Who are the West Brothers???

Exactly who are the West Brothers, and why are we awaiting their next project like it's the second coming with such rapt anticipation? I have most of the Sim's discussed here and none of them seem to have the West Bros. names associated with them. Their name gets mentioned with such reverence I assume they have a great track record. But for what? And while we're at it who is Godot?

Have you read their chat transcripts? Have you heard the long interview on "track-talk"? Have you seen the movies? Have you seen the screenshots? If not, I rest my case ;) No one, (well someone does) knows if they will deliver, but atleast they intend too. No one except PAPY or Geoff Crammand has expressed a true desire to deliver this sort of simulation so thats why I guess... Although, desire is not the same as facts, but still... Thomas "Euan Gilmour" <egilmour@*NOSPAM*home.com> skrev i meddelandet news:SNWd7.61208$[email hidden]...

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> Exactly who are the West Brothers, and why are we awaiting their next > project like it's the second coming with such rapt anticipation? > > I have most of the Sim's discussed here and none of them seem to have > the West Bros. names associated with them. > > Their name gets mentioned with such reverence I assume they have a

great > track record. But for what? > > And while we're at it who is Godot? > >

we quit waiting several months ago. Euan Gilmour <egilmour@*NOSPAM*home.com> wrote in message news:SNWd7.61208$[email hidden]...

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> Exactly who are the West Brothers, and why are we awaiting their next > project like it's the second coming with such rapt anticipation? > > I have most of the Sim's discussed here and none of them seem to have > the West Bros. names associated with them. > > Their name gets mentioned with such reverence I assume they have a

great > track record. But for what? > > And while we're at it who is Godot? > >

Speak for yourself and not others "rik anthrax" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:O4Zd7.400498$[email hidden]... > we quit waiting several months ago. > Euan Gilmour <egilmour@*NOSPAM*home.com> wrote in message > news:SNWd7.61208$[email hidden]... > > Exactly who are the West Brothers, and why are we awaiting theirnext > > project like it's the second coming with such rapt anticipation? > > > > I have most of the Sim's discussed here and none of them seem tohave

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> > the West Bros. names associated with them. > > > > Their name gets mentioned with such reverence I assume they have a > great > > track record. But for what? > > > > And while we're at it who is Godot? > > > > > >

Sorry Cliff, let me be more clear; We, who can see the writing on the wall, quit waiting months ago. Cliff Roman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:C0%d7.33712$[email hidden]...

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> Speak for yourself and not others > > > > "rik anthrax" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:O4Zd7.400498$[email hidden]... > > we quit waiting several months ago. > > Euan Gilmour <egilmour@*NOSPAM*home.com> wrote in message > > news:SNWd7.61208$[email hidden]... > > > Exactly who are the West Brothers, and why are we awaiting their > next > > > project like it's the second coming with such rapt anticipation? > > > > > > I have most of the Sim's discussed here and none of them seem to > have > > > the West Bros. names associated with them. > > > > > > Their name gets mentioned with such reverence I assume they have a > > great > > > track record. But for what? > > > > > > And while we're at it who is Godot? > > > > > > > > > > > >

December, lol. "rik anthrax" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ZY%d7.102061$[email hidden]...

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> Sorry Cliff, let me be more clear; > We, who can see the writing on the wall, quit waiting months ago. > > Cliff Roman <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:C0%d7.33712$[email hidden]... > > Speak for yourself and not others > > > > > > > > "rik anthrax" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:O4Zd7.400498$[email hidden]... > > > we quit waiting several months ago. > > > Euan Gilmour <egilmour@*NOSPAM*home.com> wrote in message > > > news:SNWd7.61208$[email hidden]... > > > > Exactly who are the West Brothers, and why are we awaiting their > > next > > > > project like it's the second coming with such rapt anticipation? > > > > > > > > I have most of the Sim's discussed here and none of them seem to > > have > > > > the West Bros. names associated with them. > > > > > > > > Their name gets mentioned with such reverence I assume they have

a

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> > > great > > > > track record. But for what? > > > > > > > > And while we're at it who is Godot? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

The point he was making is that even if the whole newsgroup agreed with you (and the whole ng doesn't), you are still only speaking for yourself. EB have WSC on their release list for Q1 2002. Go to simracingmag and read the latest updates on WSC, written by someone who is in regular contact with the West Bros. I seem to remember GP2 being released over 12 months late, GP3 being released about 2 years late and Unreal being released about 3 years late. Daikatanna was also over a year late. Would you rather we got the game 12 months early and half finished like EA did with F1 2000, or 6 months early and pre-beta like EA did with Ultima 9? Those are the guys who deserve criticism, the people like EA who take your money for a game that isn't finished. "rik anthrax" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ZY%d7.102061$[email hidden]...

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> Sorry Cliff, let me be more clear; > We, who can see the writing on the wall, quit waiting months ago. > > Cliff Roman <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:C0%d7.33712$[email hidden]... > > Speak for yourself and not others > > > > > >

> > No one, (well someone does) knows if they will deliver, > but atleast they intend too. No one except PAPY or > Geoff Crammand has expressed a true desire to > deliver this sort of simulation so thats why I guess... What about MGI ? Viper Racing and Nascar Heat

Actually, they are the online alias' for "Starsky and Hutch".....a well known racing sim coming out this Fall. Tom

Waiting for Godot? rik anthrax <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:O4Zd7.400498$[email hidden]...

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> we quit waiting several months ago. > Euan Gilmour <egilmour@*NOSPAM*home.com> wrote in message > news:SNWd7.61208$[email hidden]... > > Exactly who are the West Brothers, and why are we awaiting their next > > project like it's the second coming with such rapt anticipation? > > > > I have most of the Sim's discussed here and none of them seem to have > > the West Bros. names associated with them. > > > > Their name gets mentioned with such reverence I assume they have a > > great track record. But for what? > > > > And while we're at it who is Godot? > > > > > >

Agreed Ruud, Chris and Tony are two determined guys with enormous talent, its just a matter of time. Ash

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| | The idea behind it is different; more open (easier to do your cars), | more simmy (less arcade). | And it will get there, sooner or later. No doubt in my mind. | | | Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 | Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ | Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

On Mon, 13 Aug 2001 20:30:42 GMT, "Euan Gilmour" <egilmour@*NOSPAM*home.com> wrote:

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> Exactly who are the West Brothers, and why are we awaiting their next >project like it's the second coming with such rapt anticipation? > > I have most of the Sim's discussed here and none of them seem to have >the West Bros. names associated with them. > > Their name gets mentioned with such reverence I assume they have a great >track record. But for what?

The idea behind it is different; more open (easier to do your cars), more simmy (less arcade). And it will get there, sooner or later. No doubt in my mind. Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

Yeah, it was on the release list until it was cancelled. WSC is still on the list, therefore it's still under way. Anyway, I do hope you can see the difference between Warcraft Adventures and WSC. The Warcraft Adventures team got paid whether that game was published or not. Plus WSC is a labour of love by dedicated people who have *chosen* to make that particular game, where the Warcraft Adventures team were *told* to write that game, and probably hated it. I presume you agreed with the rest of my post. "OK" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Warcraft Adventures was on the EB release schedule as well, so that > doesn't really mean much.

"Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> Yeah, it was on the release list until it was cancelled. WSC is still on > the list, therefore it's still under way. > > Anyway, I do hope you can see the difference between Warcraft Adventures and > WSC. The Warcraft Adventures team got paid whether that game was published > or not. Plus WSC is a labour of love by dedicated people who have *chosen* > to make that particular game, where the Warcraft Adventures team were *told* > to write that game, and probably hated it.

Just one question. You say the the WA team got paid whether or not, thus implying that the West bros doesn't. What do they eat then and where do they live ? :) AFAIK they work on WSC almost 24/7.

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> I presume you agreed with the rest of my post. > > "OK" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Warcraft Adventures was on the EB release schedule as well, so that > > doesn't really mean much. > >

-- Olav K. Malmin remove .spam when replying

Stick around, and you *will* get to know them :-) -- ed_ Euan wrote: > Exactly who are the West Brothers, and why are we awaiting their next > project like it's the second coming with such rapt anticipation? > > I have most of the Sim's discussed here and none of them seem to have > the West Bros. names associated with them. > > Their name gets mentioned with such reverence I assume they have a great > track record. But for what? > > And while we're at it who is Godot? > >

In article <C0%d7.33712$[email hidden]>, "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Speak for yourself and not others > > > >"rik anthrax" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:O4Zd7.400498$[email hidden]... >> we quit waiting several months ago.

Ok, I quit waiting too. If it comes out, I'll be pleasantly surprised... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Exactly who is Euan Gilmour, and why is he taking such a hard stance? I have read many interesting discussions here and none of them seem to have Euan's name associated with them. He speaks with such authority that I assume he must have a lot of insider knowledge. But from where? And, while we're at it, what does the word patience mean? -Gregor P.S.: Euan, please, don't take this personally. I was just trying to show how things can quickly go both ways :). Euan Gilmour wrote:

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> > Exactly who are the West Brothers, and why are we awaiting their next > project like it's the second coming with such rapt anticipation? > > I have most of the Sim's discussed here and none of them seem to have > the West Bros. names associated with them. > > Their name gets mentioned with such reverence I assume they have a great > track record. But for what? > > And while we're at it who is Godot?

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > In article <C0%d7.33712$[email hidden]>, "Cliff Roman" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Speak for yourself and not others > > > Ok, I quit waiting too. If it comes out, I'll be pleasantly surprised... Eldred, when you say you quit waiting, does that mean you had your money waiting and bought something else instead!?? I'm not too optimistic about WSC either, but if it comes out, I'll buy it and see what it's like. I think the biggest weakness is the small size of the team - it's an enormous amount of work to do the tracks for a racing game now at the level of detail required. For comparison, GPL's manual lists 20 artists alone! - Michael

Euan Gilmour <egilmour@*NOSPAM*home.com> wrote in message news:SNWd7.61208$[email hidden]... > Exactly who are the West Brothers, and why are we awaiting their next > project like it's the second coming with such rapt anticipation? Exaclty! Oh wait, that wasn't rhetorical was it? :-) > I have most of the Sim's discussed here and none of them seem to have > the West Bros. names associated with them. Exactly! > Their name gets mentioned with such reverence I assume they have agreat > track record. But for what? Exactly!! For what? They have a great track record of promising and promising more and more but have yet to delivery one solitary 0 or 1 to us!

Exaclty! Oh wait, that wasn't rhetorical was it? :-) Exactly! Exactly!! For what? They have a great track record of promising and promising more and more but have yet to delivery one solitary 0 or 1 to us!

> Euan Gilmour <egilmour@*NOSPAM*home.com> wrote in message > news:SNWd7.61208$[email hidden]... > > Exactly who are the West Brothers, and why are we awaiting theirnext > > project like it's the second coming with such rapt anticipation? Aren't they the guys who wrote "Something About Mary" and "Me,Myself,& Irene"? btgoss

What a great attitude. So no one out there is allowed to attempt anything if they dont have a track record. So please explain how one is to obtain said track record if everytime someone tries they get this kind of treatment.

Gregor Veble <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Exactly who is Euan Gilmour, and why is he taking such a hard stance? > > I have read many interesting discussions here and none of them seem to > have Euan's name associated with them. > > He speaks with such authority that I assume he must have a lot of > insider knowledge. But from where? > > And, while we're at it, what does the word patience mean? > > -Gregor > > P.S.: Euan, please, don't take this personally. I was just trying to > show how things can quickly go both ways :). >

No, that's OK it takes a lot more than that to offend me. My only point (which seems to have been lost) was who are the West Bros.? Honestly I was just curious, it wasn't meant factiously. It's just I don't associate them with any previous projects. I was just wondering if they were Crammand's prot�g� or something. That's all. As to the other post I have seen the screen shots and read the interview's. The concept and the media look wonderful , but so many projects go sideways I was just wondering why so many hopes were pinned on this one. Also, I haven't been able to download Racer 0.47 yet. Is it good. Can't this become the community supported open source sim of the future? Again, I'm just wondering no sarcasm or innuendoes intended. As to who I am. GET TO KNOW ME!! I had a friend named George. He was a nothing. A nobody. Then he got to know me. Now they call him President George W. Bush!!! GET TO KNOW ME!!!!

Ok, I admit I have no idea what kind of deal they have with Empire :) Anyway, the difference is that Warcraft Adventures was 'in-house', so when the game got scrubbed, the team were just reassigned (I assume). They were actually employees of Blizzard, whereas the West Bros are not (I assume) empoyees of Empire. I would guess the West Bros had an advance from Empire at the start of the project. Also Empire would probably give them some additional finiancial support (a loan) if their money ran out. I know that's just speculation, it's quite possible I haven't got a clue what I'm talking about. "Olav K. Malmin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> writes: > > Just one question. You say the the WA team got paid whether or > not, thus implying that the West bros doesn't. What do they eat then > and where do they live ? :) AFAIK they work on WSC almost 24/7. > > -- > Olav K. Malmin > remove .spam when replying

WSC is a touchy subject at the moment Euan, but you weren't to know that. I'm quite used to RAS and was a little surprised at the kind of responses this thread generated. IIRC the West brothers have a track record in games, but WSC will be their first racing sim. Sadly, this vague recollection is the extend of my knowledge, the accuracy of which is debatable lately. Which is also why I didn't respond before. I assumed at least one of the other posters would have the facts for you. Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. "Euan Gilmour" wrote... > > <snip> > No, that's OK it takes a lot more than that to offend me. > > My only point (which seems to have been lost) was who are > the West Bros.?

Cliff Roman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:C0%d7.33712$[email hidden]... > Speak for yourself and not others > Well I'm and "other" and he speaks damn well for me.

