RACER Lets Start It Again

Lets start the thread fresh! :) Q: #1 Who is basically doing all this work on Racer? [btw I like Racer :) ] Q: #2 Can we get a few AIs in it? Q: #3 I'd like to add as many as tracks as possible but I think I will need some help with the Mas exe & the other.. anyone? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

yer all an .....oops I'm the wrong Dave... dave henrie "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:c3%f7.118994$[email hidden]... > Lets start the thread fresh! :)

#1 Ruud van Gaal is the main culprit #2 ask him, I'm guessing that isn't going to happen soon #3 The best two I've found are by far Brno, and Mugello. Get them here: http://www.drivingitalia.com/racer/tracks.htm I say best two mainly because of frame rate. The other tracks I've seen are stock F12K conversions, where some of the objects (fences especially!) make the frame rate drop to a crawl. At least is does on a V3 card. "Thom j." wrote:

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> > Lets start the thread fresh! :) > > Q: #1 Who is basically doing all this work on Racer? > [btw I like Racer :) ] > Q: #2 Can we get a few AIs in it? > Q: #3 I'd like to add as many as tracks as possible but > I think I will need some help with the Mas exe & > the other.. anyone? > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

hahaha ur a trip Dave H :) "Dave Henrie" wrote: | yer all an .....oops I'm the wrong Dave... | dave henrie | "Thom j."wrote: | > Lets start the thread fresh! :) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

Thanx Pat & a special thanx to Ruud van Gaal too :).. I downloaded all the tracks from the site below! I had been doing Silverstone this morning and got a 2:16 but I have no idea how good this is or isnt? So for now we'll have to just 'hotlap' [oops a no no here now :).] & race mano e` car'o. -Thom_j. "Pat Dotson" wrote:

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| #1 Ruud van Gaal is the main culprit | | #2 ask him, I'm guessing that isn't going to happen soon | | #3 The best two I've found are by far Brno, and Mugello. | Get them here: | http://www.drivingitalia.com/racer/tracks.htm | | I say best two mainly because of frame rate. The other | tracks I've seen are stock F12K conversions, where some | of the objects (fences especially!) make the frame | rate drop to a crawl. At least is does on a V3 card. | | | "Thom j." wrote: | > | > Lets start the thread fresh! :) | > | > Q: #1 Who is basically doing all this work on Racer? | > [btw I like Racer :) ] | > Q: #2 Can we get a few AIs in it? | > Q: #3 I'd like to add as many as tracks as possible but | > I think I will need some help with the Mas exe & | > the other.. anyone? | > | > --- | > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. | > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). | > Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

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"Thom j." & race mano e` car'o. > -Thom_j. Thom have you been listening to David Hobbs again? dh

"Thom j." & race mano e` car'o. Thom have you been listening to David Hobbs again? dh

LOL Ur on a roll tonight aint ya?? hahaha One thing at least I aint a Sam Pose`[sp?] "Dave Henrie" wrote:

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| | "Thom j." & race mano e` car'o. | > -Thom_j. | Thom have you been listening to David Hobbs again? | dh | |

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On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:40:54 -0500, Pat Dotson <[email hidden]> wrote: >#2 ask him, I'm guessing that isn't going to happen soon Multiplayer will be in before AI. That gives you essentially extra drivers for free in terms of CPU (not gfx though!) and it's easier to do multiplayer than AI. :)

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>#3 The best two I've found are by far Brno, and Mugello. >Get them here: >http://www.drivingitalia.com/racer/tracks.htm > >I say best two mainly because of frame rate. The other >tracks I've seen are stock F12K conversions, where some >of the objects (fences especially!) make the frame >rate drop to a crawl. At least is does on a V3 card.

Racer doesn't seem to do too well on Voodoo's. It's better on nVidia cards (have 2 of those myself). Thanks for the support; I'm a bit busy the coming time but still working on it. Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

Ruud van Gaal wrote: > Multiplayer will be in before AI. That gives you essentially extra > drivers for free in terms of CPU (not gfx though!) and it's easier to > do multiplayer than AI. :) Finally a sensible developer!! :-D Offline racing died with GPL folks!! -- ed_

Thanx for the info & Racer Ruud!! I like it! :) It is growing on me more every lap! Great on the Multiplayer! I thought AI was easier but I am no programmer so I dont know sqwat about it! Again a job well done & the price is right!! :) "Ruud van Gaal" wrote:

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| On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:40:54 -0500, Pat Dotson wrote: | | >#2 ask him, I'm guessing that isn't going to happen soon | | Multiplayer will be in before AI. That gives you essentially extra | drivers for free in terms of CPU (not gfx though!) and it's easier to | do multiplayer than AI. :) | | >#3 The best two I've found are by far Brno, and Mugello. | >Get them here: | >http://www.drivingitalia.com/racer/tracks.htm | > | >I say best two mainly because of frame rate. The other | >tracks I've seen are stock F12K conversions, where some | >of the objects (fences especially!) make the frame | >rate drop to a crawl. At least is does on a V3 card. | | Racer doesn't seem to do too well on Voodoo's. It's better on nVidia | cards (have 2 of those myself). | | Thanks for the support; I'm a bit busy the coming time but still | working on it. | | | Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 | Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ | Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

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Dummy me, asked Ed cuz I thought Multiplayer was alot harder..lol "Ed Solheim" wrote:

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| | Finally a sensible developer!! :-D | Offline racing died with GPL folks!! | | -- | ed_ | Ruud van Gaal wrote: | | > Multiplayer will be in before AI. That gives you essentially extra | > drivers for free in terms of CPU (not gfx though!) and it's easier to | > do multiplayer than AI. :)

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On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:47:56 GMT, "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote: >Thanx for the info & Racer Ruud!! I like it! :) It is growing on >me more every lap! Great on the Multiplayer! I thought AI was >easier but I am no programmer so I dont know sqwat about it! >Again a job well done & the price is right!! :) Thanks! :) AI has multiple cars, like Multiplayer. For AI, you must make some kind of robot to let them drive the car, or get replays (which aren't in yet) and use that as a guiding line. And tweak ad infinitum. Ofcourse multiplayer has its problems once you hit modem connections and lag, but in my eyes it's less uncontrollable than the improvement potential you have in AI (you can improve AI until you die I think). Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

[email hidden] (Ruud van Gaal) writes:

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> On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:40:54 -0500, Pat Dotson > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >#2 ask him, I'm guessing that isn't going to happen soon > > Multiplayer will be in before AI. That gives you essentially extra > drivers for free in terms of CPU (not gfx though!) and it's easier to > do multiplayer than AI. :)

have you thought about how to handle car-car collisions in multiplayer? -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 "Det er nok ingen ovn, men fartsm�leren v�r."

"Thom j." <[email hidden]> writes: > Thanx for the info & Racer Ruud!! I like it! :) It is growing on > me more every lap! Great on the Multiplayer! I thought AI was > easier but I am no programmer so I dont know sqwat about it! you're right, in a way. doing bad AI is easy. :-) -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 gitaren er en sjingke

On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 15:31:15 GMT, Gunnar Horrigmo <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>"Thom j." <[email hidden]> writes: > >> Thanx for the info & Racer Ruud!! I like it! :) It is growing on >> me more every lap! Great on the Multiplayer! I thought AI was >> easier but I am no programmer so I dont know sqwat about it! > >you're right, in a way. doing bad AI is easy. :-)

Ehm yes, in that case, it's already in! Just enable ai, hehe. But oh sorry, the driver is asleep and you can drive through him (his name is Casper). ;-) Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 15:31:15 GMT, Gunnar Horrigmo <[email hidden]> wrote: >you're right, in a way. doing bad AI is easy. :-) Hey you just tell the buying public that the AI will 'learn', and when the AI keeps driving like crap, you simply explain that the AI adjusts to the owners driving style.. Andre

On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 15:30:02 GMT, Gunnar Horrigmo <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>[email hidden] (Ruud van Gaal) writes: >> On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:40:54 -0500, Pat Dotson >> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >#2 ask him, I'm guessing that isn't going to happen soon >> >> Multiplayer will be in before AI. That gives you essentially extra >> drivers for free in terms of CPU (not gfx though!) and it's easier to >> do multiplayer than AI. :) > >have you thought about how to handle car-car collisions in >multiplayer?

