Why I like NASCAR (serious)

Someone asked this question (why is NASCAR popular?) a week or so ago and there was a flood of the usual NASCAR hating posts. NASCAR does not deserve the abuse I've seen heaped on it here. It's down at the level of the folks who say we all like racing because of the crashes. I like NASCAR because: 1. Half the field have cars that, properly set up and driven, could win the race. And sometimes the underdogs have the perfect race and win. 2. The complicated strategy of setting the car up (for long runs?, for short runs?) and then adjusting it in pit stops to match the conditions during the race. 3. The need to race the traffic as well as the track. F1 lovers seem to be NASCAR haters. Of the more popular forms F1 is my least favorite. We now have a whopping six cars that could win the race, up from the usual four (or two). And three of those drivers are second class citizens who know they are suposed to let their teamate finish ahead of them (even if Mika hasn't quite figured that one out this year). I'll still watch a F1 race on occaision, and going to Monza last year was a pretty neat experience, even if it was a lousy race. Some credentials: I like all forms of racing. I've attended many races:: F1: Watkins 1964 , Phoenix about 1990, Monza 2000, CART (Denver about 1991), NASCAR (Richmond 1997), IRL, Busch, World of Outlaws, Trans-Am (outside Montreal circa 1970), vintage, local stuff. I raced SCCA for 10 years. I sim (badly) GPL, NASCAR4, and GP3. I'm a serious motorsports guy. And I like NASCAR. I'm amazed that someone could hate NASCAR with a passion and like racing.

On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 05:59:07 GMT, [email hidden] (bob) wrote: >I'm a serious motorsports guy. And I like NASCAR. I'm amazed that >someone could hate NASCAR with a passion and like racing.i don't hate Nascar. Its pretty alien to me though(living in South Africa). You can't even buy N4 in the shops. I saw N3 for sale all of last year at the local computer shops. Gathering dust. Its more like lack of interest. I've seen some of the highlights on ESPN, but i tend to watch CART instead of Nascar. Can't really say why. The media coverage here is pretty close to zero and only people with satellite TV really get to see it. Formula one and others are broadcast on regulat tv live each sunday and the awareness is much higjher. Don't mean to knock your fave sport, but I know the names more from playing the Nascar games than anything else. Also the sponsors aren't easily identifiable for someone who doesn't see those brands in the local stores. Budweiser & Kelloggs are well known, but many others are a mystery. What does Hooters make, for example? (actually, i saw austin powers, so you don't have to answer!). I think I've read that Nascar doesn not have many non-US drivers. Maybe that's also a reason the media coverage isn't great outside of there, but i'm just guessing. Regards all, istoff "Its easy to get lost in thought if you don't go there often" - Me, 1993

Very nicely written, Bob. I happen to agree with you, but that doesn't change the fact that you laid out your premise nicely. If you raced for real....then give your sim racing more time to come around. Having real-world race experience is actually a bit of a handicap actually, quite opposite of what most people think. However, after you've overcome the "handicap" your real racing experience will take over and give you a distinct advantage over most sim-only drivers. They may be able to handle their cars "driving wise" but they lack "situational awareness" during the race that is not lacking with drivers with real racing experience. There are a few exceptions of course...on both sides of things as usual. I also ran in SCCA for about 10 years, instructed too. Welcome to sim racing! Regards, Tom Pabst

A very nice post, I must say. I can't remember exactly where I read it, but there was a nice editorial about F1 once. It dealt with F1 fans vs. F1 enthusiasts. An F1 fan will, for example, love Ferrari and Michael Schumacher and say that Hakkinen only managed to be a champion because he has the best car. On the other hand, an F1 enthusiast would generally not care so much who wins (everyone has their favourites, though :) ), as long as there is good racing involved, be it for the first place or lower down. A similar principle could apply here. A motorsports enthusiast who can appreciate what goes into the sport will not care so much what series it is, be it F1, NASCAR, or even sidecar racing, as long as there is a serious effort of the teams and drivers involved in order to win. Some forms of racing put more effort into teamwork and making the car, others depend more on the effort into the driver. But as long as a series remains a true sport, it can be enjoyable. Saying that NASCAR has 'better racing', or that 'F1 turns right as well' is really pointless. In each series, the best combination of chassis, teamwork and driver will in the end produce a win. -Gregor bob wrote: > > I'm a serious motorsports guy. And I like NASCAR. I'm amazed that > someone could hate NASCAR with a passion and like racing.

