iRacing and real names?

From: https://members.iracing.com/membersite/termsofuse.jsp Here is the clause: 4.1. To establish an Account, you will be required to provide iRacing.com with certain personal information. Your failure to supply accurate information to iRacing.com when requested, or to update that information as it changes, may result in an interruption or cancellation of service. You agree that we may handle your personal information as described in our Privacy Policy. In particular (but without limitation), you acknowledge that, except in extraordinary circumstances as agreed to by iRacing in its sole discretion, YOUR REAL NAME (or a variation of your name, such as your name followed by a numeral) WILL BE DISPLAYED TO OTHER USERS OF THE SERVICE, AND YOU HEREBY CONSENT TO SUCH DISPLAY. THIS INCLUDES DISPLAY OF YOUR NAME WITH RESPECT TO ANY DISCIPLINARY ACTIONS TAKEN AGAINST YOU AS FURTHER DESCRIBED IN THE SPORTING CODE. The purpose of displaying members' real names is to create accountability to discourage members from engaging in disruptive activity. IF YOU ARE AUTHORIZING A MINOR CHILD TO USE THE SERVICE, YOU MUST NOT PROVIDE TO IRACING.COM ANY PERSONAL INFORMATION ABOUT SUCH CHILD. So similar to RSC, forum members are subject to display of your real name and disciplinary actions? This is the same issue I had with RSC. The issue is that these disciplinary actions would qualify as defamatory statements made against members, especially those using real names. Regardless of any implied agreement, in the USA, you can't waive your legal rights to be protected against defamation (libel or slander), since it's covered by criminal law (although it's usually handled via civil lawsuits). iRacing would be violating defamation laws if it couldn't back up any public disciplinary action with reasonable proof. In a criminal case or lawsuit, the burden of proof is upon the person or company that made the statement. However, nothing in the termsofuse requires a member to use a real name, and in the case of a minor, the real name isn't permitted to be used, since it would be revealing personal information about the minor.

"jeffareid" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:95P6m.5008$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (46 lines)

> From: > > https://members.iracing.com/membersite/termsofuse.jsp > > Here is the clause: > > 4.1. > To establish an Account, you will be required to provide iRacing.com with > certain personal information. Your failure to supply accurate information > to > iRacing.com when requested, or to update that information as it changes, > may > result in an interruption or cancellation of service. You agree that we > may > handle your personal information as described in our Privacy Policy. In > particular (but without limitation), you acknowledge that, except in > extraordinary circumstances as agreed to by iRacing in its sole > discretion, > YOUR REAL NAME (or a variation of your name, such as your name followed by > a > numeral) WILL BE DISPLAYED TO OTHER USERS OF THE SERVICE, AND YOU HEREBY > CONSENT TO SUCH DISPLAY. THIS INCLUDES DISPLAY OF YOUR NAME WITH RESPECT > TO ANY > DISCIPLINARY ACTIONS TAKEN AGAINST YOU AS FURTHER DESCRIBED IN THE > SPORTING > CODE. The purpose of displaying members' real names is to create > accountability > to discourage members from engaging in disruptive activity. IF YOU ARE > AUTHORIZING A MINOR CHILD TO USE THE SERVICE, YOU MUST NOT PROVIDE TO > IRACING.COM ANY PERSONAL INFORMATION ABOUT SUCH CHILD. > > So similar to RSC, forum members are subject to display of your real name > and disciplinary actions? This is the same issue I had with RSC. The issue > is that these disciplinary actions would qualify as defamatory statements > made against members, especially those using real names. Regardless of any > implied agreement, in the USA, you can't waive your legal rights to be > protected against defamation (libel or slander), since it's covered by > criminal law (although it's usually handled via civil lawsuits). iRacing > would be violating defamation laws if it couldn't back up any public > disciplinary action with reasonable proof. In a criminal case or lawsuit, > the burden of proof is upon the person or company that made the statement. > > However, nothing in the termsofuse requires a member to use a real name, > and in the case of a minor, the real name isn't permitted to be used, > since it would be revealing personal information about the minor. >

Don't be stupid. Libel/slander is when your reputation is reduced in the eyes of right thinking people. I can't see any way that a wrongly attributed public warning on RSC can damage you materially. Nor can I see a miscarriage of justice regarding iRacing's sporting code causing you problems. If you took any of this to a judge you would be laughed out of court. Now, stop being a girl and get on with your life!

