Will iRacing ever produce a PC sim ?

Anyone notice the web site at www.iRacing.com ? It gives me the impression that iRacing is only going to produce or license code for commercial simulators or pay to play arcade systems or something. Anyone know what the scoop is with DKs company ? Have they changed there original plans after changing there name from first ?

Wow, quite a change to their website. Also, no more mention of those nasty court battles... Maybe they're waiting the release of rFactor to see what is offered by another company. I'm certainly eagerly awaiting their upcoming sim. P.S. DB wrote:

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> Anyone notice the web site at www.iRacing.com ? > > It gives me the impression that iRacing is only going to > produce or license code for commercial simulators or > pay to play arcade systems or something. > > Anyone know what the scoop is with DKs company ? > > Have they changed there original plans after changing there > name from first ? > >

DB wrote: > It gives me the impression that iRacing is only going to > produce or license code for commercial simulators or > pay to play arcade systems or something. It says they're planning on releasing the next generation of auto racing simulations. I'm sure whatever they do will be light-years ahead of everyone else, regardless of how you feel about the community politics angle.

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> DB wrote: > >> It gives me the impression that iRacing is only going to >> produce or license code for commercial simulators or >> pay to play arcade systems or something. > > It says they're planning on releasing the next generation of auto > racing simulations. I'm sure whatever they do will be light-years > ahead of everyone else, regardless of how you feel about the community > politics angle.

Why is that? -- David G Fisher

David G Fisher wrote: > Why is that? DK has been one step of the competition with everything he's released in the past 15 years. Why would that end now?

jason moyer wrote: > David G Fisher wrote: > > > Why is that? > > DK has been one step of the competition with everything he's released > in the past 15 years. Why would that end now? +ahead

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > jason moyer wrote: >> David G Fisher wrote: >> >> > Why is that? >> >> DK has been one step of the competition with everything he's released >> in the past 15 years. Why would that end now? > > +ahead

He doesn't have the same competition he had 3, 5, 10, or 15 years ago. -- David G Fisher

David G Fisher wrote: > He doesn't have the same competition he had 3, 5, 10, or 15 years ago. The only real competition is the same company that was his main competitor from what...1998 to 2003?

jason moyer wrote: > The only real competition is the same company that was his main > competitor from what...1998 to 2003? Actually, from 98-2001 he also had MGI to contend with, and they're gone now. As is Warthog, whom he'll never really have to worry about.

>> ahead of everyone else, regardless of how you feel about the community >> politics angle.I just asked a simple question, No politics on my part ... I have loved and purchased every DK sim produced and am looking forward to another one. ... hopefully .. Just wondering if anyone in ras is in the know and can share. >>It says they're planning on releasing the next generation of auto >>racing simulations.It doesn't say for the PC though

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1126222550.952108.240690 @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

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> > jason moyer wrote: > >> The only real competition is the same company that was his main >> competitor from what...1998 to 2003? > > Actually, from 98-2001 he also had MGI to contend with, and they're > gone now. As is Warthog, whom he'll never really have to worry about. > >

Lets see Jason, :) just a few things off the top of my head, And I say this as a Papy user from ICR1 thru Nr2k3. I love the stuff they have done and I appreciate the brillance of most of their efforts. But they have not been a step ahead in all areas. After GPL they backed away from multi-chassis physics. i.e. each car behaves differently. Since then..7 or so years, we have had 1 basic physics package with very little difference between makes even when they did have more than one physics package. Most of the F1 sims have had dynamic weather for years. Storms rolling in and back out. Other than a breeze and a temperature change between sessions, Papyrus has been very limited in it's weather presentation. I will say though, that Papy/Kaemmer have done many things extremely well, the best controller code, the best multiplayer code, the best FF until RBR or GTR. I am the middle of the road kinda guy. I race Papy more with leagues and race ISI stuff more offline. Go figure. dave henrie

Dave Henrie wrote: > I will say though, that Papy/Kaemmer have done many things extremely > well, the best controller code, the best multiplayer code, the best FF > until RBR or GTR. > > I am the middle of the road kinda guy. I race Papy more with leagues > and race ISI stuff more offline. Go figure. The only acceptable offline experience I've ever found is GP4 (not counting RBR, which involves a fairly simple and modifiable quasi-AI), and I've finally gotten so sick of the physics I can even use the AI as an excuse for driving it anymore. :) Even rFactor, which I think has improved the base set by previous ISI sims somewhat in terms of the main things that bothered me (the "feel" of the car and the net code) still lacks something in terms of the raw driving experience for me. The ultimate test of any sim for me is whether I can load up a test session and spend an hour driving alone and actually feel like I accomplished something. I don't know why, but I've never felt that way about any ISI sim, rFactor included. Jason

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1126230796.501053.57530 @g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