> <snip> > > Exactly!! For what? They have a great track record of promising and > promising more and more but have yet to delivery one solitary 0 or 1 to us! ...and your point is? 1.) The West brothers are a myth. 2.) WSC is a myth. 3.) I am a moron. My point is are you any worse off because WSC hasn't been released? Marty

On Tue, 14 Aug 2001 17:50:53 GMT, "Euan Gilmour" <egilmour@*NOSPAM*home.com> wrote: >Also, I haven't been able to download Racer 0.47 yet. There are quite a few mirrors by now; High Gear, http://racer.racesim.net, and others (see the site). > Is it good. Can't >this become the community supported open source sim of the future? Again, >I'm just wondering no sarcasm or innuendoes intended. It is already supported by quite a few people, there are new cars that are not conversions, and there's the first really brand new track. Nice too, although a bit inefficient (draws the whole track every time, but still manages to get a nice fps). We'll see what happens with it, it will come by itself, or not. Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

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> Honestly I was just curious, it wasn't meant factiously. It's just I don't > associate them with any previous projects. I was just wondering if they > were Crammand's prot�g� or something. That's all. > > As to the other post I have seen the screen shots and read the interview's. > The concept and the media look wonderful , but so many projects go sideways > I was just wondering why so many hopes were pinned on this one.

The West's are the keepers of the Holy Grail for those of us true to the goals of the ultimate in computer motor racing simulation. They are that because their goals for WSC are levels of car physics, graphics, playablility, etc., beyond what has so far been achieved. They are able to do this not only because of their ability and commitment to the project, but for the same reason you don't know of them....they are not hog-tied to a corporate production shop. I believe the same was....WAS... true with Papyrus before Sierra swallowed them up even though GPL and N4 came after that. My understanding is GPL was totally Papy's vision not Sierra's and to all indications will be the last of any sim from them that doesn't include the word nascar. From what I've heard, admittedly second hand, is the Wests are working hard to complete WSC. At least part of the delay now apparently is updating graphics for the latest hardware with performance and effects that has not shown up in any computer game to date. Keeping the faith :) Marty

Carol Bekker <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_vde7.50894$e%[email hidden]... > What a great attitude. So no one out there is allowed to attempt anythingif > they dont have a track record. So please explain how one is to obtain said > track record if everytime someone tries they get this kind of treatment. Yeah, of course they can attempt something but they can't take us for fools which is what the Wests' have done so far. You guys can't see it... they have you in the palm of their hand, you believe everything they say but have produced nothing in 2 or 3 years... I'll be first to congratulate them on a job well done if I can see a job that is well done, now... I see nothing!

Marty U'Ren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > > <snip> > > > > Exactly!! For what? They have a great track record of promising and > > promising more and more but have yet to delivery one solitary 0 or 1 tous!

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> > ...and your point is? > > 1.) The West brothers are a myth. > > 2.) WSC is a myth. > > 3.) I am a moron. > > My point is are you any worse off because WSC hasn't been released?

1)Wests have a myth 2)WSC IS a myth ... so far 3)I would be a moron if i followed them like they were gods.

"GraDee" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> Carol Bekker <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:_vde7.50894$e%[email hidden]... > > What a great attitude. So no one out there is allowed to attempt anything > if > > they dont have a track record. So please explain how one is to obtain said > > track record if everytime someone tries they get this kind of treatment. > > > Yeah, of course they can attempt something but they can't take us for fools > which is what the Wests' have done so far. > > You guys can't see it... they have you in the palm of their hand, you > believe everything they say but have produced nothing in 2 or 3 years... > > I'll be first to congratulate them on a job well done if I can see a job > that is well done, now... I see nothing!

And that is reason enough to put them down ? They read this newsgroup and disencouragement and insults is the last thing they need. Olav (not "following" anyone, just think what I hear sounds promising)

Well, blowing your top about it is not going bring us any closer to playable code, so put the energy towards something usefull. And tell me, what exactly do the West brothers stand to gain from this supposed charade? -How will their long term future improve by borrowing money to work on a non-existant game? Conning a publisher is not a good way to receive more work and it's good bet the people at Empire are smart enough to smell a conn a mile away. Also, if they've been lurking this place for any lenght of time they should realise duping us into buying some arcade game while being promised a sim is going to land them a lot of bad publicity. Therefore I conclude there is a game in the making, and a simulation at that. I might even say I'm exited at the prospect. However, I do feel two people is not enough to acchieve what they're trying to do and I'm worried they are spending too much time and processor power for too little gain in the simulation department (would love to be proved wrong on both counts though). So I think it's reasonable to expect delays and several proposed features missing. Nevertheless, I think their aim is worthy of moral support by simmers like us. Innocent until proven guilty, remember? Besides, it's not like we need to wait for them to finish it to do play a sim... We got all these wonderfull toys (I don't even have enough spare spare time to do them all justice) and Rally Trophy on the horizon!! -Life is good... cheer up!! ;-) Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. "GraDee" wrote...

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> <snip> > Yeah, of course they can attempt something but they can't > take us for fools which is what the Wests' have done so far. > > You guys can't see it... they have you in the palm of their > hand, you believe everything they say but have produced > nothing in 2 or 3 years... > > I'll be first to congratulate them on a job well done if I > can see a job that is well done, now... I see nothing!

And what, may I ask, are they going to do with us now they 'have us in the palm of their hands'? I also fail to see how you can say they have produced nothing when many people have driven their work and reported favourably on it. I myself have seen and driven it at ECTS last year. I just dont understand where this hostility is coming from. "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:S4he7.149$[email hidden]... > > Carol Bekker <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:_vde7.50894$e%[email hidden]... > > What a great attitude. So no one out there is allowed to attemptanything > if > > they dont have a track record. So please explain how one is to obtainsaid > > track record if everytime someone tries they get this kind of treatment. > > > Yeah, of course they can attempt something but they can't take us forfools

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> which is what the Wests' have done so far. > > You guys can't see it... they have you in the palm of their hand, you > believe everything they say but have produced nothing in 2 or 3 years... > > I'll be first to congratulate them on a job well done if I can see a job > that is well done, now... I see nothing! > > > >

Is every game that hasn't yet been released a myth then? No one is following them like gods, but the screenshots and the movies justify some interest. Download the latest movie, the 39 MB one, it looks very real.

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> 1)Wests have a myth > 2)WSC IS a myth ... so far > 3)I would be a moron if i followed them like they were gods. > > > >

Simon, just some friendly words "(assume) Nothing!" -Thom_j. "Simon Brown" wrote: <snipped> | Anyway, the difference is that Warcraft Adventures was 'in-house', so when | the game got scrubbed, the team were just reassigned (I assume). Theywere | actually employees of Blizzard, whereas the West Bros are not (I assume) | empoyees of Empire.<snipped> --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

GraDee wrote:

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> Carol Bekker <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:_vde7.50894$e%[email hidden]... > > What a great attitude. So no one out there is allowed to attempt anything > if > > they dont have a track record. So please explain how one is to obtain said > > track record if everytime someone tries they get this kind of treatment. > > Yeah, of course they can attempt something but they can't take us for fools > which is what the Wests' have done so far. > > You guys can't see it... they have you in the palm of their hand, you > believe everything they say but have produced nothing in 2 or 3 years... > > I'll be first to congratulate them on a job well done if I can see a job > that is well done, now... I see nothing!

