A side effect

I don't know if you guys realize it, but a side effect to this battle of word over who's to blame for online crashes is that newbies might very well not feel welcomed in the online community any more. Well not even newbies but more like less experienced drivers such as myself. In this battle people are trying to put blame on who crashes and therefore destroying online racing. Well, I was cautious joining pickup races on vroc, and now I will most definitely not be racing off my league servers. The message you are sending, wither you blame hotlappers or slow drivers, is that it is not tolerated to crash. I will not go into wether hotlappers do crash or not, as I havn�t raced with them. But I know I do sometimes, and that is obviously not wanted. I don't want to destroy online racing for everybody else! I didn't think I did when I missed a braking point and accidently took out someone else. Hey on the horse again and on with it. Apparantly not. Apparantly I am a pest to the online racing comunity along the lines of what Tom P. thinks Aliens is. Appologies to those few I have ever taken off, or caused to slow down during a race. Not many, since I am fairly new to vroc. It won't happen again outside of the servers I know from my league. Not untill I too have a sub -20 Rank and can drive consistently at those times without crashing a single time in 100 laps. Oh wait, would that then make me an Alien/Hotlapper and not wanted either? Joakim, exVroc Racer

On Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:49:05 -0000, "Joakim Lauridsen" <[email hidden]> wrote: <snip> >Apparantly I am a pest to the online racing comunity along the lines of what >Tom P. thinks Aliens is. Now this is stupid. Everybody makes mistakes sometimes and everybody crashes sometimes. Happens in real life too, ever watched Nascar or F1? Tom stated that 'aliens' are -worse- drivers than slower drivers. Where did you draw the conclusion that 'newbies' are not welcome and that it's unforgivable if you take someone else out during a crash? The only rule is to use your head during a race. Don't try to go from 20th place to 1st place at the start, never overtake someone in the chicane at Monaco, and keep more distance than usual because of warping... it's really simple actually. Andre >Joakim, exVroc Racer

Joakim Lauridsen <[email hidden]> wrote on 06 Nov 2001: <snip> > I was cautious joining pickup races on vroc, and now I will most > definitely not be racing off my league servers. The message you are > sending, wither you blame hotlappers or slow drivers, is that it is > not tolerated to crash.<snip> Sorry, but this is just silly. I suspect you might have been caught up in a few Monza T1 pile-ups. When this happens, sooner or later you'll get blamed, even if you were punted across the track by somebody else. Then people will complain at you. Believe me, this happens to *everybody*, and peopole won't bear a grudge in your next race (well, not unless you do it every time!) If you crash, unless it's certainly the other driver's fault, send out a "SRY" message. 95% of the time you'll get a "NP" in return, and all will be well. And 4.9% of the time the other driver won't answer, but only because he hasn't got the time to type. Only 0.1% of the time will the other driver be nasty to you in return. Generally, crashes are the fault of the driver following. If you slow for a corner, and Driver X behind you rams you up the back because he's not concentrating, it's X's fault, *not* yours. You'll only get a bad reputation if you do really stupid things - eg sit stationary in the middle of the track, block lapping drivers for 10 laps, jump the start - on a regular basis. Oh, or drive round the wrong way, though a Mr Indigo has the monopoly on that one (he turned up again the other week). Really, I think you're worrying too much. Everyone moans in VROC, and yes, there are lots of crashes. But the sheer uncertainty compared to league or AI racing is what gives a pickup race its raw excitement. Bluntly, stop worrying and start racing :-) -- Sceptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep insights can be winnowed from deep nonsense -- Carl Sagan The GPL Scrapyard returns (slowly): http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com

"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > <snip> > >Apparantly I am a pest to the online racing comunity along the lines ofwhat

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> >Tom P. thinks Aliens is. > > Now this is stupid. > > Everybody makes mistakes sometimes and everybody crashes sometimes. > Happens in real life too, ever watched Nascar or F1? > > Tom stated that 'aliens' are -worse- drivers than slower drivers. > Where did you draw the conclusion that 'newbies' are not welcome and > that it's unforgivable if you take someone else out during a crash?