OBB-OBB collisions, looking glancily at the Oxford Dynamics toolkit I think (www.oxforddynamics.co.uk). This would give you a penetration point and depth (a HUGE function!): int BoxBoxCollisionDetection(real res_normal[3],real res_point[3],real &res_penetration,const CBox& box0,const CBox& box1); But oh you mean who's boss? I just let the cars drive as they please, and the host will check car-car collisions and notify the client of any hits. Ofcourse, it'd be easy to create a client that would ignore these events and just drive on while the other client/car *does* listen to the bounce, but IP numbers will be logged and a killfile is easy enough to create. Other than that, I expect not too much hacking by drivers, as the game attracts mostly serious racers. Although I might have to eat those words in the future. ;-) Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

[email hidden] (Ruud van Gaal) writes: > > But oh you mean who's boss? I just let the cars drive as they please, > and the host will check car-car collisions and notify the client of > any hits. I was thinking of those situations where one client sees a collition, while "the other client" doesn't, due to network latency. the best solution might be to kick both off the track, though. but this really is more of an ethical problem than a technical one. :) -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 myk, trygg og god.

On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 15:30:02 GMT, Gunnar Horrigmo <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>[email hidden] (Ruud van Gaal) writes: >> On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:40:54 -0500, Pat Dotson >> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >#2 ask him, I'm guessing that isn't going to happen soon >> >> Multiplayer will be in before AI. That gives you essentially extra >> drivers for free in terms of CPU (not gfx though!) and it's easier to >> do multiplayer than AI. :) > >have you thought about how to handle car-car collisions in >multiplayer?

How about both cars explode and then lie on the trackside in a heap, after which the r.a.s. goon squad comes to both of the drivers houses, kills their pets, rapes their spouses and pees on the carpet. -Scott Johnson Fry Mumia http://www.danielfaulkner.com

Don't know how Ruud is doing it, but normally the host or server is the one who tells the clients whether they have a collision or not, for precisely that reason. "Gunnar Horrigmo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > [email hidden] (Ruud van Gaal) writes: > > > > But oh you mean who's boss? I just let the cars drive as theyplease,

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> > and the host will check car-car collisions and notify the client of > > any hits. > > I was thinking of those situations where one client sees a collition, > while "the other client" doesn't, due to network latency. the best > solution might be to kick both off the track, though. but this really > is more of an ethical problem than a technical one. :) > > > -- > Gunnar > #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8

Kibo�: 2 > myk, trygg og god.

Yes I think you are correct Gunnar? Doesnt F1RC have the best of the worse AIs? :) "Gunnar Horrigmo" wrote:

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| you're right, in a way. doing bad AI is easy. :-) | -- | Gunnar | #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 | gitaren er en sjingke | "Thom j." writes: | | > Thanx for the info & Racer Ruud!! I like it! :) It is growing on | > me more every lap! Great on the Multiplayer! I thought AI was | > easier but I am no programmer so I dont know sqwat about it!

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Ruud, Is he friendly? Booohooowahahaha Oops, Sorry I got carried away! :) "Ruud van Gaal" wrote:

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| Ehm yes, in that case, it's already in! Just enable ai, hehe. But oh | sorry, the driver is asleep and you can drive through him (his name is | Casper). ;-) | | Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 | Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ | Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

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21 August 2001 "Coming together is a beginning, staying together is progress and working together is success." Henry Ford, founder Ford Motor Company Sim-racers come in two incarnations: the occasional "punter" and the semi-professional racer. The difference is what they do on a Friday night: the punter goes out on the piss, comes home to schnack on bad food and falls asleep. The semi-pro does the same thing: except, instead of sleeping, he logs on to WINVroc and proceeds to make a complete twit outta himself. Drivers that dedicate their time to run in leagues are semi-professional sportspeople. The time it takes to become even reasonably competitive makes sim-racing into a genuine sport. A sport that requires - no! - insists! - on dedication, talent, skill and, of course, that most crucial aspect of any sport, practice. So what is missing? http://www.filsca.com/filscawhite.html

This is starting to become a *huge* problem in N4 online Gunnar! Then who's really at fault? Client A? Client B? The Server? Or all? Who'll kick the server out?...lol :) "Gunnar Horrigmo" wrote:

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| I was thinking of those situations where one client sees a collition, | while "the other client" doesn't, due to network latency. the best | solution might be to kick both off the track, though. but this really | is more of an ethical problem than a technical one. :) | -- | Gunnar | #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 | myk, trygg og god.

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Ok how bout after the explosion you get a 110v of current shot into you via your FF or even non-FF wheel? huh? huh??huh?? :) "Top Sirloin" wrote: | How about both cars explode and then lie on the trackside in a heap, afterwhich | the r.a.s. goon squad comes to both of the drivers houses, kills theirpets, | rapes their spouses and pees on the carpet. | | | -Scott Johnson | Fry Mumia | http://www.danielfaulkner.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:09:10 +0200, Christoph Schirmer <[email hidden]> wrote: >The difference is what they do on a Friday night: >the punter goes out on the piss, comes >home to schnack on bad food and falls asleep. The semi-pro does the same >thing: except, instead of sleeping, he logs on to WINVroc and proceeds to >make a complete twit outta >himself. Personally, after a night on the piss I like to log on to IRC and piss people off.

On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 15:30:02 GMT, Gunnar Horrigmo <[email hidden]> wrote: >have you thought about how to handle car-car collisions in >multiplayer? if(m_bFirstTurn==TRUE) { CrashAllCars(); } Remco

