Car physics; technical forum open

Hi all, Although RAS is a good place to discuss car physics, I wanted to let you know that there is a technical forum up, specifically for technical issues related to car simming, at the just-open Race Sim Central Forums: http://forum.racesimcentral.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=77 It's quiet there, as it's new, but may become a nice place of talking about this kind of stuff. The Racer forum is generally too much targeted at Racer alone, so this might be a nice place. I don't really have a preference yet to using RAS or this forum. Just a suggestion, Ruud van Gaal Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Nice one :) Ruud van Gaal wrote:

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> Hi all, > > Although RAS is a good place to discuss car physics, I wanted to let > you know that there is a technical forum up, specifically for > technical issues related to car simming, at the just-open Race Sim > Central Forums: > > http://forum.racesimcentral.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=77 > > It's quiet there, as it's new, but may become a nice place of talking > about this kind of stuff. > > The Racer forum is generally too much targeted at Racer alone, so this > might be a nice place. I don't really have a preference yet to using > RAS or this forum. > > Just a suggestion, > > Ruud van Gaal > Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/ > Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/ >

On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:37:54 +0000, Ashley McConnell <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> Nice one :) > > Ruud van Gaal wrote: > >> The Racer forum is generally too much targeted at Racer alone, so this >> might be a nice place. I don't really have a preference yet to using >> RAS or this forum. >>

I HATE forums, all of them. They suck. They try to re-invent USENET just to give you banner ad overflow. Please keep the discussion in here if possible, the volume of posts on RAS is low enough so that a bit of hard-core physics won't / can't hurt. Although I am a physicist (or was, at one stage in my career), I don't reply to technical posts, but read and follow them with great interest. Cheers & all the best, Uwe -- Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) Ever wondered what's wrong with the world? http://bnetwork.com/ PGP Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Uwe Schuerkamp <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:37:54 +0000, Ashley McConnell <[email hidden]> wrote: > > Nice one :) > > > > Ruud van Gaal wrote: > > >> The Racer forum is generally too much targeted at Racer alone, so this > >> might be a nice place. I don't really have a preference yet to using > >> RAS or this forum. > > I HATE forums, all of them. They suck. They try to re-invent > USENET just to give you banner ad overflow. Please keep the > discussion in here if possible, the volume of posts on RAS is > low enough so that a bit of hard-core physics won't / can't > hurt.

Seconded, though perhaps less strongly! ;-) I fail to see the need for forums, given Usenet. It works just fine for me, so I certainly won't be visiting any forums soon. Jonny

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> I HATE forums, all of them. They suck. They try to re-invent > USENET just to give you banner ad overflow. Please keep the > discussion in here if possible, the volume of posts on RAS is > low enough so that a bit of hard-core physics won't / can't > hurt. > > Although I am a physicist (or was, at one stage in my career), > I don't reply to technical posts, but read and follow them with > great interest. > Cheers & all the best, > Uwe

Hehe Uwe I disagree on that one... Forums are IMHO a much better place for discussions which stay open over longer periods of time. Here on RAS the posts disappear from many peoples newsproviders in way to short time. It is not that the hardcore physics is hurting anyone here.. it just gets lost in the fray, and that is why some of the same questions about e.g. the "pacejka constant" keep popping up here. We are trying to make a place specifically aimed at answering that type of questions. Matematics, Physics, Programming, and other files related in some way to simracing. The forum also gives a much better opportunity to provide diagrams, pictures and related files.... and it is searchable. I know the newsgroup vs. maillist vs. forum discussion is an old one, and that opinions differ, but please do drop by the new technical section and join the hopefully ressourcefull group of people there. Btw. we are working on a new hack that will make a poster in the RaceSimCentral technical forumsection able to post to RAS as well as to the forum if he so chooses. This means that RAS will not be robbed of the good physical/technical/mathematical discussions... you will still be able to read them right here. But at the same time the more "difficult" discussion topics will have a permanent home which will hopefully in time turn into a vault of knowledge. Mikkel http://www.racesimcentral.com

Being a webmaster of the forum in question - could you say anything else? ;-) -- ed_ "Mikkel Gram-Hansen" <wrote: > Hehe Uwe I disagree on that one... Forums are IMHO a much better place for > discussions which stay open over longer periods of time. Here on RAS the > posts disappear from many peoples newsproviders in way to short time.

