This Isn't Going To Be Popular!

.....So I'm going to try to keep this as short as I can (and it will probably still be too long). Sorry. My reasons for making this post are based on my love of racing (real and simulated) and a desire to see simulated racing become respected as a form of racing where the skills of the sim driver approach, if not equal, the skills of the real-world driver. I believe I won't get too much argument that an enormous amount of good can come to the simulated racing community, its members (drivers), its software developers both individual and corporate, same for the hardware developers and manufacturers, leagues/series administrators...and so forth, if the real-world racing community embraced the simulated racing community with something on the order of equal stature and respect. Its no secret that I have spent the better part of the last five years (full-time for the last three years) trying to do my part to bridge the gap between sim racing and real racing. So I'm not going to go into all the supporting reasons why I think we'd benefit by being respected as racing drivers....by real-world racing drivers and their "community"....I kind of figure that's a given! I also want to state without any doubt, I totally defend the right of any member of this community to choose to enjoy sim racing however they wish to do so. If that means they want to treat this activity as a leisure-time, fun, game-playing activity.....that is 100% their right to do so. That includes the so called "wreckers" even! I would defend their right to wreck other drivers in a race with them....if that's their idea of "fun" they are entitled to it. They are just not entitled to wreck other drivers who don't share their sense of fun. As long as the "wreckers" all race together and not with other more serious-minded sim drivers/participants....that's Okay with me! So, for sake of simplicity......I would like to divide all the members of this community into two general groups: Serious sim racing drivers and game-playing sim racing drivers. Notice, I did not say "two equal groups".......I have no idea how many members of this community, if asked to place themselves in one group or the other.....would be in each group. We could say, "50/50"....but it really doesn't matter to me....it has nothing to do with what "point" I'd like to make. Let's say, there's a substantial number of people in both groups....together they make up the sim racing community I'm referring to in this post. So....to the point I would like to make: When someone who is engaging in an activity of sim racing that is clearly "game playing" (like wrecking cars instead of racing against cars)......tries to make that out to be serious race car driving......sim race car driving to be exact.......then I am going to stand up and shout "NO." Why? Because I'm trying to get real-racing people to look upon the activities of the "serious sim drivers" in this community with some respect.....respect because they have the same or close to the same skills as real race car drivers. I know that, but at this point, they don't know that! And, I can't do that if a vocal minority of "game players" in this online community keeps calling what they are doing "race driving".....it discredits everyone in the sim racing community when that happens. Or, should I say, it discredits them as far as the real-world racing community is concerned. And, that is the opposite of what I think....as do many others in this community....would be good for sim racing. I'm not talking about the "wreckers"....am I. No. They are a small minority....true. But they are not very vocal. I am talking about the GPL community. Not all of its members of course......but a far too large number of them.....and a way to large vocal number of them. I'm also talking about a few in the N4 community.....but its a relatively small number.....in my opinion at least. So, to many of you.....it might seem as if I'm attacking the GPL sim racing community.....that often referred to group of "elite" sim racers (a term I've heard too much of lately...makes me want to throw up sometimes).......and that's why I figured this was not going to be popular. Well, I'm not attacking anyone. But I am going to ask the GPL community, some (but not all)....of its members....to do me, and anyone else in this community that would like to see sim racing some day become a full-fledged e-sport form of racing....a very big favor! I don't know for sure how many others there are among you that would like to see sim racing become a respected form of racing......I know I can name a couple hundred.....and that's enough to ask this favor, I think? Here's the favor: Please stop referring to, in public places (like this newsgroup, race chat rooms, VROC, etc.)....referring to "hot-lapping," or the GPLRank - (Hot-lapping scoreboard).....as racing, race car driving or having anything to do with racing skills. I'm not asking you to stop doing it. I'm not asking you to stop liking to do it even! I am asking you to stop calling it "racing".....because it isn't. And, when members of the real-world racing community see you doing this.....you discredit everyone who is a serious sim driver in this community....and would like to bridge the gap between themselves and the real-world race drivers. I don't think this is an unfair "favor" to ask of you. I would like to make a few "points" in support of my request: 1. In case there is any doubt that this "game" activity of hot-lapping is being referred to by its participants as "racing"....here's a direct quote off a web page displaying the GPLRank list: **When players reach the magic sub zero score, they would have reached a milestone putting them in a category of excellence in driving. A point we all strive for.** That is a direct "cut and paste" copy from the following website: http://www.technobyte.com.au/Advantage1/GPL/subzero.html 2. Real world racing does not engage in any activity that even resembles "hot-lapping" or keeps any records or "lists" that would resemble the GPLRank system list of drivers. Nobody in real-world racing could afford to crash their cars....what....several hundred times (some of you say several thousand times).....in order to pull off some totally lucky "flyer lap" ...and then post it somewhere so they can be thought of as an "excellent race driver." Of course, nobody in real-world racing would live through such an activity, either. 3. The closest thing I can attribute in real-world racing to something that maybe some of the "hot-lappers" have confused to be similar to what they do.....and call it racing......is maybe "qualifying" or....."fastest race lap"......or maybe even "track record holder." But, let's be clear about this. No race driver I know of, made it to the "hall of fame" of public opinion (or the real one) in racing because they had a lot of races.....where they had the "fastest lap" in that race. They don't keep that score in real-world racing. I don't think anyone made it for having the most "track records" either. I know they don't put you in the hall of fame for having been on the most poles.....heck, no one can even remember who the pole sitter was....come Monday morning...usually (unless of course you also win the race on Sunday). The only thing they put you in the "hall of fame" for....is winning races....winning championships (based on winning/finishing position...in races). 4. I spent an hour.....maybe it should have been longer.....but I couldn't find a single GPL related website that listed all the GPL drivers in ranking of the number of races they've won. Or, the number of podium finishes they've had. I have no idea who the good race car drivers are in GPL....or what they do or where they race....and certainly not how they rank amongst themselves. I do know however, who all the best "game playing hot-lappers" are. That took me just a minute or two to find. Too bad, because no one in real racing cares about that....I know I certainly don't. It might be fun....but its not about racing. 5. In real-world racing.....there's a sub-amateur form of driving called "autocross".....and even a professional form of it in the USA, called "Pro Solo II" sanctioned by the SCCA. Its quite a fun activity....I've done it several times and its exciting and challenging...and not easy to beat the guys who do nothing else but autocrossing. For those of you that don't know what this is.....its racing against a clock....solo....through usually a parking lot full of "gates" marked out by yellow or orange cones. The car (usually they are ranked in classes) and driver who traverse the coned gates in the shortest time.....and don't knock any cones over (they penalize you for knocking over cones).....is declared the winner of the autocross event. They have second and third places too. Sometimes, if your autocross club has a lot of members, they can afford to give you little trophies or plaques if you come in first, second or third. I don't think anyone in real-world racing would confuse autocrossing with racing.....or autocross drivers with race car drivers....although many autocross drivers have moved up to amateur SCCA racing and then gone on to full professional racing as well. Autocrossing would actually be a level or two above "hot-lapping"...if they did hot-lapping in the real world.....because in autocrossing, you can't cut the corners off....go over the curbs...or go off into the grass.....because you'd knock over a cone and be penalized a second for doing that. Autocrossing would be a lot harder than hot-lapping...but they don't have hot-lapping so they don't think of it that way. 6. I have a lot of books about racing, race car driving, skills of racing....and so forth. I looked through all of them. I couldn't find anything in them about hot-lapping....although I could find a lot of references to how stupid it would be to attempt to run the fastest lap possible....when you were racing. That was even frowned upon during a qualifying run......nobody thought running a "flyer lap"....with all the risks that it had to go with it.....was worth winning a pole position for...no one would even remember by Monday morning anyway. I couldn't find a single driver ever having been given even a little trophy or a plaque..... for holding the track record at any race track...anywhere in the world - at any level of racing! At least, they do give those to autocross winners for being fast on parking lots! 7. Those same books had lots of lists of the attributes and skills that winning race car drivers possess. Here's some of them: ***Winning Racing Skills*** a. The ability to help create a race car setup that's the best for the conditions of the race. b. The ability to achieve a higher number of consistent fast laps than his/her competitors over the course of the entire race length. c. The ability to stay focused and concentrate on each turn of each lap.... lap after lap after lap, through the entire race without breech of his/her concentration, or lapses in judgment. d. The ability to spend the least attention on driving "fast" during a race, and the most attention on tactics and strategy. e. The ability to have mechanical empathy - manages the vehicle platform better than his/her competitors in the same race. [One thousand crashes per completed "hot-lap" is not having mechanical empathy!] f. The ability to expend the least amount of physical energy during a race...a relaxed driver in a calm mental state expends less energy, has improved endurance, concentration and the ability to continuously determine priorities and stay focused. I could go on with additions to this basic list, which came from the book "The Art Of Racing", co-authored by Don Alexander and Mark Martin. But this was the best example I had of a concise list of "winning race driving skills"......it was short and to the point. Please note that "hot-lapping" is not on this list....nor was it on any list of any of the books I looked at tonight. I doubt it would appear on any list anywhere....about race driving skills...at least! Kind of makes that sentence above on the GPLRank website.....look pretty stupid doesn't it? Scroll back up and read it again......now that you've read this far.....see what I mean? 8. Earlier this week, I had a chance to jump onto VROC one afternoon. I didn't have time to race....because just got GPL setup on my "other race box" a couple weeks back anyway...I'd be pretty non-competitive without having run GPL for about 18 months or so. But, I like talking racing with many of the VROC drivers (except when they start talking about their GPLRank...or PB's at such and such a track.......usually I get bored and sign off...or go race for a while or something)....and I am looking for some people who might want to be distributors of the BRD product line in a couple parts of the country where we need some help. It turns out there was a couple guys down in LA who were interested and one back east.....all open territories for us at the moment. I asked them to send me an email so I could get their email address easily and send them some info. Since I didn't know them previously, I also asked them to tell me a little about their sim racing experience....keeping it short and simple. This wasn't an employment application for an F1 race team as a driver! ....lol... All three sent me an email.....right away (within minutes)...it was great. However, the first one I read....started out with a disclaimer about not wanting to look like he was bragging about how good of a racing driver he was....but his GPLRank was......some number?? it make no sense to me (-2 I think?). I deleted that email. The other two guys started off with something of similar "disclaimers" about bragging....and managed to get to their GPLRank numbers before the end of the first paragraph. Those got deleted too. God forbid I'd end up having some "gamer" representing the professional line of BRD race controllers and cockpits.....to a real race team in their territory....if I should refer one of them to our distributor. Ain't no way that is going to happen! So, in closing....let me repeat this to all of you who enjoy hot-lapping....and have fun with your GPLRank. I totally defend your right to those activities and I wouldn't do anything to stop you from doing them...and enjoying them. I am asking you to do me the favor of stop referring to those things as "racing" or "race driving"....at least in all the public forums of the sim racing community. I don't care what you do in private email...or in "whisper chat"....for that matter. Here's a list of people I've either had business discussions with, and/or have had in one of our simulators (Pabst-Racing simulators) or raced with/against over the Internet in a racing simulator (and then talked some business)...over the last two years. Many of these people have actually been in my home. They are all from real-world racing and they are all interested in what all this sim racing stuff is about these days! They are: Ken Ude (Bell Helmets investor/owner), Brad Pierce (Pierce Motorsports, ACRL 2000 Season Driver Champion - City of Las Vegas), Kris Mellon (M & R Motorsports - engineered about 30 individual 24-Hours Of Daytona-Rolex race finishers and 6 winning cars over the last 25 years), Don Panoz (Panoz Motorsports - owner/promoter ALMS), Tom Seabolt (Ops Manager, Grand American Series, former team manager of Holbert Racing), Andy Evans (former owner of IMSA, former owner of ALMS, owner of 7 IRL Indy500 qualifiers in 1997, personal friend of Bill Gates), Jacques Coutre' (Operations Manager/owner, Jim Russell Racing Schools), John Zudell (Director of Track Developments, SMI Corp), Humpy Wheeler (President, SMI Corp), Tony Sakkis (writer, "Racer Magazine"), Ron Huber (Bell Helmets investor/owner, Winston West driver), Rob Weston (Director of Marketing, Jim Russell Racing Schools), JD Kramer (WoO driver/team owner), David Grace (Director, Rockingham Motor Speedway - Rockingham, England)...and the following drivers: Dave McEntee (ALMS driver), Mika Hakinnen (F1 driver, McLaren), Alan McNish (ALMS driver, F1 test driver), Randy Pobst (ALMS driver), Scott Sharp (IRL driver), Ward Burton (Winston Cup driver), Steve Park (Winston Cup driver), Jeff Gordon (Winston Cup driver), Bobby Labonte (Winston Cup driver), Dale Earnhardt, Jr. (Winston Cup driver), Robby Gordon (IRL/Winston Cup driver). This list is by no means a complete list of everyone we've talked to or had business discussions with from real-world racing...and its not in any order because I just typed it off the top of my head (apologies to anyone who's name I misspelled for that reason). I would love it someday if I could let any one on that list sit next to me while I entered a VROC GPL race....and chat with the drivers in VROC. But, I can't do that today. God forbid...any of these people would know how to access this r.a.s. newsgroup.....it wouldn't take but a few posts like those below ("GPL and not left-foot braking..." and others)...and I'd be laughed all the way back to Missouri by these folks. The entire sim racing community would lose if that happened. So, please....could you guys "hot-lap" all you want...but just stop talking about it as if it was racing? Please? Regards, Tom Pabst

>"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote Sure, do whatever you want if it please you. I don't see any official definition of the word "racing". If people want to hotlap, race online or offline, it's their own judgement. You are racing if you do SOLO-type motorsport events, no? Yep, it's hotlapping. Same for Rally racing, which is basically whom can hotlap the best within one try. I don't see anything different if somebody has more then one try. "real-racing people to look upon the activities of the "serious sim drivers" in this community with some respect" You've wrote about that at least 50 times in the past years and nothing has changed yet. Perhaps you could simply give it up? You, Don Wilshe, etc... It's a waste of time (no harsh feelings there Tom). It's just a bunch of 0's and 1's. Yes, I've passed by that also. Stop talking racing in itself, whatever it's simulated or not, that much seriously. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Francois...... What are you expecting will change? Especially in something as incredibly short as one year. And, I've mentioned it a lot more than 50 times....lol.. When is the last time you worked with a real-world professional driver in a sophisticated racing simulator? Have you ever done that? Have you seen them sweat? Have you seen them refuse to get out of the simulator even to make a press conference appointment....because they wanted to keep practicing (their words not mine)? I watched Alan McNish refuse to get out of our simulator last year at the ALMS race at Sears....EVEN after the Audi team manager came over and told him the team meeting was waiting for him. Then that Team manager stood there for the next half hour......with his mouth open watching Alan turn laps in the simulator. Francois.....Alan was driving in our Lotus-49 simulator.....with a silly version of a "stock" GPL install at 800 res....because all we had in the computer at the time was a V3 card so we could run TV out. This was something we'd set up for kids and fans to play in! In this "year of 50 times".....a real world race track simulated three configurations of a change it need to make to the track. It let the real-world drivers who were going to have to race on one of them (when the real version was actually built)....race on all three in our simulator....and then vote on which one they liked best. In this "year of 50 times".....the winning configuration of that simulated track "voted by the Winston Cup drivers" was actually built....to the tune of several million dollars! Guess what....the real race that ran on the real track....by the same drivers who had voted for it to be built.......ran EXACTLY with the same characteristics as all the "test racing" we'd done on it over the Internet......with guys you and I have been racing with/against on TEN and WON net.......for the last three/four years! Guys like Alan Boyd and George Sandman and Bob Rowden......sim drivers racing at their kitchen tables (in the case of George Sandman)....played a major role in a multi-million dollar construction ...change of configuration of a real race track....and the real race track performed exactly like it had for them over the Internet racing we did. Are you telling me that's not something significant? Are you telling me that Dale Earnhardt, Jr....on national television....says he's more confident at running this year at Watkins Glen because he was practicing a lot more on a better simulated version of it....NASCAR 4....all week before the race? That's not significant, you say? Isn't that some progress, Francois? Tom

And Francois..... The next time you equate me to Don Wilshe.....I will be coming up to Canada to pay a visit to you.....or sending Guido up to see you instead of me! You won't like Guido as much as me. He does really bad things to arms and legs......lol.... Just kidding you.....(but not about the thing with Don Wilshe.....Oh, please Francois...that was a really low blow). Tom

Wow Tom, you're enthusiasm is mind boggling! :) I guess I have a similar approach to sim racing. I don't do hotlapping much and all my 'pb' laptimes (sorry :) have been set mostly in qualifying sessions. I always try to make my sim racing experience as realistic a s possible... full strengh FF settings, so I feel I'm really working hard, long races and right foot braking, etc.. I still crash too much though. Good luck with your crusade :) Tom Pabst wrote: > ALOT :) But you should read it. > > >

Thanks Rob.....your post will probably be among the few....as soon as Europe wakes up and reads that post. I didn't write it to be "popular"....I wrote it because I think it was the right thing to do for sim racing, for this sim racing community. Just to be clear....everyone has PB's at every track....I do too...and I pretty much know what they are in my head. What I was objecting to....was an organized way of comparing my PB's to your PB's....and calling that "racing"....or saying one of us has better "racing skills" over the other...based on our PB's. You know? I don't need to compare myself to you that way anyway. We are both race drivers...what we do is "compare our racing skills"...by racing each other in direct competition! That's what racing is! If I race you in 8 races....and I win 3 and you win 5 of them.....well, over those 8 races....clearly you were the better driver! Who cares what our individual fastest lap was? I don't...do you? Thanks for the encouraging remarks.......they are very much appreciated. Tom

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Eopf7.11334$[email hidden]... > .....So I'm going to try to keep this as short as I can (and it will > probably still be too long). Sorry. >snip > I also want to state without any doubt, I totally defend the right of any > member of this community to choose to enjoy sim racing however they wishto > do so. If that means they want to treat this activity as a leisure-time, > fun, game-playing activity.....that is 100% their right to do so. Reasonable attitude. 18kb of snip.. > So, please....could you guys "hot-lap" all you want...but just stoptalking > about it as if it was racing? Please? > > Regards, > > Tom Pabst I dont hotlap much either - but you're contradicting yourself here. What is hot-lapping if not a man and a car racing against the track? Is qualifying for a race not hotlapping? I really dont see why it took 19kb to say "Why do people call Hotlapping Racing" The Sim-Racing world and the Real-Racing world are VERY VERY different things - and any reasonable individual can see that - so why one should restrict the way it talks to become more accesable to the other is beyond me. I recently read an interview with Michael Schumacher who mentioned that any racing game he had tried was so far from reality as to be of no actual use for a racing driver So before we start debating what terminology we use - we should focus on better simulation of the art of racing and all that it entails (hotlapping, racing, ANYTHING!) Doug

Hi Tom, IMO a good sim can teach you a lot more about racing than some in this group and outside are aware of. Of course it's not the real thing, and of course sims don't simulate the behaviour of the particular real car they were modelled after perfectly. But, a good racing sim can simulate a real car's behaviour to an amazing depth, and you don't have to be a Nascar or F1 driver to know that what an N4 car does is pretty realistic if you compare it to a powerful, normal street car. You can't have the fear factor, the G-forces, the real tracks in all detail, the financial considerations etc., but a good sim can still be quite a good approximation to some of the core aspects of driving a real car at the limit. One aspect where a good online racing sim IMO is seriously realistic is the racing aspect. The mental and psychological aspects of racing, the strategy, the attitudes that make you a winner or a loser. In online racing, you can learn a lot about yourself, and the tactics and strategies, both in the race and off the track. If you look at what's happening in online leagues, that's often amazingly close to real racing in the core aspects. Not to any particular racing series in every detail, but to the basic do's and don'ts of racing in general. The fact that Schumi says racing sims aren't any good IMO mainly rises the question which sims he's seen, which input devices he's used, and how much time he's spent on exploring them. I'd sure like to try and give him a race online and see whether he'd enjoy it or not :-) Yet, I'm not doing going to do you the favour you ask, because I think that it is neither necessary, nor a good idea. Sim racing is fun and we should treat it as that. But anyway, sim racing will become a lot more popular among racing fans in the next 20 years. A lot of people would like to race, but they can't due to the constraints we all know. Sim racing is a great alternative, and as technology and sims get better, the immersion factor increases, and the problem of sim racing not being taken serious will go away al on its own. I can see a time where we have sponsored sim races and league races broadcast on the Internet and being watched by thousands of spectators, with advertising and all. The technology for this will probably be cascaded broadcasting servers, and that could AAMOF even be done today. The next step to prepare this is to have a sim to use such broadcast servers or intelligent routers, who knows how it'll be done, to have the option to have personalized car paint schemes and also personalized advertising on the track which gets transmitted to all spectators before the race. Maybe in ten years we'll have the bandwidth for this? I don't know. But I firmly believe the time will come. Achim

Tom Pabst wrote:

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> I would love it someday if I could let any one on that list sit next to me > while I entered a VROC GPL race....and chat with the drivers in VROC. But, > I can't do that today. God forbid...any of these people would know how to > access this r.a.s. newsgroup.....it wouldn't take but a few posts like those > below ("GPL and not left-foot braking..." and others)...and I'd be laughed > all the way back to Missouri by these folks. The entire sim racing > community would lose if that happened.

Why don't you start your own GPL league? Advertise for drivers who share your thoughts and goals, build up a community of like minded people, some from real racing maybe. That's what I'd ALREADY be doing if I had your goals at the forefront of my life, rather than trying to mould an already existing community that really don't give a shit. Gerry

I'm not fast. I'm not even consistant. I'm bad at racing, which to me means driving competively against other drivers. But I do know how to look up facts. :-) <Snipping ahead!> "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse news:Eopf7.11334$[email hidden]...

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> 1. In case there is any doubt that this "game" activity of hot-lapping is > being referred to by its participants as "racing"....here's a direct quote > off a web page displaying the GPLRank list: **When players reach the magic > sub zero score, they would have reached a milestone putting them in a > category of excellence in driving. A point we all strive for.** That is a > direct "cut and paste" copy from the following website: > http://www.technobyte.com.au/Advantage1/GPL/subzero.html >

Nowhere on that page does the auther refer to racing. He writes about driving, which is related but not at all the same thing. I have never heard anybody use the term "racing" as a synonym for "driving".

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> 4. I spent an hour.....maybe it should have been longer.....but I couldn't > find a single GPL related website that listed all the GPL drivers in ranking > of the number of races they've won. Or, the number of podium finishes > they've had. I have no idea who the good race car drivers are in GPL....or > what they do or where they race....and certainly not how they rank amongst > themselves. I do know however, who all the best "game playing hot-lappers" > are. That took me just a minute or two to find. Too bad, because no one in > real racing cares about that....I know I certainly don't. It might be > fun....but its not about racing. >

Did you check any league sites? Most of them have points standings based on finishes in the league races. And that is also the way they find the champion. Marvelous concept.

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> 6. I have a lot of books about racing, race car driving, skills of > racing....and so forth. I looked through all of them. I couldn't find > anything in them about hot-lapping....although I could find a lot of > references to how stupid it would be to attempt to run the fastest lap > possible....when you were racing. That was even frowned upon during a > qualifying run......nobody thought running a "flyer lap"....with all the > risks that it had to go with it.....was worth winning a pole position > for...no one would even remember by Monday morning anyway. I couldn't find > a single driver ever having been given even a little trophy or a plaque..... > for holding the track record at any race track...anywhere in the world - at > any level of racing! At least, they do give those to autocross winners for > being fast on parking lots! >

Read Carroll Smith's "Drive to Win", pp. 5-13 to 5-17 on the importance of qualifying first.

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> 8. Earlier this week, I had a chance to jump onto VROC one afternoon. I > didn't have time to race....because just got GPL setup on my "other race > box" a couple weeks back anyway...I'd be pretty non-competitive without > having run GPL for about 18 months or so. But, I like talking racing with > many of the VROC drivers (except when they start talking about their > GPLRank...or PB's at such and such a track.......usually I get bored and > sign off...or go race for a while or something)....and I am looking for some > people who might want to be distributors of the BRD product line in a couple > parts of the country where we need some help. It turns out there was a > couple guys down in LA who were interested and one back east.....all open > territories for us at the moment. I asked them to send me an email so I > could get their email address easily and send them some info. Since I > didn't know them previously, I also asked them to tell me a little about > their sim racing experience....keeping it short and simple. This wasn't an > employment application for an F1 race team as a driver! ....lol... All > three sent me an email.....right away (within minutes)...it was great. > However, the first one I read....started out with a disclaimer about not > wanting to look like he was bragging about how good of a racing driver he > was....but his GPLRank was......some number?? it make no sense to me (-2 I > think?). I deleted that email. The other two guys started off with > something of similar "disclaimers" about bragging....and managed to get to > their GPLRank numbers before the end of the first paragraph. Those got > deleted too. God forbid I'd end up having some "gamer" representing the > professional line of BRD race controllers and cockpits.....to a real race > team in their territory....if I should refer one of them to our distributor. > Ain't no way that is going to happen! >

So let me get this straight: You asked them to send you some personal information, so that you could put them on your mailing list/whatever regarding BRD. They wrote to you with information including the only available objective (though flawed) benchmark for driving, and you just deleted their mails? I sure hope you never include unasked for information to your bank, if they treat you in the same fashion. "We're very sorry, Mr. Pabst, but as you mentioned your wife's age in your letter we saw fit to cancel your accounts here. We did want that information."

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> So, in closing....let me repeat this to all of you who enjoy > hot-lapping....and have fun with your GPLRank. I totally defend your right > to those activities and I wouldn't do anything to stop you from doing > them...and enjoying them. I am asking you to do me the favor of stop > referring to those things as "racing" or "race driving"....at least in all > the public forums of the sim racing community. I don't care what you do in > private email...or in "whisper chat"....for that matter. >

Easy, as we don't. We will give you a secondary bonus by not referring to racing cars as bikes.