WHITE PAPER: THE FUTURE OF SIMRACING 21 August 2001 "Coming together is a beginning, staying together is progress and working together is success." Henry Ford, founder Ford Motor Company Sim-racers come in two incarnations: the occasional "punter" and the semi-professional racer. The difference is what they do on a Friday night: the punter goes out on the piss, comes home to schnack on bad food and falls asleep. The semi-pro does the same thing: except, instead of sleeping, he logs on to WINVroc and proceeds to make a complete twit outta himself. Drivers that dedicate their time to run in leagues are semi-professional sportspeople. The time it takes to become even reasonably competitive makes sim-racing into a genuine sport. A sport that requires - no! - insists! - on dedication, talent, skill and, of course, that most crucial aspect of any sport, practice. So what is missing? Why can Counterstrike serial-killer wannabes earn cash for playing in a LAN event in Copenhagen? Why can Quakers earn cash for clicking polygon-inspired death on their sweaty mouses like a bunch of lab-rats? Can watching a bunch of geeks with bad skin and dodgy hygiene be more entertaining than watching sim-racers power-sliding round the Ring in simulators more accurate than those found in many of the world's biggest car-manufacturers� laboratories? Well maybe so - but sim-drivers are prettier, what with their permanent squints of PC induced nebular haze and gear-shift twitching fingers. So what the hell is missing? Sim-racing has it all: personalities, sport, skill, controversy, legends, thousands of wannabes (if only they had the right setup damnit!), stunning simulators, online, intense competition, great leagues, brilliant formats - it lacks nothing - nothing, that is, except for a common, shared vision. Sim-racers are not card-punters. They're not mouse-mules! They have wheels, damnit, and pedals to boot! And even funky socks almost to boot. And this leads to what is "wrong" with sim-racing - and, of course, what this whole thing is, as our Canadians friends would say, aboot. It's about getting recognition for sim-racing as the tough, competitive and skill-intensive sport that it is. It is about marketing sim-racing to an audience. It is about doing all the things that sim-racing is already doing - but within a unified, collective structure. Sim-racing and the sim-community, as small as it is now, has already splintered and scattered. And its scattered nature is its downfall: dodgy leagues, dodgy forums, dodgy connections, dodgy drivers, dodgy intentions. The further it expands, the further it will scatter. And the more scattered it becomes, the weaker it becomes. Is there a place where one can access all the results from all the good leagues? Is there a place where one can follow the story of every league - the story of every driver, every race? Where one can see a database of active drivers? Where drivers can trace their lifetime statistics in league racing? Where all news from all sites are featured and constantly updated? Is there a place that offers a movie documenting all the week's sim-racing highlights? Is there a magazine that covers sim-racing beyond the standard setup/result of a series format? A magazine that explores sim-racing as a sport, that highlights drivers and leagues and formats? Is there a place where leagues can use a simple one-step programme to upload all their results for a general viewing public? Where a league can, in conjunction with other leagues, attract and maintain an audience base? A place with an independent Arbitration Court to decide on matters the league does not wish to handle? Where drivers will have licenses ensuring the quality of the sim-racing? Where races are broadcast over netradio and webtv? A place that offers a driving school for newbies, a place that consolidates all of the best sim-racing has to offer under one umbrella organization created to promote sim-racing as a sport? No, there is not. Not yet. What is the future of sim-racing? The possibilities are only those the mind cannot conceive - sim-racing stands at the doorstep of a shining new, virtual - ahem - house - it has all the necessary qualities that will attain and sustain an audience base. And with an audience, sim-racing will finally achieve its next evolution: prizes for drivers. But in order to achieve this inevitable step, sim-racing needs co-operation. Co-operation between its leagues and its drivers, all working together and in tandem towards the one goal that must, inevitably, evolve from this sport's humble beginnings: the recognition of the skill, and the eventual remuneration for the dedication, of all serious sim-racers. The nature of sim-racing, over-and-above its status as a sport, is its unique sponsorship potential. Innovative and new ways for business to market their products is in-built within the sim-racing engine. But what is missing is the unification of the common interests of all leagues and all sim-racers. Would football be so popular if it was not covered in a cohesive and direct manner, and if results were strewn across dozens of unrelated and unlinked sites? Of course not - so how can sim-racing even hope to progress in its scattered present? So what do we have? We have a great sport with great leagues, enthusiastic drivers - and no cohesion. We have the potential of something great, but no idea on how to achieve it. And we have the possibility of being pioneers . true internet pioneers -and with this knowledge comes the certainty, as all true pioneers know, that it can, and indeed will, only lead to shame and eventual death by excruciating pain. But in the meantime, think - think of the glory! And think of FILSCA. FILSCA is a club. Founded by its member leagues. Run by its member leagues, for its member drivers. In short, it is a democracy without the overheads. It is a non-profit club that will unify sim-racing. It will offer all that has been mentioned above - and much, much more. It will present itself as the "face" of sim-racing - it will market sim-racing to the world - it will create opportunities for its member leagues to plug themselves to potential sponsors. And with that eventual income, it will create the base for sponsored leagues and paid drivers as well as securing sim-racing's future, a future firmly under the control of sim-racers, rather than any outside organization that will, sooner or later, stumble onto the potential that is the sport of sim-racing. There is only one reason why sim-racing is in this enviable position: its dedicated drivers. There is no reason why these very same people should not be at the forefront of gaining what is there to be grasped: and only united will we achieve the inevitable evolution of sim-sport. The alternatives are bleak - but the opportunities, they are dazzling. Unique FILSCA FILSCA offers a great covenant for those leagues (and their drivers) that choose to enter into this organization and commit themselves to making a difference for all sim-drivers. But what FILSCA offers most is the unified promotion of sim-racing. All that it offers can be seen as tools - tools that will build the foundation that will (groan) sustain the Ideal of sim-racing as a marketable, enjoyable, and ultimately profitable sport. FILSCA: - Landmark in forming first organizing body for sim-sport - Consolidation of sim-racing into one body - Sportsmanship - Best Leagues - Best Drivers - Best Teams - News Site - Driver career statistics - Teams performance statistics - Driver School - Driver Union - Licensing - Magazine - Live Broadcasting via webradio and webcasts - International audience and participation - Non-violent skill-intensive sport - Arbitration Court - Prizes for drivers - 27/4 access to dedicated and protected race servers for FILSCA licensed drivers - FILSCA ROC - uniting the race channels of all simulations In conclusion, FILSCA is an organization created by sim-racers for sim-racers run by sim-racers with the sole goal of overseeing the next step in sim-racing's evolvement - that is, its first tentative steps into semi-professionalism. Once achieved, prizes for drivers will become a reality - and the producers of simulations will have no choice but to consult with its core market - FILSCA and its members. It is the only way forward. And it will happen, inevitably. But with FILSCA, it is the sim-community that will define how we will all progress into the brave new (virtual) future. More about FILSCA at the EURO-LAN, Zeist, 24-26 August 2001, http://gpl.simracingzone.net/gpllan/ (C) FILSCA(TM) (F�d�ration Internationale des Ligues des Simulateurs de Courses Automobiles) 2001 (J. Andersen, M. Barlow, J. Black, M. Gram-Hansen, H. ter Horst, A. Martini, C. Schirmer, E. Sheehan) All rights reserved. Duplication, changes without prior consultation of FILSCA prohibited. http://www.FILSCA.com (to be launched soon with forum and faq)

Remmmmmmmmmmy Whatzuuuuuuuuuuup? :) "Remco Moedt" wrote: | if (m_bFirstTurn==TRUE) | { CrashAllCars(); } | Remco | --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

Wow cool! This is just what we need. Count me in, where do I sign up!? Michael Barlow wrote: > WHITE PAPER: THE FUTURE OF SIMRACING

Some nice ideas I'm sure - all very good on paper. However Where does the money come from? Q3 has ENORMOUS public fan base - running into the 10's, if not 100's of millions. GPL, and N4 combined - probably less than 1% of that. Till there is a fanbase and product caperble of becoming equally popular and well known - there is little or no chance of elevating sim racing to any level higher than what it is now - a load of guys - racing down the net. Doug -- -------------------------------------------- From the mind of Douglas Ellison http://www.douglasellison.co.uk mailto:[email hidden] ICQ:- 127619558 MS:- [email hidden] -------------------------------------------- "Michael Barlow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PLPg7.360616$[email hidden]... > WHITE PAPER: THE FUTURE OF SIMRACING <blah snip>

[email hidden] (Remco Moedt) writes:

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> On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 15:30:02 GMT, Gunnar Horrigmo <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >have you thought about how to handle car-car collisions in > >multiplayer? > > if(m_bFirstTurn==TRUE) > { > CrashAllCars(); > }

for some reason, I think this is extremely funny. :) but I'm drunk again. :) -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 to err is human -- to forgive is bovine.

I think you guys have lots of good ideas but... there are only a few people making a living driving real race cars. Unification of all of the leagues is going to take more than just a dedicated T1. One thing I think you guys will definitely need before proceeding is a rock solid database and league website templates plugged into that database so that all leagues results are consolidated. That way any league could easily start using a standardized website for posting results. A lot of us are in leagues where we are used to driving with the same group of people. I've been in a GPL league for over a year and I wouldn't want to suddenly start racing with a new group of people just because of how I qualify, even if some prize money was involved. >And its scattered nature is its downfall: dodgy > leagues, dodgy forums, dodgy connections, > dodgy drivers, dodgy intentions If I was currently running a league that above statement and the prophetic title of this post may make me reluctant to join the FILSCA. You paint a pretty bleak picture of the current state of the sim racing community but I think it's as strong as it needs to be. > the foundation that will (groan) sustain the Ideal of sim-racing > as a marketable, enjoyable, and ultimately profitable sport I consider myself a pretty serious sim racer buy your Ideal doesn't mesh with mine, except for the "enjoyable" part :) BTW. I really like the idea of the drivers school. Maybe you could get some of the better drivers to volunteer to review newbie replays and give feedback. Good Luck, Kirk House "Michael Barlow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PLPg7.360616$[email hidden]...

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> WHITE PAPER: THE FUTURE OF SIMRACING > > > 21 August 2001 > > "Coming together is a beginning, > staying together is progress and > working together is success." > Henry Ford, founder Ford Motor Company > > (J. Andersen, M. Barlow, J. Black, M. Gram-Hansen, H. ter Horst, A.

