With rFactor now the most central part of sim racing, it seems to me
that one of the hurdles for it to overcome is convincing the public of the
authenticity of it's "Mods" - both the tracks and particularly the cars that
will be depicted via rFactor but created via 3rd parties. Will it be
perceived to be amatuerish, fake and even childish? Many claim to have zero
interest in "fantasy" tracks for eg. I guess different modders will end up
with different reputations with reguard to this as do different companies.
A company like Papy would obtain licensing and from that be able to make
all sorts of claims as to the acuracy of tracks and physics engines,
claiming to have access to all sorts of data and working with all sorts of
people and race teams - impressive stuff. This can have a big psychlogical
effect on the average simmer with reguard to initial purchase and immersion.
So here's the question - if GPL never existed (blasphemy - LOL), and
some modder for rFactor did a mod based on those cars and tracks, and the
cars and tracks were absolutely identical to those in GPL in every way, how
would the sim community react? Would it be too slippery, hopelessly
unrealistic and difficult. Or would it go on to become the classic GPL has
with a widespead cult following? :)
Notable threadWould rFactor exist without GPL, and is rFactor modding healthy?
Byron Forbes questioned whether third-party rFactor mods would be accepted as authentic, prompting debate on GPL's legacy and the state of online sim racing. Some argued rFactor would not exist without GPL and that modders were more active than ever, while ymenard argued multiplayer rooms were empty and the scene was fragmenting across NR2003 mods and many sims. A long side discussion covered GPL driving style, slip angles and GPLRank benchmark times, plus joking about Snow White nicknames and coffee.
Automated summary.
Byron Forbes wrote:
> This can have a big psychlogical
> effect on the average simmer with reguard to initial purchase and immersion.
I buy sims in order to race cars I don't have access to on tracks I'd
like to drive but don't have the opportunity to. Believability (as
opposed to realism, I'm not that much of a hardass) is possibly the #1
thing for me in a sim, maybe #2 behind my interest in the subject
matter. My fantasy is to race a believable representation of a Lotus
79 around believable versions of Watkins Glen or Long Beach or
Zandvoort, not a fake car around a fake track.
I can understand people enjoying that tho, if they're more interested
in the competition than the 'fantasy simulation' aspect.
Byron Forbes wrote:
> So here's the question - if GPL never existed (blasphemy - LOL), and
> some modder for rFactor did a mod based on those cars and tracks, and the
> cars and tracks were absolutely identical to those in GPL in every way, how
> would the sim community react? Would it be too slippery, hopelessly
> unrealistic and difficult. Or would it go on to become the classic GPL has
> with a widespead cult following? :)
Since I didn't answer the question. I don't think a sim like rFactor
would exist if it weren't for GPL. It's sort of like asking if the
Beatles or Beethoven hadn't existed.
I'm sleepy.
Alanb
Alan Bernardo wrote:
> I'm sleepy.
>
> Alanb
Your filter has failed you Alan :)
"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:5P__e.118283$[email hidden]...
I know. I think it now exudes some sort of sleeping agent. :)
Alanb
Quoted text (7 lines)
> Alan Bernardo wrote: >> I'm sleepy. >> >> Alanb > > Your filter has failed you Alan :) >In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
> I'm sleepy.
>
>
> Alanb
>
I'm Sneezy.
EldredP Bashful.
DaveH is Doc.
DaveGF is Dopey.
TonyR is Happy.
Mitch is Grumpy.
BruceK is Snow White. <fluttering of eyelashes>
;)
MRSisson
--
LOAD "GPL",8
SEARCHING FOR GPL
LOADING
READY.
RUN
LOL!! :)
Thank you, Mikey. :)
Bruce
Michael Sisson wrote:
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> [email hidden] says...
>
>
> BruceK is Snow White. <fluttering of eyelashes>
LOL!! :)
Thank you, Mikey. :)
Bruce
> BruceK is Snow White. <fluttering of eyelashes>
Bruce <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:
Darn, I wanted to be Yoda.
dh
Quoted text (12 lines)
> LOL!! :) > Thank you, Mikey. :) > > Bruce > > Michael Sisson wrote: >> In article <[email hidden]>, >> [email hidden] says... >> >> >> BruceK is Snow White. <fluttering of eyelashes> >
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
hehe
now we know why you didn't get Yoda.
it should've read :
To be Yoda, I wanted, Darn!
:)
cheers
steve
Quoted text (19 lines)
> Bruce <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: > >> LOL!! :) >> Thank you, Mikey. :) >> >> Bruce >> >> Michael Sisson wrote: >>> In article <[email hidden]>, >>> [email hidden] says... >>> >>> >>> BruceK is Snow White. <fluttering of eyelashes> >> > > Darn, I wanted to be Yoda. > > > dhThat's what happens when you never win a damn race (and been with the same
woman for 21 years). Grrrrrr.... ;)
Mitch
"Michael Sisson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (40 lines)
> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... >> I'm sleepy. >> >> >> Alanb >> > > > I'm Sneezy. > > EldredP Bashful. > > DaveH is Doc. > > DaveGF is Dopey. > > TonyR is Happy. > > Mitch is Grumpy. > > > > > BruceK is Snow White. <fluttering of eyelashes> > > > > ;) > > > > MRSisson > -- > LOAD "GPL",8 > > SEARCHING FOR GPL > LOADING > READY. > RUN"Michael Sisson" ...
