GPL driving tips question(s)

I've looked at more than a few replays from the fast guys. A few observations, along with some questions... First - on many of the turns, the driver gets the car into a certain 'attitude', and it stays at that attitude until corner exit. How do you do that? When I take a turn, the car sort of 'oscillates' in the turn. Second - I've noticed that the better drivers can brake in a MUCH shorter distance than I can. Thus, they can go deeper into a corner. Is that related to brake balance? Most 'fast' setups I download have a balance of 51 or 52%. When I attempt to drive such a car, I spend more time sliding backward than going forward. Third - in the aforementioned short braking zone, there's no tire squeal. For me to brake light enough so the tires don't squeal, I'd have to brake about 5 carlengths earlier than I do now, which is about 3 carlengths earlier than THEY do. What's the secret? Fourth - As I stated before, the fast guys don't squeal the tires in the braking zone. But, they squeal in the turns. My replays are just the opposite - squealing in the braking zone, none in the turns. I can do it in the 'sweeper' - type turns(more time to react?), but not the normal ones. If my tires are making noise in the turns, it's usually because something has gone horribly wrong, and I'll shortly be doing some gardening. Tips? Thanks for ideas. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Maxx, I don't know if your post has helped Eldred, but it sure did me. I just set a new PB at Silverstone! <g> Many thanks! -- don ------------------------------------- BAPOM Alternative Program Covers for GPL http://www.trilon.com/bapom/ Maxx <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On 09 Dec 2001 02:11:35 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > > Just wanted to throw a couple of things in here, hopefully not a long > reply. <snip>

Great post! I've had the same general questions in my mind, just never thought about posting here. Be interesting to see the replies....well, the serious ones anyway :-) "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I've looked at more than a few replays from the fast guys. A fewobservations, > along with some questions... > > First - on many of the turns, the driver gets the car into a certain > 'attitude', and it stays at that attitude until corner exit. How do youdo > that? When I take a turn, the car sort of 'oscillates' in the turn. > > Second - I've noticed that the better drivers can brake in a MUCH shorter > distance than I can. Thus, they can go deeper into a corner. Is thatrelated > to brake balance? Most 'fast' setups I download have a balance of 51 or52%. > When I attempt to drive such a car, I spend more time sliding backwardthan > going forward. > > Third - in the aforementioned short braking zone, there's no tire squeal.For > me to brake light enough so the tires don't squeal, I'd have to brakeabout 5 > carlengths earlier than I do now, which is about 3 carlengths earlier thanTHEY > do. What's the secret? > > Fourth - As I stated before, the fast guys don't squeal the tires in the > braking zone. But, they squeal in the turns. My replays are just theopposite > - squealing in the braking zone, none in the turns. I can do it in the > 'sweeper' - type turns(more time to react?), but not the normal ones. Ifmy > tires are making noise in the turns, it's usually because something hasgone

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> horribly wrong, and I'll shortly be doing some gardening. Tips? > > Thanks for ideas. > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Warning - my GPLRank is +130 (about +90 of that due to the Ring), but I know some theory. >First - on many of the turns, the driver gets the car into a certain >'attitude', and it stays at that attitude until corner exit. How do you do >that? When I take a turn, the car sort of 'oscillates' in the turn. I think their cars have a fair amount of oversteer. They turn in under braking (see below), the back end starts sliding out, and they catch it with exactly the right amount of opposite lock and throttle. Watch a World of Outlaws sprinter on dirt for an example. I would guess you're going thru the corner in small _understeer_ slides (your "oscillations"). More conrollable, but slower. >Second - I've noticed that the better drivers can brake in a MUCH shorter >distance than I can. Thus, they can go deeper into a corner. Is that related >to brake balance? Most 'fast' setups I download have a balance of 51 or 52%. >When I attempt to drive such a car, I spend more time sliding backward than >going forward. 1. See the above. They are managing the oversteer slide that you find uncontrollable. 2. Check out GPL Replay Analyzer. Is there brake point different? Is their rate of deceleration more than yours? I'll bet they're using trail braking and applying some degree of braking all the way down to the apex. GPLRA should show you coming _off_ the brakes sooner. >Third - in the aforementioned short braking zone, there's no tire squeal. For >me to brake light enough so the tires don't squeal, I'd have to brake about 5 >carlengths earlier than I do now, which is about 3 carlengths earlier than THEY >do. What's the secret? I think it's trail braking. >Fourth - As I stated before, the fast guys don't squeal the tires in the >braking zone. But, they squeal in the turns. My replays are just the opposite >- squealing in the braking zone, none in the turns. I can do it in the >'sweeper' - type turns(more time to react?), but not the normal ones. If my >tires are making noise in the turns, it's usually because something has gone >horribly wrong, and I'll shortly be doing some gardening. Tips? You're tracking through the corners and they're sliding. Still, I think lack of tire noise throgh the corner means simply there is a little more speed there. Once again, GPL Replay Analyzer can show you if and how much faster they are through a corner. As was true when I was steel and asphalt racing, I know exactly _what_ to do. If only I could _do_ it better. bob

