OT: Nascar Investigation a Diversion.

I just read the rundown of what Nascars findings were into the death of Dale Eranhardt. Funny....they seem to spend alot of time talking about the seperation of the seatbelt, yet, they then say that they can't point to the seatbelt as being the sole cause of his death. They still wont mandate the use of the HANS device. They wont say weather a HANS device, absolutely, or probably, would have saved his life....they obviously dont want to. Mike Helton says that madating HANS at this time is not wise, based on production schedules, and the understanding to the entirety of their uses. Well, other racing series have them mandated......so I guess the people involved in those series' are able to understand how these things can be used, better than certain nascar people......why...coz their iq's are higher.....coz they aint hicks.......something else perhaps ? Smoke and fucking mirrors.

Why should NASCAR mandate the HANS device? These drivers are big boys and if they want to use the HANS or another device they certainly can. If they don't they certainly know the risks. Racing is a dangerous game, people die, let the drivers decide what they want. I'd be wearing one... Just my opinion, you mileage may vary. -- Looking for some good online Nascar 4 Racing? Join the Stock Car Pro Racing Club. http://www.scprc.com Racing on Sundays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays. "Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:HwKg7.953$[email hidden]... > I just read the rundown of what Nascars findings were into the death of Dale > Eranhardt. > > Funny....they seem to spend alot of time talking about the seperation of the > seatbelt, yet, they then say that they can't point to the seatbelt as being > the sole cause of his death. > > They still wont mandate the use of the HANS device. > > They wont say weather a HANS device, absolutely, or probably, would have > saved his life....they obviously dont want to. > > Mike Helton says that madating HANS at this time is not wise, based on > production schedules, and the understanding to the entirety of their uses. > > Well, other racing series have them mandated......so I guess the people > involved in those series' are able to understand how these things can be > used, better than certain nascar people......why...coz their iq's are > higher.....coz they aint hicks.......something else perhaps ? > > Smoke and fucking mirrors. > >

Hey at least they are putting a black box in the car! (not sure how that would've saved DE but what the hay!)

Yeah, they tip toed around it. I agree with the synopsis of the event and the aggrevating factors that caused his death: 1) Speed, I contend he was traveling faster than 156-161 when the first impact occured 2) The first impact was car-to-car with the 36, who was also going very fast 3) 2nd Impact with the wall was at a "critical" angle 4) The seatbelt "dumped" and was sheared due to the incorrect installation and the resulting load placed on it at the adjuster position. Things I am curious about (aside from the stated estimated speed at which the car contacted the wall) 1) The steering wheel: could have been bent by his hands in a "death" grip, excuse the term. I've seen wheels out of cars where there was no other contact to the wheel and it came out bent. A racer about to hit the wall will grab a wheel very tight and can bend it with sheer inertia. DW commented on this and I agree. 2) Tell us exactly what G-load is necessary to "dump" and sheer a belt like that. After revelaing the necessary load, tell us if the estimated speed and weight of the car was enough to produce such a load. 3) Tell us why you think the "Humpy Bumper" is not a good thing as stated. In the 18 Feb incident it may not have helped since it was a side-on car-to-car impact that got Dale out of position within the car initally, and ultimately set the 3 cars' angle of approach to the wall, but you can't tell me that a crushable front end wouldn't have helped with the wall impact. Had the 36 car also had a crushable front, less energy would have been transferred to the 3 car as well. I'm not the expert but I think we should madate a head and neack restraint. Choose your own style/brand, have the new NASCAR safety folks at DJs old shop approve the different designs. I also think crush zones, Humpy Bumpers, whatever, should be looked at with more than the nose up attention it is getting now. Also mandate correct installation of the safety harnesses, whether or not the drivers are "comfortable" using them. Make it a part of the tech line. Would all this have saved DE? Maybe, maybe not, it was afterall a freakish accident. I think better control over harness installation and some type of head and neck restraint would have increased the odds of survival. NASCAR will never be totally safe, just look at cart, the star kid that was killed a few years back when a wheel landed on him after he hit a concrete barrier. I bet he was wearing a HANS and was in a impact absorbant carbon fibre monocoque car and still lost his life. If we know of things that will increase the likelihood of survival, we should at least look hard at them rather than shun them because we don't know enough about them, take those hundreds of millions you're raking in and find out about them NASCAR! Incubus <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:HwKg7.953$[email hidden]... > I just read the rundown of what Nascars findings were into the death ofDale > Eranhardt. > > Funny....they seem to spend alot of time talking about the seperation ofthe > seatbelt, yet, they then say that they can't point to the seatbelt asbeing

