Busch North Watkins Race on NBC

Wow.... I just witnessed one of the best road races I've ever seen....anywhere, any form of racing. The Busch North race at Watkins was just televised on NBC......it ended just a few minutes ago! It was like watching a good quality N4 online race.....at Watkins. The lead changed about as often as the drivers who were taking care of their tires. Because of the cars they race in that series, the setups were allowing lots of sliding......power driving the high-speed turns. Several drivers put themselves in a position to dominate.....only to be knocked back by bad luck, making the wrong choice in attempting to pass back-markers....or not taking care of their tires after assuming the lead. With the level of drivers in this series (they are not accustomed to road racing), I saw a lot of the same mistakes I see rookie N4 drivers make at Watkins. This is a testimony to online sim racing......its a lot more realistic than it is often given credit for....especially in N4 online racing against real human drivers! I even saw the stupid......"move over" mistake made by a back marker being passed by one of the leaders. Instead of holding his line....letting the overtaking car choose when, where and how to pass.....he moved over to the right....just as the overtaking care had committed to passing on the right.....and the back marker got tagged in the rear....taking both cars out! You don't see that mistake in real-world racing much anymore. I think that's because by the time someone reaches the level in pro racing where they are competing in a race that's being televised, they've long ago learned not to make that stupid "moving over" mistake. You still see this way too much in online racing on N4....particularly on the two road courses! Without an online racing school.....or any kind of online race licensing program....I guess this is to be expected? Even so, it still doesn't make it any less irritating when somebody takes you out this way. It seems like it should just be plain old "common sense"....but I guess it isn't. Its also probably due a lot to the fact that in N4....with the difficulty level of running it on the road courses......the leaders are the "experienced drivers"......and they are not "back markers" very often...are they? Nope! With two laps to go.......two drivers ran nose-to-tail for the lead. On the white flag lap......the driver in the second position was all over the back end of the lead car.....it was a classic application of the old "fill the mirrors" trick! On the last lap, going into T-1.....the leader overcooked it into the turn, ran off into the sand pit....and finished 13th! He'd already been passed going into T-9 by overcooking that turn.......doing it again going into T-1 (now chasing instead of leading) was clearly the result of his frustration for having made that mistake going into T-9. It was very interesting to watch real-world, professional race drivers behave exactly like so many rookie road course drivers I've observed racing N4 online. Too cool! I wish I would have taped this race, dang it. Tom

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wphd7.53487$[email hidden]... ... > It was very interesting to watch real-world, professional race drivers > behave exactly like so many rookie road course drivers I've observedracing > N4 online. So you're saying they wrecked each other intentionally and then threatened to kill each other afterwards? Sorry, but somebody had to say it. ;o)

I didn't enjoy the race that much. That last lap reminded me way to much of my first lap in a GT-1 at Watkins! <VBG> Of course, back then they didn't have the sand traps and of course, we ran the boot. ;) -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450 http://www.Husted.cc "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wphd7.53487$[email hidden]... > Wow.... > > I just witnessed one of the best road races I've ever seen....anywhere, any > form of racing. > > The Busch North race at Watkins was just televised on NBC......it ended just > a few minutes ago! > > It was like watching a good quality N4 online race.....at Watkins. The lead > changed about as often as the drivers who were taking care of their tires. > Because of the cars they race in that series, the setups were allowing lots > of sliding......power driving the high-speed turns. Several drivers put > themselves in a position to dominate.....only to be knocked back by bad > luck, making the wrong choice in attempting to pass back-markers....or not > taking care of their tires after assuming the lead. With the level of > drivers in this series (they are not accustomed to road racing), I saw a lot > of the same mistakes I see rookie N4 drivers make at Watkins. This is a > testimony to online sim racing......its a lot more realistic than it is > often given credit for....especially in N4 online racing against real human > drivers! > > I even saw the stupid......"move over" mistake made by a back marker being > passed by one of the leaders. Instead of holding his line....letting the > overtaking car choose when, where and how to pass.....he moved over to the > right....just as the overtaking care had committed to passing on the > right.....and the back marker got tagged in the rear....taking both cars > out! You don't see that mistake in real-world racing much anymore. I think > that's because by the time someone reaches the level in pro racing where > they are competing in a race that's being televised, they've long ago > learned not to make that stupid "moving over" mistake. You still see this > way too much in online racing on N4....particularly on the two road courses! > Without an online racing school.....or any kind of online race licensing > program....I guess this is to be expected? Even so, it still doesn't make > it any less irritating when somebody takes you out this way. It seems like > it should just be plain old "common sense"....but I guess it isn't. Its > also probably due a lot to the fact that in N4....with the difficulty level > of running it on the road courses......the leaders are the "experienced > drivers"......and they are not "back markers" very often...are they? Nope! > > With two laps to go.......two drivers ran nose-to-tail for the lead. On the > white flag lap......the driver in the second position was all over the back > end of the lead car.....it was a classic application of the old "fill the > mirrors" trick! On the last lap, going into T-1.....the leader overcooked > it into the turn, ran off into the sand pit....and finished 13th! He'd > already been passed going into T-9 by overcooking that turn.......doing it > again going into T-1 (now chasing instead of leading) was clearly the result > of his frustration for having made that mistake going into T-9. > > It was very interesting to watch real-world, professional race drivers > behave exactly like so many rookie road course drivers I've observed racing > N4 online. Too cool! I wish I would have taped this race, dang it. > > Tom > > > >

