Advantage of Wheel/Pedals over joystick and pushbuttons

I've only been running F12001 for a little while now, but I find it far more challenging than any other racing sim I've ever played with. I guess it's cause I'm coming from the NFS world if anything. Anyway, I'm using a MS Sidewinder Pro joystick for steering, and the buttons for throttle and braking. I tried using a Ferrari FF wheel/pedal, but I found it less drivable, if anything. Here are my observances, please refine them with your experience: - Joystick steering is quite controllable, but I think the deadzone is potentially better with a wheel. To get good lap times, a good wheel is probably a must. - Buttons for brake and throttle prevent you from applying partial brake and throttle - a big issue when in chicanes or turns, and I think it prevents any reasonable throttled braking to balance the car in turns. - I find pedals to slow my reflexes - with a button I can instantly apply full brake, but with a pedal I have to slam the thing down, and I'm not quite that fast. Perhaps with practice anticipation will make it moot, but for now I find the pedals take a lot of effort. Should I have been driving left foot on the brake? Comments welcome, as a newbie tries to become a greenhorn. Dave

A wheel for steering gives you a ton more linearity and will be vastly superior to something as nonlinear as a gamepad or keyboard. You are also correct in that buttons are all on or all off and you do not get the gradations that a potentiometer (found in the pedals) will give you. Also, in driving sims, as they become more realistic, you can split the brake and gas axis and actually be braking and giving it the gas at the same time. This is immensly helpful in trail-braking situations. Just to clarify how much better a wheel and pedals would be the ONLY way to drive a sim competitively, just try to imagine driving your street car with a joystick or game pad. Unless you are paralyzed and have a very specific rig to do so, it would be hairy at best. David Geesaman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I've only been running F12001 for a little while now, but I find it > far more challenging than any other racing sim I've ever played with. I > guess it's cause I'm coming from the NFS world if anything. > Anyway, I'm using a MS Sidewinder Pro joystick for steering, and the > buttons for throttle and braking. I tried using a Ferrari FF wheel/pedal, > but I found it less drivable, if anything. Here are my observances,please

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> refine them with your experience: > - Joystick steering is quite controllable, but I think the deadzone is > potentially better with a wheel. To get good lap times, a good wheel is > probably a must. > - Buttons for brake and throttle prevent you from applying partial > brake and throttle - a big issue when in chicanes or turns, and I think it > prevents any reasonable throttled braking to balance the car in turns. > - I find pedals to slow my reflexes - with a button I can instantly > apply full brake, but with a pedal I have to slam the thing down, and I'm > not quite that fast. Perhaps with practice anticipation will make it

moot, > but for now I find the pedals take a lot of effort. Should I have been > driving left foot on the brake? > > Comments welcome, as a newbie tries to become a greenhorn. > > Dave

OT alert! :) BMW is developing a fly-by-wire (FBW) system that uses a joystick for steering and gas/brake. Luckily, there is a law that prevents FBW systems as the only method to operate a vehicle. I can't imagine driving a car with a joystick and probably won't be buying a BMW, especially with a joystick :) SimRacer wrote: > > Just to clarify how much better a wheel and pedals would be the ONLY way to > drive a sim competitively, just try to imagine driving your street car with > a joystick or game pad. Unless you are paralyzed and have a very specific > rig to do so, it would be hairy at best.-- Jason Monds http://www.proracingclub.com - Pro Racing Club! (GPL) http://www.scprc.com - Stock Car Division of the PRC. (N4, Fun Run Sims) (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

Jason Monds <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> OT alert! :) > > BMW is developing a fly-by-wire (FBW) system that uses a joystick for > steering and gas/brake. Luckily, there is a law that prevents FBW > systems as the only method to operate a vehicle. > > I can't imagine driving a car with a joystick and probably won't be > buying a BMW, especially with a joystick :)