Ed Solheim <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:SDp_7.22630$[email hidden]... > Being a webmaster of the forum in question - could you say anything else? > ;-) > -- > ed_ If pushed really hard I probably could.... in theory at least ;) My preference of a forum over a newsgroup has got nothing to do with that though !! Mikkel

"Mikkel Gram-Hansen" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:a1d6do$2070$[email hidden]:

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>> I HATE forums, all of them. They suck. They try to re-invent >> USENET just to give you banner ad overflow. Please keep the >> discussion in here if possible, the volume of posts on RAS is >> low enough so that a bit of hard-core physics won't / can't hurt. >> >> Although I am a physicist (or was, at one stage in my career), >> I don't reply to technical posts, but read and follow them with >> great interest. >> Cheers & all the best, >> Uwe > > > Hehe Uwe I disagree on that one... Forums are IMHO a much better place > for discussions which stay open over longer periods of time. Here on > RAS the posts disappear from many peoples newsproviders in way to short > time. > > It is not that the hardcore physics is hurting anyone here.. it just > gets lost in the fray, and that is why some of the same questions about > e.g. the "pacejka constant" keep popping up here. We are trying to make > a place specifically aimed at answering that type of questions. > Matematics, Physics, Programming, and other files related in some way > to simracing. > > The forum also gives a much better opportunity to provide diagrams, > pictures and related files.... and it is searchable. > > I know the newsgroup vs. maillist vs. forum discussion is an old one, > and that opinions differ, but please do drop by the new technical > section and join the hopefully ressourcefull group of people there. > > Btw. we are working on a new hack that will make a poster in the > RaceSimCentral technical forumsection able to post to RAS as well as to > the forum if he so chooses. This means that RAS will not be robbed of > the good physical/technical/mathematical discussions... you will still > be able to read them right here. But at the same time the more > "difficult" discussion topics will have a permanent home which will > hopefully in time turn into a vault of knowledge. > > Mikkel > http://www.racesimcentral.com > >

Probably many may not realize, but USENET and nntp servers is not the same thing. One may host newsgroups on his server (through nntp protocol), without being a part of the USENET. These newsgroups won't be added to the lists and won't be propagated by any other news servers, however everybody will be able to point their favourite newsreader to that server and participate in the discussions. In this case the host of the server will decide if any articles will expire and when. So far I am yet to see any web based forum that can be compared to even such poor newsreader implementations as Microsoft outlook. Why? - no filtering - no scoring - poor thread support - no download from the checkpoint One also may notice that most of the companies host discussion groups using nntp servers (for example Microsoft, Sybase, Opera) which in no way contradicts to putting files, various guides etc on their websites. I wish more web/news masters would combine benefits of several protocols (hhtp,ftp,nntp) and use them as they were intended by their developers. They would also save server resources as well as money paid for the bandwidth. Alex.

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> So far I am yet to see any web based forum that can be > compared to even such poor newsreader implementations as > Microsoft outlook. > Why? > - no filtering > - no scoring > - poor thread support > - no download from the checkpoint >

We use vBulletin which supports filtering through the ignore user list and buddy list and has thread ratings. Not sure what you mean by poor thread support and of course the software doesn't allow you to download the forum. The main advantage of web based forums is the ability to upload files. Personally I see a place for both newsgroups and forums. I was posting here at RAS for more than a year before I discovered Legends Central and have posted at both since then. Phil Lee -- Race Sim Central Administrator http://www.racesimcentral.com

[email hidden] (Mikkel Gram-Hansen) wrote in <a1d6do$2070$[email hidden]>: >Btw. we are working on a new hack that will make a poster in the >RaceSimCentral technical forumsection able to post to RAS as well as to the >forum if he so chooses. That's a good idea, but I lean towards the anti forum crowd. Technical physics discussions aside, I'd rather have one central place to exchange information, whereas with forums it's fragmented all over the net. RAS is the only place I check regularly. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C. GPLRank -15.39 MonsterRank 89.11 Come see how you rank, at the GPLRank site http://newgplrank.schuerkamp.de/

On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Don Scurlock wrote:

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> [email hidden] (Mikkel Gram-Hansen) wrote in > >Btw. we are working on a new hack that will make a poster in the > >RaceSimCentral technical forumsection able to post to RAS as well as to the > >forum if he so chooses. > > That's a good idea, but I lean towards the anti forum crowd. Technical physics > discussions aside, I'd rather have one central place to exchange information, > whereas with forums it's fragmented all over the net. RAS is the only place I > check regularly.