Couldn't have said it better myself Gregor... I second your post! Jan. =--- "Gregor Veble" wrote... > A very nice post, I must say. I can't remember exactly > where I read it, but there was a nice editorial about > F1 once. It dealt with F1 fans vs. F1 enthusiasts. > <snip>

Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote on 13 Jul 2001: <snip> > If you raced for real....then give your sim racing more time to > come around. Having real-world race experience is actually a bit of > a handicap actually, quite opposite of what most people think.<snip> I agree with that. I can't drive for medical reasons, so my only "in- car" experiences have been in sims. That makes some things easier, as I don't have to adapt from a real car. Braking is a case in point - I've *never* right-foot braked. Ever. Left-foot braking has seemed natural to me from the start - because it's the only way I know. -- David. (GPLRank handicap -6.57; Monsters of GPL +271.79) The GPL Scrapyard: http://scrapyard.9ug.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

You were an instructor? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm has me worried since I have raced you online. Dave Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fsx37.179592$%[email hidden]...

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> Very nicely written, Bob. > > I also ran in SCCA for about 10 years, instructed too. Welcome to sim > racing! > > Regards, > > Tom Pabst > >

I truly feel sorry for anyone who cannot identify with HOOTERS! You are deprived my friend! ;) Seriously... it's a restaurant chain known for its Chicken Wings and "Breasts" (IE - Non chicken, of the Female variety <G>) http://www.hooters.com/ http://www.squidly.com/hooters/Default.htm As RAS and the internet in general is truly international, I think most of the people should understand NASCAR is really an "American" race series. Yes, it has some following outside the US, but nothing in comparison to inside. I too love most motorsports and out of the "majors", I like F1 the least (Let me clarify.. I don't consider the IRL to be a major anything unless you are referring to a joke <G>) mainly because I find the actual "racing", or lack there of, boring although I do appreciate the technology, skill, talent, and like Hooters, the "scenery" to be found at the races ;) I grew up watching oval racing, but my real-world experience was in the SCCA with my home track being Watkins. I am not the biggest open wheel fan around as I like watching "cars" in series like NASCAR, Trans-Am, Sports-Cars, Vintage Racing (particularly CAN-AM) and I am a huge fan of Touring Car racing. Perhaps it's an "American" thing.. just like I think Soccer ("football") is about as exciting as watching paint dry. (The riots and violence not withstanding). -- Scott B. Husted PA-Scott ICQ#4395450 <istoff> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 05:59:07 GMT, [email hidden] (bob) wrote: > > > What does Hooters make, for example? (actually, i saw austin powers, > so you don't have to answer!). >

Yea he had to teach them all how to turn "Left & Right" hahahaha "DAVID J ROBINSON" wrote: | You were an instructor? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm has me worried since I haveraced

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| you online. | Dave | | Tom Pabst wrote: | > Very nicely written, Bob. | > | > I also ran in SCCA for about 10 years, instructed too. Welcome to sim | > racing! | > Regards, | > Tom Pabst

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.262 / Virus Database: 132 - Release Date: 6/12/2001

I cant wait until they come out with HUMMERS {think about it..:-)..} "Scott B. Husted" wrote: | I truly feel sorry for anyone who cannot identify with HOOTERS! You are | deprived my friend! ;) | Seriously... it's a restaurant chain known for its Chicken Wings and | "Breasts" (IE - Non chicken, of the Female variety <G>) | http://www.hooters.com/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.262 / Virus Database: 132 - Release Date: 6/12/2001

>"Gregor Veble" <[email hidden]> wrote > A similar principle could apply here. A motorsports enthusiast who can > appreciate what goes into the sport will not care so much what series it > is, be it F1, NASCAR, or even sidecar racing, as long as there is a > serious effort of the teams and drivers involved in order to win. Indeed. I think we saw that last week (over Jacob's NG) Nascar fans : The ones who whined about Dale's win. Nascar enthusiasts : The ones who appreciated (or not) the race. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Monica's? hehe J. Janasov Thom j. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:M5H37.2264$[email hidden]...

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> I cant wait until they come out with HUMMERS {think about it..:-)..} > > "Scott B. Husted" wrote: > | I truly feel sorry for anyone who cannot identify with HOOTERS! You are > | deprived my friend! ;) > | Seriously... it's a restaurant chain known for its Chicken Wings and > | "Breasts" (IE - Non chicken, of the Female variety <G>) > | http://www.hooters.com/ > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.262 / Virus Database: 132 - Release Date: 6/12/2001 > >

Hate to bother you again, but what exactly are the Papyrus benchmark times for GPL? Are they the replay times? Thanks J. Janasov ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:JgH37.44405$[email hidden]...

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> >"Gregor Veble" <[email hidden]> wrote > > A similar principle could apply here. A motorsports enthusiast who can > > appreciate what goes into the sport will not care so much what series it > > is, be it F1, NASCAR, or even sidecar racing, as long as there is a > > serious effort of the teams and drivers involved in order to win. > > Indeed. I think we saw that last week (over Jacob's NG) > > > Nascar fans : The ones who whined about Dale's win. > Nascar enthusiasts : The ones who appreciated (or not) the race. > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.ymenard.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

Yup, exactly. "J. Janasov" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9ins6f$mc7$[email hidden]... > Hate to bother you again, but what exactly are the Papyrus benchmark times > for GPL? Are they the replay times?

well we were at Sears Point. Dave Thom j. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jMG37.2161$[email hidden]...

