GTR: You must be kidding me

I just tried the GTR v2 demo and man what a piece of junk! It would not load properly and when it did it would not calibrate my wheel. What I did manage to see looked like a very bad arcade game. As far as I can tell, GPL is STILL the best. What a disappointment. If I am missing something, someone please tell me. I have a great computer and I am no stranger to racing sims, so, if it's something that I am missing, please tell me. Thanks.

In article <trtof.33657$[email hidden]>, graycat says... > If I am missing something, someone please tell me. I have a great computer > and I am no stranger to racing sims, so, if it's something that I am > missing, please tell me. Thanks. You're missing something. -- Cheers, Rod.

graycat says... You're missing something. -- Cheers, Rod.

"RodP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <trtof.33657$[email hidden]>, > graycat says... > >> If I am missing something, someone please tell me. I have a great >> computer >> and I am no stranger to racing sims, so, if it's something that I am >> missing, please tell me. Thanks. > > You're missing something. > > -- > Cheers, > Rod.

Thanks Rod, that was very helpful.

In article <9Qtof.33660$[email hidden]>, graycat says...

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> > "RodP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <trtof.33657$[email hidden]>, > > graycat says... > > > >> If I am missing something, someone please tell me. I have a great > >> computer > >> and I am no stranger to racing sims, so, if it's something that I am > >> missing, please tell me. Thanks. > > > > You're missing something. > > > > -- > > Cheers, > > Rod. > > Thanks Rod, that was very helpful.

I don't know what else you were asking for...? GTR is worth it. You didn't give any specs of your system. All you really asked was whether GTR is worth it, IMO it is. -- Cheers, Rod.

"RodP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <9Qtof.33660$[email hidden]>, > graycat says... > >> >> "RodP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >> > In article <trtof.33657$[email hidden]>, >> > graycat says... >> > >> >> If I am missing something, someone please tell me. I have a great >> >> computer >> >> and I am no stranger to racing sims, so, if it's something that I am >> >> missing, please tell me. Thanks. >> > >> > You're missing something. >> > >> > -- >> > Cheers, >> > Rod. >> >> Thanks Rod, that was very helpful. > > I don't know what else you were asking for...? > > GTR is worth it. > > You didn't give any specs of your system. All you really asked was > whether GTR is worth it, IMO it is. > > -- > Cheers, > Rod.

I just got through building my new computer, AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual core, 4800 Toledo CPU. Asus A8N32-SLI-Deluxe. 2 gigs of OCR 4200 gold Ram. 2 Maxtor serial hard drives. This box kicks ass. When I installed GTR, it kept locking up on me and I had to reboot twice. Then it would not recognize my Logitech Formula Force wheel and so I never really got started. I spent about 45 minutes trying to get it right before I got pissed off and just quit. This is not a good sign for a sim that people are saying good things about. So, if you have any ideas as to why it would not recognize my wheel, that would be great. Then maybe I could give it a real go. Anyone else have a problem with their Logitech FF wheel?

It's quite obviously a system issue, not a game issue. I suggest you seek help here.... www.gtr-game.com Your original post was quite poorly thought out by the way. Try to learn to investigate things thoroughly before typing... GTR isn't perfect but it's definitely up there with GPL. Better in some ways and not as good in other ways.

My understanding is it will not run using Windows XP 64. Chad F1simracer "graycat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:trtof.33657$[email hidden]...

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>I just tried the GTR v2 demo and man what a piece of junk! It would not >load properly and when it did it would not calibrate my wheel. What I did >manage to see looked like a very bad arcade game. As far as I can tell, GPL >is STILL the best. What a disappointment. > If I am missing something, someone please tell me. I have a great computer > and I am no stranger to racing sims, so, if it's something that I am > missing, please tell me. Thanks. >

Do you have all of the latest drivers and latest DX9? GTR is a great sim, it's definetely up there with the best sims imo. If you don't already have rFactor I would reccomend it too..

John Smith wrote: > Do you have all of the latest drivers and latest DX9? GTR is a great sim, > it's definetely up there with the best sims imo. If you don't already have > rFactor I would reccomend it too.. John - - on a totally unrelated item, would you mind shooting me an email to [email hidden]? thanks!