Martini,

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> C. Schirmer, E. Sheehan) > All rights reserved. Duplication, changes without prior consultation of > FILSCA prohibited. > http://www.FILSCA.com (to be launched soon with forum and faq) > > > > >

Thank you very much for your positive attitude towards FILSCA. FILSCA was conceptualized and started by sim racers, league managers, and webmasters and hosts who for years have been involved with the sim community. Surely these crucial questions are raised by many, and their answer, apart from that a white paper is not the right place to address them in full detail, would have put the first publication beyond readability. Full details, such as the legal documents, the business plans, the sporting code will be available soon at the homepage http://www.filsca.com. Also a forum for discussion will be opened. However, discussion in other forums, newsgroups, chatroom is strongly encouraged. The concept of FILSCA will be presented this Saturday at the EURO-LAN in Zeist (for URL, look up http://www.filsca.com/filscawhite.html, please). There I and other members of the board will be present. There seem to be some possible misunderstanding as to what FILSCA is meant to be, re. to leagues. The L in FILSCA represents ligues, the french word for leagues. Actually, FILSCA is not a competitor of leagues, but on the contrary the world association of leagues. I am very happy to say that two of the founding members are the Dutch national league of simracers, as well as the informal Danish national sim racing association (simracing.dk) - both have representants in the board that prepared and prepares the legal foundation, with Herko ter Horst, and Mikkel Gram-Hansen - and just yesterday, a French National club was announced to be founded soon and to join FILSCA. All these national association cover more series, and more than one simulation. The name of the success of FILSCA is called team work. FILSCA is not a company but will be founded as a club of equal members, providing an organizational, presentational and lobbying platform for leagues to join forces. Although there is a non-paid management handling all general businesses and representing the members towards third parties, as well as taking care of the exploitation of the rights of the leagues (the management BTW will be elected yearly by the members, i.e. by the leagues), the actual operations - organizing championships, racing series, is undertaken by the single members which are leagues as we know them know. Leagues will stay independant and autonomous. This approach is the result of an analysis of the meager success of the splintered leagues, both in public acceptance and sponsorships or other sorts of turnover that could cover the running costs and provide prizes for drivers. The possible "downside" of this is: there is no company filsca that does the job for the leagues, or the drivers. The leagues own FILSCA, and the leagues need either to do or delegate the necessary work, or pay for it :-) In any case, the synergy effects and the infrastructure will pay off within 2 seconds. The FILSCA website will have two major applications: the filsca management interface (FMI, TM) and the FILSCA content management system (FCMS). Both strictly separate layout from content. The FMI includes a global database where all results from all FILSCA member series are dumped into by one (or a few more) clicks. Also the FILSCA licences are regulated over this. The results are all published on the FILSCA websites, but can also be taken by the series from the database for output on their own web sites. The advantage will be all the possible ripp-offs, ranging from life time driver career statistics over all sims, all leagues, the same for teams, for universal track records statistics, comparisons between car models in various leagues, or any statistical output you can imagine or can�t even think of yet. The database includes already real-life data, and BTW: Volunteers for feeding the database (e.g. with tracks from the sims, chassis from the sims, real life data about tracks, car makes, car models, etc.) are very welcome, just send a mail to [email hidden] or [email hidden] (Herko ter Horst). The Content Management System will enable each person (also drivers, sponsors etc.) (with different rights) to submit content for the FILSCA site, without caring for html. Leagues can of course syndicate this content, and publish the same content on their own home pages, in another layout or the same. This system also allows selling content to third party medias, like traditional press, internet papers etc. No league ever is likely to face any success unless it takes money from the community itself (aka entry fees from the drivers), or is run as a game portal. Both approaches are contradictious to what sim racing at the level of gpl, or nascar 4 is: sport, as they are not open to anyone who wants to compete and as there are no regulations to ensure the quality of the races and the racers. One of the initial motivations for this was that gold diggers might contribute to selling out the sim racing community once a killer application like wsc is on the market. We have the knowledge, we are part of the community, so why just build it up ourselves in order to have control over it? So, FILSCA is meant to be democratic (a club of equal members, leagues), it is open source, its infrastructure (databases, the filsca management interface, the filsca content management system) is programmed by founding member leagues, and by other members of the start-up board, using open source software. This allows FILSCA to be completely independant, and allows the sim racing community to grow by working together. Thus the members of FILSCA have all agreed to emphasize sport over business. FILSCA can start slow, and can grow by the time. What members receive, is that joining forces the spread sim racing community can become a serious partner for sim producers, but also for other sponsors far beyond of what we may imagine now. Being a member of this world organization has a quality stamp: it stands for high level racing that are fair, where cheaters have no chance and are excluded for a life-time. Along with an infrastructure that makes sim racing public aware by enabling the members to present the highlights on a central site and by promoting the cultural values the sim racing community stands for (via broadcasts of the best races, web tv, sum-ups, content syndication, i.e. major events will be announced over many sites, and press releases will be sent to the international press agencies, via the database with its multiple outputs), the market potential is beyond the usual game market. This way, the races of the members of FILSCA will mid- to long-term be able become attractive to the average racing fan. So the board members who conceptualized FILSCA have set a completely different approach than putting up yet another game portal. Game portals are a dying market, and it speaks for the perspectives of sim racers that yet they have not really contributed to the success of portals. Game portals would not care about a proper infrastructure and organizational setup that emphasizes the quality of the sport over the sheer no. of "users". Cheers, Christoph Schirmer Head of the Central Coordination Unit of the FILSCA working groups Kirk House wrote:

Quoted text (56 lines)

> I think you guys have lots of good ideas but... there are only a few > people making a living driving real race cars. Unification of all of the > leagues is going to take more than just a dedicated T1. One thing I think > you guys will definitely need before proceeding is a rock solid database and > league website templates plugged into that database so that all leagues > results are consolidated. That way any league could easily start using a > standardized website for posting results. > A lot of us are in leagues where we are used to driving with the same > group of people. I've been in a GPL league for over a year and I wouldn't > want to suddenly start racing with a new group of people just because of how > I qualify, even if some prize money was involved. > > >And its scattered nature is its downfall: dodgy > > leagues, dodgy forums, dodgy connections, > > dodgy drivers, dodgy intentions > > If I was currently running a league that above statement and the prophetic > title of this post may make me reluctant to join the FILSCA. You paint a > pretty bleak picture of the current state of the sim racing community but I > think it's as strong as it needs to be. > > > the foundation that will (groan) sustain the Ideal of sim-racing > > as a marketable, enjoyable, and ultimately profitable sport > > I consider myself a pretty serious sim racer buy your Ideal doesn't mesh > with mine, except for the "enjoyable" part :) > BTW. I really like the idea of the drivers school. Maybe you could get > some of the better drivers to volunteer to review newbie replays and give > feedback. > > Good Luck, > Kirk House > > "Michael Barlow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:PLPg7.360616$[email hidden]... > > WHITE PAPER: THE FUTURE OF SIMRACING > > > > > > 21 August 2001 > > > > "Coming together is a beginning, > > staying together is progress and > > working together is success." > > Henry Ford, founder Ford Motor Company > > > > (J. Andersen, M. Barlow, J. Black, M. Gram-Hansen, H. ter Horst, A. > Martini, > > C. Schirmer, E. Sheehan) > > All rights reserved. Duplication, changes without prior consultation of > > FILSCA prohibited. > > http://www.FILSCA.com (to be launched soon with forum and faq) > > > > > > > > > >