>> <snip>
> Mitch is Grumpy.
What the.... Mitch isn't nearly as grumpy as me!
Jan.
=---
"Michael Sisson" ...
What the.... Mitch isn't nearly as grumpy as me!
Jan.
=---
"Steve Whitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:OP3%e.2993$[email hidden]...
LOL - I saw the replies and thought "that got 'em talking" only to
realise I'd sent them to sleep! :)
Quoted text (36 lines)
> > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> Bruce <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: >> >>> LOL!! :) >>> Thank you, Mikey. :) >>> >>> Bruce >>> >>> Michael Sisson wrote: >>>> In article <[email hidden]>, >>>> [email hidden] says... >>>> >>>> >>>> BruceK is Snow White. <fluttering of eyelashes> >>> >> >> Darn, I wanted to be Yoda. >> >> >> dh > hehe > > now we know why you didn't get Yoda. > > it should've read : > > To be Yoda, I wanted, Darn! > > :) > > cheers > > steve >>With rFactor now the most central part of sim racing..
Because it's the newest?
Hell, what about Simmon's? He is the king of grumps ;)
Hey man, I finally won something dont take that away from me now :))
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:y49%e.8440$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (10 lines)
> "Michael Sisson" ... >>> <snip> >> Mitch is Grumpy. > > What the.... Mitch isn't nearly as grumpy as me! > > Jan. > =--- > >Jan Verschueren wrote:
Don't get him started Jan!
Happy
Quoted text (11 lines)
> "Michael Sisson" ... > >>><snip> >> >>Mitch is Grumpy. > > > What the.... Mitch isn't nearly as grumpy as me! > > Jan. > =---"Byron Forbes" wrote...
> With rFactor now the most central part of sim racing,
really?
> it seems to me that one of the hurdles for it to overcome
> is convincing the public of the authenticity of it's "Mods"
> - both the tracks and particularly the cars that will be
> depicted via rFactor but created via 3rd parties. Will it
> be perceived to be amatuerish, fake and even childish?
Why do you doubt a) the ability of the modders and/or the fidelity of their
data/partners in real racing. and, b) the ability of the simracing community
to accurately judge the fidelity of any mod emulating a real life series?
Racing sims gives one a very good idea of what racing is like from the
cockpit. Likewise, media coverage, interviews, biografies, literature and
the hard science of vehicle dynamics provide a mental picture of what to
expect. At its best this synergy produces something special, at its worst it
produces CMR4. You part with your money before reading RAS, you takes your
chances.
> Many claim to have zero interest in "fantasy" tracks for eg.
Yes, luckily some of these people know how to make tracks for rFactor. ;-)
> I guess different modders will end up with different reputations
> with reguard to this as do different companies.
Wrong approach. You keep linking the author to the perceived realism within
the simmer's mind; that's not how it works. A simulation or a
representation
of a venue is perceived as realistic because it is or isn't, not because of
who
made it.
Codemasters have had all sorts of licences and have been making all sorts of
claims for the CMR and TOCA series, but fact is they haven't made a half
decent simulation since the first incarnation of either series (and that
just because standards were lower then). Experienced simmers see right
through that sort of thing and if the "average simmer" is smart enough to
read RAS or RSC he will be duly informed about what's crud and what's not.
> So here's the question - if GPL never existed (blasphemy
> - LOL), and some modder for rFactor did a mod based
> on those cars and tracks, and the cars and tracks were
> absolutely identical to those in GPL in every way, how
> would the sim community react?
They'd laugh at the graphics, no doubt. -lol
Trouble is GPL does exist, did move the goalposts for what should be
considered a simulation to another continent and did refine the palet of a
generation of simmers. However, I think the responses since ISI got their
act together (people act as if rFactor has suddenly appeared to contend for
simracing's crown, but apart from the multi and the DX9 graphics F12k1 was
almost just as good), the appraisal RBR received and the following LFS has
managed to gather, show the simmer's bias is not towards a certain brand of
sims, but to sims period.
> Would it be too slippery, hopelessly unrealistic and difficult.
It would be different. rFactor has a vastly superior tyre model and,
contrary to GPL, lift from car bodies is simulated. Crucially, there's also
a couple Belgians involved with making the rFactor mods, so hopefully old
Spa wouldn't contain so many glaring mistakes. <g>
> Or would it go on to become the classic GPL has with
> a widespead cult following? :)
At the moment that looks unlikely as the multi still contains certain sone
league-unfriendly elements, but over time it could take over as the number
one online game. Certainly in view of no sim developer currently holding a
licence to a major motorsport.
And again that false premise: there is no "cult" GPL following. Ok, so Papy
were a bit lucky to nail the learning curve and the effort/reward balance in
the game the way they did, but even right after its release GPL was
acknowledged to be flawed. It's a mistake to think those who still play GPL
are blind to its faults, but, at the moment, there still isn't a league
vehicle as complete, as stable and as well understood for those who don't
fancy driving stock cars and that's the long and short of it.
Jan.