"graycat" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> I just got through building my new computer, AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual core, > 4800 Toledo CPU. Asus A8N32-SLI-Deluxe. 2 gigs of OCR 4200 gold Ram. 2 > Maxtor serial hard drives. This box kicks ass. > When I installed GTR, it kept locking up on me and I had to reboot twice. > Then it would not recognize my Logitech Formula Force wheel and so I never > really got started. I spent about 45 minutes trying to get it right before I > got pissed off and just quit. This is not a good sign for a sim that people > are saying good things about. > So, if you have any ideas as to why it would not recognize my wheel, that > would be great. Then maybe I could give it a real go. > Anyone else have a problem with their Logitech FF wheel?

I have tested the GTR demo, and it works fine with my Logitech MOMO wheel. It felt a bit twisty and a bit "detached" from the ground, but that's how I feel most sims feel. I guess it's the difference between GPL cars and the touring/sports cars in GTR. (hey, I don't know the difference so I just know it aint a '67 F1 one...) /andreas -- A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

"Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> It's quite obviously a system issue, not a game issue. I suggest you seek > help here.... www.gtr-game.com > > Your original post was quite poorly thought out by the way. Try to learn > to investigate things thoroughly before typing... > > GTR isn't perfect but it's definitely up there with GPL. Better in some > ways and not as good in other ways. > >

Hey, I'm trying to be just like you, but it's hard, ya know. I meant every word in my first post.

graycat wrote:

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> I just tried the GTR v2 demo and man what a piece of junk! It would not load > properly and when it did it would not calibrate my wheel. What I did manage > to see looked like a very bad arcade game. As far as I can tell, GPL is > STILL the best. What a disappointment. > If I am missing something, someone please tell me. I have a great computer > and I am no stranger to racing sims, so, if it's something that I am > missing, please tell me. Thanks. > >

wow, i wish i could help you, but i dont know why you are having those problems. it is no surprise at the declining state of the simulator world with the completely snobbish replies you have gotten, though.

> I just tried the GTR v2 demo > ... dual core ... Try turning off the dual core. This has caused problems with some games. I don't know if there's a patch for GTR to run with dual core cpus or not. I have a P4EE3.4GHZ with hyperthreading enabled, and GTR runs just fine. Here's a sample video: http://jeffareid.net/gtr/gtrspa.wmv

Is the Logitech a game port wheel?USB is better for WinXP -- Steve H "graycat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:j0vof.33667$[email hidden]... > I just got through building my new computer, AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual core, > 4800 Toledo CPU. Asus A8N32-SLI-Deluxe. 2 gigs of OCR 4200 gold Ram. 2 > Maxtor serial hard drives. This box kicks ass. > When I installed GTR, it kept locking up on me and I had to reboot twice. > Then it would not recognize my Logitech Formula Force wheel and so I never > really got started. I spent about 45 minutes trying to get it right before > I got pissed off and just quit. This is not a good sign for a sim that > people are saying good things about. > So, if you have any ideas as to why it would not recognize my wheel, that > would be great. Then maybe I could give it a real go. > Anyone else have a problem with their Logitech FF wheel? >

"straiton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1134804375.964621@teuthos...

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> Is the Logitech a game port wheel?USB is better for WinXP > -- > > Steve H > "graycat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:j0vof.33667$[email hidden]... >> I just got through building my new computer, AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual core, >> 4800 Toledo CPU. Asus A8N32-SLI-Deluxe. 2 gigs of OCR 4200 gold Ram. 2 >> Maxtor serial hard drives. This box kicks ass. >> When I installed GTR, it kept locking up on me and I had to reboot twice. >> Then it would not recognize my Logitech Formula Force wheel and so I >> never really got started. I spent about 45 minutes trying to get it right >> before I got pissed off and just quit. This is not a good sign for a sim >> that people are saying good things about. >> So, if you have any ideas as to why it would not recognize my wheel, that >> would be great. Then maybe I could give it a real go. >> Anyone else have a problem with their Logitech FF wheel? >> > >

It's USB. It has worked very well in GPL for over 5 years.

"Andreas Davour" wrote in message...

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>> <snip> > I have tested the GTR demo, and it works fine with my Logitech > MOMO wheel. It felt a bit twisty and a bit "detached" from the > ground, but that's how I feel most sims feel. I guess it's the > difference between GPL cars and the touring/sports cars in GTR. > (hey, I don't know the difference so I just know it aint a '67 F1 > one...)

