Question for Doug Milliken

Doug, I remember after the Earnhardt accident I think it was you mentioning a buddy who ran some numbers and said the actual accident energy was similar to a 30 mph head on crash. I was just wondering due to hearing it was mentioned in RPM Tonight it was like a 75 mph to 0 head on crash when you worked the numbers and removed the angle. Just kinda wondering if that seemed true. Nascar was reporting his car was going between 156 mph and 161 when he made contact with the wall and I thought I heard like a 22 degree angle into the wall. I did notice something also on the tape. He never lifed period end of story and well had to have been killed at impact since the car was getting wheelspin from the rear tires all the way along the wall. Not smoke from a sliding tire, but smoke being pushed out the rear of the car from wheel spin. -- David Robinson If autocrossing was easier it would be called road racing.

The 75 to zero you are referring to was referring to an analogy where a driver in a parked car was hit by another car going 75. Divide that by two(the parked car would accelerate to half the speed of the other car making lots of assumptions) and you get 37 MPH. I watched the entire press conference and the investigators determined that the #3 car decelerated by ~43 MPH almost instantaneously. Doesn't sound like much when you consider they're going 160MPH but I think the fastest human can only manage to run 25MPH. Even if his seatbelt didn't snap he may not have survived. Sad either way. I know, I'm not Doug Milliken but I thought I'd clear up the 75MPH thing "DAVID J ROBINSON" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qZeh7.6772$[email hidden]...

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> Doug, > > I remember after the Earnhardt accident I think it was you mentioning a > buddy who ran some numbers and said the actual accident energy was similar > to a 30 mph head on crash. I was just wondering due to hearing it was > mentioned in RPM Tonight it was like a 75 mph to 0 head on crash when you > worked the numbers and removed the angle. Just kinda wondering if that > seemed true. Nascar was reporting his car was going between 156 mph and

161 > when he made contact with the wall and I thought I heard like a 22 degree > angle into the wall. > > I did notice something also on the tape. He never lifed period end ofstory

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> and well had to have been killed at impact since the car was getting > wheelspin from the rear tires all the way along the wall. Not smoke from a > sliding tire, but smoke being pushed out the rear of the car from wheel > spin. > > > -- > David Robinson > > If autocrossing was easier it would be called road racing. > >

> Doesn't sound like much when you consider >they're going 160MPH but I think the fastest human can only manage to run >25MPH. Even if his seatbelt didn't snap he may not have survived. Sad >either way. > My mother was rearended while at a dead stop by an 80 year old couple going about 60 mph. The couple planted there faces into the windshield, but walked away. So did my mother (she ran back to help them, although her neck still bothers her today, 15 years later.) It sure didn't look like Dale hit the wall very hard, but snapping a seatbelt and hitting the wrong thing in the car the wrong way can kill you, even at 25mph. I believe that had the seatbelt not snapped, he'd have walked away. You could be going 300 mph and hit a wall and survive... If you hit it at an angle. The speed directly towards or away from the wall is what counts. To be specific: Sine(angle of impact) * speed = impact speed The impact speed is what does damage. At 1 degree angle, at 300 mph, you'd only impact the wall as though you were going 5 mph straight on. Also, it's important to note that the direction his car was travelling when it hit the wall is what to base a calculation on, not the direction it was facing. I know I wasn't asked, but imo, he'd have lived had the seatbelt not broken. That 80 year old couple walked away from a seatbeltless impact that was effectively only 10-20 mph slower with nothing but bloodied noses. The didn't even know they hit the windshield. Had their heads impacted something harder than the windshield (their face prints were visible), they probably would have died. With a helmet and a full racing harness, they'd have been jolted hard, but would have been just fine. Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

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>I did notice something also on the tape. He never lifed period end of story >and well had to have been killed at impact since the car was getting >wheelspin from the rear tires all the way along the wall. Not smoke from a >sliding tire, but smoke being pushed out the rear of the car from wheel >spin. > >

I didn't notice that, but at such an angle I doubt he would have sped up from 160 mph to anything much higher in such a short time. I doubt that would have changed things. Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