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> Yea he had to teach them all how to turn "Left & Right" hahahaha > > "DAVID J ROBINSON" wrote: > | You were an instructor? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm has me worried since I have > raced > | you online. > | Dave > | > | Tom Pabst wrote: > | > Very nicely written, Bob. > | > > | > I also ran in SCCA for about 10 years, instructed too. Welcome to sim > | > racing! > | > Regards, > | > Tom Pabst > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.262 / Virus Database: 132 - Release Date: 6/12/2001 > >

On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 05:59:07 GMT, [email hidden] (bob) wrote:

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>Someone asked this question (why is NASCAR popular?) a week or so ago >and there was a flood of the usual NASCAR hating posts. > >NASCAR does not deserve the abuse I've seen heaped on it here. It's >down at the level of the folks who say we all like racing because of >the crashes. > >I like NASCAR because: > >1. Half the field have cars that, properly set up and driven, could >win the race. And sometimes the underdogs have the perfect race and >win.

That's the case in CART. Hint: the best drivers always end up in the best cars and win the races. Believe it or not, the owners have an eye for talent. >2. The complicated strategy of setting the car up (for long runs?, >for short runs?) and then adjusting it in pit stops to match the >conditions during the race. Same in any series. >3. The need to race the traffic as well as the track. And then the yellow flag comes out. Leader built up a 25 second lead that is now gone!!!

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>F1 lovers seem to be NASCAR haters. Of the more popular forms F1 is >my least favorite. We now have a whopping six cars that could win the >race, up from the usual four (or two). And three of those drivers are >second class citizens who know they are suposed to let their teamate >finish ahead of them (even if Mika hasn't quite figured that one out >this year). I'll still watch a F1 race on occaision, and going to >Monza last year was a pretty neat experience, even if it was a lousy >race. > >Some credentials: I like all forms of racing. I've attended many >races:: F1: Watkins 1964 , Phoenix about 1990, Monza 2000, CART >(Denver about 1991), NASCAR (Richmond 1997), IRL, Busch, World of >Outlaws, Trans-Am (outside Montreal circa 1970), vintage, local stuff. >I raced SCCA for 10 years. I sim (badly) GPL, NASCAR4, and GP3. > >I'm a serious motorsports guy. And I like NASCAR. I'm amazed that >someone could hate NASCAR with a passion and like racing.

NASCAR is not racing. It's a show. Racing is about turning left and right. It's about a driver following another driver (for position) for 40 laps and can't get by. Then he finally outbrakes him with an incredible gutsy move and drives into the distance. And that's the only pass for the lead! That's racing. NASCAR is a show. Pure and simple. It's fans judge a race by the number of lead changes. Does the best driver even win? And what about that pathetic points system?

> right. It's about a driver following another driver (for position) > for 40 laps and can't get by. Then he finally outbrakes him with an > incredible gutsy move and drives into the distance. And that's the > only pass for the lead! That's racing. You are kidding right?? Please say it is so... >NASCAR is a show. Pure and simple. It's fans judge a race by the > number of lead changes. Does the best driver even win So if the best driver starts near the back but can not pass due to the great "following for 40 laps" and still ends up in 17th spot, Does the best driver even win??

Britney's? :-) "J. Janasov" wrote:

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| Monica's? hehe | J. Janasov | | Thom j. wrote: | > I cant wait until they come out with HUMMERS {think about it..:-)..} | > | > "Scott B. Husted" wrote: | > | I truly feel sorry for anyone who cannot identify with HOOTERS! You

are | > | deprived my friend! ;) | > | Seriously... it's a restaurant chain known for its Chicken Wings and | > | "Breasts" (IE - Non chicken, of the Female variety <G>) | > | http://www.hooters.com/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.262 / Virus Database: 132 - Release Date: 6/12/2001

Welp, Golly Goober der ya go den!! :-) "DAVID J ROBINSON" wrote:

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| well we were at Sears Point. | | Dave | Thom j. wrote: | > Yea he had to teach them all how to turn "Left & Right" hahahaha | > | > "DAVID J ROBINSON" wrote: | > | You were an instructor? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm has me worried since I have | > raced | > | you online. | > | Dave | > | | > | Tom Pabst wrote: | > | > Very nicely written, Bob. | > | > | > | > I also ran in SCCA for about 10 years, instructed too. Welcome to

sim | > | > racing! | > | > Regards, | > | > Tom Pabst --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.262 / Virus Database: 132 - Release Date: 6/12/2001

In article <[email hidden]>, ra300z <[email hidden]> writes: >NASCAR is not racing. It's a show. Racing is about turning left and >right. It's about a driver following another driver (for position) >for 40 laps and can't get by. Then he finally outbrakes him with an >incredible gutsy move and drives into the distance. And that's the >only pass for the lead! That's racing. I don't remember if you've said it before, but it sounds like you just don't like oval racing, right? Wouldn't matter if it was open-wheel, Nascar, or motorcycle racing. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Sat, 14 Jul 2001 01:03:44 GMT, "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote: >> right. It's about a driver following another driver (for position) >> for 40 laps and can't get by. Then he finally outbrakes him with an >> incredible gutsy move and drives into the distance. And that's the >> only pass for the lead! That's racing. > >You are kidding right?? Please say it is so... That's the purest form of racing. NASCAR is not racing. It's a mix between the WWF and saloon racing.