Tom are you sure you weren't watching a papyloop race?? hahaha "Tom Pabst" wrote: <snipped> | It was very interesting to watch real-world, professional race drivers | behave exactly like so many rookie road course drivers I've observedracing | N4 online. Too cool! I wish I would have taped this race, dang it. | | Tom --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

Also: U wait U !@#$%% idiots I'm gonna kick yer mother!@#$%^&."..:) "Haqsau" wrote: | So you're saying they wrecked each other intentionally and then | threatened to kill each other afterwards? | | Sorry, but somebody had to say it. ;o) |"Tom Pabst" wrote: | ... | > It was very interesting to watch real-world, professional race drivers | > behave exactly like so many rookie road course drivers I've observed | racing | > N4 online. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

"Thom j." wrote: > > Also: U wait U !@#$%% idiots I'm gonna kick yer mother!@#$%^&."..:) But it was warp, U @$$hole! -- Fester

Let me check dah' @$$hole... Nope not dat!! :) "Uncle Fester" wrote:

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| But it was warp, U @$$hole! | -- | | Fester | "Thom j." wrote: | > Also: U wait U !@#$%% idiots I'm gonna kick yer mother!@#$%^&."..:)

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Why do you keep posting these off-topic post TOM? For the third time: GOTO the NASCARS groups! Man I really thought you knew better than this!!??!! -- ed_

I wish I would've remembered to tape it. I had to go out of town for the day and didn't think about the race being on until about an hour after leaving. Regarding "moving over", I know well enough when being lapped or overtaken to hold my line, but *common sense actually tells me* to move to awkward locations on the race track in an effort to stay out of the way. Of course I don't do that anymore, but that, for me, is actually what common sense dictates. -- ------------------------------------- Morgan Vincent Wooten http://home.earthlink.net/~morganv00/ static gplrank = 7.63; ------------------------------------- "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wphd7.53487$[email hidden]... > Wow.... > > I just witnessed one of the best road races I've ever seen....anywhere, any > form of racing. [] N4 online. Too cool! I wish I would have taped this race, dang it. > > Tom > > > > >

Do you mean Tom or Thom? ed_ I guess you mean Tom P? "Ed Solheim" wrote:

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| Why do you keep posting these off-topic post TOM? | | For the third time: GOTO the NASCARS groups! | | Man I really thought you knew better than this!!??!! | | -- | ed_

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Ed Solheim wrote: > > Why do you keep posting these off-topic post TOM? > > For the third time: GOTO the NASCARS groups! > > Man I really thought you knew better than this!!??!! Ed - did you read it ;)?? Gerry

Morgan V. Wooten <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Xond7.3407$[email hidden]... > Regarding "moving over", I know well enough when being lapped orovertaken > to hold my line, but *common sense actually tells me* to move toawkward > locations on the race track in an effort to stay out of the way. Ofcourse I > don't do that anymore, but that, for me, is actually what commonsense > dictates. My pet method (in R/C racing) of letting a faster car past is to wait for a tightish corner and then go too deep/wide - effectively out-braking myself. The quicker guy's past before he even realises. Jonny

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wphd7.53487$[email hidden]... > I just witnessed one of the best road races I've ever seen....anywhere,any > form of racing. > > The Busch North race at Watkins was just televised on NBC......it endedjust > a few minutes ago! I chase the Busch North Series entire schedule and have been for the last 5 or so years, and do PR work for a handful of teams that run it it, and while I haven't really watched the coverage yet aside from kinda following it on the TV in the media center at the Glen, I was impressed by our 'boys' (apologies to #04 Carey Heath). It's a great mix of guys who have been around forever and some who are just breaking in, and precious few have any road racing experience coming to the series. But they adapt well and put on a whale of a show. Part of the reason why they do a lot more slippin and slidin than the usual TV racers there is because they run on a rock-hard bias-ply tire rather than the radial. Sure makes for entertaining racing. -- Claff http://www.BNSracing.com Parsimonious Racing #93 Claff Promotions Chevrolet in NEORA-STC, IWCC, LRL, and NEORA-WC

