GPL Engines

Howdy, Just curious. Somebody wrote an engine swapper utility for GPL awhile back. Anyone know how this works? What I'm wondering is, does anyone know how to access the different engines' torque curves (I figure the other of the program would know, are you here)? If so, perhaps the community would be interested in an engine simulator for Grand Prix Legends in the future that would let you manipulate heads, camshafts, compression, exhaust and intake piping, etc... Any thoughts? Thanks, Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

http://www.manau.force9.co.uk/ GEM+ http://eaglewoman.simracing.dk/gpl/index.htm GRE ( torque curves ) info setup I have those link on my linkpage : http://www.bonghead.org/racing/gplstart/index.html Stefan Zscharnack "J. Todd Wasson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Howdy, > > Just curious. Somebody wrote an engine swapper utility for GPL awhileback. > Anyone know how this works? What I'm wondering is, does anyone know howto > access the different engines' torque curves (I figure the other of theprogram > would know, are you here)? If so, perhaps the community would beinterested in > an engine simulator for Grand Prix Legends in the future that would letyou > manipulate heads, camshafts, compression, exhaust and intake piping,etc...

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> Any thoughts? > > > Thanks, > > > Todd Wasson > --- > Performance Simulations > Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction > Software > http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

J. Todd Wasson <[email hidden]> wrote on 06 Nov 2001: <snip> > If so, perhaps > the community would be interested in an engine simulator for Grand > Prix Legends in the future that would let you manipulate heads, > camshafts, compression, exhaust and intake piping, etc... Any > thoughts? If you do this, *please* include some way that people can tell if others are running modded cars - the original Engine Swapper caused enough problems in this department until things settled down. Otherwise we really could see large-scale cheating. (Not that I wanted to bring this up again, but this was the real reason I'd have liked to have seen an open-source VROC [yes, I know, and accept, that this just isn't going to happen], to accommodate future developments without waiting months for an official new version.) -- Sceptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep insights can be winnowed from deep nonsense -- Carl Sagan The GPL Scrapyard returns (slowly): http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com

On 06 Nov 2001 08:44:05 GMT, [email hidden] (J. Todd Wasson) wrote: > Howdy, > > Just curious. Somebody wrote an engine swapper utility for GPL awhile back. >Anyone know how this works? What I'm wondering is, does anyone know how to >access the different engines' torque curves (I figure the other of the program >would know, are you here)? Interesting, certainly. I got a Ferrari 312 torque curve from someone recently; it was simulated with 'Engine Analyzer 3'. I don't know whether the specs of the engine came with the product though. If you get your hands on the torque curves, I'd certainly would also like to know; still cloning a Ferrari from GPL (still need good rollcenter values for such a car). Ruud van Gaal Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

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>http://www.manau.force9.co.uk/ GEM+ >http://eaglewoman.simracing.dk/gpl/index.htm GRE ( torque curves ) info >setup > >I have those link on my linkpage : >http://www.bonghead.org/racing/gplstart/index.html > >Stefan Zscharnack >

Thanks, Stefan. Perhaps I can drop the author an email now :0) Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

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>Interesting, certainly. I got a Ferrari 312 torque curve from someone >recently; it was simulated with 'Engine Analyzer 3'. I don't know >whether the specs of the engine came with the product though. > >If you get your hands on the torque curves, I'd certainly would also >like to know; still cloning a Ferrari from GPL (still need good >rollcenter values for such a car). >

I'm basically considering writing a similar program to Engine Analyzer 3. My QuickEngine Builder is a little too simplified for my tastes (an early experiment from many years ago that worked surpisingly well), but could be great with some additions and a new modelling approach. I'll let you know if I get access to the stuff. Will have to write the author of the engine swapper utility for info. If you can pull out the Ferrari model with its suspension system and give me some specs on it, I should be able to give you a decent roll center position... Of course, the physics roll center may not match up to the graphics though... Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