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> > > >NASCAR is a show. Pure and simple. It's fans judge a race by the >> number of lead changes. Does the best driver even win > >So if the best driver starts near the back but can not pass due to the great >"following for 40 laps" and still ends up in 17th spot, Does the best driver >even win??

That wouldn't happen. My analogy was say Gil De Ferran leading and Michael Andretti in second place.

On 14 Jul 2001 03:02:47 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, ra300z <[email hidden]> >writes: > >>NASCAR is not racing. It's a show. Racing is about turning left and >>right. It's about a driver following another driver (for position) >>for 40 laps and can't get by. Then he finally outbrakes him with an >>incredible gutsy move and drives into the distance. And that's the >>only pass for the lead! That's racing. > >I don't remember if you've said it before, but it sounds like you just don't >like oval racing, right? Wouldn't matter if it was open-wheel, Nascar, or >motorcycle racing.

I like oval racing. Especially in sims (cause they are so easy). I just prefer a race at Road America or Silvastun.

I'll try an answer your question from a slightly different prospective i.e. not F1 vs. NASCAR. I've only watched racing for about 4 months now, actually this years Talladega was the first NASCAR race I ever watched. Having moved to Virginia recently you can't go anywhere without seeing NASCAR paraphernalia. You NASCAR aficionados of years and years may disagree with my observations, but bear in mind my prospective. 1) Obviously the excitement of close races and lead changes. Watching the prerace show for Talladega I was expecting multiple car pile ups based on what was being said. I found the race exciting just seeing how close they were and the fact that they didn't wreck. I know most found the race boring - not I. 2) I haven't seen or heard of any NASCAR racers on drugs esp. while racing. Would a Darrel Strawberry get multiple wrist slaps by NASCAR? I doubt it. Just too dangerous to allow that sort of thing. 3) To my knowledge there hasn't been instances of NASCAR racers hiring people to gun down pregnant girlfriends. Why would I want my kid growing up thinking these types were heroes anyway? 4) For some reason the occasional brawls in NASCAR just don't bother me compared with the never-ending fights of Hockey. If you want a fight watch boxing. 5) Football has been my favorite sport since my preteen years, but I'm losing interest fast. Who do I root for? Players who trade teams constantly? Hell teams seem to change cities more than racers change cars (I know an exaggeration). I suppose I could root for the team mascot. 6) Do I have to mention the lack of purple haired idiots and pierced body parts? I thought not. 7) As a hard core conservative the semi-independence of NASCAR and the racers attracts me. Shucks it's not even politically correct. At an energy conference recently somehow racing got brought up. Some female type bemoaned the wasted land space and energy spent on racing. The discussion deteriorated when I asked how much energy the cosmetics industry used (not that cosmetics could help this particular one much) and wondered how much land area for shoes do we really need. Well I could write more but I think you get my drift. I can't wait to see my first NASCAR race in Richmond this Sept. My brother, who lives in Daytona and doesn't follow NASCAR, actually WALKED to the last race to see DE Jr win. The dirty dog. Regards On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 05:59:07 GMT, [email hidden] (bob) wrote:

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>Someone asked this question (why is NASCAR popular?) a week or so ago >and there was a flood of the usual NASCAR hating posts. > >NASCAR does not deserve the abuse I've seen heaped on it here. It's >down at the level of the folks who say we all like racing because of >the crashes. > >I like NASCAR because: > >1. Half the field have cars that, properly set up and driven, could >win the race. And sometimes the underdogs have the perfect race and >win. > >2. The complicated strategy of setting the car up (for long runs?, >for short runs?) and then adjusting it in pit stops to match the >conditions during the race. > >3. The need to race the traffic as well as the track. > >F1 lovers seem to be NASCAR haters. Of the more popular forms F1 is >my least favorite. We now have a whopping six cars that could win the >race, up from the usual four (or two). And three of those drivers are >second class citizens who know they are suposed to let their teamate >finish ahead of them (even if Mika hasn't quite figured that one out >this year). I'll still watch a F1 race on occaision, and going to >Monza last year was a pretty neat experience, even if it was a lousy >race. > >Some credentials: I like all forms of racing. I've attended many >races:: F1: Watkins 1964 , Phoenix about 1990, Monza 2000, CART >(Denver about 1991), NASCAR (Richmond 1997), IRL, Busch, World of >Outlaws, Trans-Am (outside Montreal circa 1970), vintage, local stuff. >I raced SCCA for 10 years. I sim (badly) GPL, NASCAR4, and GP3. > >I'm a serious motorsports guy. And I like NASCAR. I'm amazed that >someone could hate NASCAR with a passion and like racing.

