and with slightly less than full > throttle. Just watch out for the grass on the right and you should be > fine.That's what I am doing. Probably I should just concentrate on lifting just enough but not more.

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> For Kesselchen (I think this is the nurburgring's version of > masta kink) It seems the best bet is to get your right hand turning > done before the bump, and then when you hit the bump, it normally tends > to rotate you to the left, which finishes the corner perfect...I have > yet to have a problem with that corner spinning me. It upsets the car > a bit but just a little bit of neutral throttle will help to keep the > car balanced.

Kesselchen does not spin me either, I just often end up with right wheels [and sometimes left wheels as well) on the grass after that right-left, and then I can not accelerate fast and I am losing a lot of time in that fast section. I will try to complete right hander before the bump, probably my problem is that I am still turning right when I hit the bump. Thanks for advise. Alex (alexti)

Jesse you definitely win the clear explanation award, I was just about to give up this thread cos I don't know my corner names well enough, but once I read your description I knew exactly where we're talking about. Good job :0) Jim "Jesse Black" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ly317.8365$[email hidden]... > Think of the first Carousel...now think back 4 turns...the first 2 turns > back are those 2 right handers...the next one back is a quick 3rd gearleft > hander...then the next set of turns back is a right left combo with alittle

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> hump in the middle...you are going pretty fast in 4th...maybe 5th gear on > the approach. > > JB > > EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <yDV07.17243$[email hidden]>, "Jan > Verschueren" > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > >I've found it doesn't "pay" to try and keep the car off the ground at > > >Fuchsrohre through setup and compromise "stick" on the other 99% of the > > >track. So, IMO, it's a matter of a slight lift. > > > > > >Kesselchen is pretty simple... cut it so as to take the bump square on. > > > > > > > I need to check the track map. I know the first curve, but I can't > picture > > THIS one... > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats > you > > with experience... > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > >

YES BRILLIANT Jesse you did it again :0) In this house "The Tree" is referred to as "Az's Tree" after my neighbour Az managed to hit it on every lap, 12 laps in a row.... Cheerio Jim "Jesse Black" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:HQ%07.8258$[email hidden]... > I don't know the names...but if you are talking about the dip before "THE > TREE" then I take that dip on the right hand side of the track (the bump > isn't as pronounced there) and with slightly less than full throttle.Just > watch out for the grass on the right and you should be fine. ForKesselchen > (I think this is the nurburgring's version of masta kink) It seems thebest > bet is to get your right hand turning done before the bump, and then when > you hit the bump, it normally tends to rotate you to the left, which > finishes the corner perfect...I have yet to have a problem with thatcorner

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> spinning me. It upsets the car a bit but just a little bit of neutral > throttle will help to keep the car balanced. > > JB > > Alex <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I wonder how you take these (Fuchsrohre and Kesselchen) > > two corners. In particular, the first uphill part of > > Fuchsrohre has a bump where the car tends to bottom out, > > which often creates big problems there. The only reliable > > solution I know is to slow down a bit. However, I've made > > this corner much faster (gaining 0.8-1.0 sec in that sector), > > but that way it bottoms out sometimes, but not always. > > I've tried different sides, different angles etc, but without > > any conclusion. So what is the secret? :> > > > > In Kesselchen (first right-left) I have similar problem with > > the bump in the middle. Any advise here? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Alex > > (alexti) > >

I think he's talking about the right/left at the end of Qvickundtvisty with the bump in the middle and the barrier on the right. It should have its own name - Jumpundosheisser? Oder, Schpringungundscheisser (Ich denk) Richard To reply to me remove NoSpam from my email address

Tony Whitley schrieb: [...]

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> I think he's talking about the right/left at the end of Qvickundtvisty with > the bump in the middle and the barrier on the right. It should have its own > name - Jumpundosheisser? > > Tony Whitley > GPLRank -0.54 MonsterRank 497.43 > "On some laps I'd get as many as fifteen corners really right, but Moss, he > gets them all right on every lap" - Von Trips after the 1961 German Grand > Prix.