On 09 Dec 2001 02:11:35 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: Just wanted to throw a couple of things in here, hopefully not a long reply. >I've looked at more than a few replays from the fast guys. A few observations, >along with some questions... > >First - on many of the turns, the driver gets the car into a certain >'attitude', and it stays at that attitude until corner exit. How do you do >that? When I take a turn, the car sort of 'oscillates' in the turn. The oscillation you are probably getting is due to the changes in throttle states vs. momentum that you are getting through the corners. This is effecting to a degree the state of the diff (i.e. whether it is operating in coast or power mode) and also the overall balance of the suspension and "tension" of the suspension components. Any degree of sideways motion is detracting from forward motion, so eliminating this oscillation = faster times, but you probably knew that already. The way you do that is to try and maintain the same degree of throttle through a corner such that the car never lurches into a trailing throttle state (car is travelling faster than the engine is driving it. Now, of course this is not easy BUT is easier if you could force yourself to do one thing. If you enter a corner too quickly then there is no real way you can maintain this balanced throttle through the corner or you go off, so you'll need to ease off, this causes instability which you have to deal with and it's going to compromise that corner. However : MOST drivers do not suffer from entering corners too quicky (certainly not fastish corners). What many drivers do is slow down just a little too much such thet they have a MARGIN FOR ERROR. What they then do, having slowed too much is POWER INTO THE APEX (or at least have more than a balanced throttle). They realise that they gave it a bit too much gas and ease off, enough to drop back into that comfort zone. Then being there agan they feed in a bit too much gas, realise this ease off, feed in more etc. etc. It's not on/off throttle, just very slight variations, all the time the car is lurching between power and coast, tight suspension/ loose suspension. IF YOU FORCED YOURSELF ON TURN-IN TO MAINTAIN AN EVEN/BALANCED THROTTLE UNTIL YOU HAD CLEARED THE APEX AND COULD UNWIND LOCK TO FEED IN MORE POWER then you would not get this instability. HOWEVER, YOU WOULD FIND THAT YOU WOULD FIND THAT YOU ARE TRAVELLING TOO SLOWLY AT/JUST AFTER THE APEX. The reason is you SLOWED DOWN TOO MUCH. So long as a driver continues to "accelerate" (even to a very small degree) to the apex and hence, feels the need to have that comfort zone under braking (WHICH DOES'NT FEEL COMFORTABLE AS YOU ARE USED TO ACCELERATING TO THE APEX) then he will always be hampered to a degree by this instability in the corners which is going to detract from his exit speed which, as we all know, is the real key to going fast. The fact that we often hear "you need to get on the power as soon as possible" perhaps misleads these drivers into thinking that they are in fact doing the right thing by being able to get on the throttle before the apex. Of course, this is a huge generalisation, but I'd say it's a common occurances in the replays I see.. > >Second - I've noticed that the better drivers can brake in a MUCH shorter >distance than I can. Thus, they can go deeper into a corner. Is that related >to brake balance? Most 'fast' setups I download have a balance of 51 or 52%. >When I attempt to drive such a car, I spend more time sliding backward than >going forward. A few things here (damn, loos as though this will be long). FIRST : Are you looking at GPLRA's SPEED graph to see the difference in braking points. One common fault when looking at another drivers replay to try and copy his braking points is that when you look at it, you see the point at which the hose dives to determine where he brakes. WRONG This is is where his braking ACTUALLY TOOK EFFECT. If this point was say JUST as the racing groove darkens at Rouen on the long back straight. If you go out and aim to brake at the same spot you will in fact BRAKE SUBSTANTIALY LATER. Although thats where his brakes took effect he made the "decision" to brake a good 5-10 car lengths earlier and actually, probably started to apply the brakes 4-5 cars lengths earlier. (You travel a hell of a distance at that point on the track in the 1 -2 10ths it takes to react. Try this test. Pick a track and decide you are going to brake EXACTLY at a certain point. The S/F line is a good example (Monza/Rouen/?) So, have it in your mind that you need to "go for the brakes" at that point (which is how we treat braking points). Save the replay and look at it to determine where you actually would notice that braking took place (hence were you, if you were looking at someone elses replay would think they braked. It will be later unless you cheated on the first test. OK, so thats the perception thing out of the way, now to application. Anyone can brake later than you if they are able to enter the corner quicker than you, and I have already that most drivers enter (fastish) corners too slowly. In your fourth point you mention that your tires do not squeal IN the corner, if thats the case you are travelling slower than the guy who's tires are squealing. Also, as your tires aren't squealing and his are HE IS GETTING MORE GRIP. A gently squealing tire is providing more grip than a slilent tire. That maybe hard to believe but it is true. The same is true for braking, if you are getting a gentle squeal you should be gettuing better Grip (i.e. braking) than a driver who's tires are silent. Most of the hotlaps I have seen do have a gently squealing tire under brakes and in fact through the majority of the corner. Also, there are other factors that effect braking performance. You've mentioned brake balance. The only way to brake hard with a 50% or lower Brake Balance is to keep some gas on at the same time. It's widely thought that thjis combination is slightly exxagerated in GPL such that overal braking is increased. I'm not sure but gas under braking helps keep the car more stable, if the car is more stable you can brake harder. So, even if there is no GPL quirk then this combination (gas+brake, more rearward brake balance) should be beneficial. Also, fuel load, ramp angles, camber, toe, spring softness, dampers etc. etc. all effect braking performance. Another Technique related thing is the application of brake. If you applly the brake progressively (still quickly but not off/on) they will bite better than if you use the brake pedal more like an on/off switch. As I said earlier on perception, the hotlapper may have applied some brake before you actually see the dip. Then there the black art of trail-braking. Yes, you may be able to make a very, very small gain, at some corners by braking right up to the apex but in reality most trail-braking that is done (in the real-world) is over with a fraction of a second after turn-in. WHERE POSSIBLE YOU SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE SOME BRAKE APPLIED AT THE POINT OF TURN-IN. OK, it's not always possible but the real key is NOT TO JUMP OFF THE BRAKE JUST BEFORE TURN-IN This will take weight off the front-tires which you need for better turn-in grip. This then goes back to my statement about most drivers entering corners too slowly. Often this is because they HAVE come off the brake before turn-in so THEY CANNOT ENTER MORE QUICKLY. So, it's not just one thing you need to do, more a combination of things, each one making the other one a bit easier/more do-able. >Third - in the aforementioned short braking zone, there's no tire squeal. For >me to brake light enough so the tires don't squeal, I'd have to brake about 5 >carlengths earlier than I do now, which is about 3 carlengths earlier than THEY >do. What's the secret? Unfortunately, there is generally only one term used to describe the noise a tire makes, SQUEAL. In fact there are 2 used in rel-life and I generally used 3 at Jim Russell. 4 if you count silent SILENT SQUEAK SQUEAL SQUAL I'm sure these are descriptive enough for you to understand what I mean. IN essence SILENT is what you should hear on the straights. SQUEAK is what you should hear under brakes and under acceleration out of a bend or from a stanidng start/on change up/accel in a power heavy car. SQUEAL is what you should hear on corner entry and up to the apex (obv this varies with shallo vs. tight corners). SQUAL is generally bad but OK on turn-in under a trailing or balanced throttle BUT you should try and reduce this to SQUEAL as soon as possible. ANYTHING OTHER THAN SQUEAK ON EXITS IS GENERAL BAD NEWS. SILENCE AT ANY TIME FROM TURN-IN TO APEX IS GENERALLY BAD. Of course there are numerous variations and privisos. Some slick tires make virtually no sound at all and when they do they can go from SILENT TO SQUAL very quickly. I'd expect SQUEAK/SQUEAL/SQUAL from any treaded tire. One thing that has always puzzled me is that you rarely hear tire noise in video footage of GPL era races. I'm sure they generated it and I have heard it in historic racing with similar era cars even though driven pretty conservatively. I can only assume that the sound recordings of the day didn't have the range to pick it up and also the engines were loud enough to drown it out. I use a slightly louder skid sound in GPL to try and pick out these differences so I'm not sure how accurate the default GPL one is. >Fourth - As I stated before, the fast guys don't squeal the tires in the >braking zone. But, they squeal in the turns. My replays are just the opposite >- squealing in the braking zone, none in the turns. I can do it in the >'sweeper' - type turns(more time to react?), but not the normal ones. If my >tires are making noise in the turns, it's usually because something has gone >horribly wrong, and I'll shortly be doing some gardening. Tips? From what I remember of your famous replasy from just over a year ago you were getting squeal in the turns, but this was mostly as a result of acceleration rather than speed into. I'm not sure if you have perhaps taken some of the smooth=fast comments to mean being slower in the corners. If your not getting any tire SQUEAL/SQUEAK then you are not going fast enough. Again, as I recall from your replays you had very good car control, so you are not lacking in the skills required to handle faster cornering but you perhaps need to change the way you deal with a corner, base on rhat I've said here and in your other thread about LINE. Whew, sorry to go on, hope it's understandable and useful. Maxx