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> I would love it someday if I could let any one on that list sit next to me > while I entered a VROC GPL race....and chat with the drivers in VROC. But, > I can't do that today. God forbid...any of these people would know how to > access this r.a.s. newsgroup.....it wouldn't take but a few posts like those > below ("GPL and not left-foot braking..." and others)...and I'd be laughed > all the way back to Missouri by these folks. The entire sim racing > community would lose if that happened. >

Nice friends you have. Cocky, intolerant buggers all, I suppose. But then they probably wouldn't understand what the abbreviation "rec" in rec.autos.simulators stands for and thus believe usenet was their own private domain to redefine as they see fit. Starting by misrepresenting the views of others is a good start. Cheers, Jens

Douglas Ellison wrote: > The Sim-Racing world and the Real-Racing world are VERY VERY different > things - and any reasonable individual can see that - so why one should > restrict the way it talks to become more accesable to the other is beyond > me. Not really... if you're online with a wheel/pedals and your in a racing situation then the only thing that seperates it from real racing is the wind in your face and risk of injury if you crash! > I recently read an interview with Michael Schumacher who mentioned that any > racing game he had tried was so far from reality as to be of no actual use > for a racing driver What was it? F197 on the playstation? I doubt he has tried anything of the calibre of GPL or N4. Anyway, I've heard conflicting reports of what he has actually said anyway! Plus, MS is a wanker. Rob

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Now a response: Sorry Tom this time I really *don't agree* with your comments! This is "rec.autos.simulators" and in many of the "sim-games" it will state, Qualify, PB, Racing, and much more! Of course this *isnt* "real life" racing and anyone that thinks this is, are diluted! So no matter what word or words that are used here it still *is* and always will be "rec.autos.simulators" here. Bottom line: to me Tom, Your taking words & dissecting them when they do not need to be! This newsgroup is just that a newsgroup for 'rec.sim'ers' if you will no more, no less. -Thom_j. "Tom Pabst" wrote: | So, please....could you guys "hot-lap" all you want...but just stoptalking

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| about it as if it was racing? Please? | | Regards, | | Tom Pabst | |

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You're right, I do take offense from your post (read on past my indignance, however). Mostly because, in your comment about the right-foot braking thread, you infer myself and Alan Orton as offenders. I dare you to find any post of mine where I confused the terms simracing/simracer and hotlapping/hotlapper, though I do admit I use a stricter definition of the latter term (I define hotlapping as "exploiting inaccuracies in the sim's modelling of reality to go faster"). In fact, I'm bordering on anal with regard to how I approach GPL (and simracing in general). I refuse to use closed coast side differential, I refuse to left foot brake, I refuse to give it more than 8/10ths in a race unless I have to. I will admit I use GPLRank and MonsterRank as a motivator for general practise, but I do not hotlap with the sole aim of improving it. I run only as many laps for each track/chassis combination until my times to stabilize to within a couple 1/10ths before moving on. Perhaps the average simracer does take it closer to 10/10ths more often than he should, but even Schumacher knows at 10/10ths there is a realistic chsnce of him coming unstuck. As for Alan: you claim not to know who the good racers are, well, if I were asked to name 10 on the spot, Alan would be on that list. This man is an extremely talented racer and, to my knowledge, does not indulge in hotlapping (my definition) at all. Ok, so he has an "impressive" GPLRank, but so do all other drivers I would consider good racers. That you, by extension, should heap him, myself and the other posters in that thread (whom I do not know well enough to defend in more detail) on the same pile as wreckers, hotlappers and (god forbid) "gamers", just because we replied to someone who believed he could no longer improve without left foot braking, I find very insulting indeed. Anyway, about the general gist of your post... I do take my simracing seriously. I keep reasonably fit for my simracing, I, unless it's very urgent or important, schedule work around my simracing commitments. I agree with you the terms "simracing", "simracer", and "racing simulation" should be defined and judged according to how accurately reality is simulated. I also do consider simracing amateur motorsport. I have no trouble talking about it as if it were. In fact the reverse is true, I have trouble discussing it in the same way I do Quake or UT. However, there's two things you need to consider, IMO. 1) simracing is democratic. Not only in the running cost department, but more importantly in the ability department. Everyone has access to the top level the minute they have an internet connection and a copy of the game. A governing body, sanctioning various _publicised_ feeder series, compiling results and only granting access by way of licence to the top level after good results were obtained in a proper, simracing fashion in said feeder series is absent. If you manage to get that in place, IMO, you have a realistic chance of doing what you envisage, i.e. establishing the moral high ground. In the absense of such series you find things like GPLRank take on a a yardstick role. I could say "I currently lead the GPVL FV series", but to someone unfamiliar with that series it means nothing (actually it doesn't mean much as I lead it because of competing in the most rounds). Referring to my +10.07 GPLRank is more meaninfull as there is a more general appreciation of what level is required to acchieve that particular number. Sub 1m30s at Monza becomes a benchmark akin to winning a Formula Ford race. In the absense of recognised racing acchievements like the Marlboro Masters at Zandvoort other means are pushed into service to judge relative merit. 2) Hotlapping is a valid discipline within simracing, IMO. I choose not to do it, nor do I like being aligned with the activity, but I would not like to be the one to deny it. Some of the exponents of the discipline even argue one is not truly a sim*racer* unless one does whatever is necessary to go fast in the sim, regardless of whether the option is available to their real life counterparts. You say there's no hotlapping in real racing... I beg to differ. What would you call qualifying in F1? -As I write this Bernoldi has just gone into T1 at the Hungaroring in a big opposite lock braking drift. Not something he'd be prepared to do for 77 laps tomorrow, I'm sure. What would you call testing? The testdrivers job is to put the car over the limit repeatedly (obviously in a more controlled fashion than your average simracer) in order to change the car in order to push that limit ever further away and go faster.... that's hotlapping by your definition. Corners are being cut every day in real racing. Stirling Moss cut corners at the Ring, so did Jacky Ickx. In fact, the Ring's Karussell, arguably the most famous corner in motorracing, came into being when some guy in the early 30's figured out it could be taken quicker by cutting down into the drainage ditch. Add to this some of the "hotlappers" in GPL are also formidable racers and things get very muddled indeed. Anyhow, I applaud your efforts to make this stuff legit, just think you could do with looking beyond GPLRank to decide whether someone is serious about his racing or not. Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Eopf7.11334$[email hidden]... > .....So I'm going to try to keep this as short as I can (and it will > probably still be too long). Sorry. > Someone needs to take away your freaking keyboard and never give it back. SHEESH!

Very good post Tom, also very long and while i didn't read the whole thing for fear I would lose a whole day I agree with you on alot of points. Ask anyone that attends a LikeReal lan event if they take it seriously. You can bet that a good majority of us take it very seriously. Ask anyone that runs a league what they think the potential is. Last year at a LAN event in Indy we had a whole lounge full of people that probably knew nothing about simracing with their eyes glued to the big screens in the rear of the sports bar/restaurant. They were cheering and had no idea it wasn't real. But, back to your post. Simracing will never attain the status that say a Nascar organization has unless they aquire a large spectator following. It will be a long hard road and the trek will be going long after I expire. We have come a long way over the last 6+ years and from here on in it's gets slower and tougher. There are too many variables to consider when people start taking simracing seriously, most of all would be the ability to cheat and the measures that can be taken to ensure this doesn't happen. I think for simracing the future would be dedicated gaming machines that keep the security issues to a minimum, and where all available resources are designed to focus on the tak at hand. Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Eopf7.11334$[email hidden]... .....So I'm going to try to keep this as short as I can (and it will probably still be too long). Sorry. My reasons for making this post are based on my love of racing (real and simulated) and a desire to see simulated racing become respected as a form of racing where the skills of the sim driver approach, if not equal, the skills of the real-world driver. I believe I won't get too much argument that an enormous amount of good can come to the simulated racing community, its members (drivers), its software developers both individual and corporate, same for the hardware developers and manufacturers, leagues/series administrators...and so forth, if the real-world racing community embraced the simulated racing community with something on the order of equal stature and respect. Its no secret that I have spent the better part of the last five years (full-time for the last three years) trying to do my part to bridge the gap between sim racing and real racing. So I'm not going to go into all the supporting reasons why I think we'd benefit by being respected as racing drivers....by real-world racing drivers and their "community"....I kind of figure that's a given! I also want to state without any doubt, I totally defend the right of any member of this community to choose to enjoy sim racing however they wish to do so. If that means they want to treat this activity as a leisure-time, fun, game-playing activity.....that is 100% their right to do so. That includes the so called "wreckers" even! I would defend their right to wreck other drivers in a race with them....if that's their idea of "fun" they are entitled to it. They are just not entitled to wreck other drivers who don't share their sense of fun. As long as the "wreckers" all race together and not with other more serious-minded sim drivers/participants....that's Okay with me! So, for sake of simplicity......I would like to divide all the members of this community into two general groups: Serious sim racing drivers and game-playing sim racing drivers. Notice, I did not say "two equal groups".......I have no idea how many members of this community, if asked to place themselves in one group or the other.....would be in each group. We could say, "50/50"....but it really doesn't matter to me....it has nothing to do with what "point" I'd like to make. Let's say, there's a substantial number of people in both groups....together they make up the sim racing community I'm referring to in this post. So....to the point I would like to make: When someone who is engaging in an activity of sim racing that is clearly "game playing" (like wrecking cars instead of racing against cars)......tries to make that out to be serious race car driving......sim race car driving to be exact.......then I am going to stand up and shout "NO." Why? Because I'm trying to get real-racing people to look upon the activities of the "serious sim drivers" in this community with some respect.....respect because they have the same or close to the same skills as real race car drivers. I know that, but at this point, they don't know that! And, I can't do that if a vocal minority of "game players" in this online community keeps calling what they are doing "race driving".....it discredits everyone in the sim racing community when that happens. Or, should I say, it discredits them as far as the real-world racing community is concerned. And, that is the opposite of what I think....as do many others in this community....would be good for sim racing. I'm not talking about the "wreckers"....am I. No. They are a small minority....true. But they are not very vocal. I am talking about the GPL community. Not all of its members of course......but a far too large number of them.....and a way to large vocal number of them. I'm also talking about a few in the N4 community.....but its a relatively small number.....in my opinion at least. So, to many of you.....it might seem as if I'm attacking the GPL sim racing community.....that often referred to group of "elite" sim racers (a term I've heard too much of lately...makes me want to throw up sometimes).......and that's why I figured this was not going to be popular. Well, I'm not attacking anyone. But I am going to ask the GPL community, some (but not all)....of its members....to do me, and anyone else in this community that would like to see sim racing some day become a full-fledged e-sport form of racing....a very big favor! I don't know for sure how many others there are among you that would like to see sim racing become a respected form of racing......I know I can name a couple hundred.....and that's enough to ask this favor, I think? Here's the favor: Please stop referring to, in public places (like this newsgroup, race chat rooms, VROC, etc.)....referring to "hot-lapping," or the GPLRank - (Hot-lapping scoreboard).....as racing, race car driving or having anything to do with racing skills. I'm not asking you to stop doing it. I'm not asking you to stop liking to do it even! I am asking you to stop calling it "racing".....because it isn't. And, when members of the real-world racing community see you doing this.....you discredit everyone who is a serious sim driver in this community....and would like to bridge the gap between themselves and the real-world race drivers. I don't think this is an unfair "favor" to ask of you. I would like to make a few "points" in support of my request: 1. In case there is any doubt that this "game" activity of hot-lapping is being referred to by its participants as "racing"....here's a direct quote off a web page displaying the GPLRank list: **When players reach the magic sub zero score, they would have reached a milestone putting them in a category of excellence in driving. A point we all strive for.** That is a direct "cut and paste" copy from the following website: http://www.technobyte.com.au/Advantage1/GPL/subzero.html 2. Real world racing does not engage in any activity that even resembles "hot-lapping" or keeps any records or "lists" that would resemble the GPLRank system list of drivers. Nobody in real-world racing could afford to crash their cars....what....several hundred times (some of you say several thousand times).....in order to pull off some totally lucky "flyer lap" ...and then post it somewhere so they can be thought of as an "excellent race driver." Of course, nobody in real-world racing would live through such an activity, either. 3. The closest thing I can attribute in real-world racing to something that maybe some of the "hot-lappers" have confused to be similar to what they do.....and call it racing......is maybe "qualifying" or....."fastest race lap"......or maybe even "track record holder." But, let's be clear about this. No race driver I know of, made it to the "hall of fame" of public opinion (or the real one) in racing because they had a lot of races.....where they had the "fastest lap" in that race. They don't keep that score in real-world racing. I don't think anyone made it for having the most "track records" either. I know they don't put you in the hall of fame for having been on the most poles.....heck, no one can even remember who the pole sitter was....come Monday morning...usually (unless of course you also win the race on Sunday). The only thing they put you in the "hall of fame" for....is winning races....winning championships (based on winning/finishing position...in races). 4. I spent an hour.....maybe it should have been longer.....but I couldn't find a single GPL related website that listed all the GPL drivers in ranking of the number of races they've won. Or, the number of podium finishes they've had. I have no idea who the good race car drivers are in GPL....or what they do or where they race....and certainly not how they rank amongst themselves. I do know however, who all the best "game playing hot-lappers" are. That took me just a minute or two to find. Too bad, because no one in real racing cares about that....I know I certainly don't. It might be fun....but its not about racing. 5. In real-world racing.....there's a sub-amateur form of driving called "autocross".....and even a professional form of it in the USA, called "Pro Solo II" sanctioned by the SCCA. Its quite a fun activity....I've done it several times and its exciting and challenging...and not easy to beat the guys who do nothing else but autocrossing. For those of you that don't know what this is.....its racing against a clock....solo....through usually a parking lot full of "gates" marked out by yellow or orange cones. The car (usually they are ranked in classes) and driver who traverse the coned gates in the shortest time.....and don't knock any cones over (they penalize you for knocking over cones).....is declared the winner of the autocross event. They have second and third places too. Sometimes, if your autocross club has a lot of members, they can afford to give you little trophies or plaques if you come in first, second or third. I don't think anyone in real-world racing would confuse autocrossing with racing.....or autocross drivers with race car drivers....although many autocross drivers have moved up to amateur SCCA racing and then gone on to full professional racing as well. Autocrossing would actually be a level or two above "hot-lapping"...if they did hot-lapping in the real world.....because in autocrossing, you can't cut the corners off....go over the curbs...or go off into the grass.....because you'd knock over a cone and be penalized a second for doing that. Autocrossing would be a lot harder than hot-lapping...but they don't have hot-lapping so they don't think of it that way. 6. I have a lot of books about racing, race car driving, skills of racing....and so forth. I looked through all of them. I couldn't find anything in them about hot-lapping....although I could find a lot of references to how stupid it would be to attempt to run the fastest lap possible....when you were racing. That was even frowned upon during a qualifying run......nobody thought running a "flyer lap"....with all the risks that it had to go with it.....was worth winning a pole position for...no one would even remember by Monday morning anyway. I couldn't find a single driver ever having been given even a little trophy or a plaque..... for holding the track record at any race track...anywhere in the world - at any level of racing! At least, they do give those to autocross winners for being fast on parking lots! 7. Those same books had lots of lists of the attributes and skills that winning race car drivers possess. Here's some of them: ***Winning Racing Skills*** a. The ability to help create a race car setup that's the best for the conditions of the race. b. The ability to achieve a higher number of consistent fast laps than his/her competitors over the course of the entire race length. c. The ability to stay focused and concentrate on each turn of each lap.... lap after lap after lap, through the entire race without breech of his/her concentration, or lapses in judgment. d. The ability to spend the least attention on driving "fast" during a race, and the most attention on tactics and strategy. e. The ability to have mechanical empathy - manages the vehicle platform better than his/her competitors in the same race. [One thousand crashes per completed "hot-lap" is not having mechanical empathy!] f. The ability to expend the least amount of physical energy during a race...a relaxed driver in a calm mental state expends less energy, has improved endurance, concentration and the ability to continuously determine priorities and stay focused. I could go on with additions to this basic list, which came from the book "The Art Of Racing", co-authored by Don Alexander and Mark Martin. But this was the best example I had of a concise list of "winning race driving skills"......it was short and to the point. Please note that "hot-lapping" is not on this list....nor was it on any list of any of the books I looked at tonight. I doubt it would appear on any list anywhere....about race driving skills...at least! Kind of makes that sentence above on the GPLRank website.....look pretty stupid doesn't it? Scroll back up and read it again......now that you've read this far.....see what I mean? 8. Earlier this week, I had a chance to jump onto VROC one afternoon. I didn't have time to race....because just got GPL setup on my "other race box" a couple weeks back anyway...I'd be pretty non-competitive without having run GPL for about 18 months or so. But, I like talking racing with many of the VROC drivers (except when they start talking about their GPLRank...or PB's at such and such a track.......usually I get bored and sign off...or go race for a while or something)....and I am looking for some people who might want to be distributors of the BRD product line in a couple parts of the country where we need some help. It turns out there was a couple guys down in LA who were interested and one back east.....all open territories for us at the moment. I asked them to send me an email so I could get their email address easily and send them some info. Since I didn't know them previously, I also asked them to tell me a little about their sim racing experience....keeping it short and simple. This wasn't an employment application for an F1 race team as a driver! ....lol... All three sent me an email.....right away (within minutes)...it was great. However, the first one I read....started out with a disclaimer about not wanting to look like he was bragging about how good of a racing driver he was....but his GPLRank was......some number?? it make no sense to me (-2 I think?). I deleted that email. The other two guys started off with something of similar "disclaimers" about bragging....and managed to get to their GPLRank numbers before the end of the first paragraph. Those got deleted too. God forbid I'd end up having some "gamer" representing the professional line of BRD race controllers and cockpits.....to a real race team in their territory....if I should refer one of them to our distributor. Ain't no way that is going to happen! So, in closing....let me repeat this to all of you who enjoy hot-lapping....and have fun with your GPLRank. I totally defend your right to those activities and I wouldn't do anything to stop you from doing them...and enjoying them. I am asking you to do me the favor of stop referring to those things as "racing" or "race driving"....at least in all the public forums of the sim racing community. I don't care what you do in private email...or in "whisper chat"....for that matter. Here's a list of people I've either had business discussions with, and/or have had in one of our simulators (Pabst-Racing simulators) or raced with/against over the Internet in a racing simulator (and then talked some business)...over the last two years. Many of these people have actually been in my home. They are all from real-world racing and they are all interested in what all this sim racing stuff is about these days! They are: Ken Ude (Bell Helmets investor/owner), Brad Pierce (Pierce Motorsports, ACRL 2000 Season Driver Champion - City of Las Vegas), Kris Mellon (M & R Motorsports - engineered about 30 individual 24-Hours Of Daytona-Rolex race finishers and 6 winning cars over the last 25 years), Don Panoz (Panoz Motorsports - owner/promoter ALMS), Tom Seabolt (Ops Manager, Grand American Series, former team manager of Holbert Racing), Andy Evans (former owner of IMSA, former owner of ALMS, owner of 7 IRL Indy500 qualifiers in 1997, personal friend of Bill Gates), Jacques Coutre' (Operations Manager/owner, Jim Russell Racing Schools), John Zudell (Director of Track Developments, SMI Corp), Humpy Wheeler (President, SMI Corp), Tony Sakkis (writer, "Racer Magazine"), Ron Huber (Bell Helmets investor/owner, Winston West driver), Rob Weston (Director of Marketing, Jim Russell Racing Schools), JD Kramer (WoO driver/team owner), David Grace (Director, Rockingham Motor Speedway - Rockingham, England)...and the following drivers: Dave McEntee (ALMS driver), Mika Hakinnen (F1 driver, McLaren), Alan McNish (ALMS driver, F1 test driver), Randy Pobst (ALMS driver), Scott Sharp (IRL driver), Ward Burton (Winston Cup driver), Steve Park (Winston Cup driver), Jeff Gordon (Winston Cup driver), Bobby Labonte (Winston Cup driver), Dale Earnhardt, Jr. (Winston Cup driver), Robby Gordon (IRL/Winston Cup driver). This list is by no means a complete list of everyone we've talked to or had business discussions with from real-world racing...and its not in any order because I just typed it off the top of my head (apologies to anyone who's name I misspelled for that reason). I would love it someday if I could let any one on that list sit next to me while I entered a VROC GPL race....and chat with the drivers in VROC. But, I can't do that today. God forbid...any of these people would know how to access this r.a.s. newsgroup.....it wouldn't take but a few posts like those below ("GPL and not left-foot braking..." and others)...and I'd be laughed all the way back to Missouri by these folks. The entire sim racing community would lose if that happened. So, please....could you guys "hot-lap" all you want...but just stop talking about it as if it was racing? Please? Regards, Tom Pabst

In article <Eopf7.11334$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > .....So I'm going to try to keep this as short as I can (and it will > probably still be too long). Sorry. > > snip... > While I agree with you about hot-lapping not proving anything, I think that if that's the way someone wants to treat GPL, then, who am I to say that's wrong for them. However, I think that a true measure of one's skill is not trying to get the fastest single lap, but how he/she races against other [human] opponents. Maybe what we need is something akin to the N4 community's racereaper, but for GPL. Racereaper accepts race results and puts them into a database in order to acrue statistical information. It would be up to the server owner to submit these results to the reaper server, but then EVERYBODY could see how they stack up against everyone else in a more authentic racing situation. I'm actually quite surprised that VROC doesn't already do this since it's a simple matter to harvest race results from servers and create a statistical database. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Thom, what exactly constitutes real life racing. This is my real life and when i'm sitting behind my computer racing it appears to be real competition. I've raced in real life and raced in simulations and the only real difference I see is that I can't get injured and it costs alot less. The competition is alot stiffer than it was in real life also. I guess I don't quite understand your idea of it not being real simply because it is on a computer. Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Sasf7.114720$[email hidden]... Now a response: Sorry Tom this time I really *don't agree* with your comments! This is "rec.autos.simulators" and in many of the "sim-games" it will state, Qualify, PB, Racing, and much more! Of course this *isnt* "real life" racing and anyone that thinks this is, are diluted! So no matter what word or words that are used here it still *is* and always will be "rec.autos.simulators" here. Bottom line: to me Tom, Your taking words & dissecting them when they do not need to be! This newsgroup is just that a newsgroup for 'rec.sim'ers' if you will no more, no less. -Thom_j. "Tom Pabst" wrote: | So, please....could you guys "hot-lap" all you want...but just stop talking

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| about it as if it was racing? Please? | | Regards, | | Tom Pabst | |

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"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Eopf7.11334$[email hidden]... > .....So I'm going to try to keep this as short as I can (and it will > probably still be too long). Sorry. > > My reasons for making this post are based on my love of racing (real and > simulated) and a desire to see simulated racing become respected as a form----cut for room--- I agree that equating Fast lap times with "Racing" is not the way to go. But at the same time, Sim Racing isn't a Automobile Racing Sport either. It equates the same way that cockroach racing does to AutoRacing (from all the prison movies and the WWII prison movies). My opinion is that Sim racing is it's own beast in the Sports world just as those cockroach racing things are. They relate only because they are in the same category, "Sport/Competition". Jan V. pointed out something that is very interesting... What would it take to make Sim Racing a SPORT that the general public would take interest in it? (out side of the "gaming" attitude that many SimRacers have) What would it take to attract Sponsorships for SimRacers and/or leagues? I read something just recently where ESPN broadcasted a Dungeons and Dragons type of card game and the winner made one hell of a lot of money. if a card game can generate sponsorship money and generate media coverage, what would it take to do the same with SimRacing? just an interesting question to ponder. Michael Barlow

Tom, You have way too much time on your hands. :-) Thank you for referring to my old web site. Unfortunately it has died a natural death but my claim to fame is that we used Don Scurlock's Sub Zero BEFORE GPLRank hit the scenes !! :-) I'm not even sure what your point was but to race is just to compete, whether against a live opponent, a personal best or AI. I quote ... race2 (rs) n. Sports. A competition of speed, as in running or riding. So what is the big deal ??? Many of my customers are 'real' racers who buy my wheel and pedals for both fun and competition. Some of the 'real' racers are fast in sim racing. Some are not. I have customers who have never driven a real car in racing spec and have excellent simulated race craft. Some of these guys would probably be good drivers of real race cars. Others may not. I'm a bit lost as to your point. I think you are trying to differentiate racing simulations from racing games !! When you speak of 'wreckers', you are speaking of the hated foe of the serious sim racer. These guys do not even belong in this newsgroup. So when we speak of sims, as in, rec.autos.simulators, we should in fact be referring to those racing activities where drivers play by rules and ettiquette and fair play. In all the GPL and NASCAR 4 competitions I have been involved with, our drivers are serious and parallels are easily drawn between them and there 'real' racing counterparts. So I say again. What is the big deal ??? You can't make people act a certain way. You can only guide. I do however hope that one day our simulated racing activities will hit the heights of being a spectator sport as well as something anyone can participate in as well as providing accolades for those skilled enough to reach the highest levels of their chosen sim. Rob Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Eopf7.11334$[email hidden]...

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> .....So I'm going to try to keep this as short as I can (and it will > probably still be too long). Sorry. > > My reasons for making this post are based on my love of racing (real and > simulated) and a desire to see simulated racing become respected as a form > of racing where the skills of the sim driver approach, if not equal, the > skills of the real-world driver. I believe I won't get too much argument > that an enormous amount of good can come to the simulated racing

community,

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> its members (drivers), its software developers both individual and > corporate, same for the hardware developers and manufacturers, > leagues/series administrators...and so forth, if the real-world racing > community embraced the simulated racing community with something on the > order of equal stature and respect. Its no secret that I have spent the > better part of the last five years (full-time for the last three years) > trying to do my part to bridge the gap between sim racing and real racing. > So I'm not going to go into all the supporting reasons why I think we'd > benefit by being respected as racing drivers....by real-world racing

drivers > and their "community"....I kind of figure that's a given! > > I also want to state without any doubt, I totally defend the right of any > member of this community to choose to enjoy sim racing however they wishto > do so. If that means they want to treat this activity as a leisure-time, > fun, game-playing activity.....that is 100% their right to do so. That > includes the so called "wreckers" even! I would defend their right towreck > other drivers in a race with them....if that's their idea of "fun" theyare > entitled to it. They are just not entitled to wreck other drivers whodon't

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> share their sense of fun. As long as the "wreckers" all race together and > not with other more serious-minded sim drivers/participants....that's Okay > with me! > > So, for sake of simplicity......I would like to divide all the members of > this community into two general groups: Serious sim racing drivers and > game-playing sim racing drivers. Notice, I did not say "two equal > groups".......I have no idea how many members of this community, if asked

to > place themselves in one group or the other.....would be in each group. We > could say, "50/50"....but it really doesn't matter to me....it has nothing > to do with what "point" I'd like to make. Let's say, there's asubstantial > number of people in both groups....together they make up the sim racing > community I'm referring to in this post. > > So....to the point I would like to make: When someone who is engaging inan > activity of sim racing that is clearly "game playing" (like wrecking cars > instead of racing against cars)......tries to make that out to be serious > race car driving......sim race car driving to be exact.......then I amgoing > to stand up and shout "NO." Why? > > Because I'm trying to get real-racing people to look upon the activitiesof > the "serious sim drivers" in this community with some respect.....respect > because they have the same or close to the same skills as real race car > drivers. I know that, but at this point, they don't know that! And, I > can't do that if a vocal minority of "game players" in this onlinecommunity > keeps calling what they are doing "race driving".....it discreditseveryone

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> in the sim racing community when that happens. Or, should I say, it > discredits them as far as the real-world racing community is concerned. > And, that is the opposite of what I think....as do many others in this > community....would be good for sim racing. > > I'm not talking about the "wreckers"....am I. No. They are a small > minority....true. But they are not very vocal. > > I am talking about the GPL community. Not all of its members of > course......but a far too large number of them.....and a way to large

vocal > number of them. I'm also talking about a few in the N4 community.....but > its a relatively small number.....in my opinion at least. > > So, to many of you.....it might seem as if I'm attacking the GPL simracing > community.....that often referred to group of "elite" sim racers (a term > I've heard too much of lately...makes me want to throw up > sometimes).......and that's why I figured this was not going to bepopular.

