Re: Spoiler - Hockenheim GP

Why should it have been thrown? They would have had about 5 minutes before the field would come round again behind the pace car. That would leave plently of time to sweep the track. It was only red flagged to let Schumacher restart again. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Of course, there are some(including myself) who are upset that Mika wasn't > given the advantage of a red flag to get in the backup car... :( > Granted, I agree the flag should have been thrown today. But, it should also > have been thrown earlier this season... > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Jacques was interviewed and said he was "very surprised" as they has already gone through the debris once and he said they shouldnt have had to do the "most dangerous" part of the race again. So, are you saying Villeneuve talks shit as well? I bet you also think he never took out Damon to win the championship and never tried to wreck Jacques on purpose. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k14vb$21fbe$[email hidden]... > > Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3b63ec01$[email hidden]... > > Why should it have been thrown? They would have had about 5 minutes before > > the field would come round again behind the pace car. That would leave > > plently of time to sweep the track. It was only red flagged to let > > Schumacher restart again. > > > > -- > Don't talk shit. They had already completed another lap and every car was > trying desperately to avoid the debris. > What's your next conspiracy theory ? Montoya was deliberately held up on his > own pit stop so that Ralf could get past and win ? Give it a rest. > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

So you are saying you know more about race matters than a double World champion? Steve Levett "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k18ln$2768k$[email hidden]... > > Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Jacques was interviewed and said he was "very surprised" as they has > already > > gone through the debris once and he said they shouldnt have had to dothe

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > "most dangerous" part of the race again. So, are you saying Villeneuve > talks > > shit as well? I bet you also think he never took out Damon to win the > > championship and never tried to wreck Jacques on purpose. > > > Villeneuve does tend to talk a lot of shit too, yes. > Damon who ? Oh , I remember. The little brat who wouldn't have got near a > bloody Go-Kart if his Dad hadn't been called Graham. > >

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No, it was DCs fault at Silverstone. Schumacher is a fast driver but he is a cheat who gets preferential treatment from Bernie and F1. I am not a fan of any driver so I'm not blinded by the love of MS that some people here seem to be. I went through the MS thing a few weeks ago with someone so I'm not gonna do it again. JV said on ITV that he wanted the race to go on and was surprised it was stopped and I'm gonna trust his judgement ahead on any guys in here. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "Nick G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > um, didn't you see the race? there was debris all over the track - ultra > sharp carbon fibre. if the marshalls had tried to clear it they would have > had to be appearing on track for at least the first five laps, sweeping it > all off. That is too dangerous. Charlie Whiting had a choice, did he think > the race could continue. He said yes, but as he saw how much the cars were > trying to avoid debris, he decided it wasn't worth the risk and stopped the > race. This gives the teams time to inspect the tyres for the 20min time > between restarts, and check over the cars. > > Any why do you hate Michael? He is without doubt the most naturally gifted > grand prix driver out there. Damon Hill didn't have it, Mika Hakkinen > DEFINATELY doesn't have it, but he does. Montoya does. Ralf doesn't. > Coulthard doesn't. Barrichello doesn't. Anybody who saw him in testing at > Maranello back in '98 will justify that. Lap after lap going as sideways as > possible. The shots are amazing. > > Don't be such a fool. I bet you think the first corner incident at > Silverstone was Trulli's fault don't you? Despite the video evidence - > especially from Coulthards roll bar camera, which shows Trulli was actually > in front (by a few inches) of DC going into Copse, but as DC moved over, he > braked, and that is why he was behind DC AT THE POINT OF IMPACT. > > Please don't try to look knowledgable, when all you are trying to do is take > the piss out of the King of F1. > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Didnt he win the CART championship as well? -- Steve Levett ------------------ "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k19ob$itn$[email hidden]... > Double World Champion??? Jacques was champion only in 1997 or did I miss > something? > > > -- > Have several nice days !!! > > > Michael Heymanns > Team-Manager SRG > > IWSC Champion 2000 > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 1999 > TPTCC Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > www.srg-group.de > www.teamsrg.de > www.tptcc.de > > 1&1 Profiseller > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:3b640b61$[email hidden]... > > > > So you are saying you know more about race matters than a double World > > champion? > > > > Steve Levett > > > > "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:9k18ln$2768k$[email hidden]... > > > > > > Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Jacques was interviewed and said he was "very surprised" as they has > > > already > > > > gone through the debris once and he said they shouldnt have had to do > > the > > > > "most dangerous" part of the race again. So, are you saying Villeneuve > > > talks > > > > shit as well? I bet you also think he never took out Damon to win the > > > > championship and never tried to wreck Jacques on purpose. > > > > > > > Villeneuve does tend to talk a lot of shit too, yes. > > > Damon who ? Oh , I remember. The little brat who wouldn't have got near > a > > > bloody Go-Kart if his Dad hadn't been called Graham. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Villenueve, F1 and CART? -- Steve Levett ------------------ "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k1a7r$1ns$[email hidden]... > Who's the double world champion ? > > -- > > Ian P > <email invalid due to spammers> > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3b640b61$[email hidden]... > > > > So you are saying you know more about race matters than a double World > > champion? > > > > Steve Levett > > > > "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:9k18ln$2768k$[email hidden]... > > > > > > Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Jacques was interviewed and said he was "very surprised" as they has > > > already > > > > gone through the debris once and he said they shouldnt have had to do > > the > > > > "most dangerous" part of the race again. So, are you saying Villeneuve > > > talks > > > > shit as well? I bet you also think he never took out Damon to win the > > > > championship and never tried to wreck Jacques on purpose. > > > > > > > Villeneuve does tend to talk a lot of shit too, yes. > > > Damon who ? Oh , I remember. The little brat who wouldn't have got near > a > > > bloody Go-Kart if his Dad hadn't been called Graham. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

But dont F1 rules state that you cant have a restart after the cars have completed the 1st lap which is what they did? 4 or 5 laps under the pace car at 5 minutes per lap would have given the marshalls plenty of time to clear up, they use trucks on the course behind the pace car in CART and NASCAR so why not F1? I'm sure a tyre would have failed if it was going to do so in the 5 or so laps behind the pace car which would not result in a dangerous accident. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k1aeg$16pns$[email hidden]... > Hi Steve, > > if names mean anything, Gerhard Berger, Niki Lauda and Christian Danner all > said that it was the right decision to stop the race. Norbert Haug said > something to the effect that it was an acceptable decision. > > The reasoning was always that this much debris on a hi-speed track like > Hockenheim could have lead to devastating accidents. > > The track BTW wasn't cleaned manually, they sent out two road-cleaner trucks > to get it cleaned up in time for the restart. > > Achim > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Maybe he was hoping for another restart, hehe -- Steve Levett ------------------ "istoff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sat, 28 Jul 2001 17:15:48 +0100, "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >But dont F1 rules state that you cant have a restart after the cars have > >completed the 1st lap which is what they did? 4 or 5 laps under the pace car > >at 5 minutes per lap would have given the marshalls plenty of time to clear > >up, they use trucks on the course behind the pace car in CART and NASCAR so > >why not F1? I'm sure a tyre would have failed if it was going to do so in > >the 5 or so laps behind the pace car which would not result in a dangerous > >accident. > > wouldn't that be unfair on the driver who unwittingly drove over a > piece of carbon fibre? he would have to pit and it wasn't his fault. > > this argument is going nowhere. the FIA seemed to act in the greater > good for a change. The fact that it worked in schumi's favour this > time was probably co-incidental. no-one could have predicted the > possible tire failures and i believe that the race stewards acted > cautiously and responsibly. if i were a schumey basher i would > rather be commenting how schumey didn't make a big enough effort to > get off the track. hehehe. > > i think a thread related to ralfs comment about montoya racing off at > the start would be more interesting than this, though... > > just my 0.02c. > > enjoy the cart later. caught the end of the qualifying. tough luck > for helio. > > Regards all, > istoff -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

I agree with JV who is one of the real racers unlike Coultard, Brundle etc. (never heard of Surer) It was safer to use the pace car than to redo the most dangerous part of the race. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QTW87.5750$[email hidden]... > Yep. looks like Stevie Levett is wrong this time. > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k1adv$nt5$[email hidden]... > > Martin Brundle, another ex F1 driver and Dacvid Coulthard's (Schumacher's > > main chamionship contender) manager also said the red flag was the right > > decision. > > > > -- > > > > Ian P > > <email invalid due to spammers> > > > > > > "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:9k19s8$iui$[email hidden]... > > > Just remember that you have a different view on the track from inside > the > > > cockpit. Marc Surer (former F1-Driver) has said on tv that the red flag > > was > > > the right decision. Surer is from Suisse and surely not known as a big > > > supporter of Schumacher. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Have several nice days !!! > > > > > > > > > Michael Heymanns > > > Team-Manager SRG > > > > > > IWSC Champion 2000 > > > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > > > TPTCC Champion 1999 > > > TPTCC Champion 2000 > > > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > > > > > www.srg-group.de > > > www.teamsrg.de > > > www.tptcc.de > > > > > > 1&1 Profiseller > > > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > > news:3b640cf1$[email hidden]... > > > > No, it was DCs fault at Silverstone. Schumacher is a fast driver but > he > > is > > > a > > > > cheat who gets preferential treatment from Bernie and F1. I am not a > fan > > > of > > > > any driver so I'm not blinded by the love of MS that some people here > > seem > > > > to be. I went through the MS thing a few weeks ago with someone so I'm > > not > > > > gonna do it again. > > > > > > > > JV said on ITV that he wanted the race to go on and was surprised it > was > > > > stopped and I'm gonna trust his judgement ahead on any guys in here. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Yeah, but he's still a double world champion. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k1ebq$khr$[email hidden]... > Didn't we speak about Formula 1??? > > > > -- > Have several nice days !!! > > > Michael Heymanns > Team-Manager SRG > > IWSC Champion 2000 > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 1999 > TPTCC Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > www.srg-group.de > www.teamsrg.de > www.tptcc.de > > 1&1 Profiseller > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:[email hidden]... > > Didnt he win the CART championship as well? > > > > -- > > > > Steve Levett > > > > ------------------ > > "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:9k19ob$itn$[email hidden]... > > > Double World Champion??? Jacques was champion only in 1997 or did I > miss > > > something? > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Have several nice days !!! > > > > > > > > > Michael Heymanns > > > Team-Manager SRG > > > > > > IWSC Champion 2000 > > > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > > > TPTCC Champion 1999 > > > TPTCC Champion 2000 > > > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > > > > > www.srg-group.de > > > www.teamsrg.de > > > www.tptcc.de > > > > > > 1&1 Profiseller > > > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > > news:3b640b61$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > So you are saying you know more about race matters than a double World > > > > champion? > > > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > > > > "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:9k18ln$2768k$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > Jacques was interviewed and said he was "very surprised" as they > has > > > > > already > > > > > > gone through the debris once and he said they shouldnt have had to > > do > > > > the > > > > > > "most dangerous" part of the race again. So, are you saying > > Villeneuve > > > > > talks > > > > > > shit as well? I bet you also think he never took out Damon to win > > the > > > > > > championship and never tried to wreck Jacques on purpose. > > > > > > > > > > > Villeneuve does tend to talk a lot of shit too, yes. > > > > > Damon who ? Oh , I remember. The little brat who wouldn't have got > > near > > > a > > > > > bloody Go-Kart if his Dad hadn't been called Graham. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

I agree with that, only the NHL in US sports dont consider the winners world champions. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:asX87.1649$[email hidden]... > > > > Par with US World Series winners. > > US-World series...how vain to call a national championship the WORLD series. > > Even if the US teams are the best at baseball, american football or > basketball, how can they call themselves WORLD champion when it's only a > north-american championship... > > The UEFA champion's league is not the WORLD champion's league of football, > and yet andy 1st league European team can kick ass of the best US football > team... > > See what I mean, it's NOBODY'S fault, not dave's on top af all, but > sometimes americans are SOOO proud that they forget they are not the only > land on earth. > > Let the flaming begin... > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

I think races should only be restarted if there is a need for an ambulance or the track is completely blocked like the Spa race a few years ago. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:nLX87.1790$e%[email hidden]... > Funny how all this become when you think about how NASCAR, CART, IRL, > Indy-lights and just about any other racing series in the USA managed to > clean the track with 'blowers' or manual labour without stopping the race. > Even on tracks thats no more than 1/5th the length of Hockenheim :-) > > -- > ed_ > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

I was quoting another person on the "real racers" thing. There is no way on earth you can deny that the start is not the most dangerous part of a F1 race. That's just comical. That's why nearly every other major series does use a pacecar to start the drivers. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k1ioc$ln6$[email hidden]... > Coulthard and Brundle aren't real racers? Have you even driven a F1-Car on > your own that you can make this statement? > > Marc Surer > born on Sep, 18th 1951 in Aresdorf, Suisse > > 1979 European F2 Champion > > Between 1979 and 1986 81 starts in Formula 1. Has also won the 24h of Spa in > 1985 and at Monza in a WSC. > > If the start is the most dangerous part of all, why don't we use a pacecar > for every start??? > > > -- > Have several nice days !!! > > > Michael Heymanns > Team-Manager SRG > > IWSC Champion 2000 > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 1999 > TPTCC Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > www.srg-group.de > www.teamsrg.de > www.tptcc.de > > 1&1 Profiseller > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:3b6424de$[email hidden]... > > I agree with JV who is one of the real racers unlike Coultard, Brundle > etc. > > (never heard of Surer) It was safer to use the pace car than to redo the > > most dangerous part of the race. > > > > -- > > > > Steve Levett > > > > ------------------ > > "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:QTW87.5750$[email hidden]... > > > Yep. looks like Stevie Levett is wrong this time. > > > > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:9k1adv$nt5$[email hidden]... > > > > Martin Brundle, another ex F1 driver and Dacvid Coulthard's > > (Schumacher's > > > > main chamionship contender) manager also said the red flag was the > right > > > > decision. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Ian P > > > > <email invalid due to spammers> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:9k19s8$iui$[email hidden]... > > > > > Just remember that you have a different view on the track from > inside > > > the > > > > > cockpit. Marc Surer (former F1-Driver) has said on tv that the red > > flag > > > > was > > > > > the right decision. Surer is from Suisse and surely not known as a > big > > > > > supporter of Schumacher. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Have several nice days !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael Heymanns > > > > > Team-Manager SRG > > > > > > > > > > IWSC Champion 2000 > > > > > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > > > > > TPTCC Champion 1999 > > > > > TPTCC Champion 2000 > > > > > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > > > > > > > > > www.srg-group.de > > > > > www.teamsrg.de > > > > > www.tptcc.de > > > > > > > > > > 1&1 Profiseller > > > > > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > > > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > > > > news:3b640cf1$[email hidden]... > > > > > > No, it was DCs fault at Silverstone. Schumacher is a fast driver > but > > > he > > > > is > > > > > a > > > > > > cheat who gets preferential treatment from Bernie and F1. I am not > a > > > fan > > > > > of > > > > > > any driver so I'm not blinded by the love of MS that some people > > here > > > > seem > > > > > > to be. I went through the MS thing a few weeks ago with someone so > > I'm > > > > not > > > > > > gonna do it again. > > > > > > > > > > > > JV said on ITV that he wanted the race to go on and was surprised > it > > > was > > > > > > stopped and I'm gonna trust his judgement ahead on any guys in > here. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

"Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k1k0i$m45$[email hidden]... > I guess what you think is absolutly unimportant, because the race stewards > whoi have decided this are responsible for the race, the drivers and the > spectators. > What would you have written when the race continued after some laps behind > the pacecar and than some cars crashed out because of the tires? Do youknow > how it feels to loose a tire at full speed at Hockenheim? Do you want tobe > in that car? > Think twice about it and than tell us what you would have decided insteadof > the stewards. But what if the same thing happened on the restart and a couple of tyres went into the crowd? They would have found any tyre problems in the 10-15 minutes behind the pace car. I still think its more dangerous to do another restart than carry on behind the pace car, CART, NASCAR, and the IRL seem to agree with me. All of these leagues raceon much more dangerous tracks than Hockenheim. -- Steve Levett ------------------ -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

And here's the JV quote, and I guess what he thinks is un important too? Q: What did you see of the incident at the first start? JV: I didn't see what happened, but I was surprised when there was a red flag, because we already went through the debris once. By then the track was clean so the most dangerous moment of the race is actually the start so I was really really surprised. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k1k0i$m45$[email hidden]... > I guess what you think is absolutly unimportant, because the race stewards > whoi have decided this are responsible for the race, the drivers and the > spectators. > What would you have written when the race continued after some laps behind > the pacecar and than some cars crashed out because of the tires? Do you know > how it feels to loose a tire at full speed at Hockenheim? Do you want to be > in that car? > Think twice about it and than tell us what you would have decided instead of > the stewards. > > BTW, you don't win three championships in F1 (soon to be four), win 50 races > and achieve over 40 pole-positions only by cheating. > > -- > Have several nice days !!! > > > Michael Heymanns > Team-Manager SRG > > IWSC Champion 2000 > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 1999 > TPTCC Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > www.srg-group.de > www.teamsrg.de > www.tptcc.de > > 1&1 Profiseller > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:[email hidden]... > > I think races should only be restarted if there is a need for an ambulance > > or the track is completely blocked like the Spa race a few years ago. > > > > -- > > > > Steve Levett > > > > ------------------ > > "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:nLX87.1790$e%[email hidden]... > > > Funny how all this become when you think about how NASCAR, CART, IRL, > > > Indy-lights and just about any other racing series in the USA managed to > > > clean the track with 'blowers' or manual labour without stopping the > race. > > > Even on tracks thats no more than 1/5th the length of Hockenheim :-) > > > > > > -- > > > ed_ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

But if the carbon fibre is razor sharp as the drivers have suggested I believe a punture would be caused immediately. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "jalo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:nU097.301155$[email hidden]... > > I agree with JV who is one of the real racers unlike Coultard, Brundle > etc. > > (never heard of Surer) It was safer to use the pace car than to redo the > > most dangerous part of the race. > > I think you are missing the "main" reason it was stopped. If they had > continued, there might have been a few tires blown out from all the carbon > fiber shreads they ran over. It wasn't worth the risk. In my opinion it was > a good call. A simular thing happened at last years German race, involving > M. Schumacher, they didn't red flag the race then. It was far more costly in > terms of the championship last year (to M. Schumacher), than this years > race, so the whole idea that it was just for Micheal doesn't make much sense > to me. > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

David Coultard has said he thinks the race was only stopped because Schumacher was in front of his home crowd, so there's 2 drivers that agree with me as well as the officials of CART, IRL and NASCAR who would of all put the pace car out, even on much more dangerous tracks than Hockenheim. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k1r6a$27ulj$[email hidden]... > Hi Gerry, > > > The difference between just losING > > and being a losER is knowing when you've lost :). > > Well said Gerry :-) > > Achim > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Of course, there are some(including myself) who are upset that Mika wasn't given the advantage of a red flag to get in the backup car... :( Granted, I agree the flag should have been thrown today. But, it should also have been thrown earlier this season... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3b63ec01$[email hidden]... > Why should it have been thrown? They would have had about 5 minutes before > the field would come round again behind the pace car. That would leave > plently of time to sweep the track. It was only red flagged to let > Schumacher restart again. > > --Don't talk shit. They had already completed another lap and every car was trying desperately to avoid the debris. What's your next conspiracy theory ? Montoya was deliberately held up on his own pit stop so that Ralf could get past and win ? Give it a rest.

Talladega, Michigan, Indy, Daytona, California, Charlotte. Do you want me to go on? Nearly all ovals are more dangerous than Hockenheim because a mistake means hitting a wall at 150-230 mph whereas F1 usually has lots of run off areas. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "Stuart Becktell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Ifd97.156013$[email hidden]... > Two people out of a grid of how many? CART would not have had this problem, > there cars are designed so they don't have as many CF parts flying around. > IRL is a joke, did you see the indy 500? It took them like 7 accidents to > realize that you shouldn't go below the white line in turn 4. They also ask > there drivers to slow down if they are leading by too much. NASCAR is also a > joke, they red flag the events when they are near the end just for the > "racing," or throw a yellow flag at the end because they throw a cup onto > the track. What NASCAR or IRL tracks are as dangerous as Hockinheim? CART > may have some that are close, but I can't think of htem. > -Stuart Becktell > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > David Coultard has said he thinks the race was only stopped because > > Schumacher was in front of his home crowd, so there's 2 drivers that agree > > with me as well as the officials of CART, IRL and NASCAR who would of all > > put the pace car out, even on much more dangerous tracks than Hockenheim. > > > > -- > > > > Steve Levett > > > > ------------------ > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:9k1r6a$27ulj$[email hidden]... > > > Hi Gerry, > > > > > > > The difference between just losING > > > > and being a losER is knowing when you've lost :). > > > > > > Well said Gerry :-) > > > > > > Achim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

I agree with you here, it was too dangerous to move off his line. He had to hild his line and hope others got a good view of him going slowly. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k3h7c$f0$[email hidden]... > Ok enough is enough: Do you really think that Schumacher would risk his own > life and the life of other drivers to get a race stopped? If you really > think this than we don't have to discuss anymore, because this is just > ridiculous and stupid. > > If you have a look at the pictures you'll see that Michael was already in > the middle of the street at the start and the cars were flying on both sides > around him. Lucaiano Burti wasn't able to see Michael, because of a car in > front of him and that's the reason why he hit Michael. After Michael stepped > out of the car the first thing he has done was to ask Burti if everything > was alright with him. The next thing was that he walked back to the pits, > slowly, because he thought the safety car would come out and his race was > over and out. As he noticed that the race was stopped he started to run back > to his crew to get in the T-Car. > > It would have been much more dangerous if Michael would have tried to go to > the outside or inside. BTW, why are drivers trying to take their car back to > the pits even when the engine has blown up and oil is running on the track? > In qualify was someone on the track (Jarno Trulli), trying to drive the car > back to the pits and he has chosen the best line to do it. Rubens > Barrichello wasn't very happy about this and he has shown the driver about > his feelings. > > It seems whenever Michael does something, it's wrong - no matter what he > does. Why do you people have such a problem with him? Ayrton Senna wasn't an > angel too, but he is known as the best driver in the world. He has done some > stupid things in his career too, but it seems in Michael's case everything > is stupid. > He IS the best driver in the moment and if you have a problem to deal with > it I can't help you. You don't have to like him, but is it too much to ask > for a little respect? Well, it seems it is. > Have you ever talked with Michael Schumacher? Have you ever seen him in > private? All I can say that he is a great driver and that I don't know > enough of the person Michael Schumacher to make my own judgement about him. > Why is it so difficult to respect one of the most succesful drivers in the > history of F1. It seems there are the same problems with Jeff Gordon in > NASCAR. Are they just too succesful? > > > -- > Have several nice days !!! > > > Michael Heymanns > Team-Manager SRG > > IWSC Champion 2000 > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 1999 > TPTCC Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > www.srg-group.de > www.teamsrg.de > www.tptcc.de > > 1&1 Profiseller > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > "Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:[email hidden]... > > Agree that they needed to red flag the race, way too much debris on > > the track. But did you see how MS turned his car onto the middle of > > the track? He was headed for the gravel, then turned hard right to end > > up in the middle of the track. Obviously an attempt to get the race > > red-flagged which didn't work, because they moved his car fairly > > quickly. He was lucky that enough debris was spread to bring out the > > red flags. > > > > On another point, why didn't he drive right off the track when he > > stopped the second time? Very strange thing to do when there's so much > > grassed area available. > > > > Rafe Mc > > > > > > On 29 Jul 2001 12:23:30 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > > > > >Of course, there are some(including myself) who are upset that Mika > wasn't > > >given the advantage of a red flag to get in the backup car... :( > > >Granted, I agree the flag should have been thrown today. But, it should > also > > >have been thrown earlier this season... > > > > > >Eldred > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

redTed wrote > What's your next conspiracy theory ? Montoya was deliberately held up onhis > own pit stop so that Ralf could get past and win ? Give it a rest. You noticed that too ??? <vbg> -- ed_

um, didn't you see the race? there was debris all over the track - ultra sharp carbon fibre. if the marshalls had tried to clear it they would have had to be appearing on track for at least the first five laps, sweeping it all off. That is too dangerous. Charlie Whiting had a choice, did he think the race could continue. He said yes, but as he saw how much the cars were trying to avoid debris, he decided it wasn't worth the risk and stopped the race. This gives the teams time to inspect the tyres for the 20min time between restarts, and check over the cars. Any why do you hate Michael? He is without doubt the most naturally gifted grand prix driver out there. Damon Hill didn't have it, Mika Hakkinen DEFINATELY doesn't have it, but he does. Montoya does. Ralf doesn't. Coulthard doesn't. Barrichello doesn't. Anybody who saw him in testing at Maranello back in '98 will justify that. Lap after lap going as sideways as possible. The shots are amazing. Don't be such a fool. I bet you think the first corner incident at Silverstone was Trulli's fault don't you? Despite the video evidence - especially from Coulthards roll bar camera, which shows Trulli was actually in front (by a few inches) of DC going into Copse, but as DC moved over, he braked, and that is why he was behind DC AT THE POINT OF IMPACT. Please don't try to look knowledgable, when all you are trying to do is take the piss out of the King of F1.

Oh yes and after Michael rolled out with his Ferrari why haven't they disqualified the rest of the field to let Michael win? I'm not a fan of Schumi, but I can't hear it anymore... those theories and discussions about Schumacher. He is a great race driver - that's a fact. You don't have to like him and you don't have to support him, but you can't change that fact. I kept my fingers crossed for Montoya, but unfortunatly he has to wait for his first win. BTW, the man from Michelin has said after the accident that ALL teams should change their tires, because otherwise you may have problems with the stuff they had picked up by driving through the debris. I think it's not a funny thing to loose one of you tires at 350km/h, isn't it? So I personally think that the decision was correct to clean the track, maybe it would have been even better to stop the field BEFORE they came to that part of the track. Remember last year? Michael has said that he had expected the red flag after his crash with Fisico, but only the safety car came out and Schumacher was out of the race. Why haven't they done the same last year? -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email hidden]... > Jacques was interviewed and said he was "very surprised" as they has already > gone through the debris once and he said they shouldnt have had to do the > "most dangerous" part of the race again. So, are you saying Villeneuve talks > shit as well? I bet you also think he never took out Damon to win the > championship and never tried to wreck Jacques on purpose. > > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k14vb$21fbe$[email hidden]... > > > > Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:3b63ec01$[email hidden]... > > > Why should it have been thrown? They would have had about 5 minutes > before > > > the field would come round again behind the pace car. That would leave > > > plently of time to sweep the track. It was only red flagged to let > > > Schumacher restart again. > > > > > > -- > > Don't talk shit. They had already completed another lap and every car was > > trying desperately to avoid the debris. > > What's your next conspiracy theory ? Montoya was deliberately held up on > his > > own pit stop so that Ralf could get past and win ? Give it a rest. > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Jacques was interviewed and said he was "very surprised" as they hasalready > gone through the debris once and he said they shouldnt have had to do the > "most dangerous" part of the race again. So, are you saying Villeneuvetalks > shit as well? I bet you also think he never took out Damon to win the > championship and never tried to wreck Jacques on purpose. >Villeneuve does tend to talk a lot of shit too, yes. Damon who ? Oh , I remember. The little brat who wouldn't have got near a bloody Go-Kart if his Dad hadn't been called Graham.

Double World Champion??? Jacques was champion only in 1997 or did I miss something? -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3b640b61$[email hidden]... > > So you are saying you know more about race matters than a double World > champion? > > Steve Levett > > "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k18ln$2768k$[email hidden]... > > > > Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Jacques was interviewed and said he was "very surprised" as they has > > already > > > gone through the debris once and he said they shouldnt have had to do > the > > > "most dangerous" part of the race again. So, are you saying Villeneuve > > talks > > > shit as well? I bet you also think he never took out Damon to win the > > > championship and never tried to wreck Jacques on purpose. > > > > > Villeneuve does tend to talk a lot of shit too, yes. > > Damon who ? Oh , I remember. The little brat who wouldn't have got near a > > bloody Go-Kart if his Dad hadn't been called Graham. > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Just remember that you have a different view on the track from inside the cockpit. Marc Surer (former F1-Driver) has said on tv that the red flag was the right decision. Surer is from Suisse and surely not known as a big supporter of Schumacher. -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3b640cf1$[email hidden]... > No, it was DCs fault at Silverstone. Schumacher is a fast driver but he is a > cheat who gets preferential treatment from Bernie and F1. I am not a fan of > any driver so I'm not blinded by the love of MS that some people here seem > to be. I went through the MS thing a few weeks ago with someone so I'm not > gonna do it again. > > JV said on ITV that he wanted the race to go on and was surprised it was > stopped and I'm gonna trust his judgement ahead on any guys in here. > > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "Nick G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > um, didn't you see the race? there was debris all over the track - ultra > > sharp carbon fibre. if the marshalls had tried to clear it they would have > > had to be appearing on track for at least the first five laps, sweeping it > > all off. That is too dangerous. Charlie Whiting had a choice, did he think > > the race could continue. He said yes, but as he saw how much the cars were > > trying to avoid debris, he decided it wasn't worth the risk and stopped > the > > race. This gives the teams time to inspect the tyres for the 20min time > > between restarts, and check over the cars. > > > > Any why do you hate Michael? He is without doubt the most naturally gifted > > grand prix driver out there. Damon Hill didn't have it, Mika Hakkinen > > DEFINATELY doesn't have it, but he does. Montoya does. Ralf doesn't. > > Coulthard doesn't. Barrichello doesn't. Anybody who saw him in testing at > > Maranello back in '98 will justify that. Lap after lap going as sideways > as > > possible. The shots are amazing. > > > > Don't be such a fool. I bet you think the first corner incident at > > Silverstone was Trulli's fault don't you? Despite the video evidence - > > especially from Coulthards roll bar camera, which shows Trulli was > actually > > in front (by a few inches) of DC going into Copse, but as DC moved over, > he > > braked, and that is why he was behind DC AT THE POINT OF IMPACT. > > > > Please don't try to look knowledgable, when all you are trying to do is > take > > the piss out of the King of F1. > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Who's the double world champion ? -- Ian P <email invalid due to spammers> "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3b640b61$[email hidden]... > > So you are saying you know more about race matters than a double World > champion? > > Steve Levett > > "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k18ln$2768k$[email hidden]... > > > > Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Jacques was interviewed and said he was "very surprised" as they has > > already > > > gone through the debris once and he said they shouldnt have had to do > the > > > "most dangerous" part of the race again. So, are you saying Villeneuve > > talks > > > shit as well? I bet you also think he never took out Damon to win the > > > championship and never tried to wreck Jacques on purpose. > > > > > Villeneuve does tend to talk a lot of shit too, yes. > > Damon who ? Oh , I remember. The little brat who wouldn't have got near a > > bloody Go-Kart if his Dad hadn't been called Graham. > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Hi Steve, if names mean anything, Gerhard Berger, Niki Lauda and Christian Danner all said that it was the right decision to stop the race. Norbert Haug said something to the effect that it was an acceptable decision. The reasoning was always that this much debris on a hi-speed track like Hockenheim could have lead to devastating accidents. The track BTW wasn't cleaned manually, they sent out two road-cleaner trucks to get it cleaned up in time for the restart. Achim

Martin Brundle, another ex F1 driver and Dacvid Coulthard's (Schumacher's main chamionship contender) manager also said the red flag was the right decision. -- Ian P <email invalid due to spammers> "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k19s8$iui$[email hidden]... > Just remember that you have a different view on the track from inside the > cockpit. Marc Surer (former F1-Driver) has said on tv that the red flag was > the right decision. Surer is from Suisse and surely not known as a big > supporter of Schumacher. > > > > -- > Have several nice days !!! > > > Michael Heymanns > Team-Manager SRG > > IWSC Champion 2000 > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 1999 > TPTCC Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > www.srg-group.de > www.teamsrg.de > www.tptcc.de > > 1&1 Profiseller > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:3b640cf1$[email hidden]... > > No, it was DCs fault at Silverstone. Schumacher is a fast driver but he is > a > > cheat who gets preferential treatment from Bernie and F1. I am not a fan > of > > any driver so I'm not blinded by the love of MS that some people here seem > > to be. I went through the MS thing a few weeks ago with someone so I'm not > > gonna do it again. > > > > JV said on ITV that he wanted the race to go on and was surprised it was > > stopped and I'm gonna trust his judgement ahead on any guys in here. > > > > -- > > > > Steve Levett > >

The race can be stopped/restarted at any time. The original grid positions are used if the restart is called within the first 2 laps of the race. If more than 2 laps have been run, then the current positions determine the spots on the grid (they add the times of the "first" race to the times of the "second" race IIRC). Steve Levett wrote:

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> > But dont F1 rules state that you cant have a restart after the cars have > completed the 1st lap which is what they did? 4 or 5 laps under the pace car > at 5 minutes per lap would have given the marshalls plenty of time to clear > up, they use trucks on the course behind the pace car in CART and NASCAR so > why not F1? I'm sure a tyre would have failed if it was going to do so in > the 5 or so laps behind the pace car which would not result in a dangerous > accident. > > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k1aeg$16pns$[email hidden]... > > Hi Steve, > > > > if names mean anything, Gerhard Berger, Niki Lauda and Christian Danner > all > > said that it was the right decision to stop the race. Norbert Haug said > > something to the effect that it was an acceptable decision. > > > > The reasoning was always that this much debris on a hi-speed track like > > Hockenheim could have lead to devastating accidents. > > > > The track BTW wasn't cleaned manually, they sent out two road-cleaner > trucks > > to get it cleaned up in time for the restart. > > > > Achim > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Yep. looks like Stevie Levett is wrong this time. "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k1adv$nt5$[email hidden]...

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> Martin Brundle, another ex F1 driver and Dacvid Coulthard's (Schumacher's > main chamionship contender) manager also said the red flag was the right > decision. > > -- > > Ian P > <email invalid due to spammers> > > > "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k19s8$iui$[email hidden]... > > Just remember that you have a different view on the track from inside

the

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> > cockpit. Marc Surer (former F1-Driver) has said on tv that the red flag > was > > the right decision. Surer is from Suisse and surely not known as a big > > supporter of Schumacher. > > > > > > > > -- > > Have several nice days !!! > > > > > > Michael Heymanns > > Team-Manager SRG > > > > IWSC Champion 2000 > > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > > TPTCC Champion 1999 > > TPTCC Champion 2000 > > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > > > www.srg-group.de > > www.teamsrg.de > > www.tptcc.de > > > > 1&1 Profiseller > > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > news:3b640cf1$[email hidden]... > > > No, it was DCs fault at Silverstone. Schumacher is a fast driver but

he > is > > a > > > cheat who gets preferential treatment from Bernie and F1. I am not afan

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> > of > > > any driver so I'm not blinded by the love of MS that some people here > seem > > > to be. I went through the MS thing a few weeks ago with someone so I'm > not > > > gonna do it again. > > > > > > JV said on ITV that he wanted the race to go on and was surprised it

was

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> > > stopped and I'm gonna trust his judgement ahead on any guys in here. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > >

I believe he won his high school championship as well. "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k19ob$itn$[email hidden]...