>What does Hooters make, for example? It's the best restaurant in America!!!!!=) Racer X Veteran Sim Racer #4 Corvette C5-R in the GTIC #24 Monte Carlo in the DORL Victory Lane- http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/1423/

> NASCAR is not racing. It's a mix between the WWF and saloon racing. Not to sound arrogant but it IS racing in the USA and well basically thats all that matters.

>What does Hooters make, for example? (actually, i saw austin powers, >so you don't have to answer!). i guessed some of you didn't read that whole sentence :) I saw a scene in austin powers with Rob Lowe & a bachelor party or something at Hooters. I guessed about the breasts & thighs. On Sat, 14 Jul 2001 02:21:12 GMT, "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Britney's? :-) > >"J. Janasov" wrote: >| Monica's? hehe >| J. Janasov >| >| Thom j. wrote: >| > I cant wait until they come out with HUMMERS {think about it..:-)..} >| > >| > "Scott B. Husted" wrote: >| > | I truly feel sorry for anyone who cannot identify with HOOTERS! You >are >| > | deprived my friend! ;) >| > | Seriously... it's a restaurant chain known for its Chicken Wings and >| > | "Breasts" (IE - Non chicken, of the Female variety <G>) >| > | http://www.hooters.com/ > > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.262 / Virus Database: 132 - Release Date: 6/12/2001 >

Regards all, istoff

TITS | >What does Hooters make, for example? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.262 / Virus Database: 132 - Release Date: 6/12/2001

And dont forget Boot'tay either "istoff" YummmmY!!!!! hahaha "istoff" wrote: | at Hooters. I guessed about the breasts & thighs. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.262 / Virus Database: 132 - Release Date: 6/12/2001

"Gene Baker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I'll try an answer your question from a slightly different prospective > i.e. not F1 vs. NASCAR. I've only watched racing for about 4 months > now, actually this years Talladega was the first NASCAR race I ever > watched. Having moved to Virginia recently you can't go anywhere > without seeing NASCAR paraphernalia. You NASCAR aficionados of years > and years may disagree with my observations, but bear in mind my > prospective. > > 1) Obviously the excitement of close races and lead changes. > Watching the prerace show for Talladega I was expecting multiple car > pile ups based on what was being said. I found the race exciting just > seeing how close they were and the fact that they didn't wreck. I > know most found the race boring - not I. > > 2) I haven't seen or heard of any NASCAR racers on drugs esp. > while racing. Would a Darrel Strawberry get multiple wrist slaps by > NASCAR? I doubt it. Just too dangerous to allow that sort of thing.

Tim Richmond was Nascar's Party Guy. He died from, I beleive, Aids. He was known for women, drugs and drinking while away from the track. WHen he died, almost the whole Nascar community tried to forget he existed because of the Aids paranoia. Except Kyle Petty. Kyle had gone through periods of short and longish hair, but after Tim died, he grew his hair out to it's current length and he hasn't cut it since, that I know of anyway. > > 3) To my knowledge there hasn't been instances of NASCAR racers > hiring people to gun down pregnant girlfriends. Why would I want my > kid growing up thinking these types were heroes anyway? No but the history of Nascar is rooted in gin-runners outracing the police to deliver the goods from backwoods stills. > > 4) For some reason the occasional brawls in NASCAR just don't > bother me compared with the never-ending fights of Hockey. If you > want a fight watch boxing. There is an old joke about boxing and hockey...bascially like this... 'I went to the fights last night." "really? Any good fights?" 'I'll say, one got so rough a hockey match broke out." > > 5) Football has been my favorite sport since my preteen years, > but I'm losing interest fast. Who do I root for? Players who trade > teams constantly? Hell teams seem to change cities more than racers > change cars (I know an exaggeration). I suppose I could root for the > team mascot. Ever wonder why the Longtime Nascar drivers refer to car #'s rather than drivers? In most interviews you'll hear that the 24 car or the 6 car are really stout...not Gordon and Martin. Drivers and teams change but since the Nascar owners keep the car #'s, some continuity can be had. For instance, Ricky Rudd's recent win in the 28 car. Many fans were cheering for Rudd, but I will also bet that many fans remember that the 28 was Davey Allison's car and so they were cheering for him even tho Rudd was the driver. > > 6) Do I have to mention the lack of purple haired idiots and > pierced body parts? I thought not. But sleeveless, hatted, bearded folk abound...and the men are pretty strange too..... :) {just kidding--REALLY!}

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> > 7) As a hard core conservative the semi-independence of NASCAR > and the racers attracts me. Shucks it's not even politically correct. > At an energy conference recently somehow racing got brought up. Some > female type bemoaned the wasted land space and energy spent on racing. > The discussion deteriorated when I asked how much energy the cosmetics > industry used (not that cosmetics could help this particular one much) > and wondered how much land area for shoes do we really need.