I know I'm not the one feeling the fool just for believing WSC is for real given reports of those with 1st hand knowledge. The Wests could dry up and blow away tomorrow for whatever reason and I still wouldn't feel foolish. I haven't spent a cent or wasted productive time on their work. Have you? Only Empire has anything to loose and they're only in it for the money anyway. So quit yer bitchin. Marty

Daikatana = bad example. We certainly don't want WSC to be the Daikatana of racing sims. ;o)

In article <[email hidden]>, Marty U'Ren <[email hidden]> writes: >Keeping the faith :) I'm an atheist...<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, MP <[email hidden]> writes:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, >[email hidden] says... >> In article <C0%d7.33712$[email hidden]>, "Cliff Roman" >> <[email hidden]> writes: >> >> >Speak for yourself and not others >> > >> Ok, I quit waiting too. If it comes out, I'll be pleasantly surprised... > >Eldred, when you say you quit waiting, does that mean you had your money >waiting and bought something else instead!?? > >I'm not too optimistic about WSC either, but if it comes out, I'll buy >it and see what it's like.

I mean that I've given up on it coming out. If it DOES see the light of day, I'll probably buy it right away(based on the info I've seen). If it DOESN'T come out, I won't be heartbroken. An optimist is disappointed 50% of the time - a pessimist is pleasantly surprised 50% of the time. I prefer the pleasant surprise...<G> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"they have you in the palm of their hand" ????????????? What for? Are they taking our money and providing nothing in return? You make it sound like they are toiling away producing fake reports of their progress and fake screenshots and participating in disingenuous interviews for the purpose of pulling our cords. What kind of sicko are you? Even if nothing gets published at the end of the day, they should be congratulated for at least attempting to create a worthwhile racing simulation. Even talking intelligently about racing simulations is worth a pat on the back since the big publishers are sure not very interested in them. Marc. "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:S4he7.149$[email hidden]... > > Carol Bekker <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:_vde7.50894$e%[email hidden]... > > What a great attitude. So no one out there is allowed to attemptanything > if > > they dont have a track record. So please explain how one is to obtainsaid > > track record if everytime someone tries they get this kind of treatment. > > > Yeah, of course they can attempt something but they can't take us forfools

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> which is what the Wests' have done so far. > > You guys can't see it... they have you in the palm of their hand, you > believe everything they say but have produced nothing in 2 or 3 years... > > I'll be first to congratulate them on a job well done if I can see a job > that is well done, now... I see nothing! > > > >

You mean while racing we could swat at flying-boxlike-frogs???? SIGN ME UP!!!! dave(?)henrie "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:idje7.36806$[email hidden]... > Daikatana = bad example. We certainly don't want WSC to be the > Daikatana of racing sims. ;o) > > >

I'm going to have to risk getting involved with an obvious troll here, but I can't let a posting like that pass. In what way do you think they have taken you for a fool? A fool you may or may not be, but I'm 99% certain you've never bet the farm on a large creative project which has consumed your whole life for a period of years. If you had, you wouldn't have made such a negative and tactless comment. Is it completely lost on you that if WSC went down the pan then it would simply impact our (expected) choice of leisure activities, while the consequences for the Wests would be rather more severe? I sincerely hope the Wests aren't bothering to read this ng these days, with some of the comments that are being made. Try a little insight and sympathy guys, we would like them to succeed after all! "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<S4he7.149$[email hidden]>...

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> Carol Bekker <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:_vde7.50894$e%[email hidden]... > > What a great attitude. So no one out there is allowed to attempt anything > if > > they dont have a track record. So please explain how one is to obtain said > > track record if everytime someone tries they get this kind of treatment. > > > Yeah, of course they can attempt something but they can't take us for fools > which is what the Wests' have done so far. > > You guys can't see it... they have you in the palm of their hand, you > believe everything they say but have produced nothing in 2 or 3 years... > > I'll be first to congratulate them on a job well done if I can see a job > that is well done, now... I see nothing!

They can just render one track, and release the track creation tools, and we'll do the rest. :-) ---Asgeir--- MP wrote:

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > In article <C0%d7.33712$[email hidden]>, "Cliff Roman" > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > >Speak for yourself and not others > > > > > Ok, I quit waiting too. If it comes out, I'll be pleasantly surprised... > > Eldred, when you say you quit waiting, does that mean you had your money > waiting and bought something else instead!?? > > I'm not too optimistic about WSC either, but if it comes out, I'll buy > it and see what it's like. > > I think the biggest weakness is the small size of the team - it's an > enormous amount of work to do the tracks for a racing game now at the > level of detail required. For comparison, GPL's manual lists 20 artists > alone! > > - Michael

Marc, I wondered what this comment meant too? I am glad you brought it up..lol :) "Marc Collins" wrote: | "they have you in the palm of their hand" ????????????? What for?<snipped> | Marc. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

Oh, poor boy.... Have they insulted you by denying you the possibility to race an excellent sim? Have they said when the game will be released, and you planned racing WSC that weekend? You're a crybaby, that's all I have to say! If you can't wait for it, then that is your problem. Patience is a funny thing. ---Asgeir--- GraDee wrote:

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> Carol Bekker <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:_vde7.50894$e%[email hidden]... > > What a great attitude. So no one out there is allowed to attempt anything > if > > they dont have a track record. So please explain how one is to obtain said > > track record if everytime someone tries they get this kind of treatment. > > Yeah, of course they can attempt something but they can't take us for fools > which is what the Wests' have done so far. > > You guys can't see it... they have you in the palm of their hand, you > believe everything they say but have produced nothing in 2 or 3 years... > > I'll be first to congratulate them on a job well done if I can see a job > that is well done, now... I see nothing!

Mike, I agree & I am still waiting cuz why not? So I opt not to send any negative comments about WSC, it'll either be here or it wont. :) "Mike Nunan" wrote:

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| I'm going to have to risk getting involved with an obvious troll here, | but I can't let a posting like that pass. In what way do you think | they have taken you for a fool? A fool you may or may not be, but I'm | 99% certain you've never bet the farm on a large creative project | which has consumed your whole life for a period of years. If you had, | you wouldn't have made such a negative and tactless comment. Is it | completely lost on you that if WSC went down the pan then it would | simply impact our (expected) choice of leisure activities, while the | consequences for the Wests would be rather more severe? I sincerely | hope the Wests aren't bothering to read this ng these days, with some | of the comments that are being made. Try a little insight and sympathy | guys, we would like them to succeed after all!

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

Hehe, ok :) "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Euie7.104028$[email hidden]... > Simon, just some friendly words "(assume) Nothing!" -Thom_j. >

Olav K. Malmin <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "GraDee" <[email hidden]> writes: > > > Carol Bekker <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:_vde7.50894$e%[email hidden]... > > > What a great attitude. So no one out there is allowed to attemptanything > > if > > > they dont have a track record. So please explain how one is to obtainsaid > > > track record if everytime someone tries they get this kind oftreatment. > > > > > > Yeah, of course they can attempt something but they can't take us forfools

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> > which is what the Wests' have done so far. > > > > You guys can't see it... they have you in the palm of their hand, you > > believe everything they say but have produced nothing in 2 or 3 years... > > > > I'll be first to congratulate them on a job well done if I can see a job > > that is well done, now... I see nothing! > > And that is reason enough to put them down ? They read this newsgroup > and disencouragement and insults is the last thing they need.

Yeah, I also read this group and discouragement and put downs are the last thing i need... Look, West have great intentions and I love that about them but so far I can give you as much of my racing sim right this minute as they can of theirs. (i.e. I have no sim of my own) I'm all for it, but after 2-3 years now and we have NOTHING, demos were promise 12 month + ago, I mean, everyone gets a chance and a 2nd chance and a third chance but you can't milk it. If the West's just stop promising to include this that and the other thing, keep quiet and surprise us all with a demo with 1 car, on 1 track for 1 lap I'd be satisfied!

Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:shle7.18781$[email hidden]... > "they have you in the palm of their hand" ????????????? What for? Arethey > taking our money and providing nothing in return? It's not that hard to understand. Take the word "clutch". Didn't the Wests promise a more or less revolutionary clutch system, or at least its implemented more than in any other sim as in you can use a pedal or button and everythign is like in real life, more than jsut the GPL semi-auto clutch idea for ease of use. Great, everyone thingks it there, we all belive they have it or have done it but I'd like to hear from someone who's experienced this clutch system implemented in the sim. Thats the problem. > You make it sound like > they are toiling away producing fake reports of their progress and fake > screenshots and participating in disingenuous interviews for the purposeof > pulling our cords. I didn't say THAT man, calm down! I'm not saying they are lying, all I mean is they haven't really shown us anything they promised, thats not the main problem, all games developers ahe a period where this is the truth but we have yet to see things promised 2-3 years ago at this point. > What kind of sicko are you? Even if nothing gets > published at the end of the day, they should be congratulated for at least > attempting to create a worthwhile racing simulation. Even talking > intelligently about racing simulations is worth a pat on the back sincethe

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> big publishers are sure not very interested in them. > > Marc. > > > > "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:S4he7.149$[email hidden]... > > > > Carol Bekker <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:_vde7.50894$e%[email hidden]... > > > What a great attitude. So no one out there is allowed to attempt > anything > > if > > > they dont have a track record. So please explain how one is to obtain > said > > > track record if everytime someone tries they get this kind of

treatment.

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> > > > > > Yeah, of course they can attempt something but they can't take us for > fools > > which is what the Wests' have done so far. > > > > You guys can't see it... they have you in the palm of their hand, you > > believe everything they say but have produced nothing in 2 or 3 years... > > > > I'll be first to congratulate them on a job well done if I can see a job > > that is well done, now... I see nothing! > > > > > > > > > >

I have to apologise here if you think I'm trolling. I'm not, I've been in RAS for a number of years now, and in that time I've been known by some to have fairly strong issues on a number of things such as WSC and before that, GPL. I'm not trying to troll, I wan to best sims like you all, I just have my owns thoughts on things and come to my own conclusions instead of taking the same view as the masses, sometimes that is different to most peoples ideas here, sometimes it's exactly the same, it's not trolling.... Fair play to the West's but I do wish they'd either keep quiet and get on with developing and else show us a glimpse of some of the things they say they have/will have. I just find it tedious to hear all the things WSC will have and how it will be e the best sim ever. You see those claims on the cover of every sim and arcade racer alike out there and I'm not falling for it anymore, I personally just can't accept "wishliss" as reality since I've seem so many, and I mean many, sims fail to deliver on these wishlists. Mike Nunan <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I'm going to have to risk getting involved with an obvious troll here, > but I can't let a posting like that pass. In what way do you think > they have taken you for a fool? A fool you may or may not be, but I'm > 99% certain you've never bet the farm on a large creative project > which has consumed your whole life for a period of years. If you had, > you wouldn't have made such a negative and tactless comment. Is it > completely lost on you that if WSC went down the pan then it would > simply impact our (expected) choice of leisure activities, while the > consequences for the Wests would be rather more severe? I sincerely > hope the Wests aren't bothering to read this ng these days, with some > of the comments that are being made. Try a little insight and sympathy > guys, we would like them to succeed after all! > > "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<S4he7.149$[email hidden]>... > > Carol Bekker <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:_vde7.50894$e%[email hidden]... > > > What a great attitude. So no one out there is allowed to attemptanything > > if > > > they dont have a track record. So please explain how one is to obtainsaid > > > track record if everytime someone tries they get this kind oftreatment. > > > > > > Yeah, of course they can attempt something but they can't take us forfools

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> > which is what the Wests' have done so far. > > > > You guys can't see it... they have you in the palm of their hand, you > > believe everything they say but have produced nothing in 2 or 3 years... > > > > I'll be first to congratulate them on a job well done if I can see a job > > that is well done, now... I see nothing!

Asgeir Nesoen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Oh, poor boy.... Have they insulted you by denying you the possibility torace > an excellent sim? Have they said when the game will be released, and youplanned > racing WSC that weekend? > > You're a crybaby, that's all I have to say! If you can't wait for it, thenthat > is your problem. Patience is a funny thing. Eh, Asgeir, We were promised a demo to be ready and out there over 12 months ago... as I said before, 1 car, 1 track 1 lap, thats all I need to show it exists with all these things to come. My life will be no worse if WSC does not come about but look at GP3... everyone believed their own hype and when the sim came most were disappointed at the things it did NOT include. Eventually this sim will have to be finished and how many times have we seen sims released unfinished because it just took too long, er, I think almost all sims fall into that group.

Can you please give me some links to ALL these places where the West Brothers have been shooting off their mouths about WSC inthe last few moneths, as far as I can see its all been very quiet. "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Ggze7.264$[email hidden]... > I have to apologise here if you think I'm trolling. I'm not, I've been in > RAS for a number of years now, and in that time I've been known by some to > have fairly strong issues on a number of things such as WSC and beforethat, > GPL. > I'm not trying to troll, I wan to best sims like you all, I just have my > owns thoughts on things and come to my own conclusions instead of takingthe > same view as the masses, sometimes that is different to most peoples ideas > here, sometimes it's exactly the same, it's not trolling.... > > Fair play to the West's but I do wish they'd either keep quiet and get on > with developing and else show us a glimpse of some of the things they say > they have/will have. I just find it tedious to hear all the things WSCwill > have and how it will be e the best sim ever. > > You see those claims on the cover of every sim and arcade racer alike out > there and I'm not falling for it anymore, I personally just can't accept > "wishliss" as reality since I've seem so many, and I mean many, sims failto

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> deliver on these wishlists. > > > Mike Nunan <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I'm going to have to risk getting involved with an obvious troll here, > > but I can't let a posting like that pass. In what way do you think > > they have taken you for a fool? A fool you may or may not be, but I'm > > 99% certain you've never bet the farm on a large creative project > > which has consumed your whole life for a period of years. If you had, > > you wouldn't have made such a negative and tactless comment. Is it > > completely lost on you that if WSC went down the pan then it would > > simply impact our (expected) choice of leisure activities, while the > > consequences for the Wests would be rather more severe? I sincerely > > hope the Wests aren't bothering to read this ng these days, with some > > of the comments that are being made. Try a little insight and sympathy > > guys, we would like them to succeed after all! > > > > "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:<S4he7.149$[email hidden]>... > > > Carol Bekker <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:_vde7.50894$e%[email hidden]... > > > > What a great attitude. So no one out there is allowed to attempt > anything > > > if > > > > they dont have a track record. So please explain how one is to

obtain

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> said > > > > track record if everytime someone tries they get this kind of > treatment. > > > > > > > > > Yeah, of course they can attempt something but they can't take us for > fools > > > which is what the Wests' have done so far. > > > > > > You guys can't see it... they have you in the palm of their hand, you > > > believe everything they say but have produced nothing in 2 or 3

years... > > > > > > I'll be first to congratulate them on a job well done if I can see ajob > > > that is well done, now... I see nothing! > >