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> the sole cause of his death. > > They still wont mandate the use of the HANS device. > > They wont say weather a HANS device, absolutely, or probably, would have > saved his life....they obviously dont want to. > > Mike Helton says that madating HANS at this time is not wise, based on > production schedules, and the understanding to the entirety of their uses. > > Well, other racing series have them mandated......so I guess the people > involved in those series' are able to understand how these things can be > used, better than certain nascar people......why...coz their iq's are > higher.....coz they aint hicks.......something else perhaps ? > > Smoke and fucking mirrors. > >

Some racing series realise that driver (and other) deaths drag down the whole series and sport...and do everything they can to avoid them. Some series almost celebrate accidents. Marc "Eddie Pettit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Why should NASCAR mandate the HANS device? These drivers are big boys and > if they want to use the HANS or another device they certainly can. Ifthey

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> don't they certainly know the risks. Racing is a dangerous game, people > die, let the drivers decide what they want. I'd be wearing one... > > Just my opinion, you mileage may vary. > -- > Looking for some good online Nascar 4 Racing? > Join the Stock Car Pro Racing Club. http://www.scprc.com > Racing on Sundays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays. > > "Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:HwKg7.953$[email hidden]... > > I just read the rundown of what Nascars findings were into the death of > Dale > > Eranhardt. > > > > Funny....they seem to spend alot of time talking about the seperation of > the > > seatbelt, yet, they then say that they can't point to the seatbelt as > being > > the sole cause of his death. > > > > They still wont mandate the use of the HANS device. > > > > They wont say weather a HANS device, absolutely, or probably, would have > > saved his life....they obviously dont want to. > > > > Mike Helton says that madating HANS at this time is not wise, based on > > production schedules, and the understanding to the entirety of their

uses.

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> > > > Well, other racing series have them mandated......so I guess the people > > involved in those series' are able to understand how these things can be > > used, better than certain nascar people......why...coz their iq's are > > higher.....coz they aint hicks.......something else perhaps ? > > > > Smoke and fucking mirrors. > > > > > >

>A racer about to hit the wall will grab a wheel very tight and can bend it Really? I know whenever simracing and I'm about to hit something unavoidable i let go of the wheel just before impact, and the one time I crashed a car in real life I did exactly the same. I thought racecar drivers did this also to avoid breaking bones in their hands, kind of like an instinct. I'm sure I've heard someone make a comment on this before - perhaps Martin Brundle? -- Cheers, Robin Lord - Trance DJ & Sim Racer. http://www.oppositelock.co.uk N�rburgring and Grand Prix Legends

Depends on your instinct, I guess. I've heard ex-driver colour commentators say that when they felt a "big one" was coming they'd make themselves small in the cockpit, pulling their legs back and putting their arms across their chest. The steering wheel would spin wildly when the front suspension collapses and tends to break thumbs if they're in the way. "Robin Lord" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VARg7.20639$[email hidden]... > >A racer about to hit the wall will grab a wheel very tight and can bendit > > Really? I know whenever simracing and I'm about to hit somethingunavoidable

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> i let go of the wheel just before impact, and the one time I crashed a car > in real life I did exactly the same. > I thought racecar drivers did this also to avoid breaking bones in their > hands, kind of like an instinct. > I'm sure I've heard someone make a comment on this before - perhaps Martin > Brundle? > > -- > Cheers, > > Robin Lord - Trance DJ & Sim Racer. > > http://www.oppositelock.co.uk > > N�rburgring and Grand Prix Legends > > >

Robin Lord <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VARg7.20639$[email hidden]... > >A racer about to hit the wall will grab a wheel very tight and can bendit > > Really? I know whenever simracing and I'm about to hit somethingunavoidable > i let go of the wheel just before impact, and the one time I crashed a car > in real life I did exactly the same. > Lets see.... let go of wheel-crashed car, let go of wheel-crashed car............ gotta be a connection here somewhere. please dont let go of the wheel in real life- not a good idea.