I didn't actually, because that is not what I know to be true. I just think the discussion came to a level were one could actually come to believe that if you cannot stay on track and out of the way, you are ruining races. I may have overreacted to a post from one hotlapper( I cannot remember who, and there are to many to find it again) that slow drivers were the actual causes of most crashes. It maybe true, and I can understand that argument from one protecting himself from the attacks of the sort he was under, and didn't take it in any way as hit one anybody, but still thinks the debate sends and unfriendly message to people of the likes of me, who is not in the negative rankwise. It may not be true, but it is easy to think that if people who crash in the process of being quick are unwanted, then people who crash in the process of learning are even more unwanted. Maybe it is just me over analyzing , but still I have even more doubts now about joining vroc races than I had before, since i don't wanna be at the receiving end of the next Tom P. who thinks online racing is dying because of newbies crashing instead of reading books about pitstop strategy ;o) To sum it up. I know pretty much that it is not the truth that newbies are unwanted, but it could still be percieved that way. Joakim

As far as my online experience goes with Nascar 3, newbies are eagerly welcomed, as long as they don't misinterpret "NASCAR" as being some sort of high speed demolition derby. The people who ruin races are not the ones that are new to it but the ones who don't wish to learn or contribute. cha-ching! 3� Joakim Lauridsen wrote:

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> I don't know if you guys realize it, but a side effect to this battle of > word over who's to blame for online crashes is that newbies might very well > not feel welcomed in the online community any more. Well not even newbies > but more like less experienced drivers such as myself. In this battle people > are trying to put blame on who crashes and therefore destroying online > racing. Well, I was cautious joining pickup races on vroc, and now I will > most definitely not be racing off my league servers. The message you are > sending, wither you blame hotlappers or slow drivers, is that it is not > tolerated to crash. I will not go into wether hotlappers do crash or not, as > I havn�t raced with them. But I know I do sometimes, and that is obviously > not wanted. I don't want to destroy online racing for everybody else! I > didn't think I did when I missed a braking point and accidently took out > someone else. Hey on the horse again and on with it. Apparantly not. > Apparantly I am a pest to the online racing comunity along the lines of what > Tom P. thinks Aliens is. > > Appologies to those few I have ever taken off, or caused to slow down during > a race. Not many, since I am fairly new to vroc. It won't happen again > outside of the servers I know from my league. Not untill I too have a > sub -20 Rank and can drive consistently at those times without crashing a > single time in 100 laps. Oh wait, would that then make me an Alien/Hotlapper > and not wanted either? > > Joakim, exVroc Racer

> Sorry, but this is just silly Now I can't comment on VROC because I'm not a GPL player myself, but as far as online racing in general goes for someone new to it its not silly at all. For years I had no desire to even try online racing because it "appeared" to be almost ruthless and/or cut throat. I had the fear of causing a crash and being the target of what I had seen on countless forums, newsgroups, and bulletin boards. It just didn't seem worth it IMO. To this day I almost never jump into a pickup race because I get so sick of the crap going on in them, even if I'm not the target and just watching it flash across the screen. > If you crash, unless it's certainly the other driver's fault, send out > a "SRY" message. 95% of the time you'll get a "NP" in return, and all > will be well. And 4.9% of the time the other driver won't answer, but > only because he hasn't got the time to type. Only 0.1% of the time will > the other driver be nasty to you in return. After finally giving online racing a go I find the above to be very true. Those percentages given may vary based on the title and the "crowd" that plays them. Actually my personal best experience came with a few pick races in F1 2000 Champ Season and the worst have been in DTR. Currently I have a group of about 10-15 guys that a race with and nobody gets mad at anyone. Sure we may yell and scream at the CRT when something happens, but we never flame anyone. And that's what makes online racing so much fun, but for a newbie on the outside looking in it can be down right scary reading all the crap that gets posted. MadDAWG

Hi Joakim. I've recently bought GPL, and quite fancy giving a race a stab online. As you mention though, the 'feeling' I get from reading websites and this newsgroup is 'don't do it until you can hotlap for hours straight'. I'll be the first to admit I'm crap. I've got a DSL box - maybe we should start a newbies racing host? Where it is 'just for a laugh'. Maybe we could even have a 'newbies league' where crashings ok, but you get points deducted... Thats sort of thing... You interested? Dan "Joakim Lauridsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9s8t8v$116ulb$[email hidden]... > I don't know if you guys realize it, but a side effect to this battle of > word over who's to blame for online crashes is that newbies might verywell > not feel welcomed in the online community any more. Well not even newbies > but more like less experienced drivers such as myself. In this battlepeople > are trying to put blame on who crashes and therefore destroying online > racing. Well, I was cautious joining pickup races on vroc, and now I will > most definitely not be racing off my league servers. The message you are > sending, wither you blame hotlappers or slow drivers, is that it is not > tolerated to crash. I will not go into wether hotlappers do crash or not,as > I havn�t raced with them. But I know I do sometimes, and that is obviously > not wanted. I don't want to destroy online racing for everybody else! I > didn't think I did when I missed a braking point and accidently took out > someone else. Hey on the horse again and on with it. Apparantly not. > Apparantly I am a pest to the online racing comunity along the lines ofwhat > Tom P. thinks Aliens is. > > Appologies to those few I have ever taken off, or caused to slow downduring > a race. Not many, since I am fairly new to vroc. It won't happen again > outside of the servers I know from my league. Not untill I too have a > sub -20 Rank and can drive consistently at those times without crashing a > single time in 100 laps. Oh wait, would that then make me anAlien/Hotlapper

