Karting, racing ethics, and sim-training

Hi all, Thought I'd drop in for a quick ramble (since r.a.s. is the perfect target audience). Our company had a karting day yesterday, pitting the esoteric, pasty-faced researchers like me against the down-to-earth product developers and the tanned-and-beautiful marketing types - you could feel the tension in the air! It seems to be a long tradition, but this was my first visit. In fact, it was my first time in a kart. The karts were the standard 200cc machines, centrifugal clutch, no gears, and the track a nice 850m indoor layout with a shiny concrete finish. It had a nice variety of turns, including two "flat out" sweepers, some hairpins, some mid-speed and some cool combinations. The karts can nudge about 75-80 kph. I was quite surprised by the feel of a proper racing kart. "Direct" would be an understatement for the steering response. The left-foot braking was a novelty, but not foreign to an old sim-racer. What I'm wondering about is the proper way to drive one of these things on a typical short kart track. My first lap I drove slowly just to get the feel, but the little thing gave such great feedback that it was easy to quickly start experimenting. The next few laps I drove using fairly standard technique, off the gas and on the brakes for corner entry, then back on the gas for the exit. Clean in and out. That was hopeless. The next few laps I ignored the brake pedal. For slow corners I used the combination of cutting the throttle and pitching the kart into a slide to cut speed. It was quicker, but still not right. I finally settled on a technique of keeping my gas foot planted for the whole lap, and making speed and car attitude changes with a feathered brake pedal. This was by far the fastest, especially since the little 200cc motors seem to bog unless you keep the throttle open. Is this the way to go? It was also clear that, although provoking slides by coming into corners way too hot was fun, they killed the lap times. The old script of slow in, fast out still seems to work for karts. Granted, "smooth" and "slow in" have a different meaning with the kart, as the driving style is still quite nervous. How does "sim-training" fit in here? Even with my infrequent time with GPL and GP3, somehow I've developed a good "feel" for what the car's doing, and how to compensate. Having never been in a kart before, I was surprised to have set the 2nd fastest time of the day, out of 40 testosterone-charged participants. The top guy races every weekend. Lots of sim-racing also has taught me to watch up the road and find the holes past the big wrecks. It was also interesting that the same mental skills apply as in sim-racing - watch the guy ahead and figure out where he's losing time, then capitalise on it. I had a fabulous battle with one guy for several laps, and realised he was cautious on a combination S-into-slow corner, and over the laps I could see how the pass was going to develop, and it did. But, and this is a big but, the physical stimuli coming back from even a 200cc kart are ten times as strong as from GPL. The feel of nailing an apex in the kart, or getting a perfect drift through the top-speed corner, is just so much better when you can feel it rather than just see it happen. And "racing ethics"? Well, perhaps I've raced with too many good sim-racers, but I was appalled at the driving of my colleagues :-) I'm used to most people conceding a corner when they know they have been well and truly beaten. But yesterday it was "full ramming speed" from the guy you just passed, as he tries to squeeze your back end out or punt you off the next corner. I didn't get too hyped about where I placed in the race, and could see the fun of some of the bumper car techniques, but at the same time it all somehow offended my basic sense of gentleman racers. Several times I would have the corner but still feather the brakes as I figured it was better than both of us ending up spun around at the corner and having 6 guys stream past. Every single pass I made had to be truly earned, which I suppose is satisfying in its own way, as I knew I had done it cleanly. Blue flags? Forget about them. I was in a fierce dice for top spot in the final race, and we were stuck behind someone a lap down who had the world's widest kart, and who seemed to have a problem with the colour blue. I can sypmathise with Coulthard at Monaco. In the end, it was all fun for a day. Can't see myself paying good money to do it more often, though, as I would rather be out mountain biking, and I can get my racing kicks for free on the computer. However, just in case we do it again next year, what's the right way to drive one of these little monsters? Stephen

Great post, Stephen. My own karting time is limited (not to mention long gone), but I think you're deep into the basics...as proved by your 2nd-fastest time of the day. Let us know about your subsequent karting adventures...if any. --Steve Smith "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3b862102$[email hidden]...

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> Hi all, > > Thought I'd drop in for a quick ramble (since r.a.s. is the perfect target > audience). > > Our company had a karting day yesterday, pitting the esoteric, pasty-faced > researchers like me against the down-to-earth product developers and the > tanned-and-beautiful marketing types - you could feel the tension in the > air! It seems to be a long tradition, but this was my first visit. In

