PS2 racing sim physics sucks?

Got a new PS2 today with the Logitech FF wheel. GT3 is a joke. The cars just slide around like crazy as if you are driving on ice. My copy of F1 2001 is coming in tomorrow. Hopefully this will be better. Still these sims are not even close to driving a real car.

".." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >F-355 Challenge on the Dreamcast is still the only console racer that > >delivers a simulation feel with solid racing action. I know it can bedone > >on the PS2, it's just a matter of someone stepping up to the plate and > >delivering. > > But it's not real FF, only rumble. I certainly didn't mean to imply that F-355 for the DC has force feedback... clearly it does not. I don't even have rumble packs for my Dreamcast. What I meant by simulation "feel" in this sense was the way the car handles. I've yet to see force feedback on any console that compares to GPL or NASCAR 4 on the PC. John

".." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >Which Logitech FF wheel did you get? There are now 4 different Logitech > >models that work with the PS2: LWFF GP, LWFF GT, Logitech Driving Force,and > >now... the MOMO. > > Logitech Driving Force for PS2 (the blue one). Can the wheel make any > difference? The FF feels kind of weird. The resistance is nevercontinuous. > The motors are turning either on or off. It can, although with the force feedback I've seen thus far on the PS2 racers which support it, I don't think it's enough to amount to anything. What you are describing is the fault of the game software, not the wheel or the PS2. The MOMO might give you a noticable improvement in feel because of its higher quality coupling mechanics, but it won't control what the program's telling it to do. The same LWF GP that leaves me with the same feeling you describe above in GT3, is much more satisfying in NASCAR 4 (although I still don't like the "gritty" feel of the gear driven feedback). At least with the Driving Force, you've got paddle shifters! The buttons on the GP are very hard to find when road course racing in N4, or racing in GPL. John

Which Logitech FF wheel did you get? There are now 4 different Logitech models that work with the PS2: LWFF GP, LWFF GT, Logitech Driving Force, and now... the MOMO. As for GT3, the force feedback is pretty sorry. You can go in and narrow the dead zone and increase the linearity to max which will help it some, but it's still not comparable GPL or NASCAR 4, or even SCGT, for that matter. I don't think this is the wheel's fault. Console developers just haven't been in the business of giving simulation quality force feedback in this fledgling enterprise. Give them a little more time. I'm hoping for better in F1 2001, but I've already heard that it's pretty much token force feedback. There are some adjustments to it, but not enough to achieve the desired results. Still, it's better than the force feedback in the PC version of F1 2001... ie. not at all! F-355 Challenge on the Dreamcast is still the only console racer that delivers a simulation feel with solid racing action. I know it can be done on the PS2, it's just a matter of someone stepping up to the plate and delivering. John Cauthen .. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Got a new PS2 today with the Logitech FF wheel. GT3 is a joke. The carsjust > slide around like crazy as if you are driving on ice. My copy of F1 2001is > coming in tomorrow. Hopefully this will be better. Still these sims arenot > even close to driving a real car.

>Which Logitech FF wheel did you get? There are now 4 different Logitech >models that work with the PS2: LWFF GP, LWFF GT, Logitech Driving Force, and >now... the MOMO. Logitech Driving Force for PS2 (the blue one). Can the wheel make any difference? The FF feels kind of weird. The resistance is never continuous. The motors are turning either on or off.

>F-355 Challenge on the Dreamcast is still the only console racer that >delivers a simulation feel with solid racing action. I know it can be done >on the PS2, it's just a matter of someone stepping up to the plate and >delivering. But it's not real FF, only rumble.

.. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Got a new PS2 today with the Logitech FF wheel. GT3 is a joke. The cars just > slide around like crazy as if you are driving on ice. My copy of F1 2001 is Some of the guys at my uni (Loughborough) developed the physics engine for Vanishing Point. Apparently, this is exactly what it feels like if you model the tyres realistically. You need mu (friction) values around 2.0 to make it "feel" right; witness also the 'realistic' tyres in GT2. Jonny

> Some of the guys at my uni (Loughborough) developed the physics > engine for Vanishing Point. And what a fine job they did! - Vanishing Point has the best feeling of road contact I've ever experienced in a game. In fact I think that the physics on the whole leave games like Gran Turismo 2,3 in the dust. Although it has a legion of fans, it's still one of the most underrated games ever. I don't suppose anyone has any details on the sequel i.e. is it coming to X-box or PS2? VP is in my personal top 5 games for the last 20 years.