HHmmmm how much accellerator do you use when braking? The attitude of the car as it enters the corner is usually controlled between both the accel and brake. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I've looked at more than a few replays from the fast guys. A fewobservations, > along with some questions... > > First - on many of the turns, the driver gets the car into a certain > 'attitude', and it stays at that attitude until corner exit. How do youdo > that? When I take a turn, the car sort of 'oscillates' in the turn. > > Second - I've noticed that the better drivers can brake in a MUCH shorter > distance than I can. Thus, they can go deeper into a corner. Is thatrelated > to brake balance? Most 'fast' setups I download have a balance of 51 or52%. > When I attempt to drive such a car, I spend more time sliding backwardthan > going forward. > > Third - in the aforementioned short braking zone, there's no tire squeal.For > me to brake light enough so the tires don't squeal, I'd have to brakeabout 5 > carlengths earlier than I do now, which is about 3 carlengths earlier thanTHEY > do. What's the secret? > > Fourth - As I stated before, the fast guys don't squeal the tires in the > braking zone. But, they squeal in the turns. My replays are just theopposite > - squealing in the braking zone, none in the turns. I can do it in the > 'sweeper' - type turns(more time to react?), but not the normal ones. Ifmy > tires are making noise in the turns, it's usually because something hasgone

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> horribly wrong, and I'll shortly be doing some gardening. Tips? > > Thanks for ideas. > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote: > > First - on many of the turns, the driver gets the car into a certain > 'attitude', and it stays at that attitude until corner exit. How do you do > that? Someone else mentioned they thought the hotlappers are oversteering. Actually, they are slightly in an understeer condition, maintaining speed with throttle input. I don't think you can oversteer in GPL through an entire turn and stay smooth. In my experience, just about any time you oversteer you are losing time. Throttle is the number one most important input in GPL. This is why right-foot braking is such a disadvantage. Even while braking in a straight line, throttle input can help stabilize the car. While cornering, the same thing it true. Both pedals are needed to balance the car at the limit most of the time. > Second - I've noticed that the better drivers can brake in a MUCH shorter > distance than I can. Thus, they can go deeper into a corner. Is that related > to brake balance? Most 'fast' setups I download have a balance of 51 or 52%. > When I attempt to drive such a car, I spend more time sliding backward than > going forward. Throttle input. When the back end gets too light, give it some gas. That will keep the rear wheels turning. > Third - in the aforementioned short braking zone, there's no tire squeal. For > me to brake light enough so the tires don't squeal, I'd have to brake about 5 > carlengths earlier than I do now, which is about 3 carlengths earlier than THEY > do. What's the secret? Light squealing while braking is fine. You can stop quickly without squealing if the tires are right at the threshold of squealing. They probably brake until the tires start to squeal, then back off a hair. > Fourth - As I stated before, the fast guys don't squeal the tires in the > braking zone. But, they squeal in the turns. My replays are just the opposite You have to get better at using the throttle. How good are your controls, especially the pedals? They could be your limiting factor. -- Pat Dotson

EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I've looked at more than a few replays from the fast guys. A few observations, > along with some questions... > > First - on many of the turns, the driver gets the car into a certain > 'attitude', and it stays at that attitude until corner exit. How do you do > that? When I take a turn, the car sort of 'oscillates' in the turn. Oscillation on corner entry is a sign of understeer - mathematically, you've got complex poles with negative real parts; which is a stable system. As you adjust things towards oversteer, the poles come together on the real axis and then one of them heads into the positive region, meaning oversteer which is unstable but non-oscillatory. For anyone who hasn't done control maths, just read the first and last lines ;-) Jonny

On Sun, 9 Dec 2001 21:32:25 -0000, "Jonny Hodgson" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... >> I've looked at more than a few replays from the fast guys. A few observations, >> along with some questions... >> >> First - on many of the turns, the driver gets the car into a certain >> 'attitude', and it stays at that attitude until corner exit. How do you do >> that? When I take a turn, the car sort of 'oscillates' in the turn. > >Oscillation on corner entry is a sign of understeer >- mathematically, you've got complex poles with >negative real parts; which is a stable system. As >you adjust things towards oversteer, the poles come >together on the real axis and then one of them heads >into the positive region, meaning oversteer which is >unstable but non-oscillatory. > >For anyone who hasn't done control maths, just read >the first and last lines ;-) > >Jonny

Jonny, Didn't really understand that but it sounds fascinating stuff. Is there anywhere on the web that I can find out a bit more about this ? TIA Maxx