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> > Well, I'm not attacking anyone. > > But I am going to ask the GPL community, some (but not all)....of its > members....to do me, and anyone else in this community that would like to > see sim racing some day become a full-fledged e-sport form of racing....a > very big favor! I don't know for sure how many others there are among you > that would like to see sim racing become a respected form of racing......I > know I can name a couple hundred.....and that's enough to ask this favor,

I > think? > > Here's the favor: Please stop referring to, in public places (like this > newsgroup, race chat rooms, VROC, etc.)....referring to "hot-lapping," or > the GPLRank - (Hot-lapping scoreboard).....as racing, race car driving or > having anything to do with racing skills. I'm not asking you to stopdoing

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> it. I'm not asking you to stop liking to do it even! I am asking you to > stop calling it "racing".....because it isn't. And, when members of the > real-world racing community see you doing this.....you discredit everyone > who is a serious sim driver in this community....and would like to bridge > the gap between themselves and the real-world race drivers. I don't think > this is an unfair "favor" to ask of you. > > I would like to make a few "points" in support of my request: > > 1. In case there is any doubt that this "game" activity of hot-lapping is > being referred to by its participants as "racing"....here's a direct quote > off a web page displaying the GPLRank list: **When players reach the

magic

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> sub zero score, they would have reached a milestone putting them in a > category of excellence in driving. A point we all strive for.** That is a > direct "cut and paste" copy from the following website: > http://www.technobyte.com.au/Advantage1/GPL/subzero.html > > 2. Real world racing does not engage in any activity that even resembles > "hot-lapping" or keeps any records or "lists" that would resemble the > GPLRank system list of drivers. Nobody in real-world racing could afford

to

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> crash their cars....what....several hundred times (some of you say several > thousand times).....in order to pull off some totally lucky "flyer lap" > ...and then post it somewhere so they can be thought of as an "excellent > race driver." Of course, nobody in real-world racing would live through > such an activity, either. > > 3. The closest thing I can attribute in real-world racing to something

that

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> maybe some of the "hot-lappers" have confused to be similar to what they > do.....and call it racing......is maybe "qualifying" or....."fastest race > lap"......or maybe even "track record holder." But, let's be clear about > this. No race driver I know of, made it to the "hall of fame" of public > opinion (or the real one) in racing because they had a lot of > races.....where they had the "fastest lap" in that race. They don't keep > that score in real-world racing. I don't think anyone made it for having > the most "track records" either. I know they don't put you in the hall of > fame for having been on the most poles.....heck, no one can even remember > who the pole sitter was....come Monday morning...usually (unless of course > you also win the race on Sunday). The only thing they put you in the

"hall > of fame" for....is winning races....winning championships (based on > winning/finishing position...in races). > > 4. I spent an hour.....maybe it should have been longer.....but Icouldn't > find a single GPL related website that listed all the GPL drivers inranking > of the number of races they've won. Or, the number of podium finishes > they've had. I have no idea who the good race car drivers are inGPL....or > what they do or where they race....and certainly not how they rank amongst > themselves. I do know however, who all the best "game playinghot-lappers" > are. That took me just a minute or two to find. Too bad, because no onein

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> real racing cares about that....I know I certainly don't. It might be > fun....but its not about racing. > > 5. In real-world racing.....there's a sub-amateur form of driving called > "autocross".....and even a professional form of it in the USA, called "Pro > Solo II" sanctioned by the SCCA. Its quite a fun activity....I've done it > several times and its exciting and challenging...and not easy to beat the > guys who do nothing else but autocrossing. For those of you that don't

know > what this is.....its racing against a clock....solo....through usually a > parking lot full of "gates" marked out by yellow or orange cones. The car > (usually they are ranked in classes) and driver who traverse the conedgates > in the shortest time.....and don't knock any cones over (they penalize you > for knocking over cones).....is declared the winner of the autocrossevent. > They have second and third places too. Sometimes, if your autocross club > has a lot of members, they can afford to give you little trophies orplaques > if you come in first, second or third. I don't think anyone in real-world > racing would confuse autocrossing with racing.....or autocross driverswith > race car drivers....although many autocross drivers have moved up toamateur > SCCA racing and then gone on to full professional racing as well. > Autocrossing would actually be a level or two above "hot-lapping"...ifthey > did hot-lapping in the real world.....because in autocrossing, you can'tcut > the corners off....go over the curbs...or go off into thegrass.....because

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> you'd knock over a cone and be penalized a second for doing that. > Autocrossing would be a lot harder than hot-lapping...but they don't have > hot-lapping so they don't think of it that way. > > 6. I have a lot of books about racing, race car driving, skills of > racing....and so forth. I looked through all of them. I couldn't find > anything in them about hot-lapping....although I could find a lot of > references to how stupid it would be to attempt to run the fastest lap > possible....when you were racing. That was even frowned upon during a > qualifying run......nobody thought running a "flyer lap"....with all the > risks that it had to go with it.....was worth winning a pole position > for...no one would even remember by Monday morning anyway. I couldn't

find > a single driver ever having been given even a little trophy or aplaque..... > for holding the track record at any race track...anywhere in the world -at > any level of racing! At least, they do give those to autocross winnersfor > being fast on parking lots! > > 7. Those same books had lots of lists of the attributes and skills that > winning race car drivers possess. Here's some of them: > ***Winning Racing Skills*** > a. The ability to help create a race car setup that's the bestfor > the conditions of the race. > b. The ability to achieve a higher number of consistent fast laps > than his/her competitors over the course of the entire race length. > c. The ability to stay focused and concentrate on each turn ofeach

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> lap.... lap after lap after lap, through the entire race without > breech of his/her concentration, or lapses in judgment. > d. The ability to spend the least attention on driving "fast" > during a race, and the most attention on tactics and strategy. > e. The ability to have mechanical empathy - manages the vehicle > platform better than his/her competitors in the same race. [One > thousand crashes per completed "hot-lap" is not having mechanical

empathy!]

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> f. The ability to expend the least amount of physical energy > during a race...a relaxed driver in a calm mental state expends less > energy, has improved endurance, concentration and the ability to > continuously determine priorities and stay focused. > > I could go on with additions to this basic list, which came from the book > "The Art Of Racing", co-authored by Don Alexander and Mark Martin. But

this > was the best example I had of a concise list of "winning race driving > skills"......it was short and to the point. Please note that"hot-lapping" > is not on this list....nor was it on any list of any of the books I looked > at tonight. I doubt it would appear on any list anywhere....about race > driving skills...at least! Kind of makes that sentence above on theGPLRank

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> website.....look pretty stupid doesn't it? Scroll back up and read it > again......now that you've read this far.....see what I mean? > > 8. Earlier this week, I had a chance to jump onto VROC one afternoon. I > didn't have time to race....because just got GPL setup on my "other race > box" a couple weeks back anyway...I'd be pretty non-competitive without > having run GPL for about 18 months or so. But, I like talking racing with > many of the VROC drivers (except when they start talking about their > GPLRank...or PB's at such and such a track.......usually I get bored and > sign off...or go race for a while or something)....and I am looking for

some > people who might want to be distributors of the BRD product line in acouple > parts of the country where we need some help. It turns out there was a > couple guys down in LA who were interested and one back east.....all open > territories for us at the moment. I asked them to send me an email so I > could get their email address easily and send them some info. Since I > didn't know them previously, I also asked them to tell me a little about > their sim racing experience....keeping it short and simple. This wasn'tan

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> employment application for an F1 race team as a driver! ....lol... All > three sent me an email.....right away (within minutes)...it was great. > However, the first one I read....started out with a disclaimer about not > wanting to look like he was bragging about how good of a racing driver he > was....but his GPLRank was......some number?? it make no sense to me (-2 I > think?). I deleted that email. The other two guys started off with > something of similar "disclaimers" about bragging....and managed to get to > their GPLRank numbers before the end of the first paragraph. Those got > deleted too. God forbid I'd end up having some "gamer" representing the > professional line of BRD race controllers and cockpits.....to a real race > team in their territory....if I should refer one of them to our

distributor. > Ain't no way that is going to happen! > > So, in closing....let me repeat this to all of you who enjoy > hot-lapping....and have fun with your GPLRank. I totally defend yourright > to those activities and I wouldn't do anything to stop you from doing > them...and enjoying them. I am asking you to do me the favor of stop > referring to those things as "racing" or "race driving"....at least in all > the public forums of the sim racing community. I don't care what you doin

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> private email...or in "whisper chat"....for that matter. > > Here's a list of people I've either had business discussions with, and/or > have had in one of our simulators (Pabst-Racing simulators) or raced > with/against over the Internet in a racing simulator (and then talked some > business)...over the last two years. Many of these people have actually > been in my home. They are all from real-world racing and they are all > interested in what all this sim racing stuff is about these days! They

are: > > Ken Ude (Bell Helmets investor/owner), Brad Pierce (Pierce Motorsports,ACRL > 2000 Season Driver Champion - City of Las Vegas), Kris Mellon (M & R > Motorsports - engineered about 30 individual 24-Hours Of Daytona-Rolexrace > finishers and 6 winning cars over the last 25 years), Don Panoz (Panoz > Motorsports - owner/promoter ALMS), Tom Seabolt (Ops Manager, GrandAmerican > Series, former team manager of Holbert Racing), Andy Evans (former ownerof > IMSA, former owner of ALMS, owner of 7 IRL Indy500 qualifiers in 1997, > personal friend of Bill Gates), Jacques Coutre' (Operations Manager/owner, > Jim Russell Racing Schools), John Zudell (Director of Track Developments, > SMI Corp), Humpy Wheeler (President, SMI Corp), Tony Sakkis (writer,"Racer > Magazine"), Ron Huber (Bell Helmets investor/owner, Winston West driver), > Rob Weston (Director of Marketing, Jim Russell Racing Schools), JD Kramer > (WoO driver/team owner), David Grace (Director, Rockingham MotorSpeedway - > Rockingham, England)...and the following drivers: Dave McEntee (ALMS > driver), Mika Hakinnen (F1 driver, McLaren), Alan McNish (ALMS driver, F1 > test driver), Randy Pobst (ALMS driver), Scott Sharp (IRL driver), Ward > Burton (Winston Cup driver), Steve Park (Winston Cup driver), Jeff Gordon > (Winston Cup driver), Bobby Labonte (Winston Cup driver), Dale Earnhardt, > Jr. (Winston Cup driver), Robby Gordon (IRL/Winston Cup driver). Thislist > is by no means a complete list of everyone we've talked to or had business > discussions with from real-world racing...and its not in any order becauseI > just typed it off the top of my head (apologies to anyone who's name I > misspelled for that reason). > > I would love it someday if I could let any one on that list sit next to me > while I entered a VROC GPL race....and chat with the drivers in VROC.But, > I can't do that today. God forbid...any of these people would know how to > access this r.a.s. newsgroup.....it wouldn't take but a few posts likethose > below ("GPL and not left-foot braking..." and others)...and I'd be laughed > all the way back to Missouri by these folks. The entire sim racing > community would lose if that happened. > > So, please....could you guys "hot-lap" all you want...but just stoptalking

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> about it as if it was racing? Please? > > Regards, > > Tom Pabst > >

"Rob Swindells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Douglas Ellison wrote: > > > > The Sim-Racing world and the Real-Racing world are VERY VERY different > > things - and any reasonable individual can see that - so why one should > > restrict the way it talks to become more accesable to the other isbeyond > > me. > > > Not really... if you're online with a wheel/pedals and your in a racing > situation then the only thing that seperates it from real racing is the > wind in your face and risk of injury if you crash! Sorry - completely inaccurate. I've 'raced' (to satisfy Tom P I'd better call it 'Testing') FF1600 and it's NOTHING, repeat NOTHING like Sims. You 'feel' the car thru corners, you sense forces, you hear the car reacting with slight slides and noises and creaks and rumbles. NONE Of that is replicated in Sim racing - and frankly - is unlikely to be in the forseable future. > > I recently read an interview with Michael Schumacher who mentioned thatany > > racing game he had tried was so far from reality as to be of no actualuse > > for a racing driver > > > What was it? F197 on the playstation? I doubt he has tried anything of > the calibre of GPL or N4. Anyway, I've heard conflicting reports of what > he has actually said anyway! Plus, MS is a wanker. Plus he's 4 times World Champion elect and arguably the greatest living racing driver. Doug

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > is simulated. I also do consider simracing amateur motorsport. I have no > trouble talking about it as if it were. In fact the reverse is true, Ihave > trouble discussing it in the same way I do Quake or UT. The idea that FPS shooters are not "as serious" as simracing is an opinion that crops up fairly often on r.a.s. It's also IMO a narrow-minded and daft way of thinking. The CPL ( http://www.thecpl.com ) has regularly been organising QuakeWorld, Quake3 and Counterstrike tournaments with cash prizes in excess of $100,000 for three or four years now. Participants (individuals and/or teams depending on the event) are flown in to the competition LAN (usually in Texas) from around the world at the expense of the CPL, which is funded by sponsors (currently including Intel, Logitech, MS, Madcatz, Thrustmaster, and more). Events are covered not only by cascading broadcast servers but also by TV - we've even had coverage here in England, a one hour program in two parts covering a CPL tournament was shown on Channel4 and repeated on E4 a couple of months back. It seems to me that Tom's dream is for sim racing, sorry, sim "driving", to be given as much coverage as Q3, CS etc are getting. That's a nice dream but I'm not convinced it will ever happen. Just in the UK, there are thousands of members of Quake3 and Counterstrike clans playing regularly in organised leagues online, yep I know there are sim racing leagues too (I'm in one myself) but the number of people involved is far fewer. Without the public support, why would the sponsors care? Anyway, that's it from me, supposed to be moving house today and I've got to go get some packing done :0) Cheers Jim PS: As some of you may know there's an ENORMOUS amount of crap / abusive / immature Quake players online. There's way more pricks playing Quake than there are in sim racing (the wreckers etc). That's partly cos there's way more Quakers than racers but also because it appeals to a different age group. Despite these people, FPS games have still managed to rake in the sponsor cash and organise massive international tournaments - my point is that Tom you don't need to set forth on a mission to convert all of us here in r.a.s to "the one true way". If the elite sim racers want to be involved in international competition, fine, go talk to them, make sure they respect themselves and each other, and you'll be fine. But please don't lecture me on how I should behave when I'm racing online, it's a hobby that I enjoy, not a professional sport.

In article <Hsqf7.11357$[email hidden]>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Just to be clear....everyone has PB's at every track....I do too...and I >pretty much know what they are in my head. What I was objecting to....was >an organized way of comparing my PB's to your PB's....and calling that >"racing"....or saying one of us has better "racing skills" over the >other...based on our PB's. You know? I don't need to compare myself to you >that way anyway. We are both race drivers...what we do is "compare our >racing skills"...by racing each other in direct competition! That's what >racing is! If I race you in 8 races....and I win 3 and you win 5 of >them.....well, over those 8 races....clearly you were the better driver! >Who cares what our individual fastest lap was? I don't...do you?

But someone who has a PB 3 seconds faster than mine could take it easier in a race, and STILL be faster than my PB. Therefore, he's still a better driver than me. And in the real world, people DO keep track of # of pole positions - it's part of driver stats. Poles, wins, top-10's etc. Formula 1 keeps track of fastest lap stats. I've seen comparisons on several broadcasts. It might not have the same significance/weight as people associate with GPLRank, but to say it doesn't exist at all is false. I agree that it would be nice to see stats of som drivers for # of wins, top-10's and all that. But, that would have to be up to Leagues to publish their stats, or for dedicated server owners to do it. If I ever set up my servers again for constant operation, I may do it, but I see it being a lot of work. We'll see. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<Hsqf7.11357$[email hidden]>... > Thanks Rob.....your post will probably be among the few....as soon as Europe > wakes up and reads that post. I didn't write it to be "popular"....I wrote > it because I think it was the right thing to do for sim racing, for this sim > racing community. > > I think the point is simply to "accelerate" the RESPECT that the SERIOUS sim racers want from the rest of the racing world......I'm sure if you put some of the "Aliens" behind the wheel of a REAL race car and gave them some time to become proficient that they would become equally as good in time. I'm sure in time as even more realistic sims are created(WSC?), that there will be an increased influx of real world drivers who will use them as practice to keep their reflexes tuned (and to have some fun!!). I don't believe sim-racing will EVER be on par with real racing simply because of the amout of balls it takes to go REALLY fast in real racing!!! Mabe if there was a sim that would damage your Computer the same amount as the wreck you were in.........Hmmmmm.....that would get the heart and sweat glands pumpin'!!!! Just THINK how smooth the starts would be then!!And.........there would be NOOOO sign of wreckers ANYWHERE!!! LOL Organization is the clear way to respect in my opinion. Instead of 30 leagues....how about 1 league. Then there would be some fair comparison on RACING skill. I often get into a race with several drivers that are clearly faster than me in practice but, they are nowhere to be found at the end of the race. It doesn't take much skill to disconnect only because you were trying to HOTLAP during a race to post the fastest lap time!! GPL(VROC) needs a more advanced program that will keep track of more pertinant information that shows RACING skills (much like N4 does but even more advanced). How about a rankings system that kept your average lap times for each track but ONLY during races?? Maybe it could show percentages for laps led, how many times you retired or percent of races you completed etc. Look at the amout of stats that other online communities keep (Combat Flight Sims, Golf, etc.) Kajun_II (Guy DiGiovanni)

Tom, Autocrossing and hotlapping and a race qualifying run are very similar. In all three you are looking to extract the maximum for car and driver for one lap. In qualifying run, or hotlapping tho you have actaully seen the course in a car for more then 2 laps. Autocrossing at a Divisional and National level you get three chances to master the given course. You have never put a lap on the course before you first timed run. In all actaullity since in a Qualifying run or hotlapping you have seen the course many times from the drivers seat makes it easier to do that then autocrossing. The Solo II driver must put the car at its limit and hold it there from the start to the finish of his lap. all of this without ever driving the course before. In that respect its harder then road racing or oval racing. Look at how a guy in NASCAR can come back rom being two laps down to win a race. Duff a corner in road racing or oval racing and make it up the next lap. Duff a corner in Solo II and well you went from being first to being last. I have seen Solo II events where a class winner and second place in the same class was less the 0.003 second. For insurance reason SCCA Solo II and SCCA Pro Solo are defined as prescion driving event. They will not be considered racing event due to inurance restrictions. But even with that said I will say the Top Drivers in Solo II do very very well in any other form of Motorsports. Jeff Altenberg moved up from SCCA Solo II to take a SCCA Touring 1 championship and now drives in SCCA Trans Am. Randy Probst a current ALMS series driver used to run SCCA Solo II. Even TC Kline still runs Solo II and has picked up several drivers for his team from Solo II. Many consider Autocrossing like you do something fun to spend a Sunday doing, but also guys like TC Kline look at autocrossing as a place to find future road racing drivers.. Randy Probst, Shauna Marinus, Jeff Altenberg, Scottie White all autocrossed before going on to professional road racing. Now for Sim Racing. I use Sim Racing to help with a few bad habits I have when I autocross. One is getting excited out on course. When Playing GPL or Nascar 4 online you have plenty of situations where you need to keep your head and stay relaxed. I found before I started sim racing I would come off the autocross course with my heart pounding and if I had a moment my hands would even shake. My breathing was hard. Now since I have been messing about with sims well I have gotten rid of those bad habits and stay calm on the solo II course, even is something unexpected happens, like a spin at 70 + mph. My preformance in autocrossing is improved immensely since I started playing with games. I will say playing sims will not replace even autocrossing for me. There is no way to replace getting in the car and actaully autocrossing or racing. Its more then just wind in the face or the chance of a real accident. I did learn how to effectivly left foot brake on sims before actaully doing it in my Solo II car so I guess that is one thing that does translate right over. Many have said in the past and well it does have merit. If Autocrossing was easier it would be called road racing. Well to the hotlapping issue. I think the reason its mentioned so much is its an easy way to discuss the level at which you are compared to others. With so many different leagues for any game it can be tough to determine who is best thru race wins only. Its completely different from Real Racing since you have reasonably defined levels in racing Oval Racing currently has the best defined levels from the Cruiser class dirt cars all the way up to Winston Cup NASCAR stock cars. in games or sims we do not have that currently and that is where hotlapping becomes the end level. Now if someone where to build a league or a series as it may that would define each driver level and require drivers to have. If we had that for lets say one game it would be something that would take car of a lot of these hotlapping issues. If you did it in NASCAR 4 it would be a bit easier. Wtih Papy's rating system you could grade drivers into groups. If you have a 3 or under rating you run this class in a given league. Bigger rating number the higher the class you run in. That would take care of the issue for NASCAR 4 and maybe give some respectablity to playing sims. By the way I am a 3 on road courses, 0 on short tracks( never ran one online yet) a 2 on Speedways and a 3 on Superspeedways. Dave Autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder.

"Jim Seamus" wrote... > <snip> > The idea that FPS shooters are not "as serious" as simracing is an opinion > that crops up fairly often on r.a.s. <sigh> He were go again... we'd be better off naming this group rec.autos.misinterpretations or rec.autos.sweeping_generalisations. Did I say I take FPS's less seriously as an entertainment form in general than simracing? -Did you think I didn't know they've got sponsored events and pro players? No, I said I find it hard to talk in the same way about simracing as I do about FPS's. When a couple of buddies and myself decide to meet online to repeatedly blow the crap out of eachother, I say "I'm playing multiplayer HalfLife later", whereas for scheduled simracing events I say: "I'm racing later". Clear? Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

OK.. .now that was pretty damn funny! =) Scott PA-Scott http://www.PowerSimsMag.com "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:y5qf7.11350$[email hidden]... > And Francois..... > > The next time you equate me to Don Wilshe.....I will be coming up toCanada > to pay a visit to you.....or sending Guido up to see you instead of me!You

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> won't like Guido as much as me. He does really bad things to arms and > legs......lol.... Just kidding you.....(but not about the thing with Don > Wilshe.....Oh, please Francois...that was a really low blow). > > Tom > > >

Speaking of which... you are in Albany aren't you?!? ;) Scott PA-Scott http://www.PowerSimsMag.com "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:gItf7.300846$[email hidden]... Very good post Tom, also very long and while i didn't read the whole thing for fear I would lose a whole day I agree with you on alot of points. Ask anyone that attends a LikeReal lan event if they take it seriously. You can bet that a good majority of us take it very seriously. Ask anyone that runs a league what they think the potential is. Last year at a LAN event in Indy we had a whole lounge full of people that probably knew nothing about simracing with their eyes glued to the big screens in the rear of the sports bar/restaurant. They were cheering and had no idea it wasn't real. But, back to your post. Simracing will never attain the status that say a Nascar organization has unless they aquire a large spectator following. It will be a long hard road and the trek will be going long after I expire. We have come a long way over the last 6+ years and from here on in it's gets slower and tougher. There are too many variables to consider when people start taking simracing seriously, most of all would be the ability to cheat and the measures that can be taken to ensure this doesn't happen. I think for simracing the future would be dedicated gaming machines that keep the security issues to a minimum, and where all available resources are designed to focus on the tak at hand. Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Eopf7.11334$[email hidden]... .....So I'm going to try to keep this as short as I can (and it will probably still be too long). Sorry. My reasons for making this post are based on my love of racing (real and simulated) and a desire to see simulated racing become respected as a form of racing where the skills of the sim driver approach, if not equal, the skills of the real-world driver. I believe I won't get too much argument that an enormous amount of good can come to the simulated racing community, its members (drivers), its software developers both individual and corporate, same for the hardware developers and manufacturers, leagues/series administrators...and so forth, if the real-world racing community embraced the simulated racing community with something on the order of equal stature and respect. Its no secret that I have spent the better part of the last five years (full-time for the last three years) trying to do my part to bridge the gap between sim racing and real racing. So I'm not going to go into all the supporting reasons why I think we'd benefit by being respected as racing drivers....by real-world racing drivers and their "community"....I kind of figure that's a given! I also want to state without any doubt, I totally defend the right of any member of this community to choose to enjoy sim racing however they wish to do so. If that means they want to treat this activity as a leisure-time, fun, game-playing activity.....that is 100% their right to do so. That includes the so called "wreckers" even! I would defend their right to wreck other drivers in a race with them....if that's their idea of "fun" they are entitled to it. They are just not entitled to wreck other drivers who don't share their sense of fun. As long as the "wreckers" all race together and not with other more serious-minded sim drivers/participants....that's Okay with me! So, for sake of simplicity......I would like to divide all the members of this community into two general groups: Serious sim racing drivers and game-playing sim racing drivers. Notice, I did not say "two equal groups".......I have no idea how many members of this community, if asked to place themselves in one group or the other.....would be in each group. We could say, "50/50"....but it really doesn't matter to me....it has nothing to do with what "point" I'd like to make. Let's say, there's a substantial number of people in both groups....together they make up the sim racing community I'm referring to in this post. So....to the point I would like to make: When someone who is engaging in an activity of sim racing that is clearly "game playing" (like wrecking cars instead of racing against cars)......tries to make that out to be serious race car driving......sim race car driving to be exact.......then I am going to stand up and shout "NO." Why? Because I'm trying to get real-racing people to look upon the activities of the "serious sim drivers" in this community with some respect.....respect because they have the same or close to the same skills as real race car drivers. I know that, but at this point, they don't know that! And, I can't do that if a vocal minority of "game players" in this online community keeps calling what they are doing "race driving".....it discredits everyone in the sim racing community when that happens. Or, should I say, it discredits them as far as the real-world racing community is concerned. And, that is the opposite of what I think....as do many others in this community....would be good for sim racing. I'm not talking about the "wreckers"....am I. No. They are a small minority....true. But they are not very vocal. I am talking about the GPL community. Not all of its members of course......but a far too large number of them.....and a way to large vocal number of them. I'm also talking about a few in the N4 community.....but its a relatively small number.....in my opinion at least. So, to many of you.....it might seem as if I'm attacking the GPL sim racing community.....that often referred to group of "elite" sim racers (a term I've heard too much of lately...makes me want to throw up sometimes).......and that's why I figured this was not going to be popular. Well, I'm not attacking anyone. But I am going to ask the GPL community, some (but not all)....of its members....to do me, and anyone else in this community that would like to see sim racing some day become a full-fledged e-sport form of racing....a very big favor! I don't know for sure how many others there are among you that would like to see sim racing become a respected form of racing......I know I can name a couple hundred.....and that's enough to ask this favor, I think? Here's the favor: Please stop referring to, in public places (like this newsgroup, race chat rooms, VROC, etc.)....referring to "hot-lapping," or the GPLRank - (Hot-lapping scoreboard).....as racing, race car driving or having anything to do with racing skills. I'm not asking you to stop doing it. I'm not asking you to stop liking to do it even! I am asking you to stop calling it "racing".....because it isn't. And, when members of the real-world racing community see you doing this.....you discredit everyone who is a serious sim driver in this community....and would like to bridge the gap between themselves and the real-world race drivers. I don't think this is an unfair "favor" to ask of you. I would like to make a few "points" in support of my request: 1. In case there is any doubt that this "game" activity of hot-lapping is being referred to by its participants as "racing"....here's a direct quote off a web page displaying the GPLRank list: **When players reach the magic sub zero score, they would have reached a milestone putting them in a category of excellence in driving. A point we all strive for.** That is a direct "cut and paste" copy from the following website: http://www.technobyte.com.au/Advantage1/GPL/subzero.html 2. Real world racing does not engage in any activity that even resembles "hot-lapping" or keeps any records or "lists" that would resemble the GPLRank system list of drivers. Nobody in real-world racing could afford to crash their cars....what....several hundred times (some of you say several thousand times).....in order to pull off some totally lucky "flyer lap" ...and then post it somewhere so they can be thought of as an "excellent race driver." Of course, nobody in real-world racing would live through such an activity, either. 3. The closest thing I can attribute in real-world racing to something that maybe some of the "hot-lappers" have confused to be similar to what they do.....and call it racing......is maybe "qualifying" or....."fastest race lap"......or maybe even "track record holder." But, let's be clear about this. No race driver I know of, made it to the "hall of fame" of public opinion (or the real one) in racing because they had a lot of races.....where they had the "fastest lap" in that race. They don't keep that score in real-world racing. I don't think anyone made it for having the most "track records" either. I know they don't put you in the hall of fame for having been on the most poles.....heck, no one can even remember who the pole sitter was....come Monday morning...usually (unless of course you also win the race on Sunday). The only thing they put you in the "hall of fame" for....is winning races....winning championships (based on winning/finishing position...in races). 4. I spent an hour.....maybe it should have been longer.....but I couldn't find a single GPL related website that listed all the GPL drivers in ranking of the number of races they've won. Or, the number of podium finishes they've had. I have no idea who the good race car drivers are in GPL....or what they do or where they race....and certainly not how they rank amongst themselves. I do know however, who all the best "game playing hot-lappers" are. That took me just a minute or two to find. Too bad, because no one in real racing cares about that....I know I certainly don't. It might be fun....but its not about racing. 5. In real-world racing.....there's a sub-amateur form of driving called "autocross".....and even a professional form of it in the USA, called "Pro Solo II" sanctioned by the SCCA. Its quite a fun activity....I've done it several times and its exciting and challenging...and not easy to beat the guys who do nothing else but autocrossing. For those of you that don't know what this is.....its racing against a clock....solo....through usually a parking lot full of "gates" marked out by yellow or orange cones. The car (usually they are ranked in classes) and driver who traverse the coned gates in the shortest time.....and don't knock any cones over (they penalize you for knocking over cones).....is declared the winner of the autocross event. They have second and third places too. Sometimes, if your autocross club has a lot of members, they can afford to give you little trophies or plaques if you come in first, second or third. I don't think anyone in real-world racing would confuse autocrossing with racing.....or autocross drivers with race car drivers....although many autocross drivers have moved up to amateur SCCA racing and then gone on to full professional racing as well. Autocrossing would actually be a level or two above "hot-lapping"...if they did hot-lapping in the real world.....because in autocrossing, you can't cut the corners off....go over the curbs...or go off into the grass.....because you'd knock over a cone and be penalized a second for doing that. Autocrossing would be a lot harder than hot-lapping...but they don't have hot-lapping so they don't think of it that way. 6. I have a lot of books about racing, race car driving, skills of racing....and so forth. I looked through all of them. I couldn't find anything in them about hot-lapping....although I could find a lot of references to how stupid it would be to attempt to run the fastest lap possible....when you were racing. That was even frowned upon during a qualifying run......nobody thought running a "flyer lap"....with all the risks that it had to go with it.....was worth winning a pole position for...no one would even remember by Monday morning anyway. I couldn't find a single driver ever having been given even a little trophy or a plaque..... for holding the track record at any race track...anywhere in the world - at any level of racing! At least, they do give those to autocross winners for being fast on parking lots! 7. Those same books had lots of lists of the attributes and skills that winning race car drivers possess. Here's some of them: ***Winning Racing Skills*** a. The ability to help create a race car setup that's the best for the conditions of the race. b. The ability to achieve a higher number of consistent fast laps than his/her competitors over the course of the entire race length. c. The ability to stay focused and concentrate on each turn of each lap.... lap after lap after lap, through the entire race without breech of his/her concentration, or lapses in judgment. d. The ability to spend the least attention on driving "fast" during a race, and the most attention on tactics and strategy. e. The ability to have mechanical empathy - manages the vehicle platform better than his/her competitors in the same race. [One thousand crashes per completed "hot-lap" is not having mechanical empathy!] f. The ability to expend the least amount of physical energy during a race...a relaxed driver in a calm mental state expends less energy, has improved endurance, concentration and the ability to continuously determine priorities and stay focused. I could go on with additions to this basic list, which came from the book "The Art Of Racing", co-authored by Don Alexander and Mark Martin. But this was the best example I had of a concise list of "winning race driving skills"......it was short and to the point. Please note that "hot-lapping" is not on this list....nor was it on any list of any of the books I looked at tonight. I doubt it would appear on any list anywhere....about race driving skills...at least! Kind of makes that sentence above on the GPLRank website.....look pretty stupid doesn't it? Scroll back up and read it again......now that you've read this far.....see what I mean? 8. Earlier this week, I had a chance to jump onto VROC one afternoon. I didn't have time to race....because just got GPL setup on my "other race box" a couple weeks back anyway...I'd be pretty non-competitive without having run GPL for about 18 months or so. But, I like talking racing with many of the VROC drivers (except when they start talking about their GPLRank...or PB's at such and such a track.......usually I get bored and sign off...or go race for a while or something)....and I am looking for some people who might want to be distributors of the BRD product line in a couple parts of the country where we need some help. It turns out there was a couple guys down in LA who were interested and one back east.....all open territories for us at the moment. I asked them to send me an email so I could get their email address easily and send them some info. Since I didn't know them previously, I also asked them to tell me a little about their sim racing experience....keeping it short and simple. This wasn't an employment application for an F1 race team as a driver! ....lol... All three sent me an email.....right away (within minutes)...it was great. However, the first one I read....started out with a disclaimer about not wanting to look like he was bragging about how good of a racing driver he was....but his GPLRank was......some number?? it make no sense to me (-2 I think?). I deleted that email. The other two guys started off with something of similar "disclaimers" about bragging....and managed to get to their GPLRank numbers before the end of the first paragraph. Those got deleted too. God forbid I'd end up having some "gamer" representing the professional line of BRD race controllers and cockpits.....to a real race team in their territory....if I should refer one of them to our distributor. Ain't no way that is going to happen! So, in closing....let me repeat this to all of you who enjoy hot-lapping....and have fun with your GPLRank. I totally defend your right to those activities and I wouldn't do anything to stop you from doing them...and enjoying them. I am asking you to do me the favor of stop referring to those things as "racing" or "race driving"....at least in all the public forums of the sim racing community. I don't care what you do in private email...or in "whisper chat"....for that matter. Here's a list of people I've either had business discussions with, and/or have had in one of our simulators (Pabst-Racing simulators) or raced with/against over the Internet in a racing simulator (and then talked some business)...over the last two years. Many of these people have actually been in my home. They are all from real-world racing and they are all interested in what all this sim racing stuff is about these days! They are: Ken Ude (Bell Helmets investor/owner), Brad Pierce (Pierce Motorsports, ACRL 2000 Season Driver Champion - City of Las Vegas), Kris Mellon (M & R Motorsports - engineered about 30 individual 24-Hours Of Daytona-Rolex race finishers and 6 winning cars over the last 25 years), Don Panoz (Panoz Motorsports - owner/promoter ALMS), Tom Seabolt (Ops Manager, Grand American Series, former team manager of Holbert Racing), Andy Evans (former owner of IMSA, former owner of ALMS, owner of 7 IRL Indy500 qualifiers in 1997, personal friend of Bill Gates), Jacques Coutre' (Operations Manager/owner, Jim Russell Racing Schools), John Zudell (Director of Track Developments, SMI Corp), Humpy Wheeler (President, SMI Corp), Tony Sakkis (writer, "Racer Magazine"), Ron Huber (Bell Helmets investor/owner, Winston West driver), Rob Weston (Director of Marketing, Jim Russell Racing Schools), JD Kramer (WoO driver/team owner), David Grace (Director, Rockingham Motor Speedway - Rockingham, England)...and the following drivers: Dave McEntee (ALMS driver), Mika Hakinnen (F1 driver, McLaren), Alan McNish (ALMS driver, F1 test driver), Randy Pobst (ALMS driver), Scott Sharp (IRL driver), Ward Burton (Winston Cup driver), Steve Park (Winston Cup driver), Jeff Gordon (Winston Cup driver), Bobby Labonte (Winston Cup driver), Dale Earnhardt, Jr. (Winston Cup driver), Robby Gordon (IRL/Winston Cup driver). This list is by no means a complete list of everyone we've talked to or had business discussions with from real-world racing...and its not in any order because I just typed it off the top of my head (apologies to anyone who's name I misspelled for that reason). I would love it someday if I could let any one on that list sit next to me while I entered a VROC GPL race....and chat with the drivers in VROC. But, I can't do that today. God forbid...any of these people would know how to access this r.a.s. newsgroup.....it wouldn't take but a few posts like those below ("GPL and not left-foot braking..." and others)...and I'd be laughed all the way back to Missouri by these folks. The entire sim racing community would lose if that happened. So, please....could you guys "hot-lap" all you want...but just stop talking about it as if it was racing? Please? Regards, Tom Pabst