fact, > it was my first time in a kart. The karts were the standard 200ccmachines, > centrifugal clutch, no gears, and the track a nice 850m indoor layout witha > shiny concrete finish. It had a nice variety of turns, including two"flat > out" sweepers, some hairpins, some mid-speed and some cool combinations. > The karts can nudge about 75-80 kph. > > I was quite surprised by the feel of a proper racing kart. "Direct" would > be an understatement for the steering response. The left-foot braking wasa > novelty, but not foreign to an old sim-racer. What I'm wondering about is > the proper way to drive one of these things on a typical short kart track. > My first lap I drove slowly just to get the feel, but the little thinggave > such great feedback that it was easy to quickly start experimenting. The > next few laps I drove using fairly standard technique, off the gas and on > the brakes for corner entry, then back on the gas for the exit. Clean in > and out. That was hopeless. The next few laps I ignored the brake pedal. > For slow corners I used the combination of cutting the throttle andpitching > the kart into a slide to cut speed. It was quicker, but still not right.I > finally settled on a technique of keeping my gas foot planted for thewhole > lap, and making speed and car attitude changes with a feathered brakepedal. > This was by far the fastest, especially since the little 200cc motors seem > to bog unless you keep the throttle open. Is this the way to go? It was > also clear that, although provoking slides by coming into corners way too > hot was fun, they killed the lap times. The old script of slow in, fastout > still seems to work for karts. Granted, "smooth" and "slow in" have a > different meaning with the kart, as the driving style is still quite > nervous. > > How does "sim-training" fit in here? Even with my infrequent time withGPL > and GP3, somehow I've developed a good "feel" for what the car's doing,and > how to compensate. Having never been in a kart before, I was surprised to > have set the 2nd fastest time of the day, out of 40 testosterone-charged > participants. The top guy races every weekend. Lots of sim-racing alsohas > taught me to watch up the road and find the holes past the big wrecks. It > was also interesting that the same mental skills apply as in sim-racing - > watch the guy ahead and figure out where he's losing time, then capitalise > on it. I had a fabulous battle with one guy for several laps, andrealised > he was cautious on a combination S-into-slow corner, and over the laps I > could see how the pass was going to develop, and it did. But, and this isa > big but, the physical stimuli coming back from even a 200cc kart are ten > times as strong as from GPL. The feel of nailing an apex in the kart, or > getting a perfect drift through the top-speed corner, is just so muchbetter

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> when you can feel it rather than just see it happen. > > And "racing ethics"? Well, perhaps I've raced with too many good > sim-racers, but I was appalled at the driving of my colleagues :-) I'm > used to most people conceding a corner when they know they have been well > and truly beaten. But yesterday it was "full ramming speed" from the guy > you just passed, as he tries to squeeze your back end out or punt you off > the next corner. I didn't get too hyped about where I placed in the race, > and could see the fun of some of the bumper car techniques, but at the

same > time it all somehow offended my basic sense of gentleman racers. Several > times I would have the corner but still feather the brakes as I figured it > was better than both of us ending up spun around at the corner and having6 > guys stream past. Every single pass I made had to be truly earned, whichI > suppose is satisfying in its own way, as I knew I had done it cleanly.Blue > flags? Forget about them. I was in a fierce dice for top spot in thefinal > race, and we were stuck behind someone a lap down who had the world'swidest > kart, and who seemed to have a problem with the colour blue. I can > sypmathise with Coulthard at Monaco. > > In the end, it was all fun for a day. Can't see myself paying good moneyto > do it more often, though, as I would rather be out mountain biking, and I > can get my racing kicks for free on the computer. However, just in casewe

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> do it again next year, what's the right way to drive one of these little > monsters? > > Stephen > > >

On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:40:09 +0200, "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Hi all, > >Thought I'd drop in for a quick ramble (since r.a.s. is the perfect target >audience). Hi Stephen, First of all, nice to see you're still alive and well :) I did a lot of karting the last two years, and yes, I think my simracing experience helped my greatly in my karting. Before simracing (before GPL :) I knew nothing about racing techniques. It was great to see how I could use these techniques in practice. Not only the how-to-drive techniques, but also the racing techniques. Unfortunately, as you have experienced yourself, karting races often end up in bumping and ramming races. Lately I don't kart often anymore because I got turned off with the average karting mentality. Btw, this weekend is the GPL LAN here in holland. The whole weekend we have GPL races with 11 Hyperstims, but tonight we start with some outdoor karting races. Its going to be fun to see how some of Europe's best GPL-ers will do on the real track :) Andre

On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:40:09 +0200, "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Hi all, > >Thought I'd drop in for a quick ramble (since r.a.s. is the perfect target >audience). > From my experience, which differs somewhat in both machinery and circuit, I would suggest you are on the right path. The thing with karts is you can go SO much faster into corners than you think, like most things it's all about confidence and practice. The trick is to remember that they the engines generally have a very narrow powerband so getting off the gas in not usually the best way to slow down. Counter braking and sliding in the middle of the corner to slingshot out will give the best results, hairpins excluded. Alias I fear sim racing offers little in preparation other than race craft (which is very important). There is no way you can get the feedback to realistically simulate a kart. Regards, Anthony Bulloch