Thank you very much for your positive attitude towards FILSCA. FILSCA was conceptualized and started by sim racers, league managers, and webmasters and hosts who for years have been involved with the sim community. Surely these crucial questions are raised by many, and their answer, apart from that a white paper is not the right place to address them in full detail, would have put the first publication beyond readability. Full details, such as the legal documents, the business plans, the sporting code will be available soon at the homepage http://www.filsca.com. Also a forum for discussion will be opened. However, discussion in other forums, newsgroups, chatroom is strongly encouraged. The concept of FILSCA will be presented this Saturday at the EURO-LAN in Zeist (for URL, look up http://www.filsca.com/filscawhite.html, please). There I and other members of the board will be present. There seem to be some possible misunderstanding as to what FILSCA is meant to be, re. to leagues. The L in FILSCA represents ligues, the french word for leagues. Actually, FILSCA is not a competitor of leagues, but on the contrary the world association of leagues. I am very happy to say that two of the founding members are the Dutch national league of simracers, as well as the informal Danish national sim racing association (simracing.dk) - both have representants in the board that prepared and prepares the legal foundation, with Herko ter Horst, and Mikkel Gram-Hansen - and just yesterday, a French National club was announced to be founded soon and to join FILSCA. All these national association cover more series, and more than one simulation. The name of the success of FILSCA is called team work. FILSCA is not a company but will be founded as a club of equal members, providing an organizational, presentational and lobbying platform for leagues to join forces. Although there is a non-paid management handling all general businesses and representing the members towards third parties, as well as taking care of the exploitation of the rights of the leagues (the management BTW will be elected yearly by the members, i.e. by the leagues), the actual operations - organizing championships, racing series, is undertaken by the single members which are leagues as we know them know. Leagues will stay independant and autonomous. This approach is the result of an analysis of the meager success of the splintered leagues, both in public acceptance and sponsorships or other sorts of turnover that could cover the running costs and provide prizes for drivers. The possible "downside" of this is: there is no company filsca that does the job for the leagues, or the drivers. The leagues own FILSCA, and the leagues need either to do or delegate the necessary work, or pay for it :-) In any case, the synergy effects and the infrastructure will pay off within 2 seconds. The FILSCA website will have two major applications: the filsca management interface (FMI, TM) and the FILSCA content management system (FCMS). Both strictly separate layout from content. The FMI includes a global database where all results from all FILSCA member series are dumped into by one (or a few more) clicks. Also the FILSCA licences are regulated over this. The results are all published on the FILSCA websites, but can also be taken by the series from the database for output on their own web sites. The advantage will be all the possible ripp-offs, ranging from life time driver career statistics over all sims, all leagues, the same for teams, for universal track records statistics, comparisons between car models in various leagues, or any statistical output you can imagine or can�t even think of yet. The database includes already real-life data, and BTW: Volunteers for feeding the database (e.g. with tracks from the sims, chassis from the sims, real life data about tracks, car makes, car models, etc.) are very welcome, just send a mail to [email hidden] or [email hidden] (Herko ter Horst). The Content Management System will enable each person (also drivers, sponsors etc.) (with different rights) to submit content for the FILSCA site, without caring for html. Leagues can of course syndicate this content, and publish the same content on their own home pages, in another layout or the same. This system also allows selling content to third party medias, like traditional press, internet papers etc. No league ever is likely to face any success unless it takes money from the community itself (aka entry fees from the drivers), or is run as a game portal. Both approaches are contradictious to what sim racing at the level of gpl, or nascar 4 is: sport, as they are not open to anyone who wants to compete and as there are no regulations to ensure the quality of the races and the racers. One of the initial motivations for this was that gold diggers might contribute to selling out the sim racing community once a killer application like wsc is on the market. We have the knowledge, we are part of the community, so why just build it up ourselves in order to have control over it? So, FILSCA is meant to be democratic (a club of equal members, leagues), it is open source, its infrastructure (databases, the filsca management interface, the filsca content management system) is programmed by founding member leagues, and by other members of the start-up board, using open source software. This allows FILSCA to be completely independant, and allows the sim racing community to grow by working together. Thus the members of FILSCA have all agreed to emphasize sport over business. FILSCA can start slow, and can grow by the time. What members receive, is that joining forces the spread sim racing community can become a serious partner for sim producers, but also for other sponsors far beyond of what we may imagine now. Being a member of this world organization has a quality stamp: it stands for high level racing that are fair, where cheaters have no chance and are excluded for a life-time. Along with an infrastructure that makes sim racing public aware by enabling the members to present the highlights on a central site and by promoting the cultural values the sim racing community stands for (via broadcasts of the best races, web tv, sum-ups, content syndication, i.e. major events will be announced over many sites, and press releases will be sent to the international press agencies, via the database with its multiple outputs), the market potential is beyond the usual game market. This way, the races of the members of FILSCA will mid- to long-term be able become attractive to the average racing fan. So the board members who conceptualized FILSCA have set a completely different approach than putting up yet another game portal. Game portals are a dying market, and it speaks for the perspectives of sim racers that yet they have not really contributed to the success of portals. Game portals would not care about a proper infrastructure and organizational setup that emphasizes the quality of the sport over the sheer no. of "users". Cheers, Christoph Schirmer Head of the Central Coordination Unit of the FILSCA working groups Kirk House wrote:

Quoted text (56 lines)

> I think you guys have lots of good ideas but... there are only a few > people making a living driving real race cars. Unification of all of the > leagues is going to take more than just a dedicated T1. One thing I think > you guys will definitely need before proceeding is a rock solid database and > league website templates plugged into that database so that all leagues > results are consolidated. That way any league could easily start using a > standardized website for posting results. > A lot of us are in leagues where we are used to driving with the same > group of people. I've been in a GPL league for over a year and I wouldn't > want to suddenly start racing with a new group of people just because of how > I qualify, even if some prize money was involved. > > >And its scattered nature is its downfall: dodgy > > leagues, dodgy forums, dodgy connections, > > dodgy drivers, dodgy intentions > > If I was currently running a league that above statement and the prophetic > title of this post may make me reluctant to join the FILSCA. You paint a > pretty bleak picture of the current state of the sim racing community but I > think it's as strong as it needs to be. > > > the foundation that will (groan) sustain the Ideal of sim-racing > > as a marketable, enjoyable, and ultimately profitable sport > > I consider myself a pretty serious sim racer buy your Ideal doesn't mesh > with mine, except for the "enjoyable" part :) > BTW. I really like the idea of the drivers school. Maybe you could get > some of the better drivers to volunteer to review newbie replays and give > feedback. > > Good Luck, > Kirk House > > "Michael Barlow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:PLPg7.360616$[email hidden]... > > WHITE PAPER: THE FUTURE OF SIMRACING > > > > > > 21 August 2001 > > > > "Coming together is a beginning, > > staying together is progress and > > working together is success." > > Henry Ford, founder Ford Motor Company > > > > (J. Andersen, M. Barlow, J. Black, M. Gram-Hansen, H. ter Horst, A. > Martini, > > C. Schirmer, E. Sheehan) > > All rights reserved. Duplication, changes without prior consultation of > > FILSCA prohibited. > > http://www.FILSCA.com (to be launched soon with forum and faq) > > > > > > > > > >

Kirk House wrote:

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> I think you guys have lots of good ideas but... there are only a few > people making a living driving real race cars. Unification of all of the > leagues is going to take more than just a dedicated T1. One thing I think > you guys will definitely need before proceeding is a rock solid database and > league website templates plugged into that database so that all leagues > results are consolidated. That way any league could easily start using a > standardized website for posting results. > A lot of us are in leagues where we are used to driving with the same > group of people. I've been in a GPL league for over a year and I wouldn't > want to suddenly start racing with a new group of people just because of how > I qualify, even if some prize money was involved. > > >And its scattered nature is its downfall: dodgy > > leagues, dodgy forums, dodgy connections, > > dodgy drivers, dodgy intentions > > If I was currently running a league that above statement and the prophetic > title of this post may make me reluctant to join the FILSCA. You paint a > pretty bleak picture of the current state of the sim racing community but I > think it's as strong as it needs to be. > > > the foundation that will (groan) sustain the Ideal of sim-racing > > as a marketable, enjoyable, and ultimately profitable sport > > I consider myself a pretty serious sim racer buy your Ideal doesn't mesh > with mine, except for the "enjoyable" part :) > BTW. I really like the idea of the drivers school. Maybe you could get > some of the better drivers to volunteer to review newbie replays and give > feedback. > > Good Luck, > Kirk House > > "Michael Barlow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:PLPg7.360616$[email hidden]... > > WHITE PAPER: THE FUTURE OF SIMRACING > > > > > > 21 August 2001 > > > > "Coming together is a beginning, > > staying together is progress and > > working together is success." > > Henry Ford, founder Ford Motor Company > > > > (J. Andersen, M. Barlow, J. Black, M. Gram-Hansen, H. ter Horst, A. > Martini, > > C. Schirmer, E. Sheehan) > > All rights reserved. Duplication, changes without prior consultation of > > FILSCA prohibited. > > http://www.FILSCA.com (to be launched soon with forum and faq) > > > > > > > > > >

Thom j. wrote in message ... >Ok how bout after the explosion you get a 110v of current shot >into you via your FF or even non-FF wheel? huh? huh??huh?? :) > What about Europeans. Do we get 240v? Matt

On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 21:00:25 GMT, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Don't know how Ruud is doing it, but normally the host or server is the >one who tells the clients whether they have a collision or not, for >precisely that reason. Right. And for latency, well, as the stuff is bounding box anyway, there's a margin of error ofcourse. Don't know how incredibly bad it will be with modem connections. Perhaps I'd reduce the bounding boxes a little bit so you collide relatively late. Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:53:46 GMT, [email hidden] (Remco Moedt) wrote:

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>On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 15:30:02 GMT, Gunnar Horrigmo <[email hidden]> >wrote: > >>have you thought about how to handle car-car collisions in >>multiplayer? > >if(m_bFirstTurn==TRUE) >{ > CrashAllCars(); >} || else!