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> Double World Champion??? Jacques was champion only in 1997 or did I miss > something? > > > -- > Have several nice days !!! > > > Michael Heymanns > Team-Manager SRG > > IWSC Champion 2000 > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 1999 > TPTCC Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > www.srg-group.de > www.teamsrg.de > www.tptcc.de > > 1&1 Profiseller > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:3b640b61$[email hidden]... > > > > So you are saying you know more about race matters than a double World > > champion? > > > > Steve Levett > > > > "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:9k18ln$2768k$[email hidden]... > > > > > > Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Jacques was interviewed and said he was "very surprised" as they has > > > already > > > > gone through the debris once and he said they shouldnt have had to

do > > the > > > > "most dangerous" part of the race again. So, are you sayingVilleneuve > > > talks > > > > shit as well? I bet you also think he never took out Damon to winthe > > > > championship and never tried to wreck Jacques on purpose. > > > > > > > Villeneuve does tend to talk a lot of shit too, yes. > > > Damon who ? Oh , I remember. The little brat who wouldn't have gotnear

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> a > > > bloody Go-Kart if his Dad hadn't been called Graham. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > >

The red flag was thrown *after* everyone had just driven through the debris. "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k14vb$21fbe$[email hidden]... > > Don't talk shit. They had already completed another lap and every car was > trying desperately to avoid the debris. > What's your next conspiracy theory ? Montoya was deliberately held up onhis > own pit stop so that Ralf could get past and win ? Give it a rest. > >

Didn't we speak about Formula 1??? -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email hidden]... > Didnt he win the CART championship as well? > > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k19ob$itn$[email hidden]... > > Double World Champion??? Jacques was champion only in 1997 or did I miss > > something? > > > > > > -- > > Have several nice days !!! > > > > > > Michael Heymanns > > Team-Manager SRG > > > > IWSC Champion 2000 > > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > > TPTCC Champion 1999 > > TPTCC Champion 2000 > > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > > > www.srg-group.de > > www.teamsrg.de > > www.tptcc.de > > > > 1&1 Profiseller > > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > news:3b640b61$[email hidden]... > > > > > > So you are saying you know more about race matters than a double World > > > champion? > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > > "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:9k18ln$2768k$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > Jacques was interviewed and said he was "very surprised" as they has > > > > already > > > > > gone through the debris once and he said they shouldnt have had to > do > > > the > > > > > "most dangerous" part of the race again. So, are you saying > Villeneuve > > > > talks > > > > > shit as well? I bet you also think he never took out Damon to win > the > > > > > championship and never tried to wreck Jacques on purpose. > > > > > > > > > Villeneuve does tend to talk a lot of shit too, yes. > > > > Damon who ? Oh , I remember. The little brat who wouldn't have got > near > > a > > > > bloody Go-Kart if his Dad hadn't been called Graham. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

On Sat, 28 Jul 2001 17:15:48 +0100, "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>But dont F1 rules state that you cant have a restart after the cars have >completed the 1st lap which is what they did? 4 or 5 laps under the pace car >at 5 minutes per lap would have given the marshalls plenty of time to clear >up, they use trucks on the course behind the pace car in CART and NASCAR so >why not F1? I'm sure a tyre would have failed if it was going to do so in >the 5 or so laps behind the pace car which would not result in a dangerous >accident.

wouldn't that be unfair on the driver who unwittingly drove over a piece of carbon fibre? he would have to pit and it wasn't his fault. this argument is going nowhere. the FIA seemed to act in the greater good for a change. The fact that it worked in schumi's favour this time was probably co-incidental. no-one could have predicted the possible tire failures and i believe that the race stewards acted cautiously and responsibly. if i were a schumey basher i would rather be commenting how schumey didn't make a big enough effort to get off the track. hehehe. i think a thread related to ralfs comment about montoya racing off at the start would be more interesting than this, though... just my 0.02c. enjoy the cart later. caught the end of the qualifying. tough luck for helio. Regards all, istoff

Steve, F1 affisheeanadios don't consider CART to be a World Championship, at least not of the same level. So when you said two time World Champ, the F1 crowd questioned you because he hasn't won 2 titles in F1. Kinda like American's don't consider the Japanese Baseball Champs to be on Par with US World Series winners. He accomplishments are great, but his lackluster performance with a down-cycle Williams and a new startup like BAR have tarnished his reputation. Put JV in a Red Horse or the Merced/Mac team and folks here most likely would have a greater respect for his accomplishments. Plus he's not from 'the Continent' so that weighs against him as well. What F1 needs is Eddie Irvine and Jacques on the same team...:) dave henrie "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Villenueve, F1 and CART? > > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k1a7r$1ns$[email hidden]... > > Who's the double world champion ? > > > > -- > > > > Ian P > > <email invalid due to spammers> > > > > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:3b640b61$[email hidden]... > > > > > > So you are saying you know more about race matters than a double World > > > champion? > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > > "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:9k18ln$2768k$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > Jacques was interviewed and said he was "very surprised" as they

has

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> > > > already > > > > > gone through the debris once and he said they shouldnt have had to > do > > > the > > > > > "most dangerous" part of the race again. So, are you saying > Villeneuve > > > > talks > > > > > shit as well? I bet you also think he never took out Damon to win > the > > > > > championship and never tried to wreck Jacques on purpose. > > > > > > > > > Villeneuve does tend to talk a lot of shit too, yes. > > > > Damon who ? Oh , I remember. The little brat who wouldn't have got > near > > a > > > > bloody Go-Kart if his Dad hadn't been called Graham. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Steve Levett wrote: > I'm sure a tyre would have failed if it was going to do so in > the 5 or so laps behind the pace car which would not result in a dangerous > accident. And you'd bet your life on that would you? Are you sure you aren't just letting your anti Schumacher feeling get the better of your good judgement? Gerry

well, you have the DEFINITE point.. They should have redflagged IMMEDIATLY, not after 1 lap where this is the time where the MOST debris are still on the track, of course once the safety car has been there once they shouldn't have red flagged the race. Now it's another point to debate whether it was done FOR Scumacher or against or whatever, another point is that it is the race director and not the FIA stewart who decides about the red flag (and about the ralf penalty in nurburg), in both cases it happened in Germany, with German race directors, of course the ones from nurburg are famous for their "strange" decisions (superbike race in nurburg in 99) but NOBODY can say WHY they did it the way they did, the only thing wa can say is that it was a mistake to let the cars pass in the shit once and stop them after, they should have redflagged IMMEDIATLY. "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message news: 9k17p5$iei$[email hidden]... > > it? So I personally think that the decision was correct to clean thetrack, > maybe it would have been even better to stop the field BEFORE they came to > that part of the track. >

> Par with US World Series winners. US-World series...how vain to call a national championship the WORLD series. Even if the US teams are the best at baseball, american football or basketball, how can they call themselves WORLD champion when it's only a north-american championship... The UEFA champion's league is not the WORLD champion's league of football, and yet andy 1st league European team can kick ass of the best US football team... See what I mean, it's NOBODY'S fault, not dave's on top af all, but sometimes americans are SOOO proud that they forget they are not the only land on earth. Let the flaming begin...

Hi Steve, truly good style is to know when it's time to stop insisting ;-) Achim "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3b641afa$[email hidden]... > But dont F1 rules state that you cant have a restart after the cars have > completed the 1st lap which is what they did? 4 or 5 laps under the pacecar > at 5 minutes per lap would have given the marshalls plenty of time toclear > up, they use trucks on the course behind the pace car in CART and NASCARso

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> why not F1? I'm sure a tyre would have failed if it was going to do so in > the 5 or so laps behind the pace car which would not result in a dangerous > accident. > > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k1aeg$16pns$[email hidden]... > > Hi Steve, > > > > if names mean anything, Gerhard Berger, Niki Lauda and Christian Danner > all > > said that it was the right decision to stop the race. Norbert Haug said > > something to the effect that it was an acceptable decision. > > > > The reasoning was always that this much debris on a hi-speed track like > > Hockenheim could have lead to devastating accidents. > > > > The track BTW wasn't cleaned manually, they sent out two road-cleaner > trucks > > to get it cleaned up in time for the restart. > > > > Achim > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

And baseball as well, hehe -- Steve Levett ------------------ "Z (zed, not zee)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 05:42:42 GMT, "Gault" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >No, it's more like we bought it and import the players. :-) > > > >(And it's 'zee'!) > > > > Next you'll be telling me americans invented basketball. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Funny how all this become when you think about how NASCAR, CART, IRL, Indy-lights and just about any other racing series in the USA managed to clean the track with 'blowers' or manual labour without stopping the race. Even on tracks thats no more than 1/5th the length of Hockenheim :-) -- ed_

No, it wouldn't have been stopped for Ralf, just Michael. :) -- Steve Levett ------------------ "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k42o5$4qg$[email hidden]... > Oh and you are right: It was always dangerous to drive in front of Senna: > Ask Nigel Mansell about it or Alain Prost. > > As Mario has written before: If you have seen his first races in F1 in the > Toleman-Hart and especially in the more competitive Lotus-Honda you just > have to say that Ayrton has made stupid things at the start of his career > and during his first years and that he was very aggressive in his kind of > driving - too aggressive for a lot of people. > But Ayrton is a hero and Michael is the bad boy. > > BTW, Heidfeld made a superb start at Hockenheim in his Sauber and he has > passed one of the McLaren's, but unfortunatly foor him the race was stopped. > After the restart he was crashed out by Pedro de la Rosa who was much too > late on the brakes. Why wasn't the race stopped after that aciident? I mean: > Heidfeld is also a german. Oh I see, his name is not Schumacher.:-)))) > > And one more thing: I think the whole world-championship is a total desaster > after Eddie Jordan has fired HHF - my favourite driver. No, I do not say > that he is the best driver, he is just the driver I like the most. > > > -- > Have several nice days !!! > > > Michael Heymanns > Team-Manager SRG > > IWSC Champion 2000 > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 1999 > TPTCC Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > www.srg-group.de > www.teamsrg.de > www.tptcc.de > > 1&1 Profiseller > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:9k3o18$kaj$[email hidden]... > > > > "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:9k3h7c$f0$[email hidden]... > > > > > It seems whenever Michael does something, it's wrong - no matter what he > > > does. Why do you people have such a problem with him? Ayrton Senna > wasn't > > an > > > angel too, but he is known as the best driver in the world. He has done > > some > > > stupid things in his career too, but it seems in Michael's case > everything > > > is stupid. > > > He IS the best driver in the moment and if you have a problem to deal > with > > > it I can't help you. You don't have to like him, but is it too much to > ask > > > for a little respect? Well, it seems it is. > > > Have you ever talked with Michael Schumacher? Have you ever seen him in > > > private? All I can say that he is a great driver and that I don't know > > > enough of the person Michael Schumacher to make my own judgement about > > him. > > > Why is it so difficult to respect one of the most succesful drivers in > the > > > history of F1. It seems there are the same problems with Jeff Gordon in > > > NASCAR. Are they just too succesful? > > > > > > It looks like people who like Ayrton Senna are very young and > didn't > > actualy watched F1 when Senna began. F1 was a first class noble sport. > > Drivers liked to think about themselfs as gentelmens, and acted like that. > > Then came Senna. He was most arrogant driver F1 has ever seen. Nobody > > liked him. It was allways dangerous to drive in front of him. He simply > ran > > into everybody. When he cuoldn't overtake with his driving ability, and > that > > was most of the time, he used brute force. The rael drivers couldn't stand > > it, and were disgusted with that. The real drivers used driving bravoures > > like MS is doing today. But in those days young drivers stayed away if > they > > hadn't experience to answer to that. Didn't just run into good drivers > back > > like thay run into MS's back today. > > BTW, Senna cannot be the best driver in the world if he is less > > succesful than MS, but drove in better cars than MS is driveing today. It > > simply isn't logical. > > BTW (2), Senna had only 41 wins out of 65 poles. Second number > > usualy tells you about cars ability. Diference between second and first > > tells you about drivers ability. It is -24, and by far the worst of all > > drivers. MS have 50 wins out of 40 poles. That's +10. > > BTW (3), Senna realy is the best driver in rain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Ed Solheim wrote: > > Funny how all this become when you think about how NASCAR, CART, IRL, > Indy-lights and just about any other racing series in the USA managed to > clean the track with 'blowers' or manual labour without stopping the race. > Even on tracks thats no more than 1/5th the length of Hockenheim :-) Just another example of an area where F1 is WAY behind CART etc. Another area being entertainment of course Gerry

"Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> > >> Par with US World Series winners. > >US-World series...how vain to call a national championship the WORLD series. > >Even if the US teams are the best at baseball, american football or >basketball, how can they call themselves WORLD champion when it's only a >north-american championship... > >The UEFA champion's league is not the WORLD champion's league of football, >and yet andy 1st league European team can kick ass of the best US football >team... > >See what I mean, it's NOBODY'S fault, not dave's on top af all, but >sometimes americans are SOOO proud that they forget they are not the only >land on earth. > >Let the flaming begin... >

By all means, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant. If you would bother to do some research on the subject, you would know WHY it is called the World Series. Originally, the end-of-season baseball championship was sponsored by a newspaper, the now defunct "New York World". Hence, the name "World Series". As for basketball or U.S. football, do you realistically think that there is any other football or basketball team in the rest of the world that is going to beat the Super Bowl or NBA champion at the top of their game? You're absolutely right, the UEFA champ is not the world champ. Yes, the top European team could probably easily beat any U.S. soccer team. However, there are other major soccer powers in the world, some of the South American countries for example, that would be very competitive against the UEFA champs. Dan (not an American)

Joachim Trensz wrote:

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> > Hi Steve, > > truly good style is to know when it's time to stop insisting ;-) > > Achim > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3b641afa$[email hidden]... > > But dont F1 rules state that you cant have a restart after the cars have > > completed the 1st lap which is what they did? 4 or 5 laps under the pace > car > > at 5 minutes per lap would have given the marshalls plenty of time to > clear > > up, they use trucks on the course behind the pace car in CART and NASCAR > so > > why not F1? I'm sure a tyre would have failed if it was going to do so in > > the 5 or so laps behind the pace car which would not result in a dangerous > > accident.

Or to put it another way, Achim... The difference between just losING and being a losER is knowing when you've lost :). Gerry

Coulthard and Brundle aren't real racers? Have you even driven a F1-Car on your own that you can make this statement? Marc Surer born on Sep, 18th 1951 in Aresdorf, Suisse 1979 European F2 Champion Between 1979 and 1986 81 starts in Formula 1. Has also won the 24h of Spa in 1985 and at Monza in a WSC. If the start is the most dangerous part of all, why don't we use a pacecar for every start??? -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3b6424de$[email hidden]... > I agree with JV who is one of the real racers unlike Coultard, Brundle etc. > (never heard of Surer) It was safer to use the pace car than to redo the > most dangerous part of the race. > > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:QTW87.5750$[email hidden]... > > Yep. looks like Stevie Levett is wrong this time. > > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:9k1adv$nt5$[email hidden]... > > > Martin Brundle, another ex F1 driver and Dacvid Coulthard's > (Schumacher's > > > main chamionship contender) manager also said the red flag was the right > > > decision. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Ian P > > > <email invalid due to spammers> > > > > > > > > > "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:9k19s8$iui$[email hidden]... > > > > Just remember that you have a different view on the track from inside > > the > > > > cockpit. Marc Surer (former F1-Driver) has said on tv that the red > flag > > > was > > > > the right decision. Surer is from Suisse and surely not known as a big > > > > supporter of Schumacher. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Have several nice days !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael Heymanns > > > > Team-Manager SRG > > > > > > > > IWSC Champion 2000 > > > > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > > > > TPTCC Champion 1999 > > > > TPTCC Champion 2000 > > > > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > > > > > > > www.srg-group.de > > > > www.teamsrg.de > > > > www.tptcc.de > > > > > > > > 1&1 Profiseller > > > > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > > > news:3b640cf1$[email hidden]... > > > > > No, it was DCs fault at Silverstone. Schumacher is a fast driver but > > he > > > is > > > > a > > > > > cheat who gets preferential treatment from Bernie and F1. I am not a > > fan > > > > of > > > > > any driver so I'm not blinded by the love of MS that some people > here > > > seem > > > > > to be. I went through the MS thing a few weeks ago with someone so > I'm > > > not > > > > > gonna do it again. > > > > > > > > > > JV said on ITV that he wanted the race to go on and was surprised it > > was > > > > > stopped and I'm gonna trust his judgement ahead on any guys in here. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

I do respect Jacques Villeneuve a lot and I also like the CART-Series a lot, but we were talking about F1, otheriwse we could say that Jarno Trulli is also world-champion because he won a title in a KART-championship. If you are saying that we europeans are ignoring the US-Sports or that we don't respect people because they are from North America, than you should have a look at most of your american people, where a lot of people even don't know that there is a world outside the US. Jacques Villeneuve is a well respected driver in F1 and I think there are a lot of people who wants to see him winning again, but nevertheless he is still only a one-time F1-World Champion. -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:kgX87.4745$[email hidden]... > Steve, > F1 affisheeanadios don't consider CART to be a World Championship, at > least not of the same level. So when you said two time World Champ, the F1 > crowd questioned you because he hasn't won 2 titles in F1. > Kinda like American's don't consider the Japanese Baseball Champs to be on > Par with US World Series winners. > He accomplishments are great, but his lackluster performance with a > down-cycle Williams and a new startup like BAR have tarnished his > reputation. Put JV in a Red Horse or the Merced/Mac team and folks here > most likely would have a greater respect for his accomplishments. Plus he's > not from 'the Continent' so that weighs against him as well. What F1 needs > is Eddie Irvine and Jacques on the same team...:) > dave henrie > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Villenueve, F1 and CART? > > > > -- > > > > Steve Levett > > > > ------------------ > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:9k1a7r$1ns$[email hidden]... > > > Who's the double world champion ? > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Ian P > > > <email invalid due to spammers> > > > > > > > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:3b640b61$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > So you are saying you know more about race matters than a double World > > > > champion? > > > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > > > > "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:9k18ln$2768k$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > Jacques was interviewed and said he was "very surprised" as they > has > > > > > already > > > > > > gone through the debris once and he said they shouldnt have had to > > do > > > > the > > > > > > "most dangerous" part of the race again. So, are you saying > > Villeneuve > > > > > talks > > > > > > shit as well? I bet you also think he never took out Damon to win > > the > > > > > > championship and never tried to wreck Jacques on purpose. > > > > > > > > > > > Villeneuve does tend to talk a lot of shit too, yes. > > > > > Damon who ? Oh , I remember. The little brat who wouldn't have got > > near > > > a > > > > > bloody Go-Kart if his Dad hadn't been called Graham. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > >

But all this series have a different book of rules comparing to F1. I think in most series under the banner of the FIA we would have seen the same thing happened. -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:nLX87.1790$e%[email hidden]... > Funny how all this become when you think about how NASCAR, CART, IRL, > Indy-lights and just about any other racing series in the USA managed to > clean the track with 'blowers' or manual labour without stopping the race. > Even on tracks thats no more than 1/5th the length of Hockenheim :-) > > -- > ed_ > > > >

Resting right now as I type :) "redTed" wrote: | Give it a rest. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

I guess what you think is absolutly unimportant, because the race stewards whoi have decided this are responsible for the race, the drivers and the spectators. What would you have written when the race continued after some laps behind the pacecar and than some cars crashed out because of the tires? Do you know how it feels to loose a tire at full speed at Hockenheim? Do you want to be in that car? Think twice about it and than tell us what you would have decided instead of the stewards. BTW, you don't win three championships in F1 (soon to be four), win 50 races and achieve over 40 pole-positions only by cheating. -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email hidden]... > I think races should only be restarted if there is a need for an ambulance > or the track is completely blocked like the Spa race a few years ago. > > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:nLX87.1790$e%[email hidden]... > > Funny how all this become when you think about how NASCAR, CART, IRL, > > Indy-lights and just about any other racing series in the USA managed to > > clean the track with 'blowers' or manual labour without stopping the race. > > Even on tracks thats no more than 1/5th the length of Hockenheim :-) > > > > -- > > ed_ > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

On Sat, 28 Jul 2001 18:34:45 +0100, "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I agree with that, only the NHL in US sports dont consider the winners world >champions. NHL is a Canadian sport, they just let americans play in it.

I remember a big crash in the DTM (which starts behind the pacecar) a few years ago, where nearly the whole field crashed after the start. And didn't the same thing happened at one of the US 500 at Michigan? Starts are always dangerous, because everyone wants to get to the front and some people can't learn that you have to break before a turn and racing is and always will be dangerous. Everyone of the drivers knows it and everyone is still driving and we are still watching. -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3b643625$[email hidden]... > I was quoting another person on the "real racers" thing. There is no way on > earth you can deny that the start is not the most dangerous part of a F1 > race. That's just comical. That's why nearly every other major series does > use a pacecar to start the drivers. > > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k1ioc$ln6$[email hidden]... > > Coulthard and Brundle aren't real racers? Have you even driven a F1-Car on > > your own that you can make this statement? > > > > Marc Surer > > born on Sep, 18th 1951 in Aresdorf, Suisse > > > > 1979 European F2 Champion > > > > Between 1979 and 1986 81 starts in Formula 1. Has also won the 24h of Spa > in > > 1985 and at Monza in a WSC. > > > > If the start is the most dangerous part of all, why don't we use a pacecar > > for every start??? > > > > > > -- > > Have several nice days !!! > > > > > > Michael Heymanns > > Team-Manager SRG > > > > IWSC Champion 2000 > > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > > TPTCC Champion 1999 > > TPTCC Champion 2000 > > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > > > www.srg-group.de > > www.teamsrg.de > > www.tptcc.de > > > > 1&1 Profiseller > > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > news:3b6424de$[email hidden]... > > > I agree with JV who is one of the real racers unlike Coultard, Brundle > > etc. > > > (never heard of Surer) It was safer to use the pace car than to redo the > > > most dangerous part of the race. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > > ------------------ > > > "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:QTW87.5750$[email hidden]... > > > > Yep. looks like Stevie Levett is wrong this time. > > > > > > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:9k1adv$nt5$[email hidden]... > > > > > Martin Brundle, another ex F1 driver and Dacvid Coulthard's > > > (Schumacher's > > > > > main chamionship contender) manager also said the red flag was the > > right > > > > > decision. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Ian P > > > > > <email invalid due to spammers> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:9k19s8$iui$[email hidden]... > > > > > > Just remember that you have a different view on the track from > > inside > > > > the > > > > > > cockpit. Marc Surer (former F1-Driver) has said on tv that the red > > > flag > > > > > was > > > > > > the right decision. Surer is from Suisse and surely not known as a > > big > > > > > > supporter of Schumacher. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Have several nice days !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael Heymanns > > > > > > Team-Manager SRG > > > > > > > > > > > > IWSC Champion 2000 > > > > > > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > > > > > > TPTCC Champion 1999 > > > > > > TPTCC Champion 2000 > > > > > > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > > > > > > > > > > > www.srg-group.de > > > > > > www.teamsrg.de > > > > > > www.tptcc.de > > > > > > > > > > > > 1&1 Profiseller > > > > > > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > > > > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > > > > > news:3b640cf1$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > No, it was DCs fault at Silverstone. Schumacher is a fast driver > > but > > > > he > > > > > is > > > > > > a > > > > > > > cheat who gets preferential treatment from Bernie and F1. I am > not > > a > > > > fan > > > > > > of > > > > > > > any driver so I'm not blinded by the love of MS that some people > > > here > > > > > seem > > > > > > > to be. I went through the MS thing a few weeks ago with someone > so > > > I'm > > > > > not > > > > > > > gonna do it again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JV said on ITV that he wanted the race to go on and was > surprised > > it > > > > was > > > > > > > stopped and I'm gonna trust his judgement ahead on any guys in > > here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3b643c4c$[email hidden]... > But what if the same thing happened on the restart and a couple oftyres > went into the crowd? They would have found any tyre problems in the10-15 > minutes behind the pace car. I still think its more dangerous to doanother At a fraction of full downforce, and full centrifugal effects on the tyres? Both these effects go with the square of speed, so if they're maxing out at 100 instead of 200 mph that's only a quarter of the stress on the tyres. Plenty of room for damage to make its presence known once they're back up to speed... Jonny

To say it was one word: YES. No driver can or should decide if there will be a red flag or not. Schumacher has said last year that he would have expected a red flag after the accident and it was the right decision that it didn't come out then. Crashes can happen all the time, as we all have seen in Melbourne or Imola, but driving with 350km/h is dangerous enough so that you don't should take the risk of loosing tires. The F1 has always made the standing start and most of the accidents in a race happens by going into the first corner and not while starting the race. When you start behind the pacecar you will see the cars also going into turn 1 and you will still see some drivers trying to brake late - like the CART-Race at Cleveland. And we can discuss this four hours and days, the rules in F1 are the way they are and they will stay that way for a long time, if you like it or not. CART and NASCAR are handling this in a different way, but I don't think you can call the series more safer than F1. -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3b643d53$[email hidden]... > And here's the JV quote, and I guess what he thinks is un important too? > > Q: What did you see of the incident at the first start? > JV: I didn't see what happened, but I was surprised when there was a red > flag, because we already went through the debris once. By then the track was > clean so the most dangerous moment of the race is actually the start so I > was really really surprised. > > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k1k0i$m45$[email hidden]... > > I guess what you think is absolutly unimportant, because the race stewards > > whoi have decided this are responsible for the race, the drivers and the > > spectators. > > What would you have written when the race continued after some laps behind > > the pacecar and than some cars crashed out because of the tires? Do you > know > > how it feels to loose a tire at full speed at Hockenheim? Do you want to > be > > in that car? > > Think twice about it and than tell us what you would have decided instead > of > > the stewards. > > > > BTW, you don't win three championships in F1 (soon to be four), win 50 > races > > and achieve over 40 pole-positions only by cheating. > > > > -- > > Have several nice days !!! > > > > > > Michael Heymanns > > Team-Manager SRG > > > > IWSC Champion 2000 > > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > > TPTCC Champion 1999 > > TPTCC Champion 2000 > > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > > > www.srg-group.de > > www.teamsrg.de > > www.tptcc.de > > > > 1&1 Profiseller > > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > news:[email hidden]... > > > I think races should only be restarted if there is a need for an > ambulance > > > or the track is completely blocked like the Spa race a few years ago. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > > ------------------ > > > "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:nLX87.1790$e%[email hidden]... > > > > Funny how all this become when you think about how NASCAR, CART, IRL, > > > > Indy-lights and just about any other racing series in the USA managed > to > > > > clean the track with 'blowers' or manual labour without stopping the > > race. > > > > Even on tracks thats no more than 1/5th the length of Hockenheim :-) > > > > > > > > -- > > > > ed_ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Never heard of surer. Hmmm. Not an F1 historian then. As far as JV goes, this is the guy who rates his accidents - I remember hearing him say how his spa Eau Rouge one was his best yet. Are you really gullible enough to entrust the bravado of his fighting talk as grounds for risking lives of other driver's as they suffer a tyre blowout in a 200 mph braking area before one of the chicanes? Needle sharp shrapnell was scattered in abundance all over the circuit. The argument about the start being the most dangerous part was just stupid. Sure, it's dangerous but it's part of the normal procedure in any race. It's what drivers are paid to do (just like pilots of planes are paid to land them) ! Driving over unneccessary and potentially lethal debris is not part of the brief. MS Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3b6424de$[email hidden]... > I agree with JV who is one of the real racers unlike Coultard, Brundleetc.

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> (never heard of Surer) It was safer to use the pace car than to redo the > most dangerous part of the race. > > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:QTW87.5750$[email hidden]... > > Yep. looks like Stevie Levett is wrong this time. > > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:9k1adv$nt5$[email hidden]... > > > Martin Brundle, another ex F1 driver and Dacvid Coulthard's > (Schumacher's > > > main chamionship contender) manager also said the red flag was the

right

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> > > decision. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Ian P > > > <email invalid due to spammers> > > > > > > > > > "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:9k19s8$iui$[email hidden]... > > > > Just remember that you have a different view on the track from

inside > > the > > > > cockpit. Marc Surer (former F1-Driver) has said on tv that the red > flag > > > was > > > > the right decision. Surer is from Suisse and surely not known as abig

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> > > > supporter of Schumacher. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Have several nice days !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael Heymanns > > > > Team-Manager SRG > > > > > > > > IWSC Champion 2000 > > > > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > > > > TPTCC Champion 1999 > > > > TPTCC Champion 2000 > > > > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > > > > > > > www.srg-group.de > > > > www.teamsrg.de > > > > www.tptcc.de > > > > > > > > 1&1 Profiseller > > > > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > > > news:3b640cf1$[email hidden]... > > > > > No, it was DCs fault at Silverstone. Schumacher is a fast driver

but > > he > > > is > > > > a > > > > > cheat who gets preferential treatment from Bernie and F1. I am nota

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> > fan > > > > of > > > > > any driver so I'm not blinded by the love of MS that some people > here > > > seem > > > > > to be. I went through the MS thing a few weeks ago with someone so > I'm > > > not > > > > > gonna do it again. > > > > > > > > > > JV said on ITV that he wanted the race to go on and was surprised

it > > was > > > > > stopped and I'm gonna trust his judgement ahead on any guys inhere.

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> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

You forgot to mention Brundle being world sportscar champion and Taking Senna right down to the wire in his F3 days :-) MS Michael Heymanns <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k1ioc$ln6$[email hidden]...

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> Coulthard and Brundle aren't real racers? Have you even driven a F1-Car on > your own that you can make this statement? > > Marc Surer > born on Sep, 18th 1951 in Aresdorf, Suisse > > 1979 European F2 Champion > > Between 1979 and 1986 81 starts in Formula 1. Has also won the 24h of Spa

in

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> 1985 and at Monza in a WSC. > > If the start is the most dangerous part of all, why don't we use a pacecar > for every start??? > > > -- > Have several nice days !!! > > > Michael Heymanns > Team-Manager SRG > > IWSC Champion 2000 > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 1999 > TPTCC Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > www.srg-group.de > www.teamsrg.de > www.tptcc.de > > 1&1 Profiseller > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:3b6424de$[email hidden]... > > I agree with JV who is one of the real racers unlike Coultard, Brundle > etc. > > (never heard of Surer) It was safer to use the pace car than to redo the > > most dangerous part of the race. > > > > -- > > > > Steve Levett > > > > ------------------ > > "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:QTW87.5750$[email hidden]... > > > Yep. looks like Stevie Levett is wrong this time. > > > > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:9k1adv$nt5$[email hidden]... > > > > Martin Brundle, another ex F1 driver and Dacvid Coulthard's > > (Schumacher's > > > > main chamionship contender) manager also said the red flag was the > right > > > > decision. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Ian P > > > > <email invalid due to spammers> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:9k19s8$iui$[email hidden]... > > > > > Just remember that you have a different view on the track from > inside > > > the > > > > > cockpit. Marc Surer (former F1-Driver) has said on tv that the red > > flag > > > > was > > > > > the right decision. Surer is from Suisse and surely not known as a > big > > > > > supporter of Schumacher. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Have several nice days !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael Heymanns > > > > > Team-Manager SRG > > > > > > > > > > IWSC Champion 2000 > > > > > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > > > > > TPTCC Champion 1999 > > > > > TPTCC Champion 2000 > > > > > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > > > > > > > > > www.srg-group.de > > > > > www.teamsrg.de > > > > > www.tptcc.de > > > > > > > > > > 1&1 Profiseller > > > > > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > > > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > > > > news:3b640cf1$[email hidden]... > > > > > > No, it was DCs fault at Silverstone. Schumacher is a fast driver > but > > > he > > > > is > > > > > a > > > > > > cheat who gets preferential treatment from Bernie and F1. I am

not

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> a > > > fan > > > > > of > > > > > > any driver so I'm not blinded by the love of MS that some people > > here > > > > seem > > > > > > to be. I went through the MS thing a few weeks ago with someone

so > > I'm > > > > not > > > > > > gonna do it again. > > > > > > > > > > > > JV said on ITV that he wanted the race to go on and wassurprised

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> it > > > was > > > > > > stopped and I'm gonna trust his judgement ahead on any guys in > here. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > >

Well, I haven't seen a reason to defend drivers which are well known in the history of Formula 1. I respect all drivers in F1 and I wouldn't say that anyone of them isn't a good races, because I can't say that: I have never driven a F1 and I'm sure most of the guys around here haven't done the same.:-) Marc Surer wasn't a frontrunner in F1, because he has driven in teams which haven't the budget to run at the front. He is a well respected driver in europe and a even more respected reporter for Premiere World now. All I can say is that he seems to know everything about F1 and that it is always great to hear his comments. I can't blame anyone for not knowing a specific driver, but if you trust the words from one single driver more than the words of a bunch of people there must be something wrong. -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Mark Seery" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:LkZ87.22305$[email hidden]... > You forgot to mention Brundle being world sportscar champion and Taking > Senna right down to the wire in his F3 days :-) > > MS > > Michael Heymanns <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k1ioc$ln6$[email hidden]... > > Coulthard and Brundle aren't real racers? Have you even driven a F1-Car on > > your own that you can make this statement? > > > > Marc Surer > > born on Sep, 18th 1951 in Aresdorf, Suisse > > > > 1979 European F2 Champion > > > > Between 1979 and 1986 81 starts in Formula 1. Has also won the 24h of Spa > in > > 1985 and at Monza in a WSC. > > > > If the start is the most dangerous part of all, why don't we use a pacecar > > for every start??? > > > > > > -- > > Have several nice days !!! > > > > > > Michael Heymanns > > Team-Manager SRG > > > > IWSC Champion 2000 > > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > > TPTCC Champion 1999 > > TPTCC Champion 2000 > > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > > > www.srg-group.de > > www.teamsrg.de > > www.tptcc.de > > > > 1&1 Profiseller > > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > news:3b6424de$[email hidden]... > > > I agree with JV who is one of the real racers unlike Coultard, Brundle > > etc. > > > (never heard of Surer) It was safer to use the pace car than to redo the > > > most dangerous part of the race. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > > ------------------ > > > "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:QTW87.5750$[email hidden]... > > > > Yep. looks like Stevie Levett is wrong this time. > > > > > > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:9k1adv$nt5$[email hidden]... > > > > > Martin Brundle, another ex F1 driver and Dacvid Coulthard's > > > (Schumacher's > > > > > main chamionship contender) manager also said the red flag was the > > right > > > > > decision. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Ian P > > > > > <email invalid due to spammers> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:9k19s8$iui$[email hidden]... > > > > > > Just remember that you have a different view on the track from > > inside > > > > the > > > > > > cockpit. Marc Surer (former F1-Driver) has said on tv that the red > > > flag > > > > > was > > > > > > the right decision. Surer is from Suisse and surely not known as a > > big > > > > > > supporter of Schumacher. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Have several nice days !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael Heymanns > > > > > > Team-Manager SRG > > > > > > > > > > > > IWSC Champion 2000 > > > > > > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > > > > > > TPTCC Champion 1999 > > > > > > TPTCC Champion 2000 > > > > > > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > > > > > > > > > > > www.srg-group.de > > > > > > www.teamsrg.de > > > > > > www.tptcc.de > > > > > > > > > > > > 1&1 Profiseller > > > > > > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > > > > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > > > > > news:3b640cf1$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > No, it was DCs fault at Silverstone. Schumacher is a fast driver > > but > > > > he > > > > > is > > > > > > a > > > > > > > cheat who gets preferential treatment from Bernie and F1. I am > not > > a > > > > fan > > > > > > of > > > > > > > any driver so I'm not blinded by the love of MS that some people > > > here > > > > > seem > > > > > > > to be. I went through the MS thing a few weeks ago with someone > so > > > I'm > > > > > not > > > > > > > gonna do it again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JV said on ITV that he wanted the race to go on and was > surprised > > it > > > > was > > > > > > > stopped and I'm gonna trust his judgement ahead on any guys in > > here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > > > > > >

Couldn't have said that better Mark. -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Mark Seery" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:wjZ87.22300$[email hidden]... > Never heard of surer. Hmmm. Not an F1 historian then. > > As far as JV goes, this is the guy who rates his accidents - I remember > hearing him say how his spa Eau Rouge one was his best yet. > > Are you really gullible enough to entrust the bravado of his fighting talk > as grounds for risking lives of other driver's as they suffer a tyre blowout > in a 200 mph braking area before one of the chicanes? Needle sharp shrapnell > was scattered in abundance all over the circuit. > > The argument about the start being the most dangerous part was just stupid. > Sure, it's dangerous but it's part of the normal procedure in any race. It's > what drivers are paid to do (just like pilots of planes are paid to land > them) ! Driving over unneccessary and potentially lethal debris is not part > of the brief. > > MS > > > Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3b6424de$[email hidden]... > > I agree with JV who is one of the real racers unlike Coultard, Brundle > etc. > > (never heard of Surer) It was safer to use the pace car than to redo the > > most dangerous part of the race. > > > > -- > > > > Steve Levett > > > > ------------------ > > "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:QTW87.5750$[email hidden]... > > > Yep. looks like Stevie Levett is wrong this time. > > > > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:9k1adv$nt5$[email hidden]... > > > > Martin Brundle, another ex F1 driver and Dacvid Coulthard's > > (Schumacher's > > > > main chamionship contender) manager also said the red flag was the > right > > > > decision. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Ian P > > > > <email invalid due to spammers> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:9k19s8$iui$[email hidden]... > > > > > Just remember that you have a different view on the track from > inside > > > the > > > > > cockpit. Marc Surer (former F1-Driver) has said on tv that the red > > flag > > > > was > > > > > the right decision. Surer is from Suisse and surely not known as a > big > > > > > supporter of Schumacher. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Have several nice days !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael Heymanns > > > > > Team-Manager SRG > > > > > > > > > > IWSC Champion 2000 > > > > > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > > > > > TPTCC Champion 1999 > > > > > TPTCC Champion 2000 > > > > > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > > > > > > > > > www.srg-group.de > > > > > www.teamsrg.de > > > > > www.tptcc.de > > > > > > > > > > 1&1 Profiseller > > > > > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > > > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > > > > news:3b640cf1$[email hidden]... > > > > > > No, it was DCs fault at Silverstone. Schumacher is a fast driver > but > > > he > > > > is > > > > > a > > > > > > cheat who gets preferential treatment from Bernie and F1. I am not > a > > > fan > > > > > of > > > > > > any driver so I'm not blinded by the love of MS that some people > > here > > > > seem > > > > > > to be. I went through the MS thing a few weeks ago with someone so > > I'm > > > > not > > > > > > gonna do it again. > > > > > > > > > > > > JV said on ITV that he wanted the race to go on and was surprised > it > > > was > > > > > > stopped and I'm gonna trust his judgement ahead on any guys in > here. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > >

Hi Gerry, > The difference between just losING > and being a losER is knowing when you've lost :). Well said Gerry :-) Achim

And Baseball was derived from English game. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "Z (zed, not zee)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 17:05:08 GMT, "Gault" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >Truth hurts, doesn't it? Canada- the land of fewer and fewer NHL teams. A > >shame imo. > > > > Yea, truth is that basketball is also a canadian game. :-) -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

"Nick G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Any why do you hate Michael? He is without doubt the most naturally gifted > grand prix driver out there. Damon Hill didn't have it, Mika Hakkinen > DEFINATELY doesn't have it, but he does. Montoya does. Ralf doesn't. Montoya does and Ralf doesn't? The myth lives on. R. Schumacher has badly outqualified Montoya in all but three races this year. Usually by a half second or more. The three in which Montoya did outqualify Ralf, he did so by less than .2 COMBINED. Ralf has three wins, a second, a fourth, and a fifth. Montoya has two seconds and a fourth. Today, according to Ralf, Montoya apparently ignored the warnings that their BMW engine needed to be babied a bit in order to help insure a finish. Ralf drove smart while Montoya drove all out. You saw what happened. Ralf wins and Montoya retires again. They are the same age, and Montoya has been a F1 test driver, along with his F3000 and CART experience, He's not a rookie by any means. David G Fisher

> > By all means, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant. If > you would bother to do some research on the subject, you would know > WHY it is called the World Series. Originally, the end-of-season > baseball championship was sponsored by a newspaper, the now defunct > "New York World". Hence, the name "World Series". As for basketball I didn't know about this point but why do they call themselves WORLD champions ?? I disagree with you about the south american football teams, the NATIONAL teams are on par with "us" europeans but the clubs are quite below because all the best players are over here mostly for financial reasons but anyway... Let's take the Brazilian team, I don't think many players are actually playing in the brazilian championship (or columbian, or argentinian....) Roberto carlos Taffarel Ronaldo Ronaldihno Ze roberto...