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> The only acceptable offline experience I've ever found is GP4 (not > counting RBR, which involves a fairly simple and modifiable quasi-AI), > and I've finally gotten so sick of the physics I can even use the AI as > an excuse for driving it anymore. :) > > Even rFactor, which I think has improved the base set by previous ISI > sims somewhat in terms of the main things that bothered me (the "feel" > of the car and the net code) still lacks something in terms of the raw > driving experience for me. The ultimate test of any sim for me is > whether I can load up a test session and spend an hour driving alone > and actually feel like I accomplished something. I don't know why, but > I've never felt that way about any ISI sim, rFactor included. > > Jason

And nothng wrong with that. dh

DB wrote: > It doesn't say for the PC though I got 100 bucks that say's Laemmer's next game is a console racer.

jason moyer wrote:

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> Dave Henrie wrote: > > >> I will say though, that Papy/Kaemmer have done many things extremely >>well, the best controller code, the best multiplayer code, the best FF >>until RBR or GTR. >> >> I am the middle of the road kinda guy. I race Papy more with leagues >>and race ISI stuff more offline. Go figure. > > > The only acceptable offline experience I've ever found is GP4 (not > counting RBR, which involves a fairly simple and modifiable quasi-AI), > and I've finally gotten so sick of the physics I can even use the AI as > an excuse for driving it anymore. :) > > Even rFactor, which I think has improved the base set by previous ISI > sims somewhat in terms of the main things that bothered me (the "feel" > of the car and the net code) still lacks something in terms of the raw > driving experience for me. The ultimate test of any sim for me is > whether I can load up a test session and spend an hour driving alone > and actually feel like I accomplished something. I don't know why, but > I've never felt that way about any ISI sim, rFactor included. > > Jason >

Try it with a big screen, act-labs shifter, 3D glasses and Trackir. Do you still drive with a keyboard?

On 8 Sep 2005 16:20:36 -0700, jason moyer wrote:

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> David G Fisher wrote: > >> Why is that? > > DK has been one step of the competition with everything he's released > in the past 15 years. Why would that end now? >

Everything has to end. Anybody remember this guy called Geoff Crammond? ;-) I hope you're right about whatever iRacing releases, though. All the best, uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Uwe Sch�rkamp wrote:

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> On 8 Sep 2005 16:20:36 -0700, jason moyer wrote: > >>David G Fisher wrote: >> >> >>>Why is that? >> >>DK has been one step of the competition with everything he's released >>in the past 15 years. Why would that end now? >> > > > Everything has to end. Anybody remember this guy called Geoff Crammond? > ;-)

The man was passing off old code as new. From GP1 through to 4, the only thing what was new were the textures. Even the fanboys were the same. Revs = fantastic, Revs+ = brill, GP1, amazing - everything else = crap.

> Even rFactor, which I think has improved the base set by previous ISI > sims somewhat in terms of the main things that bothered me (the "feel" > of the car and the net code) still lacks something in terms of the raw > driving experience for me. Sounds exactly like what Jonathan Davis said (but pretty much nobody else.) Been spending too much time in #gpl eh?

Steve Simpson wrote: > Sounds exactly like what Jonathan Davis said (but pretty much nobody > else.) Been spending too much time in #gpl eh? I haven't been in #GPL in like 3 years. Not much interest in the sim since Nascar 2002 came out.

Whooo wrote: > Try it with a big screen, act-labs shifter, 3D glasses and Trackir. Do > you still drive with a keyboard? Actually, I drive without force feedback. Somehow Papy sims and even RBR with its incredibly basic cockpit view manage to convey the information I need to feel in control of the car without having some over-exaggerated motorized wheel in my hands. I've never felt truly in control of the car in ISI sims. *shrug* I think the "feel" being conveyed by the cockpit is much better in rFactor than anything they've done previously, but the sound is totally useless.

Uwe Schürkamp wrote: > Everything has to end. Anybody remember this guy called Geoff Crammond? You mean the guy who owns the distinction of making the only modern F1 sim with artificial intelligence and real tracks?

>> Everything has to end. Anybody remember this guy called Geoff Crammond? > > You mean the guy who owns the distinction of making the only modern F1 > sim with artificial intelligence and real tracks? sim? No wonder you think ISI games have no feel if you think GP4 is a sim....explains a lot

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> DB wrote: > >> It gives me the impression that iRacing is only going to >> produce or license code for commercial simulators or >> pay to play arcade systems or something. > > It says they're planning on releasing the next generation of auto > racing simulations. I'm sure whatever they do will be light-years > ahead of everyone else, regardless of how you feel about the community > politics angle. >

Well, to go one up on rFactor they'll need to have weather for starters. Assuming rFactor will end up with good online weather (bad idea, I know) then iRacing will have the ability to maybe just eclipse rFactor with better replays and results. I hope they release a good comprehensive manual for rFactor too - the readme is very sketchy and unintuitive.

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... Uwe Sch�rkamp wrote: > Everything has to end. Anybody remember this guy called Geoff Crammond? You mean the guy who owns the distinction of making the only modern F1 sim with artificial intelligence and real tracks? .........and no multiplayer, and fixed frame rates, and lack of support for Voodoo II cards with GP3, and....................