Why can't we all get along, not collide with eachother's cars, and I can get away with secretly not implementing it until v0.8 when the first online crash happens when some ex-N4 onliners try Racer? ;-) Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

Sure!!!!!!!!!! Why not?? :) "Matt Smith" wrote:

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| What about Europeans. Do we get 240v? | | Matt | Thom j. wrote in message ... | >Ok how bout after the explosion you get a 110v of current shot | >into you via your FF or even non-FF wheel? huh? huh??huh?? :)

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.273 / Virus Database: 143 - Release Date: 8/16/2001

Douglas Ellison <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:M9Xg7.33951$[email hidden]... > Some nice ideas I'm sure - all very good on paper. > > However > > Where does the money come from? Occurred to me just recently... I race R/C model cars at club and regional level. This, I would argue, is comparable to simracing: it's not the real thing but it's very close in many respects. In R/C there are national as well as world championships, supported by national governing bodies (such as the BRCA, www.brca.org) which have quite a significant following - but only within the sport. The BRCA, at least, is run by volunteers AFAIK. Most drivers at my level and above are sponsored by the myriad of companies making products for R/C cars, as are several of the major race series. *However*, to the best of my knowledge there is little-to-no financial involvement from sources which do not have a direct interest. I suspect that this is fundamentally the same for simracing. The general public are not going to follow this type of racing, and until they do there is no reason for the major sponsors to become involved. It may also be that there is less of a sponsorship market for simmers - probably limited to wheel/pedal manufacturers, and possibly video card & processor companies and the like. Compare this to car, motor, battery, radio gear, speed control, 'hop-up', bodyshell mfrs in R/C all of whom are getting significant income every time we crash heavily or whenever they release an 'improved' product... Not wishing to put a downer on people's ideas and ambitions, but my suspicion is that both hobbies will remain as just that. Jonny

In article <3b848cc9$0$77212$[email hidden]>, "Kirk House" <[email hidden]> writes: >BTW. I really like the idea of the drivers school. Maybe you could get >some of the better drivers to volunteer to review newbie replays and give >feedback. > You're HIRED. Just make sure you help *team members* first...<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 23:26:27 GMT, "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote: >Ok how bout after the explosion you get a 110v of current shot >into you via your FF or even non-FF wheel? huh? huh??huh?? :) Sounds great! Scott Johnson "Science suggests that beer and 98 degree heat do not enhance your swimming ability, but I think it's a really, really good idea for people to test that theory as often as possible. What are you, a pussy? You can do it, champ." -- Rev. Syd Midnight

"Ruud van Gaal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 21:00:25 GMT, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Don't know how Ruud is doing it, but normally the host or server isthe

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> >one who tells the clients whether they have a collision or not, for > >precisely that reason. > > Right. > And for latency, well, as the stuff is bounding box anyway, there's a > margin of error ofcourse. Don't know how incredibly bad it will be > with modem connections. Perhaps I'd reduce the bounding boxes a little > bit so you collide relatively late. >

Depends on how complicated you want to get. I'm not familiar with coding for racing sims, but typically in shooters like the Quake series the server and all of the clients are each running in their own frames, asynchronously to all the others, and the engine interpolates or extrapolates position and velocity as necessary to resolve them to the same time base. Because it is doing this, you can warp the time base as necessary to correct for latency.

The classic problem is that unlike Quake people, racecars travelling at 200 MPH go about 90 m/s / 1000 = 9 cm per millisecond... so at 100 ms latency, the car will have travelled 9 meters (about 30 feet) since the last position update, even though they may be racing with a 1 foot gap between them... So you of course have to do extrapolation/prediction, but the higher-order your extrapolation, the more wildly off your prediction will be if a car makes a little twitch or correction (and hitting a wall or something can effect a huge acceleration on the car)... it also depends on whether you extrapolate in generic 3D space or in racing-line-space--these will have different strengths and weaknesses... It still is a lot easier than writing AI, though, especially if you drop modem support. Plus, LAN play is a good place to start, as you can get away with pretty brain-dead approaches in this environment... Good luck--your Racer program looks pretty impressive already! -Dave Pollatsek MGI "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:P7gh7.5431$[email hidden]...

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> "Ruud van Gaal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 21:00:25 GMT, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> > > wrote: > > > > >Don't know how Ruud is doing it, but normally the host or server is > the > > >one who tells the clients whether they have a collision or not, for > > >precisely that reason. > > > > Right. > > And for latency, well, as the stuff is bounding box anyway, there's a > > margin of error ofcourse. Don't know how incredibly bad it will be > > with modem connections. Perhaps I'd reduce the bounding boxes a little > > bit so you collide relatively late. > > > > Depends on how complicated you want to get. I'm not familiar with > coding for racing sims, but typically in shooters like the Quake series > the server and all of the clients are each running in their own frames, > asynchronously to all the others, and the engine interpolates or > extrapolates position and velocity as necessary to resolve them to the > same time base. Because it is doing this, you can warp the time base as > necessary to correct for latency. >

Michael Barlow <[email hidden]> wrote on 22 Aug 2001: > WHITE PAPER: THE FUTURE OF SIMRACING<snip> Very interesting. It certainly wouldn't be for me - I race for fun and fun alone - but I don't see why those who do want something a little more serious shouldn't have it... so long as they don't then try to impose their values on everyone else (cue comments about every GPL-er doing that already!). The driving school is a great idea, provided that it has genuine credibility. Assuming you'll be issuing creedits or licences, they have to carry weight or they'll be useless. That means you'll need instructors of high standing, who can commit themselves totally. If you can find that, you could do well. -- "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh. Nominations for the rest of this sig are currently being accepted...

Christoph Schirmer <[email hidden]> wrote on 23 Aug 2001: <snip> > The FILSCA website will have two major applications: the filsca > management interface (FMI, TM)<snip> TM? As in trademark? Have you registered it? Because otherwise (in the UK, at least) it hasn't got much value. >The advantage will be all the possible ripp-offs,<snip> I think you might consider changing that word, given what "ripoffs" means in English! (Theft, basically.)

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> The Content Management System will enable each person (also > drivers, sponsors etc.) (with different rights) to submit content > for the FILSCA site, without caring for html. Leagues can of course > syndicate this content, and publish the same content on their own > home pages, in another layout or the same. This system also allows > selling content to third party medias, like traditional press, > internet papers etc.

<snip> Be very, very careful about this. In the UK at the moment, football is trying to stop even non-commercial fansites using certain information (club badges, fixture lists etc) on their pages without paying (a lot) for a licence. It's very, *very* unpopular. Of course, a straight ripoff of the design would be unacceptable anywhere, but I think you'd be totally unreasonable if you threatened a non-commercial site for posting (for example) championship standings. >Being a member of this world > organization has a quality stamp: it stands for high level racing > that are fair, where cheaters have no chance and are excluded for a > life-time. <snip> Be careful about this, too - sooner or later, you'll get some idiot who thinks they've been excluded unfairly, and will threaten legal action. Look at the mess athletics is in because of drug-taking athletes calling in the lawyers. I'm sure you've thought about all this already, and I am not trying to put you down - I think you're doing a good thing - but don't expect it to be an easy ride, that's all. Good luck! -- "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh. Nominations for the rest of this sig are currently being accepted...