Someone (I won't say who) already did engine "tuning". It is a question of reverse engineering. The first thing *I* would do would be to use enginechanger to change all the engines, and then compare that gpl.exe with the original. The changes would be where the engine data is situated, so you can start there by tampering with the different bytes... You can adjust the number of cylinders, the combustion volume, and a number of other things. It was very nice to see a F3 car with 140 bhp revving to 10k instead of the truck like 5000 of GPL. I think I have the replay of it somewhere... The trouble with GPL is that it performs no checksum checks when allowing clients to connect to the server. So, an engine tuner would compromise the game and league integrity, UNLESS the new version of VROC performs some kind of integrity checking. Hmmm, maybe I should contact the people currently programming it... I have a few ideas how it can be done. ---Asgeir--- "J. Todd Wasson" wrote:

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> Howdy, > > Just curious. Somebody wrote an engine swapper utility for GPL awhile back. > Anyone know how this works? What I'm wondering is, does anyone know how to > access the different engines' torque curves (I figure the other of the program > would know, are you here)? If so, perhaps the community would be interested in > an engine simulator for Grand Prix Legends in the future that would let you > manipulate heads, camshafts, compression, exhaust and intake piping, etc... > Any thoughts? > > > Thanks, > > Todd Wasson > --- > Performance Simulations > Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction > Software > http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

Asgeir Nesoen <[email hidden]> writes: > It was very nice to see a F3 car with 140 bhp revving to 10k instead > of the truck like 5000 of GPL. I think I have the replay of it > somewhere... Is 140 bhp right? During my track day in June, I talked to a guy with a 1966-1967 Brabham F3 ( http://www.ifi.uio.no/~asbjxrn/rudskogen-20010623/ ). According to him they had tuned it to 120 hp at the most during the lifetime of the car, which he thought was quite a bit considering it used the same engine as Ford Anglia. -- -asbjxrn

On 06 Nov 2001 22:30:48 GMT, [email hidden] (J. Todd Wasson) wrote:

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>>Interesting, certainly. I got a Ferrari 312 torque curve from someone >>recently; it was simulated with 'Engine Analyzer 3'. I don't know >>whether the specs of the engine came with the product though. >> >>If you get your hands on the torque curves, I'd certainly would also >>like to know; still cloning a Ferrari from GPL (still need good >>rollcenter values for such a car). >> > > I'm basically considering writing a similar program to Engine Analyzer 3. My >QuickEngine Builder is a little too simplified for my tastes (an early >experiment from many years ago that worked surpisingly well), but could be >great with some additions and a new modelling approach.

Cool, hope it works out. > I'll let you know if I get access to the stuff. Will have to write the >author of the engine swapper utility for info. If you can pull out the Ferrari >model with its suspension system and give me some specs on it, I should be able >to give you a decent roll center position... Of course, the physics roll >center may not match up to the graphics though... The suspension seems to move quite a bit, but I always thought rollcenters didn't vary THAT much (at least GPL uses static ones). I'll see what I can do. I'm trying to port the GPLEA Eagle (improved my 3DO loader quite a bit), but GPL uses BSP trees merged with LOD models, and I think even adds collision planes/trees inside the 3DO, so it's a bit of a mess considering today's rendering systems. Converting that to a straight-on linear model is very inefficient and my optimizer will have to thoroughly dig through the mess not to make the car impossible to use (slow to render). I did have some good results with a couple of 3do's; just missing a lot of the images (must convert them all from MIP to BMP or TGA), and the polygons don't seem to care about culling; I've got the wheels but the front and back tire walls were oriented in the same world direction; meaning always one of them is culled (unless I disable culling, but well, that doesn't make things faster). I created a flip-face for that, but it turned out that the rim of the tire rubber was connected in the same subtree and that was flipped in the opposite direction again! So I must even flip per polygon, which is a terrible nuisance. :( (and more coding) I'll have to ask GPLEA for some info on the precise structure of the Eagle; lots of .3do's and I'm not clear yet on how it all fits together. Perhaps someone has info on the suspension though? Ruud van Gaal Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