"Maxx" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse news:[email hidden]... > > Didn't really understand that but it sounds fascinating stuff. > Is there anywhere on the web that I can find out a bit more > about this ? > Introduction to complex numbers would be a good start: http://www.ping.be/math/complget.htm Haven't read it, so I can't vouch for the quality of the writing. But it seems fairly comprehensive - if not comprehendable. ;-) Complex numbers are commonly used in calculations dealing with various wave-forms, eg. water or electronics. /Jens

In article <9uvp2t$bms9v$[email hidden]>, "Dan Leach" <[email hidden]> writes: >HHmmmm how much accellerator do you use when braking? The attitude of the >car as it enters the corner is usually controlled between both the accel and >brake. I'm usually OFF the gas when I brake. It seems counter-intuitive to be applying the gas when you're trying like hell to slow down. I'm working on that, though... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Pat Dotson <[email hidden]> writes:

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>> Fourth - As I stated before, the fast guys don't squeal the tires in the >> braking zone. But, they squeal in the turns. My replays are just the >opposite > >You have to get better at using the throttle. How good >are your controls, especially the pedals? They could >be your limiting factor.

TWS2mod wheel and pedals. I don't think I can blame the hardware...<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Maxx <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Subject: Re: GPL driving tips question(s) >From: Maxx <[email hidden]> >Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 12:09:09 GMT > >On 09 Dec 2001 02:11:35 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > >Just wanted to throw a couple of things in here, hopefully not a long >reply. > >Any degree of sideways motion is detracting from forward >motion, so eliminating this oscillation = faster times, but you >probably knew that already.

I figured it was slowing me down, but your explanation makes it clear.

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>However : >MOST drivers do not suffer from entering corners too >quicky (certainly not fastish corners). > >What many drivers do is slow down just a little too much >such thet they have a MARGIN FOR ERROR. What they >then do, having slowed too much is POWER INTO THE >APEX (or at least have more than a balanced throttle). >They realise that they gave it a bit too much gas and >ease off, enough to drop back into that comfort zone. >Then being there agan they feed in a bit too much gas, >realise this ease off, feed in more etc. etc. > >It's not on/off throttle, just very slight variations, all the time >the car is lurching between power and coast, tight suspension/ >loose suspension. > >IF YOU FORCED YOURSELF ON TURN-IN TO MAINTAIN >AN EVEN/BALANCED THROTTLE UNTIL YOU HAD >CLEARED THE APEX AND COULD UNWIND LOCK TO >FEED IN MORE POWER then you would not get this >instability. > >HOWEVER, YOU WOULD FIND THAT YOU WOULD >FIND THAT YOU ARE TRAVELLING TOO SLOWLY >AT/JUST AFTER THE APEX. > >The reason is you SLOWED DOWN TOO MUCH. >

So you *shouldn't* have a margin for error? You really have to trust that car, huh?<g>

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>So long as a driver continues to "accelerate" (even to >a very small degree) to the apex and hence, feels the >need to have that comfort zone under braking (WHICH >DOES'NT FEEL COMFORTABLE AS YOU ARE USED >TO ACCELERATING TO THE APEX) then he will >always be hampered to a degree by this instability in >the corners which is going to detract from his exit speed >which, as we all know, is the real key to going fast. > >The fact that we often hear "you need to get on the >power as soon as possible" perhaps misleads these >drivers into thinking that they are in fact doing the >right thing by being able to get on the throttle before >the apex.

[snip]

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>A few things here (damn, loos as though this will be long). > >FIRST : Are you looking at GPLRA's SPEED graph to see the >difference in braking points. > >One common fault when looking at another drivers replay to >try and copy his braking points is that when you look at it, >you see the point at which the hose dives to determine where >he brakes. WRONG > >This is is where his braking ACTUALLY TOOK EFFECT.

I hadn't thought about that before, but it makes sense... To piggyback this question and answer one of Bob's questions: When I look at the speed graph in RA, I see my braking start sooner than the fast guys. The relative speeds follow parallel lines down to the slowest part of the corner, with mine ending later and lower. Because the braking lines stay parallel, that should mean that we're slowing at the same RATE, I just do it earlier and for longer. Well, I might release the brakes earlier, but my slowest speed is slower than theirs. Does that make sense? [snip braking point test]

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>OK, so thats the perception thing out of the way, now to >application. > >Anyone can brake later than you if they are able to enter the >corner quicker than you, and I have already that most drivers >enter (fastish) corners too slowly. > >A gently squealing tire is providing more grip than a slilent >tire. That maybe hard to believe but it is true.

No, that makes sense. I understand the physics behind that one...

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>The same is true for braking, if you are getting a gentle >squeal you should be gettuing better Grip (i.e. braking) than >a driver who's tires are silent. Most of the hotlaps I have seen >do have a gently squealing tire under brakes and in fact >through the majority of the corner. > > >WHERE POSSIBLE YOU SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE SOME >BRAKE APPLIED AT THE POINT OF TURN-IN. > >OK, it's not always possible but the real key is NOT TO JUMP >OFF THE BRAKE JUST BEFORE TURN-IN

I probably do that a lot because of my tendency to spin if I'm still on the brakes in a turn. I'm trying to make sure that the two don't happen at the same time... Sounds like that's causing a problem that makes me want to get off the brakes *quicker*, sort of a cause and effect perpetual loop. Result: I hit the brakes sooner, thus need to get back on the gas MORE before the apex, causing more instability, and further throwing the car out of control?

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> >This will take weight off the front-tires which you need for better >turn-in grip. > >This then goes back to my statement about most drivers entering >corners too slowly. Often this is because they HAVE come off the >brake before turn-in so THEY CANNOT ENTER MORE QUICKLY. > >Unfortunately, there is generally only one term used to describe the >noise a tire makes, SQUEAL. In fact there are 2 used in rel-life and >I generally used 3 at Jim Russell. 4 if you count silent > >SILENT >SQUEAK >SQUEAL >SQUAL > >I'm sure these are descriptive enough for you to understand what I >mean. >

Gotcha.