I heard of a study in which they took a bunch of 16-year-olds, taught half to drive conventional wheel-and-pedal equipped cars, and the other half to drive with a joystick. They then put them through a series of assessments of driving ability, IIRC particularly emergency situations such as panic lane changes. The report found that those driving with joysticks did slightly better than the conventional group. If anyone's interested enough, I /think/ the report was in Automotive Engineering (the magazine of the SAE) a few months back, although I don't keep my copies long enough to check. Personally, though, I'd prefer to have my throttle/brake axis separated from my steering axis at least ;-) Jonny

"SimRacer" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:bfOR7.246094$[email hidden]: > A wheel for steering gives you a ton more linearity and will be vastly > superior to something as nonlinear as a gamepad or keyboard. Well, I'm using a joystick, which is linear for steering, right? I wouldn't dream of a keyboard or gamepad. > You are also correct in that buttons are all on or all off and you do > not get the gradations that a potentiometer (found in the pedals) will > give you. Also, in driving sims, as they become more realistic, you can > split the brake and gas axis and actually be braking and giving it the > gas at the same time. I have separate brake and throttle buttons, so that's split axis. And pedal sets, those are split axis also. So the only thing I'm missing the the pots. > This is immensly helpful in trail-braking > situations. I'm aware of the idea of adding a little throttle while braking in a corner to keep balance and weight on the steering end. Is this trail- braking, or is trail-braking a different idea? And until I get pot- controlled throttle and brake, should I abandon such techniques (I think the car physics are too accurate for blipping the throttle to work as a substitute). Thanks a bunch. I'm beginning to understand more already. Dave > > David Geesaman <[email hidden]> wrote in message >

Although this may be obvious, I think one of the biggest advantages is the fun factor! It is way more fun to play a driving game/sim with a wheel than with a joystick. Raymond ACT LABS www.act-labs.com On 12 Dec 2001 09:36:02 -0600, David Geesaman <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> I've only been running F12001 for a little while now, but I find it >far more challenging than any other racing sim I've ever played with. I >guess it's cause I'm coming from the NFS world if anything. > Anyway, I'm using a MS Sidewinder Pro joystick for steering, and the >buttons for throttle and braking. I tried using a Ferrari FF wheel/pedal, >but I found it less drivable, if anything. Here are my observances, please >refine them with your experience: > - Joystick steering is quite controllable, but I think the deadzone is >potentially better with a wheel. To get good lap times, a good wheel is >probably a must. > - Buttons for brake and throttle prevent you from applying partial >brake and throttle - a big issue when in chicanes or turns, and I think it >prevents any reasonable throttled braking to balance the car in turns. > - I find pedals to slow my reflexes - with a button I can instantly >apply full brake, but with a pedal I have to slam the thing down, and I'm >not quite that fast. Perhaps with practice anticipation will make it moot, >but for now I find the pedals take a lot of effort. Should I have been >driving left foot on the brake? > > Comments welcome, as a newbie tries to become a greenhorn. > > Dave

you are MOST humourous !!! Even as we type, Mercedes R&D is coming up with a drive-by-joystick car steering. Prototype of that WERE at car shows as early as 1980s. That idea is NOT as hare-brained as you thought. SimRacer <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bfOR7.246094$[email hidden] ... > A wheel for steering gives you a ton more linearityand will be vastly > Just to clarify how much better a wheel and pedalswould be the ONLY way to > drive a sim competitively, just try to imaginedriving your street car with > a joystick or game pad. Unless you are paralyzed andhave a very specific > rig to do so, it would be hairy at best. > >