What about those of us using the modified GPL.exe to use the ACT Labs Shifter? Would we then not be able to use VROC with the shifter? SLG Asgeir Nesoen <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Someone (I won't say who) already did engine "tuning". It is a question of reverse >engineering. The first thing *I* would do would be to use enginechanger to change >all the engines, and then compare that gpl.exe with the original. The changes would >be where the engine data is situated, so you can start there by tampering with the >different bytes... You can adjust the number of cylinders, the combustion volume, >and a number of other things. > >It was very nice to see a F3 car with 140 bhp revving to 10k instead of the truck >like 5000 of GPL. I think I have the replay of it somewhere... > >The trouble with GPL is that it performs no checksum checks when allowing clients >to connect to the server. So, an engine tuner would compromise the game and league >integrity, UNLESS the new version of VROC performs some kind of integrity checking. >Hmmm, maybe I should contact the people currently programming it... I have a few >ideas how it can be done. > >---Asgeir--- > >"J. Todd Wasson" wrote: > >> Howdy, >> >> Just curious. Somebody wrote an engine swapper utility for GPL awhile back. >> Anyone know how this works? What I'm wondering is, does anyone know how to >> access the different engines' torque curves (I figure the other of the program >> would know, are you here)? If so, perhaps the community would be interested in >> an engine simulator for Grand Prix Legends in the future that would let you >> manipulate heads, camshafts, compression, exhaust and intake piping, etc... >> Any thoughts? >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Todd Wasson >> --- >> Performance Simulations >> Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction >> Software >> http://PerformanceSimulations.Com >

(All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers)

<snip on 3d graphics> Geeze, Ruud! I'm still trying to get your DOF files to load more than one object, and JUST the vertices and indices for display! lol Someone did send code for loading .3ds, .ace, and .obj files. Just in case you haven't seen it yet, check here: http://www.gametutorials.com/Tutorials/Advanced/OpenGL_Pg3.htm Although by the sounds of what you just attempted to explain to me (whoosh, over my head), you probably could write this stuff yourself in about 5 minutes :0) >Perhaps someone has info on the suspension though? > Just had an idea. If you want, send me a zoomed in shot from the front and rear (close to parallel projection that way) that shows the front and rear suspension. I'll see what I can do :0) Also, if you have the track width, that would help scale things a bit. I might be able to give an idea how much the rc might be moving (or not moving.) Of course, if someone pops in here with some numbers, nevermind... :0) Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

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>Someone (I won't say who) already did engine "tuning". It is a question of >reverse >engineering. The first thing *I* would do would be to use enginechanger to >change >all the engines, and then compare that gpl.exe with the original. The changes >would >be where the engine data is situated, so you can start there by tampering >with the >different bytes... You can adjust the number of cylinders, the combustion >volume, >and a number of other things. >

Good idea. I suspect that the engine torque curves are fixed, rather than generated from the chamber volume and all of that, but still, that's the place to start. What I was hoping is that these fixed curves could be rewritten by the GPLEngine Designer (or whatever) using physical engine data like you just described. I know I can do the simulation with the physical stuff reasonably well, but first I'd need to know how to access and change those parts of GPL.exe as you pointed out. I'll try your suggestion when I get some time, thanks.

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>The trouble with GPL is that it performs no checksum checks when allowing >clients >to connect to the server. So, an engine tuner would compromise the game and >league >integrity, UNLESS the new version of VROC performs some kind of integrity >checking. >Hmmm, maybe I should contact the people currently programming it... I have a >few >ideas how it can be done. >