I'm with the anti-forum crowd -- will keep reading RAS and comment on things that are interesting, but I'm not likely to go to a forum. One place to exchange info is enough, imo. I hope that interesting threads from the forum are cc'd over to RAS in some way. And of course it would be great if someone would collect the physics threads on RAS and keep them somewhere nice and safe (and searchable). -- Doug Milliken <http://www.millikenresearch.com>

Doug Milliken <[email hidden]> writes: > way. And of course it would be great if someone would collect the physics > threads on RAS and keep them somewhere nice and safe (and searchable). http://groups.google.com/ -- -asbjxrn

"Phil Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:lmr_7.7524$[email hidden]:

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>> So far I am yet to see any web based forum that can be >> compared to even such poor newsreader implementations as >> Microsoft outlook. >> Why? >> - no filtering >> - no scoring >> - poor thread support >> - no download from the checkpoint >> > > We use vBulletin which supports filtering through the ignore user list > and buddy list and has thread ratings. Not sure what you mean by poor > thread support and of course the software doesn't allow you to download > the forum. The main advantage of web based forums is the ability to > upload files.

For example I have filter set to ignore Nascar posts (one that contain nascar, N4 or n3 in a subject) and several "annoying" posters. If I see thread I don't want to follow I set to "ignore it". I give GPL posts higher score (+1000) so I see them at the top. Of course read posts are marked and I don't have to go through them again. Also I use "hide read threads" options. As a result I am able to read posts that are intersting for me just by hitting 'space'. I can interrupt reading at any point and continue later from the place I stopped at. I use web forum (yes, yes, your forum ;>) because it's the best one for GPL, but I am definitely spending more time navigating through the web based interface than I would like to. While RAS is non-binary group, you can accept attachment or allow uploads on your site with the links from the posts if you hosts news server yourself. Alex.

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> > Personally I see a place for both newsgroups and forums. I was posting > here at RAS for more than a year before I discovered Legends Central > and have posted at both since then. > > Phil Lee > -- > Race Sim Central Administrator > http://www.racesimcentral.com > > >

"UseNet" is dead.....mostly because of the "nazi-like" prohibitionists to HTML and graphics. You guys created your own "end." This is "2002" .....not "1982." Get a real computer and go to the Forums....you'll see where the rest of the Internet has gone. TP "Uwe Schuerkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:37:54 +0000, Ashley McConnell<[email hidden]> wrote:

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> > Nice one :) > > > > Ruud van Gaal wrote: > > > > >> The Racer forum is generally too much targeted at Racer alone, so this > >> might be a nice place. I don't really have a preference yet to using > >> RAS or this forum. > >> > > I HATE forums, all of them. They suck. They try to re-invent > USENET just to give you banner ad overflow. Please keep the > discussion in here if possible, the volume of posts on RAS is > low enough so that a bit of hard-core physics won't / can't > hurt. > > Although I am a physicist (or was, at one stage in my career), > I don't reply to technical posts, but read and follow them with > great interest. > > Cheers & all the best, > > Uwe > > > -- > Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ > Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) > Ever wondered what's wrong with the world? http://bnetwork.com/ > PGP Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Doug Milliken <[email hidden]> writes: > I'm with the anti-forum crowd -- will keep reading RAS and comment on > things that are interesting, but I'm not likely to go to a forum. One > place to exchange info is enough, imo. The single place of exchange is the main reason I prefer usenet also. As soon as you want to follow more than a few web forums, the fact that you have to check multiple web pages is a huge disadvantage compared to usenet browsing. All the other disadvantages like not being able to use the client of your own choice just makes things worse. _ Mats Lofkvist [email hidden]