IMO, the main reason some here find complaints about the West brothers so offensive is because they have corresponded with them. They've chatted with them, given them some opinions on what the sim should contain, and now they feel they are connected with WSC in some (sad) way. David G Fisher "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Ggze7.264$[email hidden]... > I have to apologise here if you think I'm trolling. I'm not, I've been in > RAS for a number of years now, and in that time I've been known by some to > have fairly strong issues on a number of things such as WSC and beforethat, > GPL. > I'm not trying to troll, I wan to best sims like you all, I just have my > owns thoughts on things and come to my own conclusions instead of takingthe > same view as the masses, sometimes that is different to most peoples ideas > here, sometimes it's exactly the same, it's not trolling.... > > Fair play to the West's but I do wish they'd either keep quiet and get on > with developing and else show us a glimpse of some of the things they say > they have/will have. I just find it tedious to hear all the things WSCwill > have and how it will be e the best sim ever. > > You see those claims on the cover of every sim and arcade racer alike out > there and I'm not falling for it anymore, I personally just can't accept > "wishliss" as reality since I've seem so many, and I mean many, sims failto

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> deliver on these wishlists. > > > Mike Nunan <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I'm going to have to risk getting involved with an obvious troll here, > > but I can't let a posting like that pass. In what way do you think > > they have taken you for a fool? A fool you may or may not be, but I'm > > 99% certain you've never bet the farm on a large creative project > > which has consumed your whole life for a period of years. If you had, > > you wouldn't have made such a negative and tactless comment. Is it > > completely lost on you that if WSC went down the pan then it would > > simply impact our (expected) choice of leisure activities, while the > > consequences for the Wests would be rather more severe? I sincerely > > hope the Wests aren't bothering to read this ng these days, with some > > of the comments that are being made. Try a little insight and sympathy > > guys, we would like them to succeed after all! > > > > "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:<S4he7.149$[email hidden]>... > > > Carol Bekker <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:_vde7.50894$e%[email hidden]... > > > > What a great attitude. So no one out there is allowed to attempt > anything > > > if > > > > they dont have a track record. So please explain how one is to

obtain

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> said > > > > track record if everytime someone tries they get this kind of > treatment. > > > > > > > > > Yeah, of course they can attempt something but they can't take us for > fools > > > which is what the Wests' have done so far. > > > > > > You guys can't see it... they have you in the palm of their hand, you > > > believe everything they say but have produced nothing in 2 or 3

years... > > > > > > I'll be first to congratulate them on a job well done if I can see ajob > > > that is well done, now... I see nothing! > >

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: > IMO, the main reason some here find complaints about the West brothers so > offensive is because they have corresponded with them. They've chatted with > them, given them some opinions on what the sim should contain, and now they > feel they are connected with WSC in some (sad) way. No, the only reason is that complaints are plain silly because of the following points: - We know they work their ass off bringing us this game. - We should have known that promised release dates doesn't mean anything. I wish everyone would take Id's route and say "done when it's done" - Complaining has never lead to any positives at all - The guys are reading this newsgroup, even if they stopped posting. Some of the complaints here are just rude. (genreally speaking) - It's very encouraging to put in the extra work when all some people do is talking crap about what you are doing. - If the naysayers finally turn out right (god forbid), at least we've had a fun time while it lasted. Olav

"Olav K. Malmin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: > > > IMO, the main reason some here find complaints about the West brothersso > > offensive is because they have corresponded with them. They've chattedwith > > them, given them some opinions on what the sim should contain, and nowthey > > feel they are connected with WSC in some (sad) way. > > No, the only reason is that complaints are plain silly because of the > following points: Come on. Some people here have attached themselves to WSC, and they've done the same with Papyrus sims because some of the Papyrus guys occasionally post here, and visit VROC. I've seen beta testers do the same thing during testing. > - We know they work their ass off bringing us this game. I could say that about most developers of most racing sims. > - We should have known that promised release dates doesn't mean > anything. I wish everyone would take Id's route and say "done when > it's done" Not a big deal to me. Not worth getting upset about, or taking up their defense. > - Complaining has never lead to any positives at all ?!?!?!? This is bitch central. I do agree though. > - The guys are reading this newsgroup, even if they stopped > posting. Some of the complaints here are just rude. (genreally > speaking) They probably laugh it off and no what to expect here. Most developers don't bother with this group. > - It's very encouraging to put in the extra work when all some people > do is talking crap about what you are doing. This is one tiny little irrelevent group. Like i said before, they probably laugh it off but also understand that some of those (less nasty) complaints are valid. David G Fisher

Gee I wonder how Ubi_Ripp'off is doing with their F1RC patch? hmm? A Curious -Thom_j. :o)~ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

There is some truth in that... though I haven't conversed with them, nor suggested anything (apart from releasing a demo <g>) I certainly have the impression the West Brothers are making a sim "for us" and therefore negative comments rattle my cage more than otherwise would be the case. Guess I'm human (thank God!!). Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. "David G Fisher" wrote...

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> IMO, the main reason some here find complaints about the > West brothers so offensive is because they have corresponded > with them. They've chatted with them, given them some opinions > on what the sim should contain, and now they feel they are > connected with WSC in some (sad) way. > > David G Fisher

In article <SNWd7.61208$[email hidden]>, "Euan Gilmour" <egilmour@*NOSPAM*home.com> writes: > And while we're at it who is Godot? Who is John Galt?

On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 21:11:57 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >IMO, the main reason some here find complaints about the West brothers so >offensive is because they have corresponded with them. They've chatted with >them, given them some opinions on what the sim should contain, and now they >feel they are connected with WSC in some (sad) way. Well, I'm not offended by complaints, just I know that it's not true. I've corresponded with Chris, talk to him now & then, and I know from the talks that what they have is great & accurate, only gets better and I know that it will get to the market sooner or later. And feel only connected to WSC as a moving target for my own sim. ;-) Not that this helps any I guess for the general feel. I'll just stop. Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

On Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:09:27 -0700, Marty U'Ren <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>> Honestly I was just curious, it wasn't meant factiously. It's just I don't >> associate them with any previous projects. I was just wondering if they >> were Crammand's prot�g� or something. That's all. >> >> As to the other post I have seen the screen shots and read the interview's. >> The concept and the media look wonderful , but so many projects go sideways >> I was just wondering why so many hopes were pinned on this one. > >The West's are the keepers of the Holy Grail for those of us true to the goals >of the ultimate in computer motor racing simulation. They are that because >their goals for WSC are levels of car physics, graphics, playablility, etc., >beyond what has so far been achieved. > >They are able to do this not only because of their ability and commitment to >the project, but for the same reason you don't know of them....they are not >hog-tied to a corporate production shop. I believe the same was....WAS... true >with Papyrus before Sierra swallowed them up even though GPL and N4 came after >that. My understanding is GPL was totally Papy's vision not Sierra's and to all >indications will be the last of any sim from them that doesn't include the word >nascar. > >From what I've heard, admittedly second hand, is the Wests are working hard to >complete WSC. At least part of the delay now apparently is updating graphics >for the latest hardware with performance and effects that has not shown up in >any computer game to date. > >Keeping the faith :) > >Marty >