Sounds like you haven't got the "invert" box (at work, so not sure what it's called in the game) in the FF settnigs screen ticked. GTR should feel a lot more "attached" than GPL... just don't forget to warm up your brakes or you'll be in for a surprise at Les Combes. <g> Jan. =---

"John Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:NCzof.860$[email hidden]... > Do you have all of the latest drivers and latest DX9? GTR is a great sim, > it's definetely up there with the best sims imo. If you don't already have > rFactor I would reccomend it too.. >yea but i've heard of lots of problems with winxp 64 bit and some sims. luckily i didn't order that on my new box.

Watched the video. Good driving. "Jeff Reid" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7DJof.14$nj1.0@fed1read07...

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>> I just tried the GTR v2 demo >> ... dual core ... > > Try turning off the dual core. This has caused problems with > some games. I don't know if there's a patch for GTR to run > with dual core cpus or not. I have a P4EE3.4GHZ with > hyperthreading enabled, and GTR runs just fine. > > Here's a sample video: > > http://jeffareid.net/gtr/gtrspa.wmv > > >

"Jeff Reid" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7DJof.14$nj1.0@fed1read07...

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>> I just tried the GTR v2 demo >> ... dual core ... > > Try turning off the dual core. This has caused problems with > some games. I don't know if there's a patch for GTR to run > with dual core cpus or not. I have a P4EE3.4GHZ with > hyperthreading enabled, and GTR runs just fine. > > Here's a sample video: > > http://jeffareid.net/gtr/gtrspa.wmv > >

Nice lap, I may have done that.......once. I never knew you could cut that busstop so badly....now I do! Thanks, Ed

It worked on mysystem, with excellent framerates, but, after a month of rFactor, the GTR demo left me unimpressed; I felt like a spectator. Could be the dark, sunset settiing. It lacks RF's visceral, you-are-there feel. However, I've heard GTL ups the ante- if you like the old cars.

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> "Andreas Davour" wrote in message... > >> <snip> > > I have tested the GTR demo, and it works fine with my Logitech > > MOMO wheel. It felt a bit twisty and a bit "detached" from the > > ground, but that's how I feel most sims feel. I guess it's the > > difference between GPL cars and the touring/sports cars in GTR. > > (hey, I don't know the difference so I just know it aint a '67 F1 > > one...) > > Sounds like you haven't got the "invert" box (at work, so not sure what it's > called in the game) in the FF settnigs screen ticked. GTR should feel a lot > more "attached" than GPL... just don't forget to warm up your brakes or > you'll be in for a surprise at Les Combes. <g>

Well, it didn't pull me into the corners like F1C did, if that what you mean. It just didn't feel like I was in control of the car like I feel in GPL. I hope it doesn't sound to snobbish, but for meGTR didn't feel very much at all. Some have talked about the feel of rFactor being a bit like "driving on polygons" compared to GPL. Maybe it's the same thing, I don't know. I'd love to try a touring/sports car sim that feel good to drive! BTW, I think the original poster should try to get GTR to work anyway. It has the best sound I've ever heard in a racing sim! Just fantastic. /andreas -- A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

Graycat - You have some kind of a systems problem. So I can be of no help there. Your problem is not fundamental to GTR. FWIW, the physics in GTR are greatly superior to GPL, as they should be some years later. The cars respond well to setup changes, you can't jerk the wheel back and forth like you can in GPL, you can't run the cars too low, etc etc. If you just like the GPL cars, or race online its a different matter. For hotlapping and racing against the AI GTR has replaced GPL for me, and for many former GPL addicts. Rfactor is also good, but the cars and tracks are fantasies, so I'm not interested.

"Bob" <[email hidden]> writes: > If you just like the GPL cars, or race online its a different matter. > For hotlapping and racing against the AI GTR has replaced GPL for me, > and for many former GPL addicts. Rfactor is also good, but the cars > and tracks are fantasies, so I'm not interested. Bob, Since you know a little about both GPL and GTR maybe you could enlighten me a bit about the online capabilities of GTR? I've heard a lot of weird nice about it, and don't know what to think. ...maybe this counts as a threadjack... /andreas -- A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

> I never knew you could cut that busstop so badly....now I do! I follow the 2 wheel standard, keeping 2 wheels on the track / curbing at all times. Note that the real F1 drivers did the same thing before they lenghthened the chicane at Spa, here's a video of David Coulthard with a qualifying setup back in 2002: http://jeffareid.net/real/spaf1.wmv

"Jeff Reid" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:uP0pf.122$TI6.68@fed1read03...