>Lets see.... >let go of wheel-crashed car, >let go of wheel-crashed car............ >gotta be a connection here somewhere. >please dont let go of the wheel in real life- not a good idea. Erm when the crash is unavoidable (and you've your best shot at avoiding it) then I think its rather a good idea to let go just before the moment of impact. Don't let go of wheel, crashed car - broken thumbs Your choice. -- Cheers, Robin Lord - Trance DJ & Sim Racer. http://www.oppositelock.co.uk N�rburgring and Grand Prix Legends

Let go of the wheel and you'll get a face worse injury than a broken thumb. You whole arm can break from it being thrown around the inside of the car and hitting stuff like the dashboard, windows, etc. I think I'll keep my hands on the wheel and take my chances. CW "Robin Lord" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PeUg7.32160$[email hidden]...

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> >Lets see.... > >let go of wheel-crashed car, > >let go of wheel-crashed car............ > >gotta be a connection here somewhere. > >please dont let go of the wheel in real life- not a good idea. > > Erm when the crash is unavoidable (and you've your best shot at avoiding

it)

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> then I think its rather a good idea to let go just before the moment of > impact. > > Don't let go of wheel, crashed car - broken thumbs > Your choice. > > -- > Cheers, > > Robin Lord - Trance DJ & Sim Racer. > > http://www.oppositelock.co.uk > > N�rburgring and Grand Prix Legends > >

"Cowen Wilson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Let go of the wheel and you'll get a face worse injury than a brokenthumb. > You whole arm can break from it being thrown around the inside of the car > and hitting stuff like the dashboard, windows, etc. I think I'll keep my > hands on the wheel and take my chances. > > CW The idea is to pull the arms and hands away and hold them tight to your chest. They shouldn't flap around in the cockpit, indeed they don't, when F1 drivers etc do the same. If you hold on, you can kiss goodbye to the use of your thumbs as the other poster said. I know at least a couple of autograssers who broke their thumbs holding on. They learned after that. cheers John

JM <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:kyVg7.21310$[email hidden]...

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> > The idea is to pull the arms and hands away and hold them tight to your > chest. > They shouldn't flap around in the cockpit, indeed they don't, when F1 > drivers etc do the same. > > If you hold on, you can kiss goodbye to the use of your thumbs as the

other > poster said. > > I know at least a couple of autograssers who broke their thumbs holdingon. > They learned after that. >We were talking about your personal vehicle......please.....don't let go of the wheel. (are we really having this conversation?)

It's true, in openwheel racing the thing that drivers are taught is to let go of the wheel. I've seen numerous CART races where the driver, right before impact will just let go of the wheel because otherwise their wrists or thumbs will snap like twigs. I don't know though if NASCAR drivers do the same, the angle of the in-car camera usually does not show the driver working the wheel before impact. Because the wheel is larger maybe it does not "whip" around as much as an Indy or F1 car's wheel does. In response to an earlier post though, Greg Moore, who was killed in a brutal crash in 1999 at California, was not wearing a HANS device because it was not invented yet but it is doubtful that it would have helped him anyway. His fatality was due to his car sliding sideways over a transition from grass to concrete resulting in his car barrel-rolling into the infield wall helmet first. Unfortunately there is not a safety device out there that can prevent a fatality (or at best severe injury) in an accident like that. Scott "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:kyVg7.21310$[email hidden]... > > "Cowen Wilson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Let go of the wheel and you'll get a face worse injury than a broken > thumb. > > You whole arm can break from it being thrown around the inside of thecar > > and hitting stuff like the dashboard, windows, etc. I think I'll keepmy

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> > hands on the wheel and take my chances. > > > > CW > > The idea is to pull the arms and hands away and hold them tight to your > chest. > They shouldn't flap around in the cockpit, indeed they don't, when F1 > drivers etc do the same. > > If you hold on, you can kiss goodbye to the use of your thumbs as the

other > poster said. > > I know at least a couple of autograssers who broke their thumbs holdingon.