=---
Quoted text (7 lines)
> A company like Papy would obtain licensing and from that > be able to make all sorts of claims as to the acuracy of tracks > and physics engines, claiming to have access to all sorts of > data and working with all sorts of people and race teams - > impressive stuff. This can have a big psychlogical effect on > the average simmer with reguard to initial purchase and > immersion.>"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote With rFactor now the most
>central part of sim racing
Word of mouth alone is not enough to bring people into the multi rooms,
especially when the only promotion possible is within the very little circle
of the internet. Accept it, the multi-room is very empty. The same thing
that happened to flight-sims a couple of years ago is happening right now in
simracing.
I see absolutely no true momentum for rFactor. I see the same thing for it
that happened to every previous ISI-based sim : 6 months of pleasure,
plenty of possibilities non-fulfilled, then we'll move to something else.
Its like that girlfriend you know is too-good-to-be-true.
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
> It's a mistake to think those who still play GPL
> are blind to its faults, but, at the moment, there still isn't a league
> vehicle as complete, as stable and as well understood for those who don't
> fancy driving stock cars and that's the long and short of it.
Well, I've driven in plenty of GPL leagues and the only area where I see
rFactor lagging behind is possibly results reporting a la GPL replay
analyser but after playing around with the beta of Racecast it should only
be a matter of time before rFactor is up to speed and even as it stands
it's still a very league friendly sim.
The main reason rFactor is so appealing for me is that the really fast
guys drive in a very traditional manner. In GPL, the fast guys drive in
such a weird fashion that I'd dread to think what would happen if they
tried to drive like that in real life. Mind you, it's not as bad as
Crammond's GPX games where I nearly fall off my chair laughing whenever I
look at a world record exploit, ..I mean, lap...but still...
Steve Simpson wrote:
> The main reason rFactor is so appealing for me is that the really fast
> guys drive in a very traditional manner. In GPL, the fast guys drive in
> such a weird fashion that I'd dread to think what would happen if they
> tried to drive like that in real life.
The really fast guys in GPL don't drive anything like most people think
the really fast guys in GPL drive. For some reason there's this
misconception that it's fast in GPL to hang the ass out everywhere and
abuse the car, when the really fast guys keep the car going forward
with a minimum of sliding.
jason moyer wrote:
> The really fast guys in GPL don't drive anything like most people think
> the really fast guys in GPL drive. For some reason there's this
> misconception that it's fast in GPL to hang the ass out everywhere and
> abuse the car, when the really fast guys keep the car going forward
> with a minimum of sliding.
As a follow up, I should note that I'm not trying to apologize for
GPL's physics deficiencies. It's definitely too easy to drive the car
at ridiculous slip angles and you can drive moderately fast in a
totally unrealistic manner. Ultimately the really fast guys are the
same as the really fast guys in any other sim (rfactor) included in
that it's all about entry/apex/exit and keeping the car moving forward.
> The really fast guys in GPL don't drive anything like most people think
> the really fast guys in GPL drive. For some reason there's this
> misconception that it's fast in GPL to hang the ass out everywhere and
> abuse the car, when the really fast guys keep the car going forward
> with a minimum of sliding.
Hanging the rear is the fast way to go though.
Take a look at this description of an old (pre-downforce) racing
technique: http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/art_of_driving.htm, look
at the 4 wheel drift page.
The slip angles for maximum grip is around 4 to 5 degrees for modern
bias play slicks, and may have been even higher for the tires of
the cars used for 1967 F1 racing. This gives the visual appearance
that the car is drifting, but it's just the slip angle the tires
need to corner well.
The main thing about GPL is the amount of steering inputs it takes
to control the car while getting a fast time. Driver induced
understeer is often used when slowing to keep the car from spinning,
while normal counter-steering is used when acceleration out of
a corner. In this video of a Greg Stewart hot lap at Rouen, just
after the 2nd hairpin (a 90 degree turn to the left), there are
two right turns made under power and most of the time the steering
wheel is turned left.
http://jeffareid.net/cgi-bin/gplrngs.wmv
Jeff Reid wrote:
> In this video of a Greg Stewart hot lap at Rouen, just
> after the 2nd hairpin (a 90 degree turn to the left), there are
> two right turns made under power and most of the time the steering
> wheel is turned left.
>
> http://jeffareid.net/cgi-bin/gplrngs.wmv
Sure he's using opposite lock, but the car still isn't sliding much.
I've seen in car videos of Michael Schumacher using that much opposite
lock in a modern high-downforce F1 car. The thing that's unrealistic
in GPL is that you can fly into a turn with the car beyond a 45 degree
angle to the direction of travel and still pull it back and carry on at
a moderate speed. Doing that is slow, but you can still easily beat
the (incredibly slow) GPL benchmarks driving like that, so everyone
thinks it's fast.
Quoted text (15 lines)
>> In this video of a Greg Stewart hot lap at Rouen, just >> after the 2nd hairpin (a 90 degree turn to the left), there are >> two right turns made under power and most of the time the steering >> wheel is turned left. >> >> http://jeffareid.net/cgi-bin/gplrngs.wmv > > Sure he's using opposite lock, but the car still isn't sliding much. > I've seen in car videos of Michael Schumacher using that much opposite > lock in a modern high-downforce F1 car. The thing that's unrealistic > in GPL is that you can fly into a turn with the car beyond a 45 degree > angle to the direction of travel and still pull it back and carry on at > a moderate speed. Doing that is slow, but you can still easily beat > the (incredibly slow) GPL benchmarks driving like that, so everyone > thinks it's fast.