I never knew how many people felt so strongly about this (usenet/forums). I thought that a new forum what take us (Car Physics / Sim Writers) "out of the hair" of everyone else in R.A.S. I feel a little more awkward asking off topic physics questions in here than I would in a purpose built forum. Although I like the idea of google archiving it forever. All the best, Ash Tom Pabst wrote:

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> "UseNet" is dead.....mostly because of the "nazi-like" prohibitionists to > HTML and graphics. You guys created your own "end." This is "2002" > .....not "1982." Get a real computer and go to the Forums....you'll see > where the rest of the Internet has gone. > > TP > >

"Tom Pabst" wrote... > "UseNet" is dead.....mostly because of the "nazi-like" > prohibitionists to HTML and graphics. You guys created > your own "end." This is "2002" .....not "1982." Get a > real computer and go to the Forums....you'll see where > the rest of the Internet has gone. Yadda, yadda, yadda.... show me a clearly arranged one and I might. Rules are rules, I didn't make them and I don't particularly object to them... they keep things uncluttered. Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

'Rules are rules, I didn't make them and I don't particularly object to them... they keep things uncluttered.' As does a good moderator at a forum Jan... Ian www.simbin.com "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "Tom Pabst" wrote... > > "UseNet" is dead.....mostly because of the "nazi-like" > > prohibitionists to HTML and graphics. You guys created > > your own "end." This is "2002" .....not "1982." Get a > > real computer and go to the Forums....you'll see where > > the rest of the Internet has gone. > > Yadda, yadda, yadda.... show me a clearly arranged one and I might. > > Rules are rules, I didn't make them and I don't particularly object to > them... they keep things uncluttered. > > Jan. > =--- > "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. > > >

"Ian Bell" wrote... > 'Rules are rules, I didn't make them and I don't particularly object to > them... they keep things uncluttered.' > > As does a good moderator at a forum Jan... Don't change the subject on me Ian... It's not renegade posters which "ruin" forums for me. I just went down to your site and read your F1 2001 review on the forum. Nice, nothing that couldn't have been acclomplished by really putting it up as a web page and linking to it from a message, of course, but nice. At the bottom it says "8 replies since dec 18th, but if I click on "next newest" I get taken to another topic (your comment on the West's garden fence) instead of replies to your review. Which is convenient for me as it shows what drives me up the wall concerning forums... All the content is displayed up front WITHOUT ORDER. It is left up to the reader to figure out at what level in the thread or to whom the poster is responding. Cluttered. If that's your idea of order, I don't want to see your clutter. This one is just about passable... note the structure to the posts. http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/15004 Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

That link looks like coloured BBS to me Jan. Maybe you're developing a little BBS-centricity? ;-) Why would you click on next newest anyway? It's the one and only ambiguous link on the page. If you want to read replies to the Review, use your scroll button and look below the review on the same page. All the headers are indexed in a list, subject areas are delineated and separate. You can find just what you want almost instantly - at least I can. I find it takes more time to find info in RAS due to the 'blanket' nature of the postings. How can you say that chronologically listed, subject/sim specific and titled content is without order? But then it's horses for courses. I prefer a little colour, the ability to post an image to reinforce or describe or preview my message/link. I also like an email which notifies me of a response to a thread which I've subscribed to. I remember when I dumped my trusty C64 and booted my shiny new Amiga, just how much I missed the chunky C64 screen images and text... "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "Ian Bell" wrote... > > 'Rules are rules, I didn't make them and I don't particularly object to > > them... they keep things uncluttered.' > > > > As does a good moderator at a forum Jan... > > Don't change the subject on me Ian... It's not renegade posters which

"ruin" > forums for me. > > I just went down to your site and read your F1 2001 review on the forum. > Nice, nothing that couldn't have been acclomplished by really putting itup > as a web page and linking to it from a message, of course, but nice. Atthe > bottom it says "8 replies since dec 18th, but if I click on "next newest"I > get taken to another topic (your comment on the West's garden fence)instead > of replies to your review. Which is convenient for me as it shows what > drives me up the wall concerning forums... All the content is displayed up > front WITHOUT ORDER. It is left up to the reader to figure out at whatlevel > in the thread or to whom the poster is responding. Cluttered. If that'syour