Not just them, but I got to say I am sick of hearing about companies with say 3 people who have worked in some field all for about the same 10 years, going off and spouting "we got 30 years" in the business... Bulshit, you have 10 maybe 12 because this guy did it a couple years before those guys... DB enlightened us with:

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> Anyone notice the web site at www.iRacing.com ? > > It gives me the impression that iRacing is only going to > produce or license code for commercial simulators or > pay to play arcade systems or something. > > Anyone know what the scoop is with DKs company ? > > Have they changed there original plans after changing there > name from first ?

Shit, I am about ready to take that bet, would that mean, if he ports it to console after PC I have to give you the money back? [email hidden] enlightened us with: > DB wrote: > >> It doesn't say for the PC though > > I got 100 bucks that say's Laemmer's next game is a console racer.

jason moyer wrote:

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> Whooo wrote: > > >>Try it with a big screen, act-labs shifter, 3D glasses and Trackir. Do >>you still drive with a keyboard? > > > Actually, I drive without force feedback. Somehow Papy sims and even > RBR with its incredibly basic cockpit view manage to convey the > information I need to feel in control of the car without having some > over-exaggerated motorized wheel in my hands. I've never felt truly in > control of the car in ISI sims. *shrug* I think the "feel" being > conveyed by the cockpit is much better in rFactor than anything they've > done previously, but the sound is totally useless. >

The sound is one of the nigh points in rf, for me. And as for the amount of feel I get for the contact patches of the tyres through the FFB wheel, well, I'm blown away! Pound to a penny, it's your minimalistic approach which is holding back your enjoyment.

jason moyer wrote:

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> Uwe Sch�rkamp wrote: > > >>Everything has to end. Anybody remember this guy called Geoff Crammond? > > > You mean the guy who owns the distinction of making the only modern F1 > sim with artificial intelligence and real tracks? >

A sim? Please tell me you're joking!

Steve Simpson wrote: > sim? No wonder you think ISI games have no feel if you think GP4 is a > sim....explains a lot How is GP4 not a sim? I didn't say the physics were very good, but that doesn't change whether or not it's a sim. The physics in every ISI game have been a joke but I don't go around telling people they aren't sims, ffs.

Byron Forbes wrote: > Well, to go one up on rFactor they'll need to have weather for starters. rFactor has weather?

I'd agree with that sentiment. I havent crunched any numbers but Id throw out a guess that the group that endlessly complain about the ISI sims arent using FF wheels. Hell I'd be po'd too had I spent over a grand on a wheel that is nearly useless in ISI sims ;) While not perfect rFactor is the best we currently have. Mitch "Sidney H Bridge" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:G7hUe.655$[email hidden]...

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> jason moyer wrote: >> Whooo wrote: >> >> >>>Try it with a big screen, act-labs shifter, 3D glasses and Trackir. Do >>>you still drive with a keyboard? >> >> >> Actually, I drive without force feedback. Somehow Papy sims and even >> RBR with its incredibly basic cockpit view manage to convey the >> information I need to feel in control of the car without having some >> over-exaggerated motorized wheel in my hands. I've never felt truly in >> control of the car in ISI sims. *shrug* I think the "feel" being >> conveyed by the cockpit is much better in rFactor than anything they've >> done previously, but the sound is totally useless. >> > > The sound is one of the nigh points in rf, for me. And as for the amount > of feel I get for the contact patches of the tyres through the FFB wheel, > well, I'm blown away! > > Pound to a penny, it's your minimalistic approach which is holding back > your enjoyment.

You sure make a lot of noise for being uninterested JM. Mitch "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Steve Simpson wrote: > >> Sounds exactly like what Jonathan Davis said (but pretty much nobody >> else.) Been spending too much time in #gpl eh? > > I haven't been in #GPL in like 3 years. Not much interest in the sim > since Nascar 2002 came out. >

Ive seen all kinds in here over the last decade but comparing GP4 to rFactor takes the grand prize. Even ymenards self proclaimed presidency of ras looks sane by comparison, hehe. Mitch "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:dfs53e$se6$[email hidden]...

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> > "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > Uwe Sch�rkamp wrote: > >> Everything has to end. Anybody remember this guy called Geoff Crammond? > > You mean the guy who owns the distinction of making the only modern F1 > sim with artificial intelligence and real tracks? > > .........and no multiplayer, and fixed frame rates, and lack of support > for Voodoo II cards with GP3, and.................... > >

> I think the "feel" being conveyed by the cockpit is much > better in rFactor than anything they've done previously, > but the sound is totally useless. For most games, I find the solution to the sound issue is to turn up the tire related sound and to turn down the engine and opponent sounds if needed. Listen to the videos I've created and you can hear tire noises in all of them (F1C99-02 you only hear them at slow speed though, I didn't turn down the engine noise). For GPL, I use an alternate, quieter sound for the engine when hot lapping, but then switch to a louder one if I'm going to convert a replay into a video.

Mitch_A wrote: > You sure make a lot of noise for being uninterested JM. I make a lot of noise about GPL?