"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:LjC%e.9085$[email hidden]...
I guess only future mods, tracks and time will tell.
Sounds like the world is over the novelty of computer gaming and the
internet but there's no doubt the right products will bring them back. I
think a huge step forward would be the policing of all servers in all pickup
races even. Racecast is a step in the right direction but would be a lot
more meaningful with policing and a Rank ladder.
Quoted text (19 lines)
> >"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote With rFactor now the most > >central part of sim racing > > > > Word of mouth alone is not enough to bring people into the multi rooms, > especially when the only promotion possible is within the very little > circle of the internet. Accept it, the multi-room is very empty. The > same thing that happened to flight-sims a couple of years ago is happening > right now in simracing. > > > I see absolutely no true momentum for rFactor. I see the same thing for > it that happened to every previous ISI-based sim : 6 months of pleasure, > plenty of possibilities non-fulfilled, then we'll move to something else. > > > Its like that girlfriend you know is too-good-to-be-true. >>"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote
>> Its like that girlfriend you know is too-good-to-be-true.
>>
>
> I guess only future mods, tracks and time will tell.
You know there's a major problem when we have to say "time will tell" about
the quality of a simulation. We said the same about C:PR half a decade ago.
There's like a hundred *quality* road courses for NR2003, why should we
switch when all that there is... is "hope" for the future based only on what
the community will bring to us. Until that I'll be doing other sims. If
people wake up and start really showing mod interest in rFactor, people will
flock it. Not the opposite.
There's a reason why GPL was mod'ed that much : passion. I'm not so sure
the rFactor community is as passionnate as the GPL one, considering it
already lacks the historical values of tracks, cars and drivers that made
people skip work just to race the Lotus one more lap around Spa. There's no
such thing in rFactor.. NR2003's race on sunday/sim' it the rest of the
week and the tight multiplayer/community tools made the people passionate to
mod it. So what makes the people passionate for rFactor? It's all "great
possibilities", only that.
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
Quoted text (12 lines)
> There's a reason why GPL was mod'ed that much : passion. I'm not so > sure > the rFactor community is as passionnate as the GPL one, considering it > already lacks the historical values of tracks, cars and drivers that made > people skip work just to race the Lotus one more lap around Spa. > There's no > such thing in rFactor.. NR2003's race on sunday/sim' it the rest of the > week and the tight multiplayer/community tools made the people > passionate to > mod it. So what makes the people passionate for rFactor? It's all > "great > possibilities", only that.In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...
>
> Wake up and smell the coffee.
>
Only if it has been fresh roasted to just past 2nd crack from green
coffee beans in a popcorn popper, let to sit for 24-48 hours
(ventilated), ground with a burr type grinder, and brewed with 95-98C
filtered water in a French press.
:)
I just spent the weekend reading up on making good coffee. ;)
MRSisson
--
LOAD "GPL",8
SEARCHING FOR GPL
LOADING
READY.
RUN
"Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
not wanting to start an arguement :)
I loved gpl. When it first came out, I used to full season full length
races offline. did the odd bit of online racing, but found the pickup races
not worth it. (some were good and can remember running against some of the
names here in RAS.) But my work hours at the time prohibited me from
joining a league.
No disrespect for the people that did marvels with gpl. But most, not all,
of the mods to gpl, where texture, or skinning if you like.
When referring to "modding" a game, it usually means whole new cars and
physics models, not just tracks.
Yes the gpl community is passionate about what they do. But theres a
sizable modding community that was gearing up, just waiting for the release
of rFactor. You've got the Pits getting involved. ORSM who did the V8
Supercars for f1c, are in the process of making the same mod for rF. If RSC
is working, have a look at the mod teams there in the rFactor Modding sub
forum.
head over to the Pits. since the release of Dave Noonan's tools, theres
some old gpl and n2k3 track editors moving on to learning how to work with
rF. I know a few of those guys. They're just as passionate about making
tracks for rF as they were for any other sim.
just my 0.02 worth :)
cheers
steve
Quoted text (15 lines)
>> There's a reason why GPL was mod'ed that much : passion. I'm not so >> sure >> the rFactor community is as passionnate as the GPL one, considering it >> already lacks the historical values of tracks, cars and drivers that made >> people skip work just to race the Lotus one more lap around Spa. >> There's no >> such thing in rFactor.. NR2003's race on sunday/sim' it the rest of the >> week and the tight multiplayer/community tools made the people >> passionate to >> mod it. So what makes the people passionate for rFactor? It's all >> "great >> possibilities", only that. > > Please, there's more passionate rFactor modders around than there's ever > been for another sim. Wake up and smell the coffee.In article <WVm0f.6613$[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] (Steve Whitty) wrote:
> When referring to "modding" a game, it usually means whole new cars
> and physics models, not just tracks.
The great thing about GPL (until engine swapping and other messing about
muddied the water later on) was that the physics was fixed. You could mess
with the setups and swap cars in search of elusive speed, but the core sim
(and AI for offline) was narrow, involving, and believable enough to allow
us to just get on with the racing and forget what might be coming. I
wasn't waiting for a new sim or mod or track or tweak, I was just having a
great time!