Hey Mike! I have nothing to add, just wanted to say.. "HEY MIKE!" ;) Scott PA-Scott http://www.PowerSimsMag.com "Michael Barlow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:29uf7.300922$[email hidden]...

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> > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Eopf7.11334$[email hidden]... > > .....So I'm going to try to keep this as short as I can (and it will > > probably still be too long). Sorry. > > > > My reasons for making this post are based on my love of racing (real and > > simulated) and a desire to see simulated racing become respected as a

form > ----cut for room--- > > I agree that equating Fast lap times with "Racing" is not the way togo. > But at the same time, Sim Racing isn't a Automobile Racing Sport either.It > equates the same way that cockroach racing does to AutoRacing (from allthe > prison movies and the WWII prison movies). My opinion is that Sim racingis > it's own beast in the Sports world just as those cockroach racing things > are. They relate only because they are in the same category, > "Sport/Competition". > > Jan V. pointed out something that is very interesting... What wouldit > take to make Sim Racing a SPORT that the general public would takeinterest > in it? (out side of the "gaming" attitude that many SimRacers have) What > would it take to attract Sponsorships for SimRacers and/or leagues? Iread > something just recently where ESPN broadcasted a Dungeons and Dragons type > of card game and the winner made one hell of a lot of money. if a cardgame

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> can generate sponsorship money and generate media coverage, what would it > take to do the same with SimRacing? > > just an interesting question to ponder. > Michael Barlow > >

Scott, I don't usually comment on this, but did you *have* to copy Tom's entire post + Mike's html post just to ask this? Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. "Scott B. Husted" wrote... Speaking of which... you are in Albany aren't you?!? ;) <SNIP>

Yes,why? And I'll keep it short so Jan doesn't get his panties in a bunch. (-: j/k Jan Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale

Hey Scott! Long time no see :-) bummer you didn't have anything to add to the post, it would be interesting to find out what everyone thinks it would take to make SimRacing a Sport worthy of TV, or Radio, or ....et.. "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Wewf7.8639$[email hidden]...

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> Hey Mike! I have nothing to add, just wanted to say.. "HEY MIKE!" ;) > > Scott > PA-Scott > http://www.PowerSimsMag.com > > "Michael Barlow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:29uf7.300922$[email hidden]... > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:Eopf7.11334$[email hidden]... > > > .....So I'm going to try to keep this as short as I can (and it will > > > probably still be too long). Sorry. > > > > > > My reasons for making this post are based on my love of racing (real

and

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> > > simulated) and a desire to see simulated racing become respected as a > form > > ----cut for room--- > > > > I agree that equating Fast lap times with "Racing" is not the way to > go. > > But at the same time, Sim Racing isn't a Automobile Racing Sport either. > It > > equates the same way that cockroach racing does to AutoRacing (from all > the > > prison movies and the WWII prison movies). My opinion is that Sim

racing

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> is > > it's own beast in the Sports world just as those cockroach racing things > > are. They relate only because they are in the same category, > > "Sport/Competition". > > > > Jan V. pointed out something that is very interesting... What would > it > > take to make Sim Racing a SPORT that the general public would take > interest > > in it? (out side of the "gaming" attitude that many SimRacers have)

What > > would it take to attract Sponsorships for SimRacers and/or leagues? I > read > > something just recently where ESPN broadcasted a Dungeons and Dragonstype > > of card game and the winner made one hell of a lot of money. if a card > game > > can generate sponsorship money and generate media coverage, what wouldit

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> > take to do the same with SimRacing? > > > > just an interesting question to ponder. > > Michael Barlow > > > > > >

Douglas Ellison wrote:

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> Sorry - completely inaccurate. I've 'raced' (to satisfy Tom P I'd better > call it 'Testing') FF1600 and it's NOTHING, repeat NOTHING like Sims. You > 'feel' the car thru corners, you sense forces, you hear the car reacting > with slight slides and noises and creaks and rumbles. NONE Of that is > replicated in Sim racing - and frankly - is unlikely to be in the forseable > future. >

I've raced FFord Zetec 1800 at Brands Hatch and FFord 1600 at Silverstone... Racing is racing, whether it's F1, NASCAR, FFord, Sim Racing.. you're still tring to control a high powered car and drive it faster to beat the other guy, imo. Sure doing a lap in a FFord and a lap in GPL is an altogether different kettle of fish. But when it's you and him braking for the last corner on the last lap... it's RACING in any shape or form. I think that the skill that requires in sim racing should be respected. > Plus he's 4 times World Champion elect and arguably the greatest living > racing driver. Doesn't mean he can pass judgement on sim racing based on a few laps of a Playstation GAME... Rob

Yeah! I 2nd that!! Mike, You know damn right! Mike Grandy wrote:

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> Thom, what exactly constitutes real life racing. This is my real life > and when i'm sitting behind my computer racing it appears to be real > competition. I've raced in real life and raced in simulations and the > only real difference I see is that I can't get injured and it costs alot > less. The competition is alot stiffer than it was in real life also. I > guess I don't quite understand your idea of it not being real simply > because it is on a computer. > > > > > > Mike Grandy > > Proud Member of Precision Racing <http://www.precision-racing.com> > Internet Race Team > > 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale <http://www.daleearnhardt.net>

I've been a sim racer since the original Indy 500 was released in the late 80's and I have been enthralled ever since. After "500" I invested in World Circuit, and it's graphics and physics were unlike anything I could have imagined. Then on to Nascar and ICR, Racer Heaven! My brother Timothy and I would race for hours in the multi-player mode. Dicing back and forth at Talladega and Milwaukee until, lo' and behold, word came that an online beta service was coming into play. NIRVANA! It was named the Hawaii Network and was brought to us by the people at Papyrus. I first read about it in the back of the aftermarket Nascar sim guide, and it was a dream come true. We scoured the net until we found the software and immediately signed up. It was explained that we would have to wait for an Email from Papy to log on. A few days passed and nothing happened. Finally on a bright and cheery Saturday morning I logged on. Nope, I had not received my Email, but I figured the worst that could happen would be a disconnect (which never came.) I went into the driver's room and it was as if I had been transported to a private club under the stands of some faraway racetrack. Guys were discussing their setups and other drivers, who they could draft with and who to stay away from. The races that were available were at the top of the screen like a bookie's tote board. It was orgasmic. I selected a race and pressed enter. The screen burped and flashed… and then there I was, sitting in the pits at Dega'! My hands were sweating on my Thrustmaster wheel and as silly as it seems, my breathing was a little shallow and my heart was pounding out a staccato rhythm. As I stared out over the dash, the car in front of me moved out and down pit road! On the track, at the same time, two cars barreled by me, nose to tail, engines redlined as they screamed their way across the start finish line. Two more cars rumbled by me on pit road. Four more in quick succession ripped past on the track. And each one of them a real person! It was mind-boggling! I cautiously engaged first gear and made my way down pit road as cars continued to whiz by on the banked tarmac to my right. Up through second, then third as I stayed low on the course through turn one and finally into fourth and up into the racing groove as the stands flashed by on the back straight. After a few laps of white knuckled practice the screen switched to qualifying mode. I again moved down pit road and out onto the track. Three laps later I had turned in a best speed of just over 190-mph. Not so good, but not so bad for my first time. As I recall, I was in the back of the field. No pace lap. No cautions. Damage on. The green flagged dropped and I tromped down on the accelerator. My car sprang forward and I kept in line, following the car in front of me. Suddenly the car behind me jumped unexpectedly to my left and began to pass me. I could hear him shift and I knew he had geared first, second and third very steep so that he could get a good jump. He went by me below the white line as we turned into turn one. I lifted and let him in; he was inches in front of me. Then he shifted to fourth and of course the car fell flat on its face. I lifted hard as his car stopped accelerating and promptly got booted up the rear end. Cars started spinning and I was immediately sitting in the middle of a classic sim melee. When the dust had settled, my hood was scrunched up and the car wouldn't turn. The chat board went crazy with people screaming at each other. "Oh for Christ's sake…" "Idiots!" "Again?" "Sorry." "Who is 17?" "It wasn't my fault!" "Can't you guys drive?" "Someone hit me from behind!" "I'm sending in this replay to Papy!" "Oh go ahead…" "Moron!" I hit escape and went back to the driver's room. Little did I know that no matter where I raced from there on in, whether it was Hawaii, NROS, Ten or GPL, nothing would ever change as far as first lap crashes and stupid mid race moves were concerned. It was also an expensive lesson to learn, for although the Hawaii service was free, you still had to foot the bill for the long distance phone charges, and seeing that the server was in Watertown Massachusetts and that I was in Chicago Illinois, it wasn't cheap. With a lot of calls to different long distance companies, it was possible to get rates in the $.08 to $.10 range, but you were still looking at $4.80 to $6.00 and hour. OUCH! If you were married, double OUCH! (The second ouch was when your spouse hit you in the head with a baseball bat after seeing the telephone bill.) At every level of online sim racing I have found people I could run with. In Hawaii my favorite guys to draft with had names like FRATEDOG, CMONE, SHELL and my brother AXELTIM. If you qualified up front you might actually have a respectable race from time to time and when it all went right, when everyone raced as if it was for real, it could be a heart stopping, sweat on the forehead experience. But unfortunately, for those of us who have a little pride and want to be known as someone you can race with, the good races are few and far between. If the drivers in GPL spent half as much time working on their starts as they do trying to impress us with hot laps, the sim-racing world would be a better place. I, in all honesty, cannot recall the last time I was the cause of a starting line crash. For those of you who believe you are doing well - 'I only screw up one out of every 20 starts!' - you're probably not. One in 20 is not good. If everyone in a race has that accident to start ratio, then every race will have a starting line crash. 20 drivers across 20 races. Every one of them will crash once on the start. Each race will have a start line fiasco. Simple math. So where do we go from here? How can we change that? First you must identify the cause, and that would be two words. NO FEAR. If you don't have fear, you do stupid things. Not afraid of fire? You'll put your hand in the flame. Not afraid of electricity? You're the guy who walks with an open umbrella above his head during a lightning storm. Not afraid of getting hurt when you're going side by side into Curva Grande? You won't lift and you and some other poor chump will end up in the fencing while four other cars get caught up in the mess. What is the answer? It would seem to me that the answer would lie in the software. If the software can decide just how much damage to assess to your vehicle when you crash, why can't it assess whether or not you were injured? Or act as the "Commissioner" and suspend the driver? Here's an example. Your racing down the main straight at Kylami and another driver goes underneath you into the first turn. He can't hold his line and you both slide across the grass and crash into the fencing. Hard. The software could read the accident and decide that, along with a busted suspension and lost wheels, one or both of you should be injured or suspended. At that point your GPL software would shut down. Period. The software would decide how long the sim was down. Maybe an hour or two for a minor injury. Maybe two days for a major. And this part of the sim would only be activated in the multi-player mode; maybe an option in pro-races only. The downside is you might be an innocent bystander in the crash and have to pay a price. So what. It happens in real racing. The upside is you would be forced to take care while racing online. Not only would you not want to injure yourself, you surely wouldn't want to injure another driver. Or worse yet, injure another driver while you walked away Scot-free. How would you like to go back to the chat room after that? Especially when the other driver, although not able to race, would still be able to go into the chat room while waiting out his suspension/injury. Could something like this be circumvented? Sure. But do you want to keep a second version of the sim on your computer ready to go with all your setups installed and up to date? Do you want to have to re-install the sim, including patches and updates, to beat the suspension? Turn your computers time/date forward to get around it? And of course I'm sure a quick thinking programmer could block all of those scenarios. Maybe even have the online server read the suspension. Go ahead and reload the sim, but the server would recognize the name and not allow access to races. For sim racing to evolve, to be more realistic, something has to change. The drivers won't, so the software will have to. Michael Loos Gasoline Alley...The Fastest Show In Radio! Nationwide Saturdays at 10:00 pm Eastern - 7:00 pm Pacific Find your local affiliate at www.GasolineAlleyOnline.net

Hi Jan, > I don't usually comment on this, but did you *have* to copy > Tom's entire post + Mike's html post just to ask this? why, did you read it again by mistake? ;-) Achim

Hi Rob, that's true! Achim "Rob Swindells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> ... > I've raced FFord Zetec 1800 at Brands Hatch and FFord 1600 at > Silverstone... Racing is racing, whether it's F1, NASCAR, FFord, Sim > Racing.. you're still tring to control a high powered car and drive it > faster to beat the other guy, imo. > > Sure doing a lap in a FFord and a lap in GPL is an altogether different > kettle of fish. But when it's you and him braking for the last corner on > the last lap... it's RACING in any shape or form. I think that the skill > that requires in sim racing should be respected. > > > > Plus he's 4 times World Champion elect and arguably the greatest living > > racing driver. > > > Doesn't mean he can pass judgement on sim racing based on a few laps of > a Playstation GAME... > > Rob > >

Sorry for the double post guys, I hit the send button before I was ready. (sheepish grin). I wrote this for Tim Wheatley's Legends Central Racing View more than a year ago. With the way Nascar 4 online racing has been going, it may be time to take another look at it. Remember, this would be an OPTION in the software, one I would love to have. To my thinking it would place the responsibility squarely on the driver. This is what I wrote... I've been a sim racer since the original Indy 500 was released in the late 80's and I have been enthralled ever since. After "500" I invested in World Circuit, and it's graphics and physics were unlike anything I could have imagined. Then on to Nascar and ICR, Racer Heaven! My brother Timothy and I would race for hours in the multi-player mode. Dicing back and forth at Talladega and Milwaukee until, lo' and behold, word came that an online beta service was coming into play. NIRVANA! It was named the Hawaii Network and was brought to us by the people at Papyrus. I first read about it in the back of the aftermarket Nascar sim guide, and it was a dream come true. We scoured the net until we found the software and immediately signed up. It was explained that we would have to wait for an Email from Papy to log on. A few days passed and nothing happened. Finally on a bright and cheery Saturday morning I logged on. Nope, I had not received my Email, but I figured the worst that could happen would be a disconnect (which never came.) I went into the driver's room and it was as if I had been transported to a private club under the stands of some faraway racetrack. Guys were discussing their setups and other drivers, who they could draft with and who to stay away from. The races that were available were at the top of the screen like a bookie's tote board. It was orgasmic. I selected a race and pressed enter. The screen burped and flashed… and then there I was, sitting in the pits at Dega'! My hands were sweating on my Thrustmaster wheel and as silly as it seems, my breathing was a little shallow and my heart was pounding out a staccato rhythm. As I stared out over the dash, the car in front of me moved out and down pit road! On the track, at the same time, two cars barreled by me, nose to tail, engines redlined as they screamed their way across the start finish line. Two more cars rumbled by me on pit road. Four more in quick succession ripped past on the track. And each one of them a real person! It was mind-boggling! I cautiously engaged first gear and made my way down pit road as cars continued to whiz by on the banked tarmac to my right. Up through second, then third as I stayed low on the course through turn one and finally into fourth and up into the racing groove as the stands flashed by on the back straight. After a few laps of white knuckled practice the screen switched to qualifying mode. I again moved down pit road and out onto the track. Three laps later I had turned in a best speed of just over 190-mph. Not so good, but not so bad for my first time. As I recall, I was in the back of the field. No pace lap. No cautions. Damage on. The green flagged dropped and I tromped down on the accelerator. My car sprang forward and I kept in line, following the car in front of me. Suddenly the car behind me jumped unexpectedly to my left and began to pass me. I could hear him shift and I knew he had geared first, second and third very steep so that he could get a good jump. He went by me below the white line as we turned into turn one. I lifted and let him in; he was inches in front of me. Then he shifted to fourth and of course the car fell flat on its face. I lifted hard as his car stopped accelerating and promptly got booted up the rear end. Cars started spinning and I was immediately sitting in the middle of a classic melee. When the dust had settled, my hood was scrunched up and the car wouldn't turn. The chat board went crazy with people screaming at each other. "Oh for Christ's sake…" "Idiots!" "Again?" "Sorry." "Who is 17?" "It wasn't my fault!" "Can't you guys drive?" "Someone hit me from behind!" "I'm sending in this replay to Papy!" "Oh go ahead…" "Moron!" I hit escape and went back to the driver's room. Little did I know that no matter where I raced from there on in, whether it was Hawaii, NROS, Ten or GPL, nothing would ever change as far as first lap crashes and stupid mid race moves were concerned. It was also an expensive lesson to learn, for although the Hawaii service was free, you still had to foot the bill for the long distance phone charges, and seeing that the server was in Watertown Massachusetts and that I was in Chicago Illinois, it wasn't cheap. With a lot of calls to different long distance companies, it was possible to get rates in the $.08 to $.10 range, but you were still looking at $4.80 to $6.00 and hour. OUCH! If you were married, double OUCH! (The second ouch was when your spouse hit you in the head with a baseball bat after seeing the telephone bill.) At every level of online sim racing I have found people I could run with. In Hawaii my favorite guys to draft with had names like FRATEDOG, CMONE, SHELL and my brother AXELTIM. If you qualified up front you might actually have a respectable race from time to time and when it all went right, when everyone raced as if it was for real, it could be a heart stopping, sweat on the forehead experience. But unfortunately, for those of us who have a little pride and want to be known as someone you can race with, the good races are few and far between. If the drivers in GPL spent half as much time working on their starts as they do trying to impress us with hot laps, the sim-racing world would be a better place. I, in all honesty, cannot recall the last time I was the cause of a starting line crash. For those of you who believe you are doing well - 'I only screw up one out of every 20 starts!' - you're probably not. One in 20 is not good. If everyone in a race has that accident to start ratio, then every race will have a starting line crash. 20 drivers across 20 races. Every one of them will crash once on the start. Each race will have a start line fiasco. Simple math. So where do we go from here? How can we change that? First you must identify the cause, and that would be two words. NO FEAR. If you don't have fear, you do stupid things. Not afraid of fire? You'll put your hand in the flame. Not afraid of electricity? You're the guy who walks with an open umbrella above his head during a lightning storm. Not afraid of getting hurt when you're going side by side into Curva Grande? You won't lift and you and some other poor chump will end up in the fencing while four other cars get caught up in the mess. What is the answer? It would seem to me that the answer would lie in the software. If the software can decide just how much damage to assess to your vehicle when you crash, why can't it assess whether or not you were injured? Or act as the "Commissioner" and suspend the driver? Here's an example. Your racing down the main straight at Kylami and another driver goes underneath you into the first turn. He can't hold his line and you both slide across the grass and crash into the fencing. Hard. The software could read the accident and decide that, along with a busted suspension and lost wheels, one or both of you should be injured or suspended. At that point your GPL software would shut down. Period. The software would decide how long the sim was down. Maybe an hour or two for a minor injury. Maybe two days for a major. And this part of the sim would only be activated in the multi-player mode; maybe an option in pro-races only. The downside is you might be an innocent bystander in the crash and have to pay a price. So what. It happens in real racing. The upside is you would be forced to take care while racing online. Not only would you not want to injure yourself, you surely wouldn't want to injure another driver. Or worse yet, injure another driver while you walked away Scot-free. How would you like to go back to the chat room after that? Especially when the other driver, although not able to race, would still be able to go into the chat room while waiting out his suspension/injury. Could something like this be circumvented? Sure. But do you want to keep a second version of the sim on your computer ready to go with all your setups installed and up to date? Do you want to have to re-install the sim, including patches and updates, to beat the suspension? Turn your computers time/date forward to get around it? And of course I'm sure a quick thinking programmer could block all of those scenarios. Maybe even have the online server read the suspension. Go ahead and reload the sim, but the server would recognize the name and not allow access to races. For sim racing to evolve, to be more realistic, something has to change. The drivers won't, so the software will have to. Well, that was my thought over a year ago, and now that Nascar 4 is online, it becomes an even more compelling idea to me. Imagine running in a league with this option on. I, for one, would relish the reality of someone who cuts down on you even though you are up beside him at the turn entrance having to serve a two day online suspension. Even if I have to pay the price also, at least I know when I come back that the idiot might have a better idea of what he should be doing, especially as far as online manners are concerned. Then again, maybe nothing would change. :( Michael Loos Gasoline Alley...The Fastest Show In Radio! Nationwide Saturdays at 10:00 pm Eastern - 7:00 pm Pacific Find your local affiliate at www.GasolineAlleyOnline.net

Sort of: something got screwed up so Scott's reply was blacked out... so I scrolled through the whole thing again to find it... didn't and went through it more carefully. Then finally I got smart and looked at the message source. Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. "Joachim Trensz" wrote... > Hi Jan, > why, did you read it again by mistake? ;-)

Hi Achim! ;) Tru. Just havin' a bud! Joachim Trensz wrote: > Hi Rob, > > that's true! > > Achim

Hi Achim! ;) Tru. Just havin' a bud! > Hi Rob, > that's true! > Achim

lol....Rob....I'm really beginning to like you a lot! ("Besides...MS is a wanker!") ROFL. Thanks for the support..... Tom

Rob wrote: "Sure doing a lap in a FFord and a lap in GPL is an altogether different kettle of fish. But when it's you and him braking for the last corner on the last lap... it's RACING in any shape or form. I think that the skill that requires in sim racing should be respected." There's a growing number of people in real-world racing that are beginning to agree with you, Rob. They are growing in ranks at a far more rapid rate than most of the members of this sim community realize....or can understand, unless they spend a lot of time interfacing with the inside members of the real-world racing community (I'm not talking about being a race fan...I'm talking about being down in the trenches of real-world racing....which is where I try to do my work and efforts....every day). Today, I spend half my time trying to overcome the perception that what I do is "play games on my computer." Three years ago....I spend 95% of my time doing that. That's progress! I take it as such....only **progress**.......but I'm encouraged by the pace.....so far at least. I decided to "stand up and be counted" about this stupid "hot-lapping" thing because it is hurting the "progress" I'm talking about above. Do you know that I can find "quotes" and references as far back as Bob Bondurant's book (forgot the title...its over at a friends house at the moment) written around 1975....where he says (paraphrased), "We encourage our students to play video games as much as possible. It sharpens their senses and develops faster decision making skills and reaction times." He's talking about video games....of his time....that where mostly about banging a little square of pixels.....over a line....on a black and white TV screen! If that impressed him as having the ability to help a young, aspiring race car driver become a better driver......what would he say today about GPL or N4? Every single one of the racing schools around the world.....RIGHT NOW.....are looking into what racing simulators can add to their driver development programs! Here's what I'm ultimately working towards.....this is my philosophy....my "motivation" for quitting my full-time job 3 years ago and pursuing this effort 12 hours a day....7-days a week: "All that is necessary for simulated computer racing to **explode** onto the scene of real-world racing......is for one team, during one race at a high-visibility race venue......to be **perceived** by their competitors...... to have had an advantage because they used racing simulators.....then almost instantly.....every other team will seek to use them!" - quote: Tom Pabst, Pabst-Racing. Every single day.....I get up....and plan something to do that day that might help to make that happen sooner! Tom

<msg length edited for Jan> ;) I was just curious Mike. I figured with it being so close and all. ;) I was thinking of "crashing" it this weekend, but I had a few things to do in the office this morning (I hate virtual private networks when they don't work <G>) and have a few things I have to get done tonight. I hope you are having fun, racing well, and tell everyone I said hello! Oh yeah... Try to keep Ramsden out of prison! -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450 http://www.Husted.cc "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Ttwf7.301820$[email hidden]... > Yes,why? And I'll keep it short so Jan doesn't get his panties in a bunch. > (-: j/k Jan

Tom Pabst wrote:

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> > "All that is necessary for simulated computer racing to **explode** onto the > scene of real-world racing......is for one team, during one race at a > high-visibility race venue......to be **perceived** by their > competitors...... to have had an advantage because they used racing > simulators.....then almost instantly.....every other team will seek to use > them!" - quote: Tom Pabst, Pabst-Racing.