You would do well to continue such strong defense of racing, the Energy crisis of the 70's almost killed racing in America. Keep up the good words. dave henrie > > Well I could write more but I think you get my drift. I can't wait to > see my first NASCAR race in Richmond this Sept. My brother, who lives > in Daytona and doesn't follow NASCAR, actually WALKED to the last race > to see DE Jr win. The dirty dog. I think Richmond will be a much different experience for you than the huge Talledega event. On the smaller track you will really see the drivers work for their speed. dave henrie

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> > Regards > > > > > On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 05:59:07 GMT, [email hidden] (bob) wrote: > > >Someone asked this question (why is NASCAR popular?) a week or so ago > >and there was a flood of the usual NASCAR hating posts. > > > >NASCAR does not deserve the abuse I've seen heaped on it here. It's > >down at the level of the folks who say we all like racing because of > >the crashes. > > > >I like NASCAR because: > > > >1. Half the field have cars that, properly set up and driven, could > >win the race. And sometimes the underdogs have the perfect race and > >win. > > > >2. The complicated strategy of setting the car up (for long runs?, > >for short runs?) and then adjusting it in pit stops to match the > >conditions during the race. > > > >3. The need to race the traffic as well as the track. > > > >F1 lovers seem to be NASCAR haters. Of the more popular forms F1 is > >my least favorite. We now have a whopping six cars that could win the > >race, up from the usual four (or two). And three of those drivers are > >second class citizens who know they are suposed to let their teamate > >finish ahead of them (even if Mika hasn't quite figured that one out > >this year). I'll still watch a F1 race on occaision, and going to > >Monza last year was a pretty neat experience, even if it was a lousy > >race. > > > >Some credentials: I like all forms of racing. I've attended many > >races:: F1: Watkins 1964 , Phoenix about 1990, Monza 2000, CART > >(Denver about 1991), NASCAR (Richmond 1997), IRL, Busch, World of > >Outlaws, Trans-Am (outside Montreal circa 1970), vintage, local stuff. > >I raced SCCA for 10 years. I sim (badly) GPL, NASCAR4, and GP3. > > > >I'm a serious motorsports guy. And I like NASCAR. I'm amazed that > >someone could hate NASCAR with a passion and like racing. >

In article <[email hidden]>, ra300z <[email hidden]> writes:

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>On 14 Jul 2001 03:02:47 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > >>In article <[email hidden]>, ra300z <[email hidden]> >>writes: >> >>>NASCAR is not racing. It's a show. Racing is about turning left and >>>right. It's about a driver following another driver (for position) >>>for 40 laps and can't get by. Then he finally outbrakes him with an >>>incredible gutsy move and drives into the distance. And that's the >>>only pass for the lead! That's racing. >> >>I don't remember if you've said it before, but it sounds like you just don't >>like oval racing, right? Wouldn't matter if it was open-wheel, Nascar, or >>motorcycle racing. > >I like oval racing. Especially in sims (cause they are so easy). I >just prefer a race at Road America or Silvastun. >

You actually like oval racing? Strange considering all the things that you DON'T like in NASCAR. Yellow flags Closely bunched cars Multiple lead changes Left turns only No racing in the rain(not sure if *you* said this...) All of these exist in Nascar, IRL, and some CART races. I'm curious how you could possibly like oval racing with all the things you DON'T like about it? Nothing personal, but that sounds like a contradiction... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>"Gene Baker" <[email hidden]> wrote > 4) For some reason the occasional brawls in NASCAR just don't > bother me compared with the never-ending fights of Hockey. If you > want a fight watch boxing. pffftttt! If you want a fight watch hockey. Boxers aren't really fighting ;-) Anyway, I like your analogy of why NASCAR is popular down there, knowing the relative conservatism of Americans. Good points, they all can be applied to most of motorsports. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

On Sat, 14 Jul 2001 11:05:05 -0600, "Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Not to sound arrogant but it IS racing in the USA and well basically thats >all that matters. Is that your best argument?