LOL....... "Wrecked intentionally".....no! "Threatened to kill each other afterwards." Absolutely.....it happens in every form of racing I've ever been involved in. There's something about having a blood adrenaline level of about 40%.....gives you the urge to kill someone when you are pissed off! I know that I've mouthed off to someone (which is a nice way of saying, "threatened to kill them....their kids, wife, dog....anything they like...I'll kill them too...lol) after many races....but mostly in my rookie year in SCCA. After that, I learned a lesson from TC Kline...who was my first pro racing crew chief. TC's Rule: Never talk to another driver or their team member(s) about an on-track incident until at least one hour after you've gotten out of the race car.....even if that was by crawling out the window because you were on your lid! Its a good rule....I've tried to follow it ever since I raced for TC. Seems the effects of adrenaline on your judgment and choice of words isn't very good. Alcohol is kinder on those two attributes by far. Tom

Thom.... I tell you....I very easily could have been watching a PapyLoop replay. Because these guys were all pretty much rookie road course drivers (there were a few exceptions)....it was more like N4 pick-up racing at Watkins.....than not. You just don't see the WC drivers doing those kinds of stupid things.......although they are not beyond stupid driving errors either (like Dale Jarrett's "move" near the end of the race today that put him in the T1 sand trap for the second time.....trying to stick a nose under Martin....under braking...into T1...AFTER Martin had already started toward the apex......then Jarrett realizes his mistake and wheel-hops the car into the side of Martin....that was S.T.U.P.I.D. in a big way.....and he admitted it in the post-race interview). When you are coming up through the ranks in real-world racing....you usually only make those stupid kinds of mistakes once or twice....before you vividly learn your lesson. Usually, "you" are paying the bills for race car repairs......or the hospital bills for your repair....early in your career! These things have a remarkable ability to wise you up! You know? But in sim racing online.....we don't have any racing schools......we don't have a race licensing program.....and we don't have the ability to interface with our fellow drivers immediately following an online race.....at least not one that allows for very effective communication. And, we don't have to pay for car damage repair or hospital bills! We also don't have officials who call you to the "Chief Steward's trailer" at the end of a race (been there, done that....a few times and its not a fun experience you want to repeat). That in particular...is one thing I really miss about racing on the old TEN server system. The chat rooms were somehow more "lively"....and discussions about the races afterwards were more prevalent. VROC does a better job of that than the Sierra.com system does.....because not all the drivers of a race exit to the same chat room after the race is over. And, most of the races I've run in.....nobody hangs around in the race server to use that chat room capability....at least not often and not usually the drivers who need talking to. It would be great if we had a newsgroup just dedicated to discussing racing incidents....."rules of the road" for racing on the various types of tracks (those are the un-official rules that every driver follows - sort of a pact made with all fellow drivers).....and official racing rules and procedures. But then....how would we get the word out to rookie online drivers about this newsgroup? That's a problem. Tom

Okay Ed.....I forgive you for making that post without reading mine. Tom

Alan.... I was impressed...it was a great show and obviously the drivers were experienced race car drivers. The fact that those guys could pull off a race start the way they did was a testimony to their professional driving. But, it was apparent pretty soon after the start of the race, that these guys were not experienced road racing drivers. I didn't know about the tires......that makes a lot of sense because I couldn't figure out why so many of the driver's seemed to set their cars up to slide like that. It was a terrific race......and the series can be proud of the race they put on at Watkins! In my opinion, at least. NBC certainly got their money's worth with that broadcast. Tom

Morgan....... You are not alone. Most every new driver in a "licensing school" has the same thoughts about being a moving chicane. I guess it comes from the fear of being actually out on the race track to start with.....with other experienced race drivers....for the very first time. I know I thought the same as you.....before I went through the SCCA race licensing school. But, its one of the first lectures you get in those schools.....at least all the ones I've seen. Usually on the afternoon session of "day one" of race licensing school is when passing is first allowed by the students. The lecture usually comes just before the group is let go on the track (along with the lecture about sweeping your dash and your mirrors with your eyes regularly....and fully understanding the flags and what they mean). Even so....it seems many drivers don't understand the passing/being passed "rules of the road" until they screw up during a race. That's what I meant by "seems like common sense to me"......to let the drivers who are faster than you decide how, when and where they will pass you. Of course, they also have a responsibility to you (the driver being overtaken) to pass you safely and in a way that doesn't screw up your lap either! I've seen more than my share of drivers who are overtaking another driver do some pretty stupid things, too! So, there is another side to this coin.....as well. Tom

Wow now I have something to ask TC about at the Solo II Nationals this year. Dave Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bzJd7.59078$[email hidden]...