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> and not wanted either? > > Joakim, exVroc Racer > > > >

Hi guys, Don't let a few (a very minor few I may add) of the so-called "faster" guys put you off with comments about slow drivers cause accidents etc... All of the decent drivers on VROC welcome ALL newcomers to GPL & VROC, regardless of individual speed and/or experience.. It often amuses me too how a few (once again, a minor few) of the so-called VROC experts tend to look down on anyone who can not obtain sub 28 laps at Monza, or have not got their name up in lights on GPLrank, but they tend to forget that they were once in that same boat. Regarding GPLrank, there are many good to excellent drivers in GPL that have not even bothered putting in a GPLrank time, not because they couldn't get a negative score, but simply because hotlapping and bragging rights do not interest them. Don't be put off with comments and snide remarks from the minority few, as all of the decent drivers that race on VROC (and that is 99% of them) will welcome all newcomers to VROC with open arms. If any newcomer to GPL & VROC feels they are being victimized or abused for being slow etc, take their names and post their comments here on RAS for all to see. Cheers, Ron Ayton GPLrank (not interested) Dan Spam <[email hidden]> wrote in article <3be81e89$0$36476$[email hidden]>...

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> Hi Joakim. I've recently bought GPL, and quite fancy giving a race a stab > online. > As you mention though, the 'feeling' I get from reading websites and this > newsgroup is 'don't do it until you can hotlap for hours straight'. > > I'll be the first to admit I'm crap. I've got a DSL box - maybe we should > start a newbies racing host? > Where it is 'just for a laugh'. > > Maybe we could even have a 'newbies league' where crashings ok, but you

get

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> points deducted... > > Thats sort of thing... You interested? > > Dan > "Joakim Lauridsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9s8t8v$116ulb$[email hidden]... > > I don't know if you guys realize it, but a side effect to this battle

of > > word over who's to blame for online crashes is that newbies might very > well > > not feel welcomed in the online community any more. Well not evennewbies > > but more like less experienced drivers such as myself. In this battle > people > > are trying to put blame on who crashes and therefore destroying online > > racing. Well, I was cautious joining pickup races on vroc, and now Iwill > > most definitely not be racing off my league servers. The message youare > > sending, wither you blame hotlappers or slow drivers, is that it is not > > tolerated to crash. I will not go into wether hotlappers do crash ornot, > as > > I havn�t raced with them. But I know I do sometimes, and that isobviously > > not wanted. I don't want to destroy online racing for everybody else! I > > didn't think I did when I missed a braking point and accidently tookout

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> > someone else. Hey on the horse again and on with it. Apparantly not. > > Apparantly I am a pest to the online racing comunity along the lines of > what > > Tom P. thinks Aliens is. > > > > Appologies to those few I have ever taken off, or caused to slow down > during > > a race. Not many, since I am fairly new to vroc. It won't happen again > > outside of the servers I know from my league. Not untill I too have a > > sub -20 Rank and can drive consistently at those times without crashing

a

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> > single time in 100 laps. Oh wait, would that then make me an > Alien/Hotlapper > > and not wanted either? > > > > Joakim, exVroc Racer > > > > > > > > > > >

Ron Ayton wrote:

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> > Hi guys, > > Don't let a few (a very minor few I may add) of the so-called "faster" guys > put you off with comments about slow drivers cause accidents etc... > All of the decent drivers on VROC welcome ALL newcomers to GPL & VROC, > regardless of individual speed and/or experience.. > It often amuses me too how a few (once again, a minor few) of the so-called > VROC experts tend to look down on anyone who can not obtain sub 28 laps at > Monza, or have not got their name up in lights on GPLrank, but they tend > to forget that they were once in that same boat. > > Regarding GPLrank, there are many good to excellent drivers in GPL that > have not even bothered putting in a GPLrank time, not because they couldn't > get a negative score, but simply because hotlapping and bragging rights do > not interest them. > > Don't be put off with comments and snide remarks from the minority few, as > all of the decent drivers that race on VROC (and that is 99% of them) will > welcome all newcomers to VROC with open arms. > If any newcomer to GPL & VROC feels they are being victimized or abused for > being slow etc, take their names and post their comments here on RAS for > all to see.