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> They learned after that. > > cheers > John > > >

I don't drive in WC but I do race Late Models in the NASCAR Weekly Racing Series. Recently I hit a car that had spun and come to a complete stop in the lower middle of the back straight where it's hard for the spotter to see. I was going nearly 100mph and was an inch off the bumper of the car in front of me - that's why I didn't see what had happened. As I ducked low to make a pass I heard my spotter say over the radio "There's a caution out for something but I don't know where". Then I saw the car sitting in the middle of the track and clipped him with my LF wheel before I could swerve back. It was a hard impact with virtually no time to react. Once I felt the steering wheel turn violently in my hand I let go. Fortunately I didn't get hurt, not even a bruise. Although my left wrist was sore for about a day. I try to let go of the wheel once I realize there's nothing more I can do but sometimes you just can't react quick enough. As far as a head and neck restraint systems, I'm looking into the Hutchens device. The HANS device seems too cumbersome if you need to get out quickly, especially of you have to exit on the right side of the car. Recently Michael Waltrip had to do this and removed his HANS device before exiting on the right side. Even on short tracks a driver lost his life due to a basal skull fracture. You better believe it's on our minds but an open wheel car and a stock car are very different when it comes to getting out of them quickly. Especially if the left side of the car is pinned against the wall. I'm glad NASCAR doesn't mandate a head and neck restraint system yet. I'd like to see some more testing and development before it's mandated. So far the Hutchens device looks to be the best to me and I'm sure I'll be using something fairly soon. And just about all the WC drivers are using something now. "denscott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9QWg7.55071$[email hidden]... > It's true, in openwheel racing the thing that drivers are taught is to > let go of the wheel. I've seen numerous CART races where the driver, right > before impact will just let go of the wheel because otherwise their wrists > or thumbs will snap like twigs. I don't know though if NASCAR drivers dothe > same, the angle of the in-car camera usually does not show the driver > working the wheel before impact. Because the wheel is larger maybe it does > not "whip" around as much as an Indy or F1 car's wheel does. > > In response to an earlier post though, Greg Moore, who was killed in a > brutal crash in 1999 at California, was not wearing a HANS device becauseit > was not invented yet but it is doubtful that it would have helped him > anyway. His fatality was due to his car sliding sideways over a transition > from grass to concrete resulting in his car barrel-rolling into theinfield > wall helmet first. Unfortunately there is not a safety device out therethat > can prevent a fatality (or at best severe injury) in an accident likethat.

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> > Scott > > "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:kyVg7.21310$[email hidden]... > > > > "Cowen Wilson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Let go of the wheel and you'll get a face worse injury than a broken > > thumb. > > > You whole arm can break from it being thrown around the inside of the > car > > > and hitting stuff like the dashboard, windows, etc. I think I'll keep > my > > > hands on the wheel and take my chances. > > > > > > CW > > > > The idea is to pull the arms and hands away and hold them tight to your > > chest. > > They shouldn't flap around in the cockpit, indeed they don't, when F1 > > drivers etc do the same. > > > > If you hold on, you can kiss goodbye to the use of your thumbs as the > other > > poster said. > > > > I know at least a couple of autograssers who broke their thumbs holding > on. > > They learned after that. > > > > cheers > > John > > > > > > > >

Typical NASCAR crap. David G Fisher "Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:HwKg7.953$[email hidden]... > I just read the rundown of what Nascars findings were into the death ofDale > Eranhardt. > > Funny....they seem to spend alot of time talking about the seperation ofthe > seatbelt, yet, they then say that they can't point to the seatbelt asbeing