Maybe it's an old dog/new tricks thing, but I long for a simpler life and
a single sim... maybe an A1 GP style sim project that frees us from
car/sim/mod choices and allows us to just race again.
Andrew McP... still secretly longing for GPL2 I suppose.
Michael Sisson <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
I prefer roasted to full city, and a vacuum pot. ;)
Quoted text (17 lines)
> In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > says... >> >> Wake up and smell the coffee. >> > > Only if it has been fresh roasted to just past 2nd crack from green > coffee beans in a popcorn popper, let to sit for 24-48 hours > (ventilated), ground with a burr type grinder, and brewed with 95-98C > filtered water in a French press. > >:) > > I just spent the weekend reading up on making good coffee. ;) > > > MRSisson
"Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Well, there's a great time being had by those with the F3 v1.2 mod,
trainers and many the tintop. Just as much of a buzz as when GPL was
released and an even bigger buzz with respect to what's in the works.
Quoted text (14 lines)
> In article <WVm0f.6613$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] (Steve Whitty) wrote: > >> When referring to "modding" a game, it usually means whole new cars >> and physics models, not just tracks. > > The great thing about GPL (until engine swapping and other messing about > muddied the water later on) was that the physics was fixed. You could mess > with the setups and swap cars in search of elusive speed, but the core sim > (and AI for offline) was narrow, involving, and believable enough to allow > us to just get on with the racing and forget what might be coming. I > wasn't waiting for a new sim or mod or track or tweak, I was just having a > great time! >
"Michael Sisson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Maybe the coffee theme in this thread is to wake up those who were
initially being put to sleep! :)
Quoted text (15 lines)
> In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > says... >> >> Wake up and smell the coffee. >> > > Only if it has been fresh roasted to just past 2nd crack from green > coffee beans in a popcorn popper, let to sit for 24-48 hours > (ventilated), ground with a burr type grinder, and brewed with 95-98C > filtered water in a French press. > > :) > > I just spent the weekend reading up on making good coffee. ;) >In article
<43431659$0$13320$[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] (Byron Forbes) wrote:
> Well, there's a great time being had by those with the F3 v1.2 mod
I honestly can't see what the F3 fuss is about. I actually prefer the
default trainers to the F3 mod.
Andrew McP
"Jeff Reid" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:Kx10f.80850$ct5.20952@fed1read04:
Kyalami is pretty tough, but many others are very easy, like Silverstone or
'Ring. Some of benchmark laps actually contain off-track excursions ('Ring
and Zandvoort, I think). My first sub-benchmark lap at 'Ring had 4 offs
(yeah, you can laugh). So basically, you can go negative with variety of
driving styles, including going wildly sideways. It doesn't mean that's a
fast way. Try to run sub-8 lap going into the turns with 45 degree slip ;)
Alex.
Quoted text (22 lines)
>>> In this video of a Greg Stewart hot lap at Rouen, just >>> after the 2nd hairpin (a 90 degree turn to the left), there are >>> two right turns made under power and most of the time the steering >>> wheel is turned left. >>> >>> http://jeffareid.net/cgi-bin/gplrngs.wmv >> >> Sure he's using opposite lock, but the car still isn't sliding much. >> I've seen in car videos of Michael Schumacher using that much opposite >> lock in a modern high-downforce F1 car. The thing that's unrealistic >> in GPL is that you can fly into a turn with the car beyond a 45 degree >> angle to the direction of travel and still pull it back and carry on at >> a moderate speed. Doing that is slow, but you can still easily beat >> the (incredibly slow) GPL benchmarks driving like that, so everyone >> thinks it's fast. > > Ok, I didn't know how far sideways you meant. Regarding the GPL > benchmarks, Kyalami is pretty tough, and it takes quite a while to learn > the ring, although I finally got down to a 8:15.32. Some players have > posted it's taken them several years to go negative on the GPL Rank, > which seems challenging enough to me. I spent about 9 months on and > off doing this."Steve Whitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:WVm0f.6613$[email hidden]:
> When referring to "modding" a game, it usually means whole new cars and
> physics models, not just tracks.
If you already have very good physics, it's the tracks that are really
needed. Considering that you only see a small part of the cockpit, and you
have no time to look at it anyway, whole new cars don't do much good :).
Unless you mean simulating really new cars, like being able to run WRC car
on a gravel road in GPL. But I don't think anybody has achieved that level
of modding.
Alex.