> I agree with JV who is one of the real racers unlike Coultard, Brundleetc. > (never heard of Surer) It was safer to use the pace car than to redo the > most dangerous part of the race. I think you are missing the "main" reason it was stopped. If they had continued, there might have been a few tires blown out from all the carbon fiber shreads they ran over. It wasn't worth the risk. In my opinion it was a good call. A simular thing happened at last years German race, involving M. Schumacher, they didn't red flag the race then. It was far more costly in terms of the championship last year (to M. Schumacher), than this years race, so the whole idea that it was just for Micheal doesn't make much sense to me.

"David G Fisher" wrote... > <snip> > Today, according to Ralf, Montoya apparently ignored > the warnings that their BMW engine needed to be babied > a bit in order to help insure a finish.<snip> He didn't ignore the warning, he subserved it to his will to win. I'm sure once Montoya lost the lead in the refueling fiasco, whether the engine lasted or not was of no censequence to him. And this *is* new to him, BTW... relatively speaking CART and F3000 engines are bulletproof. Like I said before... smart can be learned, fast is either there or it's not. It's the oldest F1 platitude in the book, but it's true. Somehow I cannot shake the feeling you're the one who's missing part of the puzzle, David. Have to admit I didn't see it before either. I used to think Boutsen was cheated out of a DWC by Williams after he and Patrese brought the car back to the highest level. Now I understand why Frank chose Nigel Mansell for the attempt. Took 8 years for the penny to drop though. Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

"Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> writes: > But dont F1 rules state that you cant have a restart after the cars have > completed the 1st lap which is what they did? 4 or 5 laps under the pace car > at 5 minutes per lap would have given the marshalls plenty of time to clear > up, I'm not so sure an F1 car can do a 5 minute lap without overheating. -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy"

Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote on 28 Jul 2001: > No, it was DCs fault at Silverstone. Schumacher is a fast driver > but he is a cheat who gets preferential treatment from Bernie and > F1.<snip> Bit like Ayrton Senna, really... <vbeg> > JV said on ITV that he wanted the race to go on and was surprised > it was stopped and I'm gonna trust his judgement ahead on any guys > in here. On the other hand, Prof Sid Watkins (who you have to admit knows a thing or two) talks about this in Autosport this week in relation to Monza last year, and gives the very clear impression that he very much dislikes long safety car periods. He also tells us that Bernie told him that anything over 5 minutes behind the safety car was too long. -- David. (GPLRank handicap -6.57; Monsters of GPL +271.79) The GPL Scrapyard: *will be down for a while - hackers at 9ug :-( * "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

"Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> writes: > I think races should only be restarted if there is a need for an ambulance > or the track is completely blocked like the Spa race a few years ago. Steve, the track _was_ completely blocked, for all practical purposes. -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 gnus don't kill people. gnus-summary-lower-score kills people.

> But what if the same thing happened on the restart and a couple of tyres > went into the crowd? They would have found any tyre problems in the 10-15 > minutes behind the pace car. I still think its more dangerous to doanother > restart than carry on behind the pace car, CART, NASCAR, and the IRL seemto > agree with me. All of these leagues raceon much more dangerous tracks than > Hockenheim. I hate to break it to you, but Nascar doesn't care if people die, it's all good for business for them. Unlike American tracks, it would have been very odd to have a wheel fly into the crowd at Hockenhiem, at the start of a race. Look at the last 2 races at hockenhiem, 2 major accidents on the first lap, no one hurt. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think it was much safer to restart the race, than to have cars flying off the track at 220 Mph due to tyres coming apart.

"Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> writes: > And here's the JV quote, and I guess what he thinks is un important too? > > Q: What did you see of the incident at the first start? > JV: I didn't see what happened, but I was surprised when there was a red > flag, I have a few races under my belt, and I can honestly say that I don't think there has been a single occasion when I wasn't surprised to see the red flag. in fact, a few times I've been so surprised I didn't even see it on the first pass. -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 FJ�SE!

> Q: What did you see of the incident at the first start? > JV: I didn't see what happened, but I was surprised when there was a red > flag, because we already went through the debris once. By then the trackwas > clean so the most dangerous moment of the race is actually the start so I > was really really surprised. To be honest with you, I was suprised he said that. I guess he's used to driving on Firestones.

> > Funny how all this become when you think about how NASCAR, CART, IRL, > > Indy-lights and just about any other racing series in the USA managed to > > clean the track with 'blowers' or manual labour without stopping therace. > > Even on tracks thats no more than 1/5th the length of Hockenheim :-) > > Just another example of an area where F1 is WAY behind CART etc. Another > area being entertainment of course Give me a break! In Cart they have a tow truck to come and pick up the car and take it back to the pits. Remember 3 or 4 races ago in the rain? That was the worst race in history! I'm not even sure I would call it a race, more like watch the tow truck go around the track.

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "David G Fisher" wrote... > > <snip> > > Today, according to Ralf, Montoya apparently ignored > > the warnings that their BMW engine needed to be babied > > a bit in order to help insure a finish.<snip> > > He didn't ignore the warning, he subserved it to his will to win. I'm sure > once Montoya lost the lead in the refueling fiasco, whether the engine > lasted or not was of no censequence to him. And this *is* new to him,

BTW... > relatively speaking CART and F3000 engines are bulletproof. Like I said > before... smart can be learned, fast is either there or it's not. It's the > oldest F1 platitude in the book, but it's true. That's just an excuse. It's not as if it's hard to understand that when you are racing at Hockenheim you need to be concerned with your engine lasting the whole race. More importantly, I showed in the section you snipped that he HASN'T been fast compared to Ralf. David G Fisher > Somehow I cannot shake the feeling you're the one who's missing part ofthe > puzzle, David. Have to admit I didn't see it before either. I used tothink

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> Boutsen was cheated out of a DWC by Williams after he and Patrese brought > the car back to the highest level. Now I understand why Frank chose Nigel > Mansell for the attempt. Took 8 years for the penny to drop though. > > Jan. > =--- > "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. > > >

Becaue no one in the world can beat them. BTW, if enough Americans wanted to dominate soccer world wide, they would. We have a very large population with a mix of different types of athletes (huge factor) who receive the highest level of training. We aren't better people, but we do have the best athletes. David G Fisher "Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:kU097.8868$[email hidden]... >> I didn't know about this point but why do they call themselves WORLD > champions ??

While I agree that the race didn't need to be stopped (it's easy to clean up the track and then have everyone stop for new tires while the safety car is out), I'm glad they did. When I get up early on Sunday morning to watch these guys race, I want to see a race. And I want to see Schumacher, Hakkinen, etc. in the race. This is supposed to be entertaining and since I don't give two hoots who actually wins, I want to see the best out there. Wayne Hutchison "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3b63ec01$[email hidden]...

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> Why should it have been thrown? They would have had about 5 minutes before > the field would come round again behind the pace car. That would leave > plently of time to sweep the track. It was only red flagged to let > Schumacher restart again. > > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Of course, there are some(including myself) who are upset that Mika

wasn't

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> > given the advantage of a red flag to get in the backup car... :( > > Granted, I agree the flag should have been thrown today. But, it should > also > > have been thrown earlier this season... > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats > you > > with experience... > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

jalo wrote: > > > Funny how all this become when you think about how NASCAR, CART, IRL, > > > Indy-lights and just about any other racing series in the USA managedto > > > clean the track with 'blowers' or manual labour without stopping therace.

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> > > Even on tracks thats no more than 1/5th the length of Hockenheim :-) > > > > Just another example of an area where F1 is WAY behind CART etc. Another > > area being entertainment of course > > Give me a break! In Cart they have a tow truck to come and pick up the car > and take it back to the pits. Remember 3 or 4 races ago in the rain? That > was the worst race in history! I'm not even sure I would call it a race, > more like watch the tow truck go around the track.

- And your point is...?? -- ed_

I thought it was only me? :) "Ed Solheim" wrote:

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| - And your point is...?? | -- | ed_ | jalo wrote: | | > > > Funny how all this become when you think about how NASCAR, CART,

IRL, | > > > Indy-lights and just about any other racing series in the USAmanaged | to | > > > clean the track with 'blowers' or manual labour without stopping the | race. | > > > Even on tracks thats no more than 1/5th the length of Hockenheim:-) | > > | > > Just another example of an area where F1 is WAY behind CART etc.Another | > > area being entertainment of course | > | > Give me a break! In Cart they have a tow truck to come and pick up thecar | > and take it back to the pits. Remember 3 or 4 races ago in the rain?That | > was the worst race in history! I'm not even sure I would call it a race, | > more like watch the tow truck go around the track. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

LOL even in non-simracing matters you still manage to pull the funniest stuff out of you hat. The "american �bermensch" theory by DGF has herby been let out of the bag... remember this folks, you saw it here first ! Mikkel David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7z197.50440$[email hidden]...

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> Becaue no one in the world can beat them. > > BTW, if enough Americans wanted to dominate soccer world wide, they would. > We have a very large population with a mix of different types of athletes > (huge factor) who receive the highest level of training. We aren't better > people, but we do have the best athletes. > > David G Fisher > > "Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:kU097.8868$[email hidden]... > >> I didn't know about this point but why do they call themselves WORLD > > champions ?? > >

What's funny? Everything I said is true. We don't have a large population? 270 million. We don't have a mix of different types of athletes? Ever heard of America being called a "melting pot"? Our athletes don't receive the highest level of training? Does Denmark train their athletes better than thye do in the U.S.? Which on of those points is funny? Come on, be specific. Let's hear exactly why any one of those points is so funny to you. BTW, I don't really give a shit if America has the best or the worst athletes. Go and play GPL. David G Fisher "Mikkel Gram-Hansen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3b64ba2d$0$5949$[email hidden]... > LOL even in non-simracing matters you still manage to pull the funniest > stuff out of you hat. > The "american �bermensch" theory by DGF has herby been let out of thebag...

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> remember this folks, you saw it here first ! > > Mikkel > > > > David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:7z197.50440$[email hidden]... > > Becaue no one in the world can beat them. > > > > BTW, if enough Americans wanted to dominate soccer world wide, they

would. > > We have a very large population with a mix of different types ofathletes > > (huge factor) who receive the highest level of training. We aren'tbetter

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> > people, but we do have the best athletes. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > "Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:kU097.8868$[email hidden]... > > >> I didn't know about this point but why do they call themselves WORLD > > > champions ?? > > > > > >

Oooh. Swimming World Championships. I don't even care how great or crappy U.S. athletes are. For instance, I've said many times that NASCAR drivers aren't anywhere close to the F1 drivers in talent. I don't align myself with any group in order to feel better about myself. Not the country where I live, a religion.........or a sim <cough>. I don't respect anyone who does. Just stating facts about U.S. domination of athletics. David G Fisher "Ben Coleman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3b64bdfd$[email hidden]... > > David G Fisher wrote in message > <7z197.50440$[email hidden]>... > >Becaue no one in the world can beat them. > > > >BTW, if enough Americans wanted to dominate soccer world wide, theywould.

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> >We have a very large population with a mix of different types of athletes > >(huge factor) who receive the highest level of training. We aren't better > >people, but we do have the best athletes. > > > >David G Fisher > > > > That must be why you just dominated the Swimming World Championships > then.... > > Ben > >

Go troll somewhere else please... -- ed_ DGF'ed: > Go and play GPL. > > David G Fisher

Go blow your copy of you know what. David G Fisher "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8r497.1934$e%[email hidden]...

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> Go troll somewhere else please... > > -- > ed_ > > DGF'ed: > > > Go and play GPL. > > > > David G Fisher > > >

What Dave?? The GPL I dont use anymore? Sometimes I'm really wondering if you really are an ass of this magnitude or just plain stupid. Cause if this is "just" acting you deserve an OSCAR.... - shoved up youknowwhere ofcourse!! ed_ DGF'ed again:

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> Go blow your copy of you know what. > > David G Fisher > > "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8r497.1934$e%[email hidden]... > > Go troll somewhere else please... > > > > -- > > ed_ > > > > DGF'ed: > > > > > Go and play GPL. > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > >

N4 was it. I haven't forgotten how boring you are. David G Fisher "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Li597.526$[email hidden]... > What Dave?? > The GPL I dont use anymore? > > Sometimes I'm really wondering if you really are an ass of this magnitudeor

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> just plain stupid. > Cause if this is "just" acting you deserve an OSCAR.... - shoved up > youknowwhere ofcourse!! > > ed_ > > > DGF'ed again: > > > Go blow your copy of you know what. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:8r497.1934$e%[email hidden]... > > > Go troll somewhere else please... > > > > > > -- > > > ed_ > > > > > > DGF'ed: > > > > > > > Go and play GPL. > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Z (zed, not zee)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sat, 28 Jul 2001 18:34:45 +0100, "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >I agree with that, only the NHL in US sports dont consider the winnersworld > >champions. > > NHL is a Canadian sport, they just let americans play in it. No, it's more like we bought it and import the players. :-) (And it's 'zee'!)

> If you are saying that we europeans are ignoring the US-Sports or that we > don't respect people because they are from North America, than you should > have a look at most of your american people, where a lot of people even > don't know that there is a world outside the US. Not at all true. Anyone who's rented a hotel room or stopped in a 7-11 in the US knows better than that. :-/

Agree that they needed to red flag the race, way too much debris on the track. But did you see how MS turned his car onto the middle of the track? He was headed for the gravel, then turned hard right to end up in the middle of the track. Obviously an attempt to get the race red-flagged which didn't work, because they moved his car fairly quickly. He was lucky that enough debris was spread to bring out the red flags. On another point, why didn't he drive right off the track when he stopped the second time? Very strange thing to do when there's so much grassed area available. Rafe Mc On 29 Jul 2001 12:23:30 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >Of course, there are some(including myself) who are upset that Mika wasn't >given the advantage of a red flag to get in the backup car... :( >Granted, I agree the flag should have been thrown today. But, it should also >have been thrown earlier this season... > >Eldred

>That's just an excuse. It's not as if it's hard to understand that when you >are racing at Hockenheim you need to be concerned with your engine lasting >the whole race. More importantly, I showed in the section you snipped that >he HASN'T been fast compared to Ralf. > >David G Fisher We'll check the stats in 12 months time and see how the speeds compare. 4 years experience makes a hell of a difference. Rafe Mc

On Sun, 29 Jul 2001 20:25:18 +0100, Mark Seery <[email hidden]> wrote: >You forgot to mention Brundle being world sportscar champion and Taking >Senna right down to the wire in his F3 days :-) > >MS > Would you guys please quote only relevant parts of the articles you're replying to? Thanks, uwe -- Uwe Schuerkamp http://www.schuerkamp.de/ uwe.schuerkamp at telemedia.de for direct mail (from: is spambox) PGP Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

The FIA released a statement defending the stopping of the race so they must have had a lot more criticism from others than myself, JV and DC. There was no right or wrong decision but if MS is involved and there is a debatable decision, 95% of the time it will go to MS. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "Mark Seery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qkn97.31911$[email hidden]... > > Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > But if the carbon fibre is razor sharp as the drivers have suggested I > > believe a punture would be caused immediately. > > No Steve. > > Race tyres usually let go in a spectacularly explosive fashion, owing to > extreme stresses and G forces imposed on them. What would usually constitute > a slow puncture in a road tyre would usually end up as a bulge before > blowing out in racing conditions. > > In any case, I'd not fancy a tyre letting me down approaching a corner as > fast as T1 is at Hockenheim.... > > MS > > -- > > > > Steve Levett > > > > ------------------ > > "jalo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:nU097.301155$[email hidden]... > > > > I agree with JV who is one of the real racers unlike Coultard, Brundle > > > etc. > > > > (never heard of Surer) It was safer to use the pace car than to redo > the > > > > most dangerous part of the race. > > > > > > I think you are missing the "main" reason it was stopped. If they had > > > continued, there might have been a few tires blown out from all the > carbon > > > fiber shreads they ran over. It wasn't worth the risk. In my opinion it > > was > > > a good call. A simular thing happened at last years German race, > involving > > > M. Schumacher, they didn't red flag the race then. It was far more > costly > > in > > > terms of the championship last year (to M. Schumacher), than this years > > > race, so the whole idea that it was just for Micheal doesn't make much > > sense > > > to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

From www.formula1.com, an interview with Michelin motorsport director Pierre Duspasquier: "... Q: Were you worried that the race wouldn't be stopped immediately after the accident at the first start? PD: Terrified. The track looked a bit like a battlefield. It would have been dangerous not to stop the race, because you don't want tyres picking up pieces of carbon shrapnel when cars are travelling at 350km/h (217mph). Debris like that tend to be razor-sharp and work their way slowly into a tyre before causing it to puncture. The race director did the sensible thing by showing the red flag. " -Gregor Steve Levett wrote:

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> > But if the carbon fibre is razor sharp as the drivers have suggested I > believe a punture would be caused immediately. > -- > > Steve Levett >

Funny thing: Coulthard and Villeneuve were always the "best friends" of Schumacher. Did you read the interview with the guys from Michelin? If so, no more questions should be ask about the decision to stop the race. -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email hidden]... > David Coultard has said he thinks the race was only stopped because > Schumacher was in front of his home crowd, so there's 2 drivers that agree > with me as well as the officials of CART, IRL and NASCAR who would of all > put the pace car out, even on much more dangerous tracks than Hockenheim. > > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k1r6a$27ulj$[email hidden]... > > Hi Gerry, > > > > > The difference between just losING > > > and being a losER is knowing when you've lost :). > > > > Well said Gerry :-) > > > > Achim > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Ok enough is enough: Do you really think that Schumacher would risk his own life and the life of other drivers to get a race stopped? If you really think this than we don't have to discuss anymore, because this is just ridiculous and stupid. If you have a look at the pictures you'll see that Michael was already in the middle of the street at the start and the cars were flying on both sides around him. Lucaiano Burti wasn't able to see Michael, because of a car in front of him and that's the reason why he hit Michael. After Michael stepped out of the car the first thing he has done was to ask Burti if everything was alright with him. The next thing was that he walked back to the pits, slowly, because he thought the safety car would come out and his race was over and out. As he noticed that the race was stopped he started to run back to his crew to get in the T-Car. It would have been much more dangerous if Michael would have tried to go to the outside or inside. BTW, why are drivers trying to take their car back to the pits even when the engine has blown up and oil is running on the track? In qualify was someone on the track (Jarno Trulli), trying to drive the car back to the pits and he has chosen the best line to do it. Rubens Barrichello wasn't very happy about this and he has shown the driver about his feelings. It seems whenever Michael does something, it's wrong - no matter what he does. Why do you people have such a problem with him? Ayrton Senna wasn't an angel too, but he is known as the best driver in the world. He has done some stupid things in his career too, but it seems in Michael's case everything is stupid. He IS the best driver in the moment and if you have a problem to deal with it I can't help you. You don't have to like him, but is it too much to ask for a little respect? Well, it seems it is. Have you ever talked with Michael Schumacher? Have you ever seen him in private? All I can say that he is a great driver and that I don't know enough of the person Michael Schumacher to make my own judgement about him. Why is it so difficult to respect one of the most succesful drivers in the history of F1. It seems there are the same problems with Jeff Gordon in NASCAR. Are they just too succesful? -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email hidden]... > Agree that they needed to red flag the race, way too much debris on > the track. But did you see how MS turned his car onto the middle of > the track? He was headed for the gravel, then turned hard right to end > up in the middle of the track. Obviously an attempt to get the race > red-flagged which didn't work, because they moved his car fairly > quickly. He was lucky that enough debris was spread to bring out the > red flags. > > On another point, why didn't he drive right off the track when he > stopped the second time? Very strange thing to do when there's so much > grassed area available. > > Rafe Mc > > > On 29 Jul 2001 12:23:30 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > > >Of course, there are some(including myself) who are upset that Mika wasn't > >given the advantage of a red flag to get in the backup car... :( > >Granted, I agree the flag should have been thrown today. But, it should also > >have been thrown earlier this season... > > > >Eldred >

<sigh> I'm not saying Ralf is not one of the quickest/most talented drivers in F1 today. I'm saying it's a mistake to think Montoya isn't on the basis of his results to date. He has admitted having had trouble getting to grips with carbon/carbon brakes, but in the same sentence said he was now ready to take on the best Ralf could throw at him. An attitude highly incompatible with upshifting early, methinks.<g> Then again, a lot of drivers have shown great promise and never really delivered, so you might get your "I told you so"-moment. In this case that doesn't seem very likely to me, but it's possible. Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. "David G Fisher" wrote...

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> > <snip> > That's just an excuse. It's not as if it's hard to > understand that when you are racing at Hockenheim > you need to be concerned with your engine lasting > the whole race. More importantly, I showed in the > section you snipped that he HASN'T been fast > compared to Ralf. > > David G Fisher

So eh... how many American athletes have won the Boston/New York marathon lately? And what about the pole vault, the shot put, etc.... ? Only things Americans excell at are showcase events like the 100m and 4x100m, which is a good strategy as these people intend to make a good living out of a career which, through physical constraints, can't last very long. Therefore they also excell at selling themselves when they win. Not very gracious, not very in tune with the phylosophy behind the sport, but effective. They even got you believing they win everything. Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. "David G Fisher" wrote... > <snip> > Just stating facts about U.S. domination of athletics. > > David G Fisher

IMHO the most dangerous part of the race is braking for the first turn...with all the stalls on the grid this year, we have only had one accident (Burti) and that was because of a car that was slow. Basically, how many injuries have happened on the grid, and how many have happened going into the first turn? -Stuart Becktell

If Senna got perferred treatment, the race at Imola would not have happened, and he would have won a couple more championships... "David Buttery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote on 28 Jul 2001: > > > No, it was DCs fault at Silverstone. Schumacher is a fast driver > > but he is a cheat who gets preferential treatment from Bernie and > > F1. > <snip> > > Bit like Ayrton Senna, really... <vbeg> > > > JV said on ITV that he wanted the race to go on and was surprised > > it was stopped and I'm gonna trust his judgement ahead on any guys > > in here. > > On the other hand, Prof Sid Watkins (who you have to admit knows a > thing or two) talks about this in Autosport this week in relation to > Monza last year, and gives the very clear impression that he very much > dislikes long safety car periods. He also tells us that Bernie told him > that anything over 5 minutes behind the safety car was too long. > > -- > David. (GPLRank handicap -6.57; Monsters of GPL +271.79) > The GPL Scrapyard: *will be down for a while - hackers at 9ug :-( * > "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, > really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

Montoya has had very bad luck this year. Have you ever seen him driving a CART car in the cockpit. IT is total genius, he even got those cars drifting on the oval tracks... -Stuart Becktell "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aG097.50157$[email hidden]... > > "Nick G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Any why do you hate Michael? He is without doubt the most naturallygifted

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> > grand prix driver out there. Damon Hill didn't have it, Mika Hakkinen > > DEFINATELY doesn't have it, but he does. Montoya does. Ralf doesn't. > > Montoya does and Ralf doesn't? The myth lives on. > > R. Schumacher has badly outqualified Montoya in all but three races this > year. Usually by a half second or more. The three in which Montoya did > outqualify Ralf, he did so by less than .2 COMBINED. > > Ralf has three wins, a second, a fourth, and a fifth. Montoya has two > seconds and a fourth. > > Today, according to Ralf, Montoya apparently ignored the warnings that

their > BMW engine needed to be babied a bit in order to help insure a finish.Ralf > drove smart while Montoya drove all out. You saw what happened. Ralf wins > and Montoya retires again. > > They are the same age, and Montoya has been a F1 test driver, along withhis > F3000 and CART experience, He's not a rookie by any means. > > David G Fisher >

OMG, that is so wrong but it is true :) "Gault" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:px697.8567$[email hidden]... > > If you are saying that we europeans are ignoring the US-Sports or thatwe > > don't respect people because they are from North America, than youshould

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> > have a look at most of your american people, where a lot of people even > > don't know that there is a world outside the US. > > Not at all true. Anyone who's rented a hotel room or stopped in a 7-11 in > the US knows better than that. :-/ > >

Two people out of a grid of how many? CART would not have had this problem, there cars are designed so they don't have as many CF parts flying around. IRL is a joke, did you see the indy 500? It took them like 7 accidents to realize that you shouldn't go below the white line in turn 4. They also ask there drivers to slow down if they are leading by too much. NASCAR is also a joke, they red flag the events when they are near the end just for the "racing," or throw a yellow flag at the end because they throw a cup onto the track. What NASCAR or IRL tracks are as dangerous as Hockinheim? CART may have some that are close, but I can't think of htem. -Stuart Becktell "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> David Coultard has said he thinks the race was only stopped because > Schumacher was in front of his home crowd, so there's 2 drivers that agree > with me as well as the officials of CART, IRL and NASCAR who would of all > put the pace car out, even on much more dangerous tracks than Hockenheim. > > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k1r6a$27ulj$[email hidden]... > > Hi Gerry, > > > > > The difference between just losING > > > and being a losER is knowing when you've lost :). > > > > Well said Gerry :-) > > > > Achim > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

"Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k3h7c$f0$[email hidden]... > It seems whenever Michael does something, it's wrong - no matter what he > does. Why do you people have such a problem with him? Ayrton Senna wasn'tan > angel too, but he is known as the best driver in the world. He has donesome

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> stupid things in his career too, but it seems in Michael's case everything > is stupid. > He IS the best driver in the moment and if you have a problem to deal with > it I can't help you. You don't have to like him, but is it too much to ask > for a little respect? Well, it seems it is. > Have you ever talked with Michael Schumacher? Have you ever seen him in > private? All I can say that he is a great driver and that I don't know > enough of the person Michael Schumacher to make my own judgement about

him. > Why is it so difficult to respect one of the most succesful drivers in the > history of F1. It seems there are the same problems with Jeff Gordon in > NASCAR. Are they just too succesful? It looks like people who like Ayrton Senna are very young and didn't actualy watched F1 when Senna began. F1 was a first class noble sport. Drivers liked to think about themselfs as gentelmens, and acted like that. Then came Senna. He was most arrogant driver F1 has ever seen. Nobody liked him. It was allways dangerous to drive in front of him. He simply ran into everybody. When he cuoldn't overtake with his driving ability, and that was most of the time, he used brute force. The rael drivers couldn't stand it, and were disgusted with that. The real drivers used driving bravoures like MS is doing today. But in those days young drivers stayed away if they hadn't experience to answer to that. Didn't just run into good drivers back like thay run into MS's back today. BTW, Senna cannot be the best driver in the world if he is less succesful than MS, but drove in better cars than MS is driveing today. It simply isn't logical. BTW (2), Senna had only 41 wins out of 65 poles. Second number usualy tells you about cars ability. Diference between second and first tells you about drivers ability. It is -24, and by far the worst of all drivers. MS have 50 wins out of 40 poles. That's +10. BTW (3), Senna realy is the best driver in rain.

"Stuart Becktell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:V2d97.155969$[email hidden]... > Montoya has had very bad luck this year. Have you ever seen him driving a > CART car in the cockpit. IT is total genius, he even got those carsdrifting > on the oval tracks... > -Stuart Becktell Teams usualy use second car for experimentation. When motor is in development, like BMW is todey, second car usualy has a lot of blow ups and bad performances.

"Stuart Becktell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20d97.155959$[email hidden]... > If Senna got perferred treatment, the race at Imola would not havehappened, > and he would have won a couple more championships... Not in Ferrari. Only in some superior car. That's how he won all of his championships.

"Stuart Becktell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Ifd97.156013$[email hidden]... >NASCAR is also a > joke, they red flag the events when they are near the end just for the > "racing," Don't put me wrong but what's wrong with racing. >What NASCAR or IRL tracks are as dangerous as Hockinheim? CART > may have some that are close, but I can't think of htem. > -Stuart Becktell In some other post you said that first turn is most dangerous. In oval racing whole race is actualy F1's first turn.

> I agree with you here, it was too dangerous to move off his line. He hadto > hild his line and hope others got a good view of him going slowly. It looked like to me, that he lost his drive after he made his start. It looked like he was going to try to block out Mika when he lost his drive. Thats what it looked like from my point of view. I'll watch it again when they replay it tonight.

> Montoya has had very bad luck this year. Have you ever seen him driving a > CART car in the cockpit. IT is total genius, he even got those carsdrifting > on the oval tracks... He is reckless then! Those cars do not work well going sideways. It's kind of funny reading all the press. It seams that the Williams guy's are praising Ralf, while the BMW guy's are defending JPM. It's almost like reading about 2 different teams.

at the same time mixing "old-old" Germany (Nazi), "old" Germany (East) and "new" China on the athletes superiority... That was 1 hell of a message... Besides that I still love F1RC and I enjoy playing it a lot. "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message news: 7z197.50440$[email hidden]...