> Libel/slander is when your reputation is reduced in the eyes of right > thinking people. That's not the legal definition, from wiki: "communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation > I can't see any way that a wrongly attributed public warning on RSC > can damage you materially. > Nor can I see a miscarriage of justice regarding iRacing's sporting > code causing you problems. Defamation doesn't require "material" damage, if you're implying that it's finiancially related. > If you took any of this to a judge you would be laughed out of court. Depends on how good a lawyer you have. Some lawyers are experts at turning molehills in to mountains when there's money to be made from a civil lawsuit. Note that the income for civil courts and their staffing depends on a steady flow of civil lawsuits.7 In both cases though (RSC or iRacing), a person could simply choose to use a persona instead of a real name. What is strange is that the wording of the terms of use mentions the usage of real names, but it never states that using a real name is a requirement for using the iRacing service. So I'm guessing that it's just a community standard to use real names as opposed to a requirement? Still for those members that do use their real names, or if they use personas that a reasonable number of people would associate with their real names, then laws regarding defamation would apply. If I were running a business, it's a risk I wouldn't be willing to take.

"jeffareid" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:OVP6m.2045$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (10 lines)

>> Libel/slander is when your reputation is reduced in the eyes of right >> thinking people. > > That's not the legal definition, from wiki: > > "communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or > implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, > group, government or nation a negative image" > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation

Look, being wrongly accused of breaking the iRacing sporting code isn't worth a day in court. Same with an RSC warning. These are minor issues. Niether will affect your reputation adversely. iRacing is a game and RSC is a games forum.

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> > >> I can't see any way that a wrongly attributed public warning on RSC >> can damage you materially. > >> Nor can I see a miscarriage of justice regarding iRacing's sporting >> code causing you problems. > > Defamation doesn't require "material" damage, if you're implying that > it's finiancially related. > >> If you took any of this to a judge you would be laughed out of court. > > Depends on how good a lawyer you have. Some lawyers are experts > at turning molehills in to mountains when there's money to be made > from a civil lawsuit. Note that the income for civil courts and > their staffing depends on a steady flow of civil lawsuits.7 > > In both cases though (RSC or iRacing), a person could simply choose > to use a persona instead of a real name. > > What is strange is that the wording of the terms of use mentions > the usage of real names, but it never states that using a real name > is a requirement for using the iRacing service. So I'm guessing that > it's just a community standard to use real names as opposed to > a requirement? Still for those members that do use their real > names, or if they use personas that a reasonable number of > people would associate with their real names, then laws regarding > defamation would apply. If I were running a business, it's a risk > I wouldn't be willing to take. > > > >

On Jul 13, 7:05 pm, "jeffareid" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> From: > > https://members.iracing.com/membersite/termsofuse.jsp > > Here is the clause: > > 4.1. > To establish an Account, you will be required to provide iRacing.com with > certain personal information. Your failure to supply accurate information to > iRacing.com when requested, or to update that information as it changes, may > result in an interruption or cancellation of service. You agree that we may > handle your personal information as described in our Privacy Policy. In > particular (but without limitation), you acknowledge that, except in > extraordinary circumstances as agreed to by iRacing in its sole discretion, > YOUR REAL NAME (or a variation of your name, such as your name followed by a > numeral) WILL BE DISPLAYED TO OTHER USERS OF THE SERVICE, AND YOU HEREBY > CONSENT TO SUCH DISPLAY. THIS INCLUDES DISPLAY OF YOUR NAME WITH RESPECT TO ANY > DISCIPLINARY ACTIONS TAKEN AGAINST YOU AS FURTHER DESCRIBED IN THE SPORTING > CODE. The purpose of displaying members' real names is to create accountability > to discourage members from engaging in disruptive activity. IF YOU ARE > AUTHORIZING A MINOR CHILD TO USE THE SERVICE, YOU MUST NOT PROVIDE TO > IRACING.COM ANY PERSONAL INFORMATION ABOUT SUCH CHILD. > > So similar to RSC, forum members are subject to display of your real name > and disciplinary actions? This is the same issue I had with RSC. The issue > is that these disciplinary actions would qualify as defamatory statements > made against members, especially those using real names. Regardless of any > implied agreement, in the USA, you can't waive your legal rights to be > protected against defamation (libel or slander), since it's covered by > criminal law (although it's usually handled via civil lawsuits). iRacing > would be violating defamation laws if it couldn't back up any public > disciplinary action with reasonable proof. In a criminal case or lawsuit, > the burden of proof is upon the person or company that made the statement.