I am not saying he speed up I am saying from the moment he contacted the wall it appeared that the throttle stayed wide open. You could even see the wheelspin in some of the shots. Dave J. Todd Wasson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >I did notice something also on the tape. He never lifed period end ofstory > >and well had to have been killed at impact since the car was getting > >wheelspin from the rear tires all the way along the wall. Not smoke froma > >sliding tire, but smoke being pushed out the rear of the car from wheel > >spin. > > > > > > I didn't notice that, but at such an angle I doubt he would have sped upfrom > 160 mph to anything much higher in such a short time. I doubt that wouldhave

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> changed things. > Todd Wasson > --- > Performance Simulations > Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction > Software > http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

Todd, I am sorry but I think the belt thing as not a contributing factor to his death. The seperation of the spine from the brain really is what did him in. That would have happened with or without the belt breakage. Without the belt breakage he would have been held more firmly in his torso, thus its deceleration being more rapid then it was. Well will never know for several reasons. I did not hear any quoted loads on making the belt Dump as they call it, and there is no way to accurately recreate the iccident to determine the actaully loads and directions of those loads. Dave J. Todd Wasson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > My mother was rearended while at a dead stop by an 80 year old couplegoing > about 60 mph. The couple planted there faces into the windshield, butwalked > away. So did my mother (she ran back to help them, although her neckstill > bothers her today, 15 years later.) It sure didn't look like Dale hit thewall > very hard, but snapping a seatbelt and hitting the wrong thing in the carthe > wrong way can kill you, even at 25mph. I believe that had the seatbeltnot > snapped, he'd have walked away.

>I am not saying he speed up I am saying from the moment he contacted the >wall it appeared that the throttle stayed wide open. You could even see the >wheelspin in some of the shots. > > Oh, ok. >I am not saying he speed up I am saying from the moment he contacted the >wall it appeared that the throttle stayed wide open. You could even see the >wheelspin in some of the shots. > > Oh, ok. That's odd. Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

>I am sorry but I think the belt thing as not a contributing factor to his >death. The seperation of the spine from the brain really is what did him >in. To me, that's sort of like saying, "falling off the ladder didn't hurt, it was hitting the ground that broke my leg" :-) Not trying to make light of the investigation or Dale's death, but it seems tough for me to believe a broken seatbelt was "not a contributing factor to his death". Of course, I wasn't there and don't have any special info that wasn't in the news or anything... > That would have happened with or without the belt breakage. Without the >belt breakage he would have been held more firmly in his torso, thus its >deceleration being more rapid then it was. > I disagree. Would you rather get stopped by a racing harness that's designed to "give a little" (stretch) and distribute the load more evenly over a larger area of your torso, or fly directly into a hard, immovable steering wheel, possibly head first at who knows what angle? Didn't somebody on this newsgroup awhile back take a ride in one of these cars in the "Petty Driving Experience" or something similar? I recall the person being shocked at how low you sit in the cars, right infront of the steering wheel. He/she said that one driver actually raced by looking "through" the wheel. If this is the case, it seems likely that in an impact with no seatbelt, the driver would be brought to rest by the steering wheel alone, and probably hit it with your upper torso and head. I believe a racing harness will stop you more gently than a direct impact with a rigid steering wheel or other cockpit piece, wouldn't you agree? As I mentioned before, if the effective impact speed was what you (or whomever) quoted (75 mph into a parked car?), the crash might have been perfectly survivable with a racing harness. We've all seen harder hits than this one on TV, haven't we? The driver usually shakes it off and walks away. I still think of the 80 year couple that rearended my mother at a similar effective speed (maybe 10-15mph slower). They had no seatbelts and required no hospitalization. It's important to note, however, that they were stopped mainly by the windshield and upper dashboard. The 80 year old driver didn't hit the steering wheel with his head or neck. Surely that could have caused a spine/brain seperation? With a seatbelt, his head would never hit anything, but would be brought to rest relatively gently with some whiplash (in comparison with slamming into a steering wheel or windshield). He was lucky, as it didn't hit anything anyway (except the windshield, which had both of their face prints.) Perhaps a possible impact with the steering wheel is what caused the bent wheel in Dale's car someone else talked about recently? >Well will never know for several reasons. I did not hear any quoted loads on >making the belt Dump as they call it, and there is no way to accurately >recreate the iccident to determine the actaully loads and directions of >those loads. > Maybe so, although I think a lot could still be determined from the video. Anyway, I don't know many details of the crash, so my mind can still be changed. Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