Well you certainly have much more experience with this than I do, but please humor me and let me explain my thinking anyway. As long as velocities are constant, we can predict everything with 100% accuracy using extrapolation. We can predict position, we can predict collisions with other vehicles, and we can predict collisions with stationary objects. This is true no matter what speed the objects are going, as long as the velocities are constant. So the only error that can accumulate is due to unpredicted accelerations. And the only unpredicted accelerations are due to player input, because, again, we can predict collisions. So the error is a function of the maximum acceleration the vehicle is capable of, which I gather from another thread in this newsgroup is about 4G. If the distance error is only due to acceleration, then we can calculate it using the familiar (x = 1/2 * a * t^2) formula. The distance error caused by a 4G acceleration in 100 msec would be (sorry I can only think in english units) x = 0.5 * (4 * 32.2) * (0.1)^2 = 0.644 feet. So I am going to accumulate at most about 8 inches of positional error over a 100 msec interval. And also this is not true positional error, it is positional error between where the client thinks he is and where the server thinks he is. The actual positional error at the server would be a function of the update rate, not the latency. If a client is sending 30 updates per second, which is not unreasonable for a modem, the maximum error is x = 0.5 * (4 * 32.2) * (0.033)^2 = 0.072 feet, or about 0.85 inches. That doesn't seem all that bad to me. But admittedly the real issue is client side error, because that's what makes it difficult to drive. And the client side error could be doubled from what I have shown above if both the client and the server are doing prediction, which is usually the case. Also the client side error in position relative to another player would be due to the sum of their one-way latencies, or IOW the average of their pings. So I guess what I am saying is that even though it is not an ideal solution, I think it would still be just as applicable to a racing or even a flying sim as it is to shooters. Regards, Hal "Dave Pollatsek" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3b859a96$0$318$[email hidden]... > The classic problem is that unlike Quake people, racecars travellingat 200 > MPH go about 90 m/s / 1000 = 9 cm per millisecond... > so at 100 ms latency, the car will have travelled 9 meters (about 30feet) > since the last position update, even though they may be racing with a1 foot > gap between them... > So you of course have to do extrapolation/prediction, but thehigher-order > your extrapolation, the more wildly off your prediction will be if acar > makes a little twitch or correction (and hitting a wall or somethingcan > effect a huge acceleration on the car)... it also depends on whetheryou > extrapolate in generic 3D space or in racing-line-space--these willhave > different strengths and weaknesses... > > It still is a lot easier than writing AI, though, especially if youdrop > modem support. Plus, LAN play is a good place to start, as you canget away

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> with pretty brain-dead approaches in this environment... > Good luck--your Racer program looks pretty impressive already! > > -Dave Pollatsek > MGI > > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:P7gh7.5431$[email hidden]... > > "Ruud van Gaal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 21:00:25 GMT, "Haqsau"

<[email hidden]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > >Don't know how Ruud is doing it, but normally the host or serveris > > the > > > >one who tells the clients whether they have a collision or not,for > > > >precisely that reason. > > > > > > Right. > > > And for latency, well, as the stuff is bounding box anyway,there's a > > > margin of error ofcourse. Don't know how incredibly bad it will be > > > with modem connections. Perhaps I'd reduce the bounding boxes alittle > > > bit so you collide relatively late. > > > > > > > Depends on how complicated you want to get. I'm not familiar with > > coding for racing sims, but typically in shooters like the Quakeseries > > the server and all of the clients are each running in their ownframes, > > asynchronously to all the others, and the engine interpolates or > > extrapolates position and velocity as necessary to resolve them tothe > > same time base. Because it is doing this, you can warp the timebase as > > necessary to correct for latency. > > > >

On Thu, 23 Aug 2001 19:30:33 -0500, "Dave Pollatsek" <[email hidden]> wrote: >The classic problem is that unlike Quake people, racecars travelling at 200 >MPH go about 90 m/s / 1000 = 9 cm per millisecond... >so at 100 ms latency, the car will have travelled 9 meters (about 30 feet) >since the last position update, even though they may be racing with a 1 foot >gap between them... Still, at this speed most of times you won't deviate as much from the path but use smooth lines. I hope. ;-) I'll just have to make some (I have a 10Hz update version now without interpolation using LAN) and see how it's behaving, whether I need acceleration as well as velocity (so while turning and loss of connection you still get the car turning at every client, instead of driving linear lines, like I once thought I saw happen in GPL). >So you of course have to do extrapolation/prediction, but the higher-order >your extrapolation, the more wildly off your prediction will be if a car >makes a little twitch or correction (and hitting a wall or something can >effect a huge acceleration on the car)... it also depends on whether you >extrapolate in generic 3D space or in racing-line-space--these will have >different strengths and weaknesses... Yes, I'll just start and see where I need improvements given feedback from people testing it (on a LAN only probably for the next version). A wall, hm. >It still is a lot easier than writing AI, though, especially if you drop >modem support. Plus, LAN play is a good place to start, as you can get away >with pretty brain-dead approaches in this environment... Sure is. :) In fact, all games are now networked in a sense. Hope everybody got his/hers TCP/IP installed. >Good luck--your Racer program looks pretty impressive already! Thanks! Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

On Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:14:55 GMT, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Depends on how complicated you want to get. I'm not familiar with >coding for racing sims, but typically in shooters like the Quake series >the server and all of the clients are each running in their own frames, >asynchronously to all the others, and the engine interpolates or >extrapolates position and velocity as necessary to resolve them to the >same time base. Because it is doing this, you can warp the time base as >necessary to correct for latency.

Yes, most important thing is to have the clients drive like they normally do; server acknowledges before turning are just much too slow. As it is now, the clients will receive updates from the server, but the clients do very little with the data; they just draw the cars, and let you play like you normally do. The server will then sent out info on collisions, but perhaps a client may ultimately do a Request for Collision or something. Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

On Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:29:50 +0200, Christoph Schirmer <[email hidden]> wrote: <HUGE SNIP> Jesus, some beat Tom........ Regards, Anthony Bulloch

"Ruud van Gaal" wrote...

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> On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:47:56 GMT, "Thom j." <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Thanx for the info & Racer Ruud!! I like it! :) It is growing on > >me more every lap! Great on the Multiplayer! I thought AI was > >easier but I am no programmer so I dont know sqwat about it! > >Again a job well done & the price is right!! :) > > Thanks! :) > AI has multiple cars, like Multiplayer. For AI, you must make some > kind of robot to let them drive the car, or get replays (which aren't > in yet) and use that as a guiding line. And tweak ad infinitum. > Ofcourse multiplayer has its problems once you hit modem connections > and lag, but in my eyes it's less uncontrollable than the improvement > potential you have in AI (you can improve AI until you die I think).

Ruud, Reading your reply made me think of an method that I don't think has been tried yet - real artificial intelligence ("TrueAI"tm :-) that uses the physics model to learn how to drive the cars fast by taking over the control inputs and driving round the track, experimenting in an analogue of the way humans learn. Different scenarios could be used to learn how to drive flat out, drive at 9/10ths to preserve the car, cope with cold tyres or rain, overtake, block and so on. Having established values for the parameters, duplicated simpler versions of the process would be used for multi-AI-player racing. Or the full TrueAI could run on a separate computer - it would be interesting to see how it got on in a Turing Test, and against the "Aliens" (not that well, I suspect). Of course, the AI driver would need an AI race engineer to tweak the set-up for him - this might prove useful to those like me (and Jim Clark :-O ) who'd rather just drive the car. Sounds like fun. It can't be as difficult as what you've taken on. When I've got a couple of months (years?) to spare I might have a go! -- Tony Whitley GPLRank -0.54 MonsterRank 407 and falling...

On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:32:15 +0100, "Tony Whitley" <[email hidden]. c o . u k> wrote:

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>Reading your reply made me think of an method that I don't think has been >tried yet - real artificial intelligence ("TrueAI"tm :-) that uses the >physics model to learn how to drive the cars fast by taking over the control >inputs and driving round the track, experimenting in an analogue of the way >humans learn. Different scenarios could be used to learn how to drive flat >out, drive at 9/10ths to preserve the car, cope with cold tyres or rain, >overtake, block and so on. Having established values for the parameters, >duplicated simpler versions of the process would be used for multi-AI-player >racing. Or the full TrueAI could run on a separate computer - it would be >interesting to see how it got on in a Turing Test, and against the "Aliens" >(not that well, I suspect).