I put my sim-racing faith in two entities currently: Bugbear and ISI We will see true goodness from them long before WSC hits the streets. That doesn't mean that we won't ever see WSC, but I'm more of an agnostic-type when it comes to sims, and Bugbear and ISI have made me a believer . . . ;-) -- JB

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Woodie 83) writes: >In article <SNWd7.61208$[email hidden]>, >"Euan Gilmour" <egilmour@*NOSPAM*home.com> writes: > >> And while we're at it who is Godot? > >Who is John Galt? Who's on first? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Not MGI and Nascar Heat then JB? ;) "John Bodin" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet

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> > I put my sim-racing faith in two entities currently: > > Bugbear and ISI > > We will see true goodness from them long before WSC hits the streets. > > That doesn't mean that we won't ever see WSC, but I'm more of an > agnostic-type when it comes to sims, and Bugbear and ISI have made me > a believer . . . > > ;-) > > -- JB

GraDee wrote:

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> Olav K. Malmin <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > "GraDee" <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > > Carol Bekker <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:_vde7.50894$e%[email hidden]... > > > > What a great attitude. So no one out there is allowed to attempt > anything > > > if > > > > they dont have a track record. So please explain how one is to obtain > said > > > > track record if everytime someone tries they get this kind of > treatment. > > > > > > > > > Yeah, of course they can attempt something but they can't take us for > fools > > > which is what the Wests' have done so far. > > > > > > You guys can't see it... they have you in the palm of their hand, you > > > believe everything they say but have produced nothing in 2 or 3 years... > > > > > > I'll be first to congratulate them on a job well done if I can see a job > > > that is well done, now... I see nothing! > > > > And that is reason enough to put them down ? They read this newsgroup > > and disencouragement and insults is the last thing they need. > > Yeah, I also read this group and discouragement and put downs are the last > thing i need... > > Look, West have great intentions and I love that about them but so far I can > give you as much of my racing sim right this minute as they can of theirs. > (i.e. I have no sim of my own) > > I'm all for it, but after 2-3 years now and we have NOTHING, demos were > promise 12 month + ago, I mean, everyone gets a chance and a 2nd chance and > a third chance but you can't milk it. > If the West's just stop promising to include this that and the other thing, > keep quiet and surprise us all with a demo with 1 car, on 1 track for 1 lap > I'd be satisfied!

Easy answer...the defense of the West's comes from them being one of us...true racing sim enthusiasts, as opposed to in house developers who are gagged by their employers. It's seems natural to want them to succeed. Marty

GraDee wrote:

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> I have to apologise here if you think I'm trolling. I'm not, I've been in > RAS for a number of years now, and in that time I've been known by some to > have fairly strong issues on a number of things such as WSC and before that, > GPL. > I'm not trying to troll, I wan to best sims like you all, I just have my > owns thoughts on things and come to my own conclusions instead of taking the > same view as the masses, sometimes that is different to most peoples ideas > here, sometimes it's exactly the same, it's not trolling.... > > Fair play to the West's but I do wish they'd either keep quiet and get on > with developing and else show us a glimpse of some of the things they say > they have/will have. I just find it tedious to hear all the things WSC will > have and how it will be e the best sim ever. > > You see those claims on the cover of every sim and arcade racer alike out > there and I'm not falling for it anymore, I personally just can't accept > "wishliss" as reality since I've seem so many, and I mean many, sims fail to > deliver on these wishlists.

I think I see your problem. You don't see the difference between corporate marketing hype on the box of sim you paid for, and the first hand reports of those close to WSC which you haven't spent a penny for. Marty

GraDee wrote:

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> > My life will be no worse if WSC does not come about but look at GP3... > everyone believed their own hype and when the sim came most were > disappointed at the things it did NOT include. > Eventually this sim will have to be finished and how many times have we seen > sims released unfinished because it just took too long, er, I think almost > all sims fall into that group.

You mentioned elsewhere you were also critical of GPL in this regard. How so? Too bad you can't just sit back and enjoy the anticipation like some of us. :) Marty

Hmmm? Marty, I like this!! How'd you get so damm smart? :) "Marty U'Ren" wrote: | Easy answer...the defense of the West's comes from them being one ofus...true | racing sim enthusiasts, as opposed to in house developers who are gaggedby

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| their employers. | | It's seems natural to want them to succeed. | | Marty | |

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

Well written, Marty.......here, here! Tom

Gradee..... If you promise not to tell anyone....send me your email address and I'll let you borrow my copy of the WSC demo for a weekend. But, you have to send it back to me on Monday. Okay? Tom

Write more often Mike....nice stuff. Tom

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:xABe7.106535$[email hidden]... > IMO, the main reason some here find complaints about the West brothers so > offensive is because they have corresponded with them. They've chattedwith > them, given them some opinions on what the sim should contain, and nowthey > feel they are connected with WSC in some (sad) way. I would like to understand why the word (sad) is in that sentence? -- "Racing! - Science for the action minded." mark

Oh, um . . . well, MGI and NASCAR Heat represent the here-and-now, not necessarily the up-and-coming. <G> Then again, with Satoru's upcoming cars, NASCAR Heat may beat WSC to the punch . . . and quite possibly exceed it! :-D ;-) -- JB On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:02:19 GMT, "Thomas Heineman" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Not MGI and Nascar Heat then JB? ;) > >"John Bodin" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet >> >> I put my sim-racing faith in two entities currently: >> >> Bugbear and ISI >> >> We will see true goodness from them long before WSC hits the streets. >> >> That doesn't mean that we won't ever see WSC, but I'm more of an >> agnostic-type when it comes to sims, and Bugbear and ISI have made me >> a believer . . . >> >> ;-) >> >> -- JB > >

I really have to explain that? David G Fisher "mark jeangerard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:tFdf7.49286$[email hidden]... > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:xABe7.106535$[email hidden]... > > IMO, the main reason some here find complaints about the West brothersso

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> > offensive is because they have corresponded with them. They've chatted > with > > them, given them some opinions on what the sim should contain, and now > they > > feel they are connected with WSC in some (sad) way. > > I would like to understand why the word (sad) is in that sentence? > > -- > > "Racing! - Science for the action minded." > > mark > > >

"Thom j." wrote: > Hmmm? Marty, I like this!! How'd you get so damm smart? :) Seemed obvious to me. Basic psychology I guess. :)

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> > > "Marty U'Ren" wrote: > | Easy answer...the defense of the West's comes from them being one of > us...true > | racing sim enthusiasts, as opposed to in house developers who are gagged > by > | their employers. > | > | It's seems natural to want them to succeed. > | > | Marty > | > | > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

mark jeangerard wrote:

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> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:xABe7.106535$[email hidden]... > > IMO, the main reason some here find complaints about the West brothers so > > offensive is because they have corresponded with them. They've chatted > with > > them, given them some opinions on what the sim should contain, and now > they > > feel they are connected with WSC in some (sad) way. > > I would like to understand why the word (sad) is in that sentence?

Kind of a transference...it's David who is the sad one.