Hasn't this already happened? JV got pole position his first time out at Spa in '96, which he attributed partly to learning the track successfully with a computer game (GP2).

I think I could hurt myself trying to figure that one out. <G> (and yes, it has been awhile bud!) Quite honestly, I think events such as LikeReal racing can definitely help the situation. Dave McCall is definitely a great "ambassador." Even though Tom and I have had our differences, I think he has the right approach, or perhaps "ideology" is the right word? - even if it takes him 12 hours of typing and then 6 hours of reading on our parts to see it! <VBG> (That was a joke Tom!) For it to happen with "online" racing... there would have to be some form of sanctioning body that kept track of rules, statistics, results, and also had race officials to monitor activitied during EVERY sanctioned online event. Flame me if you want, but I see it as this "goal" has taken 10 steps backwards since the collapse of TEN. *shrugs* =) -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450 http://www.Husted.cc "Michael Barlow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Xvwf7.322007$[email hidden]... > Hey Scott! Long time no see :-) bummer you didn't have anything to add > to the post, it would be interesting to find out what everyone thinks it > would take to make SimRacing a Sport worthy of TV, or Radio, or ....et.. >

I also believe Kevin Harvick attributed winning Atlanta from watching replays of my very first race in OSCAR, which I won at Atlanta, back on TEN. Then again, I could be mistaken. <VBG> =P -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450 http://www.Husted.cc "Pierre Robitaille" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Tom Pabst wrote: > > > > "All that is necessary for simulated computer racing to **explode** onto the > > scene of real-world racing......is for one team, during one race at a > > high-visibility race venue......to be **perceived** by their > > competitors...... to have had an advantage because they used racing > > simulators.....then almost instantly.....every other team will seek to use > > them!" - quote: Tom Pabst, Pabst-Racing. > > Hasn't this already happened? JV got pole position his first time > out at Spa in '96, which he attributed partly to learning the track > successfully with a computer game (GP2).

Achim... We agree it seems, almost 100%. Reminder....I'm not asking the sim community to stop hot-lapping. I fully admit that its fun......its just not racing. Hot-lapping is a phenomenon of "simulated racing" and doesn't exist anywhere else but on computers! Its the same "fun and motivation" that compels a person to stand up to an Arcade machine at a bar and slam quarters into it all night long! What I'm asking is to strike a balance within this community that represents more fairly.....what sim racing is all about. This GPLRank thing has gotten way out of hand. Newbies coming into our community are lead to think that's all we do! I want to put an end to it......NOT by eliminating the "hot-lapping" phenomenon.....just by placing it carefully back in its place.....while at the same time, bringing forth to its proper place....the elements of sim racing that are similar, equal to...or what ever term you wish to use......to real-world racing and all that this entails. I would like to see this community stop setting some of these "hot-lappers" up on pedestals of "elite drivers"....the "cream of the top" drivers.....which are terms I see used almost every day in this newsgroup and on VROC.....and start recognizing our top sim community drivers for the races they win....and compete in....not how fast they can run a "flyer lap" at a particular track! That "skill" makes them great "gamers".....I fully admit....but is that who we want to single out and hold up to the real-world racing people who are watching what we do with great interest.....as our best drivers? Oh God......I hope not! The fact is...."hot-lapping" is easy to report the statistics for........and compare people with (meaningless) numbers mistakenly thought of as indicative of one's racing skills. That GPLRank web page is no different than the "High Score" boxes on the top of every Arcade machine I've ever seen! Its exactly the same thing! Is that a bad thing? "No." As I've said already many times........there's nothing wrong with it except if you try to make this out to be indicative of race driving skills. Every day.....someone from real-world racing is going to "peek through the window" into our racing sim community world. They might only take a look for five minutes! If what they see is "gaming" as far as they are concerned......they are going to go away. And....they'll go away with the wrong impression....won't they? All I'm saying is.....right now....while we are being placed under microscopes by real-world racing......I'd be pleased as hell if that GPLRank page was taken off the public net! But, then I'm not going to advocate that because its not my right to do that. So....the next best thing is to try to get it "balanced" with other statistics and methods.......of relating our sim driving skills to real-world race driving skills....in ways that real-world racing people can recognize and understand in terms of "their world!" All these wreckers that we've seen in N4 are doing that because they enjoy it. Its "fun" to them. If it wasn't fun....they wouldn't engage in that activity....(nobody is making them do it)! I don't even begrudge them the right to do it. I just want them to do it in races where there only exists.....other wreckers who do it for fun, too! Hell...they can even have a GPL"Wreckers"Rank website for all I care.....its not an activity with sim racing that I will participate in.....right? I don't even care if they talk about this anywhere in real-world racing places....because no one in real-world racing will recognize or look upon this as "racing." Its destruction derby....maybe the Friday night dirt-track promoters who make a lot of money organizing local destruction derby races will love these sim gamers? Who knows....who cares? Its not what I love about sim racing. To me....the GPLRank websites......and a GPLWreckersRank websites......are (would be) displaying statitistics of an equal nature.....fun stuff to those participants who do it.....but not having anything to do with racing as the real-world does it. I have no problem with that. But, when a GPLWrecker/Ranker.....wants to tout himself as a race car driver......then I'm going to object to that....because he is hurting my efforts to get real-world racing to stop thinking that all we are doing is playing games on our computers! I don't know how to make that any clearer....I hope it is. Tom Pabst

"Scott B. Husted" wrote: > > I also believe Kevin Harvick attributed winning Atlanta from watching > replays of my very first race in OSCAR, which I won at Atlanta, back on TEN. LOL!! The result of a warp, no doubt... ;)

"O" Come on Mike G, your trollng now! "Real life" constitutes your ass in a real race car or any motorsport race vehicle! So dont play "I dont know what you mean?" Damm! Yes it **is** real competition in a PC sim but thats all it is a PC sim!! I've put 1000 of laps on many tracks on the eastcoast & mid-west so I know the difference between being there in "Real Life" & not as with a PC. If you do not you have a "reality" problem.. PCs are just an illusion & they are great but not real. So dont even go here about injury crap etc as it is not a factor!! You know this as well as I do "If you really have raced!" The only {and I mean "only"} point I made was the words are used in these "Sim-Games" 'i.e. PB, Racing, Qualify etc meaning these are only words. No more, No less! Fact! "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aPtf7.300869$[email hidden]... Thom, what exactly constitutes real life racing. This is my real life and when i'm sitting behind my computer racing it appears to be real competition. I've raced in real life and raced in simulations and the only real difference I see is that I can't get injured and it costs alot less. The competition is alot stiffer than it was in real life also. I guess I don't quite understand your idea of it not being real simply because it is on a computer. Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Sasf7.114720$[email hidden]... Now a response: Sorry Tom this time I really *don't agree* with your comments! This is "rec.autos.simulators" and in many of the "sim-games" it will state, Qualify, PB, Racing, and much more! Of course this *isnt* "real life" racing and anyone that thinks this is, are diluted! So no matter what word or words that are used here it still *is* and always will be "rec.autos.simulators" here. Bottom line: to me Tom, Your taking words & dissecting them when they do not need to be! This newsgroup is just that a newsgroup for 'rec.sim'ers' if you will no more, no less. -Thom_j. "Tom Pabst" wrote: | So, please....could you guys "hot-lap" all you want...but just stop talking

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| about it as if it was racing? Please? | | Regards, | | Tom Pabst | |

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So from the 19kb's worth - I can establish that you want everyone to do a search & replace for the word "racing" and replace with "hot lapping" where appropriate. Seems fairly petty to me Doug

Gerry... I think the "don't-give-a-shiters" are in the minority....not the majority as is the "impression" you are trying to create with your post. Impressions are everything. In real life....there's even a historical precedent for impressions and images trying to be changed....to better the sport of racing. 50 some years ago.....Bill France spent a considerable amount of his time and effort (every single day) trying to change the "impressions" that the Detroit automakers had.....of Friday-night dirt track jalopy drivers as being beer-drinking, fat-gutted, rowdy-crowd race car drivers completely incapable of being organized into a professional race car driving group. Certainly, they would not ever possess the ability to attract the attention of auto buyers....like the sophisticated and good looking sports car drivers of the "then" world were doing! That was Detroit's "impression" of circle track drivers. Bill France was laughed out of so many Detroit board rooms it would make your head spin. This has all been well documented. But he wasn't deterred......by laughter or all the people who told him he was completely crazy to try to make his vision....of circle track racing....become a reality. I don't have to tell you that he prevailed. Now....some of you are going to jump right on this and say, "Oh...so now Pabst thinks he's Bill France or something!" Well, my answer is ....come on guys. Of course I don't think I'm Bill France.....or capable of doing anything close to achieving the things that he did with NASCAR. But that doesn't mean that I might not be running into some of the very same kind of thinking...that he did....50 years ago. Recognizing that similarity.....doesn't make me a Bill France "wannabe!" I can tell you that since learning of the history of NASCAR (only two years ago...along with everyone else I watched many of the specials on TV during NASCAR's 50 Years specials).....I've tried to read and learn as much as I can about what Bill France did. Why? Not because I want to be like him. But, I do want something of the same result he got! So, if I can learn some things from what he did that worked......and more importantly...what he did that did NOT work. I'm ahead of the game....at least by that much. One of the characteristics of Bill France was that when he believed in something, or believed something was standing in his way of attaining his dream for circle track racing.....he didn't give a rats ass about whether he was going to be "popular" or not for standing up and being "for or against" something! If in that way, people want to say I'm trying to be like Bill France.....well, you are damn right about that. I have been against this GPLRank...hot-lapping thing for two years now. But I've never said so....publicly. Three weeks ago I re-installed GPL and VROC (for some other business reasons....I wanted to be more in touch with the GPL community....get some feed back from them and so forth....mostly related to the BRD deal we are doing....and frankly, I missed racing GPL, more than I realized until I started driving it again). I was immediately struck......and was amazed that this hot-lapping, GPLRank thing had gotten way out of control! That's my opinion.....and I'm entitled to that. I decided it was time to stop being quiet about this issue.....and stand up for what I believed in. I started that process last night with this post.....it will probably go on for months. And, it won't make me popular....but it will make me honest. Tom

Pierre... "Yes" it happened.....but it wasn't "perceived to have given him the advantage" by the other teams.......that's the "key" element missing from that event with JV. I don't think JV's statement was taken seriously by the other teams or drivers. He was a total unknown rookie at the time.....so who would pay attention to him? The same thing would apply to Dale Earnhardt, Jr.....winning his first Busch race at Watkins Glen a few years back. He said he practiced on his computer at home....on TV. But nobody paid any attention to it....because he was another unknown rookie! Remember....the "use of a computer simulator" doesn't even need to actually give somebody an advantage (although I think its clear that there are many ways that it could do this)....it only needs to be **perceived** to have done so by his/her competitors. Let's play a little fantasy for a moment: What would happen if Jeff Gordon happens to win the NASCAR Championship (again) this year.....just two years after he lost Ray Evernham as his crew chief......who, many presumed....was the real reason for Jeff Gordon's amazing success in his first few years in NASCAR (and not Jeff's racing skills). And, at this year's NASCAR Champions Award Banquet.....Jeff says (during his acceptance speech) something like this: "I know many of you thought that it was because of Ray Evernham that I won my first two Winston Cup Championships. He played a significant role in those championships....but not the primary one! What had played a primary role....and did again for us this year.....was the fact that during a race, we have a guy on a computer simulator back in our truck. He plugs in all the race conditions into the sim.....all the stuff that's happening to me in the race car out on the real track.....and then does trial and error adjustments to the car's setup on the simulator....and radios to our pits the things that he discovers work better. That's why we've been able to make these amazing adjustments to my race car....during the race as it progresses. That's why I can be at the back of the field at the start of the race with a crappy car set up.....and be at the front of the field at the checkered....with an awesome set up race car! I just thought it was time to be fair to all of you and tell you how we have been doing this!" There will be a stampede to the door......crew chiefs and owners looking for telephones......to find out what the hell Jeff Gordon is talking about. I might even get one of those phone calls? Of course....this is a complete fantasy and I do not expect anything like this to happen. I'm only using it as an example.....of what I mean by somebody being perceived as having had an advantage....by using a racing simulator. Tom

Huh?...... Tom Pabst wrote:

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> .....So I'm going to try to keep this as short as I can (and it will > probably still be too long). Sorry. > > My reasons for making this post are based on my love of racing (real and > simulated) and a desire to see simulated racing become respected as a form > of racing where the skills of the sim driver approach, if not equal, the > skills of the real-world driver. I believe I won't get too much argument > that an enormous amount of good can come to the simulated racing community, > its members (drivers), its software developers both individual and > corporate, same for the hardware developers and manufacturers, > leagues/series administrators...and so forth, if the real-world racing > community embraced the simulated racing community with something on the > order of equal stature and respect. Its no secret that I have spent the > better part of the last five years (full-time for the last three years) > trying to do my part to bridge the gap between sim racing and real racing. > So I'm not going to go into all the supporting reasons why I think we'd > benefit by being respected as racing drivers....by real-world racing drivers > and their "community"....I kind of figure that's a given! > > I also want to state without any doubt, I totally defend the right of any > member of this community to choose to enjoy sim racing however they wish to > do so. If that means they want to treat this activity as a leisure-time, > fun, game-playing activity.....that is 100% their right to do so. That > includes the so called "wreckers" even! I would defend their right to wreck > other drivers in a race with them....if that's their idea of "fun" they are > entitled to it. They are just not entitled to wreck other drivers who don't > share their sense of fun. As long as the "wreckers" all race together and > not with other more serious-minded sim drivers/participants....that's Okay > with me! > > So, for sake of simplicity......I would like to divide all the members of > this community into two general groups: Serious sim racing drivers and > game-playing sim racing drivers. Notice, I did not say "two equal > groups".......I have no idea how many members of this community, if asked to > place themselves in one group or the other.....would be in each group. We > could say, "50/50"....but it really doesn't matter to me....it has nothing > to do with what "point" I'd like to make. Let's say, there's a substantial > number of people in both groups....together they make up the sim racing > community I'm referring to in this post. > > So....to the point I would like to make: When someone who is engaging in an > activity of sim racing that is clearly "game playing" (like wrecking cars > instead of racing against cars)......tries to make that out to be serious > race car driving......sim race car driving to be exact.......then I am going > to stand up and shout "NO." Why? > > Because I'm trying to get real-racing people to look upon the activities of > the "serious sim drivers" in this community with some respect.....respect > because they have the same or close to the same skills as real race car > drivers. I know that, but at this point, they don't know that! And, I > can't do that if a vocal minority of "game players" in this online community > keeps calling what they are doing "race driving".....it discredits everyone > in the sim racing community when that happens. Or, should I say, it > discredits them as far as the real-world racing community is concerned. > And, that is the opposite of what I think....as do many others in this > community....would be good for sim racing. > > I'm not talking about the "wreckers"....am I. No. They are a small > minority....true. But they are not very vocal. > > I am talking about the GPL community. Not all of its members of > course......but a far too large number of them.....and a way to large vocal > number of them. I'm also talking about a few in the N4 community.....but > its a relatively small number.....in my opinion at least. > > So, to many of you.....it might seem as if I'm attacking the GPL sim racing > community.....that often referred to group of "elite" sim racers (a term > I've heard too much of lately...makes me want to throw up > sometimes).......and that's why I figured this was not going to be popular. > > Well, I'm not attacking anyone. > > But I am going to ask the GPL community, some (but not all)....of its > members....to do me, and anyone else in this community that would like to > see sim racing some day become a full-fledged e-sport form of racing....a > very big favor! I don't know for sure how many others there are among you > that would like to see sim racing become a respected form of racing......I > know I can name a couple hundred.....and that's enough to ask this favor, I > think? > > Here's the favor: Please stop referring to, in public places (like this > newsgroup, race chat rooms, VROC, etc.)....referring to "hot-lapping," or > the GPLRank - (Hot-lapping scoreboard).....as racing, race car driving or > having anything to do with racing skills. I'm not asking you to stop doing > it. I'm not asking you to stop liking to do it even! I am asking you to > stop calling it "racing".....because it isn't. And, when members of the > real-world racing community see you doing this.....you discredit everyone > who is a serious sim driver in this community....and would like to bridge > the gap between themselves and the real-world race drivers. I don't think > this is an unfair "favor" to ask of you. > > I would like to make a few "points" in support of my request: > > 1. In case there is any doubt that this "game" activity of hot-lapping is > being referred to by its participants as "racing"....here's a direct quote > off a web page displaying the GPLRank list: **When players reach the magic > sub zero score, they would have reached a milestone putting them in a > category of excellence in driving. A point we all strive for.** That is a > direct "cut and paste" copy from the following website: > http://www.technobyte.com.au/Advantage1/GPL/subzero.html > > 2. Real world racing does not engage in any activity that even resembles > "hot-lapping" or keeps any records or "lists" that would resemble the > GPLRank system list of drivers. Nobody in real-world racing could afford to > crash their cars....what....several hundred times (some of you say several > thousand times).....in order to pull off some totally lucky "flyer lap" > ...and then post it somewhere so they can be thought of as an "excellent > race driver." Of course, nobody in real-world racing would live through > such an activity, either. > > 3. The closest thing I can attribute in real-world racing to something that > maybe some of the "hot-lappers" have confused to be similar to what they > do.....and call it racing......is maybe "qualifying" or....."fastest race > lap"......or maybe even "track record holder." But, let's be clear about > this. No race driver I know of, made it to the "hall of fame" of public > opinion (or the real one) in racing because they had a lot of > races.....where they had the "fastest lap" in that race. They don't keep > that score in real-world racing. I don't think anyone made it for having > the most "track records" either. I know they don't put you in the hall of > fame for having been on the most poles.....heck, no one can even remember > who the pole sitter was....come Monday morning...usually (unless of course > you also win the race on Sunday). The only thing they put you in the "hall > of fame" for....is winning races....winning championships (based on > winning/finishing position...in races). > > 4. I spent an hour.....maybe it should have been longer.....but I couldn't > find a single GPL related website that listed all the GPL drivers in ranking > of the number of races they've won. Or, the number of podium finishes > they've had. I have no idea who the good race car drivers are in GPL....or > what they do or where they race....and certainly not how they rank amongst > themselves. I do know however, who all the best "game playing hot-lappers" > are. That took me just a minute or two to find. Too bad, because no one in > real racing cares about that....I know I certainly don't. It might be > fun....but its not about racing. > > 5. In real-world racing.....there's a sub-amateur form of driving called > "autocross".....and even a professional form of it in the USA, called "Pro > Solo II" sanctioned by the SCCA. Its quite a fun activity....I've done it > several times and its exciting and challenging...and not easy to beat the > guys who do nothing else but autocrossing. For those of you that don't know > what this is.....its racing against a clock....solo....through usually a > parking lot full of "gates" marked out by yellow or orange cones. The car > (usually they are ranked in classes) and driver who traverse the coned gates > in the shortest time.....and don't knock any cones over (they penalize you > for knocking over cones).....is declared the winner of the autocross event. > They have second and third places too. Sometimes, if your autocross club > has a lot of members, they can afford to give you little trophies or plaques > if you come in first, second or third. I don't think anyone in real-world > racing would confuse autocrossing with racing.....or autocross drivers with > race car drivers....although many autocross drivers have moved up to amateur > SCCA racing and then gone on to full professional racing as well. > Autocrossing would actually be a level or two above "hot-lapping"...if they > did hot-lapping in the real world.....because in autocrossing, you can't cut > the corners off....go over the curbs...or go off into the grass.....because > you'd knock over a cone and be penalized a second for doing that. > Autocrossing would be a lot harder than hot-lapping...but they don't have > hot-lapping so they don't think of it that way. > > 6. I have a lot of books about racing, race car driving, skills of > racing....and so forth. I looked through all of them. I couldn't find > anything in them about hot-lapping....although I could find a lot of > references to how stupid it would be to attempt to run the fastest lap > possible....when you were racing. That was even frowned upon during a > qualifying run......nobody thought running a "flyer lap"....with all the > risks that it had to go with it.....was worth winning a pole position > for...no one would even remember by Monday morning anyway. I couldn't find > a single driver ever having been given even a little trophy or a plaque..... > for holding the track record at any race track...anywhere in the world - at > any level of racing! At least, they do give those to autocross winners for > being fast on parking lots! > > 7. Those same books had lots of lists of the attributes and skills that > winning race car drivers possess. Here's some of them: > ***Winning Racing Skills*** > a. The ability to help create a race car setup that's the best for > the conditions of the race. > b. The ability to achieve a higher number of consistent fast laps > than his/her competitors over the course of the entire race length. > c. The ability to stay focused and concentrate on each turn of each > lap.... lap after lap after lap, through the entire race without > breech of his/her concentration, or lapses in judgment. > d. The ability to spend the least attention on driving "fast" > during a race, and the most attention on tactics and strategy. > e. The ability to have mechanical empathy - manages the vehicle > platform better than his/her competitors in the same race. [One > thousand crashes per completed "hot-lap" is not having mechanical empathy!] > f. The ability to expend the least amount of physical energy > during a race...a relaxed driver in a calm mental state expends less > energy, has improved endurance, concentration and the ability to > continuously determine priorities and stay focused. > > I could go on with additions to this basic list, which came from the book > "The Art Of Racing", co-authored by Don Alexander and Mark Martin. But this > was the best example I had of a concise list of "winning race driving > skills"......it was short and to the point. Please note that "hot-lapping" > is not on this list....nor was it on any list of any of the books I looked > at tonight. I doubt it would appear on any list anywhere....about race > driving skills...at least! Kind of makes that sentence above on the GPLRank > website.....look pretty stupid doesn't it? Scroll back up and read it > again......now that you've read this far.....see what I mean? > > 8. Earlier this week, I had a chance to jump onto VROC one afternoon. I > didn't have time to race....because just got GPL setup on my "other race > box" a couple weeks back anyway...I'd be pretty non-competitive without > having run GPL for about 18 months or so. But, I like talking racing with > many of the VROC drivers (except when they start talking about their > GPLRank...or PB's at such and such a track.......usually I get bored and > sign off...or go race for a while or something)....and I am looking for some > people who might want to be distributors of the BRD product line in a couple > parts of the country where we need some help. It turns out there was a > couple guys down in LA who were interested and one back east.....all open > territories for us at the moment. I asked them to send me an email so I > could get their email address easily and send them some info. Since I > didn't know them previously, I also asked them to tell me a little about > their sim racing experience....keeping it short and simple. This wasn't an > employment application for an F1 race team as a driver! ....lol... All > three sent me an email.....right away (within minutes)...it was great. > However, the first one I read....started out with a disclaimer about not > wanting to look like he was bragging about how good of a racing driver he > was....but his GPLRank was......some number?? it make no sense to me (-2 I > think?). I deleted that email. The other two guys started off with > something of similar "disclaimers" about bragging....and managed to get to > their GPLRank numbers before the end of the first paragraph. Those got > deleted too. God forbid I'd end up having some "gamer" representing the > professional line of BRD race controllers and cockpits.....to a real race > team in their territory....if I should refer one of them to our distributor. > Ain't no way that is going to happen! > > So, in closing....let me repeat this to all of you who enjoy > hot-lapping....and have fun with your GPLRank. I totally defend your right > to those activities and I wouldn't do anything to stop you from doing > them...and enjoying them. I am asking you to do me the favor of stop > referring to those things as "racing" or "race driving"....at least in all > the public forums of the sim racing community. I don't care what you do in > private email...or in "whisper chat"....for that matter. > > Here's a list of people I've either had business discussions with, and/or > have had in one of our simulators (Pabst-Racing simulators) or raced > with/against over the Internet in a racing simulator (and then talked some > business)...over the last two years. Many of these people have actually > been in my home. They are all from real-world racing and they are all > interested in what all this sim racing stuff is about these days! They are: > > Ken Ude (Bell Helmets investor/owner), Brad Pierce (Pierce Motorsports, ACRL > 2000 Season Driver Champion - City of Las Vegas), Kris Mellon (M & R > Motorsports - engineered about 30 individual 24-Hours Of Daytona-Rolex race > finishers and 6 winning cars over the last 25 years), Don Panoz (Panoz > Motorsports - owner/promoter ALMS), Tom Seabolt (Ops Manager, Grand American > Series, former team manager of Holbert Racing), Andy Evans (former owner of > IMSA, former owner of ALMS, owner of 7 IRL Indy500 qualifiers in 1997, > personal friend of Bill Gates), Jacques Coutre' (Operations Manager/owner, > Jim Russell Racing Schools), John Zudell (Director of Track Developments, > SMI Corp), Humpy Wheeler (President, SMI Corp), Tony Sakkis (writer, "Racer > Magazine"), Ron Huber (Bell Helmets investor/owner, Winston West driver), > Rob Weston (Director of Marketing, Jim Russell Racing Schools), JD Kramer > (WoO driver/team owner), David Grace (Director, Rockingham Motor Speedway - > Rockingham, England)...and the following drivers: Dave McEntee (ALMS > driver), Mika Hakinnen (F1 driver, McLaren), Alan McNish (ALMS driver, F1 > test driver), Randy Pobst (ALMS driver), Scott Sharp (IRL driver), Ward > Burton (Winston Cup driver), Steve Park (Winston Cup driver), Jeff Gordon > (Winston Cup driver), Bobby Labonte (Winston Cup driver), Dale Earnhardt, > Jr. (Winston Cup driver), Robby Gordon (IRL/Winston Cup driver). This list > is by no means a complete list of everyone we've talked to or had business > discussions with from real-world racing...and its not in any order because I > just typed it off the top of my head (apologies to anyone who's name I > misspelled for that reason). > > I would love it someday if I could let any one on that list sit next to me > while I entered a VROC GPL race....and chat with the drivers in VROC. But, > I can't do that today. God forbid...any of these people would know how to > access this r.a.s. newsgroup.....it wouldn't take but a few posts like those > below ("GPL and not left-foot braking..." and others)...and I'd be laughed > all the way back to Missouri by these folks. The entire sim racing > community would lose if that happened. > > So, please....could you guys "hot-lap" all you want...but just stop talking > about it as if it was racing? Please? > > Regards, > > Tom Pabst

Pierre Robitaille wrote:

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> > "Scott B. Husted" wrote: > > > > I also believe Kevin Harvick attributed winning Atlanta from watching > > replays of my very first race in OSCAR, which I won at Atlanta, back on TEN. > > LOL!! The result of a warp, no doubt... ;)

Not even the USS Enterprise could warp fast enough to make Husted a winner..... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse news:[email hidden]... <Snip> >When a couple of buddies and myself decide to meet online to > repeatedly blow the crap out of eachother, I say <snip>: "I'm racing > later". > > Clear? >Certainly, you wrecker, you! /Jens, ducking and running for cover. :-) P.S.: reac.autos.inevermeantthat ?