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>> I never knew you could cut that busstop so badly....now I do! > > I follow the 2 wheel standard, keeping 2 wheels on the track / > curbing at all times. Note that the real F1 drivers did the > same thing before they lenghthened the chicane at Spa, > here's a video of David Coulthard with a qualifying setup > back in 2002: > > http://jeffareid.net/real/spaf1.wmv

I always thought that the 2 wheel standard is that you always have 2 complete tyres on the black/grey part of the track. Cutting more than that is too much, imo. -- Mika Takala

"Since you know a little about both GPL and GTR maybe you could enlighten me a bit about the online capabilities of GTR?" Sorry, I don't do online. Some people thnk online GTR is bad, some think it's OK. GTLegends is supposedly better online.

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>>> I never knew you could cut that busstop so badly....now I do! >> >> I follow the 2 wheel standard, keeping 2 wheels on the track / >> curbing at all times. Note that the real F1 drivers did the >> same thing before they lenghthened the chicane at Spa, >> here's a video of David Coulthard with a qualifying setup >> back in 2002: >> >> http://jeffareid.net/real/spaf1.wmv > > I always thought that the 2 wheel standard is that you always have 2 complete tyres on the black/grey part of the > track. Cutting more than that is too much, imo.

For GPL, the standard was any part of the two tires touching the track. GTR cars are more spin prone than the cars of other sims, especially at that chicane which has a slight crest on the right turns. For GTR, I cut that chicane more than I do with other games to avoid losing the rear end. If you look at my F1 run at the Spa 2002 setup, I barely touch the curbs: http://jeffareid.net/f1c/f1cspa.wmv If you look at the video of the F1 at Spa, you'll note that there is some green track just outside of the curbing, and many racers routinely cut there. Spa has since been changed, the track bends more right before the first tight left, and there's a short straight before the tight right. The rise in the turn is virtually gone now. The issue with the old chicane was going over the curbing was rough on the suspension of the F1 cars, so they changed it.

> "Since you know a little about both GPL and GTR maybe you could > enlighten > me a bit about the online capabilities of GTR?" > > Sorry, I don't do online. Some people thnk online GTR is bad, some > think it's OK. GTLegends is supposedly better online. My experiences with all versions of GTR have left a lot to be desired online. Cars disappearing, floating, appearing on top of each other etc.Some people claim that if you mess around with the client/server settings enough you can have some good races. rFactor has been very good online for me. I've only had about 30-40 races but haven't had any real issues. Never had any problems with GPL either after they released the 'disco' patch.

I probably won't get it because of the copy protection. If they want to protect the CD, fine. We're used to that. But installing all sorts of crap on my computer (MY computer) that is not relevent to the game is going to far. Just ask Sony how that's worked out for them. -Larry "graycat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:trtof.33657$[email hidden]...

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>I just tried the GTR v2 demo and man what a piece of junk! It would not >load properly and when it did it would not calibrate my wheel. What I did >manage to see looked like a very bad arcade game. As far as I can tell, GPL >is STILL the best. What a disappointment. > If I am missing something, someone please tell me. I have a great computer > and I am no stranger to racing sims, so, if it's something that I am > missing, please tell me. Thanks. >

> I just got through building my new computer, Hmmm, maybe, just maybe, there lies your problem? and maybe, just maybe, its not GTR thats at fault here.....? Maybe, just maybe, you should go back and check your new pc build for probs? Just a suggestion....

"Larry \(The Other Larry\)" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> I probably won't get it because of the copy protection. > > If they want to protect the CD, fine. We're used to that. But installing > all sorts of crap on my computer (MY computer) that is not relevent to the > game is going to far. > > Just ask Sony how that's worked out for them.

That probably is the main problem with GTR for most of us, yes. /andreas -- A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

"Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> > "Since you know a little about both GPL and GTR maybe you could > > enlighten > > me a bit about the online capabilities of GTR?" > > > > Sorry, I don't do online. Some people thnk online GTR is bad, some > > think it's OK. GTLegends is supposedly better online. > > My experiences with all versions of GTR have left a lot to be desired > online. Cars disappearing, floating, appearing on top of each other > etc.Some people claim that if you mess around with the client/server > settings enough you can have some good races. rFactor has been very good > online for me. I've only had about 30-40 races but haven't had any real > issues. Never had any problems with GPL either after they released the > 'disco' patch.