About your dislike of any ISI stuff. If ya dont like it fine but comparing it to GP4??? To me thats just noise ;) Mitch "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Mitch_A wrote: > >> You sure make a lot of noise for being uninterested JM. > > I make a lot of noise about GPL? >

jason moyer wrote:

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> Actually, I drive without force feedback. Somehow Papy sims and even > RBR with its incredibly basic cockpit view manage to convey the > information I need to feel in control of the car without having some > over-exaggerated motorized wheel in my hands. I've never felt truly in > control of the car in ISI sims. *shrug* I think the "feel" being > conveyed by the cockpit is much better in rFactor than anything they've > done previously, but the sound is totally useless.

Interesting as I have only recently taken to FF (DFPro), so I consider myself bought up on graphical and audible cues for "feel" rather than anything through the steering wheel. Going way way back with my first real racing sim (Indy 500) I didn't have a sound card so I just used graphical cues. I think graphics is my primary input. For me this is the first ISI sim to have that feel that matches or even surpasses Papy sims. I don't have an issue with the sound as an input to car behaviour. Maybe it is because I started this sim with FFB and the FFB helps a lot such that I have retrained my old brain... Cheers Tony

Tony Rickard wrote: <SNIP> > Going way way back with my first > real racing sim (Indy 500) <SNIP> Revs (Geoff Crammond) was the first real racing sim.

jason moyer wrote:

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> Byron Forbes wrote: > > >> Well, to go one up on rFactor they'll need to have weather for starters. > > > rFactor has weather? >

Yes. Sunny or cloudy. No rain, though - yet!

Mitch_A wrote: > Ive seen all kinds in here over the last decade but comparing GP4 to rFactor > takes the grand prize. > > Even ymenards self proclaimed presidency of ras looks sane by comparison, > hehe. Although I see Jason's point that GP4 was a complete F1 package. Fully working AI, all the tracks, excellent weather and a degree of atmosphere. rFactor is much more of a tool to build your own package, partly due to the limited tracks for a championship but mostly due to the AI not being consistently up to scratch. Initially this is a bit of a disappointment. However, once online in the OW trainers the disappointment goes away and the realisation that all that is needed is the tool for leagues and modders to do their stuff to complete the package. rFactor feels a bit lightweight compared to the milestone releases in the past, yet I believe it will be a milestone in the history of OW sim racing along with Indy 500, F1GP, ICR, GP2 and GPL on my list at least. Cheers Tony

Sidney H Bridge wrote:

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> Tony Rickard wrote: > > <SNIP> > >> Going way way back with my first >> real racing sim (Indy 500) <SNIP> > > > Revs (Geoff Crammond) was the first real racing sim.

Though not *my* first real racing sim... Indy500 was my introduction to sim racing. I'm either not *that* old or maybe just a late starter :) Cheers Tony

Mitch_A wrote: > About your dislike of any ISI stuff. If ya dont like it fine but comparing > it to GP4??? To me thats just noise ;) I simply said GP4 had great AI and realistic tracks, whereas F1C didn't. I certainly don't rate it higher.

Sidney H Bridge wrote: > A sim? Please tell me you're joking! So you think Revs was a sim, but GP4 wasn't? Wtf?

As we get closer to reality the margin between groundbreaking and just another racing sim has blurred to the point of invisibility. This is one reason why there can never be another GPL no matter how great the current sim is. Mitch "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:enkUe.105594$[email hidden]...

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> Mitch_A wrote: >> Ive seen all kinds in here over the last decade but comparing GP4 to >> rFactor takes the grand prize. >> >> Even ymenards self proclaimed presidency of ras looks sane by comparison, >> hehe. > > Although I see Jason's point that GP4 was a complete F1 package. Fully > working AI, all the tracks, excellent weather and a degree of atmosphere. > > rFactor is much more of a tool to build your own package, partly due to > the limited tracks for a championship but mostly due to the AI not being > consistently up to scratch. Initially this is a bit of a disappointment. > However, once online in the OW trainers the disappointment goes away and > the realisation that all that is needed is the tool for leagues and > modders to do their stuff to complete the package. > > rFactor feels a bit lightweight compared to the milestone releases in the > past, yet I believe it will be a milestone in the history of OW sim racing > along with Indy 500, F1GP, ICR, GP2 and GPL on my list at least. > > Cheers > Tony

Sidney H Bridge wrote: > Yes. Sunny or cloudy. No rain, though - yet! So what exactly can it do that you can't do in N2003, weather-wise?

Tony Rickard wrote:

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> Mitch_A wrote: > >> Ive seen all kinds in here over the last decade but comparing GP4 to >> rFactor takes the grand prize. >> >> Even ymenards self proclaimed presidency of ras looks sane by >> comparison, hehe. > > > Although I see Jason's point that GP4 was a complete F1 package. Fully > working AI, all the tracks, excellent weather and a degree of atmosphere. > > rFactor is much more of a tool to build your own package, partly due to > the limited tracks for a championship but mostly due to the AI not being > consistently up to scratch. Initially this is a bit of a disappointment. > However, once online in the OW trainers the disappointment goes away and > the realisation that all that is needed is the tool for leagues and > modders to do their stuff to complete the package. > > rFactor feels a bit lightweight compared to the milestone releases in > the past, yet I believe it will be a milestone in the history of OW sim > racing along with Indy 500, F1GP, ICR, GP2 and GPL on my list at least. > > Cheers > Tony

No way was GP2 a milestone. A millstone more like!!