Ramsden , trouble......never happen. The Albany LAN is August31, Sept 1,2. Come on up on saturday if you can, that willl be the best day topped off with the "Daytona Boogie" in memory of DE with prizes and trophies. Should be a live feed to Kelsey Irish Pub along with a live broadcast by WGNA(capital districts biggest country radio station) in the lobby of the Crowne Plaza. Open to the public with Budweiser specials. Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... <msg length edited for Jan> ;) I was just curious Mike. I figured with it being so close and all. ;) I was thinking of "crashing" it this weekend, but I had a few things to do in the office this morning (I hate virtual private networks when they don't work <G>) and have a few things I have to get done tonight. I hope you are having fun, racing well, and tell everyone I said hello! Oh yeah... Try to keep Ramsden out of prison! -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450 http://www.Husted.cc "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Ttwf7.301820$[email hidden]... > Yes,why? And I'll keep it short so Jan doesn't get his panties in a bunch. > (-: j/k Jan

Well Thom, I know exactly what I'm talking about. Racing is racing, whether it be Nascar, DIRT, Formula One, CART, RC cars, Slot cars, or Sim racing. It seems it is you that doesn't know what real life means. Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:sAyf7.115460$[email hidden]... "O" Come on Mike G, your trollng now! "Real life" constitutes your ass in a real race car or any motorsport race vehicle! So dont play "I dont know what you mean?" Damm! Yes it **is** real competition in a PC sim but thats all it is a PC sim!! I've put 1000 of laps on many tracks on the eastcoast & mid-west so I know the difference between being there in "Real Life" & not as with a PC. If you do not you have a "reality" problem.. PCs are just an illusion & they are great but not real. So dont even go here about injury crap etc as it is not a factor!! You know this as well as I do "If you really have raced!" The only {and I mean "only"} point I made was the words are used in these "Sim-Games" 'i.e. PB, Racing, Qualify etc meaning these are only words. No more, No less! Fact! "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aPtf7.300869$[email hidden]... Thom, what exactly constitutes real life racing. This is my real life and when i'm sitting behind my computer racing it appears to be real competition. I've raced in real life and raced in simulations and the only real difference I see is that I can't get injured and it costs alot less. The competition is alot stiffer than it was in real life also. I guess I don't quite understand your idea of it not being real simply because it is on a computer. Mike Grandy Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Sasf7.114720$[email hidden]... Now a response: Sorry Tom this time I really *don't agree* with your comments! This is "rec.autos.simulators" and in many of the "sim-games" it will state, Qualify, PB, Racing, and much more! Of course this *isnt* "real life" racing and anyone that thinks this is, are diluted! So no matter what word or words that are used here it still *is* and always will be "rec.autos.simulators" here. Bottom line: to me Tom, Your taking words & dissecting them when they do not need to be! This newsgroup is just that a newsgroup for 'rec.sim'ers' if you will no more, no less. -Thom_j. "Tom Pabst" wrote: | So, please....could you guys "hot-lap" all you want...but just stoptalking

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| about it as if it was racing? Please? | | Regards, | | Tom Pabst | |

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>"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote > What are you expecting will change? Especially in something as incredibly > short as one year. And, I've mentioned it a lot more than 50times....lol.. > When is the last time you worked with a real-world professional driver ina > sophisticated racing simulator? It's quite easy Tom ;). You are at the top of the spectrum in terms of enthusiasm of simracing. About every other person on the planet takes it less seriously, in terms that yes they will be serious about their racing experience but they will keep it a personal experience. You think globally (yes, it's politics you do). You think about the potential, the money you can find out of it. No problem there, but you need to understand that everybody under you in the spectrum takes it much less seriously. I've passed by that, I spent nights thinking of possible ways to expand the community, thinking of possible NROS business plans for the future, etc... Yes, this has potential but is it really important that we should use a certain term or not in an XYZ situation? It's just a bloody word! :) > Guys like Alan Boyd and George Sandman and Bob Rowden Oh hey you know Alan and Bob? Tell Bob that it's a shame for that "big one" wreck last night at Daytona ;-) > Isn't that some progress, Francois? Yeah yeah... but it's just politics. I don't see anything related between that the the use of the term "racing" when somebody hotlaps against himself. I will repeat another time "There is no absolute definition of what is racing and what is not". Somebody else could perhaps say with the same arguments as you that virtual racing is not racing. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote > The next time you equate me to Don Wilshe.....I will be coming up toCanada > to pay a visit to you LOL! Ok sorry there ;-) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote > There will be a stampede to the door......crew chiefs and owners lookingfor > telephones......to find out what the hell Jeff Gordon is talking about. I > might even get one of those phone calls? They almost all use simulators anyway, so there wouldn't be a fuss. Really, let's not confuse both things in this thread (the simracing potential and the use of the word "racing" when you race against the track by yourself). -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"Michael Barlow" <[email hidden]> wrote > Hey Scott! Long time no see :-) bummer you didn't have anything toadd > to the post, it would be interesting to find out what everyone thinks it > would take to make SimRacing a Sport worthy of TV, or Radio, or ....et.. Just also wanted to say "Hey there Mike" ;-) The thing is, WHY is it necessary to make it a sport worthy of the media? It's not important. For many it's just the capitalist attraction of money that TV or any other kind of media would bring to the "sport". We already have the Internet as a form of communication to back us up, why go to anything more? -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

I knew I should have punted you back at Zandvoort... Jan. ;-) =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. "Jens H. Kruuse" wrote... > <Snip> > Certainly, you wrecker, you! > > /Jens, ducking and running for cover. :-) > > P.S.: reac.autos.inevermeantthat ?

>"Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote > Ramsden , trouble......never happen. Yeah just tighten the collar and he's quite calm ;-D > The Albany LAN is August31, Sept 1,2. > Come on up on saturday if you can, that willl be the best day topped off > with the "Daytona Boogie" in memory of DE with prizes and trophies. Should > be a live feed to Kelsey Irish Pub along with a live broadcast by > WGNA(capital districts biggest country radio station) in the lobby of the > Crowne Plaza. I think he's just afraid of me! >Open to the public with Budweiser specials. mmmmmm.... cheap American low-alcohol beer -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Douglas Ellison wrote: > I dont hotlap much either - but you're contradicting yourself here. What is > hot-lapping if not a man and a car racing against the track? That is the whole point that Tom seems to miss. Even when in a 40+ car field, racing is supposed to be you & your machine vs. the track. I've always learned you race the track, not the other racers per se. And yes, hotlapping is indeed racing. You are racing the clock. :-) -- Fester N4Rank +47.8870 http://www.deadlineracers.de/

>"Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote > Well Thom, I know exactly what I'm talking about. Racing is racing,whether > it be Nascar, DIRT, Formula One, CART, RC cars, Slot cars, or Sim racing[...] [...] or even hotlapping! (-: �Mike Grandy -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Sadly Mike this is a point that we will never agree. I love Sim "Racing" but do I get feelings and sensations of "real-life" racing? No! You know it as well as I do! So whatever you are trying to sell I am not buying. Actually I question this entire thread? Does this mean we cant use the words "hot-lapping & racing" now? Why? Every game-sim' you have stated are great games & basically I like them all but they are on a 2D screen and without any "real-life" [unless you toss FF in here & this is 'arguable' too.] sensations. "This is rec.=recreation. autos.=obviously autos but we do go into other type vehicles... simulators=to simulate, making the illusion of or fake apon." It doesnt take an 10yr/old to figure this out.. Finally it is *All* Subjective and always will be when you perceive within "your life" verses mine or any other individual here. So this could go reduntantly on & on with no definative conclusion. Bottom line: You feel your way as I feel mine. Cheers Thom_j. :) "Mike Grandy" wrote: | Well Thom, I know exactly what I'm talking about. Racing is racing,whether | it be Nascar, DIRT, Formula One, CART, RC cars, Slot cars, or Sim racing.It

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| seems it is you that doesn't know what real life means. | | | Mike Grandy | Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team | 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale | | "Thom j." wrote: | "O" Come on Mike G, your trollng now! | "Real life" constitutes your ass in a real race car or any motorsport race | vehicle! So dont play "I dont know what you mean?" Damm! | Yes it **is** real competition in a PC sim but thats all it is a PC sim!! | I've | put 1000 of laps on many tracks on the eastcoast & mid-west so I know | the difference between being there in "Real Life" & not as with a PC. If | you do not you have a "reality" problem.. PCs are just an illusion & they | are great but not real. So dont even go here about injury crap etc as it

is

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| not a factor!! You know this as well as I do "If you really have raced!" | The only {and I mean "only"} point I made was the words are used in | these "Sim-Games" 'i.e. PB, Racing, Qualify etc meaning these are only | words. No more, No less! Fact! | "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | news:aPtf7.300869$[email hidden]... | Thom, what exactly constitutes real life racing. This is my real life and | when i'm sitting behind my computer racing it appears to be real | competition. I've raced in real life and raced in simulations and the only | real difference I see is that I can't get injured and it costs alot less. | The competition is alot stiffer than it was in real life also. I guess I | don't quite understand your idea of it not being real simply because it is | on a computer. | | | Mike Grandy | Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team | 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale | | | | | | | "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message | news:Sasf7.114720$[email hidden]... | Now a response: | Sorry Tom this time I really *don't agree* with your comments! This | is "rec.autos.simulators" and in many of the "sim-games" it will state, | Qualify, PB, Racing, and much more! Of course this *isnt* "real life" | racing and anyone that thinks this is, are diluted! | So no matter what word or words that are used here it still *is* and | always will be "rec.autos.simulators" here. Bottom line: to me Tom, | Your taking words & dissecting them when they do not need to be! | This newsgroup is just that a newsgroup for 'rec.sim'ers' if you will | no more, no less. -Thom_j. | | "Tom Pabst" wrote: | | So, please....could you guys "hot-lap" all you want...but just stop | talking | | about it as if it was racing? Please? | | | | Regards, | | | | Tom Pabst | | | | | | | --- | Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. | Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). | Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001 | |

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

makes sense to me UF :) "Uncle Fester" wrote:

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| That is the whole point that Tom seems to miss. Even when in a 40+ car | field, racing is supposed to be you & your machine vs. the track. I've | always learned you race the track, not the other racers per se. | | And yes, hotlapping is indeed racing. You are racing the clock. :-) | -- | Fester | | N4Rank +47.8870 | http://www.deadlineracers.de/

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

Why not?? Seriously Frank. Just because you don't see the usefullness or value of doing so, does not mean its a viable possibility for others to pursue. No one is saying you or anyone has to participate in it at that level. Mike simply asked what would it take and quite "frankly" (ouch), I don't have that answer. =) -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450 http://www.Husted.cc "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Y%zf7.56951$[email hidden]... > >"Michael Barlow" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Hey Scott! Long time no see :-) bummer you didn't have anything to > add > > to the post, it would be interesting to find out what everyone thinks it > > would take to make SimRacing a Sport worthy of TV, or Radio, or ....et.. > > > Just also wanted to say "Hey there Mike" ;-) > > The thing is, WHY is it necessary to make it a sport worthy of the media? > It's not important. For many it's just the capitalist attraction of money > that TV or any other kind of media would bring to the "sport". We already > have the Internet as a form of communication to back us up, why go to > anything more? > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.ymenard.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

Holy hell.. I'm all confused! <G> Damn.. I have to go to the mall and buy a present. I actually have to go up to Elmira next weekend for my nephew/god son's 2nd birthday party on Sunday! I need to make better use of this day-timer! Worse yet... I have the damn events on the calendar at PowerSimsMag.com and I still don't know when they are! LOLOL -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450 http://www.Husted.cc "Mike Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0qzf7.305528$[email hidden]... > Ramsden , trouble......never happen. The Albany LAN is August31, Sept 1,2. > Come on up on saturday if you can, that willl be the best day topped off > with the "Daytona Boogie" in memory of DE with prizes and trophies. Should > be a live feed to Kelsey Irish Pub along with a live broadcast by > WGNA(capital districts biggest country radio station) in the lobby of the > Crowne Plaza. Open to the public with Budweiser specials. > > > Mike Grandy > Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team > 3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale > > > > > >

You're so far behind you think you're ahead!! ;) -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450 http://www.Husted.cc

Using a sim to learn a track and using it to hone your driving skills or learn about setups are totally different IMHO. I'm slowly making my way through "Tune to Win" by Carrol Smith. Without GPL and N4, learning about how to setup a car would be very difficult. If I was lucky enough to race real cars I'd want my pitcrew to be able to drive a few decent hotlaps in a sim. Yes I said hotlaps :) They're just setting up the car, doesn't matter if they can pass somebody. "Pierre Robitaille" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Hasn't this already happened? JV got pole position his first time > out at Spa in '96, which he attributed partly to learning the track > successfully with a computer game (GP2).

Hi Tom, hotlappers have a natural advantage in that their results are visible. No matter how many races you win in your league or on WON or VROC, you'll only be known to a small portion of the online racing community. While hotlap sites publish a hotlappers peformance worldwide. There's not much that can be done about it. Anyway, I don't think the people need to be educated. To each their own, I guess. As for real racers watching us, I don't really care what they think as long as I am having fun. In which way do you feel it's important what a Schumacher thinks about sim racing? Are you worried that it might hurt our hobby in any way if MS and his likes get a wrong impression about sim racing? Achim

"Joachim Trensz" wrote...

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> <snip> > As for real racers watching us, I don't really care what > they think as long as I am having fun. In which way do you > feel it's important what a Schumacher thinks about sim > racing? Are you worried that it might hurt our hobby in any > way if MS and his likes get a wrong impression about sim > racing?

Good point... we're self-sufficient at the moment and will be for the foreseeable future (the net will continue to improve so things, as they say, can only get better), so indeed, while I don't enjoy being looked down upon, who cares? -I'm a bush league simracer anyway. Jan. =---

"Scott B. Husted" wrote: > > You're so far behind you think you're ahead!! ;) ROFL, shut up Scott Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:Eopf7.11334$[email hidden]: > <big snip> I agree with some of your points and disagree with others, but I am too lazy to comment each of them, so right to constructive part. You probably want to establish GPL (or any other game) Racing Rank. While GPL Rank provides simple measurement of ones ability to drive alone on the track in unlimited practice session, it does not measure ability to compete with other drivers in the race conditions. Chess, bridge, go and many other games have ranking systems based on ones performance against other competitors. Here's the basic idea for racing. Each driver has its own rating. Each car is rated too. Drivers rating in the race is a combination of his own rating and the rating of the car he drives. Average of the ranks of participating (driver,car) pairs is the rank of the race. Each driver is expected to achieve certain result in the race (drivers with highest ranks are expected to be top finishers while for drivers with lower ranks finish in the middle will be a good result) proportional to his rank. After the race, those who got better results than expected get increase in the rank, those who did not have their rank reduced. Increment/decrement will also depend on the race duration (and probably race status). Total of the participating drivers after the race will stay the same. To implement this you will need to setup a ranking server that will accept results from GPL servers and then advertise your project to make race hosts to submit results. Those races that count toward the rank will be marked as 'ranked' (as opposite to 'non-ranked'). Finally, commercialisation of online racing may bring it to the competition between programmers rather than competiion between drivers much sooner than it is feared in real F1. Just think about how are you going to protect against those who run some kind of software, feeding an input instead of race controller? Alex (alexti)

;) How's the housing arrangements coming along? Making any progress? -- Scott B. Husted ICQ# 4395450 http://www.Husted.cc "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > "Scott B. Husted" wrote: > > > > You're so far behind you think you're ahead!! ;) > > ROFL, shut up Scott > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ > > * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * > "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

"Scott B. Husted" wrote: > > ;) > > How's the housing arrangements coming along? Making any progress? Nope, housing prices over here are silly, so I'm going to take my time and see if I can make a good deal on an app somewhere, I've got a roof over my head at least :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

In article <[email hidden]>, John <[email hidden]> writes: >Maybe what we need is something akin to the N4 community's racereaper, >but for GPL. Racereaper accepts race results and puts them into a >database in order to acrue statistical information. It would be up to >the server owner to submit these results to the reaper server, but then >EVERYBODY could see how they stack up against everyone else in a more >authentic racing situation. Racereaper? Never heard of it... Do the server owners have to send the results in? >I'm actually quite surprised that VROC doesn't already do this since >it's a simple matter to harvest race results from servers and create a >statistical database. If I understand you correctly, someone would have to send all the results to some central database, right? That sounds like a lot of work(on either end<g>). Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, John > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Maybe what we need is something akin to the N4 community's racereaper, > >but for GPL. Racereaper accepts race results and puts them into a > >database in order to acrue statistical information. It would be up to > >the server owner to submit these results to the reaper server, but then > >EVERYBODY could see how they stack up against everyone else in a more > >authentic racing situation. > > Racereaper? Never heard of it... Do the server owners have to send the > results in?

It's a N4 thing (www.raceserver.net).

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> >I'm actually quite surprised that VROC doesn't already do this since > >it's a simple matter to harvest race results from servers and create a > >statistical database. > > If I understand you correctly, someone would have to send all the results to > some central database, right? That sounds like a lot of work(on either > end<g>).

Anything that is worth having is worth working hard to achieve. It's really a simple thing and can be setup with a batch file on the GPL server end to dump results to a central (remote) database. The central database could not live on a "free" web space because of the limitations on software that can be run, or because of possibly high traffic loads. Other than that, it shouldn't/wouldn't be a problem. I don't think it will replace GPL Rank, but it could be a great way to see who can race well against human opponents. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

But I can race against a bunch of 10 year olds and win every time ... well ... at least top 3 :-) It is very difficult to gauge the talent in a race unless it is somehow co-ordinated with a rating system and I don't mean GPLRank. I agree that being a hot lapper does not instantly give you race craft. I do agree in a global series 'somehow' and I have pondered the idea many times but the ONLY way it can be done is with sponsorship and co-operation. That takes time and money and I have neither but I welcome any input from anyone to get it under way. Rob Gerwald Advantage 1 Steering Wheels John Simmons <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > In article <[email hidden]>, John > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > >Maybe what we need is something akin to the N4 community's racereaper, > > >but for GPL. Racereaper accepts race results and puts them into a > > >database in order to acrue statistical information. It would be up to > > >the server owner to submit these results to the reaper server, but then > > >EVERYBODY could see how they stack up against everyone else in a more > > >authentic racing situation. > > > > Racereaper? Never heard of it... Do the server owners have to send the > > results in? > > It's a N4 thing (www.raceserver.net). > > > >I'm actually quite surprised that VROC doesn't already do this since > > >it's a simple matter to harvest race results from servers and create a > > >statistical database. > > > > If I understand you correctly, someone would have to send all the

results to

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> > some central database, right? That sounds like a lot of work(on either > > end<g>). > > Anything that is worth having is worth working hard to achieve. It's > really a simple thing and can be setup with a batch file on the GPL > server end to dump results to a central (remote) database. The central > database could not live on a "free" web space because of the limitations > on software that can be run, or because of possibly high traffic loads. > Other than that, it shouldn't/wouldn't be a problem. > > I don't think it will replace GPL Rank, but it could be a great way to > see who can race well against human opponents. > > -- > ========================================================= > Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" > http://www.paddedwall.org/john > > DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > > DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 (in development) > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 > > Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > =========================================================

"DAVID J ROBINSON" <[email hidden]> writes: > Tom, > > Autocrossing and hotlapping and a race qualifying run are very similar. In > all three you are looking to extract the maximum for car and driver for one > lap. not for race qualifying, for sure. you're trying to get the maximum out of the car and driver, _without_crashing_. big difference. not so in a simulator, of course, which is why we should have someone bash our heads in with baseball bat when we crash. -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 silence is FOO!

Well, a rating system could be created, but I think just seeing stats should be indicative of a driver's ability (or how lucky he is at the start - grin). In article <VMHf7.130297$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> But I can race against a bunch of 10 year olds and win every time ... well > ... at least top 3 :-) > It is very difficult to gauge the talent in a race unless it is somehow > co-ordinated with a rating system and I don't mean GPLRank. I agree that > being a hot lapper does not instantly give you race craft. > > I do agree in a global series 'somehow' and I have pondered the idea many > times but the ONLY way it can be done is with sponsorship and co-operation. > That takes time and money and I have neither but I welcome any input from > anyone to get it under way. > > Rob Gerwald > Advantage 1 Steering Wheels > > > John Simmons <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <[email hidden]>, > > [email hidden] says... > > > In article <[email hidden]>, John > > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > > > >Maybe what we need is something akin to the N4 community's racereaper, > > > >but for GPL. Racereaper accepts race results and puts them into a > > > >database in order to acrue statistical information. It would be up to > > > >the server owner to submit these results to the reaper server, but then > > > >EVERYBODY could see how they stack up against everyone else in a more > > > >authentic racing situation. > > > > > > Racereaper? Never heard of it... Do the server owners have to send the > > > results in? > > > > It's a N4 thing (www.raceserver.net). > > > > > >I'm actually quite surprised that VROC doesn't already do this since > > > >it's a simple matter to harvest race results from servers and create a > > > >statistical database. > > > > > > If I understand you correctly, someone would have to send all the > results to > > > some central database, right? That sounds like a lot of work(on either > > > end<g>). > > > > Anything that is worth having is worth working hard to achieve. It's > > really a simple thing and can be setup with a batch file on the GPL > > server end to dump results to a central (remote) database. The central > > database could not live on a "free" web space because of the limitations > > on software that can be run, or because of possibly high traffic loads. > > Other than that, it shouldn't/wouldn't be a problem. > > > > I don't think it will replace GPL Rank, but it could be a great way to > > see who can race well against human opponents. > >

-- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

In article <[email hidden]>, Gunnar Horrigmo <[email hidden]> writes:

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>"DAVID J ROBINSON" <[email hidden]> writes: > >> Tom, >> >> Autocrossing and hotlapping and a race qualifying run are very similar. In >> all three you are looking to extract the maximum for car and driver for one >> lap. > >not for race qualifying, for sure. you're trying to get the maximum >out of the car and driver, _without_crashing_. big difference.

I'm trying to get the maximum out of the car without crashing - hotlapping, practice, qualifying, racing. Does everyone else do it differently? Why would you want to crash? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, John Simmons <[email hidden]> writes: >Anything that is worth having is worth working hard to achieve. It's >really a simple thing and can be setup with a batch file on the GPL >server end to dump results to a central (remote) database. The central >database could not live on a "free" web space because of the limitations >on software that can be run, or because of possibly high traffic loads. >Other than that, it shouldn't/wouldn't be a problem. Well, I'd load it(the batch file to dump results) on *my* servers, but I couldn't WRITE the app. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <VMHf7.130297$[email hidden]>, "Rob" <[email hidden]> writes: >But I can race against a bunch of 10 year olds and win every time ... well >... at least top 3 :-) >It is very difficult to gauge the talent in a race unless it is somehow >co-ordinated with a rating system and I don't mean GPLRank. I agree that >being a hot lapper does not instantly give you race craft. I wondered the same thing. Your outcome in races is dependent on the competition. Your outcome in practice or hotlapping is dependent on YOU. Logically, which provides a better gauge of relative skill? Tom, even you should understand that... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP> >not for race qualifying, for sure. you're trying to get the maximum > >out of the car and driver, _without_crashing_. big difference. > > I'm trying to get the maximum out of the car without crashing -hotlapping, > practice, qualifying, racing. Does everyone else do it differently? Whywould > you want to crash? > > Eldred I think what he is referring to is driving over and beyond the knife-edge of car control to gain that last fraction of a second. When you DO that, a crash is often the result, but when you survive that derring driving, you get the hotlap result. It might be interesting to compare the gplranks of the fast guys in racing condiditons. I wonder how many folks have set their best times in training rather than a racing mode. So you are NOT purposely trying to crash the car, but if you don't crash then, at least in hotlapper mode, you aren't trying hard enough...:) dave henrie > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beatsyou > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Hi Tom, even though this reply isn't as long as the original post, don't worry, I've read it all. :) I must say I agree with your general premise. Simulated racing is, of all forms of PC simulations, let alone games, the closest in terms of mimicking any real world activity. In a sense, it is not so much a simulation, as it is becoming a virtualization, as not only a simulation of different aspects is taking place, but all of this needs to gel together to create a convincing and immersive environment. On the other hand, while you indeed are a man with a vision, that vision may be a bit premature at this point. The racing simulations of today are still marketed as games, and, while you do say that your opinion shouldn't prevent people from enjoying them the way they do, I don't think you should alienate people who happen to enjoy it, at least not at this point yet. Hotlapping is one of the oldest sim racing activities predating the web-based racing, and it does bring the community closer together. No doubt will this community shift to a higher level of racing once that will become more mainstream. Cutting them off at this point would be a mistake. There will be titles in the future that will not be marketed as games. At that point, I believe the mindset of people enjoying those titles will change as well, and your vision will come about almost naturally, maybe with the help of a push from people like you. Preparing people for this inevitable evolution step is indeed a good thing to do, but perhaps in a softer way you have put forward. For me, personally, the point is moot anyway. I've always set my best GPL laps in VROC races :). Greetings, and keep the discussion going, -Gregor Tom Pabst wrote: <snipped a very relevant post>

Hi Eldred, > Does everyone else do it differently? IMO, racing is more complex than hotlapping. I have high respect for the achievements of the world's top hotlappers, but doesn't racing require a lot more than just being able to drive fast laps? Achim "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, Gunnar Horrigmo<[email hidden]>

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> writes: > > >"DAVID J ROBINSON" <[email hidden]> writes: > > > >> Tom, > >> > >> Autocrossing and hotlapping and a race qualifying run are very similar.

In > >> all three you are looking to extract the maximum for car and driver forone > >> lap. > > > >not for race qualifying, for sure. you're trying to get the maximum > >out of the car and driver, _without_crashing_. big difference. > > I'm trying to get the maximum out of the car without crashing -hotlapping, > practice, qualifying, racing. Does everyone else do it differently? Whywould

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> you want to crash? > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Hi Gregor, do you really think there is a contradiction between game and sport? Drivers that master historical cars in a computer simulation, might care for the historical meaning of the word sport: sport is shortened from disport which meant "amusement", and disport goes back, via the middle french "desporter" to the latin: deportare which meant nothing else but: to behave, to amuse. So saying: for me it is a game, and meaning: i want to have fun while sharing a passion with other like-minded people and while competing against each other in a fair way is the attitude of a true sportsman. That you have a playful attitude towards it adds to the fun, but doesn�t take off anything from its value. Don�t forget: it is still Olympic GAMES. And the chatrooms, the news servers, the leagues races all promote these values of people from various backgrounds and different cultures coming together to have fun. From this, it is clear that this can be fun and entertainment to many other people that atm do not know about our sport. The question is how can this be achieved, and I think Greger has made a very good point in his mail, so: how can this be achieved without necessarily giving up the community aspect that we have atm in gpl leagues and within N4 leagues with a serious approach? Wouldn�t it need way more than just a database where rather sooner than later the data are prone to be of questionable value? What framework would be necessary, and what other measures would be required to make the public aware of the sport sim racing and attend these events, or take part in greater number in some way or another? Cheers, Christoph http://www.MastersofGPL.org Gregor Veble wrote:

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> Hi Tom, > > even though this reply isn't as long as the original post, don't worry, > I've read it all. :) > > I must say I agree with your general premise. Simulated racing is, of > all forms of PC simulations, let alone games, the closest in terms of > mimicking any real world activity. In a sense, it is not so much a > simulation, as it is becoming a virtualization, as not only a simulation > of different aspects is taking place, but all of this needs to gel > together to create a convincing and immersive environment. > > On the other hand, while you indeed are a man with a vision, that vision > may be a bit premature at this point. The racing simulations of today > are still marketed as games, and, while you do say that your opinion > shouldn't prevent people from enjoying them the way they do, I don't > think you should alienate people who happen to enjoy it, at least not at > this point yet. Hotlapping is one of the oldest sim racing activities > predating the web-based racing, and it does bring the community closer > together. No doubt will this community shift to a higher level of racing > once that will become more mainstream. Cutting them off at this point > would be a mistake. > > There will be titles in the future that will not be marketed as games. > At that point, I believe the mindset of people enjoying those titles > will change as well, and your vision will come about almost naturally, > maybe with the help of a push from people like you. Preparing people for > this inevitable evolution step is indeed a good thing to do, but perhaps > in a softer way you have put forward. > > For me, personally, the point is moot anyway. I've always set my best > GPL laps in VROC races :). > > Greetings, and keep the discussion going, > > -Gregor > > Tom Pabst wrote: > > <snipped a very relevant post>

Christoph Schirmer wrote: > Wouldn´t it need way more than just a database where rather sooner than > later the data are prone to be of questionable value? Yes it would. IMO we would need all the top leagues to unite into a super league, made up of divisions. A mammoth undertaking, but it's the ONLY way to produce meaningful data. Gerry

"Gerry Aitken" wrote Yes it would. IMO we would need all the top leagues to unite into a super league, made up of divisions. A mammoth undertaking, but it's the ONLY way to produce meaningful data. Gerry Kinda like Jack Rambo's "Nail That Track" World series vision of 1999? Which included the formation of a world sim racing body, masterminding a world league table. Shame the plan didn't include Jack getting any sleep running races in America, Australia and Europe, which led to its demise before the team got formed. With the work that volunteers put in to running leagues the co-ordination of all these efforts may not be such a mammoth task as back then. So perhaps NTT was just ahead of its time. Food for thought... Tony

Joachim Trensz wrote: > > IMO, racing is more complex than hotlapping. I have high respect for the > achievements of the world's top hotlappers, but doesn't racing require a lot > more than just being able to drive fast laps? Yes it does. But look at it this way... if you cannot go fast under optimum conditions (alone, clear track) you surely won't go fast in a full field of other racers. Not that you can turn the logic around, mind you. A fast hotlapper is not necessarily a good racer in a pack. But if you're slow when you're *alone*... -- Fester

Gregor Veble <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > this point yet. Hotlapping is one of the oldest sim racingactivities > predating the web-based racing, and it does bring the communitycloser > together. No doubt will this community shift to a higher level ofracing > once that will become more mainstream. Cutting them off at thispoint > would be a mistake. ... and, personally, I hotlap as a way of developing my car-control skills before I start racing so that I'm not a danger to others (online) or don't find it utterly frustrating (against AI). Plus it provides a measure of my performance / development. Hopefully my RC racing will already have equipped me with a modicum of racecraft - but I'm not yet sure I've learnt to drive adequately! Jonny

In article <9loq3j$aeico$[email hidden]>, "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Hi Eldred, > >> Does everyone else do it differently? > >IMO, racing is more complex than hotlapping. I have high respect for the >achievements of the world's top hotlappers, but doesn't racing require a lot >more than just being able to drive fast laps? > >Achim

Sure, racing requires more - dealing with traffic, strategy, the pressure of someone on your gearbox. The post I was responding to implied that hotlapping is the only time when you're trying to get the most out of your car without crashing. I disagree with that. Like I said, I'm *always* trying to get the most out of my car without crashing. The fact that *my* most is less than someone else's doesn't change that. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Gunnar, Since I autocross on a regular basis and well have not total a car autocrossing I would say its without crashing. My GPL and N4 driving is also the same tack. When running practise or qualifying runs I work on getting the absolute most out of the car and myself for a given lap. During a race in GPL I usually run as hard as I can with cold tires and when they are up to the task I start putting down hard laps to either push the leader or build up a lead, where I then manage the margin to win the race. Fangio siad it rather perfectly, Trying to win at the slowest absolute pace you can. In N4 I will go very hard the first lap if I have the lead to build up some margin and then try to manage the lead thru the end of the race. You have to worry about tires in N4 more then GPL so its a concern there. If I am not leading I am trying to fill the persons mirrors I am behind and find his weak spot to execute the pass then work on building up distance between him and me, while trying not to use up the tires. Being able to get the maximum out of the car from the start is important in race caft since if you do not have to deal with someone on your gearbox or infront of you the race just goes easier. I am all for easy since in autocrossing and playing games I am out to do a job, win the race if possible. The easier I can do that, the better. Dave Gunnar Horrigmo <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "DAVID J ROBINSON" <[email hidden]> writes: > > > Tom, > > > > Autocrossing and hotlapping and a race qualifying run are very similar.In > > all three you are looking to extract the maximum for car and driver forone

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> > lap. > > not for race qualifying, for sure. you're trying to get the maximum > out of the car and driver, _without_crashing_. big difference. > > not so in a simulator, of course, which is why we should have someone > bash our heads in with baseball bat when we crash. > > > -- > Gunnar > #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 > silence is FOO!