I have no idea how client/server stuff works, but if you wanted to contact them, go for it. It might be best to wait until (if) I can find and extract the torque curves. If the author of the engine swapper utility would help, that would... well... help! :0) I surely wouldn't want to mess up anybody's regular racing stuff though or assist anybody in attaining "creative victories" ;-), so I'd be open to any sort of security stuff that was necessary. Perhaps a few bytes could be written somewhere in gpl.exe by GPLEngine Designer if it had been used to modify any engines, which would immediately show up in a checksum. Can a checksum even be run through a server this way? If so, gpl.exe's that had been modified by the engine swapper utility wouldn't pass either. That'd be great for the people that want to race "pure" GPL. I'm just kicking the idea around right now though. Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

On 08 Nov 2001 00:23:59 GMT, [email hidden] (J. Todd Wasson) wrote:

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> <snip on 3d graphics> > > Geeze, Ruud! I'm still trying to get your DOF files to load more than one >object, and JUST the vertices and indices for display! lol > Someone did send >code for loading .3ds, .ace, and .obj files. Just in case you haven't seen it >yet, check here: > >http://www.gametutorials.com/Tutorials/Advanced/OpenGL_Pg3.htm

Ah, interesting. Never seen that one before. > Although by the sounds of what you just attempted to explain to me (whoosh, >over my head), you probably could write this stuff yourself in about 5 minutes >:0) Hehe, probably not. It took quite some time to get a GPL track renderer, sort of. The 3DO format has been described in quite some detail by Phil Flack. The problem is turning a rendering tree back into some linear bunch of vertices. I just 'render' away into triangle bursts and just see what happens though. :) >>Perhaps someone has info on the suspension though? > > Just had an idea. If you want, send me a zoomed in shot from the front and >rear (close to parallel projection that way) that shows the front and rear >suspension. I'll spend some time somewhere in the next couple of weeks on trying to figure out the Eagle models, so I can find the suspension (there was a suspension shot on the GPLEA page, but not entirely from the front I think). > I'll see what I can do :0) Also, if you have the track width, >that would help scale things a bit. The Eagle has a wheelbase of 245.1cm, and track width of 152.4cm both at the front and the rear. Straight from the GPL info screen. :) > I might be able to give an idea how much >the rc might be moving (or not moving.) Of course, if someone pops in here >with some numbers, nevermind... :0) The guys from Engine Analyzer also did a Roll Center Calculator. Might be something for your efforts too... I'll see if I can find the suspension model in the jungle of 3do's. Ruud van Gaal Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

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>> Although by the sounds of what you just attempted to explain to me >(whoosh, >>over my head), you probably could write this stuff yourself in about 5 >minutes >>:0) > >Hehe, probably not. It took quite some time to get a GPL track >renderer, sort of. The 3DO format has been described in quite some >detail by Phil Flack. The problem is turning a rendering tree back >into some linear bunch of vertices. I just 'render' away into triangle >bursts and just see what happens though. :)

Sounds a little like what I've been trying to do with your DOF's.... I get some funny looking cars sometimes :0)

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>>>Perhaps someone has info on the suspension though? >> >> Just had an idea. If you want, send me a zoomed in shot from the front >and >>rear (close to parallel projection that way) that shows the front and rear >>suspension. > >I'll spend some time somewhere in the next couple of weeks on trying >to figure out the Eagle models, so I can find the suspension (there >was a suspension shot on the GPLEA page, but not entirely from the >front I think). >> I might be able to give an idea how much >>the rc might be moving (or not moving.) Of course, if someone pops in here >>with some numbers, nevermind... :0) > >The guys from Engine Analyzer also did a Roll Center Calculator. Might >be something for your efforts too... >I'll see if I can find the suspension model in the jungle of 3do's. > >

If/when you get the model working, send me a pic. I've got 1/2 a roll center calculator running (made it to develop the suspension model.) It'll do just fine for getting the rc for the cars though. Actually, I could use my current engine to make a roll center calculator right now :0) Wonder if it'd be worth anything? It's too bad my "competition" <tounge in cheek> doesn't send me sales figures :0) Wish they did, it'd make project decisions quite a bit easier! I'll be looking forward to the suspension pics. If you can get a rear shot too, that'd be good. Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com