Libel or slander applies only when the statement being made is false. > However, nothing in the termsofuse requires a member to use a real name, > and in the case of a minor, the real name isn't permitted to be used, > since it would be revealing personal information about the minor. Doesn't this do that? Your failure to supply accurate information to iRacing.com when requested, or to update that information as it changes, may result in an interruption or cancellation of service. You agree that we may handle your personal information as described in our Privacy Policy. In particular (but without limitation), you acknowledge that, except in extraordinary circumstances as agreed to by iRacing in its sole discretion, YOUR REAL NAME (or a variation of your name, such as your name followed by a numeral)

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... On Jul 13, 7:05 pm, "jeffareid" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (43 lines)

> From: > > https://members.iracing.com/membersite/termsofuse.jsp > > Here is the clause: > > 4.1. > To establish an Account, you will be required to provide iRacing.com with > certain personal information. Your failure to supply accurate information > to > iRacing.com when requested, or to update that information as it changes, > may > result in an interruption or cancellation of service. You agree that we > may > handle your personal information as described in our Privacy Policy. In > particular (but without limitation), you acknowledge that, except in > extraordinary circumstances as agreed to by iRacing in its sole > discretion, > YOUR REAL NAME (or a variation of your name, such as your name followed by > a > numeral) WILL BE DISPLAYED TO OTHER USERS OF THE SERVICE, AND YOU HEREBY > CONSENT TO SUCH DISPLAY. THIS INCLUDES DISPLAY OF YOUR NAME WITH RESPECT > TO ANY > DISCIPLINARY ACTIONS TAKEN AGAINST YOU AS FURTHER DESCRIBED IN THE > SPORTING > CODE. The purpose of displaying members' real names is to create > accountability > to discourage members from engaging in disruptive activity. IF YOU ARE > AUTHORIZING A MINOR CHILD TO USE THE SERVICE, YOU MUST NOT PROVIDE TO > IRACING.COM ANY PERSONAL INFORMATION ABOUT SUCH CHILD. > > So similar to RSC, forum members are subject to display of your real name > and disciplinary actions? This is the same issue I had with RSC. The issue > is that these disciplinary actions would qualify as defamatory statements > made against members, especially those using real names. Regardless of any > implied agreement, in the USA, you can't waive your legal rights to be > protected against defamation (libel or slander), since it's covered by > criminal law (although it's usually handled via civil lawsuits). iRacing > would be violating defamation laws if it couldn't back up any public > disciplinary action with reasonable proof. In a criminal case or lawsuit, > the burden of proof is upon the person or company that made the statement. >>Libel or slander applies only when the statement being made is false.

Well, obviously!

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> > Here is the clause: > > > > 4.1. > > To establish an Account, you will be required to provide iRacing.com with > > certain personal information. Your failure to supply accurate information to > > iRacing.com when requested, or to update that information as it changes, may > > result in an interruption or cancellation of service. You agree that we may > > handle your personal information as described in our Privacy Policy. In > > particular (but without limitation), you acknowledge that, except in > > extraordinary circumstances as agreed to by iRacing in its sole discretion, > > YOUR REAL NAME (or a variation of your name, such as your name followed by a > > numeral) WILL BE DISPLAYED TO OTHER USERS OF THE SERVICE, AND YOU HEREBY > > CONSENT TO SUCH DISPLAY. THIS INCLUDES DISPLAY OF YOUR NAME WITH RESPECT TO ANY > > DISCIPLINARY ACTIONS TAKEN AGAINST YOU AS FURTHER DESCRIBED IN THE SPORTING > > CODE. The purpose of displaying members' real names is to create accountability > > to discourage members from engaging in disruptive activity. IF YOU ARE > > AUTHORIZING A MINOR CHILD TO USE THE SERVICE, YOU MUST NOT PROVIDE TO > > IRACING.COM ANY PERSONAL INFORMATION ABOUT SUCH CHILD. > > However, nothing in the termsofuse requires a member to use a real name, > > and in the case of a minor, the real name isn't permitted to be used, > > since it would be revealing personal information about the minor. > Doesn't this do that? > "Your failure to supply accurate information to iRacing.com when" > "requested, or to update that information as it changes, may > "result in an interruption or cancellation of service."

No, because the application only asks for "certain personal information", and that the information be "accurate". A persona used for online racing is part of that personal information and is accurate. The application process never asks for a real name, just a valid paypal account or credit card, and neither of these require real names. If the intention of the terms of use was to require the usage of real names, then as currently worded, it doesn't accomplish this. I just considered the part about using real names to be a warning that I should consider using a persona instead. > Libel or slander applies only when the statement being made is false. Read the wiki article again, it's still defamation even if the statement is true. In most states of the USA, the outcome of a civil case normally depends on the communicator of the statement being able to prove the statement is true. Depending on the statement, the standard for level of proof can be quite high. "communication of a statement ... that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image." "It is usually, but not always, a requirement that this claim be false" It's a risk that most forums aren't willing to take. Most forums handle violations via private messages with the accused offender. Making such accusations public is defamation. The truth of those statements doesn't prevent a civil suit from being filed, and in some cases (depends on the state), even if the statement is substatntially true, if the harm caused is excessive, the plaintiff will prevail, or the defendant will at least end up paying for court costs.