"alexti" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
your last bit was what I was referring to. the conversation was heading in
the direction that there wasn't a big modding or passionate community for
rF compared to gpl. It all depends on what you consider "modding". gpl is
big in the sense of car shapes, skins, and sounds. a couple of physics
changes. but thats it. gpl is still basically what you bought in 1998.
gpl, like n2k3, is very difficult to change whats there to simulate
something totally different. rF on the other hand, has got the vehicle
modders extremely happy, making all new classes of racing, both tin top and
open wheel. the physics etc are edited with notepad. you don't have to hack
the exe to change a value.
but they are two different games. but to say one community is more
passionate than another, as one poster said, is totally wrong. how do you
measure passion?
like I said before, I used to play gpl all the time. in its time it was the
benchmark. but I feel its starting to show its age, with the tyre modelling
and the online collision detection.
gpl will always be an important part of sim racing history. it changed the
rules.
cheers
steve
Quoted text (14 lines)
> "Steve Whitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:WVm0f.6613$[email hidden]: > >> When referring to "modding" a game, it usually means whole new cars and >> physics models, not just tracks. > > If you already have very good physics, it's the tracks that are really > needed. Considering that you only see a small part of the cockpit, and you > have no time to look at it anyway, whole new cars don't do much good :). > Unless you mean simulating really new cars, like being able to run WRC car > on a gravel road in GPL. But I don't think anybody has achieved that level > of modding. > > Alex.[email hidden] (alexti) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
> Kyalami is pretty tough, but many others are very easy, like
> Silverstone or 'Ring. Some of benchmark laps actually contain
The 'Ring easy? :D That cracks me up...
--
Ped Xing
[email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
Well, they're quicker, and quicker is good. :-) I like the advanced
trainer too. It's a fun little car. I had a blast in an online race at
Mills Short in that thing. There was some rubbing yet the finishing rate
was good. On the other hand, both Lime Rock races I joined tonight in
the F3s were crash fests. In the new 1.2 update it seems its easy to
cook your tires so I was getting a very oversteery car within just a
couple laps which led to crashes. I guess I just have to tweak my setup.
Hmm, so given all that, you'd think I should prefer the trainers... yet
I spend most of my time running the F3s.
--
Ped Xing
Quoted text (9 lines)
> In article ><43431659$0$13320$[email hidden] >>, > [email hidden] (Byron Forbes) wrote: > >> Well, there's a great time being had by those with the F3 v1.2 mod > > I honestly can't see what the F3 fuss is about. I actually prefer the > default trainers to the F3 mod."Steve Whitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:qkI0f.7670$[email hidden]:
I am not sure that this ability to edit physics easily is so positive. For
many years GPL was the only sim, which meant that all simracers were
running the same game and one was certain to login on VROC and find a good
race. After NR2003 with all different mods came, plus several other good
sims, plus 65's mod plus the engine swapper, the community started to get
more and more fragmented, resulting in harder races to find at any given
time. Ability to easily create different classes of racing contribute to
this problem. Realistically, one could have Formula Ford, Formula Renault,
Toyota Atlantic and bunch of other series, but wouldn't it be preferrable
to have a full field race in any of them rather than 4 car race in one's
preferred class? (sometimes, even 2 car race may be exciting, but
generally, the more cars are in, the more chances to have fun race).
Alex
Quoted text (27 lines)
> "alexti" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> "Steve Whitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in >> news:WVm0f.6613$[email hidden]: >> >>> When referring to "modding" a game, it usually means whole new cars >>> and physics models, not just tracks. >> >> If you already have very good physics, it's the tracks that are really >> needed. Considering that you only see a small part of the cockpit, and >> you have no time to look at it anyway, whole new cars don't do much >> good :). Unless you mean simulating really new cars, like being able >> to run WRC car on a gravel road in GPL. But I don't think anybody has >> achieved that level of modding. >> >> Alex. > > your last bit was what I was referring to. the conversation was > heading in the direction that there wasn't a big modding or passionate > community for rF compared to gpl. It all depends on what you consider > "modding". gpl is big in the sense of car shapes, skins, and sounds. > a couple of physics changes. but thats it. gpl is still basically > what you bought in 1998. gpl, like n2k3, is very difficult to change > whats there to simulate something totally different. rF on the other > hand, has got the vehicle modders extremely happy, making all new > classes of racing, both tin top and open wheel. the physics etc are > edited with notepad. you don't have to hack the exe to change a value.Ped Xing <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
I meant that benchmarks at those tracks are easy to beat, not that the
tracks are easy :)
Alex.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> [email hidden] (alexti) wrote in > news:[email hidden]: > >> Kyalami is pretty tough, but many others are very easy, like >> Silverstone or 'Ring. Some of benchmark laps actually contain > > The 'Ring easy? :D That cracks me up...snipped
. Realistically, one could have Formula Ford, Formula Renault,
> Toyota Atlantic and bunch of other series, but wouldn't it be preferrable
> to have a full field race in any of them rather than 4 car race in one's
> preferred class? (sometimes, even 2 car race may be exciting, but
> generally, the more cars are in, the more chances to have fun race).
>
> Alex
I totally agree. but my view is that the quality and fun factor of the
various mods will differ greatly. In time, I think people will drift
towards the better mods for online racing. and use the others for offline.
cheers
steve
In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] (Ped Xing) wrote:
> In the new 1.2 update it seems its easy to
> cook your tires so I was getting a very oversteery car
My experience too, and fiddling with the setup hasn't helped me much. No
doubt it's a realism thing and I just don't have the reaction speeds to
catch an F3 car in time. Fortunately the trainers are more forgiving IME.
Andrew McP
> I totally agree. but my view is that the quality and fun factor of the
> various mods will differ greatly. In time, I think people will drift
> towards the better mods for online racing. and use the others for
> offline.
I agree that diverse modding is a bad thing in terms of finding online
pickup races but these days there's leagues for pretty much any series/mod
that's out there so there's plenty of chances for good, competitive online
racing. I'm involved in and F3 and Trainer leagues for rFactor and the
racing has generally been superb.