I never got the post with the original question (poor newsfeed the last few weeks). My friend was working from broadcast video with all the problems associated with NTSC. I'd go with any analysis that NASCAR had done, they would have access to the original video (better quality) as well as data on the actual location of the camersa(s) relative to the track, etc. -- Doug Milliken Milliken Research Associates Inc. On Thu, 23 Aug 2001, Kirk House wrote:

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> The 75 to zero you are referring to was referring to an analogy where a > driver in a parked car was hit by another car going 75. Divide that by > two(the parked car would accelerate to half the speed of the other car > making lots of assumptions) and you get 37 MPH. I watched the entire press > conference and the investigators determined that the #3 car decelerated by > ~43 MPH almost instantaneously. Doesn't sound like much when you consider > they're going 160MPH but I think the fastest human can only manage to run > 25MPH. Even if his seatbelt didn't snap he may not have survived. Sad > either way. > > I know, I'm not Doug Milliken but I thought I'd clear up the 75MPH thing > > "DAVID J ROBINSON" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:qZeh7.6772$[email hidden]... > > Doug, > > > > I remember after the Earnhardt accident I think it was you mentioning a > > buddy who ran some numbers and said the actual accident energy was similar > > to a 30 mph head on crash. I was just wondering due to hearing it was > > mentioned in RPM Tonight it was like a 75 mph to 0 head on crash when you > > worked the numbers and removed the angle. Just kinda wondering if that > > seemed true. Nascar was reporting his car was going between 156 mph and > 161 > > when he made contact with the wall and I thought I heard like a 22 degree > > angle into the wall. > > > > I did notice something also on the tape. He never lifed period end of > story > > and well had to have been killed at impact since the car was getting > > wheelspin from the rear tires all the way along the wall. Not smoke from a > > sliding tire, but smoke being pushed out the rear of the car from wheel > > spin. > > > > > > -- > > David Robinson > > > > If autocrossing was easier it would be called road racing. > > > > > > > >

Sorry for delayed reaction...just got this tonight<sigh> Actually, these days a lot of accidents are re-created. There are even companies that specialize in "accident reconstruction", they use engineering simulation (not simulaTORS) and also do staged crash tests. Most of this work is done in connection with accident litigation (court cases). I visited one place that specialized in motorcycle crashes and they had a "cart" that they could use to position a motorcycle accurately in mid-air, at any angle, then they did a staged crash into an appropriate object, with high speed cameras running (to show the jury a slo-mo replay). I hear that the full accident report can be downloaded from NASCAR.com. A friend took a look (I haven't yet) and said there were plenty of interesting things there to study. I'm guessing that the press summaries leave a lot out, and some probably add their own 'spin'?? -- Doug Milliken On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, DAVID J ROBINSON wrote:

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> Todd, > > I am sorry but I think the belt thing as not a contributing factor to his > death. The seperation of the spine from the brain really is what did him > in. That would have happened with or without the belt breakage. Without the > belt breakage he would have been held more firmly in his torso, thus its > deceleration being more rapid then it was. > > > Well will never know for several reasons. I did not hear any quoted loads on > making the belt Dump as they call it, and there is no way to accurately > recreate the iccident to determine the actaully loads and directions of > those loads. > > Dave > > J. Todd Wasson <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > My mother was rearended while at a dead stop by an 80 year old couple > going > > about 60 mph. The couple planted there faces into the windshield, but > walked > > away. So did my mother (she ran back to help them, although her neck > still > > bothers her today, 15 years later.) It sure didn't look like Dale hit the > wall > > very hard, but snapping a seatbelt and hitting the wrong thing in the car > the > > wrong way can kill you, even at 25mph. I believe that had the seatbelt > not > > snapped, he'd have walked away. > > > > >