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> idea of order, I don't want to see your clutter. > > This one is just about passable... note the structure to the posts. > > http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/15004 > > Jan. > =--- > "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. > > >

PS, just in case you think I've lost it, it says 0 replies, not 8, which, I believe, eliminates the thrust of you argument. :-) Ian www.simbin.com

Mikkel Gram-Hansen wrote: > > > I HATE forums, all of them. They suck. They try to re-invent > > USENET just to give you banner ad overflow. < Snip > > Hehe Uwe I disagree on that one... Forums are IMHO a much better place for > discussions which stay open over longer periods of time. Here on RAS the > posts disappear from many peoples newsproviders in way to short time. < Snip > > Mikkel > http://www.racesimcentral.com I'm also anti web-foums. For me it's not an issue of where they are, the point is that they are, in my view, an inferior tool for the exchange of ideas. I posted this in The Pits TPTCC forum, I'm editing it for this discussion. This is why I dislike web forums: 1. Thread organization: In a newsgroup, like RAS, each thread is a single line, until you expand it. This makes it easy to scan large amounts of topics. When expanded, each posting is positioned, and has indentation, to show who is responding to which post. How do I organize threads in a web forum like this? 2. Expression: I've indented these points because that's how I want to present these issues. If you read this in a web forum, the indentation will be gone. How do I present my points in the format I want in a web forum? 3. Spelling: I'm the world's worst speller. Is there a spelling facility on a button I'm not seeing? How do I spell check in a web forum? 4. Searching: I can search for a word in the subject line, or for the name of a sender when reading newsgroups with netscape. How do I perform these kind of searches in a web forum? There is an alternative that webmasters who care to give their users the best tools can use: The InterNetNews package (INN) is a complete Usenet system. It includes innd, an NNTP server, and nnrpd, a newsreading server. This can drop in where an inferior web-forum is used. A web master can configure this to collect posts forever, it doesn't need to be used in conjunction with a news feed, it's just better. What does a web forum offer that makes it superior to a news server like INN? Larry

On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 03:11:56 GMT, Doug Milliken <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Don Scurlock wrote: > >> [email hidden] (Mikkel Gram-Hansen) wrote in >> >Btw. we are working on a new hack that will make a poster in the >> >RaceSimCentral technical forumsection able to post to RAS as well as to the >> >forum if he so chooses. >> >> That's a good idea, but I lean towards the anti forum crowd.

... >I'm with the anti-forum crowd -- will keep reading RAS and comment on >things that are interesting, but I'm not likely to go to a forum. One >place to exchange info is enough, imo. I see forums vs. usenet gives quite a thread. I like the CC to RAS idea that Mikkel proposed. I would be using that, and keep RAS as a central place where it can be found/archived using deja (google). The main thing is not to miss anything interesting ofcourse. :) Ruud van Gaal Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes: > "UseNet" is dead.....mostly because of the "nazi-like" prohibitionists to > HTML and graphics. You guys created your own "end." This is "2002" > .....not "1982." Get a real computer and go to the Forums....you'll see > where the rest of the Internet has gone. > > TP So why are you here if it's dead? I have been reading various usenet groups since the early eighties, and it still seems very much alive and kicking as far as I can see. Usenet may seem primitive compared to the fancy graphics in web forums, but anyone trying to follow more than a few web forums regularly should be able to figure out why usenet is superior. _ Mats Lofkvist GPLrank -25 (and proud of it, Tom) [email hidden]

On 08 Jan 2002 14:55:59 +0100, Mats Lofkvist <[email hidden]> wrote: > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes: > >> .....not "1982." Get a real computer and go to the Forums....you'll see >> where the rest of the Internet has gone. well, off you go then, me lad! Bye! ;-> -- Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) Ever wondered what's wrong with the world? http://bnetwork.com/ PGP Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:HPy_7.5239$[email hidden]... > "UseNet" is dead.....mostly because of the "nazi-like" prohibitionists to > HTML and graphics. You guys created your own "end." This is "2002" > .....not "1982." Get a real computer and go to the Forums....you'll see > where the rest of the Internet has gone. I stick to my belief that a mouse is generally a very clumsy user interface, compared to any half-decent text interface. (Exceptions apply for actual graphical work like CAD, FEA and image manipulation; any form of discussion based on language is not inherently graphical.) I'm now using Unix at work and happily doing file management on the command line; when I replace this PC and install Linux, I'll most likely go back to Pine for my mail and news. I'm waiting for the next PC so that I've got a second one to download stuff while I configuring Linux... ;-) Jonny