Gregor, Very well thought out and written! Thank you -Thom_j. "Gregor Veble" wrote:

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| Hi Tom, | | even though this reply isn't as long as the original post, don't worry, | I've read it all. :) | | I must say I agree with your general premise. Simulated racing is, of | all forms of PC simulations, let alone games, the closest in terms of | mimicking any real world activity. In a sense, it is not so much a | simulation, as it is becoming a virtualization, as not only a simulation | of different aspects is taking place, but all of this needs to gel | together to create a convincing and immersive environment. | | On the other hand, while you indeed are a man with a vision, that vision | may be a bit premature at this point. The racing simulations of today | are still marketed as games, and, while you do say that your opinion | shouldn't prevent people from enjoying them the way they do, I don't | think you should alienate people who happen to enjoy it, at least not at | this point yet. Hotlapping is one of the oldest sim racing activities | predating the web-based racing, and it does bring the community closer | together. No doubt will this community shift to a higher level of racing | once that will become more mainstream. Cutting them off at this point | would be a mistake. | | There will be titles in the future that will not be marketed as games. | At that point, I believe the mindset of people enjoying those titles | will change as well, and your vision will come about almost naturally, | maybe with the help of a push from people like you. Preparing people for | this inevitable evolution step is indeed a good thing to do, but perhaps | in a softer way you have put forward. | | For me, personally, the point is moot anyway. I've always set my best | GPL laps in VROC races :). | | Greetings, and keep the discussion going, | | -Gregor | | Tom Pabst wrote: | | <snipped a very relevant post> |

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 05:03:49 GMT, "Rob" <[email hidden]> wrote: >But I can race against a bunch of 10 year olds and win every time ... well >... at least top 3 :-) >It is very difficult to gauge the talent in a race unless it is somehow >co-ordinated with a rating system and I don't mean GPLRank. I agree that >being a hot lapper does not instantly give you race craft. >Spot on there, you do need a rating system with such things. I think GPLRank would fit the bill, you could list the number of race wins in different GPLRank categories, ie open, -50 to -25, -25 to 0, maybe +/-10 of St Eldred's Cup, etc. The ppl with low GPLRank would be able to show their racecraft against drivers of a similar speed. Rafe Mc

In article <Eopf7.11334$[email hidden]>, Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> writes >.....So I'm going to try to keep this as short as I can (and it will >probably still be too long). Sorry. > <big snip, what happened to that promise Tom? :)>

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>2. Real world racing does not engage in any activity that even resembles >"hot-lapping" or keeps any records or "lists" that would resemble the >GPLRank system list of drivers. Nobody in real-world racing could afford to >crash their cars....what....several hundred times (some of you say several >thousand times).....in order to pull off some totally lucky "flyer lap" >...and then post it somewhere so they can be thought of as an "excellent >race driver." Of course, nobody in real-world racing would live through >such an activity, either. >

That's one major assumption there don't you think? That somehow, we have not got any better at keeping the car on the track, just lucky. Of course, whilst 'hot-lapping' there is more of a tendency to lose the car when driving that close to the edge so to speak, but in my own experience, with the extra speed has also developed a better understanding of how to handle the car (even at these higher speeds) that I didn't have when I was struggling around with what would have been a GPLrank on the + side. Though, when GPLrank first appeared I was already at a good enough level to be well into the negatives, so I'm talking hypothetically there. And, if that is the case for myself, I would also expect it to be the same for many others who's ranking is well under the zero mark. We have got there because we know what to expect and how to react in the most appropriate way in order to keep the car going as fast as possible. Do you really believe that to get as quick as some of the guys have become that they are just riding their luck, not really any more skilled in the ability to put that virtual car where they want, when they want? That's just a tiny bit insulting to many who have dedicated a hell of a lot of time to honing those skills down to the nth degree don't you think?

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>3. The closest thing I can attribute in real-world racing to something that >maybe some of the "hot-lappers" have confused to be similar to what they >do.....and call it racing......is maybe "qualifying" or....."fastest race >lap"......or maybe even "track record holder." But, let's be clear about >this. No race driver I know of, made it to the "hall of fame" of public >opinion (or the real one) in racing because they had a lot of >races.....where they had the "fastest lap" in that race. They don't keep >that score in real-world racing. I don't think anyone made it for having >the most "track records" either. I know they don't put you in the hall of >fame for having been on the most poles.....heck, no one can even >remember >who the pole sitter was....come Monday morning...usually (unless of course >you also win the race on Sunday). The only thing they put you in the "hall >of fame" for....is winning races....winning championships (based on >winning/finishing position...in races). >

Indeed, however this has become a quick and dirty way of giving a reasonable estimation of each individual's abilities at GPL whilst at the same time, from comments that I have read, helped boost the GPL community at the same time, so I see no need to discontinue with it for the forseeable future. Not everyone has the opportunity to race online in leagues and so their only way of guaging themselves with others is by use of GPLrank. I am not in a league, but I do race casually online as well as offline, though I doubt continually posting about my last intermediate short offline race from the back of a full field to win against the AI has the same immediacy as a simple scoring system. Until you get around that GPLrank remains for me. <Lots more snippage> When it comes down to it, sim racing gives us one major advantage at the moment, and that is the fact that we can drive as hard as we like without impunity or fear of injury - unless you've got an Act Labs steering wheel with FF on and the settings too high, perhaps :) - and so, until a sim comes out where bad driving and crashing is penalised in some manner other than putting you out of a race or spoiling a fast lap, I have no qualms about trying every which way I can in order to determine the quickest way around each and every circuit, even if that is going to mean me going off a lot more often than if I was to drive a real car no doubt. That doesn't mean however that, if I needed to, I and many, many other fast drivers couldn't keep the car on the track at speeds pretty near what we are capable of whilst 'hot-lapping'. So let's not denegrate this enjoyable part of sim racing just because it doesn't match up to the 'real' world. -- Peter Ives Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

In article <[email hidden]>,

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>Maybe what we need is something akin to the N4 community's racereaper, >but for GPL. Racereaper accepts race results and puts them into a >database in order to acrue statistical information. It would be up to >the server owner to submit these results to the reaper server, but then >EVERYBODY could see how they stack up against everyone else in a more >authentic racing situation. > >I'm actually quite surprised that VROC doesn't already do this since >it's a simple matter to harvest race results from servers and create a >statistical database.

Yes, that's it! Would be really nice :) This would reduce the drop out rate on all these '19 starters-3 finishers' online races. And the rank would be the right punishment for all these lap one crash-burn-disco wreckers, too. Guess, we would need to take the 'rank' of the competition into account when assigning points.. A 4th place behind 3 aliens should count more than a win in a race of backmarkers.. Calis (GPLrank -23, SCNR ;)

I think taking offence at Schumacher referring to racing sims as not relevant to real-life racing is little futile, perhaps even childish? Why do we all use racing sims? Surely because we all want to be real-life racers, but for the huge majority of us, finances, skills and age means it's only a dream. So what does a guy do? Buy a respectable sim and start dreaming. Shuey, on the other hand, happens to be the real thing (and the best of his generation at that, IMO). After seven years in F1 he's hardly going to be impressed with ANY sim, (�even' GPL). No real feedback from the car means, without a hyperstimulator or suchlike, we can only really respect his opinion as he has experience of something we can only dream of.

In article <hdyf7.12737$[email hidden]>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes: >Reminder....I'm not asking the sim community to stop hot-lapping. I fully >admit that its fun......its just not racing. It is not real-world racing, it is (maybe major?) part of sim racing. Well, I would say, that's the main difference between the real thing and the simulation: - A new car cost zero $ - everyone is invulnerable So only the simmers can afford to go for the ultimate goal: To push the car to the absolute limit (of course, approaching this limit from BOTH sides ;) Grant these two facts in real life, and I bet we would only see hotlap competitions on TV! No one would be interested in boring 2 hour races, when you can get all the action packed into a single lap. Just imagine the summary on TV: You would see the perfect lap of the winner (takes a minute or two), <insert commercials here>, some overlays with the guys a bit slower to analyse where they lost their 1/100 seconds, <insert commercials here>, and finally, some laps with incredible wrecks from guys pushing too hard. >Hot-lapping is a phenomenon of >"simulated racing" and doesn't exist anywhere else but on computers! Yes. Simulation gives the possibility to do things you cannot do in real life. Why do you try to make sim racing similar to real-world racing? In sim racing there is much more freedom! No security restrictions, no commercial influence, no politics, no environmental considerations.. Just pure racing. And if sim racing (without artificial restrictions) evolves towards hotlapping, then this is the way to go. >I would like to see this community stop setting some of these "hot-lappers" >up on pedestals of "elite drivers"....the "cream of the top" >drivers..... Hmm... if the community does this, why do you think this is a bad thing? It's better than having someone else telling us who the elite is. Or someone implementing 'rules' to make sure the 'right' person wins. Do you want to implement some rules here??? >..and start recognizing our top sim community drivers for the >races they win....and compete in.... Maybe a win in a race says nothing about the skill of this driver? There are too many random things deciding about winning an online race. You can always be lucky and get the top drivers disco'ed, wrecked by some bozos, getting hit by a warp accident or whatever. But you cannot get a clean 1:26 second lap at Monza by accident. That is measureable skill. (ok, it is a different skill from the skill you need to win a long race, but long races are boring anyway :) If I'm going to tell you that I won a pickup race at Mosport last Wednesday, so what? 17 starters? What do you know now - nothing. When I tell you, I can do a 1:27.5 lap at Silverstone, you can at least guess that I put in some weeks of 'work' there, that I know every kink and bump there, that I have a nice setup fitting my driving style... >The fact is...."hot-lapping" is easy to report the statistics for........and >compare people with (meaningless) numbers mistakenly thought of as >indicative of one's racing skills. That GPLRank web page is no different >than the "High Score" boxes on the top of every Arcade machine I've ever >seen! Its exactly the same thing! Is that a bad thing? "No." Of course, it isn't. btw: It is the same as the season point standing of the F1, or world cup points (or whatever you call it) of any other sport.. These numbers are as meaningless as anything else. >...the GPLRank websites.. <snip> ..but not having anything >to do with racing as the real-world does it. Yes, sim racing is different from real world racing. You got it ;) But hotlapping is only one part of GPL sim racing. There are league races, pickup races, fantasy events like the land speed record attempts, ... >I have no problem with that. But, when a >GPLWrecker/Ranker.....wants to tout himself as a race car driver......then >I'm going to object to that....because he is hurting my efforts to get >real-world racing to stop thinking that all we are doing is playing games on >our computers! What else are we doing? What is the difference between playing computer games, playing simulation games, playing a racing sim, driving a racing sim? When I put 30 hours per week into playing PacMan, I'm still playing a computer game. After some years of doing so, it will still be a computer game. Of course, I'll be able to play PacMan on a rather professional level and only a few others will be able to compete. If you watch me for 5 minutes, you probably will think: just another guy playing PacMan. You need to watch for the 6 hours I get away without losing a single life - then you will think: Wohoo, what a performance! Calis BTW: Whenever I am in a 19starter/3finisher race, I'm one of the finisher :)

In article <Eopf7.11334$[email hidden]>, >So, for sake of simplicity......I would like to divide all the members of >this community into two general groups: Serious sim racing drivers and >game-playing sim racing drivers. Ok, so we have these guys who occasionally jump into online races and pretend to do the real thing on one side and the guys who put in 4 hours per day/7 days a week for 2 months just to get their Mosport laptime from 1:20.96 down to 1:20.88 on the other side. Let me guess whom you are going to call the serious sim racing drivers? Calis

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (EldredP) writes: >I'm trying to get the maximum out of the car without crashing - hotlapping, >practice, qualifying, racing. Does everyone else do it differently? Why would >you want to crash? Yeah, now I know why you dont improve as fast ;) At least I use the simulator benefit of being invulnerable to approach the limit from both sides. For me, it is not going into a turn carefully, then a bit faster, a bit faster, a little bit faster... until I doubt I can go another little bit faster. I prefer a kind of binary search from both sides. Going into a turn carefully - too slow. ok. Going into it carelessly - oops, too fast. A bit slower - ok, works. A bit faster - oops, too fast. A little bit slower - ok. A very little bit faster - perfekt. Of course, in real life I would try to avoid these 'oops'-moments :) Calis

Well said Peter... Jan. =--- PS.: BTW Tom, Peter would be another one of those on that 10 good racers list. Peter Ives wrote...

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> <snip> I have no qualms about trying every which way I can > in order to determine the quickest way around each and every > circuit, even if that is going to mean me going off a lot more > often than if I was to drive a real car no doubt. That doesn't > mean however that, if I needed to, I and many, many other fast > drivers couldn't keep the car on the track at speeds pretty near > what we are capable of whilst 'hot-lapping'.

Hi Fester, > But if you're slow when you're *alone*... <g> ok, I got it :-) Achim

Hi Eldred, I understand your point, and agree. Achim "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <9loq3j$aeico$[email hidden]>, "Joachim Trensz" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Hi Eldred, > > > >> Does everyone else do it differently? > > > >IMO, racing is more complex than hotlapping. I have high respect for the > >achievements of the world's top hotlappers, but doesn't racing require a

lot > >more than just being able to drive fast laps? > > > >Achim > > Sure, racing requires more - dealing with traffic, strategy, the pressureof > someone on your gearbox. The post I was responding to implied thathotlapping > is the only time when you're trying to get the most out of your carwithout > crashing. I disagree with that. Like I said, I'm *always* trying to getthe

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> most out of my car without crashing. The fact that *my* most is less than > someone else's doesn't change that. > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Herbet? Have you been to Tom Pabst's writing school? Seems so? :) | "Tom Pabst" writes: | >Reminder....I'm not asking the sim community to stop hot-lapping. Ifully | >admit that its fun......its just not racing. "Herbert Pohlai" wrote:

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| It is not real-world racing, it is (maybe major?) part of sim racing. | | Well, I would say, that's the main difference between the real thing | and the simulation: | | - A new car cost zero $ | - everyone is invulnerable | | So only the simmers can afford to go for the ultimate goal: | To push the car to the absolute limit (of course, approaching this | limit from BOTH sides ;) | | Grant these two facts in real life, and I bet we would only see | hotlap competitions on TV! | No one would be interested in boring 2 hour races, when you can | get all the action packed into a single lap. | | Just imagine the summary on TV: You would see the perfect lap | of the winner (takes a minute or two), <insert commercials here>, | some overlays with the guys a bit slower to analyse where they lost | their 1/100 seconds, <insert commercials here>, | and finally, some laps with incredible wrecks from guys pushing too hard. | | >Hot-lapping is a phenomenon of | >"simulated racing" and doesn't exist anywhere else but on computers! | | Yes. Simulation gives the possibility to do things you cannot do | in real life. | | Why do you try to make sim racing similar to real-world racing? | | In sim racing there is much more freedom! No security restrictions, | no commercial influence, no politics, no environmental considerations.. | | Just pure racing. | | And if sim racing (without artificial restrictions) evolves towards | hotlapping, then this is the way to go. | | >I would like to see this community stop setting some of these

"hot-lappers"

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| >up on pedestals of "elite drivers"....the "cream of the top" | >drivers..... | | Hmm... if the community does this, why do you think this is a bad thing? | It's better than having someone else telling us who the elite is. | Or someone implementing 'rules' to make sure the 'right' person wins. | Do you want to implement some rules here??? | | >..and start recognizing our top sim community drivers for the | >races they win....and compete in.... | | Maybe a win in a race says nothing about the skill of this driver? | There are too many random things deciding about winning an online race. | You can always be lucky and get the top drivers disco'ed, wrecked by | some bozos, getting hit by a warp accident or whatever. | But you cannot get a clean 1:26 second lap at Monza by accident. That is | measureable skill. (ok, it is a different skill from the skill you need | to win a long race, but long races are boring anyway :) | | If I'm going to tell you that I won a pickup race at Mosport | last Wednesday, so what? 17 starters? What do you know now - nothing. | When I tell you, I can do a 1:27.5 lap at Silverstone, | you can at least guess that I put in some weeks of 'work' there, | that I know every kink and bump there, that I have a nice | setup fitting my driving style... | | >The fact is...."hot-lapping" is easy to report the statistics

for........and

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| >compare people with (meaningless) numbers mistakenly thought of as | >indicative of one's racing skills. That GPLRank web page is no different | >than the "High Score" boxes on the top of every Arcade machine I've ever | >seen! Its exactly the same thing! Is that a bad thing? "No." | | Of course, it isn't. btw: It is the same as the season point standing of | the F1, or world cup points (or whatever you call it) of any other sport.. | These numbers are as meaningless as anything else. | | >...the GPLRank websites.. <snip> ..but not having anything | >to do with racing as the real-world does it. | | Yes, sim racing is different from real world racing. You got it ;) | But hotlapping is only one part of GPL sim racing. There are league races, | pickup races, fantasy events like the land speed record attempts, ... | | >I have no problem with that. But, when a | >GPLWrecker/Ranker.....wants to tout himself as a race car

driver......then | >I'm going to object to that....because he is hurting my efforts to get | >real-world racing to stop thinking that all we are doing is playing gameson

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| >our computers! | | What else are we doing? | | What is the difference between playing computer games, playing | simulation games, playing a racing sim, driving a racing sim? | | When I put 30 hours per week into playing PacMan, I'm still playing | a computer game. After some years of doing so, it will still be | a computer game. Of course, I'll be able to play PacMan on a rather | professional level and only a few others will be able to compete. | | If you watch me for 5 minutes, you probably will think: just another | guy playing PacMan. You need to watch for the 6 hours I get away without | losing a single life - then you will think: Wohoo, what a performance! | | Calis | | BTW: Whenever I am in a 19starter/3finisher race, I'm one of the finisher

:) | | --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

Maybe Top 5? :) Ditto on the "Well said Peter" too.. "Jan Verschueren" wrote:

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| Well said Peter... | Jan. | =--- | PS.: BTW Tom, Peter would be another one of those on that 10 good racers | list. | | Peter Ives wrote... | > <snip> I have no qualms about trying every which way I can | > in order to determine the quickest way around each and every | > circuit, even if that is going to mean me going off a lot more | > often than if I was to drive a real car no doubt. That doesn't | > mean however that, if I needed to, I and many, many other fast | > drivers couldn't keep the car on the track at speeds pretty near | > what we are capable of whilst 'hot-lapping'. | |

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

Well Thom, If I was required to order them, it would take me too long for it to be an "on the spot" list. Jan./possibly my biggest cop-out this year. ;-) =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. "Thom j." wrote... > Maybe Top 5? :) Ditto on the "Well said Peter" too..

You're absolutely right about hotlapping. Hotlapping can only give you a measurement of a person's skill if you know exactly how many hours it took them to achieve their lap times. The quicker someone gets up to speed, the better they are. A person can learn any eye/hand coordination exercise with enough practice. I couldn't care less what someone's hotlap time is for a track if I know they've been at it for weeks, months, or even years. David G Fisher "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Eopf7.11334$[email hidden]...

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> .....So I'm going to try to keep this as short as I can (and it will > probably still be too long). Sorry. > > My reasons for making this post are based on my love of racing (real and > simulated) and a desire to see simulated racing become respected as a form > of racing where the skills of the sim driver approach, if not equal, the > skills of the real-world driver. I believe I won't get too much argument > that an enormous amount of good can come to the simulated racing

community,

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> its members (drivers), its software developers both individual and > corporate, same for the hardware developers and manufacturers, > leagues/series administrators...and so forth, if the real-world racing > community embraced the simulated racing community with something on the > order of equal stature and respect. Its no secret that I have spent the > better part of the last five years (full-time for the last three years) > trying to do my part to bridge the gap between sim racing and real racing. > So I'm not going to go into all the supporting reasons why I think we'd > benefit by being respected as racing drivers....by real-world racing

drivers > and their "community"....I kind of figure that's a given! > > I also want to state without any doubt, I totally defend the right of any > member of this community to choose to enjoy sim racing however they wishto > do so. If that means they want to treat this activity as a leisure-time, > fun, game-playing activity.....that is 100% their right to do so. That > includes the so called "wreckers" even! I would defend their right towreck > other drivers in a race with them....if that's their idea of "fun" theyare > entitled to it. They are just not entitled to wreck other drivers whodon't

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> share their sense of fun. As long as the "wreckers" all race together and > not with other more serious-minded sim drivers/participants....that's Okay > with me! > > So, for sake of simplicity......I would like to divide all the members of > this community into two general groups: Serious sim racing drivers and > game-playing sim racing drivers. Notice, I did not say "two equal > groups".......I have no idea how many members of this community, if asked

to > place themselves in one group or the other.....would be in each group. We > could say, "50/50"....but it really doesn't matter to me....it has nothing > to do with what "point" I'd like to make. Let's say, there's asubstantial > number of people in both groups....together they make up the sim racing > community I'm referring to in this post. > > So....to the point I would like to make: When someone who is engaging inan > activity of sim racing that is clearly "game playing" (like wrecking cars > instead of racing against cars)......tries to make that out to be serious > race car driving......sim race car driving to be exact.......then I amgoing > to stand up and shout "NO." Why? > > Because I'm trying to get real-racing people to look upon the activitiesof > the "serious sim drivers" in this community with some respect.....respect > because they have the same or close to the same skills as real race car > drivers. I know that, but at this point, they don't know that! And, I > can't do that if a vocal minority of "game players" in this onlinecommunity > keeps calling what they are doing "race driving".....it discreditseveryone

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> in the sim racing community when that happens. Or, should I say, it > discredits them as far as the real-world racing community is concerned. > And, that is the opposite of what I think....as do many others in this > community....would be good for sim racing. > > I'm not talking about the "wreckers"....am I. No. They are a small > minority....true. But they are not very vocal. > > I am talking about the GPL community. Not all of its members of > course......but a far too large number of them.....and a way to large

vocal > number of them. I'm also talking about a few in the N4 community.....but > its a relatively small number.....in my opinion at least. > > So, to many of you.....it might seem as if I'm attacking the GPL simracing > community.....that often referred to group of "elite" sim racers (a term > I've heard too much of lately...makes me want to throw up > sometimes).......and that's why I figured this was not going to bepopular.

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> > Well, I'm not attacking anyone. > > But I am going to ask the GPL community, some (but not all)....of its > members....to do me, and anyone else in this community that would like to > see sim racing some day become a full-fledged e-sport form of racing....a > very big favor! I don't know for sure how many others there are among you > that would like to see sim racing become a respected form of racing......I > know I can name a couple hundred.....and that's enough to ask this favor,

I > think? > > Here's the favor: Please stop referring to, in public places (like this > newsgroup, race chat rooms, VROC, etc.)....referring to "hot-lapping," or > the GPLRank - (Hot-lapping scoreboard).....as racing, race car driving or > having anything to do with racing skills. I'm not asking you to stopdoing

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> it. I'm not asking you to stop liking to do it even! I am asking you to > stop calling it "racing".....because it isn't. And, when members of the > real-world racing community see you doing this.....you discredit everyone > who is a serious sim driver in this community....and would like to bridge > the gap between themselves and the real-world race drivers. I don't think > this is an unfair "favor" to ask of you. > > I would like to make a few "points" in support of my request: > > 1. In case there is any doubt that this "game" activity of hot-lapping is > being referred to by its participants as "racing"....here's a direct quote > off a web page displaying the GPLRank list: **When players reach the

magic

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> sub zero score, they would have reached a milestone putting them in a > category of excellence in driving. A point we all strive for.** That is a > direct "cut and paste" copy from the following website: > http://www.technobyte.com.au/Advantage1/GPL/subzero.html > > 2. Real world racing does not engage in any activity that even resembles > "hot-lapping" or keeps any records or "lists" that would resemble the > GPLRank system list of drivers. Nobody in real-world racing could afford

to

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> crash their cars....what....several hundred times (some of you say several > thousand times).....in order to pull off some totally lucky "flyer lap" > ...and then post it somewhere so they can be thought of as an "excellent > race driver." Of course, nobody in real-world racing would live through > such an activity, either. > > 3. The closest thing I can attribute in real-world racing to something

that

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> maybe some of the "hot-lappers" have confused to be similar to what they > do.....and call it racing......is maybe "qualifying" or....."fastest race > lap"......or maybe even "track record holder." But, let's be clear about > this. No race driver I know of, made it to the "hall of fame" of public > opinion (or the real one) in racing because they had a lot of > races.....where they had the "fastest lap" in that race. They don't keep > that score in real-world racing. I don't think anyone made it for having > the most "track records" either. I know they don't put you in the hall of > fame for having been on the most poles.....heck, no one can even remember > who the pole sitter was....come Monday morning...usually (unless of course > you also win the race on Sunday). The only thing they put you in the

"hall > of fame" for....is winning races....winning championships (based on > winning/finishing position...in races). > > 4. I spent an hour.....maybe it should have been longer.....but Icouldn't > find a single GPL related website that listed all the GPL drivers inranking > of the number of races they've won. Or, the number of podium finishes > they've had. I have no idea who the good race car drivers are inGPL....or > what they do or where they race....and certainly not how they rank amongst > themselves. I do know however, who all the best "game playinghot-lappers" > are. That took me just a minute or two to find. Too bad, because no onein

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> real racing cares about that....I know I certainly don't. It might be > fun....but its not about racing. > > 5. In real-world racing.....there's a sub-amateur form of driving called > "autocross".....and even a professional form of it in the USA, called "Pro > Solo II" sanctioned by the SCCA. Its quite a fun activity....I've done it > several times and its exciting and challenging...and not easy to beat the > guys who do nothing else but autocrossing. For those of you that don't

know > what this is.....its racing against a clock....solo....through usually a > parking lot full of "gates" marked out by yellow or orange cones. The car > (usually they are ranked in classes) and driver who traverse the conedgates > in the shortest time.....and don't knock any cones over (they penalize you > for knocking over cones).....is declared the winner of the autocrossevent. > They have second and third places too. Sometimes, if your autocross club > has a lot of members, they can afford to give you little trophies orplaques > if you come in first, second or third. I don't think anyone in real-world > racing would confuse autocrossing with racing.....or autocross driverswith > race car drivers....although many autocross drivers have moved up toamateur > SCCA racing and then gone on to full professional racing as well. > Autocrossing would actually be a level or two above "hot-lapping"...ifthey > did hot-lapping in the real world.....because in autocrossing, you can'tcut > the corners off....go over the curbs...or go off into thegrass.....because

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> you'd knock over a cone and be penalized a second for doing that. > Autocrossing would be a lot harder than hot-lapping...but they don't have > hot-lapping so they don't think of it that way. > > 6. I have a lot of books about racing, race car driving, skills of > racing....and so forth. I looked through all of them. I couldn't find > anything in them about hot-lapping....although I could find a lot of > references to how stupid it would be to attempt to run the fastest lap > possible....when you were racing. That was even frowned upon during a > qualifying run......nobody thought running a "flyer lap"....with all the > risks that it had to go with it.....was worth winning a pole position > for...no one would even remember by Monday morning anyway. I couldn't

find > a single driver ever having been given even a little trophy or aplaque..... > for holding the track record at any race track...anywhere in the world -at > any level of racing! At least, they do give those to autocross winnersfor > being fast on parking lots! > > 7. Those same books had lots of lists of the attributes and skills that > winning race car drivers possess. Here's some of them: > ***Winning Racing Skills*** > a. The ability to help create a race car setup that's the bestfor > the conditions of the race. > b. The ability to achieve a higher number of consistent fast laps > than his/her competitors over the course of the entire race length. > c. The ability to stay focused and concentrate on each turn ofeach

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> lap.... lap after lap after lap, through the entire race without > breech of his/her concentration, or lapses in judgment. > d. The ability to spend the least attention on driving "fast" > during a race, and the most attention on tactics and strategy. > e. The ability to have mechanical empathy - manages the vehicle > platform better than his/her competitors in the same race. [One > thousand crashes per completed "hot-lap" is not having mechanical

empathy!]