Sidney H Bridge wrote:

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>> rFactor feels a bit lightweight compared to the milestone releases in >> the past, yet I believe it will be a milestone in the history of OW >> sim racing along with Indy 500, F1GP, ICR, GP2 and GPL on my list at >> least. >> >> Cheers >> Tony > > No way was GP2 a milestone. A millstone more like!!

I pondered over that one. I still think it was a major release but came out just before accelerated graphics cards started to be released. Plus it was the first real F1 sim for 4 years. After that we had a string of them. Regardless of its shortcomings I think it was a milestone, just a shortlived one. The millstone was the fact that the shortcomings carried over into the later releases not on my list! Cheers Tony

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 21:05:40 GMT, Sidney H Bridge <[email hidden]> wrote: >No way was GP2 a milestone. A millstone more like!! Bet you never even played it. GP2 was very popular around here. For it's day it was very good.

Sidney H Bridge wrote: > No way was GP2 a milestone. A millstone more like!! When GP2 came out, what was better?

>> No way was GP2 a milestone. A millstone more like!! > > When GP2 came out, what was better? Need for Speed (I'm serious)

> I pondered over that one. I still think it was a major release but came > out just before accelerated graphics cards started to be released. Plus > it was the first real F1 sim for 4 years. After that we had a string of > them. Regardless of its shortcomings I think it was a milestone, just a > shortlived one. The millstone was the fact that the shortcomings carried > over into the later releases not on my list! Agreed. I was actually a GP2 fan but it arrived about a year late for what it was. GP3 & GP4 were disappointing because the physics were basically the same as GP2 which had been stomped by Papy with GPL.

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Sidney H Bridge wrote: > >> Yes. Sunny or cloudy. No rain, though - yet! > > So what exactly can it do that you can't do in N2003, weather-wise? > Nothing yet, but weather is planned for future patches/upgrades or whatever.

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Sidney H Bridge wrote: > >> No way was GP2 a milestone. A millstone more like!! > > When GP2 came out, what was better? > ICR2 - as you must surely know! I'm sure I saw you all about the ICR2 seen back then didn't I? GP2 - great for test sessions and a glimpse of the future. Slow mo cheating. ICR2 - great fully usable product and an excellent offline league platform. Along with Nascar (Hawaii), ICR2 marks the beginning of sim racing as a sport - thanks to Papyrus (Kaemer).

"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:WWkUe.3193$[email hidden]... > As we get closer to reality the margin between groundbreaking and just > another racing sim has blurred to the point of invisibility. This is one > reason why there can never be another GPL no matter how great the current > sim is. > Yes, there are a lot of good, new things in rfactor though. 3 types of starts - rolling, standing and standing with warmup lap. We finally have a dedicted road racer (not Nascar ovals) with proper, excellent multi - hip, hip hoo fucking ray! (only took 7 years since GPL ffs) Excellent graphics, changing light conditions that function properly, smoothly and look fantastic. In 6-12 months we will probably have every track and series you can imagine! For my money, if they get the results working properly and we get comprehensive stats then this is the best thing since................sliced bread........................and...............................GPL. Taking exponentiallity into account, it's probably as revolutionary as GPL was.

>"Sidney H Bridge" <[email hidden]> wrote > No way was GP2 a milestone. A millstone more like!! What drug are you on? GP2 at its release was at the top. Cmon it was released in _1995_ That's a year after Nascar Racing 1, a year before IndyCar Racing 2. It was the top simulator available, heck it was the _only_ simulator with Nascar1. So it had major flaws, well all the sims back then had them. You need a lesson in sim history <g> -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote > ICR2 - as you must surely know! I'm sure I saw you all about the ICR2 seen > back then didn't I? Icr2 was released half a year after GP2. While beloved, Icr2 had major flaws itself, no wheel-spin (!!!), laughable physics on ovals, AI that was below the one found in Gp2 (which was acceptable at its best). I'm not putting Gp2 on a pedestral, but to say that Gp2 was bad, well people just have short memories. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

ymenard wrote:

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> What drug are you on? GP2 at its release was at the top. Cmon it was > released in _1995_ That's a year after Nascar Racing 1, a year before > IndyCar Racing 2. It was the top simulator available, heck it was the > _only_ simulator with Nascar1. So it had major flaws, well all the sims > back then had them. > > You need a lesson in sim history <g>

In the UK GP2 was released July/August '96. I remember cos I diverted the family to the PC store on the way back from the airport from our hols! ICR2 was released December '95 as I recall. For me ICR2 updated ICR1 with the Nascar1 graphics engine and wasan evolution, hence not making it in my milestone list. Cheers Tony

Praxiteles Democritus wrote:

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> On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 21:05:40 GMT, Sidney H Bridge > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >>No way was GP2 a milestone. A millstone more like!! > > > Bet you never even played it. GP2 was very popular around here. For > it's day it was very good.