OK. Thanks. /andreas -- A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

Larry (The Other Larry) wrote: > If they want to protect the CD, fine. We're used to that. But installing > all sorts of crap on my computer (MY computer) that is not relevent to the > game is going to far. Two separate secret codes to be typed in, the aforementioned crap installed on my computer, and STILL I'm required to have the CD in the drive to play. Wow, could you make it a little more inconvenient please? Don McCorkle

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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>> I just got through building my new computer, > > Hmmm, maybe, just maybe, there lies your problem? and maybe, just maybe, > its not GTR thats at fault here.....? > > Maybe, just maybe, you should go back and check your new pc build for > probs? > > Just a suggestion....

This is the fifth computer that I have built. Every other game works just fine. Controller issues aside, from what I can tell, GTR is an arcade game, not a simulator. Back to GPL. Just maybe, you are a wise ass brit wanker.

"graycat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8ePpf.35252$[email hidden]... > Just maybe, you are a wise ass brit wanker. > > You say that as if you consider it a bad thing ? ;)

"Ian P" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> "graycat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8ePpf.35252$[email hidden]... > > > Just maybe, you are a wise ass brit wanker. > > > > You say that as if you consider it a bad thing ? ;)

Best thing I've read this week! :) /andreas -- A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

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> > Maybe, just maybe, you should go back and check your new pc build > > for > > probs? > > > > Just a suggestion.... > > This is the fifth computer that I have built. Every other game works > just fine. Controller issues aside, from what I can tell, GTR is an > arcade game, not a simulator. Back to GPL. > Just maybe, you are a wise ass brit wanker.

Ouch! gosh that hurt! My, my, your parents must be so proud? And if you really must resort to foul language as an alternative to reasoned argument, then at least try to get your prose correct. If you insist on using English (British) terms such as wanker, then you should also use "arse" rather than ass (which is an American term). *Peter* - http://homepage.ntlworld.com/petergagg/

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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>> > Maybe, just maybe, you should go back and check your new pc build >> > for >> > probs? >> > >> > Just a suggestion.... >> >> This is the fifth computer that I have built. Every other game works >> just fine. Controller issues aside, from what I can tell, GTR is an >> arcade game, not a simulator. Back to GPL. >> Just maybe, you are a wise ass brit wanker. > > Ouch! gosh that hurt! > > My, my, your parents must be so proud? > > And if you really must resort to foul language as an alternative to > reasoned argument, then at least try to get your prose correct. If you > insist on using English (British) terms such as wanker, then you should > also use "arse" rather than ass (which is an American term). > > > > > *Peter* - http://homepage.ntlworld.com/petergagg/

You are the one who took the first swipe at me. So, kiss my arse.

graycat wrote: > This is the fifth computer that I have built. Every other game works just > fine. Controller issues aside, from what I can tell, GTR is an arcade game, > not a simulator. Back to GPL. graycat - I'm not questioning your expertise. But few people have the problems with GTR that you do. It's far from an arcade game, and the physics are far superior to GPL, as they should be after all these years. Among many other things, the modeling of the tracks surface and the cars realistic response to bumps are awesome compared to GPL's rough approximations. So, no offense intended, it appears that you have a systems problem of some sort. GTR is well worth sorting it out. I've spent many hours running GPL but I can't run it any more, the errors in the physics drive me nuts. Unrealistic response to setup changes (particularly the Lotus), unrealistic responses to too rapid control inputs, fast setups that are unrealistically low etc. etc. If you run GTR cars too low, they bottom out and unload the tires over bumps. They even slow down due to the drag. Responses to setup changes are sensitive and realistic. Feed the wheel in too fast and you'll jerk one end or the other loose. If you've only tried the old GTR demo, maybe that's the problem. You could try posting your problem here: http://forum.rscnet.org/forumdisplay.php?s=690a4df5b3fb82bec81d85a620ec287e&f=542 It's a large and active forum. Bob

> You are the one who took the first swipe at me. So, kiss my arse. And there was me, thinking that I was giving you some constructive advice? Hardly anyone else in the sim community is having the same problems you are, and yet you slate GTR in the same breath that you state you have just built the pc. It is obvious that you have some sort of hardware or set-up problem. It is also obvious that there are no major issues with GTR. When you calm down, take a minute to look at the situation and work it all out for yourself.