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> LOL....... > > "Wrecked intentionally".....no! > > "Threatened to kill each other afterwards." Absolutely.....it happens in > every form of racing I've ever been involved in. There's something about > having a blood adrenaline level of about 40%.....gives you the urge to

kill

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> someone when you are pissed off! I know that I've mouthed off to someone > (which is a nice way of saying, "threatened to kill them....their kids, > wife, dog....anything they like...I'll kill them too...lol) after many > races....but mostly in my rookie year in SCCA. After that, I learned a > lesson from TC Kline...who was my first pro racing crew chief. TC's Rule: > Never talk to another driver or their team member(s) about an on-track > incident until at least one hour after you've gotten out of the race > car.....even if that was by crawling out the window because you were on

your > lid! Its a good rule....I've tried to follow it ever since I raced forTC.

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> Seems the effects of adrenaline on your judgment and choice of words isn't > very good. Alcohol is kinder on those two attributes by far. > > Tom > > >

Hmmm.. I guess a was really really *really* tired then ! :-) Sorry Tom - guess the topic fooled me... -- ed_ Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> skrev i news:YWJd7.59098$[email hidden]... > Okay Ed.....I forgive you for making that post without reading mine. > > Tom > > >

Tom even tho I was jesting this is my point.. I don't consider Nascar drivers good RC racers. I watched the WG race & wasnt impressed at all. DJ drove like a rookie & ended in the kittylitter. Since most do spend 95% of their track time on ovals, they are at a disadvantage! Also I have raced WG myself years ago.. I paid my dues in $doe & in hospital $bills but with 2'wheels instead of 4. So I know all about the 'anger' after a race & how we all get overly brain-dead' with too much adrenaline running thru our veins right after! In regards to the Nascar 'boyz' well many of those laps looked just like a papyloop race.. no more, no less If I were a top paid Nascar driver I would have been embarressed with my showing at WG. jmho -Thom_j. "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:dUJd7.59095$[email hidden]...

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| Thom.... | | I tell you....I very easily could have been watching a PapyLoop replay. | Because these guys were all pretty much rookie road course drivers (there | were a few exceptions)....it was more like N4 pick-up racing at | Watkins.....than not. You just don't see the WC drivers doing those kinds | of stupid things.......although they are not beyond stupid driving errors | either (like Dale Jarrett's "move" near the end of the race today that put | him in the T1 sand trap for the second time.....trying to stick a nose

under | Martin....under braking...into T1...AFTER Martin had already startedtoward | the apex......then Jarrett realizes his mistake and wheel-hops the carinto | the side of Martin....that was S.T.U.P.I.D. in a big way.....and headmitted | it in the post-race interview). | | When you are coming up through the ranks in real-world racing....youusually | only make those stupid kinds of mistakes once or twice....before youvividly | learn your lesson. Usually, "you" are paying the bills for race car | repairs......or the hospital bills for your repair....early in yourcareer! | These things have a remarkable ability to wise you up! You know? | | But in sim racing online.....we don't have any racing schools......wedon't | have a race licensing program.....and we don't have the ability tointerface | with our fellow drivers immediately following an online race.....at least | not one that allows for very effective communication. And, we don't haveto | pay for car damage repair or hospital bills! We also don't have officials | who call you to the "Chief Steward's trailer" at the end of a race (been | there, done that....a few times and its not a fun experience you want to | repeat). That in particular...is one thing I really miss about racing on | the old TEN server system. The chat rooms were somehow more"lively"....and | discussions about the races afterwards were more prevalent. VROC does a | better job of that than the Sierra.com system does.....because not all the | drivers of a race exit to the same chat room after the race is over. And, | most of the races I've run in.....nobody hangs around in the race serverto | use that chat room capability....at least not often and not usually the | drivers who need talking to. | | It would be great if we had a newsgroup just dedicated to discussingracing | incidents....."rules of the road" for racing on the various types oftracks | (those are the un-official rules that every driver follows - sort of apact | made with all fellow drivers).....and official racing rules andprocedures.

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| But then....how would we get the word out to rookie online drivers about | this newsgroup? That's a problem. | | Tom | | |

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"Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:T9Wd7.99959$[email hidden]...