Yes, and the other one is just before Hitthatsillytree. My strategie for this part is simple and it works every time: 1. shoot down the hill like a mad canon ball 2. when reaching the bump: don't lift - be a man! 3. get those 100 bonus points for exactly hitting the tree 4. press shift-r 5. continue So what's the problem ? :-) Werner

>"Robin Lord" <[email hidden]> wrote > Lauda crashed at the left hand kink just before Bergwerk I just hate that corner (Bergwerk). You can gain like two seconds over a normal straight braking if you trail-brake because of the tightening of the corner radius, but gosh you're so close to spinning there each time. It's probably one of the place where I spin the most, especially since you have that little straight before and you always come up with the dilemma of trail-braking/just braking straight and continuing ;-) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"Jim Seamus" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:I7917.5883$[email hidden]: > YES BRILLIANT Jesse you did it again :0) > > In this house "The Tree" is referred to as "Az's Tree" after my > neighbour Az managed to hit it on every lap, 12 laps in a row....I call it "The Brake Marker" :> Alex (alexti)

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> > Cheerio > Jim > > > "Jesse Black" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:HQ%07.8258$[email hidden]... >> I don't know the names...but if you are talking about the dip before >> "THE TREE" then I take that dip on the right hand side of the track >> <snip>

In article <eTq17.3751$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > I just hate that corner (Bergwerk). You can gain like two seconds over a > normal straight braking if you trail-brake because of the tightening of the > corner radius, but gosh you're so close to spinning there each time. It's > probably one of the place where I spin the most, especially since you have > that little straight before and you always come up with the dilemma of > trail-braking/just braking straight and continuing ;-) I know what you mean, I don't know if it's off camber at all, but I also find it really easy to get too much wheelspin coming out of Bergwerk:-( - Michael

Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:yDV07.17243$[email hidden]... > I've found it doesn't "pay" to try and keep the car off the groundat > Fuchsrohre through setup and compromise "stick" on the other 99% ofthe > track. So, IMO, it's a matter of a slight lift. On compromising 'stick': what ballpark figures for springs, bars and ride height do you quick guys run at the Ring? Mine (springs/bars/RH) are around F: 90/110/3.75 R: 110/80/4.25 and my best time is around 8:39. Jonny

<blush> I'm not all that quick there (PB:8m27something), I just don't make many mistakes in races. Anyhow, according to your notation, I use: F: 65/160/3.5 (70/180/3.75 for heavy cars) R: 95/80/3.5 (105/90/3.75 for heavy cars) dampers bump/rebound F: 2/1 R: 2/2 (2/3 in the Lotus) heavy cars: F: 3/2 R: 3/3 Jan. =--- "jp_hodgson" wrote...

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> > <snip> > On compromising 'stick': > > what ballpark figures for springs, bars and ride > height do you quick guys run at the Ring? > > Mine (springs/bars/RH) are around > F: 90/110/3.75 > R: 110/80/4.25 > and my best time is around 8:39. > > Jonny > >

"jp_hodgson" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:Yin47.45093$[email hidden]:

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> Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:yDV07.17243$[email hidden]... >> I've found it doesn't "pay" to try and keep the car off the ground at >> Fuchsrohre through setup and compromise "stick" on the other 99% of >> the track. So, IMO, it's a matter of a slight lift. > > On compromising 'stick': > > what ballpark figures for springs, bars and ride height do you quick > guys run at the Ring? > > Mine (springs/bars/RH) are around > F: 90/110/3.75 > R: 110/80/4.25 > and my best time is around 8:39.

F: 75/160/3.25 R: 90/120/3.75 PB 8:07.something Alex (alexti)

Hmmm... interesting set of numbers. Have to give that a go sometime. What damper settings do you use with that? Jan. =--- "Alex" wrote...

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> <snip> > F: 75/160/3.25 > R: 90/120/3.75 > PB 8:07.something > > Alex > (alexti)

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: > Hmmm... interesting set of numbers. Have to give that a go sometime.It is Wolfgang Woeger's setup (for Lotus). > What damper settings do you use with that?Front: 2/3, Rear: 2/3. Alex (alexti)

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> > Jan. >=--- > "Alex" wrote... >> <snip> >> F: 75/160/3.25 >> R: 90/120/3.75 >> PB 8:07.something >> >> Alex >> (alexti) > >

It is Wolfgang Woeger's setup (for Lotus). Front: 2/3, Rear: 2/3. Alex (alexti)

Thanks guys - softened the springs off and found nearly 4 seconds! It's more forgiving now, except for a couple of compressions where the nose is hitting the floor, and it definitely has more lateral grip. Looks like I was taking Alison Hine's 'high and stiff' approach a little too far ;-) Jonny > > On compromising 'stick': > > > > what ballpark figures for springs, bars and ride height do youquick

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> > guys run at the Ring? > > > > Mine (springs/bars/RH) are around > > F: 90/110/3.75 > > R: 110/80/4.25 > > and my best time is around 8:39. > F: 75/160/3.25 > R: 90/120/3.75 > PB 8:07.something