Hear hear, well said and all that I still remember my first online race with N2 back on TEN, scared as hell to make a mistake and take someone out......and of course I did, but not in my first race, I waited until the 2nd, apologized to the guy and let him know I was new to all this and that I forgot that humans drive differently than AI cars do He was really cool about it all, just pickup racing he said, don't worry about it, then he asked if I wanted to join him for another race, we were racing Dega of course :-), and for the next couple of hours he taught he most of what little I know about racing at Dega, even got me into a couple of passworded races to show me what a clean race at Dega could be like I guess what I'm trying to say is that your attitude when racing online as a newbie will have a big impact on how people react to your mistakes, and you *will* make mistakes, everyone does Sure you'll meet the odd SOB of thinks he's all that and won't accept an honest apology, but more often than not, people will accept an apology and move on, just don't make the same mistake on L1 in T1 at Monza several races in a row with the same people, that won't go down too well :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com http://www.teammirage.com "A woman is an occasional pleasure but a cigar is always a smoke" --Groucho Marx--

MadDAWG <[email hidden]> wrote on 06 Nov 2001: >> Sorry, but this is just silly > > Now I can't comment on VROC because I'm not a GPL player myself, > but as far as online racing in general goes for someone new to it > its not silly at all.<snip> That's the point. GPL online racing with VROC really *is* different to other online pickup races - there really *is* more respect and good humour between the drivers. I wouldn't have said what I did in regard to "online racing in general" - regrettably, you're right about that. VROC, though, is a bit of a special case. > Sure we may yell and > scream at the CRT when something happens, but we never flame > anyone. And that's what makes online racing so much fun, but for a > newbie on the outside looking in it can be down right scary reading > all the crap that gets posted. A fair point, though, as I mentioned abouve, GPL/VROC is (in general - of course there is the occasional exception) much more pleasant in this regard than other games. Believe me, I was petrified when I entered my first VROC race! -- Sceptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep insights can be winnowed from deep nonsense -- Carl Sagan The GPL Scrapyard returns (slowly): http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com

Ron Ayton <[email hidden]> wrote on 06 Nov 2001: > Don't let a few (a very minor few I may add) of the so-called > "faster" guys put you off with comments about slow drivers cause > accidents etc...<snip> Quite right. To be honest, I tend to think that faster drivers cause more accidents. Reason? Because one or two of them tend to expect everyone else in the field to have their standard of reactions, forethought etc. Spatial awareness is a vital skill for a racing driver, and that includes taking account of competitors of varying speed, ability etc. > Regarding GPLrank, there are many good to excellent drivers in GPL > that have not even bothered putting in a GPLrank time, not because > they couldn't get a negative score, but simply because hotlapping > and bragging rights do not interest them. Again, true. But I (quite strongly) dispute the idea that being proud of a GPLRank, whether it be -80 or +480, is in itself a bad thing. After all, even Sunday-afternoon athletes are pleased when they better their PB. If you are attracted by the idea of GPLRank, then enter your score; if not, don't. Neither makes you a good or bad driver in itself. (Actually, the best reason for using GPLRank is as a backup of your player.ini file!) > Don't be put off with comments and snide remarks from the minority > few, as all of the decent drivers that race on VROC (and that is > 99% of them) will welcome all newcomers to VROC with open arms. There do seem to be quite a few newcomers in the last few weeks and months, and that's great. A 20-car field is so much more exciting than a 5-car one. > If any newcomer to GPL & VROC feels they are being victimized or > abused for being slow etc, take their names and post their > comments here on RAS for all to see. Here's a (silly) idea. Everyone who starts GPL sends off a replay of their first-ever lap, crashes and all. This is not made public, *except* if they get too big for their boots once they're fast. In that case, every single GPL site in the world is sent that replay of their first lap to put up on their site. Sort of "name and shame" :-) -- Sceptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep insights can be winnowed from deep nonsense -- Carl Sagan The GPL Scrapyard returns (slowly): http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com

Well said Ron. Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. "Ron Ayton" wrote... > <snip>