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> Tom even tho I was jesting this is my point.. I don't consider Nascar > drivers good RC racers. I watched the WG race & wasnt impressed > at all. DJ drove like a rookie & ended in the kittylitter. Since most do > spend 95% of their track time on ovals, they are at a disadvantage! > Also I have raced WG myself years ago.. I paid my dues in $doe & > in hospital $bills but with 2'wheels instead of 4. So I know all about > the 'anger' after a race & how we all get overly brain-dead' with too

My uncle grew up in that area... he flipped his car over at WG a long time ago. The glenn is really cool, the track and the park :) -Adam

I have always been taught that it is polite to allow someone who is obviously faster than you to pass by indicating to them where you wish them to pass you and then actually allowing them to do so. I think that may be something a little different than the "move over" mistake you mentioned... could you elaborate? What if the only way you can let someone by you is to get out of the preferred line? In the real world we have hand-signals for conveying this kind of information, while in N4, we have to settle for broadcast messages which are in little bitty letters at the very tops of our screens, that may or may not have come from any cars in our immediate vicinity. Do you think animated hand signals would be useful in N4? Maybe some way to only get in-race chat from cars that are within a certain time or distance of you on the track. Maybe you could even have autochat keyed to something that would cause your spotter to tell spotters for the other cars to tell their drivers what your intentions are. Maybe not, it'd probably just be a cacophony of "The driver of the 137 car would like to let you know he thinks you're number one..." Gerald Moore "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<wphd7.53487$[email hidden]>...

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> I even saw the stupid......"move over" mistake made by a back marker being > passed by one of the leaders. Instead of holding his line....letting the > overtaking car choose when, where and how to pass.....he moved over to the > right....just as the overtaking care had committed to passing on the > right.....and the back marker got tagged in the rear....taking both cars > out! You don't see that mistake in real-world racing much anymore. I think > that's because by the time someone reaches the level in pro racing where > they are competing in a race that's being televised, they've long ago > learned not to make that stupid "moving over" mistake. You still see this > way too much in online racing on N4....particularly on the two road courses! > Without an online racing school.....or any kind of online race licensing > program....I guess this is to be expected? Even so, it still doesn't make > it any less irritating when somebody takes you out this way. It seems like > it should just be plain old "common sense"....but I guess it isn't. Its > also probably due a lot to the fact that in N4....with the difficulty level > of running it on the road courses......the leaders are the "experienced > drivers"......and they are not "back markers" very often...are they? Nope!

Wow, I wasn't aware of that. Kind of reassuring though, because that's exactly how I feel after most of my attempts at racing, on-line or off. I assumed it was just the newbie factor, but from what your saying it sounds like most people get a little hyped up. Now I can use that as an excuse when my kids wonder why I'm yelling at the computer. ;o) > Seems the effects of adrenaline on your judgment and choice of wordsisn't > very good. Alcohol is kinder on those two attributes by far. Perhaps, but not by much!

David.... Say "hi" to TC for me.....I forgot about him "doing the SoloII Nationals" for about a zillion years. He was doing those when I first met him in 1986. Tom Pabst PS: I learned about 500 other "lessons" from TC....he's a good guy!

No problemo Ed! I figured you might not have read it.....was just going to let it pass...until someone else mentioned it. Also, usually I am the guy who "forgets"......about not commenting on real-world racing here....but in the appropriate "other" newsgroup. So, you are usually correct to banish me to Siberia......lol... Tom

Gerald.... Pointing faster cars by you is a luxury of real world racing......and one we don't have in sim racing. Even in real world racing....not everyone uses the "point" signal....all the time! On road courses.....there's often just not enough time to do this, anyway. I should also point out that even when someone "points" you......if you don't know the driver.....you tend to use the same caution in passing as if they didn't "point" you. I can't tell you how many times I had rookie drivers in SCCA point me to the left....then go left! You'd go talk to these yoyo's after the race......and you'd usually get something like, "Well, I was pointing to where I was going to go so you could go the other way!" Yikes! "Moving out of the preferred line" is almost never necessary. In fact, when I see a driver "out of the line" I'm not sure if he's there because he intends me to pass, or he doesn't know what the preferred line is, or he's not good enough to keep his car in the preferred line. All of those put elements of doubt in my mind that this guy is going to stay put when I go around him. Most of the time, if you are running with the leaders....on road courses anyway, your closing speed on back markers is fairly fast....and you don't have the opportunity to follow the guy for several turns to see why he's not in the preferred line. So.....this leaves us still......with the most consistent behavior being the best behavior when being passed by leaders. Drive the line you always drive....let them go around you......when, where, and how they want to. It would be possible to have some kind of "turn signal like" device on the rear of the race cars.....flashing activated by controller "buttons" on your wheel.....that would work. It might not be too realistic for any type of racing except sports cars......(they normally use brake lights and in the showroom stock series events...they even use turn signals).....but I'd be all for using them whether they were realistic or not. I have always said that braking indicators (lets not call them brake lights, per se) and turn indicators..... would be useful "crutches" for online sim racing at least.....to help with the lack of depth perception via the two dimensional monitor we have to use in sim racing. This usually brings loud cries of "foul" from the purists sim racers......but I still think its a great "option" to have for online racing. Remember, one of the cool things about running Viper Racing....was the cars all had brake lights (there some "not cool" things about Viper Racing too)....and you didn't see as many guys getting rear ended in Viper Racing as you did the other sims. I think the brake lights played a significant role in this. If you want to watch a lot of passing.....and a lot of good application of the "hold your line" rule.....watch an ALMS race or a Grand American race on TV. With the different classes.....the prototypes pass the GT cars....several times every lap. If you are a GT driver....you can't spend your whole day "pointing" the prototypes by you....you know? The drivers in those series are by far....the best at the application of the "hold your line" rule on being passed by faster cars. Not that you don't see the occasional mistake.....but considering the amount of passing going on with multiple car classes on the track together......its a pretty good testimony to the basic rule. Tom