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> Becaue no one in the world can beat them. > > BTW, if enough Americans wanted to dominate soccer world wide, they would. > We have a very large population with a mix of different types of athletes > (huge factor) who receive the highest level of training. We aren't better > people, but we do have the best athletes. > > David G Fisher > > "Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:kU097.8868$[email hidden]... > >> I didn't know about this point but why do they call themselves WORLD > > champions ?? > > >

What I meant is that a lot of people are saying that Senna was the best driver in the world. I personally think it's hard to compare, because you always need a good car to have success. I can't say who the best driver is, but one thing is fact: If Michael continues with racing for some more years (he has signed a contract with Ferrari til 2004) he will be on top nearly every statistic and I'm sure we will have than a second driver who has won the championship five times or even more. -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:9k3o18$kaj$[email hidden]... > > "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k3h7c$f0$[email hidden]... > > > It seems whenever Michael does something, it's wrong - no matter what he > > does. Why do you people have such a problem with him? Ayrton Senna wasn't > an > > angel too, but he is known as the best driver in the world. He has done > some > > stupid things in his career too, but it seems in Michael's case everything > > is stupid. > > He IS the best driver in the moment and if you have a problem to deal with > > it I can't help you. You don't have to like him, but is it too much to ask > > for a little respect? Well, it seems it is. > > Have you ever talked with Michael Schumacher? Have you ever seen him in > > private? All I can say that he is a great driver and that I don't know > > enough of the person Michael Schumacher to make my own judgement about > him. > > Why is it so difficult to respect one of the most succesful drivers in the > > history of F1. It seems there are the same problems with Jeff Gordon in > > NASCAR. Are they just too succesful? > > > It looks like people who like Ayrton Senna are very young and didn't > actualy watched F1 when Senna began. F1 was a first class noble sport. > Drivers liked to think about themselfs as gentelmens, and acted like that. > Then came Senna. He was most arrogant driver F1 has ever seen. Nobody > liked him. It was allways dangerous to drive in front of him. He simply ran > into everybody. When he cuoldn't overtake with his driving ability, and that > was most of the time, he used brute force. The rael drivers couldn't stand > it, and were disgusted with that. The real drivers used driving bravoures > like MS is doing today. But in those days young drivers stayed away if they > hadn't experience to answer to that. Didn't just run into good drivers back > like thay run into MS's back today. > BTW, Senna cannot be the best driver in the world if he is less > succesful than MS, but drove in better cars than MS is driveing today. It > simply isn't logical. > BTW (2), Senna had only 41 wins out of 65 poles. Second number > usualy tells you about cars ability. Diference between second and first > tells you about drivers ability. It is -24, and by far the worst of all > drivers. MS have 50 wins out of 40 poles. That's +10. > BTW (3), Senna realy is the best driver in rain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

It seems that we don't have always different opinions.:-) Well, I would say that it is the most dangerous situation when car stands still after the start or the car can't get up to full speed. You sit doen in your car and all you can do is to wait what happens behind you. You just can pray that everyone finds a way around your car. I guess you can ask Mika about this too. -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email hidden]... > I agree with you here, it was too dangerous to move off his line. He had to > hild his line and hope others got a good view of him going slowly. > > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k3h7c$f0$[email hidden]... > > Ok enough is enough: Do you really think that Schumacher would risk his > own > > life and the life of other drivers to get a race stopped? If you really > > think this than we don't have to discuss anymore, because this is just > > ridiculous and stupid. > > > > If you have a look at the pictures you'll see that Michael was already in > > the middle of the street at the start and the cars were flying on both > sides > > around him. Lucaiano Burti wasn't able to see Michael, because of a car in > > front of him and that's the reason why he hit Michael. After Michael > stepped > > out of the car the first thing he has done was to ask Burti if everything > > was alright with him. The next thing was that he walked back to the pits, > > slowly, because he thought the safety car would come out and his race was > > over and out. As he noticed that the race was stopped he started to run > back > > to his crew to get in the T-Car. > > > > It would have been much more dangerous if Michael would have tried to go > to > > the outside or inside. BTW, why are drivers trying to take their car back > to > > the pits even when the engine has blown up and oil is running on the > track? > > In qualify was someone on the track (Jarno Trulli), trying to drive the > car > > back to the pits and he has chosen the best line to do it. Rubens > > Barrichello wasn't very happy about this and he has shown the driver about > > his feelings. > > > > It seems whenever Michael does something, it's wrong - no matter what he > > does. Why do you people have such a problem with him? Ayrton Senna wasn't > an > > angel too, but he is known as the best driver in the world. He has done > some > > stupid things in his career too, but it seems in Michael's case everything > > is stupid. > > He IS the best driver in the moment and if you have a problem to deal with > > it I can't help you. You don't have to like him, but is it too much to ask > > for a little respect? Well, it seems it is. > > Have you ever talked with Michael Schumacher? Have you ever seen him in > > private? All I can say that he is a great driver and that I don't know > > enough of the person Michael Schumacher to make my own judgement about > him. > > Why is it so difficult to respect one of the most succesful drivers in the > > history of F1. It seems there are the same problems with Jeff Gordon in > > NASCAR. Are they just too succesful? > > > > > > -- > > Have several nice days !!! > > > > > > Michael Heymanns > > Team-Manager SRG > > > > IWSC Champion 2000 > > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > > TPTCC Champion 1999 > > TPTCC Champion 2000 > > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > > > www.srg-group.de > > www.teamsrg.de > > www.tptcc.de > > > > 1&1 Profiseller > > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > > "Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Agree that they needed to red flag the race, way too much debris on > > > the track. But did you see how MS turned his car onto the middle of > > > the track? He was headed for the gravel, then turned hard right to end > > > up in the middle of the track. Obviously an attempt to get the race > > > red-flagged which didn't work, because they moved his car fairly > > > quickly. He was lucky that enough debris was spread to bring out the > > > red flags. > > > > > > On another point, why didn't he drive right off the track when he > > > stopped the second time? Very strange thing to do when there's so much > > > grassed area available. > > > > > > Rafe Mc > > > > > > > > > On 29 Jul 2001 12:23:30 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > > > > > > >Of course, there are some(including myself) who are upset that Mika > > wasn't > > > >given the advantage of a red flag to get in the backup car... :( > > > >Granted, I agree the flag should have been thrown today. But, it > should > > also > > > >have been thrown earlier this season... > > > > > > > >Eldred > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Oh and you are right: It was always dangerous to drive in front of Senna: Ask Nigel Mansell about it or Alain Prost. As Mario has written before: If you have seen his first races in F1 in the Toleman-Hart and especially in the more competitive Lotus-Honda you just have to say that Ayrton has made stupid things at the start of his career and during his first years and that he was very aggressive in his kind of driving - too aggressive for a lot of people. But Ayrton is a hero and Michael is the bad boy. BTW, Heidfeld made a superb start at Hockenheim in his Sauber and he has passed one of the McLaren's, but unfortunatly foor him the race was stopped. After the restart he was crashed out by Pedro de la Rosa who was much too late on the brakes. Why wasn't the race stopped after that aciident? I mean: Heidfeld is also a german. Oh I see, his name is not Schumacher.:-)))) And one more thing: I think the whole world-championship is a total desaster after Eddie Jordan has fired HHF - my favourite driver. No, I do not say that he is the best driver, he is just the driver I like the most. -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:9k3o18$kaj$[email hidden]... > > "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k3h7c$f0$[email hidden]... > > > It seems whenever Michael does something, it's wrong - no matter what he > > does. Why do you people have such a problem with him? Ayrton Senna wasn't > an > > angel too, but he is known as the best driver in the world. He has done > some > > stupid things in his career too, but it seems in Michael's case everything > > is stupid. > > He IS the best driver in the moment and if you have a problem to deal with > > it I can't help you. You don't have to like him, but is it too much to ask > > for a little respect? Well, it seems it is. > > Have you ever talked with Michael Schumacher? Have you ever seen him in > > private? All I can say that he is a great driver and that I don't know > > enough of the person Michael Schumacher to make my own judgement about > him. > > Why is it so difficult to respect one of the most succesful drivers in the > > history of F1. It seems there are the same problems with Jeff Gordon in > > NASCAR. Are they just too succesful? > > > It looks like people who like Ayrton Senna are very young and didn't > actualy watched F1 when Senna began. F1 was a first class noble sport. > Drivers liked to think about themselfs as gentelmens, and acted like that. > Then came Senna. He was most arrogant driver F1 has ever seen. Nobody > liked him. It was allways dangerous to drive in front of him. He simply ran > into everybody. When he cuoldn't overtake with his driving ability, and that > was most of the time, he used brute force. The rael drivers couldn't stand > it, and were disgusted with that. The real drivers used driving bravoures > like MS is doing today. But in those days young drivers stayed away if they > hadn't experience to answer to that. Didn't just run into good drivers back > like thay run into MS's back today. > BTW, Senna cannot be the best driver in the world if he is less > succesful than MS, but drove in better cars than MS is driveing today. It > simply isn't logical. > BTW (2), Senna had only 41 wins out of 65 poles. Second number > usualy tells you about cars ability. Diference between second and first > tells you about drivers ability. It is -24, and by far the worst of all > drivers. MS have 50 wins out of 40 poles. That's +10. > BTW (3), Senna realy is the best driver in rain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 05:42:42 GMT, "Gault" <[email hidden]> wrote: >No, it's more like we bought it and import the players. :-) > >(And it's 'zee'!) > Next you'll be telling me americans invented basketball.

>> > NHL is a Canadian sport, they just let americans play in it. >> > >No, it's more like we bought it and import the players. :-) > > Next you'll be telling me americans invented basketball. Truth hurts, doesn't it? Canada- the land of fewer and fewer NHL teams. A shame imo.

David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%4397.50937$[email hidden]... > What's funny? Everything I said is true. > > We don't have a large population? 270 million. >Hey smarty-pants. How many people does China have ? Squillions more than the US, and they love football ! Are they dominating ? I would also expect their athletes are trained to an exceptional limit and what are they good at ? Table tennis and diving.

Hi Steve, quoting Coulthard and Villeneuve as arguments against a restart is about the same as using the fact that Schumi and Burti were in favour of a restart as an argument _for_ a restart ;-) Achim "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > David Coultard has said he thinks the race was only stopped because > Schumacher was in front of his home crowd, so there's 2 drivers that agree > with me as well as the officials of CART, IRL and NASCAR who would of all > put the pace car out, even on much more dangerous tracks than Hockenheim.

Watching a NASCAR (and CART) is far superior as a spectacle than F1 where you usually get more overtaking in 1 race than you do in a whole F1 season. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "Stuart Becktell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:A2C97.163301$[email hidden]... > The racing in NASCAR sucks, they don't do anything, then just take someone > out. Oval racing is not really F1's first turn, they all basically stay put > in the first turn, they do pass more, but it is not like having a car from > 8th on the grid get to 2nd... > > "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k3phf$d2e$[email hidden]... > > > > "Stuart Becktell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:Ifd97.156013$[email hidden]... > > >NASCAR is also a > > > joke, they red flag the events when they are near the end just for the > > > "racing," > > > > Don't put me wrong but what's wrong with racing. > > > > >What NASCAR or IRL tracks are as dangerous as Hockinheim? CART > > > may have some that are close, but I can't think of htem. > > > -Stuart Becktell > > > > In some other post you said that first turn is most dangerous. In > > oval racing whole race is actualy F1's first turn. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > So eh... how many American athletes have > > And what about the pole vault, the shot put, etc.... ? So you don't consider winning a combined 2 Golds, 2 Silvers, a Bronze and a fourth at those events (pole vault, shot put) in Sydney to be "dominating"? ;-) Brian McLeaney

CART do no go below 200 at Michigan (I think the ave lap speed is 220 or so), I'm not to sure about the other tracks. At New Hampshire 2 NACSAR drivers were killed and this is only a mid speed track. Cars normally impact a wall at a much higher angle than they do in F1 resulting in 100+G crashes. It doesn't take a genious to figure that its more dangerous to leave a track and hit a wall than it is if you leave a track go through a gravel trap then go into a tyre wall. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "Stuart Becktell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:b1C97.163299$[email hidden]... > What is so bad about Michigan, Indy, California and Charlotte? The cars go, > on average, 150 in the turns, going up the track you lose at least 30 mph, > and the cars can easily sastain a 120 MPH hit. Runoff areas are proven that > they work great, or not at all. If the car gets airborne at all, it is in > the wall at a very high speed. > -Stuart Becktell > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Talladega, Michigan, Indy, Daytona, California, Charlotte. Do you want me > to > > go on? Nearly all ovals are more dangerous than Hockenheim because a > mistake > > means hitting a wall at 150-230 mph whereas F1 usually has lots of run off > > areas. > > > > -- > > > > Steve Levett > > > > ------------------ > > "Stuart Becktell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:Ifd97.156013$[email hidden]... > > > Two people out of a grid of how many? CART would not have had this > > problem, > > > there cars are designed so they don't have as many CF parts flying > around. > > > IRL is a joke, did you see the indy 500? It took them like 7 accidents > to > > > realize that you shouldn't go below the white line in turn 4. They also > > ask > > > there drivers to slow down if they are leading by too much. NASCAR is > also > > a > > > joke, they red flag the events when they are near the end just for the > > > "racing," or throw a yellow flag at the end because they throw a cup > onto > > > the track. What NASCAR or IRL tracks are as dangerous as Hockinheim? > CART > > > may have some that are close, but I can't think of htem. > > > -Stuart Becktell > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > David Coultard has said he thinks the race was only stopped because > > > > Schumacher was in front of his home crowd, so there's 2 drivers that > > agree > > > > with me as well as the officials of CART, IRL and NASCAR who would of > > all > > > > put the pace car out, even on much more dangerous tracks than > > Hockenheim. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > > > > ------------------ > > > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:9k1r6a$27ulj$[email hidden]... > > > > > Hi Gerry, > > > > > > > > > > > The difference between just losING > > > > > > and being a losER is knowing when you've lost :). > > > > > > > > > > Well said Gerry :-) > > > > > > > > > > Achim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

You can compare. 1) Benetton was nothing before MS came 2) Benneton is nothing after MS left 3) Ferrari was nothing before MS came Short: every middleclass team with MS is good. 1) Damon Hill was nothing before and after Williams 2) Nigel Mansell was nothing before and after Williams 3) Jacques Villeneuve was nothing before and after Williams 4) Mika Hakkinen was nothing before McLaren Short: in a top team even a test driver can became world chanpion BTW, you could count more driver errors in one race of Ayrton Senna then in MS's (or Lauda's - two top drivers I had privilege to watch) whole career. "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k41ub$4id$[email hidden]... > What I meant is that a lot of people are saying that Senna was the best > driver in the world. I personally think it's hard to compare, because you > always need a good car to have success.

On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 17:05:08 GMT, "Gault" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Truth hurts, doesn't it? Canada- the land of fewer and fewer NHL teams. A >shame imo. > Yea, truth is that basketball is also a canadian game. :-)

Mario Petrinovic wrote: > 2) Nigel Mansell was nothing before and after Williams Oh dear!... I see we didn't use all of Mr Brain while compiling our list, did you! Gerry

Steve Levett wrote: > I agree with JV who is one of the real racers unlike Coultard, Brundle etc. > (never heard of Surer) It was safer to use the pace car than to redo the > most dangerous part of the race. How about the 1997 Brazilian Grand Prix when Jacques crashed at the first turn and they red-flagged the start, even though his car was completely off the track? Was that the right decision? In last year's Austrian Grand Prix when Schumacher was shunted off the track on the first lap in a similar situation, they didn't red-flag it (nor at last year's Hockenheim race). Yes, it is sometimes inconsistent, but to say that these decisions are just for the benefit of Schumacher is just plain silly and can be easily refuted by looking at the record. Given the huge amount of razor-sharp carbon fibre debris that was spread all over the track, this was clearly the right call. Plus, I seriously doubt that the FIA wants to see the championship wrapped up by the Hungarian Grand Prix. That would certainly not help them in attracting TV viewers. But, hey, after every single race, the anti-Schumacher contingent comes out of the woodwork to put some spin on the race to further their obsession. Dave Ewing > ---- > ***************************************************** > David A. Ewing > Xilinx Boulder [email hidden] > *****************************************************

"Z (zed, not zee)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 17:05:08 GMT, "Gault" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >Truth hurts, doesn't it? Canada- the land of fewer and fewer NHL teams.A > >shame imo. > > > > Yea, truth is that basketball is also a canadian game. :-) Wish you guys had kept it. I'm far more grateful for your hockey exports. :-)

Ooops, bad examples I guess... ;-) I *naturally* assumed those fields were still being dominated by former Soviet countries... didn't check, my mistake. You did conveniently snip the marathons (which I did check as they were easy to find), Boston not since 83 and New York not since '88 (and even in '87 the guy had a funny name to be representing New Mexico ;-)) Jan. =--- "Brian McLeaney" wrote... > <snip> > So you don't consider winning a combined 2 Golds, 2 > Silvers, a Bronze and a fourth at those events (pole > vault, shot put) in Sydney to be "dominating"? ;-) > > Brian McLeaney

I agree, the restart was necessary. If the problem can be cleared in one or two laps, ok, but that crash was big and was going to take a long time to clean up. JV was being silly when he said what he said. F1 cars are not designed to run behind a pace car (and their tyres definitly are not). They lose pressure which can lead to big problems on the restart (some theories on Senna's crash point blame to the long pace car period prior to the restart). Not to mention the fact that they would have restarted not knowing if they had picked up punctures whilst going through the debris (which again could have led to a big crash). Charlie made the right decision, and people who think Schumacher gets favoured by FIA are just conspiracy theorists and talking rubbish. Personally I don't like him very much (Hill fan, and cannot forgive him for Adelaide 94), but I do rate him. Thats my two pence worth. "Nick G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > um, didn't you see the race? there was debris all over the track - ultra > sharp carbon fibre. if the marshalls had tried to clear it they would have > had to be appearing on track for at least the first five laps, sweeping it > all off. That is too dangerous. Charlie Whiting had a choice, did he think > the race could continue. He said yes, but as he saw how much the cars were > trying to avoid debris, he decided it wasn't worth the risk and stoppedthe

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> race. This gives the teams time to inspect the tyres for the 20min time > between restarts, and check over the cars. > > Any why do you hate Michael? He is without doubt the most naturally gifted > grand prix driver out there. Damon Hill didn't have it, Mika Hakkinen > DEFINATELY doesn't have it, but he does. Montoya does. Ralf doesn't. > Coulthard doesn't. Barrichello doesn't. Anybody who saw him in testing at > Maranello back in '98 will justify that. Lap after lap going as sideways

as > possible. The shots are amazing. > > Don't be such a fool. I bet you think the first corner incident at > Silverstone was Trulli's fault don't you? Despite the video evidence - > especially from Coulthards roll bar camera, which shows Trulli wasactually > in front (by a few inches) of DC going into Copse, but as DC moved over,he > braked, and that is why he was behind DC AT THE POINT OF IMPACT. > > Please don't try to look knowledgable, when all you are trying to do istake > the piss out of the King of F1. > >

And as I pointed out, we have a mix of different types of athletes due to being a country of different ethnic backgrounds, and China doesn't. David G Fisher "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k46ic$2hgns$[email hidden]...

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> > David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:%4397.50937$[email hidden]... > > What's funny? Everything I said is true. > > > > We don't have a large population? 270 million. > > > Hey smarty-pants. How many people does China have ? Squillions more than

the > US, and they love football ! Are they dominating ? I would also expecttheir > athletes are trained to an exceptional limit and what are they good at ? > Table tennis and diving. > >

Well, who does then? -- Steve Levett ------------------ "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9JD97.18965$[email hidden]... > >"Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Agreed, MS + best car = boring championship fight > > > He doesn't have the best car this year. Well not anymore. > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.ymenard.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

> 2) Nigel Mansell was nothing before and after Williams I was with you until that silly remark. Mansell was the best British driver I've ever seen. He had B A L L S !!

"Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > No, it wouldn't have been stopped for Ralf, just Michael. :) Ok, guy's. The championship is over. It was over before the German GP. It was over the moment Coulthard crashed out of the British GP. It doesn't really matter that they restarted the race. Would David have won? No. He probably would not have even been in the top 3. So it makes little difference. I can see all the Schumacher bashing if it had actually mattered. They didn't red flag the German GP last year, why would they red flag this years, and not last years if it had been some kind of Schumacher conspiracy? Also, did you guy's see the cars driving over all the parts they were doing maybe 40 Mph, and this was before the red flag, and saftey car came out. You can't tell me F1 drivers would slow that much, if there was no risk. I did not see one car fly through that. I didn't see David fly through all that stuff, to take the lead. No he followed the car in front of him.

> I'm not so sure an F1 car can do a 5 minute lap without overheating. Sure it can, I do it all the time in my Ferrari (F1 2KCS). :-)

Ferarri has a much better overal car then Williams, it's just that the BMW has lots of power and that shows at Hockenheim and perhaps Monza but at other track the Ferarri is far superior. I doubt anyone else here would agree with your statement there. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:YuE97.19273$[email hidden]... > >"Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Well, who does then? > > > BMW has a better car if you take both of them equally (not considering the > problems each face with mechanical stuff). > > imho. > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.ymenard.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

But "redTed" have you ever seen how those little suckers run over there? OMG and those tini-weenie feetzies? wow hahaha Sorry as the Subject states: "Sorry I couldn't resist !!!" "redTed" wrote: | Hey smarty-pants. How many people does China have ? Squillions more thanthe | US, and they love football ! Are they dominating ? I would also expecttheir | athletes are trained to an exceptional limit and what are they good at ? | Table tennis and diving. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

"Z (zed, not zee)" would ya take the 76ers & Pat Croce back please? They stink around here.. Peeeee Uuuuu :( "Z (zed, not zee)" wrote: | Yea, truth is that basketball is also a canadian game. :-) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

"JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%3F97.14652$[email hidden]... > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3b66d530$[email hidden]... > > Watching a NASCAR (and CART) is far superior as a spectacle than F1where

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> > you usually get more overtaking in 1 race than you do in a whole F1 > season. > > > > -- > > > > Steve Levett > > I watched a CART round (Canada- Molson) and saw a bunch of yahoos punting > each other off the road in second rate machinery. > I watched the Daytona 400 NASCAR, and watched 40 or so anonymous 3rd rate > saloon cars trundling round

It's pretty ovious you know nothing about oval racing and youd probably say you find it boring watching cars go round in circles, (actual speeds may be high, but relative speeds > are almost identical- snorefest), Close relative speeds means the cars are racing closely, different relative speeds means a car will shoot of into the distance means a snorefest a la F1 sure they didn't stay in the same order, > big deal, I can watch cars overtake all day long on the M1 motorway,doesn't > make it exciting. There are much closer finishes in CART and NASCAR, usually under a couple of seconds. Most people I know watch the 1st corner in F1 and then do some work, surf the net etc and have the TV on in the backround. > I watched the F1 Hockenheim race, and saw drama, excitement, intrigue, > *real* racing, beautiful 1st rate racing machines... > The battle between the the two Bennettons and Alesi was great to watch,but > oh no, nobody succeeded in a pass, so it must have been boring. Whenpasses > were made, it was done with skill and sheer balls, not just catching a > draft, or barging the other guy out of the way (NASCAR, CART respectively) So you think TOCA 5 years ago was boring? > I'll take boring over crass any day in that case. > I'll take turbo charged, non traction controlled cars slipping and sliding over boring, just floor it and steer F1 cars anyday. Steve Levett -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

oh yeah, that's why they only have like 5 different languages... Just because they are the same "colour" doesn't mean they have the same ethnic background... There can be as much difference between a Manchu from the north and a Cantonese from the south as between an american from NY and a frenchman from Marseille (and GOD knows I have nothing to do with New-Yorkers) "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message news: qJi97.52557$[email hidden]...

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> And as I pointed out, we have a mix of different types of athletes due to > being a country of different ethnic backgrounds, and China doesn't. > > David G Fisher > > "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k46ic$2hgns$[email hidden]... > > > > David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:%4397.50937$[email hidden]... > > > What's funny? Everything I said is true. > > > > > > We don't have a large population? 270 million. > > > > > Hey smarty-pants. How many people does China have ? Squillions more than > the > > US, and they love football ! Are they dominating ? I would also expect > their > > athletes are trained to an exceptional limit and what are they good at ? > > Table tennis and diving. > > > > > >

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aG097.50157$[email hidden]...

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> > "Nick G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > R. Schumacher has badly outqualified Montoya in all but three races this > year. Usually by a half second or more. The three in which Montoya did > outqualify Ralf, he did so by less than .2 COMBINED.

Montoya has been using a different tyre compound to Ralf, which has affected qualifying performance. > Today, according to Ralf, Montoya apparently ignored the warnings thattheir > BMW engine needed to be babied a bit in order to help insure a finish.Ralf > drove smart while Montoya drove all out. You saw what happened. Ralf wins > and Montoya retires again. Sitting for 30 seconds in a pitstop with the car boiling over as every second passed by has nothing to do with it, of course... > > They are the same age, and Montoya has been a F1 test driver, along withhis > F3000 and CART experience, He's not a rookie by any means. > > David G Fisher > Not disagreeing with the fact that JPM needs to improve, just some facts I think are relevant to the discussion. cheers John

In article <kU097.8868$[email hidden]>, Txl <[email hidden]> writes

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> >> >> By all means, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant. If >> you would bother to do some research on the subject, you would know >> WHY it is called the World Series. Originally, the end-of-season >> baseball championship was sponsored by a newspaper, the now defunct >> "New York World". Hence, the name "World Series". As for basketball > >I didn't know about this point but why do they call themselves WORLD >champions ?? > >I disagree with you about the south american football teams, the NATIONAL >teams are on par with "us" europeans but the clubs are quite below because >all the best players are over here mostly for financial reasons but >anyway... > >Let's take the Brazilian team, I don't think many players are actually >playing in the brazilian championship (or columbian, or argentinian....) >

Guess you've forgotten Man Utd's and other Euro club's little visit last year for the World Club Championship. Mmm, wonder which club won? -- Peter Ives Remove ALL_STRESS before replying If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

"Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > But if the carbon fibre is razor sharp as the drivers have suggested I > believe a punture would be caused immediately. > -- > > Steve Levett >

Oh well, as long as we've got an *expert* on the newsgroup case closed then! Or didn't the Michelin statement register anything with you? But JV knows more about tyres than the people who make them, of course. cheers John

Hey "Txl" U watch it now, talking about "New-Yorkers!" I worked there for over 18years & many of my best laps were done on the streets of Manhattan! :) "Txl" wrote: | Marseille (and GOD knows I have nothing to do with New-Yorkers) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

> > What's your next conspiracy theory ? Montoya was deliberately held up on > his > > own pit stop so that Ralf could get past and win ? Give it a rest. > > You noticed that too ??? I read somewhere that the fuel rig did actually fill the tank, and that the car had almost twice as much fuel when he left the pits, makes me wonder if there is something to that.

"Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Mario Petrinovic wrote: > > > 2) Nigel Mansell was nothing before and after Williams > > Oh dear!... I see we didn't use all of Mr Brain while compiling our > list, did you! > > Gerry

damn, you beat me to it... :o) cheers John

"jalo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:mPk97.316593$[email hidden]... > Also, did you guy's see the cars driving over all the parts they weredoing > maybe 40 Mph, and this was before the red flag, and saftey car came out.You > can't tell me F1 drivers would slow that much, if there was no risk. I did > not see one car fly through that. I didn't see David fly through all that > stuff, to take the lead. No he followed the car in front of him. There were a decent handful of cars that I noticed sat on the grid getting wheels (tyres) changed also. Yet more evidence that the cautious approach due to the risk of carbon fibre in the tyres was the correct approach. John

"JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PoG97.15234$[email hidden]...

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> > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3b671430$[email hidden]... > > > > "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > It's pretty ovious you know nothing about oval racing and youd probably > say > > you find it boring watching cars go round in circles, > > > > I prefer short ovals, it's true. I know a little more than "nothing"

about > ovals. What, are you the only one entitled to an opinion? Usually people who slate oval racing do not understand it. > > (actual speeds may be high, but relative speeds > > > are almost identical- snorefest), > > > > Close relative speeds means the cars are racing closely, different > relative > > speeds means a car will shoot of into the distance means a snorefest ala > F1 > > > > On the superspeedways, it looks like friday night on the motorway. Mypoint > about F1 is not that the cars are different in performance, but that there > is more variation in speeds over the length of the lap, watchingBarricello > go round the outside of Coulthard was a lot more interesting to me, than > some shmoe pulling out of the line and breezing ahead for a lap. >That was a very good move but unfortunately it's all too rare in F1, there was a race this season where there was not a single pass shown on TV (dont ask me to name the track as I've forgotton) and just wait for the most boring race of all at Hungary. It doesnt take a genious to figure F1 cars cant overtake because they cant follow other cars through mid and high speed corners closely, there is to much reliance on aerodynamic grip (even more so now with grooved tyres). Bring back slicks and make the wings smaller to get back to closer racing. Ban driving aids as well, make them have smaller fuel tanks so they have to stop 3 times a race so they will have to all pit at the same time, get rid of the chicanes, redesign tracks (more like Monza, Spa and less like Hungaroring, Magny Cours) oh yeah, and throw in a turbo. > > sure they didn't stay in the same order, > > > big deal, I can watch cars overtake all day long on the M1 motorway, > > doesn't > > > make it exciting. > > > > There are much closer finishes in CART and NASCAR, usually under acouple

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> of > > seconds. Most people I know watch the 1st corner in F1 and then do some > > work, surf the net etc and have the TV on in the backround. > > > > And in the "good old days" of Formula one, the leader would stop for a cup > of tea and still have time to win the race, after borrowing his 2nd placed > team mate's car to finish the race with. Not a dig at US racing, more the > other people in the topic bemoaning "modern" F1. > > > > So you think TOCA 5 years ago was boring? > > > > compared to BTCC 10 years ago, yes.

The pre-wing racing was unmissable even though most peoplw would consider it a low level of raing. The same thing has happend to F1, its getting more boring as each year passes > > > I'll take boring over crass any day in that case. > > > > > > > > > > > I'll take turbo charged, non traction controlled cars slipping andsliding > > over boring, just floor it and steer F1 cars anyday. Steve Levett -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

"jalo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:mPk97.316593$[email hidden]... > Also, did you guy's see the cars driving over all the parts they weredoing > maybe 40 Mph, and this was before the red flag, and saftey car came out.You > can't tell me F1 drivers would slow that much, if there was no risk. I did > not see one car fly through that. I didn't see David fly through all that > stuff, to take the lead. No he followed the car in front of him. > > Actually I think they were under yellows then, so overtaking was banned, and Juan Pablo in front was dictating the maximum speed of the entire pack.

"Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Mario Petrinovic wrote: > > > 2) Nigel Mansell was nothing before and after Williams > > Oh dear!... I see we didn't use all of Mr Brain while compiling our > list, did you! > > Gerry

Example 1: Nigel Mansell a) without Williams : 1980 > F2 12th 1981-84 NM is in Lotus-Ford, teammate to Elio de Angelis 1981>Nigel Mansell 14th 8 points Elio de Angelis 8th 14 points 1982>Nigel Mansell 14th 7 points Elio de Angelis 9th 23 points 1983>Nigel Mansell 12-13th 10 points Elio de Angelis 8th 15 points 1984>Lotus gets Renault engine and Elio de Angelis is much faster, but not NM Nigel Mansell 9-10th 13 points Elio de Angelis 3rd 34 points 1989>Ferrari Nigel Mansell 4th 38 points Gerhard Berger 7th 21 points 1990>Ferrari Nigel Mansell 5th 37 points Alain Prost 2nd 73 points I don't see world champion here. But look further b) with Williams : 1985-87 Honda engine ( from end of 85 that was the most powerfull combination ) 1985>Nigel Mansell 6th 31 points Keke Rosberg 3rd 40 points 1986>Frank Williams wonts English champion but NM didn't succeed Nigel Mansell 2nd 72 points Nelson Piquet 3rd 69 points 1987>Frank Williams alows NP more freedom this time Nigel Mansell 2nd 61 points Nelson Piquet Champ 76 points (his only championship in a superior car-of 3 ) 1988>Williams lost Honda engine and gets Judd Nigel Mansell 9-10th 12 points Riccardo Patrese 11th 8 points 1991-92 Frank Williams had another go with NM 1991>Williams-Renault Nigel Mansell 2nd 72 points Riccardo Patrese 3rd 53 points 1992>Williams-Renault Nigel Mansell Champ 108 points Riccardo Patrese 2nd 56 points What a diferent picture. In 6 years 3 times 2nd and one championship. c) after Williams - NM disappears from F1

David G Fisher wrote:

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> > What's funny? Everything I said is true. > > We don't have a large population? 270 million. > > We don't have a mix of different types of athletes? Ever heard of America > being called a "melting pot"? > > Our athletes don't receive the highest level of training? Does Denmark train > their athletes better than thye do in the U.S.?

Check out the medal distribution of recent olympics or any other truly world wide sport event. I don't see a trend justifying your claim... > > Go and play GPL. Man, those black helicopters are annoying, aren't they? ;) -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now?

So you'd agree all one make racing is sad to watch? -- Steve Levett ------------------ "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VZH97.56625$[email hidden]... > No. The artifically close racing of NASCAR is what's sad to watch. > > David G Fisher > > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Isn't it sad he has to overdrive that badly just to be competitive for the > > minor places, provided the fast cars have dropped out ? > > > > Jan. > > =--- > > "David G Fisher" wrote... > > > <snip> > > > You didn't catch Alesi going through one of the chicanes > > > on the second to last lap at Hockenheim, did you? It almost > > > looked like he was moving at 2x speed because he was > > > whipping the wheel back and forth so quickly. It was > > > actually kind of funny looking. > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Michael Heymanns wrote: > snip > > And one more thing: I think the whole world-championship is a total desaster > after Eddie Jordan has fired HHF - my favourite driver. No, I do not say > that he is the best driver, he is just the driver I like the most. And somehow I really enjoyed how well Jordan did this weekend... ;) -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now?

Considering that we're talking F1, Mario's statistics seem pretty convincing. For the record, I liked watching Mansell race but I never supported him or disliked him Jim S "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k4tai$29uu$[email hidden]...

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> > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > Mario Petrinovic wrote: > > > > > 2) Nigel Mansell was nothing before and after Williams > > > > Oh dear!... I see we didn't use all of Mr Brain while compiling our > > list, did you! > > > > Gerry > > Example 1: Nigel Mansell > > a) without Williams : > > 1980 > F2 12th > 1981-84 NM is in Lotus-Ford, teammate to Elio de Angelis > 1981>Nigel Mansell 14th 8 points > Elio de Angelis 8th 14 points > 1982>Nigel Mansell 14th 7 points > Elio de Angelis 9th 23 points > 1983>Nigel Mansell 12-13th 10 points > Elio de Angelis 8th 15 points > 1984>Lotus gets Renault engine and Elio de Angelis is much > faster, but not NM > Nigel Mansell 9-10th 13 points > Elio de Angelis 3rd 34 points > 1989>Ferrari > Nigel Mansell 4th 38 points > Gerhard Berger 7th 21 points > 1990>Ferrari > Nigel Mansell 5th 37 points > Alain Prost 2nd 73 points > > I don't see world champion here. But look further > > b) with Williams : > > 1985-87 Honda engine ( from end of 85 that was the > most powerfull combination ) > 1985>Nigel Mansell 6th 31 points > Keke Rosberg 3rd 40 points > 1986>Frank Williams wonts English champion but NM > didn't succeed > Nigel Mansell 2nd 72 points > Nelson Piquet 3rd 69 points > 1987>Frank Williams alows NP more freedom this time > Nigel Mansell 2nd 61 points > Nelson Piquet Champ 76 points > (his only championship in a superior car-of 3 ) > 1988>Williams lost Honda engine and gets Judd > Nigel Mansell 9-10th 12 points > Riccardo Patrese 11th 8 points > 1991-92 Frank Williams had another go with NM > 1991>Williams-Renault > Nigel Mansell 2nd 72 points > Riccardo Patrese 3rd 53 points > 1992>Williams-Renault > Nigel Mansell Champ 108 points > Riccardo Patrese 2nd 56 points > > What a diferent picture. In 6 years 3 times 2nd and one > championship. > > c) after Williams - NM disappears from F1 > > > > > > >

If you want to be "popular" around here, you can't give facts. You must tell them what they want to hear. David G Fisher "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k4tai$29uu$[email hidden]...