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>IN essence SILENT is what you should hear on the straights. SQUEAK is >what you should hear under brakes and under acceleration out of a bend >or from a stanidng start/on change up/accel in a power heavy car. >SQUEAL is what you should hear on corner entry and up to the apex >(obv this varies with shallo vs. tight corners). >SQUAL is generally bad but OK on turn-in under a trailing or >balanced throttle BUT you should try and reduce this to SQUEAL as >soon as possible. > >ANYTHING OTHER THAN SQUEAK ON EXITS IS GENERAL BAD >NEWS.

Whoops - I'm often at LEAST at the squealing level - especially in the Lotus. >SILENCE AT ANY TIME FROM TURN-IN TO APEX IS GENERALLY >BAD. Whoops again... > >I use a slightly louder skid sound in GPL to try and pick out these >differences so I'm not sure how accurate the default GPL one is. > I do too, and I wondered if that affected what I was hearing in the fastlap replays. I wonder if the sound(loudness and tone) is based on the replay or the machine you WATCH it on...? not sure if you have perhaps taken some of the smooth=fast

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>comments to mean being slower in the corners. If your not getting >any tire SQUEAL/SQUEAK then you are not going fast enough. > >Again, as I recall from your replays you had very good car control, >so you are not lacking in the skills required to handle faster >cornering but you perhaps need to change the way you deal with >a corner, base on rhat I've said here and in your other thread about >LINE. > >Whew, sorry to go on, hope it's understandable and useful. > >Maxx

No problem - I appreciate the effort and time you take to help. I've saved and printed these tips. Even if I don't yet understand ALL of what you say, I get a little more every time. I also know that it helps others, too. Thanks! Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Split axis? EldredP wrote:

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> > In article <[email hidden]>, Pat Dotson > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >> Fourth - As I stated before, the fast guys don't squeal the tires in the > >> braking zone. But, they squeal in the turns. My replays are just the > >opposite > > > >You have to get better at using the throttle. How good > >are your controls, especially the pedals? They could > >be your limiting factor. > > TWS2mod wheel and pedals. I don't think I can blame the hardware...<g> > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Okay I admit it has been a long time since I took control theory, and I believe I slept through most of it anyway, but I still have to question this. How can you define something that is oscillatory as stable? Doesn't the fact that it is oscillating mean that it can't reach or maintain an equilibrium point? "Jonny Hodgson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CVQQ7.19636$[email hidden]...

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> > > Oscillation on corner entry is a sign of understeer > - mathematically, you've got complex poles with > negative real parts; which is a stable system. As > you adjust things towards oversteer, the poles come > together on the real axis and then one of them heads > into the positive region, meaning oversteer which is > unstable but non-oscillatory. > > For anyone who hasn't done control maths, just read > the first and last lines ;-) > > Jonny > >

[email hidden] (Jens H. Kruuse) wrote in <SkTQ7.1615$[email hidden]>: >Complex numbers are commonly used in calculations dealing with various >wave-forms, eg. water or electronics. > >/Jens And fractal generators: http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/fractint.html -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C. GPLRank -15.39 MonsterRank 90.86 Come see how you rank, at the GPLRank site http://newgplrank.schuerkamp.de/

And fractal generators: http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/fractint.html -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C. GPLRank -15.39 MonsterRank 90.86 Come see how you rank, at the GPLRank site [link lost in import]

Haqsau wrote: > > Okay I admit it has been a long time since I took control theory, and I > believe I slept through most of it anyway, but I still have to question > this. How can you define something that is oscillatory as stable? > Doesn't the fact that it is oscillating mean that it can't reach or > maintain an equilibrium point? A pure sine wave is oscillatory. It doesn't reduce in amplitude. This implies that the pole is on the imaginary axis, the boundary between stable (not growing without bound) and unstable. A damped sine wave is oscillatory and stable, at least until it damps so low that you can ignore the oscillations.

Damn those imaginary complex numbers confused me. You guys are reminding me of some heavy physics and maths that really frustrated me at Uni. I tried really hard to forget that stuff :) Rafe Mc On Mon, 10 Dec 2001 01:28:55 +0100, "Jens H. Kruuse" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>"Maxx" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse >news:[email hidden]... >> >> Didn't really understand that but it sounds fascinating stuff. >> Is there anywhere on the web that I can find out a bit more >> about this ? >> > >Introduction to complex numbers would be a good start: >http://www.ping.be/math/complget.htm > >Haven't read it, so I can't vouch for the quality of the writing. But it >seems fairly comprehensive - if not comprehendable. ;-) > >Complex numbers are commonly used in calculations dealing with various >wave-forms, eg. water or electronics. > >/Jens >

On 09 Dec 2001 02:11:35 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >I've looked at more than a few replays from the fast guys. A few observations, >along with some questions... > >First - on many of the turns, the driver gets the car into a certain >'attitude', and it stays at that attitude until corner exit. How do you do >that? When I take a turn, the car sort of 'oscillates' in the turn. Eldred, having read all the other posts they all made good sense. What worked for me though was to get the spring rates matched with the weight balance of the car, as discussed by Ricardo Nunnini on his website. The Lotus has 38% of the weight on the front wheels, 62% on the rear. You set the car up with 38% total spring rate on the front, 62% on the rear. for example, 55 on the front, 90 on the rear gives pretty much the right ratio. If I ever drive GPL without the right spring rates for the car, I find it oscillates all over the place. When they are set as above, it sits into the corner nicely and feels nice and fast. That said, it will still oscillate slightly, just it's much easier to balance and more manageable. Having read Maxx's post (eventually!), I'll try that to see how I go. Good luck! Rafe Mc

On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 19:49:52 -0800, "don hodgdon" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Maxx, I don't know if your post has helped Eldred, but it sure did me. I >just set a new PB at Silverstone! <g> > >Many thanks! Your very welcome Don :-)

On 10 Dec 2001 00:50:20 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >So you *shouldn't* have a margin for error? You really have to trust that car, >huh?<g> It's not so much an overall margin for error it's more leaving quite a bit of margin for error in one place (i.e. corner entry) which in turn leads you to actually TAKE the corner in a different (not so efective manner. In fact, you are probably driving through the corner with little margin for error, so you are not averse to driving close to the limit, It's simply WHERE you do it. Maxx

On 10 Dec 2001 00:50:19 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>In article <9uvp2t$bms9v$[email hidden]>, "Dan Leach" ><[email hidden]> writes: > >>HHmmmm how much accellerator do you use when braking? The attitude of the >>car as it enters the corner is usually controlled between both the accel and >>brake. > >I'm usually OFF the gas when I brake. It seems counter-intuitive to be >applying the gas when you're trying like hell to slow down. I'm working on >that, though...