Then you'd lose your bet, sonny.

jason moyer wrote:

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> Sidney H Bridge wrote: > > >>No way was GP2 a milestone. A millstone more like!! > > > When GP2 came out, what was better? >

ICR2.

ymenard wrote:

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>>"Sidney H Bridge" <[email hidden]> wrote >>No way was GP2 a milestone. A millstone more like!! > > > > What drug are you on? GP2 at its release was at the top. Cmon it was > released in _1995_ That's a year after Nascar Racing 1, a year before > IndyCar Racing 2. It was the top simulator available, heck it was the > _only_ simulator with Nascar1. So it had major flaws, well all the sims > back then had them. > > > You need a lesson in sim history <g> > >

You're the one in need of a history lesso - as you must have worked out by now. Let's not forget the ICR2 had a version that ran on Rendition cards. Oh, yeah, it also had working multi-player. As a sim, GP2 was a joke. The fact it was an F1 game made it a fun hotlap toy and very popular with F1 fanboys. A sim? Don't be silly! -- SHB

Byron Forbes wrote:

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> "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:WWkUe.3193$[email hidden]... > >>As we get closer to reality the margin between groundbreaking and just >>another racing sim has blurred to the point of invisibility. This is one >>reason why there can never be another GPL no matter how great the current >>sim is. >> > > > Yes, there are a lot of good, new things in rfactor though. > > 3 types of starts - rolling, standing and standing with warmup lap. > We finally have a dedicted road racer (not Nascar ovals) with proper, > excellent multi - hip, hip hoo fucking ray! (only took 7 years since GPL > ffs) > Excellent graphics, changing light conditions that function properly, > smoothly and look fantastic. > In 6-12 months we will probably have every track and series you can > imagine! > > For my money, if they get the results working properly and we get > comprehensive stats then this is the best thing since................sliced > bread........................and...............................GPL. Taking > exponentiallity into account, it's probably as revolutionary as GPL was. > >

Agreed.

Tony Rickard wrote: > In the UK GP2 was released July/August '96. I remember cos I diverted > the family to the PC store on the way back from the airport from our hols! > > ICR2 was released December '95 as I recall. I thought everyone had their timelines wrong...

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42PUe.21273$[email hidden]...

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> >"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote >> ICR2 - as you must surely know! I'm sure I saw you all about the ICR2 >> seen >> back then didn't I? > > > Icr2 was released half a year after GP2. While beloved, Icr2 had major > flaws itself, no wheel-spin (!!!), laughable physics on ovals, AI that was > below the one found in Gp2 (which was acceptable at its best). > > I'm not putting Gp2 on a pedestral, but to say that Gp2 was bad, well > people just have short memories. >

GP2 also inspired an incredibly involving offline competitive environment. That experience has since been eclipsed by good online racing, but in its day, it was addictive and it was no problem at all to find the motivation to run a full-length offline race just to submit the final result to an offline league. The first time you went up and over after touching the wheel of a competitor, you knew GP2 had something in its bag of tricks which ICR2 didn't. Too bad Crammond just missed 3D acceleration with that release, but the lighting effects he produced in software mode were sweet. Stephen ------------ And now a word from our sponsor ------------------ Do your users want the best web-email gateway? Don't let your customers drift off to free webmail services install your own web gateway! -- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_webmail.htm ----

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 12:49:08 GMT, Sidney H Bridge <[email hidden]> wrote: >ICR2. GP2 was out before ICR2, sonny.

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 12:49:08 GMT, Sidney H Bridge >ICR2. GP2 was out before ICR2, sonny.

"Praxiteles Democritus" wrote... >>ICR2. > > GP2 was out before ICR2, sonny. And was promptly rendered obsolete... Jan.<g> =---

Praxiteles Democritus wrote: > GP2 was out before ICR2, sonny. ICR2 was out in 1995. GP2 came out in 96, no?

jason moyer wrote: > Praxiteles Democritus wrote: > > > GP2 was out before ICR2, sonny. > > ICR2 was out in 1995. GP2 came out in 96, no? In chronological order, what I would consider the best available sim: 1994 - Nascar Racing 1995 - Indycar Racing 2 (which was reissued in 1996 as CART Racing) 1996 - Grand Prix 2 1998 - Grand Prix Legends2001 - Nascar Racing 4 2002 - Nascar Racing 2002 2003 - Nascar Racing 2003 2004 - Richard Burns Rally 2006? - iRacing

On 12 Sep 2005 17:23:17 -0700, "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote: >ICR2 was out in 1995. GP2 came out in 96, no? http://www.gamestats.com/objects/003/003337/ IndyCar Racing 2 Release Date: 12/12/96 http://www.gamespot.com/pc/driving/grandprix2/review.html Grand Prix II Release Date: 06/30/1996

Praxiteles Democritus wrote:

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> On 12 Sep 2005 17:23:17 -0700, "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >>ICR2 was out in 1995. GP2 came out in 96, no? > > > http://www.gamestats.com/objects/003/003337/ > IndyCar Racing 2 > > Release Date: 12/12/96 > > http://www.gamespot.com/pc/driving/grandprix2/review.html > Grand Prix II > > Release Date: 06/30/1996

The original DOS only version of ICR2 was released in November/December 1995. I know cos I bought it then! From Alison Hine's site: "But oh, those graphics! While the original version of ICR2 was state-of-the-art in late 1995 when it was released, its graphics have since been eclipsed by GP2, which has much better texture mapping and a variety of visual improvements which lend greater realism. When GP2 came out in the summer of 96, this realism was so appealing that I stopped playing ICR2 altogether."