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> > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > Mario Petrinovic wrote: > > > > > 2) Nigel Mansell was nothing before and after Williams > > > > Oh dear!... I see we didn't use all of Mr Brain while compiling our > > list, did you! > > > > Gerry > > Example 1: Nigel Mansell > > a) without Williams : > > 1980 > F2 12th > 1981-84 NM is in Lotus-Ford, teammate to Elio de Angelis > 1981>Nigel Mansell 14th 8 points > Elio de Angelis 8th 14 points > 1982>Nigel Mansell 14th 7 points > Elio de Angelis 9th 23 points > 1983>Nigel Mansell 12-13th 10 points > Elio de Angelis 8th 15 points > 1984>Lotus gets Renault engine and Elio de Angelis is much > faster, but not NM > Nigel Mansell 9-10th 13 points > Elio de Angelis 3rd 34 points > 1989>Ferrari > Nigel Mansell 4th 38 points > Gerhard Berger 7th 21 points > 1990>Ferrari > Nigel Mansell 5th 37 points > Alain Prost 2nd 73 points > > I don't see world champion here. But look further > > b) with Williams : > > 1985-87 Honda engine ( from end of 85 that was the > most powerfull combination ) > 1985>Nigel Mansell 6th 31 points > Keke Rosberg 3rd 40 points > 1986>Frank Williams wonts English champion but NM > didn't succeed > Nigel Mansell 2nd 72 points > Nelson Piquet 3rd 69 points > 1987>Frank Williams alows NP more freedom this time > Nigel Mansell 2nd 61 points > Nelson Piquet Champ 76 points > (his only championship in a superior car-of 3 ) > 1988>Williams lost Honda engine and gets Judd > Nigel Mansell 9-10th 12 points > Riccardo Patrese 11th 8 points > 1991-92 Frank Williams had another go with NM > 1991>Williams-Renault > Nigel Mansell 2nd 72 points > Riccardo Patrese 3rd 53 points > 1992>Williams-Renault > Nigel Mansell Champ 108 points > Riccardo Patrese 2nd 56 points > > What a diferent picture. In 6 years 3 times 2nd and one > championship. > > c) after Williams - NM disappears from F1 > > > > > > >

>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > If you want to be "popular" around here, you can't give facts. You musttell > them what they want to hear. Change your LP's side, it's skipping on the last groove. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > But if the carbon fibre is razor sharp as the drivers have suggested I > believe a punture would be caused immediately. No Steve. Race tyres usually let go in a spectacularly explosive fashion, owing to extreme stresses and G forces imposed on them. What would usually constitute a slow puncture in a road tyre would usually end up as a bulge before blowing out in racing conditions. In any case, I'd not fancy a tyre letting me down approaching a corner as fast as T1 is at Hockenheim.... MS

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> -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "jalo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:nU097.301155$[email hidden]... > > > I agree with JV who is one of the real racers unlike Coultard, Brundle > > etc. > > > (never heard of Surer) It was safer to use the pace car than to redo

the > > > most dangerous part of the race. > > > > I think you are missing the "main" reason it was stopped. If they had > > continued, there might have been a few tires blown out from all thecarbon > > fiber shreads they ran over. It wasn't worth the risk. In my opinion it > was > > a good call. A simular thing happened at last years German race,involving > > M. Schumacher, they didn't red flag the race then. It was far morecostly

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> in > > terms of the championship last year (to M. Schumacher), than this years > > race, so the whole idea that it was just for Micheal doesn't make much > sense > > to me. > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

>"Ronald Stoehr" <[email hidden]> wrote > Check out the medal distribution of recent olympics or any other trulyworld > wide sport event. I don't see a trend justifying your claim... Countries with less access to technology simply cannot cope with the big countries, even if they have much superior population. They sometime excel at certain events because of natural talent of the global type of human being that lives between it's boundaries. The people living in the USofA have enough free time for entertainment, more then any other country in the world I would say. Because of that and their access to technology, it's plain obvious that they can develop their talents more then any other country in the world. Do you really think the people in some African countries have time to develop their talents when for many they have difficulties to simply survive on the planet? Which is why sports like football are incredibly popular (for other reasons also but still...). You do not need much luxury to play it. Same for many simple sporting events. Of course at higher levels you need the funds to back you up, which many countries lack. Doing sports in a luxury. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

> > R. Schumacher has badly outqualified Montoya in all but three races this > year. Usually by a half second or more. The three in which Montoya did > outqualify Ralf, he did so by less than .2 COMBINED. Go read some history books. Anyone remember how evin Hill was outqualifying Ralph in his early Jordan days. The kid threw it up the road on a regular basis as I remember. Montoya is in his rookie season whilst Ralph has over 70 GP's under his belt. > > Ralf has three wins, a second, a fourth, and a fifth. Montoya has two > seconds and a fourth. Ralph didn't remotely look like winning anything in HIS FIRST season. > > Today, according to Ralf, Montoya apparently ignored the warnings thattheir > BMW engine needed to be babied a bit in order to help insure a finish.Ralf > drove smart while Montoya drove all out. You saw what happened. Ralf wins > and Montoya retires again. And RS had not blown up all season has he ! MS

Why would I ever think guys like you would move on from those old sims? You still haven't moved on to CD's. David G Fisher "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zpn97.26597$[email hidden]...

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> >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > > If you want to be "popular" around here, you can't give facts. You must > tell > > them what they want to hear. > > > Change your LP's side, it's skipping on the last groove. > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.ymenard.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

It's the same as one make (formula ford, formula audi etc) racing where in some formulas you're not allowed to change gear ratios, modify suspension so the best drivers come through to win etc. "just a show" and a damn good one, TOCA do the same by adding ballast to winning cars to keep the racing close. I would much rather see 25 cars finish within 2 secs than someone win by 40 secs with 3 cars on the lead lap. Unless youre in a Ferarri, Mclaren or a Williams you will not win an F1 race no matter how good you drive. Put MS in a Jordan and he wouldnt win a race all season. That's not what racings about. -- Steve Levett ------------------ "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:xFI97.56651$[email hidden]... > All one make? You mean all cars are the same? What series are you referring > to? > > I don't like the rules in NASCAR which enable all the cars to race in a > pack. It's just a show. > > David G Fisher > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > So you'd agree all one make racing is sad to watch? > > > > -- > > > > Steve Levett > > > > ------------------ > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:VZH97.56625$[email hidden]... > > > No. The artifically close racing of NASCAR is what's sad to watch. > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Isn't it sad he has to overdrive that badly just to be competitive for > > the > > > > minor places, provided the fast cars have dropped out ? > > > > > > > > Jan. > > > > =--- > > > > "David G Fisher" wrote... > > > > > <snip> > > > > > You didn't catch Alesi going through one of the chicanes > > > > > on the second to last lap at Hockenheim, did you? It almost > > > > > looked like he was moving at 2x speed because he was > > > > > whipping the wheel back and forth so quickly. It was > > > > > actually kind of funny looking. > > > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Stuart Becktell <[email hidden]> wrote on 30 Jul 2001: > If Senna got perferred treatment, the race at Imola would not have > happened, and he would have won a couple more championships... Look at 1993, and tell me FISA weren't desperate to stop Prost winning, because they were annoyed they couldn't get at him for his slagging them off in 1992. Look at the official video - it's called "Senna fights back", for heaven's sake, and is noticeably grudging in its praise for he World Champion of '93. Nigel Roebuck remarked on this at the time. -- David. (GPLRank handicap -6.57; Monsters of GPL +271.79) "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh. Earn (not very much) money writing reviews at http://uk.ciao.com

>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > Why would I ever think guys like you would move on from those old sims? I don't see the point of moving to other things. I listen to old music, I read old books, I watch old movies. I can enjoy them as much as modern stuff (sometimes even more). Why would it be different with racing simulations? I don't see the reason why a game that was raceable yesterday is not anymore. I still race Icr2 and Gp2. If there is a better sim released, I will include it in my list. MBTR per example. >You still haven't moved on to CD's. <yawn> just lame... -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:43:10 +0200, "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Ok enough is enough: Do you really think that Schumacher would risk his own >life and the life of other drivers to get a race stopped? If you really >think this than we don't have to discuss anymore, because this is just >ridiculous and stupid. Well, I wouldn't want to get a bit over the top ;) You've misread what I said. I was talking about AFTER the crash. MS did the only thing he could when his car was stuck in 1st, which was to cruise along in a straight line. AFTER the crash, he was headed for the gravel trap, which would have required the safety car for a few laps. But instead, he turned right for as long as he could till the car stopped in the middle of the track. Nothing about "risking life and limb", don't be daft. The safety car HAD to come out, he knew that. So by the time the cars came around to the accident, they would be cruising very slowly. But he did try his best to get the race red-flagged, only they moved his car very quickly. He was lucky that the debris was enough to bring it out anyway.

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>If you have a look at the pictures you'll see that Michael was already in >the middle of the street at the start and the cars were flying on both sides >around him. Lucaiano Burti wasn't able to see Michael, because of a car in >front of him and that's the reason why he hit Michael. After Michael stepped >out of the car the first thing he has done was to ask Burti if everything >was alright with him. The next thing was that he walked back to the pits, >slowly, because he thought the safety car would come out and his race was >over and out. As he noticed that the race was stopped he started to run back >to his crew to get in the T-Car.

Agreed, he did what was right in the circumstances. And obviously concerned about Burti too (vice versa as well I'm sure). Don't agree that he was walking slowly in the assumption that the SC would come out though. <other pro-MS stuff snipped> I don't have a problem with MS, I think he is the most talented, motivated and ambitious driver around. But the problem with being ambitious is that he doesn't worry about what methods are needed to get the results. Granted, he has improved since the days of taking out both Hill and JV. But he always pulls suspect moves to get what he wants. Add to that the fact that he has no problem with getting his teammate to move over and let him through. Having just said that, I must say Kudos to Ferrari for letting RB through to pass MS. The most sensible move anyway, since MS and RB were on different strategies, but good to see it happen anyway. I've been an MS fan since he went to Ferrari, I think he did some awesome things with that team in the face of adversity. But he has become much too dominant now and that's not good for the sport. Things will even themselves out I'm sure, but I'm rooting for the underdogs now. Go JPM!!! Rafe Mc

I'm with you on that one, pretty dumb stuff. Must've been some heavy stuff going on behind closed doors at Jordan. Good press too, NOT! Rafe Mc >And one more thing: I think the whole world-championship is a total desaster >after Eddie Jordan has fired HHF - my favourite driver. No, I do not say >that he is the best driver, he is just the driver I like the most.

> c) after Williams - NM disappears from F1 And wins CART championship in his rookie year. Rafe Mc

Pity 'bout Australia and the World Swimming Championships. Population of 18 million here, how many world records you want? If you could pull out the best athletes, then why don't you do it? Rafe Mc On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 01:51:55 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>What's funny? Everything I said is true. > >We don't have a large population? 270 million. > >We don't have a mix of different types of athletes? Ever heard of America >being called a "melting pot"? > >Our athletes don't receive the highest level of training? Does Denmark train >their athletes better than thye do in the U.S.? > >Which on of those points is funny? Come on, be specific. Let's hear exactly >why any one of those points is so funny to you. > >BTW, I don't really give a shit if America has the best or the worst >athletes. > >Go and play GPL. > >David G Fisher > >"Mikkel Gram-Hansen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:3b64ba2d$0$5949$[email hidden]... >> LOL even in non-simracing matters you still manage to pull the funniest >> stuff out of you hat. >> The "american �bermensch" theory by DGF has herby been let out of the >bag... >> remember this folks, you saw it here first ! >> >> Mikkel >> >> >> >> David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:7z197.50440$[email hidden]... >> > Becaue no one in the world can beat them. >> > >> > BTW, if enough Americans wanted to dominate soccer world wide, they >would. >> > We have a very large population with a mix of different types of >athletes >> > (huge factor) who receive the highest level of training. We aren't >better >> > people, but we do have the best athletes. >> > >> > David G Fisher >> > >> > "Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> > news:kU097.8868$[email hidden]... >> > >> I didn't know about this point but why do they call themselves WORLD >> > > champions ?? >> > >> > >> >>

Me too.:-)))) Hopefully HHF will come back next year sitting in a Toyota. -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Ronald Stoehr" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email hidden]... > Michael Heymanns wrote: > > > snip > > > > And one more thing: I think the whole world-championship is a total desaster > > after Eddie Jordan has fired HHF - my favourite driver. No, I do not say > > that he is the best driver, he is just the driver I like the most. > > And somehow I really enjoyed how well Jordan did this weekend... ;) > > -- > l8er > ronny > > Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change > to take effect. Reboot now?

"Thom j." <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message news: ovl97.52956$[email hidden]... & many of my best laps were done on the streets of Manhattan! :) >Yep, that's why as a tourist I just HATE drving there, and all your cab drivers should be jailed !!! Evere watched the movie TAXI, shot in Marseille ? Get it if you can, very funny.

well, that was a FIFA BULLSHIT, nobody uses the title "world champion", BTW I dont't even recall who was there and won, and on top of this I recall there were clubs from "everywhere" not just England or Italy or Spain or Brazil (I know there was no french one...) Who won ? just out of curiosity ? MAN Utd ? "Peter Ives" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message news: [email hidden]...

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> In article <kU097.8868$[email hidden]>, Txl <[email hidden]> > writes > > > >> > >> By all means, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant. If > >> you would bother to do some research on the subject, you would know > >> WHY it is called the World Series. Originally, the end-of-season > >> baseball championship was sponsored by a newspaper, the now defunct > >> "New York World". Hence, the name "World Series". As for basketball > > > >I didn't know about this point but why do they call themselves WORLD > >champions ?? > > > >I disagree with you about the south american football teams, the NATIONAL > >teams are on par with "us" europeans but the clubs are quite below

because

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> >all the best players are over here mostly for financial reasons but > >anyway... > > > >Let's take the Brazilian team, I don't think many players are actually > >playing in the brazilian championship (or columbian, or argentinian....) > > > > Guess you've forgotten Man Utd's and other Euro club's little visit last > year for the World Club Championship. Mmm, wonder which club won? > -- > Peter Ives > Remove ALL_STRESS before replying > If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me > GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77 >

Hey those cab'eez are wusses compared to us calm collected New York drivers.. Also this was just hopping from up'town to down'town eastside-westside...hahaha And you call urself a racer..lol :) "Txl" wrote:

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| Yep, that's why as a tourist I just HATE drving there, and all your cab | drivers should be jailed !!! | | Evere watched the movie TAXI, shot in Marseille ? Get it if you can, | very funny. | "Thom j." news: | >& many of my best laps were done on the streets of Manhattan! :)

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

> But what if the same thing happened on the restart and a couple of tyres > went into the crowd? They would have found any tyre problems in the 10-15 > minutes behind the pace car. Ayrton Senna. May 1st 1994. MS

"Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > c) after Williams - NM disappears from F1 > > And wins CART championship in his rookie year. > > Rafe Mc I agree that F1 drivers are faster than CART drivers.The fastest drivers are going where there is bigger money. That's why I'm so disgusted with modern F1. 25 years ago I used to watch those talents in battle turn after turn. I enjoyed every lap. In Ford-Cosworth days they had allmost equal machinery and battle was fierce. And there was no carbon fiber brakes and guy could outbrake somebody. Imagine that. And most talented driver will usualy be near top, and less talented near the end. But after Ford-Cosworth, middleclass driver would get the best machinery and be 2 laps in front of everybody. And his teammate, who is even less talented than he, would be 1 lap in front of the rest. And they all, instead of battle, would just "walkin' the cars " around and around.What a waste. And guy with best machinery would get all the credits and the rest would get nothing. And I don't like that. And guy who has less good machinery, and still wins races is my hero. And guy with best machinery, but with so meny driving errors that you are never sure if he will finish the race, is not.

"Mark Seery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:c7t97.38444$[email hidden]...

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> > > > > R. Schumacher has badly outqualified Montoya in all but three races this > > year. Usually by a half second or more. The three in which Montoya did > > outqualify Ralf, he did so by less than .2 COMBINED. > > Go read some history books. Anyone remember how evin Hill was

outqualifying > Ralph in his early Jordan days. The kid threw it up the road on a regular > basis as I remember. > > Montoya is in his rookie season whilst Ralph has over 70 GP's under his > belt. They are both the same age with lots of experience, as I already mentioned. JM raced in F3000 and CART, and was an F1 test driver. Hill was a loooong time veteran compared to RS. > > Ralf has three wins, a second, a fourth, and a fifth. Montoya has two > > seconds and a fourth. > > Ralph didn't remotely look like winning anything in HIS FIRST season. How good of a car was the Jordan in '97? > > Today, according to Ralf, Montoya apparently ignored the warnings that > their > > BMW engine needed to be babied a bit in order to help insure a finish. > Ralf > > drove smart while Montoya drove all out. You saw what happened. Ralfwins > > and Montoya retires again. > > And RS had not blown up all season has he ! Ralf hasn't crashed out due to an unforced error like JM has in a few races. He races smarter and faster than JM. Are you a big CART fan by any chance? David G Fisher

"Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> "Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > c) after Williams - NM disappears from F1 > > > > And wins CART championship in his rookie year. > > > > Rafe Mc > > I agree that F1 drivers are faster than CART drivers.

Not in CART they are: F1 bred drivers like Mark Blundell, Mo Gugelmin, Christian Fittipaldi, Roberto Moreno, Alex Zanardi are all good drivers, but not standouts. Well Zanardi was but that's the exception. The only driver who came from F1 to CART with storm was Nigel Mansell. -- Olav K. Malmin remove .spam when replying

There's only one way to even MS with rest of the pack. And that is to give him much slower car. "Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:43:10 +0200, "Michael Heymanns" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > I've been an MS fan since he went to Ferrari, I think he did some > awesome things with that team in the face of adversity. But he has > become much too dominant now and that's not good for the sport. Things > will even themselves out I'm sure, but I'm rooting for the underdogs > now. Go JPM!!! > > Rafe Mc

>Not in CART they are: F1 bred drivers like Mark Blundell, Mo Gugelmin, >Christian Fittipaldi, Roberto Moreno, Alex Zanardi are all good >drivers, but not standouts. Well Zanardi was but that's the >exception. The only driver who came from F1 to CART with storm was >Nigel Mansell. Hey man, you're forgetting Tora Takagi and Shinji Nakano. How bloody rude! Talk about taking the series with storm.....Tora just takes everyone out! Nakano's just happy to be there, not fussed about making passes, being quick, etc. Rafe Mc

Oh no, not again... :-((((( -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email hidden]... > The FIA released a statement defending the stopping of the race so they must > have had a lot more criticism from others than myself, JV and DC. There was > no right or wrong decision but if MS is involved and there is a debatable > decision, 95% of the time it will go to MS. > > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "Mark Seery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:qkn97.31911$[email hidden]... > > > > Steve Levett <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > But if the carbon fibre is razor sharp as the drivers have suggested I > > > believe a punture would be caused immediately. > > > > No Steve. > > > > Race tyres usually let go in a spectacularly explosive fashion, owing to > > extreme stresses and G forces imposed on them. What would usually > constitute > > a slow puncture in a road tyre would usually end up as a bulge before > > blowing out in racing conditions. > > > > In any case, I'd not fancy a tyre letting me down approaching a corner as > > fast as T1 is at Hockenheim.... > > > > MS > > > -- > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > > ------------------ > > > "jalo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:nU097.301155$[email hidden]... > > > > > I agree with JV who is one of the real racers unlike Coultard, > Brundle > > > > etc. > > > > > (never heard of Surer) It was safer to use the pace car than to redo > > the > > > > > most dangerous part of the race. > > > > > > > > I think you are missing the "main" reason it was stopped. If they had > > > > continued, there might have been a few tires blown out from all the > > carbon > > > > fiber shreads they ran over. It wasn't worth the risk. In my opinion > it > > > was > > > > a good call. A simular thing happened at last years German race, > > involving > > > > M. Schumacher, they didn't red flag the race then. It was far more > > costly > > > in > > > > terms of the championship last year (to M. Schumacher), than this > years > > > > race, so the whole idea that it was just for Micheal doesn't make much > > > sense > > > > to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

If I remember correctly ManU lost the first game, but can't remember the winner - must have been a team from South America. But who cares about this "championship" at all? Even the world cup final isn't a very big thing for the european teams. It's all about the champions league and it was won by Bayern M�nchen. But you are right of cause: A lot of players from South America are playing in european teams, two brazilian players are playing for Bayern: Elber and Sergio and one from Paraguay (Rocque Santa Cruz) and one from Peru (Claudio Pizarro). I was happy that Bayern won the champions league, but unfortunatly they also won the national title in the last seconds of the season and my favourite club finished only second. It was a real thriller in those last minutes. -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Txl" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:MDs97.9308$[email hidden]... > well, that was a FIFA BULLSHIT, nobody uses the title "world champion", BTW > I dont't even recall who was there and won, and on top of this I recall > there were clubs from "everywhere" not just England or Italy or Spain or > Brazil (I know there was no french one...) > > Who won ? just out of curiosity ? MAN Utd ? > > > "Peter Ives" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message > news: [email hidden]... > > In article <kU097.8868$[email hidden]>, Txl <[email hidden]> > > writes > > > > > >> > > >> By all means, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant. If > > >> you would bother to do some research on the subject, you would know > > >> WHY it is called the World Series. Originally, the end-of-season > > >> baseball championship was sponsored by a newspaper, the now defunct > > >> "New York World". Hence, the name "World Series". As for basketball > > > > > >I didn't know about this point but why do they call themselves WORLD > > >champions ?? > > > > > >I disagree with you about the south american football teams, the NATIONAL > > >teams are on par with "us" europeans but the clubs are quite below > because > > >all the best players are over here mostly for financial reasons but > > >anyway... > > > > > >Let's take the Brazilian team, I don't think many players are actually > > >playing in the brazilian championship (or columbian, or argentinian....) > > > > > > > Guess you've forgotten Man Utd's and other Euro club's little visit last > > year for the World Club Championship. Mmm, wonder which club won? > > -- > > Peter Ives > > Remove ALL_STRESS before replying > > If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me > > GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77 > > > >

All the drivers you have mentioned weren't fron runners in F1. Even Zanardi left F1 after having his very own desaster with Lotus. The second try wasn't much better for him. -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Olav K. Malmin" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email hidden]... > "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> writes: > > > "Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > c) after Williams - NM disappears from F1 > > > > > > And wins CART championship in his rookie year. > > > > > > Rafe Mc > > > > I agree that F1 drivers are faster than CART drivers. > > Not in CART they are: F1 bred drivers like Mark Blundell, Mo Gugelmin, > Christian Fittipaldi, Roberto Moreno, Alex Zanardi are all good > drivers, but not standouts. Well Zanardi was but that's the > exception. The only driver who came from F1 to CART with storm was > Nigel Mansell. > > -- > Olav K. Malmin > remove .spam when replying

Whole my life I'm watching unjusted FIA decisions against MS and now you talk like that. MS doesn't need FIA's help to win championship with 27 points lead in front of DC five races before end (in case of -eventual but not likely- DC win at Hockenheim ). "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > The FIA released a statement defending the stopping of the race so theymust > have had a lot more criticism from others than myself, JV and DC. Therewas

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> no right or wrong decision but if MS is involved and there is a debatable > decision, 95% of the time it will go to MS. > > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------

"Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> "Olav K. Malmin" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:[email hidden]... > > "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > > "Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > c) after Williams - NM disappears from F1 > > > > > > > > And wins CART championship in his rookie year. > > > > > > > > Rafe Mc > > > > > > I agree that F1 drivers are faster than CART drivers. > > > > Not in CART they are: F1 bred drivers like Mark Blundell, Mo Gugelmin, > > Christian Fittipaldi, Roberto Moreno, Alex Zanardi are all good > > drivers, but not standouts. Well Zanardi was but that's the > > exception. The only driver who came from F1 to CART with storm was > > Nigel Mansell.

<Post reorganized to make it remotely readable.> > All the drivers you have mentioned weren't fron runners in F1. Even Zanardi > left F1 after having his very own desaster with Lotus. The second try wasn't > much better for him. Yes. It was a answer to the very great generalisation that F1 drivers are faster than CART drivers. A sentence that is wrong on more than one cincumstance. -- Olav K. Malmin remove .spam when replying

> > They are both the same age with lots of experience, as I alreadymentioned. > JM raced in F3000 and CART, and was an F1 test driver. Hill was a loooong > time veteran compared to RS. What the hell has age got to do with it. I don't need a lesson on Montoya. I used to watch the guy as an unknown, racing in such windswept places as Thruxton on rainy bank holidays in front of crowds of maybe 5000 people. There is a world of difference between testing and the pressures of actually RACING at a GP weekend. A footballer can train all he likes but will never be match fit unless he actually COMPETES in football matches. I'd say that Ralph is pretty much the veteran in the Williams team being senior to the tune of around 60 GP's.

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> > > > Ralf has three wins, a second, a fourth, and a fifth. Montoya has two > > > seconds and a fourth. > > > > Ralph didn't remotely look like winning anything in HIS FIRST season. > > How good of a car was the Jordan in '97?

I meant in terms of the fact that he was throwing it up the road all the time. Rubens Baracello in contrast, put an uncompetitive Jordan in places well above it's station in his rookie years. > > > Ralf hasn't crashed out due to an unforced error like JM has in a fewraces. > He races smarter and faster than JM. I refer you once again to Ralph's rookie seasons. > > Are you a big CART fan by any chance? I know little or nothing about CART. Being a European, I rarely even see race footage. Actually, I find most modern single seaters uninspiring. Give me historic stuff and sportscars every time. MS

Agreed, MS + best car = boring championship fight As well as numerous easy victories. Ferrari don't have any reliability worries like McLaren always seemed to. Until Hockenheim, of course. Rafe Mc On Tue, 31 Jul 2001 12:01:45 +0200, "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> There's only one way to even MS with rest of the pack. And >that is to give him much slower car. > > >"Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:43:10 +0200, "Michael Heymanns" >> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> I've been an MS fan since he went to Ferrari, I think he did some >> awesome things with that team in the face of adversity. But he has >> become much too dominant now and that's not good for the sport. Things >> will even themselves out I'm sure, but I'm rooting for the underdogs >> now. Go JPM!!! >> >> Rafe Mc >

These are two different driving technics. a)CART prefers drivers with good overtaking technic and real racers with "balls " like somebody mentioned. b)Modern F1 prefers drivers who like to ride alone I like CART very much and wish F1 is like CART. I also more like drivers like Mansell and Zanardi than some "profesors ". But still better drivers goes where bigger money is, and still Mansell won F1 champinship only because he was in far superior car. I'd realy like that you enlighten me, but you didn't. Try again. "Olav K. Malmin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > All the drivers you have mentioned weren't fron runners in F1. EvenZanardi > > left F1 after having his very own desaster with Lotus. The second trywasn't

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> > much better for him. > > Yes. It was a answer to the very great generalisation that F1 drivers > are faster than CART drivers. A sentence that is wrong on more than > one cincumstance. > > -- > Olav K. Malmin > remove .spam when replying

You allways have reliability problems if you're trying to make car faster then it can be. Mercedes is fast enough believe me. Put MS in Mercedes and you'll have a rocket. MS clearly isn't in a fastest car like he never was. Otherwise Barrichello will be in front of DC. From the day McLaren came to F1 it was allways known as technicaly most advanced team. Ferrari was known for their reliability problems. "Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Agreed, MS + best car = boring championship fight > > As well as numerous easy victories. Ferrari don't have any reliability > worries like McLaren always seemed to. Until Hockenheim, of course. > > Rafe Mc

David G Fisher spoke thus to Mark Seery: > Are you a big CART fan by any chance? No David, he's a motor racing Fan, unlike you!

David G Fisher spoke thus to Mark Seery: No David, he's a motor racing Fan, unlike you!

"Jim Seamus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5fn97.11294$[email hidden]...

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> > Considering that we're talking F1, Mario's statistics seem pretty > convincing. > > For the record, I liked watching Mansell race but I never supported him or > disliked him > > Jim S

I disagree with the "after williams" nonsense. He left F1, went west and won, no sign of a Williams... cheers John

Usualy will F1 champions go west at the end of their career. Why didn't he stay in F1 and win more money or another F1 chanpionship. MS won 3 times and still didn't go west. "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:foA97.12833$[email hidden]...

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> > > I disagree with the "after williams" nonsense. > He left F1, went west and won, no sign of a Williams... > > cheers > John > > >

Wow ! I didn't know they made GPL available on vinyl <G> -- Ian P <email invalid due to spammers> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:xEn97.53505$[email hidden]... > Why would I ever think guys like you would move on from those old sims? You > still haven't moved on to CD's. > > David G Fisher > > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:zpn97.26597$[email hidden]... > > >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > If you want to be "popular" around here, you can't give facts. You must > > tell > > > them what they want to hear. > > > > > > Change your LP's side, it's skipping on the last groove. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > > -- May the Downforce be with you... > > -- http://www.ymenard.com/ > > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > > > > > >

yep, sad for schalke, especially after partying for 5 minutes..... "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message news: 9k64g8$fmb$[email hidden]... > If I remember correctly ManU lost the first game, but can't remember the > winner - must have been a team from South America. But who cares aboutthis > "championship" at all? Even the world cup final isn't a very big thing for > the european teams. It's all about the champions league and it was won by > Bayern M�nchen. > But you are right of cause: A lot of players from South America areplaying > in european teams, two brazilian players are playing for Bayern: Elber and > Sergio and one from Paraguay (Rocque Santa Cruz) and one from Peru(Claudio > Pizarro). > I was happy that Bayern won the champions league, but unfortunatly theyalso

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> won the national title in the last seconds of the season and my favourite > club finished only second. It was a real thriller in those last minutes. > > -- > Have several nice days !!! > > > Michael Heymanns > Team-Manager SRG > > IWSC Champion 2000 > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 1999 > TPTCC Champion 2000 > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > www.srg-group.de > www.teamsrg.de > www.tptcc.de > > 1&1 Profiseller > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > "Txl" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:MDs97.9308$[email hidden]... > > well, that was a FIFA BULLSHIT, nobody uses the title "world champion", > BTW > > I dont't even recall who was there and won, and on top of this I recall > > there were clubs from "everywhere" not just England or Italy or Spain or > > Brazil (I know there was no french one...) > > > > Who won ? just out of curiosity ? MAN Utd ? > > > > > > "Peter Ives" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le > message > > news: [email hidden]... > > > In article <kU097.8868$[email hidden]>, Txl <[email hidden]> > > > writes > > > > > > > >> > > > >> By all means, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

If > > > >> you would bother to do some research on the subject, you would know > > > >> WHY it is called the World Series. Originally, the end-of-season > > > >> baseball championship was sponsored by a newspaper, the now defunct > > > >> "New York World". Hence, the name "World Series". As forbasketball

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> > > > > > > >I didn't know about this point but why do they call themselves WORLD > > > >champions ?? > > > > > > > >I disagree with you about the south american football teams, the > NATIONAL > > > >teams are on par with "us" europeans but the clubs are quite below > > because > > > >all the best players are over here mostly for financial reasons but > > > >anyway... > > > > > > > >Let's take the Brazilian team, I don't think many players are

actually > > > >playing in the brazilian championship (or columbian, or > argentinian....) > > > > > > > > > > Guess you've forgotten Man Utd's and other Euro club's little visitlast

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> > > year for the World Club Championship. Mmm, wonder which club won? > > > -- > > > Peter Ives > > > Remove ALL_STRESS before replying > > > If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me > > > GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77 > > > > > > > > >

Look at GPL, those cars work best going sideways, he just did the same thing in a Champ car.... "jalo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:v7f97.312579$[email hidden]... > > Montoya has had very bad luck this year. Have you ever seen him drivinga

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> > CART car in the cockpit. IT is total genius, he even got those cars > drifting > > on the oval tracks... > > He is reckless then! Those cars do not work well going sideways. > > It's kind of funny reading all the press. It seams that the Williams guy's > are praising Ralf, while the BMW guy's are defending JPM. It's almost like > reading about 2 different teams. > >

What is so bad about Michigan, Indy, California and Charlotte? The cars go, on average, 150 in the turns, going up the track you lose at least 30 mph, and the cars can easily sastain a 120 MPH hit. Runoff areas are proven that they work great, or not at all. If the car gets airborne at all, it is in the wall at a very high speed. -Stuart Becktell "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Talladega, Michigan, Indy, Daytona, California, Charlotte. Do you want meto > go on? Nearly all ovals are more dangerous than Hockenheim because amistake

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> means hitting a wall at 150-230 mph whereas F1 usually has lots of run off > areas. > > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "Stuart Becktell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Ifd97.156013$[email hidden]... > > Two people out of a grid of how many? CART would not have had this > problem, > > there cars are designed so they don't have as many CF parts flying

around. > > IRL is a joke, did you see the indy 500? It took them like 7 accidentsto > > realize that you shouldn't go below the white line in turn 4. They also > ask > > there drivers to slow down if they are leading by too much. NASCAR isalso > a > > joke, they red flag the events when they are near the end just for the > > "racing," or throw a yellow flag at the end because they throw a cuponto > > the track. What NASCAR or IRL tracks are as dangerous as Hockinheim?CART

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> > may have some that are close, but I can't think of htem. > > -Stuart Becktell > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > David Coultard has said he thinks the race was only stopped because > > > Schumacher was in front of his home crowd, so there's 2 drivers that > agree > > > with me as well as the officials of CART, IRL and NASCAR who would of > all > > > put the pace car out, even on much more dangerous tracks than > Hockenheim. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > > ------------------ > > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:9k1r6a$27ulj$[email hidden]... > > > > Hi Gerry, > > > > > > > > > The difference between just losING > > > > > and being a losER is knowing when you've lost :). > > > > > > > > Well said Gerry :-) > > > > > > > > Achim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

The racing in NASCAR sucks, they don't do anything, then just take someone out. Oval racing is not really F1's first turn, they all basically stay put in the first turn, they do pass more, but it is not like having a car from 8th on the grid get to 2nd... "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k3phf$d2e$[email hidden]...

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> > "Stuart Becktell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Ifd97.156013$[email hidden]... > >NASCAR is also a > > joke, they red flag the events when they are near the end just for the > > "racing," > > Don't put me wrong but what's wrong with racing. > > >What NASCAR or IRL tracks are as dangerous as Hockinheim? CART > > may have some that are close, but I can't think of htem. > > -Stuart Becktell > > In some other post you said that first turn is most dangerous. In > oval racing whole race is actualy F1's first turn. > > > > >

Mario Petrinovic wrote:

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> > Usualy will F1 champions go west at the end of their > career. Why didn't he stay in F1 and win more money or > another F1 chanpionship. MS won 3 times and still didn't > go west. > > I disagree with the "after williams" nonsense. > > He left F1, went west and won, no sign of a Williams...

Mario, with respect mate. You said Mansell was 'nothing' before Williams: For Christ's sake man, they were his formative years! And what about that in between spell at Ferrari in 89. He won his first race for the team and was immediately taken into the hearts of the Tifosi! They christened him Il Leone and he repaid them with some fantastic results. The Hungarian race was especially memorable as he started 12th and managed to win on a circuit that is notorious for it's lack of overtaking. Podium finishes in France, Britain, Belgium and Germany saw him finish fourth. An improvement on the previous year! I ask you, is that 'nothing'? You said Mansell was 'nothing' after Williams: BOLLOCKS! He was Indycar champion. Hardly 'nothing'. After CART and a half hearted return to F1 in a McLaren that was too small for him and a stint in BTCC, I think he become more interested in golf and retired. So after a not inconsiderable number of years at the top, who are you to question his own personal decision not to return to F1? Are you saying he's 'nothing' because he only won one F1 crown? You also wrote this: >2) Nigel Mansell was nothing before and after Williams. COME ON! Show SOME respect! ;) Gerry

David G Fisher wrote: > > If you want to be "popular" around here, you can't give facts. You must tell > them what they want to hear. Stupid troll. Gerry "F1 drivers come from a world wide talent pool of 6 billion people." -- David G Fisher PS: Where do you get your 'facts' from, a bloke down the pub?