Well, we've had the discussions about this and whether it's valid/used in real-life but I agree, it doesn't feel natural BUT if you are trying to emulate the braking/turn-in of (most) hot-lappers, you will need to do it. You CAN still go very quickly without this and there are many -ve rank right-foot brakers, although I'm nots ure there are any/many hotlap replays from them. Maxx

On 10 Dec 2001 00:50:20 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>I hadn't thought about that before, but it makes sense... To piggyback this >question and answer one of Bob's questions: When I look at the speed graph in >RA, I see my braking start sooner than the fast guys. The relative speeds >follow parallel lines down to the slowest part of the corner, with mine ending >later and lower. Because the braking lines stay parallel, that should mean >that we're slowing at the same RATE, I just do it earlier and for longer. >Well, I might release the brakes earlier, but my slowest speed is slower than >theirs. Does that make sense?

Perfect sense and is exactly the point I was making. You ARE braking just as well as them, just that you enter the corner slower, hence need to brake earlier. It means you don't have to worry about improving your braking technique, JUST get used to entering corners quicker :-) Maxx

On 10 Dec 2001 00:50:20 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >I probably do that a lot because of my tendency to spin if I'm still on the >brakes in a turn. I'm trying to make sure that the two don't happen at the >same time... Sounds like that's causing a problem that makes me want to get >off the brakes *quicker*, sort of a cause and effect perpetual loop. Result: I >hit the brakes sooner, thus need to get back on the gas MORE before the apex, >causing more instability, and further throwing the car out of control? It's actually VERY, VERY difficult to force yourself to stay on the brakes right up to the initial point of turn-in. If, as an instructor, I told a student to DO this, he probably wouldn't be able to, certainly it would take lots of time and it would probably be very "false". As you mention elsewhere, we would use cones to denote where the drivers should brake/tuen-in/clip and exit. What we'd do is to sneakilly MOVE the braking cone further and further up the track so, the driver is braking later and later (also we'd ask some drivers, who we thought were ready, to brake a couple of cars length later). They knew they had to turn in at the turn-in cone, they also, by now (usually the 5th day) had a feel for speed and grip so in a desperate attempt to slow down enough to make the turn they would hold onto the brake for longer and longer until they would actually be easing off at the point of turn-in. Thats the way I'd suggest you try and do it, you need to use a corner were there is a very good indictaion of your normal braking point. It is tough though, you also NEED some amount of gas on as you turn in (assuming >70mph corner) [generalisation]. TURN-IN is in-fact perhaps the most important aspect of the whole cornering process. It dictates your line through the whole corner AND the amount of speed you carry through and out of it. Maxx

In article <[email hidden]>, Pat Dotson <[email hidden]> writes: >Split axis? > Yes. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" wrote ... > When I look at the speed graph in > RA, I see my braking start sooner than the fast guys. The relative speeds > follow parallel lines down to the slowest part of the corner, with mineending > later and lower. Because the braking lines stay parallel, that shouldmean > that we're slowing at the same RATE, I just do it earlier and for longer. > Well, I might release the brakes earlier, but my slowest speed is slowerthan > theirs. Does that make sense? I noticed the same thing with mine. And I really do think it's a matter of "trusting" the car, it just doesn't seem like you're going to make the corner at speed X so you continue to slow to X-10 or something to be sure you're going to get through okay. One thing that's really helped me with this is the video someone posted a link to here a while back of the guy's feet while he was driving Kyalami or Zandy or somewhere. I don't think he was ever 100% brake - 0% gas, and I believe in most of the turns he was somewhere between 70-30 and 30-70 in different parts of the turn, definitely steering the car with his feet. I found the easiest place to work on this was Silverstone, and it increased my comfort level in the turns a great deal. Nothing magic, but a very helpful starting point for me.

Don, The video to which you refer was made by Andreas Wilke. It can be found here: http://www.sim-replays.de/ Follow the link to the "video" section. I, too, found it very helpful. I tend to like Wilke's setups as well. Michael Lowery Don Jennings wrote:

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> > "EldredP" wrote ... > > When I look at the speed graph in > > RA, I see my braking start sooner than the fast guys. The relative speeds > > follow parallel lines down to the slowest part of the corner, with mine > ending > > later and lower. Because the braking lines stay parallel, that should > mean > > that we're slowing at the same RATE, I just do it earlier and for longer. > > Well, I might release the brakes earlier, but my slowest speed is slower > than > > theirs. Does that make sense? > > I noticed the same thing with mine. And I really do think it's a matter of > "trusting" the car, it just doesn't seem like you're going to make the > corner at speed X so you continue to slow to X-10 or something to be sure > you're going to get through okay. One thing that's really helped me with > this is the video someone posted a link to here a while back of the guy's > feet while he was driving Kyalami or Zandy or somewhere. I don't think he > was ever 100% brake - 0% gas, and I believe in most of the turns he was > somewhere between 70-30 and 30-70 in different parts of the turn, definitely > steering the car with his feet. I found the easiest place to work on this > was Silverstone, and it increased my comfort level in the turns a great > deal. Nothing magic, but a very helpful starting point for me.

Maxx <[email hidden]> wrote in

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>>I'm usually OFF the gas when I brake. It seems counter-intuitive to be >>applying the gas when you're trying like hell to slow down. I'm >>working on that, though... > > Well, we've had the discussions about this and whether it's valid/used > in real-life but I agree, it doesn't feel natural BUT if you are > trying to emulate the braking/turn-in of (most) hot-lappers, you will > need to do it. >

Aren't you effectively "adjusting" the rear brake bias by using the throttle? You set a rear bias in the chassis setup, then reduce the amount of rear braking effort in a race by progressively applying throttle under braking, in effect moving the brake bias forward. Quite a balancing act, but it makes sense to me (I couldn't do it myself though!) cheers John

In article <[email hidden]>, Maxx <[email hidden]> writes:

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>>I'm usually OFF the gas when I brake. It seems counter-intuitive to be >>applying the gas when you're trying like hell to slow down. I'm working on >>that, though... > >Well, we've had the discussions about this and whether it's valid/used >in real-life but I agree, it doesn't feel natural BUT if you are >trying to emulate the braking/turn-in of (most) hot-lappers, you will >need to do it. > >You CAN still go very quickly without this and there are many -ve rank >right-foot brakers, although I'm nots ure there are any/many hotlap >replays from them.