dave I am using a joystick and has tried several wheels, ferrari TM included. You will still need to adjust to either device regardless. The wheel is NOT as intuitive as thought. I found that if you are good as joystick , you could beat a guy with wheel. Even though he is trail braking you, you could 4wheel drift him quite well. Only thing I like about the wheel is braking and accel DO NOT interfere with steering. With the joystick, in a heated moment you could brake with slight handshake and that affect the steering. Some of the top GPL online racers are JOYSTICKERS . David Geesaman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]. .. > "SimRacer" <[email hidden]> wrote in >news:bfOR7.246094$[email hidden] : > > > A wheel for steering gives you a ton more linearityand will be vastly > > superior to something as nonlinear as a gamepad orkeyboard. > > Well, I'm using a joystick, which is linear forsteering, right? I > wouldn't dream of a keyboard or gamepad. > > > You are also correct in that buttons are all on orall off and you do > > not get the gradations that a potentiometer (foundin the pedals) will > > give you. Also, in driving sims, as they becomemore realistic, you can > > split the brake and gas axis and actually bebraking and giving it the > > gas at the same time. > > I have separate brake and throttle buttons, sothat's split axis. And > pedal sets, those are split axis also. So the onlything I'm missing the > the pots. > > > This is immensly helpful in trail-braking > > situations. > > I'm aware of the idea of adding a little throttlewhile braking in a > corner to keep balance and weight on the steeringend. Is this trail- > braking, or is trail-braking a different idea? Anduntil I get pot- > controlled throttle and brake, should I abandon suchtechniques (I think > the car physics are too accurate for blipping thethrottle to work as a > substitute). > > > Thanks a bunch. I'm beginning to understand morealready. > > Dave > > > > > David Geesaman <[email hidden]> wrotein message > >

I find I always get the quickest laptimes when using a CH Flightstick with pedals--those joysticks seem to have zero deadspot, and being able to instantly go from full lock to straight ahead lets you drive cars with really loose setups. Joysticks also share space with a keyboard. However, sawing away at a force feedback wheel feels a lot more like driving a car than twitching a plastic stick, even if I can't turn in as fast laptimes...I think the time is approaching where the FF wheels will be precise and fast enough to where the extra tactile feedback will outweigh the additional free-play and friction incurred by using a motor instead of a spring. I think also steering wheel and pedals is more natural for novice players than joystick and pedals, plus it puts them in the sim mindset of driving a real car, not playing Out Run. My current proposal for advancing force feedback--do what MS and nVidia did to Direct3D8 with programmable vertex shaders to DirectInput--create a simple DSP-like byte code that could be compiled into microprograms that the wheels could run in hardware, so the wheels could do prediction code without having to USB back to the computer, wait for the next physics frame, USB back to the wheel and from there to the motor--I think you could achieve a really "tight" and responsive feel with this method and reduce or elliminate the spiking and self-oscillation problems that are currently endemic to any "non-canned" force feedback implementation, and a 30-cent CPU should be powerful enough to implement this. "Raymond, ACT LABS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Although this may be obvious, I think one of the biggest advantages is > the fun factor! It is way more fun to play a driving game/sim with a > wheel than with a joystick. > > Raymond > ACT LABS > www.act-labs.com > > > > > On 12 Dec 2001 09:36:02 -0600, David Geesaman > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > I've only been running F12001 for a little while now, but I find it > >far more challenging than any other racing sim I've ever played with. I > >guess it's cause I'm coming from the NFS world if anything. > > Anyway, I'm using a MS Sidewinder Pro joystick for steering, and the > >buttons for throttle and braking. I tried using a Ferrari FF

wheel/pedal, > >but I found it less drivable, if anything. Here are my observances,please > >refine them with your experience: > > - Joystick steering is quite controllable, but I think the deadzoneis > >potentially better with a wheel. To get good lap times, a good wheel is > >probably a must. > > - Buttons for brake and throttle prevent you from applying partial > >brake and throttle - a big issue when in chicanes or turns, and I thinkit > >prevents any reasonable throttled braking to balance the car in turns. > > - I find pedals to slow my reflexes - with a button I can instantly > >apply full brake, but with a pedal I have to slam the thing down, and I'm > >not quite that fast. Perhaps with practice anticipation will make itmoot,

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> >but for now I find the pedals take a lot of effort. Should I have been > >driving left foot on the brake? > > > > Comments welcome, as a newbie tries to become a greenhorn. > > > > Dave >