Will do Tom, and well considering Randy Probst has a Solo Championship under his belt and Shauna Marinus has several I would think you would remember that TC is a big fan of Solo II. Heck the fact Shauna is cute and one of his drivers is enough to make me remember. Actaully if I am correct a lot of TC's drivers started in Solo II. Shauna infact has won in the open class against all the boys too boot one year beating Ren Marinus and TC. Dave Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:gn3e7.156$[email hidden]... > David.... > > Say "hi" to TC for me.....I forgot about him "doing the SoloII Nationals" > for about a zillion years. He was doing those when I first met him in1986.

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> > Tom Pabst > > PS: I learned about 500 other "lessons" from TC....he's a good guy! > > >

In article <7Q3e7.188$[email hidden]>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>"Moving out of the preferred line" is almost never necessary. In fact, when >I see a driver "out of the line" I'm not sure if he's there because he >intends me to pass, or he doesn't know what the preferred line is, or he's >not good enough to keep his car in the preferred line. All of those put >elements of doubt in my mind that this guy is going to stay put when I go >around him. Most of the time, if you are running with the leaders....on >road courses anyway, your closing speed on back markers is fairly >fast....and you don't have the opportunity to follow the guy for several >turns to see why he's not in the preferred line. So.....this leaves us >still......with the most consistent behavior being the best behavior when >being passed by leaders. Drive the line you always drive....let them go >around you......when, where, and how they want to.

Which would be fine, except I'm CONSTANTLY seeing faster drivers pissed off because some slower drivers deign to stay on the driving line. I've even seen people write(in all seriousness) that the slower drivers should get out of the way when they're being lapped, "even driving off the track if necessary". That last part was a direct quote, but unfortunately I don't remember the original author. It still sounds like a no-win situation for those of us who are 'velocity-challenged'... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Eldred.... Seriously......the "passing rule" requires knowledge of and correct execution of......the rule by "both" participants....that means "passee...AND passer." There's no shortage of dumb-asses in the fast group of rookies in sim racing either. If anyone tells you that the slower driver must yield the racing line.....you can suggest they go take another racing school and learn the passing rules correctly this time. The only time you should be "out of the racing line" to allow cars to pass is when you are limping a damaged race car back to your pit. That situation is not what we are talking about here. In that case, you are not running anywhere near competitive lap speeds.....which is the case with back markers who are still racing....but just slower than the leaders. Of course, like all "rules of thumb" which is what this is......"good judgment" must be a part the equation. As you gain more experience in racing.....you can use good judgment to know when to "alter" the rules of thumb. But rookie drivers don't have the experience yet to be able to rely on their good judgment (usually)....so you don't want to teach them a rule...and then make them learn all the "good judgment exceptions" to it....its just not productive. But, just for discussion purposes, here's an example of a "judgment call" I have made many times....an alteration of the "passing rule" if you would like to call it that: I raced at Portland International Raceway for most of my SCCA racing career. We used the "Festival Turns" chicane often. The race group I ran in for my GT racing included GT1, GT2 and GT3 cars. All basically with the same or similar chassis....differing by horsepower of the engines (actually, classed by weight-to-horsepower ratios). I ran both GT3 and GT2 cars. Those cars were as fast or faster than most of the GT1 cars....through the "back course" at PIR (Turn 1 thru the exit of Turn 5). On occasion, some of the faster GT1 cars from Hufaker racing down at Sears Point would venture up to PIR for a National race weekend. Those guys were "fast" everywhere....including the back course at PIR. If...in the last 1 to 3 laps of a race, I observed the GT1 leaders (especially these fast guys from Hufaker Racing....guys like Steve Petty for example) crossing the S/F as I was under braking into the Festival Turns....I knew that they'd be on my rear bumper accelerating out of the Festival Turns down to T1. If I did nothing and just kept racing....chances are they'd be held up by me all the way through the "back course"...and that's about 30 to 35 seconds of a 1 minute plus lap. In the early and mid parts of the race.....that would just be tough s...t and they could wait and go around me on the back straight. But in the closing laps (particularly if I was running solo and not directly racing for a position)....what I would do is this: I would accelerate more slowly coming out of the Festival Turn. As soon as I saw the GT1 cars come around the inside cement barrier, I would stay to the left of the track....and starting waiving my hand continuously to go by me on the right.....I'd be hugging the left-side white line all the way. Now....here's the perspective from the GT1 car cockpits: As they come around the Festival Turn dog leg....they see a GT3 car on the left....with the driver constantly pointing right......as they were rapidly closing the distance.....the constant pointing....and the car position well out of the inside racing line.....gave them confidence that I intended to let them get by me to the right...... before we got into the back course. I would stay on the track-left white line....constantly waiving/pointing to the right.....until both cars were by me. I must have done this dozens of times in my racing career at PIR and never had a single problem with it. Usually, I'd get one or both of the drivers come over to my pit after the race and thank me for letting them through before the back course in the closing laps. Those of you who know PIR will have no problem understanding the above. If you don't know PIR....then I should tell you that this part of the race track was a very safe place to do this....as opposed to doing it on the straight before the Festival Turns.....or after entering the back course. So, there's a case where I was a back marker, still racing.......but I moved out of the racing line to allow the leaders through in a safe spot....and in a spot that would have a minimum impact on the final laps of their race! This is a good example of using experience and good judgment to make an exception to the rule of not moving out of the racing line. [This is also an example of what I have come to learn all top level race drivers do. They constantly sweep their mirrors ...as well as their dash instruments....in a regular rhythm and sequence...every lap of the race. They are as aware of the race situation behind them....as they are in front of them. This becomes a subconscious, automatic thing for every good driver. It is one of the elements.....a habit....that when you first posses it.....that marks the end of your rookie racing status.] Regards, Tom