On 14 Jul 2001 20:07:41 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, ra300z <[email hidden]> >writes: > >>On 14 Jul 2001 03:02:47 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >> >>>In article <[email hidden]>, ra300z <[email hidden]> >>>writes: >>> >>>>NASCAR is not racing. It's a show. Racing is about turning left and >>>>right. It's about a driver following another driver (for position) >>>>for 40 laps and can't get by. Then he finally outbrakes him with an >>>>incredible gutsy move and drives into the distance. And that's the >>>>only pass for the lead! That's racing. >>> >>>I don't remember if you've said it before, but it sounds like you just don't >>>like oval racing, right? Wouldn't matter if it was open-wheel, Nascar, or >>>motorcycle racing. >> >>I like oval racing. Especially in sims (cause they are so easy). I >>just prefer a race at Road America or Silvastun. >> > >You actually like oval racing? Strange considering all the things that you >DON'T like in NASCAR. >Yellow flags >Closely bunched cars >Multiple lead changes >Left turns only >No racing in the rain(not sure if *you* said this...) > >All of these exist in Nascar, IRL, and some CART races. I'm curious how you >could possibly like oval racing with all the things you DON'T like about it? >Nothing personal, but that sounds like a contradiction...

There's a difference between real life (NASCAR) and computer generated reality (sims like N4, NH, etc)

Argument? No need to dispute facts unless your head has been buried in the sand for the past five years. "ra300z" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sat, 14 Jul 2001 11:05:05 -0600, "Wallace" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Not to sound arrogant but it IS racing in the USA and well basicallythats > >all that matters. > > Is that your best argument?

In article <[email hidden]>, ra300z <[email hidden]> writes:

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>>>I like oval racing. Especially in sims (cause they are so easy). I >>>just prefer a race at Road America or Silvastun. >>> >> >>You actually like oval racing? Strange considering all the things that you >>DON'T like in NASCAR. >>Yellow flags >>Closely bunched cars >>Multiple lead changes >>Left turns only >>No racing in the rain(not sure if *you* said this...) >> >>All of these exist in Nascar, IRL, and some CART races. I'm curious how you >>could possibly like oval racing with all the things you DON'T like about it? > >>Nothing personal, but that sounds like a contradiction... > >There's a difference between real life (NASCAR) and computer generated >reality (sims like N4, NH, etc)

??? Ok, I must have misunderstood something. I thought you were talking about liking real life oval racing, not sims. So, you like it in sims, but not in real life? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I'm an old European and I'm watching F1 for allmost 30 years. And I can say there's allmost no racing in F1 in last 25 years. If there was no Micheal Schumacher there would be no racing at all. The concept is simply wrong. You cannot race against car which is whole class faster than yours. And allways is only one manufacter who is willing to invest big money to made that car (Honda, then Renault, then Mercedes and now probably BMW). Nobody wants to invest big money in a second placed car. Regarding strategy. There was a lot of strategy playing part in F1 30 years ago. Wherever there is equality you must play with little things to help you to win. You have strategy in modern F1, but not during race. It is pre season. If you manage to make contract with top team, you're allmost 100% a winner. This is all the strategy you need in modern F1. Senna drove for free in Williams, just to be in Williams. He knew that in any other team his star would quickly pale (unlike Schumachers). I wish Europe has NASCAR. And Cart too. "Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1A947.5568$[email hidden]... > Argument? No need to dispute facts unless your head has been buried inthe

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> sand for the past five years. > > "ra300z" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Sat, 14 Jul 2001 11:05:05 -0600, "Wallace" <[email hidden]> > > wrote: > > > > >Not to sound arrogant but it IS racing in the USA and well basically > thats > > >all that matters. > > > > Is that your best argument? > >

In article <[email hidden]>, Gene Baker <[email hidden]> writes: > 2) I haven't seen or heard of any NASCAR racers on drugs esp. > while racing. Would a Darrel Strawberry get multiple wrist slaps by > NASCAR? I doubt it. Just too dangerous to allow that sort of thing. Does anyone here remember Rob Moroso? He was an up-and-coming star in his first year of Winston Cup, oh, probably 10 years ago. One night he got really drunk, hopped in his (street) car, and got in an accident in which he killed himself, a woman in another car, and a child in that other car. What were the consequences of this? NASCAR named him Rookie of the Year, posthumously. And _AutoWeek_ magazine did an expos� on the DUI records of the Winston Cup drivers; it wasn't pretty. Probably 1/3 or more of the field at that time had multiple DUI convictions in their past. The response from NASCAR? None whatsoever, as I recall. NASCAR does not have the high ground on this issue. Marc

I was a shortlived Rob Moroso fan. He had a good amount of talent and a bright future. My son is 17 and just got his license. I can't preach to him enough about drinking and driving. Back to your original question. I can't provide an answer for what was done about it but I can tell you that the times have changed and the drivers are under more scrutiny than they were 10-15 years ago. While I wouldn't say that it never happens I would say it is probably rare that instances like these occur. -- Michael K. Grandy Non Stop Cable Services East, Inc An Estancia Cable Partners Company "Marc Fraioli" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9ivepv$i52$[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, > Gene Baker <[email hidden]> writes: > > 2) I haven't seen or heard of any NASCAR racers on drugs esp. > > while racing. Would a Darrel Strawberry get multiple wrist slaps by > > NASCAR? I doubt it. Just too dangerous to allow that sort of thing. > > Does anyone here remember Rob Moroso? He was an up-and-coming star in his > first year of Winston Cup, oh, probably 10 years ago. One night he got > really drunk, hopped in his (street) car, and got in an accident in which > he killed himself, a woman in another car, and a child in that other car. > What were the consequences of this? NASCAR named him Rookie of the Year, > posthumously. And _AutoWeek_ magazine did an expos� on the DUI records > of the Winston Cup drivers; it wasn't pretty. Probably 1/3 or more > of the field at that time had multiple DUI convictions in their past. > The response from NASCAR? None whatsoever, as I recall. NASCAR does > not have the high ground on this issue. > > Marc