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> > > -- > > "Racing! - Science for the action minded." > > mark

No David, no explanation needed. We all know you're a jerk. David G Fisher wrote:

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> > I really have to explain that? > > David G Fisher > > > IMO, the main reason some here find complaints about the West brothers > so > > > offensive is because they have corresponded with them. They've chatted > > with > > > them, given them some opinions on what the sim should contain, and now > > they > > > feel they are connected with WSC in some (sad) way. > > > > I would like to understand why the word (sad) is in that sentence?

Yes we're fools, the whole lot of us! Hundreds of race sim fans like myself bought the lies, the deception, the outright fraud! Shame on us. It should have been obvious. They said they love racing. The talked respectfully about GPL. They said they were aiming very high, in hopes of delivering the ultimate sim. They kept us informed of the progress with screen shots and movies. They said it was taking longer than first anticipated. All along, they were taking us for fools. There's no release date. There's no distributor. There's no game. Damn them, those miserable bastards! To hell with the West Brothers, who ever they are. I bet they're not even cousins. They've made fools of us with this brilliant tarradiddle. A clever ruse designed to lull us into trusting them so they can embarrass us in the end by delivering nothing more than empty promises. I gave so much. I gave, and I gave, and I gave. Argh! I spent seconds of my life looking at the screen shots. Precious minutes watching the movies. I've even thought about this game in my spare time. I trusted them. For what? To be made a fool. I'm ashamed to be taken by such folly. I know I'll never trust . . . nay, I'll never love again. ;0) GraDee, we're only fools when we lose something. No matter what, I've enjoyed the *possibility* of a great idea becoming a reality. If it doesn't happen, I'll be disappointed but I'll have no regrets. I certainly won't feel foolish. It's been fun thinking about the first lap in WSC, even if it never actually happens. Hell, most great experiences are significantly enhanced by prolonged excited anticipation (sex perverts please ignore). If the actual experience never happens, the excited anticipation does not suddenly become regrettable. Bottom line, if WSC is never released, none of us should feel foolish for getting caught up in the hype. It's fun, enjoy. -- Joe Marques "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:S4he7.149$[email hidden]... > > Carol Bekker <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:_vde7.50894$e%[email hidden]... > > What a great attitude. So no one out there is allowed to attempt anything > if > > they dont have a track record. So please explain how one is to obtain said > > track record if everytime someone tries they get this kind of treatment. > > > Yeah, of course they can attempt something but they can't take us for fools > which is what the Wests' have done so far. > > You guys can't see it... they have you in the palm of their hand, you > believe everything they say but have produced nothing in 2 or 3 years... > > I'll be first to congratulate them on a job well done if I can see a job > that is well done, now... I see nothing! > > > >

LOL. -- Joe Marques "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > (Woodie 83) writes: > > >In article <SNWd7.61208$[email hidden]>, > >"Euan Gilmour" <egilmour@*NOSPAM*home.com> writes: > > > >> And while we're at it who is Godot? > > > >Who is John Galt? > > Who's on first? > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

It is a post about the West brothers, (My only hope for salvation.) and you may notice my only reply was to ask that question. Obviously, I'm in the dark. >They've chatted with them, given them some opinions on what the sim shouldcontain, and now >they feel they are connected with WSC in some (sad) way. I would like to understand why the word (sad) is in that sentence? -- "Racing! - Science for the action minded." mark "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Bref7.113197$[email hidden]... > I really have to explain that? > > David G Fisher > > "mark jeangerard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:tFdf7.49286$[email hidden]... > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:xABe7.106535$[email hidden]... > > > IMO, the main reason some here find complaints about the West brothers > so > > > offensive is because they have corresponded with them. They've chatted > > with > > > them, given them some opinions on what the sim should contain, and now > > they > > > feel they are connected with WSC in some (sad) way. > > > > I would like to understand why the word (sad) is in that sentence? > > > > -- > > > > "Racing! - Science for the action minded." > > > > mark > > > > > > >

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> > On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:02:19 GMT, "Thomas Heineman" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Not MGI and Nascar Heat then JB? ;) > > > >"John Bodin" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet > >> > >> I put my sim-racing faith in two entities currently: > >> > >> Bugbear and ISI > >> > >> We will see true goodness from them long before WSC hits the streets. > >> > >> That doesn't mean that we won't ever see WSC, but I'm more of an > >> agnostic-type when it comes to sims, and Bugbear and ISI have made me > >> a believer . . . > >> > >> ;-) > >> > >> -- JB > > > >

John- Could you elaborate on Bugbear and ISI for me? I am in the dark. Isn't ISI the wargame developer? Thanks.

In article <180820011042418551%[email hidden]>, Tim <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> > > > On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:02:19 GMT, "Thomas Heineman" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Not MGI and Nascar Heat then JB? ;) > > > > > >"John Bodin" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet > > >> > > >> I put my sim-racing faith in two entities currently: > > >> > > >> Bugbear and ISI > > >> > > >> We will see true goodness from them long before WSC hits the streets. > > >> > > >> That doesn't mean that we won't ever see WSC, but I'm more of an > > >> agnostic-type when it comes to sims, and Bugbear and ISI have made me > > >> a believer . . . > > >> > > >> ;-) > > >> > > >> -- JB > > > > > > > > John- > > Could you elaborate on Bugbear and ISI for me? I am in the dark. > Isn't ISI the wargame developer? Thanks.

ooops. Bugbear=Rally Trophy. OK. Have they done any racing sims before though?

ISI is the developer of SCGT and F12k and F1cs2k and the upcomming F12001. The rumour mill has it that the CART patch designed for F1cs2k will be a LICENSED product and as such, will mean it most likely will have more than just CART Champcar shapes plastered on F1 cars. (you didn't hear that here tho....) dave henrie "Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:180820011100217323%[email hidden]...

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> In article <180820011042418551%[email hidden]>, Tim > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:02:19 GMT, "Thomas Heineman" > > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > >Not MGI and Nascar Heat then JB? ;) > > > > > > > >"John Bodin" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet > > > >> > > > >> I put my sim-racing faith in two entities currently: > > > >> > > > >> Bugbear and ISI > > > >> > > > >> We will see true goodness from them long before WSC hits the

streets. > > > >> > > > >> That doesn't mean that we won't ever see WSC, but I'm more of an > > > >> agnostic-type when it comes to sims, and Bugbear and ISI have mademe

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> > > >> a believer . . . > > > >> > > > >> ;-) > > > >> > > > >> -- JB > > > > > > > > > > > > John- > > > > Could you elaborate on Bugbear and ISI for me? I am in the dark. > > Isn't ISI the wargame developer? Thanks. > > ooops. Bugbear=Rally Trophy. OK. Have they done any racing sims > before though?

hmm dave h, interesting.. we'll just have to wait then..eh? :) otay "Dave Henrie" wrote: | ISI is the developer of SCGT and F12k and F1cs2k and the upcomming F12001. | The rumour mill has it that the CART patch designed for F1cs2k will be a | LICENSED product and as such, will mean it most likely will have more than | just CART Champcar shapes plastered on F1 cars. | (you didn't hear that here tho....) | dave henrie --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QcCe7.106556$[email hidden]... > Come on. Some people here have attached themselves to WSC, and they'vedone > the same with Papyrus sims because some of the Papyrus guys occasionally > post here, and visit VROC. I've seen beta testers do the same thing during > testing. Hmmm. Like you did with Rally Championship?