Tom Pabst wrote: > > Eldred.... > The only time you should be "out of the racing line" to allow cars to pass > is when you are limping a damaged race car back to your pit. And if you've just rejoined the track after an off, and are still getting up to speed. I agree this everything else you mention, Tom, christ knows i've been lapped enough in real races. I would also use the keep left/right and point left/right technique too, it's the safest way to let the racing pack though in my opinion, and the fairest. Gerry

In article <LIde7.1294$[email hidden]>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Eldred.... > >Seriously......the "passing rule" requires knowledge of and correct >execution of......the rule by "both" participants....that means >"passee...AND passer." There's no shortage of dumb-asses in the fast group >of rookies in sim racing either. > >If anyone tells you that the slower driver must yield the racing >line.....you can suggest they go take another racing school and learn the >passing rules correctly this time.

Well, I'll admit that the prevailing attitude on VROC may have caused me to be 'gun-shy'. I've grown tired of being taken out by a faster car who didn't have the patience to wait until it was safe for me to let him by.

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>[snip] >So, there's a case where I was a back marker, still racing.......but I moved >out of the racing line to allow the leaders through in a safe spot....and in >a spot that would have a minimum impact on the final laps of their race! >This is a good example of using experience and good judgment to make an >exception to the rule of not moving out of the racing line. > >[This is also an example of what I have come to learn all top level race >drivers do. They constantly sweep their mirrors ...as well as their dash >instruments....in a regular rhythm and sequence...every lap of the race. >They are as aware of the race situation behind them....as they are in front >of them. This becomes a subconscious, automatic thing for every good >driver. It is one of the elements.....a habit....that when you first posses >it.....that marks the end of your rookie racing status.]

Sure - I do this in virtual racing all the time. But I submit that the mirrors are deceptive. A car can be on you before you expect, and it can also be farther back than thought. A lot of this depends on the track. There are some tracks where I can gauge the speed/distance of the following car based on when I see him exit the turn behind me. Meaning as soon as I see him in my mirrors after a turn, I know where he is because I know how far away from that turn *I* am now. I know I didn't explain that clearly, but I hope you understand what I mean. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Tom, Thanks for your very extensive replies. I agree, rules need to be understood by all parties involved. The WRD servers make the point of explaining their rules about this before every race, and I find it beneficial. I appreciate your comments about not knowing why an unknown driver may be off the line. I am also glad that you explained how, when you did move over for someone else, that you did it at the safest point on the track to do so. I wonder if it might be helpful to have an "online driving school" for newbies. Folks could come take the course, and after "passing" could be given some kind of digital certificate that they might give to league admins to show that they have at least mastered the basic concepts of give and take, situational awareness, etc. required for online racing. I too have often though a "brake indicator" would be most beneficial. Along the same lines, some kind of visual indication of how close you are to locking up the brakes (in N4) would be very helpful, to me anyway. Gerald Moore "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<LIde7.1294$[email hidden]>...