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> f. The ability to expend the least amount of physical energy > during a race...a relaxed driver in a calm mental state expends less > energy, has improved endurance, concentration and the ability to > continuously determine priorities and stay focused. > > I could go on with additions to this basic list, which came from the book > "The Art Of Racing", co-authored by Don Alexander and Mark Martin. But

this > was the best example I had of a concise list of "winning race driving > skills"......it was short and to the point. Please note that"hot-lapping" > is not on this list....nor was it on any list of any of the books I looked > at tonight. I doubt it would appear on any list anywhere....about race > driving skills...at least! Kind of makes that sentence above on theGPLRank

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> website.....look pretty stupid doesn't it? Scroll back up and read it > again......now that you've read this far.....see what I mean? > > 8. Earlier this week, I had a chance to jump onto VROC one afternoon. I > didn't have time to race....because just got GPL setup on my "other race > box" a couple weeks back anyway...I'd be pretty non-competitive without > having run GPL for about 18 months or so. But, I like talking racing with > many of the VROC drivers (except when they start talking about their > GPLRank...or PB's at such and such a track.......usually I get bored and > sign off...or go race for a while or something)....and I am looking for

some > people who might want to be distributors of the BRD product line in acouple > parts of the country where we need some help. It turns out there was a > couple guys down in LA who were interested and one back east.....all open > territories for us at the moment. I asked them to send me an email so I > could get their email address easily and send them some info. Since I > didn't know them previously, I also asked them to tell me a little about > their sim racing experience....keeping it short and simple. This wasn'tan

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> employment application for an F1 race team as a driver! ....lol... All > three sent me an email.....right away (within minutes)...it was great. > However, the first one I read....started out with a disclaimer about not > wanting to look like he was bragging about how good of a racing driver he > was....but his GPLRank was......some number?? it make no sense to me (-2 I > think?). I deleted that email. The other two guys started off with > something of similar "disclaimers" about bragging....and managed to get to > their GPLRank numbers before the end of the first paragraph. Those got > deleted too. God forbid I'd end up having some "gamer" representing the > professional line of BRD race controllers and cockpits.....to a real race > team in their territory....if I should refer one of them to our

distributor. > Ain't no way that is going to happen! > > So, in closing....let me repeat this to all of you who enjoy > hot-lapping....and have fun with your GPLRank. I totally defend yourright > to those activities and I wouldn't do anything to stop you from doing > them...and enjoying them. I am asking you to do me the favor of stop > referring to those things as "racing" or "race driving"....at least in all > the public forums of the sim racing community. I don't care what you doin

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> private email...or in "whisper chat"....for that matter. > > Here's a list of people I've either had business discussions with, and/or > have had in one of our simulators (Pabst-Racing simulators) or raced > with/against over the Internet in a racing simulator (and then talked some > business)...over the last two years. Many of these people have actually > been in my home. They are all from real-world racing and they are all > interested in what all this sim racing stuff is about these days! They

are: > > Ken Ude (Bell Helmets investor/owner), Brad Pierce (Pierce Motorsports,ACRL > 2000 Season Driver Champion - City of Las Vegas), Kris Mellon (M & R > Motorsports - engineered about 30 individual 24-Hours Of Daytona-Rolexrace > finishers and 6 winning cars over the last 25 years), Don Panoz (Panoz > Motorsports - owner/promoter ALMS), Tom Seabolt (Ops Manager, GrandAmerican > Series, former team manager of Holbert Racing), Andy Evans (former ownerof > IMSA, former owner of ALMS, owner of 7 IRL Indy500 qualifiers in 1997, > personal friend of Bill Gates), Jacques Coutre' (Operations Manager/owner, > Jim Russell Racing Schools), John Zudell (Director of Track Developments, > SMI Corp), Humpy Wheeler (President, SMI Corp), Tony Sakkis (writer,"Racer > Magazine"), Ron Huber (Bell Helmets investor/owner, Winston West driver), > Rob Weston (Director of Marketing, Jim Russell Racing Schools), JD Kramer > (WoO driver/team owner), David Grace (Director, Rockingham MotorSpeedway - > Rockingham, England)...and the following drivers: Dave McEntee (ALMS > driver), Mika Hakinnen (F1 driver, McLaren), Alan McNish (ALMS driver, F1 > test driver), Randy Pobst (ALMS driver), Scott Sharp (IRL driver), Ward > Burton (Winston Cup driver), Steve Park (Winston Cup driver), Jeff Gordon > (Winston Cup driver), Bobby Labonte (Winston Cup driver), Dale Earnhardt, > Jr. (Winston Cup driver), Robby Gordon (IRL/Winston Cup driver). Thislist > is by no means a complete list of everyone we've talked to or had business > discussions with from real-world racing...and its not in any order becauseI > just typed it off the top of my head (apologies to anyone who's name I > misspelled for that reason). > > I would love it someday if I could let any one on that list sit next to me > while I entered a VROC GPL race....and chat with the drivers in VROC.But, > I can't do that today. God forbid...any of these people would know how to > access this r.a.s. newsgroup.....it wouldn't take but a few posts likethose > below ("GPL and not left-foot braking..." and others)...and I'd be laughed > all the way back to Missouri by these folks. The entire sim racing > community would lose if that happened. > > So, please....could you guys "hot-lap" all you want...but just stoptalking

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> about it as if it was racing? Please? > > Regards, > > Tom Pabst > >

In article <9lqv2e$onp$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Herbert Pohlai) writes:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] (EldredP) writes: >>I'm trying to get the maximum out of the car without crashing - hotlapping, >>practice, qualifying, racing. Does everyone else do it differently? Why >would >>you want to crash? > >Yeah, now I know why you dont improve as fast ;) >At least I use the simulator benefit of being invulnerable >to approach the limit from both sides. > >For me, it is not going into a turn carefully, then a bit faster, >a bit faster, a little bit faster... until I doubt I can go another >little bit faster. > >I prefer a kind of binary search from both sides. >Going into a turn carefully - too slow. ok. >Going into it carelessly - oops, too fast. >A bit slower - ok, works. >A bit faster - oops, too fast. >A little bit slower - ok. >A very little bit faster - perfekt.

Sure, if I know that the reason I crashed was that I was 5 mph too fast. I've had times where the car 'steeped out', and I didn't think I was going any faster than the last 20 laps in the same turn... If it was easier to judge the speed, I might not have that problem. > >Of course, in real life I would try to >avoid these 'oops'-moments :) > Well, I should *hope* so...<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I (sentimental mode on <g>) remember a time when hotlapping was an easy going competition among friends. Practice time for a new hotlap was 10 minutes. The sims were ICR1/2, GP1/2. Most of us stopped hotlapping when the time required to beat each others laptimes starting going beyond 15 minutes :-) Personally I felt that up to 25 minutes for a hotlapping session are bearable, but anything beyond that requires an enormous amount of willpower. That's actually what I respect todays top hotlappers for - their enormous dedication and determination. Willpower. Achim "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0afg7.120945$[email hidden]... > You're absolutely right about hotlapping. Hotlapping can only give you a > measurement of a person's skill if you know exactly how many hours it took > them to achieve their lap times. The quicker someone gets up to speed, the > better they are. A person can learn any eye/hand coordination exercisewith > enough practice. I couldn't care less what someone's hotlap time is for a > track if I know they've been at it for weeks, months, or even years.

In article <0afg7.120945$[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>You're absolutely right about hotlapping. Hotlapping can only give you a >measurement of a person's skill if you know exactly how many hours it took >them to achieve their lap times. The quicker someone gets up to speed, the >better they are. A person can learn any eye/hand coordination exercise with >enough practice. I couldn't care less what someone's hotlap time is for a >track if I know they've been at it for weeks, months, or even years. >

The skill shown by different drivers is to some extent, innate. Tarso Marques will never be as good as Michael Schumacher. I'll never be as good as Greger Huttu. It doesn't matter HOW many laps you run - there are still limits. Another example: I'm a bowler. I know people my dad's age who have been bowling seriously for 40+ years. They may have gotten to a 180 or so average. I reached that point in about 8 years. Does that mean I was so much better than them? I don't think so. At the time, we were equal. The fact that I've since gone PAST that level makes me better *now*. Totally different. Besides, what ever happened to rewarding hard work? If someone practices at their chosen activity to get good at it, why SHOULDN'T they be rewarded? A concert pianist may have been practicing for 20 years to hone his/her skill. Does that belittle the accomplishment? Apparently, only to you... You seem to think that unless the accomplishment comes quickly, it isn't worth mentioning. Why is that, David? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" wrote > Besides, what ever happened to rewarding hard work? If someone practicesat > their chosen activity to get good at it, why SHOULDN'T they be rewarded?A > concert pianist may have been practicing for 20 years to hone his/herskill. > Does that belittle the accomplishment? Apparently, only to you... > You seem to think that unless the accomplishment comes quickly, it isn'tworth > mentioning. Why is that, David? > The tricky bit is getting the balance between hotlapping as an activity itself (like your piano playing example) or as part of the real life simulation some of this group are striving for. In real life there is not the availability to practice endlessly. There are distinct time periods available. Sure for some it is their test track, but I doesn't compare with the amount of track time available to simmers. Hotlapping for me equates to practice. I agree practice deserves to be rewarded, but we have to accept that our sims differ to real life in this respect. Regardless I believe things like gplrank do give a reasonable comparison, and that speed is a mixture of skill and practice. The quick drivers always seem to set the pace in new sims in a short time frame (darn them!) Tony

> Sure, if I know that the reason I crashed was that I was 5 mph too fast.I've > had times where the car 'steeped out', and I didn't think I was going any > faster than the last 20 laps in the same turn... > If it was easier to judge the speed, I might not have that problem. Same here, but I don't think speed is necessarily the problem more the controller input. Rather than going in 5 mph too fast I tend to think I pressed the brake a fraction too hard, or insufficient/too much throttle, or missed a braking point by a fraction from the previous lap. Watching replays of faster drivers, they tend to be quicker pretty much everywhere. So it is not simply too fast but not having the mastery of the control inputs. I would find a way of being more consistent with the pedal inputs would be more valuable to me than improving speed judgement. Cheers Tony

Seems this sub thread died rather quickly, so I'm *hoping* that this discussion will continue with this post. I'm still curious as to what it would take to bring the media in? From posts with-in this thread and other threads I see we need a Sanctioning body to bring in all the different SimRacing leagues under one umbrella. One that would keep track of statistics of each drivers finishing positions with-in each series. What if a sanctioning body was started? Then what? (I wish Chris Cosby would continue to broadcast SimRaces, especially NASCAR4 races), Michael Barlow "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Why not?? Seriously Frank. Just because you don't see the usefullness > or value of doing so, does not mean its a viable possibility for others to > pursue. No one is saying you or anyone has to participate in it at that > level. > > Mike simply asked what would it take and quite "frankly" (ouch), I don't > have that answer. =) > > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Y%zf7.56951$[email hidden]... > > > > Just also wanted to say "Hey there Mike" ;-) > > > > The thing is, WHY is it necessary to make it a sport worthy of the

media? > > It's not important. For many it's just the capitalist attraction ofmoney > > that TV or any other kind of media would bring to the "sport". Wealready > > have the Internet as a form of communication to back us up, why go to > > anything more?

In article <0afg7.120945$[email hidden]>, David G Fisher <[email hidden]> writes

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>You're absolutely right about hotlapping. Hotlapping can only give you a >measurement of a person's skill if you know exactly how many hours it took >them to achieve their lap times. The quicker someone gets up to speed, the >better they are. A person can learn any eye/hand coordination exercise with >enough practice. I couldn't care less what someone's hotlap time is for a >track if I know they've been at it for weeks, months, or even years. > >David G Fisher

So, what would it be about someone else's sim racing that does make you interested? What gets your sim racing juices flowing, then? -- Peter Ives Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <0afg7.120945$[email hidden]>, "David GFisher" > <[email hidden]> writes: > Besides, what ever happened to rewarding hard work? I wouldn't consider hotlapping hard work. For example, getting up at 6 am to work all day with patients at a children's cancer hospital is hard work, mentally, emotionally, and physically. >If someone practices at > their chosen activity to get good at it, why SHOULDN'T they be rewarded?A > concert pianist may have been practicing for 20 years to hone his/herskill. > Does that belittle the accomplishment? The comparison isn't equal. Anyway, unless I had more information, I still wouldn't know if they are a truly gifted musician, or just someone who practices a lot. > Apparently, only to you... Yes, I'm the one who started this thread. > You seem to think that unless the accomplishment comes quickly, it isn'tworth > mentioning. Why is that, David? It depends on the accomplishment. They aren't all the same. Hotlapping charts/rankings don't tell me anything. They don't tell me the person is a good sim driver, or that he's a bad sim driver. David G Fisher

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> Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Just so you know that I sympathize to some extent: I think I know where you are coming from Tom as I have a real problem with the term 'compression' being used in place of 'data reduction' when referring to audio. The result of which, if you take the long (and very real) way around, leaves me with 20 years of extremely hard earned experience in my field going to no good effect. I'm obsolete. Nobody wants what I'm offering. Kaput. I'm not sure you would care about my plight when trying to figure out how to email Uncle Herb the latest Staind song. My point is only that - people will think and do what they like. (For the most part, this post is babbling. But you got me thinking.) That being said, I use GPLRank to judge my performance. Absolutely. My buddy list is comprised of people that I know intimately from newsgroup discussions, people I race with often on VROC, people who's articles I read, and Huttu. (The later simply for the purpose of shocking my heart into action on mornings that we run out of coffee.) My fastest laps are all race laps. That's all I do. I run race setups at racing pace. I can reproduce every time to within a few 10ths any day. I race in two full damage leagues and guess what? I practice with full damage, even on new tracks. Some of the people on my buddy list do the same, some don't. I know who's who and that's why GPLRank is a good for me. It really is a gauge for me of how well I'm progressing. It's just like using a single lap time to see if a setup or driving style change worked. Only longer. I think speed is definitely one of the skills that a race car driver must possess. Chaz Wood started a thing a couple of years ago that was really cool... while it was... In case you are unaware, it was an invitational league. The GPLRC I believe, and if someone suggested you be added to the list then all you had to do was race a public race with Chaz or one of his appointees to see if you made the cut. The only qualification was that you were clean. You could race when ever you wanted as long as it was on the official server and all results were compiled daily. It was excellent. I remember starting 10th or 12th on many nights and going through Curva Grande or Eau Rouge without seeing a single wreck. Granted, some raced more often than others, but it was very clear who were the most successful racers. I'm not sure what happened, but I would guess that administration got to be too much, how could it not? In the end, the only ones who could be judged by it where the ones racing on it. As many entrants as there were on the roster I'm sure it left out a fair number of good, solid sim racers. If that means anything. I have at least a little of each of the skills that you list as those indicative of a good race driver. I know where I am weakest and try to work on that point. When it overshadows the next point I have a new project. I know all my league cohorts have the same skills and that they consider them skills and think of them consciously because I have talked to them about them. Many of us use GPLRank in many of our discussions and consider it a great tool. We don't consider GPLRank as racing, not that I've heard directly, but we include it in many discussions about racing. Can't see how we'd separate it sometimes. Some days, I don't race as clean as I would like. I'm me, a guy enjoying a hobby and the dangers of a wreck are minimal. If I had even one sponsor, no matter how much the deal was worth, I'd put in my best every inch of the way. But, that simply isn't the case. I think many of us here 'race' like that. PS Anyone who enters any chat room or newsgroup anywhere should expect the lowest of low. I find VROC and R.A.S. to be quite a ways above that. High even. If you are introducing someone to an online community who has no prior experience... a quick briefing might be in order? -- "Racing! - Science for the action minded." mark "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Eopf7.11334$[email hidden]... > .....So I'm going to try to keep this as short as I can (and it will > probably still be too long). Sorry. <snip>

Hi David, even in hotlapping ;-) there's a point where you need talent to get faster. Even more so in order to achieve world record laptimes within the timeframe set by the competition (i.e. not 5 years later). That's a criterion we must not forget. No matter how much time the hottest hotshoes practice, a day has only 24 hours, so even if they invest a lot of leisure time, I'm sure all of the top guys do that, but still some of them are faster than others. It's indeed a bit like with a piano player. He needs practice and talent to be good. Those who know and understand something about music are able to hear if he's just got fast fingers, or if he has talent, and fills the music with life, emotion and expression. This also applies to driving sims. If you watch how a driver drives a track, watch how he handles the challenges the track poses, you can tell if he's got imagination and talent, or not. It's not all just practice :-) Anyway, I feel that we should respect each others achievements rather than try to create 'worthy' and 'less worthy' sim racers. We share a common hobby, we have a lot of common interest, and I feels it's quite against our own interest to separate the 'hotlappers' from the 'racers'. Each of us hones his skill in the fields where he enjoys it most. Achim "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:iz%g7.126621$[email hidden]...

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> > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <0afg7.120945$[email hidden]>, "David G > Fisher" > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > Besides, what ever happened to rewarding hard work? > > I wouldn't consider hotlapping hard work. For example, getting up at 6 am

to

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> work all day with patients at a children's cancer hospital is hard work, > mentally, emotionally, and physically. > > >If someone practices at > > their chosen activity to get good at it, why SHOULDN'T they be rewarded? > A > > concert pianist may have been practicing for 20 years to hone his/her > skill. > > Does that belittle the accomplishment? > > The comparison isn't equal. Anyway, unless I had more information, I still > wouldn't know if they are a truly gifted musician, or just someone who > practices a lot. > > > Apparently, only to you... > > Yes, I'm the one who started this thread. > > > You seem to think that unless the accomplishment comes quickly, it isn't > worth > > mentioning. Why is that, David? > > It depends on the accomplishment. They aren't all the same. Hotlapping > charts/rankings don't tell me anything. They don't tell me the person is a > good sim driver, or that he's a bad sim driver. > > David G Fisher > > > Eldred > > -- > > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... > > > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats > you > > with experience... > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. >

In article <iz%g7.126621$[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>>If someone practices at >> their chosen activity to get good at it, why SHOULDN'T they be rewarded? >A >> concert pianist may have been practicing for 20 years to hone his/her >skill. >> Does that belittle the accomplishment? > >The comparison isn't equal. Anyway, unless I had more information, I still >wouldn't know if they are a truly gifted musician, or just someone who >practices a lot.

Again, what's the difference? It doesn't matter it the person practices at it, or is Mozart re-incarnated. They still have a certain amount of skill at their chosen activity.

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>> You seem to think that unless the accomplishment comes quickly, it isn't >worth >> mentioning. Why is that, David? > >It depends on the accomplishment. They aren't all the same. Hotlapping >charts/rankings don't tell me anything. They don't tell me the person is a >good sim driver, or that he's a bad sim driver.

Why not? Someone who runs a 1:26 at Monza can certainly be considered a better driver than someone who can only run 1:40. It's an objective ranking. Even if you want to collect stats for race wins, pole positions, etc - that data changes arbitrarily. Someone might have 10 race wins, but he's only running against novices. Would you see him as a better sim driver than someone who finished last in a race of 'aliens'? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Why not? Someone who runs a 1:26 at Monza can certainly be considered abetter > driver than someone who can only run 1:40. It's an objective ranking.Even if > you want to collect stats for race wins, pole positions, etc - that data > changes arbitrarily. Someone might have 10 race wins, but he's onlyrunning > against novices. Would you see him as a better sim driver than someonewho > finished last in a race of 'aliens'? > > Eldred In a similar vein, that 1:26 guy might be the daddy of all T1 kamikaze pilots, or never finish a race for running into the back of other cars. He might also crash out 9 times out of 10 when hotlapping, the 1 being the successful run. the 1:40 lad might be slow, but if he's clean, has better awareness and consideration of the other drivers, never causing a problem when he's being lapped. Just more fuel to the fire I know, but who decides what's best? faster=better, or not, is the jury out on that. Having said all that, at least in the GPL league races I've participated in (I'm one of the mobile chicanes in GPL) the good racers are also fast. Conversely, I'll find N4 full of "fast" dickheads who don't have clue one about racing, any night of the week on papyloop. cheers John

David G Fisher wrote in news:iz%g7.126621$[email hidden]:

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> > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> In article <0afg7.120945$[email hidden]>, >> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: > >> Besides, what ever happened to rewarding hard work? > > I wouldn't consider hotlapping hard work. For example, getting up > at 6 am to work all day with patients at a children's cancer > hospital is hard work, mentally, emotionally, and physically. > >>If someone practices at >> their chosen activity to get good at it, why SHOULDN'T they be >> rewarded? A concert pianist may have been practicing for 20 years >> to hone his/her skill. Does that belittle the accomplishment? > > The comparison isn't equal. Anyway, unless I had more information, > I still wouldn't know if they are a truly gifted musician, or just > someone who practices a lot.

If you can play very well, it is likely that you are both a gifted musician _and_ you have practiced a lot. I know of no gifted musicians who do not practice regularly. At the same time, I know of a number of people, myself included, who practice a lot at music and still can, at best, be described as "adequate" or even "marginal" musicians. The point being that if you have no talent, practice is only going to take you so far. If I am not a good driver, I am never going to get an 8:15 at Nurenburg in GPL, regardless of how much I practice. If someone tells me they have managed a 1:28 at Monza, I'm going to assume they have some talent. If they tell me they did after only five or six hours of practice, I'm going to think they learn very quickly.

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> >> Apparently, only to you... > > Yes, I'm the one who started this thread. > >> You seem to think that unless the accomplishment comes quickly, it >> isn't worth mentioning. Why is that, David? > > It depends on the accomplishment. They aren't all the same. > Hotlapping charts/rankings don't tell me anything. They don't tell > me the person is a good sim driver, or that he's a bad sim driver. > > David G Fisher > >> Eldred

-- Darryl

In article <w6ch7.36244$[email hidden]>, "JM" <[email hidden]> writes: >In a similar vein, that 1:26 guy might be the daddy of all T1 kamikaze >pilots, or never finish a race for running into the back of other cars. He >might also crash out 9 times out of 10 when hotlapping, the 1 being the >successful run.Sure, that's possible. If the guy is 3 seconds per lap faster than I am, he could slow down(ie: take it easy), and lose maybe a second a lap. Guess what? That's STILL 2 seconds per lap faster. I don't know why most of the faster drivers don't take that route... :( > >the 1:40 lad might be slow, but if he's clean, has better awareness and >consideration of the other drivers, never causing a problem when he's being >lapped.It depends on who you ask<g>. If you ask the aforementioned kamikaze, "That !@#$ slowed me up too much!!!"..."So I ran him off the road!" I actually had a guy say something similar to me.

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> >Just more fuel to the fire I know, but who decides what's best? >faster=better, or not, is the jury out on that. > >Having said all that, at least in the GPL league races I've participated in >(I'm one of the mobile chicanes in GPL) the good racers are also fast. > >Conversely, I'll find N4 full of "fast" dickheads who don't have clue one >about racing, any night of the week on papyloop.

I haven't tried N4 online much yet. I'm still getting graphics slowdowns online... :( Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Wow Mark, you're getting as bad as Tom :P BTW, some very valid points, well said. Rafe Mc On Thu, 23 Aug 2001 03:11:54 -0600, "mark jeangerard" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Just so you know that I sympathize to some extent: I think I know where you >are coming from Tom as I have a real problem with the term 'compression' >being used in place of 'data reduction' when referring to audio. The result >of which, if you take the long (and very real) way around, leaves me with 20 >years of extremely hard earned experience in my field going to no good >effect. I'm obsolete. Nobody wants what I'm offering. Kaput. I'm not sure >you would care about my plight when trying to figure out how to email Uncle >Herb the latest Staind song. My point is only that - people will think and >do what they like. (For the most part, this post is babbling. But you got me >thinking.) > >That being said, I use GPLRank to judge my performance. Absolutely. My buddy >list is comprised of people that I know intimately from newsgroup >discussions, people I race with often on VROC, people who's articles I read, >and Huttu. (The later simply for the purpose of shocking my heart into >action on mornings that we run out of coffee.) My fastest laps are all race >laps. That's all I do. I run race setups at racing pace. I can reproduce >every time to within a few 10ths any day. I race in two full damage leagues >and guess what? I practice with full damage, even on new tracks. Some of the >people on my buddy list do the same, some don't. I know who's who and that's >why GPLRank is a good for me. It really is a gauge for me of how well I'm >progressing. It's just like using a single lap time to see if a setup or >driving style change worked. Only longer. I think speed is definitely one of >the skills that a race car driver must possess. > >Chaz Wood started a thing a couple of years ago that was really cool... >while it was... In case you are unaware, it was an invitational league. The >GPLRC I believe, and if someone suggested you be added to the list then all >you had to do was race a public race with Chaz or one of his appointees to >see if you made the cut. The only qualification was that you were clean. You >could race when ever you wanted as long as it was on the official server and >all results were compiled daily. It was excellent. I remember starting 10th >or 12th on many nights and going through Curva Grande or Eau Rouge without >seeing a single wreck. Granted, some raced more often than others, but it >was very clear who were the most successful racers. I'm not sure what >happened, but I would guess that administration got to be too much, how >could it not? In the end, the only ones who could be judged by it where the >ones racing on it. As many entrants as there were on the roster I'm sure it >left out a fair number of good, solid sim racers. If that means anything. > >I have at least a little of each of the skills that you list as those >indicative of a good race driver. I know where I am weakest and try to work >on that point. When it overshadows the next point I have a new project. I >know all my league cohorts have the same skills and that they consider them >skills and think of them consciously because I have talked to them about >them. Many of us use GPLRank in many of our discussions and consider it a >great tool. We don't consider GPLRank as racing, not that I've heard >directly, but we include it in many discussions about racing. Can't see how >we'd separate it sometimes. > >Some days, I don't race as clean as I would like. I'm me, a guy enjoying a >hobby and the dangers of a wreck are minimal. If I had even one sponsor, no >matter how much the deal was worth, I'd put in my best every inch of the >way. But, that simply isn't the case. I think many of us here 'race' like >that. > >PS Anyone who enters any chat room or newsgroup anywhere should expect the >lowest of low. I find VROC and R.A.S. to be quite a ways above that. High >even. If you are introducing someone to an online community who has no prior >experience... a quick briefing might be in order?