Ok. And to answer your other question about braking points, it's both visual and graphical. Using SpyGirl, I can see on the merged replay that my car slows earlier than a faster driver. I can also see that in the graph. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Maxx <[email hidden]> writes:

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>On 10 Dec 2001 00:50:20 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > >>So you *shouldn't* have a margin for error? You really have to trust that >car, >>huh?<g> > >It's not so much an overall margin for error it's more leaving quite >a bit of margin for error in one place (i.e. corner entry) which in >turn leads you to actually TAKE the corner in a different (not so >efective manner. > >In fact, you are probably driving through the corner with little >margin for error, so you are not averse to driving close to >the limit, It's simply WHERE you do it. > >Maxx

Hmm...interesting concept. I'll have to think about that one...<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Rafe McAuliffe) writes:

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>>First - on many of the turns, the driver gets the car into a certain >>'attitude', and it stays at that attitude until corner exit. How do you do >>that? When I take a turn, the car sort of 'oscillates' in the turn. > >Eldred, having read all the other posts they all made good sense. What >worked for me though was to get the spring rates matched with the >weight balance of the car, as discussed by Ricardo Nunnini on his >website. The Lotus has 38% of the weight on the front wheels, 62% on >the rear. You set the car up with 38% total spring rate on the front, >62% on the rear. for example, 55 on the front, 90 on the rear gives >pretty much the right ratio. > >If I ever drive GPL without the right spring rates for the car, I find >it oscillates all over the place. When they are set as above, it sits >into the corner nicely and feels nice and fast. > >That said, it will still oscillate slightly, just it's much easier to >balance and more manageable. Having read Maxx's post (eventually!), >I'll try that to see how I go. Good luck! >

I ran some league practice at Zandy, and a race at Spa yesterday. I was conscious of the throttle during the turns. My turns were a lot more steady. Wasn't any faster, but steady...<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Maxx <[email hidden]> wrote in > > > Aren't you effectively "adjusting" the rear brake bias by using the > throttle? You set a rear bias in the chassis setup, then reduce the > amount of rear braking effort in a race by progressively applying > throttle under braking, in effect moving the brake bias forward.

Quite a > balancing act, but it makes sense to me (I couldn't do it myselfthough!) > I think this is true. Looked at another way, if you don't modulate the throttle during braking, your downshifting pattern in combination with engine braking is changing the brake bias for you, whether you like it or not. So it behooves you to stay on the throttle a little to prevent that.

Michael G. Lowery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Don, > The video to which you refer was made by Andreas Wilke. It can be found > here: > > http://www.sim-replays.de/ > > Follow the link to the "video" section. I, too, found it very helpful. > I tend to like Wilke's setups as well. > > Michael Lowery

Thank you! That will prove useful! =) -- - Will DeRivera - GPL Rank 113.13, damn the 'ring! - http://www.numic.net - http://www.luxt.com

Maxx <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... <snipped> Holy cow! Go Maxx! /me saves post -- - Will DeRivera - GPL Rank 113.13, damn the 'ring! - http://www.numic.net - http://www.luxt.com

In article <rzcR7.1966$[email hidden]>, "Will DeRivera" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Maxx <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... ><snipped> > >Holy cow! Go Maxx! > >/me saves post >

Yep, there are some VERY talented people here...<g> I saved *and* printed Maxx's suggestions... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> I ran some league practice at Zandy, and a race at Spa yesterday. I was > conscious of the throttle during the turns. My turns were a lot moresteady. > Wasn't any faster, but steady...<g> > > Eldred Applying some throttle while braking is so counter-intuitive that it sounds more difficult than it actually is. My guess is that you would have less trouble learning this than you had with left foot braking. I found Barty Mee's replays to be very illustrative and helpful. Rick

Haqsau <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:tdWQ7.44728$[email hidden]... > Okay I admit it has been a long time since I took control theory, and I > believe I slept through most of it anyway, but I still have to question > this. How can you define something that is oscillatory as stable? > Doesn't the fact that it is oscillating mean that it can't reach or > maintain an equilibrium point? The oscillation is a sign that there's some sort of effect trying to return it to centre, and is determined by the imaginary value of the poles. It can be stable or unstable (increasing or decreasing amplitude) depending on the real value - positive is unstable. Oversteer is unstable and non-oscillatory - the car's yaw angle starts to deviate from zero, and continues to deviate :-) (in the absence of driver correction.) Jonny

Rafe McAuliffe <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Eldred, having read all the other posts they all made good sense. What > worked for me though was to get the spring rates matched with the > weight balance of the car, as discussed by Ricardo Nunnini on his > website. The Lotus has 38% of the weight on the front wheels, 62% on > the rear. You set the car up with 38% total spring rate on the front, > 62% on the rear. for example, 55 on the front, 90 on the rear gives > pretty much the right ratio.

Agreed, although I like to have the front *slightly* too stiff - it helps to keep the front up during braking and jumps. I then bring the balance back with the 'bars. Jonny

In article <B_mR7.7658$[email hidden]>, "Rick Boyd" <[email hidden]> writes: >Applying some throttle while braking is so counter-intuitive that it sounds >more difficult than it actually is. My guess is that you would have less >trouble learning this than you had with left foot braking. I found Barty >Mee's replays to be very illustrative and helpful. > Where would I find those replays? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Maxx <[email hidden]> writes:

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>They knew they had to turn in at the turn-in cone, they also, by >now (usually the 5th day) had a feel for speed and grip so in a >desperate attempt to slow down enough to make the turn they >would hold onto the brake for longer and longer until they >would actually be easing off at the point of turn-in. > >Thats the way I'd suggest you try and do it, you need to use >a corner were there is a very good indictaion of your normal >braking point.