Hi Stephen. I realy enjoyed reading your post, as I experienced the same last winter when I entered an indoor Kart series. It was with the local chapter of the Porsche Sports Car Club of North America, and this club is full of guys who race on weekends or do hot lapping events with their Porsches. They have a lot of on track experience. For me, it was my first on track racing experience and GPL sure helped. Your so right about the racing ethics and techniques. Ethics: Some, who would ram me in the back at the next corner after I passed them, would later tell me that I braked too early, when I knew its because they braked too late :) And the blue flags...oh my god...even a lap down, they think they can relap themselves. Techniques: We also raced on a slippery concrete floor. At the beginning, I was wasting a lot of time trying to stay with the pack by coming into corners way too fast, but I quickly learned to enter slow and do my best to get the best possible line. I found that keeping the gas on, and use the brake as a sort of traction control, also made me faster on this slippery surface. It might be different on asphalt. Unfortunatally, the karts we were using had so much difference in speed. Our position on the grid was determined by our finishing position of the previous race, and we were making a draw to determine the karts we would be using for the race. If we were unlucky one week and pick a bad kart, you had no chance of a top spot on that race. But for the season as a whole, I think it averaged out pretty good. I finished the season 3rd, very close to the top 2 guys as it was decided on the last race :) After reading your post, I think your hooked, and I'm sure you'll go back very soon :) Robert Hull, Qu�bec

"Stephen Ferguson" wrote > In the end, it was all fun for a day. Can't see myself paying good moneyto > do it more often, though, as I would rather be out mountain biking, and I > can get my racing kicks for free on the computer. However, just in casewe > do it again next year, what's the right way to drive one of these little > monsters? > I was karting on Tuesday night, and I had a very dramatic experience. The start finish straight of the tight indoor circuit I was racing on is curved, and is taken at speed (About 35-40 mph). I was involved in a three kart battle for the lead when I felt my handling was getting worse. When I got onto the start/finish straight, the front right wheel came loose, and fell off, and my kart veered sharply into the tyre wall, taking another kart with me! The race had to be stopped to clear up the mess, but I was able to make the restart, and finished the race 3rd out of 8 drivers.

"Ryan S" ... > "Stephen Ferguson" wrote > > In the end, it was all fun for a day. Can't see myself paying goodmoney > to > > do it more often, though, as I would rather be out mountain biking, andI

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> > can get my racing kicks for free on the computer. However, just in case > we > > do it again next year, what's the right way to drive one of these little > > monsters? > > > > I was karting on Tuesday night, and I had a very dramatic experience. The > start finish straight of the tight indoor circuit I was racing on is

curved, > and is taken at speed (About 35-40 mph). I was involved in a three kart > battle for the lead when I felt my handling was getting worse. When I got > onto the start/finish straight, the front right wheel came loose, and fell > off, and my kart veered sharply into the tyre wall, taking another kartwith > me! > > The race had to be stopped to clear up the mess, but I was able to makethe > restart, and finished the race 3rd out of 8 drivers.I can top that. A couple of years ago I went racing indoor karts and I was closing in on the kart in front. As we dived into the corner he spun out and as I swerved to avoid him I ran over his rear tyre. The next thing I knew I was upside down, sliding across the track. When all the dust settled a marshal came running over shouting at me not to move. Apparently the "Incredible Hulk" effect is quite common and people have been known to throw the kart off them! The only injury was a grazed finger (I was glad I was wearing the "gardening" gloves they supplied) and I recovered to race in the final, where I did considerably better than I do in GPL, coming first! Great fun, but I'll have to sort myself out a go in a proper kart - the indoor ones are just too slow. -- Tony Whitley GPLRank -0.54 MonsterRank 407 and falling... "On some laps I'd get as many as fifteen corners really right, but Moss, he gets them all right on every lap" - Von Trips after the 1961 German Grand Prix.

Stephen Ferguson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3b862102$[email hidden]... > participants. The top guy races every weekend. Lots of sim-racingalso has > taught me to watch up the road and find the holes past the bigwrecks. It > And "racing ethics"? Well, perhaps I've raced with too many good > sim-racers, but I was appalled at the driving of my colleagues :-)I'm Copy both of those totally, though add "R/C and" before "sim" ;-) Jonny

wrecks. It I'm Copy both of those totally, though add "R/C and" before "sim" ;-) Jonny

>Our company had a karting day yesterday, This didn't happen to be in the twin cities area of Minnesota, did it? This sounds like a track a few miles from my place. Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

Andre, ELEVEN HyperStimulators!!!! You lucky dogs! Please post a report on the weekend's activities here. It should make fascinating reading. LAN Party in Vegas, anyone? --Steve Smith "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:40:09 +0200, "Stephen Ferguson" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Hi all, > > > >Thought I'd drop in for a quick ramble (since r.a.s. is the perfect

target

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> >audience). > > Hi Stephen, > > First of all, nice to see you're still alive and well :) > > I did a lot of karting the last two years, and yes, I think my > simracing experience helped my greatly in my karting. > Before simracing (before GPL :) I knew nothing about racing > techniques. It was great to see how I could use these techniques in > practice. Not only the how-to-drive techniques, but also the racing > techniques. > Unfortunately, as you have experienced yourself, karting races often > end up in bumping and ramming races. Lately I don't kart often anymore > because I got turned off with the average karting mentality. > > Btw, this weekend is the GPL LAN here in holland. The whole weekend we > have GPL races with 11 Hyperstims, but tonight we start with some > outdoor karting races. Its going to be fun to see how some of Europe's > best GPL-ers will do on the real track :) > > Andre

"Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:3b862102$[email hidden]:

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> Hi all, > > Thought I'd drop in for a quick ramble (since r.a.s. is the perfect > target audience). > > Our company had a karting day yesterday, pitting the esoteric, > pasty-faced researchers like me against the down-to-earth product > developers and the tanned-and-beautiful marketing types - you could > feel the tension in the air! It seems to be a long tradition, but this > was my first visit. In fact, it was my first time in a kart. The karts > were the standard 200cc machines, centrifugal clutch, no gears, and the > track a nice 850m indoor layout with a shiny concrete finish. It had a > nice variety of turns, including two "flat out" sweepers, some > hairpins, some mid-speed and some cool combinations. The karts can > nudge about 75-80 kph. > > I was quite surprised by the feel of a proper racing kart. "Direct" > would be an understatement for the steering response. The left-foot > braking was a novelty, but not foreign to an old sim-racer. What I'm > wondering about is the proper way to drive one of these things on a > typical short kart track. My first lap I drove slowly just to get the > feel, but the little thing gave such great feedback that it was easy to > quickly start experimenting. The next few laps I drove using fairly > standard technique, off the gas and on the brakes for corner entry, > then back on the gas for the exit. Clean in and out. That was > hopeless. The next few laps I ignored the brake pedal. For slow > corners I used the combination of cutting the throttle and pitching the > kart into a slide to cut speed. It was quicker, but still not right. > I finally settled on a technique of keeping my gas foot planted for the > whole lap, and making speed and car attitude changes with a feathered > brake pedal. This was by far the fastest, especially since the little > 200cc motors seem to bog unless you keep the throttle open. Is this > the way to go? It was also clear that, although provoking slides by > coming into corners way too hot was fun, they killed the lap times. > The old script of slow in, fast out still seems to work for karts. > Granted, "smooth" and "slow in" have a different meaning with the kart, > as the driving style is still quite nervous. > > How does "sim-training" fit in here? Even with my infrequent time with > GPL and GP3, somehow I've developed a good "feel" for what the car's > doing, and how to compensate. Having never been in a kart before, I > was surprised to have set the 2nd fastest time of the day, out of 40 > testosterone-charged participants. The top guy races every weekend. > Lots of sim-racing also has taught me to watch up the road and find the > holes past the big wrecks. It was also interesting that the same > mental skills apply as in sim-racing - watch the guy ahead and figure > out where he's losing time, then capitalise on it. I had a fabulous > battle with one guy for several laps, and realised he was cautious on a > combination S-into-slow corner, and over the laps I could see how the > pass was going to develop, and it did. But, and this is a big but, the > physical stimuli coming back from even a 200cc kart are ten times as > strong as from GPL. The feel of nailing an apex in the kart, or > getting a perfect drift through the top-speed corner, is just so much > better when you can feel it rather than just see it happen. > > And "racing ethics"? Well, perhaps I've raced with too many good > sim-racers, but I was appalled at the driving of my colleagues :-) > I'm used to most people conceding a corner when they know they have > been well and truly beaten. But yesterday it was "full ramming speed" > from the guy you just passed, as he tries to squeeze your back end out > or punt you off the next corner. I didn't get too hyped about where I > placed in the race, and could see the fun of some of the bumper car > techniques, but at the same time it all somehow offended my basic sense > of gentleman racers. Several times I would have the corner but still > feather the brakes as I figured it was better than both of us ending up > spun around at the corner and having 6 guys stream past. Every single > pass I made had to be truly earned, which I suppose is satisfying in > its own way, as I knew I had done it cleanly. Blue flags? Forget > about them. I was in a fierce dice for top spot in the final race, and > we were stuck behind someone a lap down who had the world's widest > kart, and who seemed to have a problem with the colour blue. I can > sypmathise with Coulthard at Monaco. > > In the end, it was all fun for a day. Can't see myself paying good > money to do it more often, though, as I would rather be out mountain > biking, and I can get my racing kicks for free on the computer. > However, just in case we do it again next year, what's the right way to > drive one of these little monsters? > > Stephen