> GTR, ... the > physics are far superior to GPL I wouldn't make that claim. The cars in GTR are still too spin prone, not as bad in version 1.0 (German version), but it's still not quite right in version 1.5. Getting good lap times with GTR seems too dependent on force feedback. The force feedback is good, as it diminishes as you approach the limits on the front tires, but with GPL, the force feedback isn't as important, and you can get good lap times without it (one joystick player has a GPLRank of -80). It's difficult to drift the cars in GTR, but easy to do in GPL and GTLegends. Trying to induce understeer by pegging the front tires inwards doesn't seem to work much at all in GTR, less than real life, while GPL maybe a bit more than real life, but I've never driven a 67 F1 car on the bias-ply tires with huge slip angles used in those days. In my opinion, as a simulation game, GPL has better physics, because you can run the cars closer to the limits and even exceed the limits a bit and still maintain control. Bottom line for me in a racing game, is being able to sense the limits instead of memorizing them. GTR takes care of the steering inputs with force feedback, but there's no real sense of what's going on with throttle inputs.

"I wouldn't make that claim. The cars in GTR are still too spin prone, not as bad in version 1.0 (German version), but it's still not quite right in version 1.5." My belief is that's a modern tires/setup issue. I don't have the problem. "with GPL, the force feedback isn't as important, and you can get good lap times without it (one joystick player has a GPLRank of -80). " And that's definitely a GPL physics problem. Replays of those alien laps show clearly the driver is slamming the steering side to side rapidly. In a real car (or in GTR), you can't do that without breaking one end or the other loose. "It's difficult to drift the cars in GTR, but easy to do in GPL and GTLegends." Definitely real, not a problem. Modern tires and downforce. "In my opinion, as a simulation game, GPL has better physics, because you can run the cars closer to the limits and even exceed the limits a bit and still maintain control." Also realistic. Carroll Smith quote: "The one thing that's changed is that the gap between I've got it and it's got me has narrowed considerably. If you like GPL's feel that's fine. But it isn't "better physics".

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> "In my opinion, as a simulation game, GPL has better physics, because > you can run the cars closer to the limits and even exceed the limits > a bit and still maintain control." > > Also realistic. Carroll Smith quote: "The one thing that's changed is > that the gap between I've got it and it's got me has narrowed > considerably. > > If you like GPL's feel that's fine. But it isn't "better physics".

Probably based on the 1.0 version of GTR, a professional race driver tried the game and made the comment that it was more realistic with some of the assists turned on. I assume this was in reference to the car being so spin prone. I don't know if the problem is tire, differential, or momentum modeling in GTR that is the issue, but the issue is that almost every low speed spin results in the car facing backwards, as opposed to real life where ending up sideways occurs just as much, if not more than backwards. In real life, you can take off spinning both tires, and it's reasonably easy to keep the car going forwards. Note that F1 cars have a much higher power to weight ratio, have no traction control at the start of a race, and it's not an issue for them. However, I haven't been able to duplicate this with GTR, probably an issue with the GTR differential model letting one tire spin and not both. There's a Top Gear video where Tiff drives a 4 year old Ferrari formula 1 car (a Ferrari F50 is also tested in this save vided), and even in his first time in the F1, he lost the rear and and recovered quite a few times in the video. He was able to drift the car fairly well at low speeds, at high speeds, the downforce is setup to make the cars more neutral (less oversteer reaction), because of all the power it takes to keep the cars moving at high speed with all the induced drag from the downforce.