Braking, or turn-in? If you mean braking, then how do I determine the correct turn-in point? >It is tough though, you also NEED some amount of gas on >as you turn in (assuming >70mph corner) [generalisation]. > >TURN-IN is in-fact perhaps the most important aspect of >the whole cornering process. It dictates your line through the >whole corne I sense I'll be destroying a LOT of cars this weekend...<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Maxx <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Perfect sense and is exactly the point I was making. You ARE braking >just as well as them, just that you enter the corner slower, hence >need to brake earlier. > >It means you don't have to worry about improving your braking >technique, JUST get used to entering corners quicker :-) > >

That actually makes me feel a bit more confidend about it. If I can figure out how to carry the same speeds theough the corner, I should be able to brake at the same spots... I'm thinking the speeds are more a result of the line than I thought. Back to the drawing board...<g> Cool, thanks! Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <lR2R7.2528$[email hidden]>, "Don Jennings" <[email hidden]> writes: >I noticed the same thing with mine. And I really do think it's a matter of >"trusting" the car, it just doesn't seem like you're going to make the >corner at speed X so you continue to slow to X-10 or something to be sure >you're going to get through okay. Based on the discussions, My theory is this: I try to brake at the same place as the others. Because I release the brakes before I turn, the car is more unstable at the same(?) speed. If I'm at the same speed, I crash. Therefore, I need to go slower through the turns, so I start hitting the brakes earlier. I don't know if that makes any sense, or even if I've explained it correctly...<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote: > > Based on the discussions, My theory is this: I try to brake at the same place > as the others. Because I release the brakes before I turn, the car is more > unstable at the same(?) speed. If I'm at the same speed, I crash. Do you want to know why you are unstable when you stop braking at higher speeds? The answer is (surprise) throttle!!! By "unstable", you mean loose, right? When you release the brake you are unstable because the engine is trying to slow down the rear wheels. The faster you are going (higher rpm), the more the engine creates a drag on the rear wheels. Too much drag on the rear wheels causes the car to swap ends. It's the same thing as having too much rear brake bias. Give it a bit of gas, and viola, no more drag on the rear wheels. The car becomes stable. Note that when I say "give it gas", I don't mean start accelerating. Just match the engine rpm to your wheel speed so that you are neither accelerating or creating drag. Have you tried this technique? As long as you've been driving GPL, there isn't any reason you shouldn't be faster. -- Pat Dotson

In article <[email hidden]>, Pat Dotson <[email hidden]> writes: >Have you tried this technique? As long as you've been >driving GPL, there isn't any reason you shouldn't be >faster. > Um, no talent?<g> Seriously, I'm trying to convince myself that applying throttle while trying to SLOW DOWN is a correct thing to do. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Jonny Hodgson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:UPrR7.547$[email hidden]... > > Rafe McAuliffe <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]... > > > Eldred, having read all the other posts they all made good sense.What > > worked for me though was to get the spring rates matched with the > > weight balance of the car, as discussed by Ricardo Nunnini on his > > website. The Lotus has 38% of the weight on the front wheels, 62% on > > the rear. You set the car up with 38% total spring rate on thefront,

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> > 62% on the rear. for example, 55 on the front, 90 on the rear gives > > pretty much the right ratio. > > Agreed, although I like to have the front *slightly* > too stiff - it helps to keep the front up during > braking and jumps. I then bring the balance back > with the 'bars. > > Jonny >

From what I have read in the "Bible" (Race Car Vehicle Dynamics) that is more typical of real world setups also - the front is set up to have slightly less static deflection than the rear, which means slightly higher undamped natural frequency. You and I have discussed this before and I recall you saying that they need to be slightly different to cancel pitch oscillations, and I would assume that it is preferable to have the front be the stiffer one since stiffer = faster response, thus improving steering feel.

EldredP wrote:

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> > >Have you tried this technique? As long as you've been > >driving GPL, there isn't any reason you shouldn't be > >faster. > > Um, no talent?<g> > Seriously, I'm trying to convince myself that applying throttle while trying to > SLOW DOWN is a correct thing to do.

If you have to convince yourself even to try it, just keep in mind that you aren't giving it enough gas to accelerate, just enough to keep the rear wheels moving. You should barely even be putting pressure on the pedal, and that makes all the difference in the world. Believe it or not, you will actually stop more quickly once you get the hang of it. You asked how to stop faster while maintaining control, and I've told you how. NOW DO IT!!! :) -- Pat Dotson

EldredP wrote:

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> >Have you tried this technique? As long as you've been > >driving GPL, there isn't any reason you shouldn't be > >faster. > > Um, no talent?<g> > Seriously, I'm trying to convince myself that applying throttle while trying to > SLOW DOWN is a correct thing to do.

And, BTW, to an extent no talent is required if you are willing to practice hard enough. You show the dedication, but you need technique. One other point about this... You don't have to be pushing on the throttle the whole time you are braking, only when the back end of the car is getting light. -- Pat Dotson

In article <[email hidden]>, Pat Dotson <[email hidden]> writes:

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>If you have to convince yourself even to try it, >just keep in mind that you aren't giving it >enough gas to accelerate, just enough to keep >the rear wheels moving. You should barely even >be putting pressure on the pedal, and that makes >all the difference in the world. Believe it or >not, you will actually stop more quickly once you >get the hang of it. > >You asked how to stop faster while maintaining >control, and I've told you how. NOW DO IT!!! :)

Sir, yesSIR!!! <g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

http://gplhotlaps.racesim.net/index.html "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <B_mR7.7658$[email hidden]>, "RickBoyd" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Applying some throttle while braking is so counter-intuitive that itsounds

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> >more difficult than it actually is. My guess is that you would have less > >trouble learning this than you had with left foot braking. I found Barty > >Mee's replays to be very illustrative and helpful. > > > > Where would I find those replays? > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <MoGR7.9188$[email hidden]>, "Rick Boyd" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>http://gplhotlaps.racesim.net/index.html > > >"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> In article <B_mR7.7658$[email hidden]>, "Rick >Boyd" >> <[email hidden]> writes: >> >> >Applying some throttle while braking is so counter-intuitive that it >sounds >> >more difficult than it actually is. My guess is that you would have less >> >trouble learning this than you had with left foot braking. I found Barty >> >Mee's replays to be very illustrative and helpful. >> > >> >> Where would I find those replays?

Thanks! Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.