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> the sole cause of his death. > > They still wont mandate the use of the HANS device. > > They wont say weather a HANS device, absolutely, or probably, would have > saved his life....they obviously dont want to. > > Mike Helton says that madating HANS at this time is not wise, based on > production schedules, and the understanding to the entirety of their uses. > > Well, other racing series have them mandated......so I guess the people > involved in those series' are able to understand how these things can be > used, better than certain nascar people......why...coz their iq's are > higher.....coz they aint hicks.......something else perhaps ? > > Smoke and fucking mirrors. > >

> > They still wont mandate the use of the HANS device. >Conversation overheard in the geerage...... Bubba, "Hey Billy Joe Bob, you gonna use this here HANS deevice" BJB "Hell no Bubba, how the hell we s'posed to drive with our hands all tied up and reestricted" Bubba "oh yea, never thought of that,.....well how's them CART fellas do it?" BJB "Theys special Bubba, theys real race car drivers!" EC (with tongue in cheek) ;-)

Rik, i was not suggesting that you should let go of the wheel just 'cause you think you are going to crash -that would be very foolish, and of course you will crash then. Only that if impact is inevitable letting go the very split second before impact, of course if it all happened very fast you may not have time to think about and/or do this anyway. -- Cheers, Robin Lord - Trance DJ & Sim Racer. http://www.oppositelock.co.uk N�rburgring and Grand Prix Legends

>I thought racecar drivers did this also to avoid breaking bones in their >hands, kind of like an instinct. >I'm sure I've heard someone make a comment on this before - perhaps Martin >Brundle? Rusty said he did it in his crash at Pocono a couple of years ago. When he sees it coming, he pulls his hands to his chest and leans forward and down so as to lessen the room he will travel when he hits the end of give in his belts. Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

>Let go of the wheel and you'll get a face worse injury than a broken thumb. >You whole arm can break from it being thrown around the inside of the car >and hitting stuff like the dashboard, windows, etc. I think I'll keep my >hands on the wheel and take my chances. Entirely your choice. When I was driving five-ton trucks in the military we were all taught to keep our thumbs outside the steering wheel. Those that have driven these trucks know how violent the wheel can be when driving over uneven terrain. The spokes would take your thumbs clean off if you weren't careful. Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

>We were talking about your personal vehicle......please.....don't let go of >the wheel. >(are we really having this conversation?) A steering wheel is a steering wheel, no matter what vehicle it's in. In an unavoidable crash, you are always better off letting go of the wheel. One thing this will do is keep you from straightening your arms and getting them broke into a million pieces. Why do you think pro drivers will pull their arms and legs up towards their chests? They don't want to involuntarily make the mistake of bracing them for the impact. If you are worried about your arms flailing around then reach up and grab ahold of your seatbelt in the center of your chest. This assumes you have enough brains to be wearing a seatbelt. Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

> Entirely your choice. When I was driving five-ton trucks in the militarywe > were all taught to keep our thumbs outside the steering wheel. Those that > have driven these trucks know how violent the wheel can be when drivingover > uneven terrain. The spokes would take your thumbs clean off if youweren't > careful. Could not agree more... Anyone who drives off road, and has a brain, or has learned from others, keeps their thumbs outside the wheel. Even at 2mph you can break your hand when a wheel hits a rock/rut/whatever bad. If you hold the wheel like superman, then you bend/break stering linkages, by not letting the wheel move due to the impuse of the rock/rut/whatever. Norman

>Let go of the wheel and you'll get a face worse injury than a broken thumb. >You whole arm can break from it being thrown around the inside of the car >and hitting stuff like the dashboard, windows, etc. I think I'll keep my >hands on the wheel and take my chances. > >CW I think what people are referring to is when it's already too late. You know you're going to hit the wall, it's coming, what do you do in that last instant? I heard the same thing other's heard by an Indycar driver, they let go, take your feet off the pedals, etc., or you break your thumbs and wrists, *in addition* to whatever else is going to be broken anyway. Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