> Kyalami is pretty tough, but many others are very easy, like Silverstone or
> 'Ring.
Maybe for a player like you with a GPL Rank of -52, putting you in the top
7% of the GPL rank ratings. I'm at -12 and was just happy to be able to
go negative. As mentioned before I've seen posts where some players
stated it took them 4 years to go negative.
For myself, after spending a few sessions to get under 1:29 at Monaco,
it's not easy either. The Ring is just big, not only do you have to learn
140+ turns, but you also have to remember all the dips, drops, rises, bumps,
and jumps.
Regarding the Ring, only about 7% of the 56,000+ submitted laps for the
Ring are sub 8 minutes. Less than 20% (probably around 16%) of the
submitted laps are better than the reference time.
> wouldn't it be preferrable to have a full field race in any of them
If you want a full field, you can always run NR2003 on the Sierra
server and join in a super speedway (restrictor plate) race. 300
to 500 players online depending on the time and day of week, and
several 35+ player races. The main reason it's so popular is
little racing skill is required. The only time you lift on the
throttle is to avoid rear-ending the car in front of you while
drafting. So the skills you learn are wreck avoidance, pitting
well, and getting lucky enough to get right back into a draft
after exiting the pits. Although all the cars are the same,
for wreck avoidance I recommend a "Dodge".
"Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Ditto.
The dilution spoken of here is no different to real life. And like real
life, mods, sims and leagues will evolve and the better drivers will migrate
to the leagues that have the sims, mods and fields they want. Also, there
has been a lot of GPL F2s etc and seperate divisions at clubs. The F2s and
seperate divisions will now take form in different mods - we already have
FormulaIS (slow take up), F3 and trainers.
Quoted text (10 lines)
>> I totally agree. but my view is that the quality and fun factor of the >> various mods will differ greatly. In time, I think people will drift >> towards the better mods for online racing. and use the others for >> offline. > > I agree that diverse modding is a bad thing in terms of finding online > pickup races but these days there's leagues for pretty much any series/mod > that's out there so there's plenty of chances for good, competitive online > racing. I'm involved in and F3 and Trainer leagues for rFactor and the > racing has generally been superb.
"Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
The wing settings are totally different - you need to see to them for
starters.
Quoted text (11 lines)
> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] (Ped Xing) wrote: > >> In the new 1.2 update it seems its easy to >> cook your tires so I was getting a very oversteery car > > My experience too, and fiddling with the setup hasn't helped me much. No > doubt it's a realism thing and I just don't have the reaction speeds to > catch an F3 car in time. Fortunately the trainers are more forgiving IME. > > Andrew McPAndrew MacPherson wrote:
> Andrew McP... still secretly longing for GPL2 I suppose.
I'd be willing to bet $50 that GPL2 will be a reality in the relatively
near future. Maybe not until late next year or 2007, and maybe not as
a stand alone sim, but we'll have it.
"Jeff Reid" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:SoL0f.2753$lq6.1858@fed1read01:
What I was saying has no relation to my rank, if you check GPL Rank, you'll
see that Kyalami benchmark is at 104.5% of WR, Nuerburgring benchmark is at
108.1% and Silverstone's is at 107.9%. If you check your own times, you're
at 104.3% at Kyalami (barely better than benchmark), 106.6% at the Ring and
106.8% at Silverstone (considerable better than benchmark).
>
> For myself, after spending a few sessions to get under 1:29 at Monaco,
> it's not easy either. The Ring is just big, not only do you have to
> learn 140+ turns, but you also have to remember all the dips, drops,
> rises, bumps, and jumps.Remembering them is definitely an advantage :)
>
> Regarding the Ring, only about 7% of the 56,000+ submitted laps for the
> Ring are sub 8 minutes. Less than 20% (probably around 16%) of the
> submitted laps are better than the reference time.Sub-8 is pretty difficult at 'Ring. Not sure where you got those 20% and
16% numbers. If you check statistics for the 'Ring, you'll see that 18.6%
of drivers are under 8:17.623 and 16.7% of drivers are between 8:17.623 and
8:28.663. However, that's not the right way to calculate it because it
takes into account laps in all cars, and BRM, Coop and other are obviously
harder to beat benchmark it. There's no option to select "best laps for the
driver", but let's assume everybody set their best time at 'Ring in Lotus.
Then we have 22.9% under 8:17.623 and 17.1% between 8:17.623 and 8:28.663.
So probably around 30% of drivers went negative at the 'Ring. If you also
consider number of laps slower than 9 minutes (I would assume those
haven't put any real efforts in getting a good lap there), you can get even
higher percentage.
Alex.
Quoted text (7 lines)
>> Kyalami is pretty tough, but many others are very easy, like >> Silverstone or 'Ring. > > Maybe for a player like you with a GPL Rank of -52, putting you in the > top 7% of the GPL rank ratings. I'm at -12 and was just happy to be > able to go negative. As mentioned before I've seen posts where some > players stated it took them 4 years to go negative."Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:4344320e$0$13317$[email hidden].
au:
> The dilution spoken of here is no different to real life. And like
> real
> life, mods, sims and leagues will evolve and the better drivers will
> migrate to the leagues that have the sims, mods and fields they want.In real life the causes of the dilution are different, geographics and
money is the main one, so typically there're very similar series running in
different regions. And many of the drivers would love to migrate to F1 if
they could, by most part it's not their choice, they drive where they can
get a seat. In online racing, the class is individual's personal choice.