The reason I like NASCAR more than the other racing leagues is because I like the intensity of the 2 wide and three wide draft racing that you do not see in F1 (even four wide). For me NASCAR is just more intense. I like to watch F1 and CART as well but NASCAR just gives me more tension. :) The one thing that bothers me about F1 and CART is the way fans and reporters of either league blast NASCAR and its fans. NASCAR fans and media do not put down other leagues that way... the entire Earnhardt Junior "fix" issue was perpetuated mostly by CART fans (and some of the media that thinks CART is better). That has given me something of a bad taste about that league. RB On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 05:59:07 GMT, [email hidden] (bob) wrote:

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>Someone asked this question (why is NASCAR popular?) a week or so ago >and there was a flood of the usual NASCAR hating posts. > >NASCAR does not deserve the abuse I've seen heaped on it here. It's >down at the level of the folks who say we all like racing because of >the crashes. > >I like NASCAR because: > >1. Half the field have cars that, properly set up and driven, could >win the race. And sometimes the underdogs have the perfect race and >win. > >2. The complicated strategy of setting the car up (for long runs?, >for short runs?) and then adjusting it in pit stops to match the >conditions during the race. > >3. The need to race the traffic as well as the track. > >F1 lovers seem to be NASCAR haters. Of the more popular forms F1 is >my least favorite. We now have a whopping six cars that could win the >race, up from the usual four (or two). And three of those drivers are >second class citizens who know they are suposed to let their teamate >finish ahead of them (even if Mika hasn't quite figured that one out >this year). I'll still watch a F1 race on occaision, and going to >Monza last year was a pretty neat experience, even if it was a lousy >race. > >Some credentials: I like all forms of racing. I've attended many >races:: F1: Watkins 1964 , Phoenix about 1990, Monza 2000, CART >(Denver about 1991), NASCAR (Richmond 1997), IRL, Busch, World of >Outlaws, Trans-Am (outside Montreal circa 1970), vintage, local stuff. >I raced SCCA for 10 years. I sim (badly) GPL, NASCAR4, and GP3. > >I'm a serious motorsports guy. And I like NASCAR. I'm amazed that >someone could hate NASCAR with a passion and like racing.

In article <[email hidden]>, Razorback <[email hidden]> writes: >The one thing that bothers me about F1 and CART is the way fans and >reporters of either league blast NASCAR and its fans. It goes both ways. Some NASCAR fans bash CART and F1(and their fans). Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I still say if you put a motor on it I'll watch it and 99.9% of the time I get enjoyment out of it too! Bashing a motorsport is not my "cup of tea."... They all take a degree of skill....Fact.. :-) Cheers Thom_j. "EldredP" wrote: | It goes both ways. Some NASCAR fans bash CART and F1(and their fans). | | Eldred Razorback writes: | >The one thing that bothers me about F1 and CART is the way fans and | >reporters of either league blast NASCAR and its fans. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.262 / Virus Database: 132 - Release Date: 6/12/2001

In article <4f057.13016$[email hidden]>, "Thom j." <[email hidden]> writes: >I still say if you put a motor on it I'll watch it and 99.9% of the >time I get enjoyment out of it too! Bashing a motorsport is not >my "cup of tea."... They all take a degree of skill....Fact.. :-) >Cheers Thom_j. I'm the same way. F1, CART, IRL, NASCAR, motorcycle(although I think *they're* crazy...<g>) I watch it all. I wish I could afford to DO it... :( Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Per chance Eldred were you pointing your finger at anyone in particular when you stated motorcycle racers are crazy? :-) Well Dammit Yes We Are!! :o)~ "EldredP" wrote: | | I'm the same way. F1, CART, IRL, NASCAR, motorcycle(although I think*they're* | crazy...<g>) I watch it all. I wish I could afford to DO it... :( | | Eldred | -- "Thom j." profoundly writes: | | >I still say if you put a motor on it I'll watch it and 99.9% of the | >time I get enjoyment out of it too! Bashing a motorsport is not | >my "cup of tea."... They all take a degree of skill....Fact.. :-) | >Cheers Thom_j. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.264 / Virus Database: 136 - Release Date: 7/2/2001