Great post Stephen! Concerning how to drive those karts it really depends on karts, track surface, temperature etc. From my experience there are different kinds of rental karts and tracks: -- most common -- Karts don't have much acceleration, brakes are pathetic, tires are worn and surface is slippery. That is a sign of operator who reduces costs. Track is more or less simple. The best thing to do is to keep throttle to the floor, turn into the corners very early making the kart slide and hitting apex just right. There's little need for brakes, except when something happened on the track. -- good operators -- karts have good acceleration, hydraulic brakes and good tires. Tracks also tend to be more technical, difference between good drivers and average ones often 3-4 seconds per lap. From my experience, karts there have they own character. Though they are more or less equal, some will be understeering, other oversteering, ones will have better grip, others a bit more power. With understeer and less grip I prefer to slide into the corner more often, than when I have more grip and oversteer, though it really varies on the configuration of the corner. In the race it is much more fun, because you will usually start on the cold tires. I slide the kart into the corners on few first laps controlling it with the throttle and brakes. When tires warm up, I start to drive more precisely and less sliding (or not at all). I do not recommend using throttle and brakes at the same time. It does not do any good and overheats the clutch, so you lose acceleration in the later stages of the race. Also if the track has several different surfaces, different surface temperature (indoor-outdoor tracks), corners with camber, variety of corner series, there is no one solution. You may need to slide the kart in one corner and drive precisely in another. About the racing and bumping:) If you race in corporate event or with random people, what you've experienced is typical. If you want good racing look for some championships at local track. Surprisingly, I've found out that winter is the best time, because many people who race during the summer in various series, entertain themselves in indoor championships during the winter. It makes a good competition. Regards, Alex.

I've done a lot of indoor karting. The technique you settled on, on the gas all the way, is about the fastest way around except... for me at least, I am a little quicker if I get off the gas entering hairpins. Also, and I've raced with some of the absolutely fastest guys around, sliding buys you almost nothing. I've seen one particular guy, who is about 6'4" tall and 220 lbs, beat guys half his size by keeping the kart completely on a rail, but on the limit. He never slides at all. If you feel like you have to slide, only do it entering the turn, and get things collected well before the apex. I'd disagree with what someone else posted too, as far as sim-racing transferring to karts, or any other race car for that matter. I use pretty much the same steering input style in karts as in GPL, and it's fast in both. -- Pat Dotson Stephen Ferguson wrote: > > Hi all, > > Thought I'd drop in for a quick ramble (since r.a.s. is the perfect target > audience). > > Our company had a karting day yesterday, pitting the esoteric, pasty-faced > researchers like me against the down-to-earth product developers and the > tanned-and-beautiful marketing types - you could feel the tension in the > air! It seems to be a long tradition, but this was my first visit. In fact, > it was my first time in a kart. The karts were the standard 200cc machines, > centrifugal clutch, no gears, and the track a nice 850m indoor layout with a > shiny concrete finish. It had a nice variety of turns, including two "flat > out" sweepers, some hairpins, some mid-speed and some cool combinations. > The karts can nudge about 75-80 kph. > > I was quite surprised by the feel of a proper racing kart. "Direct" would > be an understatement for the steering response. The left-foot braking was a > novelty, but not foreign to an old sim-racer. What I'm wondering about is > the proper way to drive one of these things on a typical short kart track. > My first lap I drove slowly just to get the feel, but the little thing gave > such great feedback that it was easy to quickly start experimenting. The > next few laps I drove using fairly standard technique, off the gas and on > the brakes for corner entry, then back on the gas for the exit. Clean in > and out. That was hopeless. The next few laps I ignored the brake pedal. > For slow corners I used the combination of cutting the throttle and pitching > the kart into a slide to cut speed. It was quicker, but still not right. I > finally settled on a technique of keeping my gas foot planted for the whole > lap, and making speed and car attitude changes with a feathered brake pedal. > This was by far the fastest, especially since the little 200cc motors seem > to bog unless you keep the throttle open. Is this the way to go? It was > also clear that, although provoking slides by coming into corners way too > hot was fun, they killed the lap times. The old script of slow in, fast out > still seems to work for karts. Granted, "smooth" and "slow in" have a > different meaning with the kart, as the driving style is still quite > nervous. > > How does "sim-training" fit in here? Even with my infrequent time with GPL > and GP3, somehow I've developed a good "feel" for what the car's doing, and > how to compensate. Having never been in a kart before, I was surprised to > have set the 2nd fastest time of the day, out of 40 testosterone-charged > participants. The top guy races every weekend. Lots of sim-racing also has > taught me to watch up the road and find the holes past the big wrecks. It > was also interesting that the same mental skills apply as in sim-racing - > watch the guy ahead and figure out where he's losing time, then capitalise > on it. I had a fabulous battle with one guy for several laps, and realised > he was cautious on a combination S-into-slow corner, and over the laps I > could see how the pass was going to develop, and it did. But, and this is a > big but, the physical stimuli coming back from even a 200cc kart are ten > times as strong as from GPL. The feel of nailing an apex in the kart, or > getting a perfect drift through the top-speed corner, is just so much better > when you can feel it rather than just see it happen. > > And "racing ethics"? Well, perhaps I've raced with too many good > sim-racers, but I was appalled at the driving of my colleagues :-) I'm > used to most people conceding a corner when they know they have been well > and truly beaten. But yesterday it was "full ramming speed" from the guy > you just passed, as he tries to squeeze your back end out or punt you off > the next corner. I didn't get too hyped about where I placed in the race, > and could see the fun of some of the bumper car techniques, but at the same > time it all somehow offended my basic sense of gentleman racers. Several > times I would have the corner but still feather the brakes as I figured it > was better than both of us ending up spun around at the corner and having 6 > guys stream past. Every single pass I made had to be truly earned, which I > suppose is satisfying in its own way, as I knew I had done it cleanly. Blue > flags? Forget about them. I was in a fierce dice for top spot in the final > race, and we were stuck behind someone a lap down who had the world's widest > kart, and who seemed to have a problem with the colour blue. I can > sypmathise with Coulthard at Monaco. > > In the end, it was all fun for a day. Can't see myself paying good money to > do it more often, though, as I would rather be out mountain biking, and I > can get my racing kicks for free on the computer. However, just in case we > do it again next year, what's the right way to drive one of these little > monsters? > > Stephen