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> Eldred.... > > Seriously......the "passing rule" requires knowledge of and correct > execution of......the rule by "both" participants....that means > "passee...AND passer." There's no shortage of dumb-asses in the fast group > of rookies in sim racing either. > > If anyone tells you that the slower driver must yield the racing > line.....you can suggest they go take another racing school and learn the > passing rules correctly this time. > > The only time you should be "out of the racing line" to allow cars to pass > is when you are limping a damaged race car back to your pit. That situation > is not what we are talking about here. In that case, you are not running > anywhere near competitive lap speeds.....which is the case with back markers > who are still racing....but just slower than the leaders. > > Of course, like all "rules of thumb" which is what this is......"good > judgment" must be a part the equation. As you gain more experience in > racing.....you can use good judgment to know when to "alter" the rules of > thumb. But rookie drivers don't have the experience yet to be able to rely > on their good judgment (usually)....so you don't want to teach them a > rule...and then make them learn all the "good judgment exceptions" to > it....its just not productive. > > But, just for discussion purposes, here's an example of a "judgment call" I > have made many times....an alteration of the "passing rule" if you would > like to call it that: > > I raced at Portland International Raceway for most of my SCCA racing > career. We used the "Festival Turns" chicane often. The race group I ran > in for my GT racing included GT1, GT2 and GT3 cars. All basically with the > same or similar chassis....differing by horsepower of the engines (actually, > classed by weight-to-horsepower ratios). I ran both GT3 and GT2 cars. > Those cars were as fast or faster than most of the GT1 cars....through the > "back course" at PIR (Turn 1 thru the exit of Turn 5). On occasion, some of > the faster GT1 cars from Hufaker racing down at Sears Point would venture up > to PIR for a National race weekend. Those guys were "fast" > everywhere....including the back course at PIR. If...in the last 1 to 3 > laps of a race, I observed the GT1 leaders (especially these fast guys from > Hufaker Racing....guys like Steve Petty for example) crossing the S/F as I > was under braking into the Festival Turns....I knew that they'd be on my > rear bumper accelerating out of the Festival Turns down to T1. If I did > nothing and just kept racing....chances are they'd be held up by me all the > way through the "back course"...and that's about 30 to 35 seconds of a 1 > minute plus lap. In the early and mid parts of the race.....that would just > be tough s...t and they could wait and go around me on the back straight. > But in the closing laps (particularly if I was running solo and not directly > racing for a position)....what I would do is this: > > I would accelerate more slowly coming out of the Festival Turn. As > soon as I saw the GT1 cars come around the inside cement barrier, I would > stay to the left of the track....and starting waiving my hand continuously > to go by me on the right.....I'd be hugging the left-side white line all the > way. Now....here's the perspective from the GT1 car cockpits: As they come > around the Festival Turn dog leg....they see a GT3 car on the left....with > the driver constantly pointing right......as they were rapidly closing the > distance.....the constant pointing....and the car position well out of the > inside racing line.....gave them confidence that I intended to let them get > by me to the right...... before we got into the back course. I would stay > on the track-left white line....constantly waiving/pointing to the > right.....until both cars were by me. > > I must have done this dozens of times in my racing career at PIR and never > had a single problem with it. Usually, I'd get one or both of the drivers > come over to my pit after the race and thank me for letting them through > before the back course in the closing laps. > > Those of you who know PIR will have no problem understanding the above. If > you don't know PIR....then I should tell you that this part of the race > track was a very safe place to do this....as opposed to doing it on the > straight before the Festival Turns.....or after entering the back course. > > So, there's a case where I was a back marker, still racing.......but I moved > out of the racing line to allow the leaders through in a safe spot....and in > a spot that would have a minimum impact on the final laps of their race! > This is a good example of using experience and good judgment to make an > exception to the rule of not moving out of the racing line. > > [This is also an example of what I have come to learn all top level race > drivers do. They constantly sweep their mirrors ...as well as their dash > instruments....in a regular rhythm and sequence...every lap of the race. > They are as aware of the race situation behind them....as they are in front > of them. This becomes a subconscious, automatic thing for every good > driver. It is one of the elements.....a habit....that when you first posses > it.....that marks the end of your rookie racing status.] > > Regards, > > Tom