In article <MDs97.9308$[email hidden]>, Txl <[email hidden]> writes

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>well, that was a FIFA BULLSHIT, nobody uses the title "world champion", >BTW >I dont't even recall who was there and won, and on top of this I recall >there were clubs from "everywhere" not just England or Italy or Spain or >Brazil (I know there was no french one...) > >Who won ? just out of curiosity ? MAN Utd ?

The point I was trying to make was that you claimed that South American club teams weren't up to scratch because europe had all their best players and therefore they were not capable of competing at club level. Why they called it the 'World Club Championship' is of no consequence, however I needed to use that title so that you knew of which tournament I was refering to. So, to counter your argument against South American clubs, the 2 teams that got through to the final were both Brazilian. Can't recall both their names, but sure one was Corinthians and the other may have been Palmeiras or Vasco de Gama. You may well argue that the European clubs were not that committed to such a Mickey Mouse tourney, but Man Utd were actually given dispensation from playing in the FA Cup that season just so they could go and play. That sounds like pretty serious commitment to me, although there were other political shenanigans that also influenced their decision, which I won't go into. Btw, I reckon you're just peaved that all your good frenchie's play abroad instead of in France, meaning no good french club teams. hehe. Anyway, this is getting waaayyyy off topic now, don't you think. :)

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> > >"Peter Ives" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le >message >news: [email hidden]... >> In article <kU097.8868$[email hidden]>, Txl <[email hidden]> >> writes >> > >> >> >> >> By all means, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant. If >> >> you would bother to do some research on the subject, you would know >> >> WHY it is called the World Series. Originally, the end-of-season >> >> baseball championship was sponsored by a newspaper, the now >defunct >> >> "New York World". Hence, the name "World Series". As for basketball >> > >> >I didn't know about this point but why do they call themselves WORLD >> >champions ?? >> > >> >I disagree with you about the south american football teams, the >NATIONAL >> >teams are on par with "us" europeans but the clubs are quite below >because >> >all the best players are over here mostly for financial reasons but >> >anyway... >> > >> >Let's take the Brazilian team, I don't think many players are actually >> >playing in the brazilian championship (or columbian, or argentinian....) >> > >> >> Guess you've forgotten Man Utd's and other Euro club's little visit last >> year for the World Club Championship. Mmm, wonder which club won? >> -- >> Peter Ives >> Remove ALL_STRESS before replying >> If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me >> GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77 >> > >

-- Peter Ives Remove ALL_STRESS before replying If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

Ronald Stoehr wrote:

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> Michael Heymanns wrote: > > > snip > > > > And one more thing: I think the whole world-championship is a total desaster > > after Eddie Jordan has fired HHF - my favourite driver. No, I do not say > > that he is the best driver, he is just the driver I like the most. > > And somehow I really enjoyed how well Jordan did this weekend... ;)

Yeah, me too. I always liked Jordan, but their image has taken a severe beating after the Frentzen incident. Not offering any explanation has just compounded the problem. It's hard to imagine what happened. HHF is probably the most mild-mannered and nicest guy in the sport, so I can't see him pissing off Eddie Jordan. Jordan even said he has never heard HHF raise his voice. Given Trulli's poor showing in the race (he lamely spun out trying to fend off Panis), Eddie fired the wrong guy. Trulli, while a decent qualifier, has never been much at bringing home a result. The Speedvision guys were reporting that Honda wanted a young Japanese driver in the seat. If so, why did they just re-sign Frentzen for 2002 (only a couple of weeks ago)? Very odd. Dave Ewing -- ***************************************************** David A. Ewing Xilinx Boulder [email hidden] *****************************************************

"Mark Seery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ENx97.41528$[email hidden]... > > > > They are both the same age with lots of experience, as I already > mentioned. > > JM raced in F3000 and CART, and was an F1 test driver. Hill was aloooong > > time veteran compared to RS. > > What the hell has age got to do with it. I don't need a lesson on Montoya.I > used to watch the guy as an unknown, racing in such windswept places as > Thruxton on rainy bank holidays in front of crowds of maybe 5000 people. There we go. Sentimentality. David G Fisher

Since you use the word "stupid", I feel free to use it to describe you. How stupid can you be to not understand this comment? "F1 drivers come from a world wide talent pool of 6 billion people." Are you pretending to be a dumb ass because you are still desperate to take shots at me? Or are you simply an idiot? I'll explain that comment to you in a way that a pebble can understand. That comment was made while discussing the talents of NASCAR and F1 drivers. NASCAR fans on this newsgroup were saying that NASCAR drivers were as good as F1 drivers. I said that NASCAR drivers come from one region (the South) in one country (U.S.). F1 drivers come from countries all over the world. See the difference? Here's the point where your tiny brain begins to melt. You take the 6 billion comment literally. Do you really think that I believe that future F1 drivers are being hunted down in every single village in the entire world? At the Arctic circle? The bottom of the sea? You really don't understand how ridiculous it is to claim that NASCAR drivers are the equal to F1 drivers when they all come from one region in one country? Is there something in the water in the South which makes them fantastically skilled drivers? David G Fisher (Amazed at how fu**en stupid people can be when trying to prove their intelligence) "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > David G Fisher wrote: > > > > If you want to be "popular" around here, you can't give facts. You musttell

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> > them what they want to hear. > > Stupid troll. > > Gerry > > "F1 drivers come from a world wide talent pool of 6 billion people." -- > David G Fisher > > PS: Where do you get your 'facts' from, a bloke down the pub?

Yes, because a stupid guy from tv told them the other game was over, but it wasn't at all. I'm a supporter from Schalke since a long, long time and this was certainly a very hard day and I do hope that I don't have to go through this once more. Hopefully they will have a bit more luck this year. -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Txl" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:%fB97.6108$[email hidden]... > yep, sad for schalke, especially after partying for 5 minutes..... > > > > "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message news: > 9k64g8$fmb$[email hidden]... > > If I remember correctly ManU lost the first game, but can't remember the > > winner - must have been a team from South America. But who cares about > this > > "championship" at all? Even the world cup final isn't a very big thing for > > the european teams. It's all about the champions league and it was won by > > Bayern M�nchen. > > But you are right of cause: A lot of players from South America are > playing > > in european teams, two brazilian players are playing for Bayern: Elber and > > Sergio and one from Paraguay (Rocque Santa Cruz) and one from Peru > (Claudio > > Pizarro). > > I was happy that Bayern won the champions league, but unfortunatly they > also > > won the national title in the last seconds of the season and my favourite > > club finished only second. It was a real thriller in those last minutes. > > > > -- > > Have several nice days !!! > > > > > > Michael Heymanns > > Team-Manager SRG > > > > IWSC Champion 2000 > > IPSC GT-Champion 2000 > > TPTCC Champion 1999 > > TPTCC Champion 2000 > > TPTCC Champion 2001 > > > > www.srg-group.de > > www.teamsrg.de > > www.tptcc.de > > > > 1&1 Profiseller > > www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 > > "Txl" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > news:MDs97.9308$[email hidden]... > > > well, that was a FIFA BULLSHIT, nobody uses the title "world champion", > > BTW > > > I dont't even recall who was there and won, and on top of this I recall > > > there were clubs from "everywhere" not just England or Italy or Spain or > > > Brazil (I know there was no french one...) > > > > > > Who won ? just out of curiosity ? MAN Utd ? > > > > > > > > > "Peter Ives" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le > > message > > > news: [email hidden]... > > > > In article <kU097.8868$[email hidden]>, Txl <[email hidden]> > > > > writes > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> By all means, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant. > If > > > > >> you would bother to do some research on the subject, you would know > > > > >> WHY it is called the World Series. Originally, the end-of-season > > > > >> baseball championship was sponsored by a newspaper, the now defunct > > > > >> "New York World". Hence, the name "World Series". As for > basketball > > > > > > > > > >I didn't know about this point but why do they call themselves WORLD > > > > >champions ?? > > > > > > > > > >I disagree with you about the south american football teams, the > > NATIONAL > > > > >teams are on par with "us" europeans but the clubs are quite below > > > because > > > > >all the best players are over here mostly for financial reasons but > > > > >anyway... > > > > > > > > > >Let's take the Brazilian team, I don't think many players are > actually > > > > >playing in the brazilian championship (or columbian, or > > argentinian....) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guess you've forgotten Man Utd's and other Euro club's little visit > last > > > > year for the World Club Championship. Mmm, wonder which club won? > > > > -- > > > > Peter Ives > > > > Remove ALL_STRESS before replying > > > > If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me > > > > GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>"Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote > Agreed, MS + best car = boring championship fight He doesn't have the best car this year. Well not anymore. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > NASCAR fans on this newsgroup were saying that NASCAR drivers were as good > as F1 drivers. Really? Where and when? Post proof or retract. > David G Fisher (Amazed at how fu**en stupid people can be when trying to > prove their intelligence) Yep fucking stupid indeed you are. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Maybe you are NOTHING if you don't win a championship. That's something I don't like in these days. Only the winner is important and the 2nd place is the first one of the loosers. Unfortunatly you can see this in nearly every sport today. Winning is not everything and if you don't win you aren't NOTHING. Nigel Mansell was always a brilliant driver. I remember a race at Brands Hatch where Nigel made a superb manoeuvre to overtake Nelson Piquet. He was sometimes really close to the world championship, but it took him a very long time to finally win the championship and I guess there wasn't a lot of people saying that he didn't deserve it. He was always a fighter and that's one of the reasons people liked Nigel Mansell, he was a real racer. -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email hidden]... > > > Mario Petrinovic wrote: > > > > Usualy will F1 champions go west at the end of their > > career. Why didn't he stay in F1 and win more money or > > another F1 chanpionship. MS won 3 times and still didn't > > go west. > > > > I disagree with the "after williams" nonsense. > > > He left F1, went west and won, no sign of a Williams... > > Mario, with respect mate. > > You said Mansell was 'nothing' before Williams: For Christ's sake man, > they were his formative years! > > And what about that in between spell at Ferrari in 89. He won his first > race for the team and was immediately taken into the hearts of the > Tifosi! They christened him Il Leone and he repaid them with some > fantastic results. The Hungarian race was especially memorable as he > started 12th and managed to win on a circuit that is notorious for it's > lack of overtaking. Podium finishes in France, Britain, Belgium and > Germany saw him finish fourth. An improvement on the previous year! > > I ask you, is that 'nothing'? > > You said Mansell was 'nothing' after Williams: BOLLOCKS! He was Indycar > champion. Hardly 'nothing'. > > After CART and a half hearted return to F1 in a McLaren that was too > small for him and a stint in BTCC, I think he become more interested in > golf and retired. > > So after a not inconsiderable number of years at the top, who are you to > question his own personal decision not to return to F1? Are you saying > he's 'nothing' because he only won one F1 crown? > > You also wrote this: > > >2) Nigel Mansell was nothing before and after Williams. > > COME ON! Show SOME respect! ;) > > Gerry

And the next question would be: How long will Jordan have the Honda-Power? Frentzen has had always good connections to Honda and Bridgestone, because of his time in the japanese F3000. I'm not so sure that they really liked what Eddie has done with Heinz. There are rumours that the reason to fire HHF were the statements of Heinz that the car isn't really good and that Trulli gets more support from the team. Rumours... HHF hasn't said anything yet about it - as far as I know. -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "David Ewing" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email hidden]... Ronald Stoehr wrote: Michael Heymanns wrote: > snip > > And one more thing: I think the whole world-championship is a total desaster > after Eddie Jordan has fired HHF - my favourite driver. No, I do not say > that he is the best driver, he is just the driver I like the most. And somehow I really enjoyed how well Jordan did this weekend... ;) Yeah, me too. I always liked Jordan, but their image has taken a severe beating after the Frentzen incident. Not offering any explanation has just compounded the problem. It's hard to imagine what happened. HHF is probably the most mild-mannered and nicest guy in the sport, so I can't see him pissing off Eddie Jordan. Jordan even said he has never heard HHF raise his voice. Given Trulli's poor showing in the race (he lamely spun out trying to fend off Panis), Eddie fired the wrong guy. Trulli, while a decent qualifier, has never been much at bringing home a result. The Speedvision guys were reporting that Honda wanted a young Japanese driver in the seat. If so, why did they just re-sign Frentzen for 2002 (only a couple of weeks ago)? Very odd. Dave Ewing -- ***************************************************** David A. Ewing Xilinx Boulder [email hidden] *****************************************************

Why are you always shouting at each other that the other one is stupid? Can't you discuss in a normal way? -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "ymenard" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:nKD97.18974$[email hidden]... > >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > > NASCAR fans on this newsgroup were saying that NASCAR drivers were as good > > as F1 drivers. > > Really? Where and when? > > Post proof or retract. > > > > > David G Fisher (Amazed at how fu**en stupid people can be when trying to > > prove their intelligence) > > Yep fucking stupid indeed you are. > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.ymenard.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

Wrong premise... raw driving talent is not something measured in numbers or even indicated by results, yet conversely it's easily spotted on rainy/windswept tracks. Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. "David G Fisher" wrote... > <snip> > There we go. Sentimentality. > > David G Fisher >

Touche` Fran�ois! Way too funny!!!! hahahaha :) "David G Fisher" unsubstantiated writes: | > NASCAR fans on this newsgroup were saying that NASCAR drivers were asgood | > as F1 drivers. "ymenard" intellectually responds: | Really? Where and when? | | Post proof or retract. "David G Fisher also unsubstantiated writes: | > (Amazed at how fu**en stupid people can be when trying to | > prove their intelligence) "ymenard" intellectually responds again:

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| Yep fucking stupid indeed you are. | -- | -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> | -- May the Downforce be with you... | -- http://www.ymenard.com/ | -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez | Corporation - helping America into the New World...

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

You are correct Michael but sometimes it is just too funny!! Sorry bout dat!! A Humbled -Thom_j. :( "Michael Heymanns" wrote:

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| Why are you always shouting at each other that the other one is stupid? | Can't you discuss in a normal way? | | -- | Have several nice days !!! | | Michael Heymanns | Team-Manager SRG | | IWSC Champion 2000 | IPSC GT-Champion 2000 | TPTCC Champion 1999 | TPTCC Champion 2000 | TPTCC Champion 2001 | | www.srg-group.de | www.teamsrg.de | www.tptcc.de | | 1&1 Profiseller | www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791

<snipped> --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

>"Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote > Well, who does then? BMW has a better car if you take both of them equally (not considering the problems each face with mechanical stuff). imho. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote > Why are you always shouting at each other that the other one is stupid? Because I do. > Can't you discuss in a normal way? There's a new official law that states what is normal and what is not in a discussion? -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

First I must apologize to all Brits for my words but I must state facts. Every F1 driver is a good driver. All of them are F3 or F3000 champions or something like that. But we are talking here about the best of them - - World Champions. Mansell was not good at the begining. For 5 consecutive years he was behind his teammates, both of them at the end of their career. Never saw Michael Schumacher in that position. Then had 4 oportunities to win championship in a superior Williams machine. Realized only one in a year when Williams was so dominant that he simply cuoldn't fail. Further, I never heard F1 champion retired from F1 after wining championship (as much I never heard that Championship contender was banned for 3 races, and only for slight passing in a pace car condition-MS). I suspect that his driving abilities has something to do with that decision- thats all. I must say that I very much respect his look at life, his heart, and his driving style. "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Mario, with respect mate. > > You said Mansell was 'nothing' before Williams: For Christ's sake man, > they were his formative years! > > And what about that in between spell at Ferrari in 89. He won his first > race for the team and was immediately taken into the hearts of the > Tifosi! They christened him Il Leone and he repaid them with some > fantastic results. The Hungarian race was especially memorable as he > started 12th and managed to win on a circuit that is notorious for it's > lack of overtaking. Podium finishes in France, Britain, Belgium and > Germany saw him finish fourth. An improvement on the previous year! > > I ask you, is that 'nothing'? > > You said Mansell was 'nothing' after Williams: BOLLOCKS! He was Indycar > champion. Hardly 'nothing'. > > After CART and a half hearted return to F1 in a McLaren that was too > small for him and a stint in BTCC, I think he become more interested in > golf and retired. > > So after a not inconsiderable number of years at the top, who are you to > question his own personal decision not to return to F1? Are you saying > he's 'nothing' because he only won one F1 crown? > > You also wrote this: > > >2) Nigel Mansell was nothing before and after Williams. > > COME ON! Show SOME respect! ;) > > Gerry

"Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k71mt$n9d$[email hidden]... > He was always a fighter and that's one of the reasons people liked Nigel > Mansell, he was a real racer. And anyone who can give Ayrton Senna a good throttling gets a pint off me in the pub any day. I do tend to doze off when he speaks, but as a driver, he's been the best British driver of recent years IMO. cheers John

"Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3b66d530$[email hidden]... > Watching a NASCAR (and CART) is far superior as a spectacle than F1 where > you usually get more overtaking in 1 race than you do in a whole F1season. > > -- > > Steve Levett I watched a CART round (Canada- Molson) and saw a bunch of yahoos punting each other off the road in second rate machinery. I watched the Daytona 400 NASCAR, and watched 40 or so anonymous 3rd rate saloon cars trundling round (actual speeds may be high, but relative speeds are almost identical- snorefest), sure they didn't stay in the same order, big deal, I can watch cars overtake all day long on the M1 motorway, doesn't make it exciting. I watched the F1 Hockenheim race, and saw drama, excitement, intrigue, *real* racing, beautiful 1st rate racing machines... The battle between the the two Bennettons and Alesi was great to watch, but oh no, nobody succeeded in a pass, so it must have been boring. When passes were made, it was done with skill and sheer balls, not just catching a draft, or barging the other guy out of the way (NASCAR, CART respectively) I'll take boring over crass any day in that case. cheers John

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:iHD97.56259$[email hidden]... > in one country (U.S.). F1 drivers come from countries all over the world. > See the difference? Here's the point where your tiny brain begins to melt. > You take the 6 billion comment literally. Do you really think that I > believe that future F1 drivers are being hunted down in every singlevillage > in the entire world? At the Arctic circle? The bottom of the sea? Youreally > don't understand how ridiculous it is to claim that NASCAR drivers are the > equal to F1 drivers when they all come from one region in one country? Is > there something in the water in the South which makes them fantastically > skilled drivers? I don't disagree with the premise, but to my knowledge almost all F1 drivers have come from wealthy (and I mean loaded) families in 1st world countries, with infrastructure and support from pre-teenage. I know you exagerate to make a point, but I think it's too much of an exageration. cheers John

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:UvE97.19281$[email hidden]...

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> >"Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Why are you always shouting at each other that the other one is stupid? > > Because I do. > > > Can't you discuss in a normal way? > > There's a new official law that states what is normal and what is not in a > discussion? >

calling each other fucking idiots is not normal discussion. Normal is "what most people do", what you're doing is arguing (badly), not discussing. cheers John

"David Ewing" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Yeah, me too. I always liked Jordan, but their image has taken a severebeating > after the Frentzen incident. Not offering any explanation has justcompounded the > problem. Given it's a "legal situation" that's reason enough for "no comment" from either party. Don't be sorry for HHF, most people who get sacked from their jobs don't have a few million quid to wipe up their tears. cheers John

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Wrong premise... raw driving talent is not something measured in numbersor > even indicated by results, yet conversely it's easily spotted on > rainy/windswept tracks. > > Jan. I noticed DGF also failed to address the facts that JPM's poor qualifying form was due to a different tyre compound known to be poorer until worn in properly. cheers John

Couldn't have said it better John. David G Fisher "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%3F97.14652$[email hidden]... > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3b66d530$[email hidden]... > > Watching a NASCAR (and CART) is far superior as a spectacle than F1where

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> > you usually get more overtaking in 1 race than you do in a whole F1 > season. > > > > -- > > > > Steve Levett > > I watched a CART round (Canada- Molson) and saw a bunch of yahoos punting > each other off the road in second rate machinery. > I watched the Daytona 400 NASCAR, and watched 40 or so anonymous 3rd rate > saloon cars trundling round (actual speeds may be high, but relative

speeds > are almost identical- snorefest), sure they didn't stay in the same order, > big deal, I can watch cars overtake all day long on the M1 motorway,doesn't > make it exciting. > > I watched the F1 Hockenheim race, and saw drama, excitement, intrigue, > *real* racing, beautiful 1st rate racing machines... > > The battle between the the two Bennettons and Alesi was great to watch,but > oh no, nobody succeeded in a pass, so it must have been boring. Whenpasses

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> were made, it was done with skill and sheer balls, not just catching a > draft, or barging the other guy out of the way (NASCAR, CART respectively) > > I'll take boring over crass any day in that case. > > cheers > John > > > > >

> The FIA released a statement defending the stopping of the race so theymust > have had a lot more criticism from others than myself, JV and DC. Therewas > no right or wrong decision but if MS is involved and there is a debatable > decision, 95% of the time it will go to MS. 95% huh? Ok start naming them, I would like to hear of all the other times he benifitted from debatable decisions.

I failed to address it because I think it's nonsense. Are you saying that the William's team is the only team that each race purposely put lesser tires on the same driver's car during qualifying because they didn't care how high he placed in qualifying? They certainly have a different strategy than all the other teams in F1. David G Fisher "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:XdF97.14717$[email hidden]...

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> > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Wrong premise... raw driving talent is not something measured in numbers > or > > even indicated by results, yet conversely it's easily spotted on > > rainy/windswept tracks. > > > > Jan. > > I noticed DGF also failed to address the facts that JPM's poor qualifying > form was due to a different tyre compound known to be poorer until worn in > properly. > > cheers > John > > >

"JM" wrote... > <snip> > Normal is "what most people do", That is a *very* scary comment. Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

>"JM" <[email hidden]> wrote > Normal is "what most people do" Gee, good reason enough for NOT going that way. Unless you like your typical brainwashed sheep floating down with the herp... > what you're doing is arguing (badly), not discussing. Why should you care? I'll talk with DGF the way I want. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:WzF97.40609$[email hidden]... > >"JM" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Normal is "what most people do" > > Gee, good reason enough for NOT going that way. Unless you like your > typical brainwashed sheep floating down with the herp... But that's exactly the way you and your buddies here behave. David G Fisher

I'd have to *more or less* totally agree with that assessment :) I can take or leave a CART or NASCAR race (not to say I don't enjoy them, I enjoy most motorsport), but I nearly always find F1 races exciting. -- Ian P <email invalid due to spammers> "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%3F97.14652$[email hidden]... > I watched a CART round (Canada- Molson) and saw a bunch of yahoos punting > each other off the road in second rate machinery. > I watched the Daytona 400 NASCAR, and watched 40 or so anonymous 3rd rate > saloon cars trundling round (actual speeds may be high, but relative speeds > are almost identical- snorefest), sure they didn't stay in the same order, > big deal, I can watch cars overtake all day long on the M1 motorway, doesn't > make it exciting. > > I watched the F1 Hockenheim race, and saw drama, excitement, intrigue, > *real* racing, beautiful 1st rate racing machines... > > The battle between the the two Bennettons and Alesi was great to watch, but > oh no, nobody succeeded in a pass, so it must have been boring. When passes > were made, it was done with skill and sheer balls, not just catching a > draft, or barging the other guy out of the way (NASCAR, CART respectively) > > I'll take boring over crass any day in that case. > > cheers > John

> > Btw, I reckon you're just peaved that all your good frenchie's play > abroad instead of in France, meaning no good french club teams. hehe. > >Yes, unfortunately you are right... I am a Marseille supporter and since 93 when they won the champion's league I must say nothing much has happened. The problem is that the french clubs are too poor to afford the "famous" (note I didn't say the good because we have some good "cheap" ones in France) players, when you see that Madrid paid 500+ Million francs to get Zidane....it's more than the TOTAL budget of ANY french team...

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "JM" wrote... > > <snip> > > Normal is "what most people do", > > That is a *very* scary comment. > > Jan.

And a statistical truth. Not to say there's anything wrong with not being normal :) cheers John

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:WzF97.40609$[email hidden]... > >"JM" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Normal is "what most people do" > > Gee, good reason enough for NOT going that way. Unless you like your > typical brainwashed sheep floating down with the herp... Then be proud not to be normal!

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> > > > > what you're doing is arguing (badly), not discussing. > > > Why should you care? I'll talk with DGF the way I want.

I don't care about anything except the semantic argument. cheers John

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:BxF97.56390$[email hidden]...

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> I failed to address it because I think it's nonsense. Are you saying that > the William's team is the only team that each race purposely put lesser > tires on the same driver's car during qualifying because they didn't care > how high he placed in qualifying? They certainly have a different strategy > than all the other teams in F1. > > David G Fisher >

I think the idea has merit. Williams are Michelin's biggest partner in F1, and Michelin needs every available piece of information possible. I understand that the tyre choice lies ultimately with the driver, so JPM's "mistake" might have been to take the tyres that are poor for qualifying in lieu of improved race performance- certainly Martin Brundle reminds us at every race that certain Michelins don't "wear in" until about 14 laps in. If I recall, JPM was opting for harder compounds than RS- they have to use the same set of tyres for qualifying as the race, so it's a critical decision, and arguably one that JPM has not made correctly. It doesn't really help you to compare the driving talents of the two drivers, however (my original point). They're not "lesser" tyres, as such, they have a strength which is apparent in race conditions, not qualifying. I don't know what the level of commentary and information is where your TV feed comes from, but these are "facts" mentioned by eg MBrundle, Tony Jardine, James Allen, as part of the UK ITV F1 coverage. cheers John

"JM" wrote...

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> <snip> > I watched a CART round (Canada- Molson) and saw a > bunch of yahoos punting each other off the road in > second rate machinery. > I watched the Daytona 400 NASCAR, and watched 40 or > so anonymous 3rd rate saloon cars trundling round > (actual speeds may be high, but relative speeds are > almost identical- snorefest), sure they didn't stay > in the same order, big deal, I can watch cars > overtake all day long on the M1 motorway, doesn't > make it exciting.

And prey tell what, exactly what, does the level of technology have to do with the level of the racing? -What good is high tech when half the field doesn't see the finish because the gizmo's break down? -What good is high tech when it makes a double world champion look like a rank amateur on the grid? > I watched the F1 Hockenheim race, and saw drama, > excitement, intrigue, *real* racing, beautiful 1st > rate racing machines... Was that the real or the fantasy version? > The battle between the the two Bennettons and Alesi was > great to watch, What battle? > but oh no, nobody succeeded in a pass, so it must have been > boring. Nobody was ever in a position to attempt one, proving once more it takes a large disparity in performance to pull off a clean pass in F1. > When passes were made, it was done with skill and > sheer balls, not just catching a draft, or barging > the other guy out of the way (NASCAR, CART respectively) Drafting has always been a feature of passes in F1 as well, even in the early fifties. Anyway, I assume you are referring to Rubens Barichello driving a much lighter Ferrari around Coulthard twice by denying him his exit out of the entry to the stadium? -Nice moves indeed, brave moves as well. Great racing, unfortunately, would have involved Coulthard not taking it lying down. > I'll take boring over crass any day in that case. Don't knock something because you lack the insight to appreciate it. Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

>"JM" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Why should you care? I'll talk with DGF the way I want. > > I don't care about anything except the semantic argument. My "relation" with DGF shouldn't be at all important to your eyes. It's between him and me. LOL -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > But that's exactly the way you and your buddies here behave. Post proof or retract :) I mean, I'm one of those supposed GPL-addict? I didn't know that myself. Haven't raced it in a month except to do 1 lap on those new tracks released. I don't consider other released sims to be equal to GPL except a few. There's only a handful of racing sims that have been released in the past years, therefore it's quite normal that many people who prefer serious racing simulations continue to race GPL. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Impossible as we're a deluded minority, remember? Jan./ too easy!! ;-) =--- PS.: Frank: how did you manage to make that herp/herd typo? -Those keys are *miles* apart on a keyboard!! (relatively speaking) <g> "David G Fisher" wrote... > <snip> > But that's exactly the way you and your buddies > here behave. > > David G Fisher >

"Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3b671430$[email hidden]... > > "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > It's pretty ovious you know nothing about oval racing and youd probablysay > you find it boring watching cars go round in circles, > I prefer short ovals, it's true. I know a little more than "nothing" about ovals. What, are you the only one entitled to an opinion? > (actual speeds may be high, but relative speeds > > are almost identical- snorefest), > > Close relative speeds means the cars are racing closely, differentrelative > speeds means a car will shoot of into the distance means a snorefest a laF1 > On the superspeedways, it looks like friday night on the motorway. My point about F1 is not that the cars are different in performance, but that there is more variation in speeds over the length of the lap, watching Barricello go round the outside of Coulthard was a lot more interesting to me, than some shmoe pulling out of the line and breezing ahead for a lap.

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> > sure they didn't stay in the same order, > > big deal, I can watch cars overtake all day long on the M1 motorway, > doesn't > > make it exciting. > > There are much closer finishes in CART and NASCAR, usually under a couple

of > seconds. Most people I know watch the 1st corner in F1 and then do some > work, surf the net etc and have the TV on in the backround. > And in the "good old days" of Formula one, the leader would stop for a cup of tea and still have time to win the race, after borrowing his 2nd placed team mate's car to finish the race with. Not a dig at US racing, more the other people in the topic bemoaning "modern" F1. > So you think TOCA 5 years ago was boring? > compared to BTCC 10 years ago, yes.

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> > I'll take boring over crass any day in that case. > > > > > > I'll take turbo charged, non traction controlled cars slipping and sliding > over boring, just floor it and steer F1 cars anyday. > > Steve Levett

See, it's easy to have a different opinion! cheers John

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> > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:RSF97.19944$[email hidden]...

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> >"JM" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > Why should you care? I'll talk with DGF the way I want. > > > > I don't care about anything except the semantic argument. > > > My "relation" with DGF shouldn't be at all important to your eyes. It's > between him and me. > > > > > LOL

well if you hang your underwear out in public, expect people to point out the skidmarks you missed! :D John

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > Don't knock something because you lack the insight to appreciate it. > > Jan. likewise. I would have responded with more detail, but it would just have been a simple mirror of your post, point for point. Or are we just going to "emperors new clothes" each other about the subtleties of our favourite motorsports that the other fails to pick up upon. cheers John

"Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3b671430$[email hidden]... > > There are much closer finishes in CART and NASCAR, usually under a coupleof > seconds. Most people I know watch the 1st corner in F1 and then do some > work, surf the net etc and have the TV on in the backround. 350 million people per race watch F1. About 8 (maybe 13, can't remember for sure) million per race for NASCAR. Why hasn't NASCAR amounted to more than a pimple on F1's butt if it's such great racing, and F1 is so boring? I like CART (my interest has gone way down over the past couple of years for some reason), but not many people watch it. David G Fisher

He made the mistake in choice of tires in almost all of the 12 races which led to poorer qualifying and race results? The team let him continue to make the wrong choice race after race? Come on. He's simply been slower. David G Fisher "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4WF97.15080$[email hidden]... > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:BxF97.56390$[email hidden]... > > I failed to address it because I think it's nonsense. Are you sayingthat > > the William's team is the only team that each race purposely put lesser > > tires on the same driver's car during qualifying because they didn'tcare > > how high he placed in qualifying? They certainly have a differentstrategy > > than all the other teams in F1. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > I think the idea has merit. Williams are Michelin's biggest partner inF1, > and Michelin needs every available piece of information possible. I > understand that the tyre choice lies ultimately with the driver, so JPM's > "mistake" might have been to take the tyres that are poor for qualifyingin

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> lieu of improved race performance- certainly Martin Brundle reminds us at > every race that certain Michelins don't "wear in" until about 14 laps in. > If I recall, JPM was opting for harder compounds than RS- they have to use > the same set of tyres for qualifying as the race, so it's a critical > decision, and arguably one that JPM has not made correctly. It doesn't > really help you to compare the driving talents of the two drivers, however > (my original point). > > They're not "lesser" tyres, as such, they have a strength which is

apparent > in race conditions, not qualifying. I don't know what the level of > commentary and information is where your TV feed comes from, but these are > "facts" mentioned by eg MBrundle, Tony Jardine, James Allen, as part ofthe

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> UK ITV F1 coverage. > > cheers > John > > >

It was a reasoned discussion to a degree David. That is, before you started drawing assumptions !! MS

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> > used to watch the guy as an unknown, racing in such windswept places as > > Thruxton on rainy bank holidays in front of crowds of maybe 5000 people. > > There we go. Sentimentality. > > David G Fisher >

David G Fisher (TROLL) wrote:

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> > Since you use the word "stupid", I feel free to use it to describe you. > > How stupid can you be to not understand this comment? "F1 drivers come from > a world wide talent pool of 6 billion people." Are you pretending to be a > dumb ass because you are still desperate to take shots at me? Or are you > simply an idiot? > > I'll explain ....

<SNIP> Whatever, David... But, what you have to remember is that you came across in your posts as such an ignorant and stupid twat. Therefor, I'm not so sure it's easy for the rest of us to figure out whether you think you're exaggerating or not. I keep forgetting you're just a stupid troll, sorry about that.

"Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3b671430 > I'll take turbo charged, non traction controlled cars slipping and sliding > over boring, just floor it and steer F1 cars anyday. If you really watch the races, you'll see the drivers finessing and sliding the cars in ways that are astounding. You didn't catch Alesi going through one of the chicanes on the second to last lap at Hockenheim, did you? It almost looked like he was moving at 2x speed because he was whipping the wheel back and forth so quickly. It was actually kind of funny looking. David G Fisher

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Don't knock something because you lack the insight to appreciate it. Jan, some things are better than others. David G Fisher

LOL. "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:HpG97.15239$[email hidden]...

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> well if you hang your underwear out in public, expect people to point out > the skidmarks you missed! > > :D > > John > > >

David G Fisher wrote:

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> > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3b671430$[email hidden]... > > > > There are much closer finishes in CART and NASCAR, usually under a couple > of > > seconds. Most people I know watch the 1st corner in F1 and then do some > > work, surf the net etc and have the TV on in the backround. > > 350 million people per race watch F1. About 8 (maybe 13, can't remember for > sure) million per race for NASCAR. Why hasn't NASCAR amounted to more than a > pimple on F1's butt if it's such great racing, and F1 is so boring? I like > CART (my interest has gone way down over the past couple of years for some > reason), but not many people watch it. >

This is a common theme with you. You always equate mass popularity with quality. You do it with racing games and you do it with motorsport.

No, I just think that if the racing was so exciting in NASCAR as it's fans say, and F1 is so boring, there would be a much, much, much, much different result when it comes to viewership. David G Fisher "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > David G Fisher wrote: > > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:3b671430$[email hidden]... > > > > > > There are much closer finishes in CART and NASCAR, usually under a

couple > > of > > > seconds. Most people I know watch the 1st corner in F1 and then dosome > > > work, surf the net etc and have the TV on in the backround. > > > > 350 million people per race watch F1. About 8 (maybe 13, can't rememberfor > > sure) million per race for NASCAR. Why hasn't NASCAR amounted to morethan a > > pimple on F1's butt if it's such great racing, and F1 is so boring? Ilike > > CART (my interest has gone way down over the past couple of years forsome > > reason), but not many people watch it. > > > > This is a common theme with you. You always equate mass popularity with > quality. You do it with racing games and you do it with motorsport.