"I don't know if the problem is tire, differential, or momentum modeling in GTR that is the issue, but the issue is that almost every low speed spin results in the car facing backwards, as opposed to real life where ending up sideways occurs just as much, if not more than backwards. " If you want controlled slides in GTR here's a way to do it (probably not the ultimate, but good ebough for demonstration purposes). Use Dunlops (the others will heat up and lose too much traction. Springs, shocks, and bars reasonably balanced. Max neg camber on front, small negative camber on rear. Hard compounds. Diff max power, min coast. Have a ball. You'll wind up sideways as well as backwards. Of course, it's not a fast setup. An underappreciated quality of excellent drivers is that they can drive fast setups that punish mistakes _right now_. It's especially true in NASCAR. One big reason the guys at the back of the pack are slow is that they can't drive a faster setup. "In real life, you can take off spinning both tires, and it's reasonably easy to keep the car going forwards. " You can make real pretty twin tire marks with the above setup. "There's a Top Gear video where Tiff drives a 4 year old Ferrari formula 1 car (a Ferrari F50 is also tested in this save vided), and even in his first time in the F1, he lost the rear and and recovered quite a few times in the video. He was able to drift the car fairly well at low speeds..." Tiff's lurid slides on Top Gear are a running theme (or a running joke?). It's especially a hoot when he's supposed to be driving fast on a track. Sideways ain't fast, just entertaining TV. I would imagine they mess around with setup, tire pressures, etc. to put on a show. If you enjoy GPL, fine. But to say it has better physics than GTR is silly. The relative responses to setup changes and control inputs are concrete proof. There's also logic. Do you not think the guys who did GTR are smart? Do you think they didn't bother to analyze GPLs physics for strengths and weaknesses and incorporate the former and reduce the latter? Do you think they didn't use increased CPU/video card processing power and technical information from GT race teams to do it better?

[email hidden] enlightened us with: > It worked on mysystem, with excellent framerates, but, after a month > of rFactor, the GTR demo left me unimpressed; I felt like a spectator. > Could be the dark, sunset settiing. It lacks RF's visceral, > you-are-there feel. However, I've heard GTL ups the ante- if you like > the old cars.Ahem, if you have enough machine for it... I love the damn game, bus SHeesh... Everything I have read and or found turned off, p4 2.4ghz machine (early via board) geforce6600gt, I get sub 20 fps with the 20 car fields (dips to 1 when scoreboard is shown some races and not the next...) BTW I am talking about now, when doing the offline CUP challenges. rFactor, I get over 50 fps stock settings upon install with almost as many cars, and nascar and GPL are everything turned up, 1024x768 no aa, I get over 60. I just dont get why it is such a gfx hog, nor why I cannot tune it down enough to make it drivable?

> Do you not think the guys who > did GTR are smart? Do you think they didn't bother to analyze GPLs > physics for strengths and weaknesses and incorporate the former and > reduce the latter? Do you think they didn't use increased CPU/video > card processing power and technical information from GT race teams to > do it better? In spite of all the development that went into GTR, the developers admitted that the German version 1.0 was too spin prone and addressed this in the later versions. My issue is not so much a physics issue, but a feedback issue. It's difficult to push the the throttle inputs to the limits on any simulation, because there are no forces to feel. The question is should the simulation compensate for the lack of feel by making the cars more forgiving? Ok, the assists are one way of doing this, but it's not quite the same. Regarding the physics of GTR, is why doesn't induced understeer (pegging the steering inwards to wash out the front end) work? Real racers use some amount of induced understeer in mostly two situations: under braking on a car that would otherwise be spin prone; on very high speed turns with non-downforce cars because generally the throttle is pegged just to maintain high speed against aerodynamic drag. In comparing GPL to GTR, I submit the video below as an example, a Greg Stewart hot lap at Rouen. You see induced understeer, counter steering and a lot of steering corrections made at a rate that seems to match reality. With GTR and other games, the steering inputs are done at a lower rate, mostly because the feedback just isn't there for those subtle but quick corrections. The force feedback in GTR and many other games is almost like a steering assist, which dampens out some of the subtle steering corrections a player needs to make. The physics in GTR may be better, but which game GPL or GTR, gives the player a more realistic experience? Personally, I'm decent, but not expert at either game. My GPL rank is -10, negative on all track, with an 8:15 at Nurburg Ring my relative best. My best lap time with GTR 1.4 at Spa is a 2:14.7 using a momo racing wheel and pedals, and 2:15.4 when using twin joysticks (no force feedback) and assists on. Dual view video (top is on board, bottom is chase) of Greg Stewart at Rouen: http://jeffareid.net/gpl/gplrngs.wmv

"It's difficult to push the the throttle inputs to the limits on any simulation, because there are no forces to feel. The question is should the simulation compensate for the lack of feel by making the cars more forgiving? " You may have isolated our differences there. I think GPL is more forgiving, but also has some truly bizarre behavior with regard to things like setups and (too) rapid control inputs. I'll take accurate physics instead and cope with the fact it's a computer simulation. I have dial up so a 30M file is out of the question, but I've seen plenty of GPL laps with "rapid inputs". They wouldn't work in a real car, and they don't work in GTR, which is why they're not used, not because of lack of feedback. Also, in a real race car, countersteering is a desperation move to save a car. It's dog slow on pavement. But it's used extensively in GPL hot laps I've seen.