"John Cauthen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<9rbsi1$3qns$[email hidden]>... > I don't think this is the wheel's fault. Console developers just haven't > been in the business of giving simulation quality force feedback in this > fledgling enterprise. Give them a little more time. Haven't tried F1 2001 yet. However, Nascar Heat has pretty nice forces (doesn't look too amazing, but there is a definite sim feel to it, at least what the forces are concerned). Doesn't surprise me too much, really - given that it comes out of the same oven as (the vastly underrated, IMHO) Viper Racing on PC did a while back... ..tom

The thing that killed GT3 for me was the behaviour of the cars in the air. For a sim which was supposed to have top-notch physics modelling, someone made a big error with the aero and centre of pressure, or maybe the whole thing is just one big black box with no actual physics model. Every single car tries to do a backflip when launched off a mild bump in the game. It's ridiculous. Stephen .. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Got a new PS2 today with the Logitech FF wheel. GT3 is a joke. The carsjust > slide around like crazy as if you are driving on ice. My copy of F1 2001is > coming in tomorrow. Hopefully this will be better. Still these sims arenot > even close to driving a real car.

On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:39:10 +0100, "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote: >The thing that killed GT3 for me was the behaviour of the cars in the air. Haven't seen that yet. :) When driving cars on the limit; you get to the limit of adhesion. Hence, you're then more floating on, sliding on ice, what you will. Correct behavior, isn't it? Anyway, haven't played it too much yet, but jeez I love the replays! :) Just using it as a target for my own sim mainly though (in graphics, not physics). Ruud van Gaal Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Ruud van Gaal <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:39:10 +0100, "Stephen Ferguson" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >The thing that killed GT3 for me was the behaviour of the cars in theair.

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> > Haven't seen that yet. :) > When driving cars on the limit; you get to the limit of adhesion. > Hence, you're then more floating on, sliding on ice, what you will. > Correct behavior, isn't it? > Anyway, haven't played it too much yet, but jeez I love the replays! > :) > > Just using it as a target for my own sim mainly though (in graphics, > not physics). > >

Hi Ruud, I wasn't referring to the sliding behaviour of the cars. I agree that at the limit, and on the ground, you get this dancing on ice feel. So, the GT3 cars are fine as long as you have all four wheels on the ground. However, as soon as you crest a hump at speed, things go to hell. Instead of a natural jump, like you get in GPL, RallyMasters and even NFS-Porsche, you get this absolutely bizarre instant wheelie. I've had a Celica rally car stand right up on its tail on the Smoky Mountain circuit at the jump after the S/F, despite purposely hammering the brakes just before the crest. Experience from real-world driving and hours of GPL and RallyMasters dictates that the car should certainly not rotate backwards, and especially not until the thing is vertical! I think it's a bizarre bug with the downforce. Stephen

I can honestly say that I have never seen that behavior in the game At least nothing to the extreme that you are talking about "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3bdd6bf1$[email hidden]...

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> > Ruud van Gaal <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:39:10 +0100, "Stephen Ferguson" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >The thing that killed GT3 for me was the behaviour of the cars in the > air. > > > > Haven't seen that yet. :) > > When driving cars on the limit; you get to the limit of adhesion. > > Hence, you're then more floating on, sliding on ice, what you will. > > Correct behavior, isn't it? > > Anyway, haven't played it too much yet, but jeez I love the replays! > > :) > > > > Just using it as a target for my own sim mainly though (in graphics, > > not physics). > > > > > > Hi Ruud, > > I wasn't referring to the sliding behaviour of the cars. I agree that at > the limit, and on the ground, you get this dancing on ice feel. So, the

GT3

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> cars are fine as long as you have all four wheels on the ground. However, > as soon as you crest a hump at speed, things go to hell. Instead of a > natural jump, like you get in GPL, RallyMasters and even NFS-Porsche, you > get this absolutely bizarre instant wheelie. I've had a Celica rally car > stand right up on its tail on the Smoky Mountain circuit at the jump after > the S/F, despite purposely hammering the brakes just before the crest. > Experience from real-world driving and hours of GPL and RallyMasters > dictates that the car should certainly not rotate backwards, and

especially

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> not until the thing is vertical! I think it's a bizarre bug with the > downforce. > > Stephen > > >