I noticed this too. Over here, there's some pretty powerful sprint karts that run on a slick oval. You don't have to have a drivers liscense, just have to be over 5'. Anyway, in the winter, to attract more business (it's indoor) they run a 6-8pm 2 hours on Sunday night thing for $20. You reach about 25mph (you could go faster but the track is too small between the corners) and it's pretty slick, so you have to lift a bit and then control the car with the throttle around the corner, lots of fun. Well anyway, some other kids from the local go-kart track were there practicing for next season. (I'm 14 and wanted to kart VERY badly after playing a lot of GPL and doing well and stuff, but my parents couldn't come up with the money to supplement the $1400 I had for karting.)There were 6 of them, one of me, and then I brought a friend along just to see his ass get kicked ;) Well I was very happy, out of the 12 races I won 5 of them, finished 2nd in 2, 3rd in 2, and finished lower than that 3 times. (Got cut off and ran head on into the wall once (just jammed my finger thanfully) and had the crap car twice) Anyway, quite fun, and I learned I could at least run with the karters my age, and it was very fun to race them. We were passing back and forth each lap, but they were a bit too aggressive (though they rarely bumped). I used my N4 insinct and hung back slightly until towards the end and then I'd keep my momentum up as much as I could and when they battled in front, I'd sneak by. Even though you were sliding a little and did have to lift, we were so equal it turned out keeping your momentum and not getting stuck fighting cars got you to the front. Of course, 110% for 2 hours and being jolted a lot makes you tired! Thanks, Alex Alex <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:3b862102$[email hidden]: > > > Hi all, > > > > Thought I'd drop in for a quick ramble (since r.a.s. is the perfect > > target audience). > > > > Our company had a karting day yesterday, pitting the esoteric, > > pasty-faced researchers like me against the down-to-earth product > > developers and the tanned-and-beautiful marketing types - you could > > feel the tension in the air! It seems to be a long tradition, but this > > was my first visit. In fact, it was my first time in a kart. The karts > > were the standard 200cc machines, centrifugal clutch, no gears, and the > > track a nice 850m indoor layout with a shiny concrete finish. It had a > > nice variety of turns, including two "flat out" sweepers, some > > hairpins, some mid-speed and some cool combinations. The karts can > > nudge about 75-80 kph. > > > > I was quite surprised by the feel of a proper racing kart. "Direct" > > would be an understatement for the steering response. The left-foot > > braking was a novelty, but not foreign to an old sim-racer. What I'm > > wondering about is the proper way to drive one of these things on a > > typical short kart track. My first lap I drove slowly just to get the > > feel, but the little thing gave such great feedback that it was easy to > > quickly start experimenting. The next few laps I drove using fairly > > standard technique, off the gas and on the brakes for corner entry, > > then back on the gas for the exit. Clean in and out. That was > > hopeless. The next few laps I ignored the brake pedal. For slow > > corners I used the combination of cutting the throttle and pitching the > > kart into a slide to cut speed. It was quicker, but still not right. > > I finally settled on a technique of keeping my gas foot planted for the > > whole lap, and making speed and car attitude changes with a feathered > > brake pedal. This was by far the fastest, especially since the little > > 200cc motors seem to bog unless you keep the throttle open. Is this > > the way to go? It was also clear that, although provoking slides by > > coming into corners way too hot was fun, they killed the lap times. > > The old script of slow in, fast out still seems to work for karts. > > Granted, "smooth" and "slow in" have a different meaning with the kart, > > as the driving style is still quite nervous. > > > > How does "sim-training" fit in here? Even with my infrequent time with > > GPL and GP3, somehow I've developed a good "feel" for what the car's > > doing, and how to compensate. Having never been in a kart before, I > > was surprised to have set the 2nd fastest time of the day, out of 40 > > testosterone-charged participants. The top guy races every weekend. > > Lots of sim-racing also has taught me to watch up the road and find the > > holes past the big wrecks. It was also interesting that the same > > mental skills apply as in sim-racing - watch the guy ahead and figure > > out where he's losing time, then capitalise on it. I had a fabulous > > battle with one guy for several laps, and realised he was cautious on a > > combination S-into-slow corner, and over the laps I could see how the > > pass was going to develop, and it did. But, and this is a big but, the > > physical stimuli coming back from even a 200cc kart are ten times as > > strong as from GPL. The feel of nailing an apex in the kart, or > > getting a perfect drift through the top-speed corner, is just so much > > better when you can feel it rather than just see it happen. > > > > And "racing ethics"? Well, perhaps I've raced with too many good > > sim-racers, but I was appalled at the driving of my colleagues :-) > > I'm used to most people conceding a corner when they know they have > > been well and truly beaten. But yesterday it was "full ramming speed" > > from the guy you just passed, as he tries to squeeze your back end out > > or punt you off the next corner. I didn't get too hyped about where I > > placed in the race, and could see the fun of some of the bumper car > > techniques, but at the same time it all somehow offended my basic sense > > of gentleman racers. Several times I would have the corner but still > > feather the brakes as I figured it was better than both of us ending up > > spun around at the corner and having 6 guys stream past. Every single > > pass I made had to be truly earned, which I suppose is satisfying in > > its own way, as I knew I had done it cleanly. Blue flags? Forget > > about them. I was in a fierce dice for top spot in the final race, and > > we were stuck behind someone a lap down who had the world's widest > > kart, and who seemed to have a problem with the colour blue. I can > > sypmathise with Coulthard at Monaco. > > > > In the end, it was all fun for a day. Can't see myself paying good > > money to do it more often, though, as I would rather be out mountain > > biking, and I can get my racing kicks for free on the computer. > > However, just in case we do it again next year, what's the right way to > > drive one of these little monsters? > > > > Stephen > > Great post Stephen! > > Concerning how to drive those karts it really depends on karts, > track surface, temperature etc. From my experience there are > different kinds of rental karts and tracks: > -- most common -- Karts don't have much acceleration, brakes > are pathetic, tires are worn and surface is slippery. That is > a sign of operator who reduces costs. Track is more or less simple. > The best thing to do is to keep throttle to the floor, turn into > the corners very early making the kart slide and hitting apex > just right. There's little need for brakes, except when something > happened on the track. > -- good operators -- karts have good acceleration, hydraulic brakes > and good tires. Tracks also tend to be more technical, difference > between good drivers and average ones often 3-4 seconds per lap. > From my experience, karts there have they own character. Though they > are more or less equal, some will be understeering, other oversteering, > ones will have better grip, others a bit more power. With understeer > and less grip I prefer to slide into the corner more often, than when > I have more grip and oversteer, though it really varies on the > configuration of the corner. In the race it is much more fun, > because you will usually start on the cold tires. I slide the kart > into the corners on few first laps controlling it with the throttle > and brakes. When tires warm up, I start to drive more precisely and > less sliding (or not at all). > I do not recommend using throttle and brakes at the same time. It > does not do any good and overheats the clutch, so you lose > acceleration in the later stages of the race. > Also if the track has several different surfaces, different surface > temperature (indoor-outdoor tracks), corners with camber, > variety of corner series, there is no one solution. You may need > to slide the kart in one corner and drive precisely in another. > > About the racing and bumping:) If you race in corporate event or > with random people, what you've experienced is typical. If you > want good racing look for some championships at local track. > Surprisingly, I've found out that winter is the best time, > because many people who race during the summer in various series, > entertain themselves in indoor championships during the winter. > It makes a good competition. > > Regards, > Alex.