Praxiteles Democritus wrote: > http://www.gamestats.com/objects/003/003337/ > IndyCar Racing 2 > > Release Date: 12/12/96 That's when the reissue as CART Racing came out. ICR2 was summer of 95.

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hgvVe.107748$[email hidden]...

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> Praxiteles Democritus wrote: >> On 12 Sep 2005 17:23:17 -0700, "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >> >>>ICR2 was out in 1995. GP2 came out in 96, no? >> >> >> http://www.gamestats.com/objects/003/003337/ >> IndyCar Racing 2 >> >> Release Date: 12/12/96 >> http://www.gamespot.com/pc/driving/grandprix2/review.html >> Grand Prix II >> >> Release Date: 06/30/1996 > > The original DOS only version of ICR2 was released in November/December > 1995. I know cos I bought it then! > > From Alison Hine's site: > > "But oh, those graphics! While the original version of ICR2 was > state-of-the-art in late 1995 when it was released, its graphics have > since been eclipsed by GP2, which has much better texture mapping and a > variety of visual improvements which lend greater realism. When GP2 came > out in the summer of 96, this realism was so appealing that I stopped > playing ICR2 altogether."

And even with 6 months extra cpu evolution, at a time when cpu evolution rate was VERY high, GP2 still ran like a pig. GP2 was good for testing sessions and a glimpse of the future unless you liked being a slow mo league king with the keyboard. Just junk really.

Praxiteles Democritus wrote:

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> On 12 Sep 2005 17:23:17 -0700, "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >>ICR2 was out in 1995. GP2 came out in 96, no? > > > http://www.gamestats.com/objects/003/003337/ > IndyCar Racing 2 > > Release Date: 12/12/96

Wrong, sonny.

Byron Forbes wrote:

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> "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:hgvVe.107748$[email hidden]... > >>Praxiteles Democritus wrote: >> >>>On 12 Sep 2005 17:23:17 -0700, "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>ICR2 was out in 1995. GP2 came out in 96, no? >>> >>> >>>http://www.gamestats.com/objects/003/003337/ >>>IndyCar Racing 2 >>> >>>Release Date: 12/12/96 >>>http://www.gamespot.com/pc/driving/grandprix2/review.html >>>Grand Prix II >>> >>>Release Date: 06/30/1996 >> >>The original DOS only version of ICR2 was released in November/December >>1995. I know cos I bought it then! >> >>From Alison Hine's site: >> >>"But oh, those graphics! While the original version of ICR2 was >>state-of-the-art in late 1995 when it was released, its graphics have >>since been eclipsed by GP2, which has much better texture mapping and a >>variety of visual improvements which lend greater realism. When GP2 came >>out in the summer of 96, this realism was so appealing that I stopped >>playing ICR2 altogether." > > > And even with 6 months extra cpu evolution, at a time when cpu evolution > rate was VERY high, GP2 still ran like a pig. GP2 was good for testing > sessions and a glimpse of the future unless you liked being a slow mo league > king with the keyboard. Just junk really. > >

Exactly. A silly little hotlap toy for F1 fanboys, and nothing more.

On 13 Sep 2005 01:03:03 -0700, "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Praxiteles Democritus wrote: > >> http://www.gamestats.com/objects/003/003337/ >> IndyCar Racing 2 >> >> Release Date: 12/12/96 > >That's when the reissue as CART Racing came out. ICR2 was summer of 95.

It says ICR2 on that website and not CART. But you may be correct as I also had the Dos version and I now seem to remember playing it before GP2.

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 13:38:25 GMT, Sidney H Bridge <[email hidden]> wrote: >Wrong, sonny. OK, gramps.

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 13:38:25 GMT, Sidney H Bridge >Wrong, sonny. OK, gramps.

Praxiteles Democritus wrote:

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> On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 13:38:25 GMT, Sidney H Bridge > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >>Wrong, sonny. > > > OK, gramps.

NP, boy. :)

> On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 13:38:25 GMT, Sidney H Bridge >>Wrong, sonny. > OK, gramps. NP, boy. :)

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>"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote > And even with 6 months extra cpu evolution, at a time when cpu > evolution > rate was VERY high, GP2 still ran like a pig. GP2 was good for testing > sessions and a glimpse of the future unless you liked being a slow mo > league > king with the keyboard. Just junk really.