"Jonny Hodgson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:UBI_7.13585 > I stick to my belief that a mouse is generally a very clumsy > user interface, compared to any half-decent text interface. > (Exceptions apply for actual graphical work like CAD, FEA > and image manipulation; any form of discussion based on > language is not inherently graphical.) I'm a devoted Windows user, but if they ever remove the command line (aka DOS window) I will find another OS. Some things are just faster in a command prompt. Try deleting all files with the extension .TMP from an Explorer window and then from a DOS prompt. One of the things I always hated about the Mac (way back when I used one) was the absence of a command line.

[email hidden] (Ashley McConnell) wrote in <[email hidden]>: >I never knew how many people felt so strongly about this (usenet/forums). >I thought that a new forum what take us (Car Physics / Sim Writers) "out >of the hair" of everyone else in R.A.S. I feel a little more awkward >asking off topic physics questions in here than I would in a purpose >built forum. Although I like the idea of google archiving it forever. On the contrary Ashley. What could be more on topic than car physics and sim writing? It's educational as well as fasinating to learn a bit about what actually makes the games we play work. I'd consider it a big loss if that stuff wasn't here. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C. GPLRank -15.39 MonsterRank 89.11 Come see how you rank, at the GPLRank site http://newgplrank.schuerkamp.de/

"Don Scurlock" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> [email hidden] (Ashley McConnell) wrote in > <[email hidden]>: > > >I never knew how many people felt so strongly about this (usenet/forums). > >I thought that a new forum what take us (Car Physics / Sim Writers) "out > >of the hair" of everyone else in R.A.S. I feel a little more awkward > >asking off topic physics questions in here than I would in a purpose > >built forum. Although I like the idea of google archiving it forever. > > On the contrary Ashley. What could be more on topic than car physics and

sim > writing? It's educational as well as fasinating to learn a bit about what > actually makes the games we play work. I'd consider it a big loss if thatstuff > wasn't here. Yeah me too. I don't normally read too far into some of the posts, as they assume a lot of context I just don't have, but I still like to see you guys here. Some of the stuff sticks in my brain, and maybe some day long in the future I'll use my physics and comp sci degrees for the ultimate good: a sim to beat all sims. ... Or not, it's SO much easier to just buy somebody else's work. Anyway, I'd really hate for this newsgroup to be reduced completely to a "Nascar sucks!" "No it doesn't!" forum.

"Ian Bell" wrote... > That link looks like coloured BBS to me Jan. Maybe you're > developing a little BBS-centricity? ;-) You're right: at the ripe age of 31, I'm a grumpy old fart... a traditionalist, completely behind the times and ridiculed by the Windows generation.<g> Seriously, the flow of the conversation is more evident there as when all messages are presented on the same level with alternating background colours. If it ain't broke, why smash it? > Why would you click on next newest anyway? It's the one and only > ambiguous link on the page. Because it was the only thing I could click which might take me to more content. > If you want to read replies to the Review, use your scroll button > and look below the review on the same page. I dislike scroll button mouses perhaps even more than I dislike forums. This stems from using a PCB design program which has short cuts mapped to certain mousebutton combinations (3-button mouse)... it's a nightmare on anything other than a Logitech Pilot (old model) as with a scroll button mouse the middle button sticks up. Scrollbars are included in every browser and I find 'm easy enough to use. > All the headers are indexed in a list, subject areas are delineated > and separate. You can find just what you want almost instantly - at > least I can. > I find it takes more time to find info in RAS due to the 'blanket' > nature of the postings. It's easy to cut through the noise on RAS (noise being a relative term), but it takes a little getting used to, I'll give you that. I have no trouble finding interesting stuff on forums either... if it's really good someone will post a link here. ;-) > How can you say that chronologically listed, subject/sim specific > and titled content is without order? Because I can't, at a glance, tell if anyone knowledgable/worth reading has replied to a certain topic. Furthermore, as of the 3rd or 4th reply to a topic it's anyone's guess which level of the thread a poster is responding too. Also, when I go to read a topic I lose my oversight on the forum. In a newsreader messages pop up and, should I need to refer to another, I can just minimize it and find the headers/thread hierarchy are still there "behind" it. Add to this the various filtering and search facilities offered through the newsreader and I much prefer usenet to Forums for general news. I do see the benifit for Leagues and to specific groups of people (e.g. GPLEA editors forum), but that's about it. > But then it's horses for courses. I prefer a little colour, the > ability to post an image to reinforce or describe or preview my > message/link. I also like an email which notifies me of a > response to a thread which I've subscribed to. Fair enough. Call me what you like but these features leave me utterly indifferent. > I remember when I dumped my trusty C64 and booted my shiny new > Amiga, just how much I missed the chunky C64 screen images and > text... I've, to date, not missed anything about the C64, or the Amiga for that matter. Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