"Norman Black" <[email hidden]> writes: > Anyone who drives off road, and has a brain, or has learned from others, > keeps their thumbs outside the wheel. Even at 2mph you can break your hand > when a wheel hits a rock/rut/whatever bad. If you hold the wheel like > superman, then you bend/break stering linkages, by not letting the wheel > move due to the impuse of the rock/rut/whatever. Bah! When I was in the military, and drove offroad supply vehicles, I drove with one hand on the steering wheel (It had one of thoese nice knobs.) and the other resting on the engine bay. Never had a problem, the wheel was smoother and had less feedback than a family saloon on a highway. -- -asbjxrn

J. Todd Wasson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >Let go of the wheel and you'll get a face worse injury than a brokenthumb.

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> >You whole arm can break from it being thrown around the inside of the car > >and hitting stuff like the dashboard, windows, etc. I think I'll keep my > >hands on the wheel and take my chances. > > > >CW > > I think what people are referring to is when it's already too late. You

know > you're going to hit the wall, it's coming, what do you do in that lastinstant? > I heard the same thing other's heard by an Indycar driver, they let go,take > your feet off the pedals, etc., or you break your thumbs and wrists, *in > addition* to whatever else is going to be broken anyway. >Right, that's in a racecar. I don't think anyone is debating that. A personal vehicle was the topic.

"Rik Anthrax" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Kdjh7.168853 > Right, that's in a racecar. I don't think anyone is debating that. A > personal vehicle was the topic. Actually the original topic was race cars. Someone brought in their road car as an example, and then the objection was that someone else would rather people kept a hold on the wheel when on a public road. completely missing the point that the discussion centered on the activities past the "point of no return" in a crash situation. cheers John

JM <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:J4xh7.4021$[email hidden]...

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> > "Rik Anthrax" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Kdjh7.168853 > > Right, that's in a racecar. I don't think anyone is debating that. A > > personal vehicle was the topic. > > Actually the original topic was race cars. > > Someone brought in their road car as an example, and then the objection

was > that someone else would rather people kept a hold on the wheel when on a > public road. completely missing the point that the discussion centered on > the activities past the "point of no return" in a crash situation. >ahh, my bad.

I think the whole deal with putting a black box in NASCAR is a bunch of crap. When you are in a violent crash I don't think that is going to do much to save your hide! Whats wrong with the idea of putting in front and side airbags?? I was reading an article about it and they were saying the reason NASCAR is doing this is so that they can learn about crashes better and how to develop safer cars. I doubt that.... "Rik Anthrax" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<b%Og7.162314$[email hidden]>... > Hey at least they are putting a black box in the car! > (not sure how that would've saved DE but what the hay!)

Cart has used the info several times for publicity purposes...i.e. so&so hit the wall at 150mph which generated an impact of 75g's." Although I'm not too convinced bragging about impact velocities is a good idea. However...Nascar needs to learn something about thier cars and crashes. I believe they have resisted the implementation of Black Boxes in the past to limit liability. But the old theories of building rigid boxes to protect the driver don't seem to work anymore. The Cart, F1 & IRL cars have long been built on the idea of shedding parts to dissapate energy and soften the blows to the driver. Indeed, the IRL drivers had many many serious injuries in their first two years due to a faulty design in the rearmounted transmission. It caused a much greater amount of energy to be transmitted to the driver during rear impacts than the cars were designed for. Hopefully Nascar will gather this info from the black box and design some sort of cockpit/chassis that can survive high speed impacts with walls yet, not transfer the huge g forces directly to the driver. dave henrie "JR McVicker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I think the whole deal with putting a black box in NASCAR is a bunch > of crap. When you are in a violent crash I don't think that is going > to do much to save your hide! Whats wrong with the idea of putting in > front and side airbags?? I was reading an article about it and they > were saying the reason NASCAR is doing this is so that they can learn > about crashes better and how to develop safer cars. I doubt that.... > > "Rik Anthrax" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<b%Og7.162314$[email hidden]>... > > Hey at least they are putting a black box in the car! > > (not sure how that would've saved DE but what the hay!)