> I have dial up so a 30M file is out of the question, but I've seen > plenty of GPL laps with "rapid inputs". They wouldn't work in a real > car, and they don't work in GTR, which is why they're not used, not > because of lack of feedback. Also, in a real race car, countersteering > is a desperation move to save a car. It's dog slow on pavement. But > it's used extensively in GPL hot laps I've seen. It depends on the car. Here's a link to a maniac in a Porsche at Nordschliefe (old Nurburg Ring), with inputs just as rapid and severe if not more as what I've seen in GPL, plenty of countersteering too. Maybe it's just the nature of rear engine low downforce cars. http://www.green-flag.com/pages/welcome.php?id=nurburgring&id2=videomenu

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> It depends on the car. Here's a link to a maniac in a Porsche at > Nordschliefe (old Nurburg Ring), with inputs just as rapid and severe > if not more as what I've seen in GPL, plenty of countersteering too. > Maybe it's just the nature of rear engine low downforce cars. > > http://www.green-flag.com/pages/welcome.php?id=nurburgring&id2=videomenu >

Thats 'Sideways Stephan' and he does it just for show on the RUF videos Fast porsche laps at the ring look slower as they're tidy eg: http://vanadium.prg.dtu.dk/~pmc/andersj/200209_GT3_745.WMV -- Robin

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> > It depends on the car. Here's a link to a maniac in a Porsche at > > Nordschliefe (old Nurburg Ring), with inputs just as rapid and severe > > if not more as what I've seen in GPL, plenty of countersteering too. > > Maybe it's just the nature of rear engine low downforce cars. > > > > http://www.green-flag.com/pages/welcome.php?id=nurburgring&id2=videomenu > > > > Thats 'Sideways Stephan' and he does it just for show on the RUF videos > > Fast porsche laps at the ring look slower as they're tidy > eg: > http://vanadium.prg.dtu.dk/~pmc/andersj/200209_GT3_745.WMV >

It doesn't depend on the car that much. Sideways is never fast. If the tires are at that slip angle, they ain't developing max cornering force, for sure. Seems like you've been looking at some bad examples; Tiff, "Sideways Steven". My final thoughts (I'm done here, but I'll read responses). If the GTR cars on radial slicks with downforce _weren't_ a lot less forgiving than GPL cars on narrow bias treaded tires with no downforce, _that_ would be highly unrealistic. The setups (basically go-carts) and driving style that leads to the fastest laps on GPL are not realistic ones. That is not true for GTR.

> > http://www.green-flag.com/pages/welcome.php?id=nurburgring&id2=videomenu >> Thats 'Sideways Stephan' and he does it just for show on the RUF videos That explains it. > Sideways is never fast. If the tires are at that slip angle, > they ain't developing max cornering force, for sure. If you look at actual lateral force versus slip angles there's not much, if any loss in laterforce at higher slip angles, except for the fact that tires get overheated. Avon is one company that publishes this data, and Todd Watson, who has been working on basic simulator physics, has done a lot of research on this consulting experts, and there's little loss of grip at higher slip angles, it's just the lateral force is not quite in the right direction. It also depends on tire contruction. IRL (Indy) cars have the smallest "working slip" angle of about 2 degrees. F1 and Cart cars are more like 2.5 to 3 degrees. Most non-downforce racing cars wihtout tire restrictions will use bias ply slicks, with a slip angle around 4 to 5 degrees. > If the GTR cars weren't a lot less forgiving than GPL cars Yes I agree with this, I feel that some aspects should be compromised to make up for the lack of feedback. Traction control is one way, and realistic, since it's used in FIA's F1 and GT1 classes. Champ cars don't use traction control, but looking at videos of events at Laguna Seca and Brands Hatch, there are a lot more incidents than in F1, maybe fun for the spectators, but not the drivers and teams.

Getting back on topic. I still haven't seen an explanation for why driver induced understeer barely works at all in GTR. If GTR's physics model is implemented so that lateral force is reduced at excessively high slip angles, then why doesn't pegging the steering wheel induce a large amount of understeer? Somethings up with the physics. I've tested this in real life on a Trans-Am (front weight bias car), and a Caterham (rear weight bias car), and it works well on both cars. In addition, I've seen posts about this method being used by many club and professional racers.