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> >Maybe it is just me over analyzing , but still I have even more doubts now >about joining vroc races than I had before, since i don't wanna be at the >receiving end of the next Tom P. who thinks online racing is dying because >of newbies crashing instead of reading books about pitstop strategy ;o) > >To sum it up. I know pretty much that it is not the truth that newbies are >unwanted, but it could still be percieved that way. > >Joakim

Racing at VROC will only die when people stop using it because noone else is racing. If newcomers cannot be encouraged to try it out and have a go, then it definitely will die. I can see your point about how you could perceive it that way. This has NOT been a useful discussion for the community as a whole as Tom keeps stating, it has only caused anger and hostility IMO. Rafe Mc

"Ron Ayton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:01c1670c$d7656720$0100007f@ronayton... > Hi guys, > > Don't let a few (a very minor few I may add) of the so-called "faster"guys > put you off with comments about slow drivers cause accidents etc... > All of the decent drivers on VROC welcome ALL newcomers to GPL & VROC, > regardless of individual speed and/or experience.. > It often amuses me too how a few (once again, a minor few) of theso-called

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> VROC experts tend to look down on anyone who can not obtain sub 28 laps at > Monza, or have not got their name up in lights on GPLrank, but they tend > to forget that they were once in that same boat.[...] > Don't be put off with comments and snide remarks from the minority few, as > all of the decent drivers that race on VROC (and that is 99% of them) will > welcome all newcomers to VROC with open arms. > If any newcomer to GPL & VROC feels they are being victimized or abused

for > being slow etc, take their names and post their comments here on RAS for > all to see. Don't vorry about me, I know all this. (the exvroc thing, was just a statement. One I should probably have left out) I was just commenting that this is the signal that I feel is being put out, and hopefully this thread will send out a more appropriate one. Joakim

"Dan Spam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3be81e89$0$36476$[email hidden]...

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> Hi Joakim. I've recently bought GPL, and quite fancy giving a race a stab > online. > As you mention though, the 'feeling' I get from reading websites and this > newsgroup is 'don't do it until you can hotlap for hours straight'. > > I'll be the first to admit I'm crap. I've got a DSL box - maybe we should > start a newbies racing host? > Where it is 'just for a laugh'. > > Maybe we could even have a 'newbies league' where crashings ok, but you

get > points deducted... > > Thats sort of thing... You interested? Don't have the time along with my regular league. And I think there are a lot of leagues were there are room for newbies. Remember, when you start league racing, you quickly step out of the newbie shoes. You just have to find a place to start, where there are others at your own level. Then you will most likely progress hand in hand. And all newbies is not entirely good either. It's real nice to have some experienced guys to learn from, and maybe help you with setups etc. But a dedicated newbie server on vroc might be nice, if there isn't one? Joakim

> A fair point, though, as I mentioned abouve, GPL/VROC is (in general - > of course there is the occasional exception) much more pleasant in this > regard than other games. Believe me, I was petrified when I entered my > first VROC race! I was actually told once not to go online with GPL until I was much better than I currently was. I won't say who because in all honesty I do feel he was trying to warn/help me more than anything, but to someone not familiar with him his post would have most definitely come off as a 'go away little boy' type of thing. MadDAWG

MadDAWG <[email hidden]> wrote on 07 Nov 2001: > I was actually told once not to go online with GPL until I was much > better than I currently was.<snip> That's a shame, and I hope it was an isolated incident. As far as I'm concerned, I'd welcome anyone to VROC, provided they're not actually a danger to others. At Monza, say, a consistent 1:40 driver is a lot better than someone who does occasional 1:26s but takes everyone else out. -- Sceptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep insights can be winnowed from deep nonsense -- Carl Sagan The GPL Scrapyard returns (slowly): http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com

In article <9sb2qd$11mk0k$[email hidden]>, "Joakim Lauridsen" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Don't have the time along with my regular league. And I think there are a >lot of leagues were there are room for newbies. Remember, when you start >league racing, you quickly step out of the newbie shoes. You just have to >find a place to start, where there are others at your own level. Then you >will most likely progress hand in hand. >And all newbies is not entirely good either. It's real nice to have some >experienced guys to learn from, and maybe help you with setups etc. > >But a dedicated newbie server on vroc might be nice, if there isn't one?

I used to set up one of my servers for that purpose. Maybe I'll do it again... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (EldredP) writes: >>But a dedicated newbie server on vroc might be nice, if there isn't one? > >I used to set up one of my servers for that purpose. Maybe I'll do it >again... > Done. Although it's described as "Novices Welcome"... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.