J. Todd Wasson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >Our company had a karting day yesterday, > > This didn't happen to be in the twin cities area of Minnesota, did it?This > sounds like a track a few miles from my place. Er... nope. The "Twin Cities" in this case would have to be Payerne and Avenches, in the French part of Switzerland. Stephen

I > finally settled on a technique of keeping my gas foot planted for thewhole > lap, and making speed and car attitude changes with a feathered brakepedal. > This was by far the fastest, especially since the little 200cc motors seem > to bog unless you keep the throttle open. Is this the way to go? This is not a good idea. Do this for long enough and you eventually burn out the clutch on these things. Many tracks now have sensors on their karts and if you are double pedalling, they will hang out a "pedals" board. Continue with this practice and you eventually get black flagged. How do I know this? I once lost a four hour endurance race. My team had actually lapped the field, all bar four other karts. We did a pitstop for a driver change, I took over and managed three laps before the clutch exploded :-\ MS

I'd reccomend a visit to Buckmore park in Kent or Daytona raceway in Milton Keynes as a starting point Tony. They do arrive and drive sessions in prokarts for a newbie to get a feel. Around 70mph tops so not exceptionally fast but it's a good stepping stone before trying out a full-blown 2-stroke... MS Tony Whitley <[email hidden]. c o . u k> wrote in message news:9m671p$b92$[email hidden]...