Well, it happens consistently for me, not always to the point of pointing straight to heaven, but always an unnatural rotation backwards. Doesn't matter what type of car or road surface. It happened in GT2 as well. Stephen Cliff Roman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I can honestly say that I have never seen that behavior in the game > > At least nothing to the extreme that you are talking about > > > > "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3bdd6bf1$[email hidden]... > > > > Ruud van Gaal <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:39:10 +0100, "Stephen Ferguson" > > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > >The thing that killed GT3 for me was the behaviour of the cars in the > > air. > > > > > > Haven't seen that yet. :) > > > When driving cars on the limit; you get to the limit of adhesion. > > > Hence, you're then more floating on, sliding on ice, what you will. > > > Correct behavior, isn't it? > > > Anyway, haven't played it too much yet, but jeez I love the replays! > > > :) > > > > > > Just using it as a target for my own sim mainly though (in graphics, > > > not physics). > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ruud, > > > > I wasn't referring to the sliding behaviour of the cars. I agree that

at > > the limit, and on the ground, you get this dancing on ice feel. So, the > GT3 > > cars are fine as long as you have all four wheels on the ground.However, > > as soon as you crest a hump at speed, things go to hell. Instead of a > > natural jump, like you get in GPL, RallyMasters and even NFS-Porsche,you > > get this absolutely bizarre instant wheelie. I've had a Celica rallycar > > stand right up on its tail on the Smoky Mountain circuit at the jumpafter

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> > the S/F, despite purposely hammering the brakes just before the crest. > > Experience from real-world driving and hours of GPL and RallyMasters > > dictates that the car should certainly not rotate backwards, and > especially > > not until the thing is vertical! I think it's a bizarre bug with the > > downforce. > > > > Stephen > > > > > > > >

On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:47:53 +0100, "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Ruud van Gaal <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:39:10 +0100, "Stephen Ferguson" >> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >The thing that killed GT3 for me was the behaviour of the cars in the >air.

... >I wasn't referring to the sliding behaviour of the cars. I agree that at >the limit, and on the ground, you get this dancing on ice feel. Yes, I was responding to the poster before you. So I think we agree here. :)

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> So, the GT3 >cars are fine as long as you have all four wheels on the ground. However, >as soon as you crest a hump at speed, things go to hell. Instead of a >natural jump, like you get in GPL, RallyMasters and even NFS-Porsche, you >get this absolutely bizarre instant wheelie. I've had a Celica rally car >stand right up on its tail on the Smoky Mountain circuit at the jump after >the S/F, despite purposely hammering the brakes just before the crest.

Hammering the brakes JUST before a jump will mean the front suspension is pressed, and if you let go again you get a pitching moment which will send your car's front up. Depending a bit on when you brake and when you release though. >Experience from real-world driving and hours of GPL and RallyMasters >dictates that the car should certainly not rotate backwards, and especially >not until the thing is vertical! Hehe, cool. Perhaps they saw too many videos where F1 cars would fly backwards. Perhaps they had an equation wrong (one negative sign can really screw everything up). I'll see if I can get the same behavior. Ruud van Gaal Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

"Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> I wasn't referring to the sliding behaviour of the cars. I agree that at > the limit, and on the ground, you get this dancing on ice feel. So, the GT3 > cars are fine as long as you have all four wheels on the ground. However, > as soon as you crest a hump at speed, things go to hell. Instead of a > natural jump, like you get in GPL, RallyMasters and even NFS-Porsche, you > get this absolutely bizarre instant wheelie. I've had a Celica rally car > stand right up on its tail on the Smoky Mountain circuit at the jump after > the S/F, despite purposely hammering the brakes just before the crest. > Experience from real-world driving and hours of GPL and RallyMasters > dictates that the car should certainly not rotate backwards, and especially > not until the thing is vertical! I think it's a bizarre bug with the > downforce.

I've seen that, and I agree on your diagnosis. I also think this is what causes the very coool multi-million mph-thing. :) -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 FJ�SE!

[email hidden] (Ruud van Gaal) writes: > Hehe, cool. Perhaps they saw too many videos where F1 cars would fly > backwards. Perhaps they had an equation wrong (one negative sign can > really screw everything up). Ruud, it looks more like downforce is calculated without regard to the car's, uh, aspect (good word? angle of attack? you know what I mean?). -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 "a poster is a human being or the software equivalent"

On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:50:58 GMT, Gunnar Horrigmo <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>[email hidden] (Ruud van Gaal) writes: > >> Hehe, cool. Perhaps they saw too many videos where F1 cars would fly >> backwards. Perhaps they had an equation wrong (one negative sign can >> really screw everything up). > >Ruud, it looks more like downforce is calculated without regard to the >car's, uh, aspect (good word? angle of attack? you know what I mean?).