If you believe there is an objective way to rank the relative merits of racing series then think again. Knocking CART because they use steel brakes or because the series is currently suffering more accidents than usual due to a large percentage of inexperienced drivers (I certainly never thought I'd be forced into thinking about Paul Tracy as a stalwart rather than a loose cannon) is more than a little short sighted, IMO. As for NASCAR, if you cannot appreciate the level of skill and courage required to do what these drivers do, you just don't understand the problem. People's appreciation of a series is not built or destroyed by the one race. I'm not trying to prove CART or NASCAR superior to F1, but I find myself ever more alienated as an F1 viewer. Every measure to slow the cars down in the interest of safety, costs or otherwise be it either to the cars or tracks has only served to reduce the ability or the drivers to "race" eachother and widen the chasm between the haves and have nots in F1. Don't tell me it's not infuriating to have he likes of Alesi, Fisichella and Button reduced to battling over the minor positions and then only provided "the big 4" have lost cars due to technical difficulties? Don't get me wrong, as an engineer I do admire F1 cars for their uncompromised purposefullness, but as a motorsports fan I believe the technology should serve to showcase the talents of the driver, rather than the other way round. Perhaps you should watch some bike racing to remind yourself what racing is about? Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. "JM" wrote...

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> <snip> > likewise. I would have responded with more detail, but > it would just have been a simple mirror of your post, > point for point. > > Or are we just going to "emperors new clothes" each other > about the subtleties of our favourite motorsports that the > other fails to pick up upon. > > cheers > John

Isn't it sad he has to overdrive that badly just to be competitive for the minor places, provided the fast cars have dropped out ? Jan. =--- "David G Fisher" wrote...

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> <snip> > You didn't catch Alesi going through one of the chicanes > on the second to last lap at Hockenheim, did you? It almost > looked like he was moving at 2x speed because he was > whipping the wheel back and forth so quickly. It was > actually kind of funny looking. > > David G Fisher

No. The artifically close racing of NASCAR is what's sad to watch. David G Fisher "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Isn't it sad he has to overdrive that badly just to be competitive for the > minor places, provided the fast cars have dropped out ? > > Jan. > =--- > "David G Fisher" wrote... > > <snip> > > You didn't catch Alesi going through one of the chicanes > > on the second to last lap at Hockenheim, did you? It almost > > looked like he was moving at 2x speed because he was > > whipping the wheel back and forth so quickly. It was > > actually kind of funny looking. > > > > David G Fisher > >

True, but it doesn't depend on the level of technology/money involved. CART may be in trouble with regard to attendance/coverage/driving talent and what not; NASCAR may be overcommercialised. But, currently, I find F1 to be an abomination of itself. I mean, having the pick of the brightest lights in motorracing, what has become of a racing series when talent no longer suffises to surmount circumstance? Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. "David G Fisher" wrote... > <snip> > Jan, some things are better than others. > > David G Fisher >

All one make? You mean all cars are the same? What series are you referring to? I don't like the rules in NASCAR which enable all the cars to race in a pack. It's just a show. David G Fisher "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> So you'd agree all one make racing is sad to watch? > > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:VZH97.56625$[email hidden]... > > No. The artifically close racing of NASCAR is what's sad to watch. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Isn't it sad he has to overdrive that badly just to be competitive for > the > > > minor places, provided the fast cars have dropped out ? > > > > > > Jan. > > > =--- > > > "David G Fisher" wrote... > > > > <snip> > > > > You didn't catch Alesi going through one of the chicanes > > > > on the second to last lap at Hockenheim, did you? It almost > > > > looked like he was moving at 2x speed because he was > > > > whipping the wheel back and forth so quickly. It was > > > > actually kind of funny looking. > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

> > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message make them have smaller fuel > tanks so they have to stop 3 times a race so they will have to all pit at > the same time Did you ever watch F1 back in the 80's? No refueling meant drivers could (if they wanted) take a huge lead at the front of the race, then have to deal with it by driving painfully slow laps at the end, in order to save fuel. The smart ones started slow, to conserve their speed for the end, when it counted. *That* was tactics - and many purists wish for those days to return. More refueling? No way...

What era are you referring to in F1 where all the cars were equal, and only talent decided who won each, very close race in which the whole field were neck and neck at the finish? I think you've got an idea in your head about what your watching in current F1, and you won't let go of it. MS and RB drive the Ferrari's, yet MS always comes out ahead. That's an example of talent overcoming circumstance. RS is outperforming JM. MH and DC go back and forth. Talent levels show through. How many drivers do you think should be battling for the win each week? If MS had retired last year, you'd probably have at least six drivers who'd have equal chances of winning almost any race this season. That's more than a quarter of the field. I find the battles farther back in the field as fun to keep track of as those in front. You just focus on who wins. I can't stand the thought of all cars being equal in F1. I want a series which has the world's greatest cars with the world's best drivers. That's F1. I absolutely love NFL football, but can't force myself to watch a quarter of college football because it's second best. David G Fisher "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > True, but it doesn't depend on the level of technology/money involved. > > CART may be in trouble with regard to attendance/coverage/driving talentand > what not; NASCAR may be overcommercialised. But, currently, I find F1 tobe

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> an abomination of itself. > > I mean, having the pick of the brightest lights in motorracing, what has > become of a racing series when talent no longer suffises to surmount > circumstance? > > Jan. > =--- > "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. > > "David G Fisher" wrote... > > <snip> > > Jan, some things are better than others. > > > > David G Fisher > > > >

I miss those "tactics -" too but I still watch all motorsports no matter who, what or where, When? well not into looking at old footage anymore, I'd rather puter sim-race then!! :) "briGuy" wrote: | Did you ever watch F1 back in the 80's? No refueling meant drivers could | (if they wanted) take a huge lead at the front of the race, then have to | deal with it by driving painfully slow laps at the end, in order to save | fuel. The smart ones started slow, to conserve their speed for the end, | when it counted. *That* was tactics - and many purists wish for thosedays | to return. More refueling? No way... --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Danny) writes: >Originally, the end-of-season >baseball championship was sponsored by a newspaper, the now defunct >"New York World". Hence, the name "World Series". Wow - I never knew that, and I'm American...<g> Thanks. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <9k724k$ndd$[email hidden]>, "Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> writes: >Why are you always shouting at each other that the other one is stupid? >Can't you discuss in a normal way? > Michael, it's simple, really. David and Frank don't like each other. That tends to cloud any discussion they have together... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <3b671430$[email hidden]>, "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> writes: >There are much closer finishes in CART and NASCAR, usually under a couple of >seconds. Most people I know watch the 1st corner in F1 and then do some >work, surf the net etc and have the TV on in the backround. Whoa...I thought I was the only one who did that...?<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <asX87.1649$[email hidden]>, "Txl" <[email hidden]> writes: >US-World series...how vain to call a national championship the WORLD series. > >Even if the US teams are the best at baseball, american football or >basketball, how can they call themselves WORLD champion when it's only a >north-american championship... >Ok, I'll give you the World Series<g>. But the basketball winners are called the NBA Champions, and the football winners are called Super Bowl Champions. I don't see "World" mentioned in those two... >The UEFA champion's league is not the WORLD champion's league of football, >and yet andy 1st league European team can kick ass of the best US football >team... >I don't follow soccer enough to know about that... :-) Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, "Nick G" <[email hidden]> writes: >Any why do you hate Michael? He is without doubt the most naturally gifted >grand prix driver out there. Damon Hill didn't have it, Mika Hakkinen >DEFINATELY doesn't have it, but he does. Montoya does. Ralf doesn't. >Coulthard doesn't. Barrichello doesn't. Anybody who saw him in testing at >Maranello back in '98 will justify that. Lap after lap going as sideways as >possible. The shots are amazing. Who are you responding to? You didn't quote anyone for a reference... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Only a small percent of them are racing fans. The rest just watch money. Put so much money in a fishing competition and 350 million people will watch fishing. "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7sG97.56418$[email hidden]... > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3b671430$[email hidden]... > > > > There are much closer finishes in CART and NASCAR, usually under acouple > of > > seconds. Most people I know watch the 1st corner in F1 and then do some > > work, surf the net etc and have the TV on in the backround. > > 350 million people per race watch F1. About 8 (maybe 13, can't rememberfor > sure) million per race for NASCAR. Why hasn't NASCAR amounted to more thana > pimple on F1's butt if it's such great racing, and F1 is so boring? I like > CART (my interest has gone way down over the past couple of years for some > reason), but not many people watch it. > > David G Fisher >

When you see yourself as a stupid guy than it's your problem. A "normal" way to discuss is to respect other people even if they have a different opinion and not to call them stupid or to offend them. No, there is no law about it, but it is a question of education and a sense of decency. And if it is a problem between the two of us why are you posting those things at the newsgroup for the public? -- Have several nice days !!! Michael Heymanns Team-Manager SRG IWSC Champion 2000 IPSC GT-Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 1999 TPTCC Champion 2000 TPTCC Champion 2001 www.srg-group.de www.teamsrg.de www.tptcc.de 1&1 Profiseller www.profiseller.de/shop/P1672791 "ymenard" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:UvE97.19281$[email hidden]... > >"Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Why are you always shouting at each other that the other one is stupid? > > Because I do. > > > Can't you discuss in a normal way? > > There's a new official law that states what is normal and what is not in a > discussion? > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.ymenard.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

"Put MS in a Jordan and he wouldnt win a race all season"? Those are brave, and I would suggest slightly misguided words. Schuey may be in one of the best sorted and reliable cars out there (although the FW23 seems quicker), but you can't honestly be suggesting he wouldn't be competitive, even in a Jordan? I can't help of think of Moss dominating at Monaco in a car 30 bhp down on everyone else...

"Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> writes: > There are much closer finishes in CART and NASCAR, usually under a couple of > seconds. Most people I know watch the 1st corner in F1 and then do some > work, surf the net etc and have the TV on in the backround. if you think a couple of secons is close, you should watch some bike racing. in WSB and Moto GP it's not uncommon to resort to photo-finishes. well, okay, it's not exactly common either, but still... -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy"

"David G Fisher" wrote... > What era are you referring to in F1 where all the > cars were equal, and only talent decided who won > each, very close race in which the whole field were > neck and neck at the finish? True, F1 has always been about "the edge", no question. Cars having an edge at certain tracks and performing slightly poorer on others has always happened. Seems to me though that in current F1 those differences are exaggerated. Example: at Silverstone both Williams suffered to the tune of 1.7s in qualifying. A driver can make up for a couple of tenths at most in the current, competitive field, 1.7s is beyond the scope of even RS and JPM. Track and (dry!) weather conditions making monkeys out of two talented drivers and the fastest car in the field. That didn't used to happen IIRC. Could be my imagination, but the outcome of many F1 races appears to be a forgone conclusion. Once the grid is known and the first couple of laps reveal the respective fuel strategies I find myself deciding on "the dominant driver/team of the week" and watch in amazement as most of the time the other teams don't seem able to take the fight to them. Our local commentators try to jazz things up by conveniently forgetting driver X hasn't pitted yet or speculating on another stop by dominant driver Y when clearly that's not how it's going to happen. That said, Hockenheim had the potential to deliver a race, but technical gremlins decided otherwise.

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> I think you've got an idea in your head about what > your watching in current F1, and you won't let go > of it. MS and RB drive the Ferrari's, yet MS always > comes out ahead. That's an example of talent > overcoming circumstance. RS is outperforming JM. > MH and DC go back and forth. Talent levels show > through.

The only true comparison is the team comparison... yes, I know. But I don't need to watch 17 GP's to know MS is a better driver than RB. DC and MH... I don't know whether it really goes back and forth or whether MH lets his guard down and then wakes up when DC starts to get on top. Ok, I might be operating under a misconception of what F1 should be like. Perhaps I expect too much. Tell me what I should reasonably expect from F1. > How many drivers do you think should be battling for > the win each week? If MS had retired last year, you'd > probably have at least six drivers who'd have equal > chances of winning almost any race this season. That's > more than a quarter of the field. More than one. I'm not saying MS is not an exceptional talent, I'm just saying the others are not *that* bad they couldn't occasionally touch him. > I find the battles farther back in the field as fun to > keep track of as those in front. You just focus on who > wins. Huh? -How in the world did you deduce that one? Quite the contrary... I'm adement the downfield battles are underrepresented in F1 coverage. It's no fun catching a battle in the back of a shot or hearing about it while the camera shows a lonely 3rd. On the other hand, while it's fun watching the battle for 10th, it's a surrogate, because kudos aside winning it doesn't help any of the participants one iota. > I can't stand the thought of all cars being equal in > F1. I want a series which has the world's greatest cars > with the world's best drivers. That's F1. Agreed, it must remain a battle of man and machine. I am just afraid there currently exists an insurmountable technical gap between the contenders and the also-rans. > I absolutely love NFL football, but can't force myself > to watch a quarter of college football because it's > second best. Very odd sentiment. A true fan of a given sport should be able to enjoy it on all levels, IMO. Jan. =---

In agreement with you there Steve, overall it's the best package. Reliability, power, handling, aero. Rafe Mc On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 23:14:21 +0100, "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Ferarri has a much better overal car then Williams, it's just that the BMW >has lots of power and that shows at Hockenheim and perhaps Monza but at >other track the Ferarri is far superior. I doubt anyone else here would >agree with your statement there.

>I watched a CART round (Canada- Molson) and saw a bunch of yahoos punting >each other off the road in second rate machinery. Well if that's what you took out of it, you must have been watching something else. Agreed, you get some weak, money-bloated drivers who shouldn't be on the grid, but then F1 had Marques, Mazzacane, etc. Don't bother putting bigoted opinions forward, it's not worth it. I'm not a fan of Nascar, but I'm not going to bag the series and the drivers because I don't like it. Learn some respect. Rafe Mc

>Perhaps you should watch some bike racing to remind yourself what racing is >about? Hear hear, at least the bikes inevitably put on a fantastic show, just what racing should be all about. Go Rossi! Rafe Mc

Reliability, power, handling, aero,drivers. "Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In agreement with you there Steve, overall it's the best package. > Reliability, power, handling, aero. > > Rafe Mc > > On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 23:14:21 +0100, "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Ferarri has a much better overal car then Williams, it's just that the

BMW > >has lots of power and that shows at Hockenheim and perhaps Monza but at > >other track the Ferarri is far superior. I doubt anyone else here would > >agree with your statement there. >

Indeed, but as far as "the best car" goes... On Wed, 1 Aug 2001 15:23:38 +0200, "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> Reliability, power, handling, aero,drivers. > >"Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> In agreement with you there Steve, overall it's the best package. >> Reliability, power, handling, aero. >> >> Rafe Mc >> >> On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 23:14:21 +0100, "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> >> wrote: >> >> >Ferarri has a much better overal car then Williams, it's just that the >BMW >> >has lots of power and that shows at Hockenheim and perhaps Monza but at >> >other track the Ferarri is far superior. I doubt anyone else here would >> >agree with your statement there. >> >

Strange how Barrichello isn't in front of Coulthard if he has a better car. Must be that Coultard is much better driver if he manage to be in front of Barrichello in a worse car. : ) "Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Indeed, but as far as "the best car" goes... > > On Wed, 1 Aug 2001 15:23:38 +0200, "Mario Petrinovic" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > Reliability, power, handling, aero,drivers. > > > >"Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> In agreement with you there Steve, overall it's the best package. > >> Reliability, power, handling, aero. > >> > >> Rafe Mc > >> > >> On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 23:14:21 +0100, "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> > >> wrote: > >> > >> >Ferarri has a much better overal car then Williams, it's just that the > >BMW > >> >has lots of power and that shows at Hockenheim and perhaps Monza but

at > >> >other track the Ferarri is far superior. I doubt anyone else herewould > >> >agree with your statement there. > >> > > >

>I find the battles farther back in the field as fun to keep track of as >those in front. But how can you bring yourself to watch it? They're not battling for the lead, so surely they're just as second-best as College "Football"... -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

>MS and RB drive the Ferrari's, yet MS always >comes out ahead. That's an example of talent overcoming circumstance. RS is >outperforming JM. MH and DC go back and forth. Talent levels show through. You've ignored a lot of factors there, though... -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

Are you somehow offended that I don't watch college football, or that it's called "football"? David G Fisher "Graeme Nash" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > >I find the battles farther back in the field as fun to keep track of as > >those in front. > > But how can you bring yourself to watch it? They're not battling for the > lead, so surely they're just as second-best as College "Football"... > > -- > Cheers! > Graeme Nash

David G Fisher wrote:

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> > Are you somehow offended that I don't watch college football, or that it's > called "football"? > > David G Fisher > > >I find the battles farther back in the field as fun to keep track of as > > >those in front. > > > > But how can you bring yourself to watch it? They're not battling for the > > lead, so surely they're just as second-best as College "Football"...

David, Still having trouble understanding plain English? Oh dear!

>"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote > PS.: Frank: how did you manage to make that herp/herd typo? -Those keysare > *miles* apart on a keyboard!! (relatively speaking) <g> Hooked on foniks workd phor me ;-) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

In article <9k5vol$3h3q$[email hidden]>, "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> writes: > There's only one way to even MS with rest of the pack. And >that is to give him much slower car. How about the BRM?<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>"Michael Heymanns" <[email hidden]> wrote > When you see yourself as a stupid guy than it's your problem. > A "normal" way to discuss is to respect other people even if they have a > different opinion and not to call them stupid or to offend them. No, there > is no law about it, but it is a question of education and a sense of > decency. LOL stop daddying me, it's too hilarious. > And if it is a problem between the two of us why are you posting those > things at the newsgroup for the public? Freedom of speech and choice. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > 350 million people per race watch F1. About 8 (maybe 13, can't rememberfor > sure) million per race for NASCAR. Why hasn't NASCAR amounted to more thana > pimple on F1's butt if it's such great racing, and F1 is so boring? I like > CART (my interest has gone way down over the past couple of years for some > reason), but not many people watch it. It's not important. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote > Ferarri has a much better overal car then Williams, it's just that the BMW > has lots of power and that shows at Hockenheim and perhaps Monza but at > other track the Ferarri is far superior. And Suzuka... and Indy... and Spa... The tide has turned. (Just watch Rubhino and you'll see the Ferrari ain't the best car anymore). -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"briGuy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9k7kms$ftm$[email hidden]... > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > make them have smaller fuel > > tanks so they have to stop 3 times a race so they will have to all pitat

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> > the same time > > Did you ever watch F1 back in the 80's? No refueling meant drivers could > (if they wanted) take a huge lead at the front of the race, then have to > deal with it by driving painfully slow laps at the end, in order to save > fuel. The smart ones started slow, to conserve their speed for the end, > when it counted. *That* was tactics - and many purists wish for those

days > to return. More refueling? No way... > > I remember Mansell going the distance without a stop and winning the race almost on the carcasses of his tyres. Great stuff. John

>Are you somehow offended that I don't watch college football, or that it's >called "football"? Not at all... Are you somehow offended that I asked a question you don't have an answer for, or are you just building the suspense? :-)) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > If you believe there is an objective way to rank the relative merits of > racing series then think again. > > Knocking CART because they use steel brakes or because the series is > currently suffering more accidents than usual due to a large percentage of > inexperienced drivers (I certainly never thought I'd be forced intothinking > about Paul Tracy as a stalwart rather than a loose cannon) is more than a > little short sighted, IMO. I never said any such thing. Next point. As for NASCAR, if you cannot appreciate the level > of skill and courage required to do what these drivers do, you just don't > understand the problem. > I never said any such thing. Next point. > People's appreciation of a series is not built or destroyed by the onerace. > I'm not trying to prove CART or NASCAR superior to F1, but I find myself > ever more alienated as an F1 viewer. Every measure to slow the cars downin

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> the interest of safety, costs or otherwise be it either to the cars or > tracks has only served to reduce the ability or the drivers to "race" > eachother and widen the chasm between the haves and have nots in F1. Don't > tell me it's not infuriating to have he likes of Alesi, Fisichella and > Button reduced to battling over the minor positions and then only provided > "the big 4" have lost cars due to technical difficulties? >

You can't have a level playing field with that kind of money. I think that the sport is on the upturn in terms of more competitors looking "good" for the future. > Don't get me wrong, as an engineer I do admire F1 cars for their > uncompromised purposefullness, but as a motorsports fan I believe the > technology should serve to showcase the talents of the driver, rather than > the other way round. > > Perhaps you should watch some bike racing to remind yourself what racingis > about? > I also engoy the Moto GPs and Superbikes, but for different reasons. I also like rallying, however, and given that there is no overtaking whatsoever in that sport, you have to ask what is the attraction. With F1, like rallying, for me, the attraction is the machines being driven at the limit. cheers John

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> Jan. > =--- > "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. > > "JM" wrote... > > <snip> > > likewise. I would have responded with more detail, but > > it would just have been a simple mirror of your post, > > point for point. > > > > Or are we just going to "emperors new clothes" each other > > about the subtleties of our favourite motorsports that the > > other fails to pick up upon. > > > > cheers > > John > >

"Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3b673e4b$[email hidden]... > It's the same as one make (formula ford, formula audi etc) racing where in > some formulas you're not allowed to change gear ratios, modify suspensionso

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> the best drivers come through to win etc. > > "just a show" and a damn good one, TOCA do the same by adding ballast to > winning cars to keep the racing close. I would much rather see 25 cars > finish within 2 secs than someone win by 40 secs with 3 cars on the lead > lap. >

The current BTCC is an absolute joke. Let's put the equivalent weight of Konichifuji in the Astra so the others have a chance. I'd rather watch DTM. > Unless youre in a Ferarri, Mclaren or a Williams you will not win an F1race > no matter how good you drive. Put MS in a Jordan and he wouldnt win a race > all season. That's not what racings about. > F1 has always been like that though, to be fair. cheers John

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> > -- > > Steve Levett > > ------------------ > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:xFI97.56651$[email hidden]... > > All one make? You mean all cars are the same? What series are you > referring > > to? > > > > I don't like the rules in NASCAR which enable all the cars to race in a > > pack. It's just a show. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > So you'd agree all one make racing is sad to watch? > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Steve Levett > > > > > > ------------------ > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:VZH97.56625$[email hidden]... > > > > No. The artifically close racing of NASCAR is what's sad to watch. > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in > message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > Isn't it sad he has to overdrive that badly just to be competitive > for > > > the > > > > > minor places, provided the fast cars have dropped out ? > > > > > > > > > > Jan. > > > > > =--- > > > > > "David G Fisher" wrote... > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > You didn't catch Alesi going through one of the chicanes > > > > > > on the second to last lap at Hockenheim, did you? It almost > > > > > > looked like he was moving at 2x speed because he was > > > > > > whipping the wheel back and forth so quickly. It was > > > > > > actually kind of funny looking. > > > > > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > > > > > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > On the other hand, while it's fun watching the battle for 10th, it's a > surrogate, because kudos aside winning it doesn't help any of the > participants one iota. Every position counts, more or less. It's not just about championship points, important though they are. > > Agreed, it must remain a battle of man and machine. I am just afraid there > currently exists an insurmountable technical gap between the contendersand > the also-rans. I think the gap is closing. At the beginning of the season, nobody would have put serious money on Williams being so competetive at certain tracks. When you have a team with a great engine, vs a team with a great chassis, that's when the differences can really shine. I think next year there will be even more competition for the championships. Soon we will have another minor "war" between Arrows and Jaguar, both running the Cosworth engine, like the BAR/Jordan contest currently. John

"Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > >I watched a CART round (Canada- Molson) and saw a bunch of yahoos punting > >each other off the road in second rate machinery. > > Well if that's what you took out of it, you must have been watching > something else. Agreed, you get some weak, money-bloated drivers who > shouldn't be on the grid, but then F1 had Marques, Mazzacane, etc. >

It was every other bleeding lap! They spent most of it under yellows. It was a complete disgrace and had no business being called a motor race. > Don't bother putting bigoted opinions forward, it's not worth it. I'm > not a fan of Nascar, but I'm not going to bag the series and the > drivers because I don't like it. Learn some respect. > Likewise. I'll have my opinion, based on what I have seen. Or do I have to put IMO against everything so you can get the message? John > Rafe Mc >

You had football in quotation marks, and since your from Britain, I was guessing you take some offense (many non-Americans do for some reason) to it's being used to name another sport. I do have a simple answer for your question. I follow every area (offense, defense, special teams, coaching strategy, weather effect) of an NFL game, and I follow all areas of an F1 race. David G Fisher "Graeme Nash" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > >Are you somehow offended that I don't watch college football, or thatit's

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> >called "football"? > > Not at all... Are you somehow offended that I asked a question you don't > have an answer for, or are you just building the suspense? :-)) > > -- > Cheers! > Graeme Nash

"JM" wrote... > <snip> > I never said any such thing. Next point. Excuse me? -so you never posted the following? <quote> I watched a CART round (Canada- Molson) and saw a bunch of yahoos punting each other off the road in second rate machinery. </quote> > <snip> > I never said any such thing. Next point. And you also did not utter the following in the same post? <quote> I watched the Daytona 400 NASCAR, and watched 40 or so anonymous 3rd rate saloon cars trundling round (actual speeds may be high, but relative speeds are almost identical- snorefest), sure they didn't stay in the same order, big deal, I can watch cars overtake all day long on the M1 motorway, doesn't make it exciting. </quote> <sarcasm> In that case I apologise unreservedly. </sarcasm> > > <snip> > You can't have a level playing field with that > kind of money. Perhaps, I must admit I have an instinctive dislike to the attitude towards money (as if it were something to revered in itself, rather than a means to an end) in F1 hangers-on circles. Don't get me wrong I don't mind manufacturers and teams spending a fortune in an effort to go fast and I do not begrudge the people who actually contribute to the race effort their paycheck, I'm just sure I could never get along with anyone who believes it's glamourous to hang around in this "world". I also don't mind the FIA/Ecclestone handing out financial support on the basis of merit, dangling a carrot as it were. I just question the wisdom of dangling the carrot a mile in front of the donkey. I am very much aware in today's image driven market, nobody likes to see their cars lose. However, to take it to a point where it becomes a matter of outspending the other competitor in an attempt to reduce the risk of that happening, I think you've crossed a certain line where sport and innovation take a back seat. > I think that the sport is on the upturn in terms of > more competitors looking "good" for the future. If and when Renault, BAR, Jaguar, perhaps Arrows and Toyota manage to produce a more or less competitive effort and the FIA shows the good sense to leave the rules alone for a while (to allow the technology to filter down), we might see something resembling my idea of what F1 should be like. Given that McLaren, Ferrari, Williams, Sauber and Jordan (though the commitment of the latter may be questioned) won't be presenting themselves as sitting ducks either, I don't see it happening any time soon unless the FIA accept the people employed by those teams are way smarter than the spods they got working on the "make 'm slower/safer"-rules. > > <snip> > I also engoy the Moto GPs and Superbikes, but for > different reasons. That one will need some explaining... > I also like rallying, however, and given that there is > no overtaking whatsoever in that sport, you have to ask > what is the attraction. That's simple to answer... it's several orders of magnitude more clear in rallying the drivers do things with cars us mere mortals can never hope to acchieve. > With F1, like rallying, for me, the attraction is the > machines being driven at the limit. Hmmmm... then how come you call stock cars (NASCAR) being driven at the limit boring? Jan. =---

Like Senna did in Detroit I believe. I think he was the only one that didn't make a pit stop that day. He couldn't have had much tire left at the end. Wayne Hutchison "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:O9_97.20302$[email hidden]...

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> > "briGuy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9k7kms$ftm$[email hidden]... > > > > "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > make them have smaller fuel > > > tanks so they have to stop 3 times a race so they will have to all pit > at > > > the same time > > > > Did you ever watch F1 back in the 80's? No refueling meant drivers

could

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> > (if they wanted) take a huge lead at the front of the race, then have to > > deal with it by driving painfully slow laps at the end, in order to save > > fuel. The smart ones started slow, to conserve their speed for the end, > > when it counted. *That* was tactics - and many purists wish for those > days > > to return. More refueling? No way... > > > > > > I remember Mansell going the distance without a stop and winning the race > almost on the carcasses of his tyres. > Great stuff. > > John > > >

>>If and when Renault, BAR, Jaguar, perhaps Arrows and Toyota manage toproduce a more or less competitive effort and the FIA shows the good sense to leave the rules alone for a while (to allow the technology to filter down) << What do you think of the idea of allowing teams to sell their year-old cars to other teams? I think this could allow a bunch more teams into F1 (which of course isn't possible under the current Concorde agreement) and might make for some very interesting combinations on the track <G>. Wayne Hutchison

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > I also like rallying, however, and given that there is > > no overtaking whatsoever in that sport, you have to ask > > what is the attraction. > > That's simple to answer... it's several orders of magnitude more clear in > rallying the drivers do things with cars us mere mortals can never hope to > acchieve.

I'm sure us mere mortals could drive a modern F1 car with any degree of success either. I'm very confident I would have a much easier time with a rally car. > > > With F1, like rallying, for me, the attraction is the > > machines being driven at the limit. > > Hmmmm... then how come you call stock cars (NASCAR) being driven at the > limit boring? The cars are like boats with wheels, and the limit is reached on the same two turns lap after lap. I fired up the N4 demo the other day and couldn't keep awake after 15 laps. David G Fisher

"O" come'on Fran�ois!! We all know you are the classic "eeebonics" graduate.. hahahaha :o)~ "ymenard" wrote:

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| Hooked on foniks workd phor me ;-) | -- | -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> | >"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote | > PS.: Frank: how did you manage to make that herp/herd typo? -Those keys | are | > *miles* apart on a keyboard!! (relatively speaking) <g>

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

My man Graeme is always "Spot-on!" :) "Graeme Nash" wrote:

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| Not at all... Are you somehow offended that I asked a question you don't | have an answer for, or are you just building the suspense? :-)) | -- | Cheers! | Graeme Nash | >Are you somehow offended that I don't watch college football, or that

it's | >called "football"? | --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > With F1, like rallying, for me, the attraction is the > > > machines being driven at the limit. > > > > Hmmmm... then how come you call stock cars (NASCAR) being driven at the > > limit boring? > > The cars are like boats with wheels, and the limit is reached on the same > two turns lap after lap. I fired up the N4 demo the other day and couldn't > keep awake after 15 laps.

"If you think oval racing is boring, you are not driving fast enough" - me :) Olav

I wasn't referring to drivers, remember. And the season covers quite a few more races. Agreed, at Hockenheim qual DC was faster than RB. MH was also faster than MS, looked like McLaren had the car sorted for qualifying. But the race saw the McLarens go backwards pretty quickly, so we saw Ferrari with the overall better car. I think the Constructor's Championship is the best indicator... Rafe Mc On Wed, 1 Aug 2001 18:53:24 +0200, "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> Strange how Barrichello isn't in front of Coulthard if he >has a better car. Must be that Coultard is much better driver >if he manage to be in front of Barrichello in a worse car. : ) > > >"Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Indeed, but as far as "the best car" goes... >> >> On Wed, 1 Aug 2001 15:23:38 +0200, "Mario Petrinovic" >> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> > Reliability, power, handling, aero,drivers. >> > >> >"Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> >news:[email hidden]... >> >> In agreement with you there Steve, overall it's the best package. >> >> Reliability, power, handling, aero. >> >> >> >> Rafe Mc >> >> >> >> On Mon, 30 Jul 2001 23:14:21 +0100, "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >Ferarri has a much better overal car then Williams, it's just that the >> >BMW >> >> >has lots of power and that shows at Hockenheim and perhaps Monza but >at >> >> >other track the Ferarri is far superior. I doubt anyone else here >would >> >> >agree with your statement there. >> >> >> > >> >

lol, good one there. On 01 Aug 2001 20:55:08 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>In article <9k5vol$3h3q$[email hidden]>, "Mario Petrinovic" ><[email hidden]> writes: > >> There's only one way to even MS with rest of the pack. And >>that is to give him much slower car. > >How about the BRM?<g> > >Eldred

"David G Fisher" wrote... > > <snip> > I'm sure us mere mortals could drive a modern F1 > car with any degree of success either. I'm very > confident I would have a much easier time with a > rally car. You misread people on purpose, don't you? -I said it's clearer rally drivers do things with cars which are beyond the reach of nearly everyone because it *is* clearer. Watching them on TV you can see them sliding going down narrow, tree-lined dirt roads at incredible speeds. You can see the knocks both the cars and the driver takes from the rough surface. You can see them flirting with rock faces and sheer drops on the asphalt rallies. All of this happens in F1 too (minus the trees, the potholes, the rockfaces and the ravines ;-)), of course, but it isn't as noticable. Having driven a Group A prepared Ford Sierra Cosworth 4x4, I can assure you it's nothing like your average road car. That said, if you're used to driving a stick shift you might get it going within 10 attemps. Took me 3 tries just to drive off the first time. > > <snip> > The cars are like boats with wheels, and the limit is > reached on the same two turns lap after lap. I fired > up the N4 demo the other day and couldn't keep awake > after 15 laps. Oh well, there's no arguing against prejudice. Jan. =---

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "JM" wrote... > > <snip> > > I never said any such thing. Next point. > > Excuse me? -so you never posted the following? > > <quote> > I watched a CART round (Canada- Molson) and saw a > bunch of yahoos punting each other off the road in > second rate machinery. > </quote> >

quote yourself, I never said that CART was shite due to steel brakes or an influx of inexperienced drivers. Which is what you were saying. I said what I saw. Quote: "Knocking CART because they use steel brakes or because the series is currently suffering more accidents than usual due to a large percentage of inexperienced drivers (I certainly never thought I'd be forced into thinking about Paul Tracy as a stalwart rather than a loose cannon) is more than a little short sighted, IMO." You assume too much. You inferred reasons behind my comments that were not there (see use of "because") steel brakes? who the hell mentioned steel chuffing brakes? I can easily turn the other half of the comment around- it's shortsighted to write F1 off as a procession due to the current inequality in team budgets and capability.

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> > <snip> > > I never said any such thing. Next point. > > And you also did not utter the following in the same post? > > <quote> > I watched the Daytona 400 NASCAR, and watched 40 > or so anonymous 3rd rate saloon cars trundling > round (actual speeds may be high, but relative > speeds are almost identical- snorefest), sure > they didn't stay in the same order, big deal, I > can watch cars overtake all day long on the M1 > motorway, doesn't make it exciting. > </quote> >

I didn't say it doesn't take skill and determination to drive a Winston Cup car, as you can see (well maybe not you, but people who can read properly) the above quote says nothing about the skill of the drivers. In fact the drivers are not mentioned at all: quote: "As for NASCAR, if you cannot appreciate the level of skill and courage required to do what these drivers do, you just don't understand the problem." what problem? Where did I (in your convenient quotation) even mention anything derogatory about the drivers of the cars? > <sarcasm> In that case I apologise unreservedly. </sarcasm> thanks a lot for putting words in my mouth to suit your own (shallow) argument. > > I am very much aware in today's image driven market, nobody likes to see > their cars lose. However, to take it to a point where it becomes a matterof > outspending the other competitor in an attempt to reduce the risk of that > happening, I think you've crossed a certain line where sport andinnovation > take a back seat. > It's always been like that with F1, don't let anybody's rose tinted glasses fool you.