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> > "Ryan S" ... > > "Stephen Ferguson" wrote > > > In the end, it was all fun for a day. Can't see myself paying good > money > > to > > > do it more often, though, as I would rather be out mountain biking,

and > I > > > can get my racing kicks for free on the computer. However, just incase > > we > > > do it again next year, what's the right way to drive one of theselittle > > > monsters? > > > > > > > I was karting on Tuesday night, and I had a very dramatic experience.The > > start finish straight of the tight indoor circuit I was racing on is > curved, > > and is taken at speed (About 35-40 mph). I was involved in a three kart > > battle for the lead when I felt my handling was getting worse. When Igot > > onto the start/finish straight, the front right wheel came loose, andfell

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> > off, and my kart veered sharply into the tyre wall, taking another kart > with > > me! > > > > The race had to be stopped to clear up the mess, but I was able to make > the > > restart, and finished the race 3rd out of 8 drivers. > I can top that. A couple of years ago I went racing indoor karts and I was > closing in on the kart in front. As we dived into the corner he spun out

and > as I swerved to avoid him I ran over his rear tyre. The next thing I knewI > was upside down, sliding across the track. When all the dust settled a > marshal came running over shouting at me not to move. Apparently the > "Incredible Hulk" effect is quite common and people have been known tothrow > the kart off them! The only injury was a grazed finger (I was glad I was > wearing the "gardening" gloves they supplied) and I recovered to race inthe > final, where I did considerably better than I do in GPL, coming first!Great

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> fun, but I'll have to sort myself out a go in a proper kart - the indoor > ones are just too slow. > > -- > > Tony Whitley > GPLRank -0.54 > MonsterRank 407 and falling... > "On some laps I'd get as many as fifteen corners really right, but Moss,

he > gets them all right on every lap" - Von Trips after the 1961 German Grand > Prix. > > >

"Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3b8a034a$[email hidden]...

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> > J. Todd Wasson <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > >Our company had a karting day yesterday, > > > > This didn't happen to be in the twin cities area of Minnesota, did it? > This > > sounds like a track a few miles from my place. > > Er... nope. The "Twin Cities" in this case would have to be Payerne and > Avenches, in the French part of Switzerland. > > Stephen

THAT explains the .ch in your address ;-)

"Mark Seery" wrote... > I'd reccomend a visit to Buckmore park in Kent or Daytona raceway inMilton > Keynes as a starting point Tony. They do arrive and drive sessions in > prokarts for a newbie to get a feel. Around 70mph tops so notexceptionally > fast but it's a good stepping stone before trying out a full-blown > 2-stroke... >I've heard good reports of both of them and I'm trying to arrange a day out. Talking of full blown, I've seen a 250cc 6-speed (I think) kart at a small kart track near here - it's the only motor vehicle I've ever seen that scared me just looking at it. Phenomenal! -- Tony Whitley GPLRank -0.54 MonsterRank 407 and falling... "On some laps I'd get as many as fifteen corners really right, but Moss, he gets them all right on every lap" - Von Trips after the 1961 German Grand Prix.

>I'd reccomend a visit to Buckmore park in Kent or Daytona raceway in Milton >Keynes as a starting point Tony. They do arrive and drive sessions in >prokarts for a newbie to get a feel. Around 70mph tops so not exceptionally >fast but it's a good stepping stone before trying out a full-blown >2-stroke... Hmmm. I don't know about you but I consider 70mph to be quite fast, especially when your butt is less than an inch off the ground. I concede that it is not the 140mph 125 shifter is capable of but, when it's my kids out there running that fast in a pack of 10+ kids, it's plenty fast enough. Dave Casey Casey#9 (NASCAR Racing 4) www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

LAN party in Vegas? I'm in. Name the date. -- "Racing! - Science for the action minded." mark "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:09Eh7.382810$[email hidden]... > Andre, > > ELEVEN HyperStimulators!!!! You lucky dogs! Please post a report on the > weekend's activities here. It should make fascinating reading. > > LAN Party in Vegas, anyone? > > --Steve Smith > > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:40:09 +0200, "Stephen Ferguson" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Hi all, > > > > > >Thought I'd drop in for a quick ramble (since r.a.s. is the perfect > target > > >audience). > > > > Hi Stephen, > > > > First of all, nice to see you're still alive and well :) > > > > I did a lot of karting the last two years, and yes, I think my > > simracing experience helped my greatly in my karting. > > Before simracing (before GPL :) I knew nothing about racing > > techniques. It was great to see how I could use these techniques in > > practice. Not only the how-to-drive techniques, but also the racing > > techniques. > > Unfortunately, as you have experienced yourself, karting races often > > end up in bumping and ramming races. Lately I don't kart often anymore > > because I got turned off with the average karting mentality. > > > > Btw, this weekend is the GPL LAN here in holland. The whole weekend we > > have GPL races with 11 Hyperstims, but tonight we start with some > > outdoor karting races. Its going to be fun to see how some of Europe's > > best GPL-ers will do on the real track :) > > > > Andre > >