Yes, I know what you mean. Still, a big thing in aerodynamics seems to be the pitching of the car relative to the wind. As soon as you pitch too much, things are really beginning to look ugly and it might tip you over. Just like a rubber boat on the sea on a windy day. :) You would say then that GT3 might be right; as soon as you go too far, the problem worsens quickly. Ruud van Gaal Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

[email hidden] (Ruud van Gaal) writes:

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> On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:50:58 GMT, Gunnar Horrigmo <[email hidden]> > wrote: > >[email hidden] (Ruud van Gaal) writes: > > > >> Hehe, cool. Perhaps they saw too many videos where F1 cars would fly > >> backwards. Perhaps they had an equation wrong (one negative sign can > >> really screw everything up). > > > >Ruud, it looks more like downforce is calculated without regard to the > >car's, uh, aspect (good word? angle of attack? you know what I mean?). > > Yes, I know what you mean. Still, a big thing in aerodynamics seems to > be the pitching of the car relative to the wind. As soon as you pitch > too much, things are really beginning to look ugly and it might tip > you over. Just like a rubber boat on the sea on a windy day. :) > > You would say then that GT3 might be right; as soon as you go too far, > the problem worsens quickly.

I don't think it is. :) there's a trick you can perform in GT3. basically you'll need a really powerfure car with lots of downforce, a stiff, low rideheight rear, and a very soft front with a high ridehight (or something along those lines anyway). in such a car it's reportedly possible to perform a wheelie, and end with the car standing uprigt on its tail going at several million miles per hour. there are even a few screenshot of this happening here: http://www.gt3.racesim.net/glitches.html I think this fits very well with the assumption that downforce is calculated from speed alone, disregarding pitch, while it is applied along the car's down vector. Gunnar, who really doesn't know the proper lingo for these things. -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 myk, trygg og god.

Ruud van Gaal <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Yes, I know what you mean. Still, a big thing in aerodynamics seems to > be the pitching of the car relative to the wind. As soon as you pitch > too much, things are really beginning to look ugly and it might tip > you over. Just like a rubber boat on the sea on a windy day. :) > > You would say then that GT3 might be right; as soon as you go too far, > the problem worsens quickly.

Ask Mercedes... <eg> Jonny

On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Jonny Hodgson wrote:

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> > Got a new PS2 today with the Logitech FF wheel. GT3 is a joke. The cars just > > slide around like crazy as if you are driving on ice. My copy of F1 2001 is > Apparently, this is exactly what it feels like if you model > the tyres realistically. You need mu (friction) values > around 2.0 to make it "feel" right; witness also the 'realistic' > tyres in GT2.

Sorry to be rude but I don't believe it. Hard Drivin' and Race Drivin' (Atari arcade games from c.1990) have great FF feel. They use tire data that is similar to the Corvette tires of the day (I know, since we supplied it!). There is a circle painted on a skidpad hidden in the game, and the car circulates at just about 1 g at the limit (plowing slightly until you lift off the throttle, then it starts to spin out). -- Doug Milliken

Jonny Hodgson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:U%jD7.23856$[email hidden]... > > Ruud van Gaal <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]...

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> > > Yes, I know what you mean. Still, a big thing in aerodynamics seems to > > be the pitching of the car relative to the wind. As soon as you pitch > > too much, things are really beginning to look ugly and it might tip > > you over. Just like a rubber boat on the sea on a windy day. :) > > > > You would say then that GT3 might be right; as soon as you go too far, > > the problem worsens quickly. > > Ask Mercedes... <eg> > > Jonny >

OK, a flat-bottomed LeMans car doing 320kph I can see, but not a Celica Rally car cresting a jump at 200... Stephen

On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:10:10 GMT, Gunnar Horrigmo <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>[email hidden] (Ruud van Gaal) writes: >> On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:50:58 GMT, Gunnar Horrigmo <[email hidden]> >> wrote: >> >[email hidden] (Ruud van Gaal) writes: >> > >> >> Hehe, cool. Perhaps they saw too many videos where F1 cars would fly >> >> backwards. Perhaps they had an equation wrong (one negative sign can >> >> really screw everything up). >> > >> >Ruud, it looks more like downforce is calculated without regard to the >> >car's, uh, aspect (good word? angle of attack? you know what I mean?). >> >> Yes, I know what you mean. Still, a big thing in aerodynamics seems to >> be the pitching of the car relative to the wind. As soon as you pitch >> too much, things are really beginning to look ugly and it might tip >> you over. Just like a rubber boat on the sea on a windy day. :) >> >> You would say then that GT3 might be right; as soon as you go too far, >> the problem worsens quickly. > >I don't think it is. :)

... >there are even a few screenshot of this happening here: >http://www.gt3.racesim.net/glitches.html Hehe, that does NOT seem right no. ;-) Ruud van Gaal Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/