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> > I think that the sport is on the upturn in terms of > > more competitors looking "good" for the future. > > If and when Renault, BAR, Jaguar, perhaps Arrows and Toyota manage to > produce a more or less competitive effort and the FIA shows the good sense > to leave the rules alone for a while (to allow the technology to filter > down), we might see something resembling my idea of what F1 should be

like. > Given that McLaren, Ferrari, Williams, Sauber and Jordan (though the > commitment of the latter may be questioned) won't be presenting themselves > as sitting ducks either, I don't see it happening any time soon unless the > FIA accept the people employed by those teams are way smarter than thespods > they got working on the "make 'm slower/safer"-rules. two x five drivers fighting for the championship is more than enough. there will always be teams that are "waxing" or "waning" in terms of success. Crist, I remember being fed up with the constant success of an almost untouchable Bennetton team. > > > > <snip> > > I also engoy the Moto GPs and Superbikes, but for > > different reasons. > > That one will need some explaining... Motorbikes, as a mode of transport, or a style statement do nothing for me whatsover. I enjoy watching the racing, as it is close, and not due to manufactured reasons. I've mentioned that with F1 just to watch the machines be driven is entertainment for me, qualifying is the highlight of my saturdays. Watching the events unfold on a sunday is rivetting- not in a wheel to wheel, five across the line at the end (ala SBikes etc), sense, but in the broader picture of strategy, reliability, tactics etc.

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> > > I also like rallying, however, and given that there is > > no overtaking whatsoever in that sport, you have to ask > > what is the attraction. > > That's simple to answer... it's several orders of magnitude more clear in > rallying the drivers do things with cars us mere mortals can never hope to > acchieve. >

It's obvious to me every time I watch an F1 race, every corner taken at speed. Sometimes it's almost like someone hit the fast forward on the footage, but it's real time driver reactions. > > With F1, like rallying, for me, the attraction is the > > machines being driven at the limit. > > Hmmmm... then how come you call stock cars (NASCAR) being driven at the > limit boring? It doesn't look like "the limit", it looks like a *very fast* cruise (again I speak of superspeedways in general, and the daytona 400 in particular). Also the machines themselves hold no interest to me, aesthetically, or engineering wise. cheers John

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > All of this happens in F1 too (minus the trees, the potholes, therockfaces > and the ravines ;-)), of course, but it isn't as noticable. > to be fair, you were answering *my* statement that I enjoy rallying and F1, for at least the reason that I can see the cars being driven at the limit in both. I don't think it's fair to turn your reply into a "general" statement. As I mention in my reply, F1 is just as clear to me as WRC, in terms of perceiving the ragged edge. YMMV of course, but you're not me, and it was my observation. > Having driven a Group A prepared Ford Sierra Cosworth 4x4, I can assureyou > it's nothing like your average road car. That said, if you're used to > driving a stick shift you might get it going within 10 attemps. Took me 3 > tries just to drive off the first time. > Coming from a country where land barges with autoboxes are not the norm, I have to say that the above statement does make me chuckle. John

>I do have a simple answer for your question. There, that wasn't too hard, was it? :-) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

You all are saying that rallying, CART, NASCAR, F1 etc are boring. You are all nuts. Driving at 230mph with your wheels 1/4 inch from somebody else driving at 230mph around corners for 5/6 laps a time is pretty f***ing amazing, if you ask me. Espec. as they are absolutely at the limit, and a slight problem, such as sneezing in turn 2, will result in a complete totalling of both your car and most of the rest of the field. rallying is the most difficult motor sport known to man, and potentially the most dangerous. if you don't like them, why are you in a newsgroup called RECREATION.AUTOMOBILES??? So shut up, or get out. Nick.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Jonesy) writes:

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>"Put MS in a Jordan and he wouldnt win a race all season"? Those are >brave, and I would suggest slightly misguided words. > >Schuey may be in one of the best sorted and reliable cars out there >(although the FW23 seems quicker), but you can't honestly be >suggesting he wouldn't be competitive, even in a Jordan? > >I can't help of think of Moss dominating at Monaco in a car 30 bhp >down on everyone else...

I think Michael is a GREAT driver. But, I really don't think that a Jordan is a good enough car to let him get close. Consider when Mike was winning all the races and championships. Michael is a better driver than Mika, but Mika had better equipment. Your example of Moss at Monaco was during an era where driver talent was much more important than it is now. Now, IMO, it's probably about 80% car, 20% driver. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Nick G wrote:

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> > You all are saying that rallying, CART, NASCAR, F1 etc are boring. > > You are all nuts. > > Driving at 230mph with your wheels 1/4 inch from somebody else driving at > 230mph around corners for 5/6 laps a time is pretty f***ing amazing, if you > ask me. Espec. as they are absolutely at the limit, and a slight problem, > such as sneezing in turn 2, will result in a complete totalling of both your > car and most of the rest of the field. > > rallying is the most difficult motor sport known to man, and potentially the > most dangerous. > > if you don't like them, why are you in a newsgroup called > RECREATION.AUTOMOBILES??? > > So shut up, or get out. > > Nick.

Snotty little twat! I find F1 a little boring, at times, to watch and I have a right to express that opinion on the subject. So there you go, I didn't 'shut up' and I'm not going to 'get out'.... AND there's not really very much you can do about it! Condescendingly yours! Gerry Aitken PS: So shut up, or get out!!

Well, answer my question. Why did you have the word football in quotation marks? Or is that too hard for you? :-p David G Fisher "Graeme Nash" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > >I do have a simple answer for your question. > > There, that wasn't too hard, was it? :-) > > -- > Cheers! > Graeme Nash

It's easy to drive light cars ; ), which can turn on a dime. Real man drive real cars. And turn left, of course. P.S.: I love this tread . Adds r.a.s. the thing every simulation is lacking. Life. "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8E1a7.58726$[email hidden]...

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> > > The cars are like boats with wheels, and the limit is reached on the same > two turns lap after lap. I fired up the N4 demo the other day and couldn't > keep awake after 15 laps. > > David G Fisher > >

In article <[email hidden]>, "Nick G" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>You all are saying that rallying, CART, NASCAR, F1 etc are boring. > >You are all nuts. > >Driving at 230mph with your wheels 1/4 inch from somebody else driving at >230mph around corners for 5/6 laps a time is pretty f***ing amazing, if you >ask me. Espec. as they are absolutely at the limit, and a slight problem, >such as sneezing in turn 2, will result in a complete totalling of both your >car and most of the rest of the field. > >rallying is the most difficult motor sport known to man, and potentially the >most dangerous. > >if you don't like them, why are you in a newsgroup called >RECREATION.AUTOMOBILES??? > >So shut up, or get out. > >Nick.

You're trying to stop people from giving their opinions(or even better, stop people from arguing about them)? Hehe - you'd have better luck getting Microsoft to ditch the 'license renewal' fiasco...<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <9kcef9$dd1o$[email hidden]>, "Mario Petrinovic" <[email hidden]> writes: > It's easy to drive light cars ; ), which can turn on a dime. Real >man drive real cars. And turn left, of course. > > P.S.: I love this tread . Adds r.a.s. the thing every simulation is >lacking. Life. Why, thank you! Well, I *started* it...<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"JM" wrote... > > <snip> > quote yourself, I never said that CART was shite due to > steel brakes or an influx of inexperienced drivers. > Which is what you were saying. > I said what I saw. So to you "yahoo" doesn't mean "gung-ho/devoid of skill" and "second rate" doesn't mean "inferior to"? > > <snip> > You assume too much. You inferred reasons behind > my comments that were not there (see use of > "because") steel brakes? who the hell mentioned > steel chuffing brakes? I did, as an example of a point where ChampCars are deemed technically inferior to F1 cars. I also used the less offensive term "inexperienced" to describe some of the drivers. Don't play the semantics game with me John. Which ever way you turn it, you, without motivation, called CART's drivers hacks and labeled the cars as inferior to F1 cars. If that's your opinion that's fine, if you care to motivate it, I might even take back the shortsighted comment. > I can easily turn the other half of the comment > around- it's shortsighted to write F1 off as a > procession due to the current inequality in team > budgets and capability. I don't think I actually used the word procession, but let's not nick pick.<g> Seriously, I do believe that's a big part of it. Lesser teams like Minardi and Prost continue to improve all the time, otherwise they wouldn't be able to qualify themselves for the races. However the rate of development at Ferrari, McLaren and Williams, being able to outspend them 10-1 (just a figure, I have no idea of the actual relative budget) is higher. Though the increment are probably smaller, this still means the goalposts are being continuously moved. Not to mention the big budget teams will find it easier to adapt to rule changes the FIA keeps applying to make things safer and "fairer" (cfr. traction control).

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> > <snip> > I didn't say it doesn't take skill and > determination to drive a Winston Cup car, as you can > see (well maybe not you, but people who can read > properly) the above quote says nothing about the > skill of the drivers. In fact the drivers are not > mentioned at all:

My level of reading English is fine, thank you (how's your level of reading Dutch, BTW? ;-)). But you indeed have a point there. > <snip> > what problem? Where did I (in your convenient > quotation) even mention anything derogatory about > the drivers of the cars? > thanks a lot for putting words in my mouth to suit > your own (shallow) argument. Fair enough, I apologize for the comment. > > <snip> > It's always been like that with F1, don't let > anybody's rose tinted glasses fool you. Hmmm... I agree F1 has always been about winning, ruthlessly so in fact. Perhaps it's rather nowadays technology allows teams to pay more attention to details and variables which used to be able to upset even the best laid plans, making domination seem more clinical than it used to be? > > <snip> > two x five drivers fighting for the championship is > more than enough. There will always be teams that > are "waxing" or "waning" in terms of success. There's only 3 or 4 in contention for the F3000 championship, where the cars are supposed to be equal, so the teams getting somewhat on par shouldn't affect your premise > Crist, I remember being fed up with the constant > success of an almost untouchable Bennetton team. I seem to remember both drivers titles going almost to the wire?... Certainly alledgedly having to run your rival off the road means they still had a shot at winning? -And their car was capable of doing so? > > <snip> > Motorbikes, as a mode of transport, or a style > statement do nothing for me whatsover. I enjoy > watching the racing, as it is close, and not due to > manufactured reasons. Exactly... > I've mentioned that with F1 just to watch the machines > be driven is entertainment for me, qualifying is the > highlight of my saturdays. It's interesting to note the differences in poise between the cars and to see how the drivers deal with that, yes. > Watching the events unfold on a sunday is rivetting > - not in a wheel to wheel, five across the line at the > end (ala SBikes etc), sense, but in the broader picture > of strategy, reliability, tactics etc. There is that aspect, of course, what annoys me however is the driver's apparent inability to excercise their craft (getting ahead of the next guy!!). > > <snip> > It's obvious to me every time I watch an F1 race, > every corner taken at speed. Sometimes it's almost > like someone hit the fast forward on the footage, > but it's real time driver reactions. I hold it's still a more detached viewing experience. Perhaps because of the full face helmets in F1 and not being able to see facial expression. You do not see the intensity in the driver's eyes, you do not see the strain of the G-forces. Compare to in car footage of Francois Dellecours<sp?> Also, for someone who's been following F1 since the mid 70's the cars nowadays give far less visible cues of being on the edge. > > <snip> > It doesn't look like "the limit", it looks like a *very > fast* cruise (again I speak of superspeedways in general, > and the daytona 400 in particular). Look again... closer. Perhaps you should do the following experiment... take a buddy (and his car) to a cloverleaf and do the following experiment. Drive one of the turns in the following fashion at say 55mph: armco - 4 inches - you - 4 inches - buddy then come back here and talk about limits in NASCAR racing. > Also the machines themselves hold no interest to me, > aesthetically, or engineering wise. Fair enough. As an engineer and aware of most of the physics behind the cars, though, I can assure you, despite the relative low-tech nature of the cars, the average lap speeds acchieved by these stock cars are truly amazing. Had I not seen them done live on TV, I'm sure I would have said "impossible!!" if someone had put the premise to me. Cheers, Jan. =---

"JM" wrote...

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> > <snip> > to be fair, you were answering *my* statement that I enjoy > rallying and F1, for at least the reason that I can see the > cars being driven at the limit in both. I don't think it's > fair to turn your reply into a "general" statement. As I > mention in my reply, F1 is just as clear to me as WRC, in > terms of perceiving the ragged edge. YMMV of course, but > you're not me, and it was my observation.

I was momentarily talking from the average punter's point of view. Obviously we *know* the F1 drivers are on the edge, but how much of what you see of this fact is related to the knowledge that "they have to be"? -The only time the edge is really "in your face" with respect of F1 is in the rain, IMO. > > <snip> > Coming from a country where land barges with autoboxes > are not the norm, I have to say that the above statement > does make me chuckle. So do I (Belgium) and I had been driving a stick shift for 6 years and even autocrossed a Golf GTI before I was allowed "a go" at the wheel of that car (I was supposed to co-drive for the owner). And yes, the mechanic (yup, singular, we're talking bush league rallying here) found it very amusing. I must add the Cozzy is regarded as docile in this respect. I'd love to be around when DGF is allowed to attempt to persuade a Lancia Delta Integrale into motion. <g> Jan. =---

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > So do I (Belgium) I like Hercule Poirot. :-p David G Fisher

Jan Verschueren wrote: > I don't think I actually used the word procession, but let's not nick > pick.<g> The term is "nit pick". I know, I shouldn't be nit picking the picking of nits... but it just seemed so appropriate at this juncture. :-) Andre Ming

Damn... I know that. Just missed it while proof reading. ;-( Jan. =--- "Andre Ming" wrote...

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> The term is "nit pick". > > I know, I shouldn't be nit picking the picking of nits > ... but it just seemed so appropriate at this juncture. > > :-) > > Andre Ming

Who is a ficticious Belgian... but actually not a bad caricature of a Brussels bourgois at the time. Too bad the character in the TV series has a Parisian accent. Jan. =--- "David G Fisher" wrote... > <snip> > I like Hercule Poirot. :-p

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "JM" wrote... > > > <snip> > > quote yourself, I never said that CART was shite due to > > steel brakes or an influx of inexperienced drivers. > > Which is what you were saying. > > I said what I saw. > > So to you "yahoo" doesn't mean "gung-ho/devoid of skill" and "second rate" > doesn't mean "inferior to"? >

no yahoo doesn't mean devoid of skill. Explain the embarrassingly large amount of time wasting and tedious accidents in another way then- divine intervention? second rate *cars*. Yes CART cars are technically inferior to F1, that is unquestionable.

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> > > <snip> > > You assume too much. You inferred reasons behind > > my comments that were not there (see use of > > "because") steel brakes? who the hell mentioned > > steel chuffing brakes? > > I did, as an example of a point where ChampCars are deemed technically > inferior to F1 cars. I also used the less offensive term "inexperienced"

to > describe some of the drivers. Don't play the semantics game with me John. > Which ever way you turn it, you, without motivation, called CART's drivers > hacks and labeled the cars as inferior to F1 cars. > Without motivation? My comments were directed to the previous (long since lost) posts that the F1 racing was dull. I watched three races from three formulae in the same week (the NASCAR is delayed a lot before hitting eurosport) and it was an ideal opportunity to post a mirror comment regarding NASCAR and CART. I called CARTs drivers Yahoos, they were at the Molson. I stand by the comment that CART cars are 2nd rate compared to F1. It's not a question of semantics, it's a question of not assuming that my argument vs your view point is the same as every other argument. In response to my comments you have *added* words and ideas which I never expressed, and thus altered the context. Most of your argument vs me regarding the above comments seem to be directed more at someone else, or some other comments that I'm not responsible for or privy to. > > I don't think I actually used the word procession, but let's not nick > pick.<g> > > Seriously, I do believe that's a big part of it. Lesser teams like Minardi > and Prost continue to improve all the time, otherwise they wouldn't beable > to qualify themselves for the races. However the rate of development at > Ferrari, McLaren and Williams, being able to outspend them 10-1 (just a > figure, I have no idea of the actual relative budget) is higher. Thoughthe > increment are probably smaller, this still means the goalposts are being > continuously moved. Not to mention the big budget teams will find iteasier > to adapt to rule changes the FIA keeps applying to make things safer and > "fairer" (cfr. traction control). > Ferrari won't have the kind of budget they've had recently for ever. They had major backing from the factory to win the Driver's World Championship, and a budget that even the likes of McLaren were complaining about. Rich buisnessmen wouldn't keep buying these "poor" teams if there wasn't an incentive. For some, just owning an F1 team is enough. A "poor" F1 car is still better than a lot of other racing machines. > > Hmmm... I agree F1 has always been about winning, ruthlessly so in fact. > Perhaps it's rather nowadays technology allows teams to pay more attention > to details and variables which used to be able to upset even the best laid > plans, making domination seem more clinical than it used to be? You'll forgive me if I don't recall the exact details, I believe it was 1968, when wings were being fitted to F1 cars for the first time. One of the Loti suffered an horrific accident due to failure of the rear wing. Colin Chapman's immediate response? Saunter over to Bruce McLaren and tell him he's pulling his cars out of the race, and "ooh, your wings are attached just the same as our, that could fall off at any moment, guv." (paraphrased). A nice bit of footage, but it shows that the win at all costs mentality was there always.

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> > > > <snip> > > two x five drivers fighting for the championship is > > more than enough. There will always be teams that > > are "waxing" or "waning" in terms of success. > > There's only 3 or 4 in contention for the F3000 championship, where the

cars > are supposed to be equal, so the teams getting somewhat on par shouldn't > affect your premise > Indeed, even in "controlled" formulae there's an advantage. The only exception that immediately springs to mind, is the Renault Clio Sport Cup (don't even know if it's still running). All cars are leased, but particularly, the cars are "swapped" between drivers based on performance, so the poorest performing driver got the last race's winning car, likewise the last race winner got the "worst" car for the next race, and so on up and down the field. That is a level playing field. > > It's interesting to note the differences in poise between the cars and to > see how the drivers deal with that, yes. > I accept that someone who is "looking in from outside" as it were wouldn't care much for individual cars, and watching them go through their paces, but I've followed F1 for more than 16 years.

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> > Watching the events unfold on a sunday is rivetting > > - not in a wheel to wheel, five across the line at the > > end (ala SBikes etc), sense, but in the broader picture > > of strategy, reliability, tactics etc. > > There is that aspect, of course, what annoys me however is the driver's > apparent inability to excercise their craft (getting ahead of the next > guy!!).

All too often, when they do get to race, there's the drivers whining in some way about "safety" even Rubens is quoted saying "It was fun, and exciting, but was too close really" (paraphrase I don't have the article to hand) maybe they do need a "wake up" call. Or maybe F1 needs an Aussie or two, the kind of driver that would say "Bloody great race, nearly shit meself through that bit though!" Instead of the usual sniping (RS about JPM, JV+DC about red flags etc)

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> > > > <snip> > > It's obvious to me every time I watch an F1 race, > > every corner taken at speed. Sometimes it's almost > > like someone hit the fast forward on the footage, > > but it's real time driver reactions. > > I hold it's still a more detached viewing experience. Perhaps because of

the > full face helmets in F1 and not being able to see facial expression. Youdo > not see the intensity in the driver's eyes, you do not see the strain ofthe > G-forces. Compare to in car footage of Francois Dellecours<sp?> I'm more interested in the cars than the drivers, to be honest. Also Richard Burns' constant whinging has marred my affection for WRC. > Also, for someone who's been following F1 since the mid 70's the cars > nowadays give far less visible cues of being on the edge. > Aye, powerslides aren't as sideways as they used to be, but it's always a revelation to watch the hand movements on the in car footage. > armco - 4 inches - you - 4 inches - buddy > > then come back here and talk about limits in NASCAR racing. > I'm talking about my perspective as a spectator. I know that it is fast, dangerous, and skillful, but it looks dull to me as a spectator. Much like speedboat racing. > > Also the machines themselves hold no interest to me, > > aesthetically, or engineering wise. > > Fair enough. As an engineer and aware of most of the physics behind the > cars, though, I can assure you, despite the relative low-tech nature ofthe > cars, the average lap speeds acchieved by these stock cars are truly > amazing. Had I not seen them done live on TV, I'm sure I would have said > "impossible!!" if someone had put the premise to me. > some of the fastest cars ever built this century would be called dinosaurs by todays standards. With rolling starts on super speedways, I can see where the speed comes from (a sacrifice against acceleration) what's the rev limit on those engines? John > Cheers, > > Jan. > =--- > >

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > I was momentarily talking from the average punter's point of view.Obviously > we *know* the F1 drivers are on the edge, but how much of what you see of > this fact is related to the knowledge that "they have to be"? -The onlytime > the edge is really "in your face" with respect of F1 is in the rain, IMO. > That's fair enough, but to have a dig at DGF (a popular sport round here it seems) was unfair, given the previous context of the conversation. Or at least in my opinion. > So do I (Belgium) and I had been driving a stick shift for 6 years andeven > autocrossed a Golf GTI before I was allowed "a go" at the wheel of thatcar > (I was supposed to co-drive for the owner). And yes, the mechanic (yup, > singular, we're talking bush league rallying here) found it very amusing.I > must add the Cozzy is regarded as docile in this respect. I'd love to be > around when DGF is allowed to attempt to persuade a Lancia Delta Integrale > into motion. <g> Well maybe you were taking the piss for the benefit of the americans, I don't know <shrug> I've driven fast road cars, fast, and Formula Ford, it just seemed like you were making a big deal out of operating a clutch <g> cheers John

>Well, answer my question. Why did you have the word football in quotation >marks? Purely as a bit of a joke :-) Yes - I'm from Britain and a big football (soccer) fan, and I can't see why a game which has limited use of the foot and a funny shaped ball can't be known popularly by another name... Perhaps if it were remotely possible for a European to understand the game I'd think differently :-) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

I knew it. :-) But I have no idea why it's called football. If I ever did hear an explanation, it's long been forgotten. David G Fisher "Graeme Nash" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > >Well, answer my question. Why did you have the word football in quotation > >marks? > > Purely as a bit of a joke :-) > > Yes - I'm from Britain and a big football (soccer) fan, and I can't see > why a game which has limited use of the foot and a funny shaped ball > can't be known popularly by another name... > > Perhaps if it were remotely possible for a European to understand the > game I'd think differently :-) > > -- > Cheers! > Graeme Nash

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8aLa7.68151$[email hidden]...

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> I knew it. :-) > > But I have no idea why it's called football. If I ever did hear an > explanation, it's long been forgotten. > > David G Fisher >

"Rugby" Was originally called "Rugby Football", the story being that some enterprising lad decided he'd have a better chance of scoring if he picked the ball up and ran with it in a football (soccer) game. Everything after that is just history, there's certainly enough similarity between US Football and Rugby for the "Rugby Football" name to have been carried across, dropping the Rugby part, and then evolving the game to the current sport. I used to watch NFL every sunday on channel 4, but haven't for years. cheers John (UK)

Thanks for that. They would of had no idea back then that the name would seem odd in 2001. David G Fisher "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:FBMa7.390$[email hidden]...

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> > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8aLa7.68151$[email hidden]... > > I knew it. :-) > > > > But I have no idea why it's called football. If I ever did hear an > > explanation, it's long been forgotten. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > "Rugby" Was originally called "Rugby Football", the story being that some > enterprising lad decided he'd have a better chance of scoring if he picked > the ball up and ran with it in a football (soccer) game. > > Everything after that is just history, there's certainly enough similarity > between US Football and Rugby for the "Rugby Football" name to have been > carried across, dropping the Rugby part, and then evolving the game to the > current sport. > > I used to watch NFL every sunday on channel 4, but haven't for years. > > cheers > John (UK) > > >

"JM" wrote... > > <snip> > no yahoo doesn't mean devoid of skill. Explain the > embarrassingly large amount of time wasting and > tedious accidents in another way then- divine > intervention? Impatience, inexperience and underestimation of the track conditions. > second rate *cars*. Yes CART cars are technically > inferior to F1, that is unquestionable. The sanctioned technologies are less advanced than those used in F1, true. Whatever this says about the level of engineering in the individual chassis or engines is a call I don't wish to make.

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> > <snip> > Without motivation? My comments were directed to > the previous (long since lost) posts that the F1 > racing was dull. I watched three races from three > formulae in the same week (the NASCAR is delayed a > lot before hitting eurosport) and it was an ideal > opportunity to post a mirror comment regarding > NASCAR and CART. > > I called CARTs drivers Yahoos, they were at the > Molson. I stand by the comment that CART cars are > 2nd rate compared to F1. > > It's not a question of semantics, it's a question > of not assuming that my argument vs your view point > is the same as every other argument. In response > to my comments you have *added* words and ideas > which I never expressed, and thus altered the context. > Most of your argument vs me regarding the above > comments seem to be directed more at someone else, or > some other comments that I'm not responsible for or > privy to.

Call me thick as mud, but I still don't get it. You mean to say your appreciation of F1 over CART & NASCAR is not a general one, but only applicable to the aforementioned 3 races? > > <snip> > Ferrari won't have the kind of budget they've had > recently for ever. They had major backing from the > factory to win the Driver's World Championship, > and a budget that even the likes of McLaren were > complaining about. If so, they will drop out of the top ranks, 'cos some other manufacturer is going to seize the opporutnity to start spending and grab the title. > Rich buisnessmen wouldn't keep buying these "poor" > teams if there wasn't an incentive. For some, just > owning an F1 team is enough. A "poor" F1 car is > still better than a lot of other racing machines. Better to be the pauper of the top level series than king of the bush league... that is a known sentiment.

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> > <snip> > Indeed, even in "controlled" formulae there's an > advantage. The only exception that immediately > springs to mind, is the Renault Clio Sport Cup > (don't even know if it's still running). All > cars are leased, but particularly, the cars are > "swapped" between drivers based on performance, > so the poorest performing driver got the last > race's winning car, likewise the last race winner > got the "worst" car for the next race, and so on > up and down the field. > > That is a level playing field.

There is still Clio based racing, but I don't think in that format. > > <snip> > I accept that someone who is "looking in from outside" > as it were wouldn't care much for individual cars, and > watching them go through their paces, but I've followed > F1 for more than 16 years. I've followed F1 for 25 years now and, like I said before, I find the only times where I can really tell there's something special going on behind the wheel is when the driver is faced with a particularly evil setup or chassis quirk for that particular track. Perhaps the digital feed has better camera angles to the free to air ones, I don't know, but I hold that under normal circumstances it's not clear whether the drivers just drive the cars or have mastered them. > > <snip> > All too often, when they do get to race, there's > the drivers whining in some way about "safety" > even Rubens is quoted saying "It was fun, and > exciting, but was too close really" (paraphrase I > don't have the article to hand) Oh, but *that* I can understand. When I race online, in hindsight, I much prefer a lonely 3rd to a hotly contested 6th. The fight for 6th may have been *fun* and exhilarating, but at the end of the day the 3rd is a better result, took much less effort and I gave less trouble in getting to sleep after (as opposed to adrenaline fueled insomnia). And I'm not even actually risking life and limb! > maybe they do need a "wake up" call. Or maybe F1 > needs an Aussie or two, the kind of driver that > would say "Bloody great race, nearly shit meself > through that bit though!" Instead of the usual > sniping (RS about JPM, JV+DC about red flags etc) I agree think a couple of Alan Jones, no-nonsense style drivers could give the F1 driver image a much needed boost. > > <snip> > I'm more interested in the cars than the drivers, > to be honest. Also Richard Burns' constant whinging > has marred my affection for WRC. I wonder if he truly believes he can beat the other guys. > > <snip> > Aye, powerslides aren't as sideways as they used to > be, but it's always a revelation to watch the hand > movements on the in car footage. In car footage is very interesting in that respect, yes. Seeing which of the cars give their drivers a workout, > > <snip> > I'm talking about my perspective as a spectator. > I know that it is fast, dangerous, and skillful, > but it looks dull to me as a spectator. Much like > speedboat racing. Ok, fair enough, I was just hoping to make you see much of your appreciation of F1 is also dependant on your knowledge of the scale of the problem. > > <snip> > some of the fastest cars ever built this century > would be called dinosaurs by todays standards. Can't say I agree... a GT40 or a Porsche917 is still an awesome piece of machinery. Go back further and I'm even more in awe of cars like the Mercedes W196. For an age without computers and CAE/CAM that is one very well thought out and beautifully engineered piece of kit. > With rolling starts on super speedways, I can see > where the speed comes from (a sacrifice against > acceleration) what's the rev limit on those engines? I think about 9200/9600 on accelleration, without restrictor plate. For continuous running on large ovals and super speedways it depends on the layout and the lenght of the race I guess. I heard 8600 mentioned for the New Hampshire race. Jan. =---

"JM" wrote... > That's fair enough, but to have a dig at DGF (a > popular sport round here it seems) was unfair, > given the previous context of the conversation. > Or at least in my opinion. This time I think you read too much into that... > > <snip> > Well maybe you were taking the piss for the benefit > of the americans, I don't know <shrug> I was. > I've driven fast road cars, fast, and Formula Ford, it > just seemed like you were making a big deal out of > operating a clutch <g> It isn't, unless one's trying just that bit too hard to put 320 odd bhp down onto the road without much in the way of drama. I had witnessed Johan's first few meters in the car: he'd nearly had it swap ends on him and had to lock everything up to avoid going into a ditch before having driven 50m. I was not going to let this happen to me (famous last words <g>)... so I gingerly blipped it a couple times and slowly let out the clutch while ever so slightly increasing pressure on the throttle... <clunk>, stalled it. Ok, restart, gonna have be a little braver... This time I gave it the better part of 3800rpm and was a bit more decisive with the clutch. Would have been a good launch if I'd been ready for the sudden accelleration. I wasn't and it caused my foot to come off the accellerator... <clunk> stalled it again. The 3rd time I put it all together and, I must say, though I probably lacked the talent to get the most out of it, it was a wonderfull car to drive, even at 60%. Jan. =---

> "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > I was momentarily talking from the average punter's point of view. > Obviously > > we *know* the F1 drivers are on the edge, but how much of what you seeof > > this fact is related to the knowledge that "they have to be"? -The only > time > > the edge is really "in your face" with respect of F1 is in the rain,IMO. Granted, I haven't been to an F1 race in ten years, but has it changed so much? In 91 you could absolutely see how far they were going. In 94 degree weather. Senna, of course, threatened to tear the wheels off the car at every opportunity. He would get in late to something and stand the car on it's nose before setting it into a controlled spin. I swear I saw him hit the wall at the exit at one corner. But he didn't. Just that close. He outbraked back markers at the hairpin when he should have waited a few corners. They'd be setting up their turn in while he was many lengths back. But he was going so unbelievably fast that his only choice was do dive under. They never saw it coming and he'd slide in like all four were locked and you never really could tell when he got back on the gas but at some point you noticed he was powering around that tight turn. Again, like a controlled spin. Berger was surprisingly smooth but you could literally hear the car creak as he was plowing through corners. Prost had an inferior car and was driving the thing to the hilt. It looked as if he was going to twitch off the track every time he hit the brakes. And, as much as I'd hate to admit it, DeChesaris did a fine job in the 7UP Jordan. An impressive car and an equally impressive drive by the crash meister. When he exited certain corners, you could see the car spring up off the tires as they released from lateral force. The car was tight and he slid it to the barrier just like the best guys were doing. Inches. Aarmco and inches. It was almost exaggerated. Like they were putting on a show for the lazy American race fans, driving at 11 tenths. -- "Racing! - Science for the action minded." mark

all i was saying is that to come in here and say stuff like NASCAR, it's just a big roundabout, not much fun at all, really - rather stick a knife up my arse. that is a bit of a dodgy position to be in inside a newsgroup dedicated to cars as a recreational subject. i have no problem with people with those viewpoints (however much i disagree), but i do believe marching into a gay liberation parade as the worlds largest homophobe is not the best way of expressing your views. never mind, eh?

"Graeme Nash" <> Perhaps if it were remotely possible for a European to understand the > game I'd think differently :-) > > -- > Cheers! > Graeme Nash It is EASY to understand American Football. You run real fast, you pound the holy-crappola out of your opponent, and you spike the ball while ripping off your helmet to gain maximum tv exposure. nuff-said.... dave henrie

This is so funny & true!! You did it again Mr Comic Relief :) "Dave Henrie" wrote: | It is EASY to understand American Football. You run real fast, youpound | the holy-crappola out of your opponent, and you spike the ball whileripping | off your helmet to gain maximum tv exposure. nuff-said.... | dave henrie --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

ymenard wrote:

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> > >"Ronald Stoehr" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Check out the medal distribution of recent olympics or any other truly > world > > wide sport event. I don't see a trend justifying your claim... > > Countries with less access to technology simply cannot cope with the big > countries, even if they have much superior population. They sometime excel > at certain events because of natural talent of the global type of human > being that lives between it's boundaries. The people living in the USofA > have enough free time for entertainment, more then any other country in the > world I would say.

That's funny. We lazy European guys get 5-6 weeks vacation, how much is it now in the USofA? Still about 2 weeks? 35 hours work/week, too! Lots of free time and it shows... ;) > Because of that and their access to technology, it's plain obvious that they > can develop their talents more then any other country in the world. Do you > really think the people in some African countries have time to develop their > talents when for many they have difficulties to simply survive on the > planet? Which is why sports like football are incredibly popular (for other > reasons also but still...). Check out some athletics competitions, and think again. > > Doing sports in a luxury. Yes, maybe golf, yachting and motor racing, but lots of other sports just require talent and lots of work (if doping is out of the question ;). -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > Call me thick as mud, but I still don't get it. You mean to say your > appreciation of F1 over CART & NASCAR is not a general one, but only > applicable to the aforementioned 3 races? I used an example of one weekend's viewing as a counter argument against an "F1 is tedious" post. I still watch CART and NASCAR when I can, in the hope that either will appear interesting. > > Better to be the pauper of the top level series than king of the bush > league... that is a known sentiment. Although Minardi do run in F3000 also. Maybe they're covering both options. > I've followed F1 for 25 years now and, like I said before, I find the only > times where I can really tell there's something special going on behindthe > wheel is when the driver is faced with a particularly evil setup orchassis > quirk for that particular track. Perhaps the digital feed has bettercamera > angles to the free to air ones, I don't know, but I hold that under normal > circumstances it's not clear whether the drivers just drive the cars orhave > mastered them. > Standard ITV coverage, the camera work is provided by a TV company local to the track, so it varies in quality from race to race. > Oh, but *that* I can understand. When I race online, in hindsight, I much > prefer a lonely 3rd to a hotly contested 6th. The fight for 6th may have > been *fun* and exhilarating, but at the end of the day the 3rd is a better > result, took much less effort and I gave less trouble in getting to sleep > after (as opposed to adrenaline fueled insomnia). And I'm not evenactually > risking life and limb! > It devalues what I (as a spectator) thought was great racing, when the drivers say "I'd have prefered it if it didn't happen that way". > > I'm more interested in the cars than the drivers, > > to be honest. Also Richard Burns' constant whinging > > has marred my affection for WRC. > > I wonder if he truly believes he can beat the other guys. > I'm just ashamed to be English when he flaps his gums. Although, Colin, like Mansell, can send you to sleep with his voice, he's a great driver with a much better attitude. > > Ok, fair enough, I was just hoping to make you see much of yourappreciation > of F1 is also dependant on your knowledge of the scale of the problem. > F1 is an acquired taste, maybe, it's just my experience seems to differ to those who find F1 dull.

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> > > <snip> > > some of the fastest cars ever built this century > > would be called dinosaurs by todays standards. > > Can't say I agree... a GT40 or a Porsche917 is still an awesome piece of > machinery. Go back further and I'm even more in awe of cars like the > Mercedes W196. For an age without computers and CAE/CAM that is one very > well thought out and beautifully engineered piece of kit.

I was thinking pre war- SoS era (1937) and before- to the punter in the street, they would be called dinosaurs, regardless of their performance. I wouldn't call a GT40 a dinosaur though! John