Hm, you have an URL with some sample TrueAI classes? ;-) I don't think passing a Turing test would make the driver be able to drive; a lot of humans are worse at driving than they are at a Turing test, hehe. :) >Of course, the AI driver would need an AI race engineer to tweak the set-up >for him - this might prove useful to those like me (and Jim Clark :-O ) >who'd rather just drive the car. Ok, I'll create the .h file, you do the .cpp ok? >Sounds like fun. It can't be as difficult as what you've taken on. When I've >got a couple of months (years?) to spare I might have a go! Sure thing, but actually I have a feeling that the CPU's aren't fast enough yet to do it like this (I accidentally used full physics on a network car, hm). Still, robots are the way of the future. The distant future. The oh so distant future. :) Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

This is not so difficult and could be done whilst not racing and not in real time. A program which creates the best driving line by trial and error could attempt to get a car to perform as well as possible ( and this includes adjusting the setup as well as driving lines and throttle gear brake positions). Several possible lines could be calculated which are then saved for use in the race similar to those used in GPL. I think until we can have computers fast enough to to allow the AI to work in realtime during the race this is the best that we can hope to achieve. Obviously once other factors such as other cars are involved the AI has to choose which of its possible lines to use and would have some simple procedures to say brake early if the car in front is braking, and to allow for slipstreaming.

On 27 Aug 2001 21:31:52 -0700, [email hidden] (Stephen) wrote: >This is not so difficult and could be done whilst not racing and not >in real time. A program which creates the best driving line by trial >and error could attempt to get a car to perform as well as possible ( >and this includes adjusting the setup as well as driving lines and >throttle gear brake positions). Yes, offline, hm, but certainly not a piece of trivial software! :) I'd rather drive some laps on my own and use that (although far less than perfect) as a basis for AI lines. Or call Rent-a-Huttu and let the aliens drive for a while and use those replays. ;-) >I think until we can have computers fast enough to to allow the AI to >work in realtime during the race this is the best that we can hope to >achieve. It's a bit like the physics, although worse. Physics were constrained by the CPU. Now, the physics are less and less constrained, since most of the work at this point is in the graphics. Same for AI; they must use both the physics and react on that. Perhaps it's not all that bad, but when you have 43 cars on the track... it's still better to take some shortcuts yes. Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/

http://www.adams.com/product/partner/ Then select the product from the ADAMS Product list called "driver" --this is an AI driver...but it takes hours of cpu time to drive one lap of a race track. On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Ruud van Gaal wrote:

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> On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:32:15 +0100, "Tony Whitley" > <[email hidden]. c o . u k> wrote: > > >Reading your reply made me think of an method that I don't think has been > >tried yet - real artificial intelligence ("TrueAI"tm :-) that uses the > >physics model to learn how to drive the cars fast by taking over the control > >inputs and driving round the track, experimenting in an analogue of the way > >humans learn. Different scenarios could be used to learn how to drive flat > >out, drive at 9/10ths to preserve the car, cope with cold tyres or rain, > >overtake, block and so on. Having established values for the parameters, > >duplicated simpler versions of the process would be used for multi-AI-player > >racing. Or the full TrueAI could run on a separate computer - it would be > >interesting to see how it got on in a Turing Test, and against the "Aliens" > >(not that well, I suspect). > > Hm, you have an URL with some sample TrueAI classes? ;-) > I don't think passing a Turing test would make the driver be able to > drive; a lot of humans are worse at driving than they are at a Turing > test, hehe. :) > > >Of course, the AI driver would need an AI race engineer to tweak the set-up > >for him - this might prove useful to those like me (and Jim Clark :-O ) > >who'd rather just drive the car. > > Ok, I'll create the .h file, you do the .cpp ok? > > >Sounds like fun. It can't be as difficult as what you've taken on. When I've > >got a couple of months (years?) to spare I might have a go! > > Sure thing, but actually I have a feeling that the CPU's aren't fast > enough yet to do it like this (I accidentally used full physics on a > network car, hm). Still, robots are the way of the future. The distant > future. The oh so distant future. :) > > > Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 > Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ > Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/ > >

"Doug Milliken" wrote... > > http://www.adams.com/product/partner/ > > Then select the product from the ADAMS Product list called "driver" --this > is an AI driver...but it takes hours of cpu time to drive one lap of arace > track.Maybe a slight overkill for this :-) I've been looking at the RARS project (http://rars.sourceforge.net/) but although the "robots" are much less processor-intensive most of them seem to rely on their own calculation of the physics model than simulating the way a human learns a race track. The damage model is somewhat less realistic than Test Drive too. It is food for thought though - I'll simply get TrueAI to the point that it can whip all the RARS opposition and then hand it over to Ruud to integrate into Racer! -- Tony Whitley P.S. Don't hold your breath! > > On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Ruud van Gaal wrote: > > > On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:32:15 +0100, "Tony Whitley" > > <[email hidden]. c o . u k> wrote: > > > > >Reading your reply made me think of an method that I don't think has been > > >tried yet - real artificial intelligence ("TrueAI"tm :-) that uses the > > >physics model to learn how to drive the cars fast by taking over the control > > >inputs and driving round the track, experimenting in an analogue of the way > > >humans learn. Different scenarios could be used to learn how to drive flat > > >out, drive at 9/10ths to preserve the car, cope with cold tyres or rain, > > >overtake, block and so on. Having established values for the parameters, > > >duplicated simpler versions of the process would be used for multi-AI-player > > >racing. Or the full TrueAI could run on a separate computer - it would be > > >interesting to see how it got on in a Turing Test, and against the "Aliens" > > >(not that well, I suspect). > > > > Hm, you have an URL with some sample TrueAI classes? ;-) > > I don't think passing a Turing test would make the driver be able to > > drive; a lot of humans are worse at driving than they are at a Turing > > test, hehe. :) > > > > >Of course, the AI driver would need an AI race engineer to tweak the set-up > > >for him - this might prove useful to those like me (and Jim Clark :-O ) > > >who'd rather just drive the car. > > > > Ok, I'll create the .h file, you do the .cpp ok? > > > > >Sounds like fun. It can't be as difficult as what you've taken on. When I've > > >got a couple of months (years?) to spare I might have a go! > > > > Sure thing, but actually I have a feeling that the CPU's aren't fast > > enough yet to do it like this (I accidentally used full physics on a > > network car, hm). Still, robots are the way of the future. The distant > > future. The oh so distant future. :) > > > > > > Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.25 > > Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ > > Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/ > > > > >

On Mon, 3 Sep 2001 19:10:27 +0100, "Tony Whitley" <[email hidden]. c o . u k> wrote:

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> >"Doug Milliken" wrote... >> >> http://www.adams.com/product/partner/ >> >> Then select the product from the ADAMS Product list called "driver" --this >> is an AI driver...but it takes hours of cpu time to drive one lap of a >race >> track.

Wow, it's on SGI. No wonder it takes hours these days. ;-) >Maybe a slight overkill for this :-) Just a bit. Especially considering 1 player and 42 AI players on the track? ;-) > I've been looking at the RARS project >(http://rars.sourceforge.net/) but although the "robots" are much less >processor-intensive most of them seem to rely on their own calculation of >the physics model than simulating the way a human learns a race track. RARS uses the force=-slipVelocity*frictionCoefficient technique IIRC. Great stable method, but a bit too simplistic. In Racer, I'd say the physics are too complex by now to anticipate like that, and either a (p)replay should be targeted or real driver characteristics should be simulated. Ofcourse, the latter one will easily fail people's expectations quickly. Fortunately internet multiplayer is easier and more fun. But ofcourse, one day, an AI driver (which actually dares to push the throttle) should be initiated. Just fill in the blanks in rrobot.cpp. ;-) > The >damage model is somewhat less realistic than Test Drive too. It is food for >thought though - I'll simply get TrueAI to the point that it can whip all >the RARS opposition and then hand it over to Ruud to integrate into Racer! That would be most helpful. :) Ruud van Gaal Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/