Technically anybody could run GP2 with all the graphics at 25fps... ...It would just take you 4 minutes to go around the circuit ;) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

ymenard wrote:

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>>"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote >> And even with 6 months extra cpu evolution, at a time when cpu >>evolution >>rate was VERY high, GP2 still ran like a pig. GP2 was good for testing >>sessions and a glimpse of the future unless you liked being a slow mo >>league >>king with the keyboard. Just junk really. > > > > Technically anybody could run GP2 with all the graphics at 25fps... > > > > ...It would just take you 4 minutes to go around the circuit ;) > > > > >

More importantly, to me it never felt like the car had wheels.

ymenard wrote: > Technically anybody could run GP2 with all the graphics at 25fps... > > ...It would just take you 4 minutes to go around the circuit ;) I thought I had lightening reflexes but then I upgraded my PC...

Sidney H Bridge wrote: > Exactly. A silly little hotlap toy for F1 fanboys, and nothing more. Except that GP2 (and 3 and 4) actually have AI that can complete laps without smashing headfirst into every barrier, and generally behave like humans. If anything was a "silly little hotlap toy" it was the EA F1 series ISI put out, since both the multiplayer and the AI sucked dick.

jason moyer wrote: > If anything was a "silly little hotlap toy" it was the EA F1 series ISI > put out, since both the multiplayer and the AI sucked dick. That sounds harsher than I intended. What I meant really, is that the only good thing about the ISI series were the physics. The Crammond games were excellent in every area *except* the physics and multiplayer.

>"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote > That sounds harsher than I intended. What I meant really, is that the > only good thing about the ISI series were the physics. The Crammond > games were excellent in every area *except* the physics and multiplayer. The Crammond series was plagued with so many idiosyncrasies that it's no surprise that Geoff ain't able to release a sim anymore. It's a relic of the 80's way of making a game. iRacing has much more chances of producing a quality sim than him lending his name on a box. The friggin menus were the same in GP4 than those in World Circuit. That's one of the big gripe, he never understood proper gui, that tree branching of menus in the system was so poor, so against any proper logistic. The game engine, the file architecture, all those little thingies are all relics of past times. That friggin bmp of a hand wiping your visor that stuck for oh-so-many-releases. The way even in GP4, it wasn't true 3d with many sprites and 2d process of the physics. The time-stretching was the worse thing of all, its an abomination of all things gaming-wise, the way it would put out of synch any kind of multiplayer racing because of its illogic nature. Geoff, SKIP frames, don't stretch time on your next game if you ever release one. He's the only modern game developper who still worked in assemblor. The only other one I know, in modern gaming, was that guy who made the Roller Coaster Tycoon games. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

ymenard wrote: > He's the only modern game developper who still worked in assemblor. I find that hard to believe, and in any case, it hardly has anything to do with the quality of his product. Assembler is no less efficient as a low-level language than it was 25 years ago.

jason moyer wrote:

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> ymenard wrote: > > >>He's the only modern game developper who still worked in assemblor. > > > I find that hard to believe, and in any case, it hardly has anything to > do with the quality of his product. Assembler is no less efficient as > a low-level language than it was 25 years ago. >

Come on, son, the game didn't even run in real time! A hotlap toy was all it was. I say 'it' because I could see no difference from GP2 through 4. The whole thing was a sham.

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:22:13 -0400, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote: >He's the only modern game developper who still worked in assemblor. The >only other one I know, in modern gaming, was that guy who made the Roller >Coaster Tycoon games. Assembly language is the closest to the machine.

Praxiteles Democritus wrote:

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> On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:22:13 -0400, "ymenard" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >>He's the only modern game developper who still worked in assemblor. The >>only other one I know, in modern gaming, was that guy who made the Roller >>Coaster Tycoon games. > > > Assembly language is the closest to the machine.

Oh well, I suppose that makes everything all right.

Sidney H Bridge wrote: > Praxiteles Democritus wrote: > > Assembly language is the closest to the machine. > > Oh well, I suppose that makes everything all right. I don't agree with 99% of the bullshit you post here, but this is the first post I've seen of yours that I'd rank with Reggie White or Flightlessdickhead.

jason moyer wrote:

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> Sidney H Bridge wrote: > >>Praxiteles Democritus wrote: > > >>>Assembly language is the closest to the machine. >> >>Oh well, I suppose that makes everything all right. > > > I don't agree with 99% of the bullshit you post here, but this is the > first post I've seen of yours that I'd rank with Reggie White or > Flightlessdickhead. >

So, if you don't agree with something, it's bullshit?

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:20:25 GMT, Praxiteles Democritus <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:22:13 -0400, "ymenard" ><[email hidden]> wrote: > > >>He's the only modern game developper who still worked in assemblor. The >>only other one I know, in modern gaming, was that guy who made the Roller >>Coaster Tycoon games. > >Assembly language is the closest to the machine.

True, but I doubt it a game programmer can optimize code better than a compiler. If he can, he should build compilers, he'll earn a lot more... Cheers! Remco