Alex.
> So probably around 30% of drivers went negative at the 'Ring.
Still it's a relatively small number of players that have done
this. I remember that the 500 second club (under 8:20) was considered
an accomplishment for most players that did it (including me).
Jeff Reid wrote:
> > So probably around 30% of drivers went negative at the 'Ring.
>
> Still it's a relatively small number of players that have done
> this. I remember that the 500 second club (under 8:20) was considered
> an accomplishment for most players that did it (including me).
I dunno. I'm relatively slow, have barely driven the ring (as much as
I love the track, I just never feel like dedicating 2 hours to
practicing it), and I'm at like 8:25, and I believe that was with at
least one major off. 8:20 for someone who is average and takes time to
practice shouldn't be a big deal.
Quoted text (9 lines)
>> Still it's a relatively small number of players that have done >> this. I remember that the 500 second club (under 8:20) was considered >> an accomplishment for most players that did it (including me). > > I dunno. I'm relatively slow, have barely driven the ring (as much as > I love the track, I just never feel like dedicating 2 hours to > practicing it), and I'm at like 8:25, and I believe that was with at > least one major off. 8:20 for someone who is average and takes time to > practice shouldn't be a big deal.>> I'm relatively slow, have barely driven the ring
> How many laps do you think you've run at the ring?
>
> After running NR2003 super speedways online on and off for a while,
I looked for you at GPL Rank, no scores, but I noticed you were
Jason Moyer 40 Cloudy, a reference to NR2003 with the fastest
weather settings for super speedways?
"Jeff Reid" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:fDg1f.13436$lq6.5961@fed1read01:
> I spent about 2 hours one night, with enough gas for 3 laps, just
> resettig and continuing if I ran out of gas or crashed, re-learning
> GPL, the Lotus and the Ring. The next day, I got a 8:18.xx on my
> first lap so I stopped for that day. I did another session for
> about an hour or so to bring it down to 8:15.32.Did anybody mention that beating benchmark at 'Ring is easy ;)
>
> Getting a sub 1:29 at Monaco took me almost as long, and I still don't
> feel like I've figured out Monaco yet.Monaco is a different kind of a track, and if you're running setup you
described in one of the previous posts, you're probably putting yourself at
serious disadvantage.
Alex.
"alexti" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
The regional aspect is also a factor in simming as well - time zones.
Quoted text (17 lines)
> "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:4344320e$0$13317$[email hidden]. > au: > >> The dilution spoken of here is no different to real life. And like >> real >> life, mods, sims and leagues will evolve and the better drivers will >> migrate to the leagues that have the sims, mods and fields they want. > In real life the causes of the dilution are different, geographics and > money is the main one, so typically there're very similar series running > in > different regions. And many of the drivers would love to migrate to F1 if > they could, by most part it's not their choice, they drive where they can > get a seat. In online racing, the class is individual's personal choice. > > Alex. >>> Getting a sub 1:29 at Monaco took me almost as long, and I still don't
>> feel like I've figured out Monaco yet.
> Monaco is a different kind of a track, and if you're running setup you
> described in one of the previous posts, you're probably putting yourself at
> serious disadvantage.
I'll try softer springs, which seem to not require that I be as smooth
as the stiffer springs. Still not sure about the sway bar total, I'm
usually around 320 to 340 with the Lotus (like 160/170).
Jeff Reid wrote:
> I looked for you at GPL Rank, no scores, but I noticed you were
> Jason Moyer 40 Cloudy, a reference to NR2003 with the fastest
> weather settings for super speedways?
I believe my GPL (and PTA/GTP) times are listed as "Jason Moyer 70
Clear".
>> I looked for you at GPL Rank, no scores, but I noticed you were
>> Jason Moyer 40 Cloudy, a reference to NR2003 with the fastest
>> weather settings for super speedways?
>
> I believe my GPL (and PTA/GTP) times are listed as "Jason Moyer 70
> Clear".
I see them now, some good times (better than mine at least). If
you spent as much time on the Ring as I did on Monaco (still
working on this one), you'd be well below 8:20.
"Jeff Reid" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:CBj1f.19619$lq6.19518@fed1read01:
Frankly, at times you run, I don't think you'll notice the difference
between 160 and 170. At least I can't. What is noticable is the balance
between front and rear. Set it so the car is balanced in T1 and through the
tunnel. I would try softer bars though, something like 130/130. Another
thing is, do you run with steering hack? AFAIR it's on by default in GPL.
It causes the steering ratio to decrease at slow speeds (for example, if
you have 14:1 in your setup, in slow corner it may progressively go to 7:1
or something like that). Needless to say it messes up your car control. At
Monaco it is particularly noticeable as there're so many slow corners. The
caveat is if you're used to run 14:1 or slower you will have some hard time
adjusting to 10:1, which is about what you need to make hairpins.
Anyway, whatever you do with setup, you need to be super-smooth at Monaco.
Then all those slow corners suddenly will become not so slow.
Alex.