"Ian Bell" wrote... > PS, just in case you think I've lost it, it says 0 > replies, not 8, which, I believe, eliminates the > thrust of you argument. :-) That's another thing... illegible fonts and black text on coloured backgrounds.... yuk!! ;-)) Jan. =--- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

> That's another thing... illegible fonts and black text on coloured > backgrounds.... yuk!! ;-)) LOL You've got me there Jan ;-) "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "Ian Bell" wrote... > > PS, just in case you think I've lost it, it says 0 > > replies, not 8, which, I believe, eliminates the > > thrust of you argument. :-) > > That's another thing... illegible fonts and black text on coloured > backgrounds.... yuk!! ;-)) > > Jan. > =--- > "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. > > >

"Ian Bell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VHJ_7.16359$[email hidden]... > > That's another thing... illegible fonts and black text on coloured > > backgrounds.... yuk!! ;-)) > > LOL You've got me there Jan ;-) This would have been a great thread to post using HTML, with a black background and flashing blue letters <g> No wait! A "balloon picture" background with alternating yellow and red letters! (Anybody who thinks I'm kidding should occasionally peruse the "daily sucker" section of www.webpagesthatsuck.com)

> Why would you click on next newest anyway? It's the one and only > ambiguous link on the page. 'Because it was the only thing I could click which might take me to more content.' Look at the top of the pageon the left. There's a pretty little nested cluster of links thus: SimBin Forums > General > Articles/Site Feedback > GPL is dead, Long Live the new GPL. Each one clickable and underlined to denote a hyperlink with the exception of the last. Granted it's not at the bottom but with your lack of scroll button... ;-) What is there, is a drop down box entitled forum jump which takes you to any forum on the site. I will concede though that the '0 replies since Dec. 18 2001,17:11' is difficult to read at my 1280X960 res on a 19" Monitor. I will make it bigger. 'Because I can't, at a glance, tell if anyone knowledgable/worth reading has replied to a certain topic.' Each Topic has a 'Latest Reply' notification with the name of the person who replied (clickable so you can check their credentials) but of course, you know that everyone on our forums is knowledgable?? :-) In addition, if you register and provide an email, you can choose to track any topic and will receive an email stating who replied, when and to which subject. 'Add to this the various filtering and search facilities offered through the newsreader and I much prefer usenet to Forums for general news.' Have you actually checked our search function Jan? It's immensely powerful and goes as far as to store a cache of previous searches. It then reminds you when you last searched and with what keywords when you begin another. Don't get me wrong, I like RAS a lot, I just don't see why it must always be an either/or. Cheers Ian www.simbin.com "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "Ian Bell" wrote... > > That link looks like coloured BBS to me Jan. Maybe you're > > developing a little BBS-centricity? ;-) > > You're right: at the ripe age of 31, I'm a grumpy old fart... a > traditionalist, completely behind the times and ridiculed by the Windows > generation.<g> > > Seriously, the flow of the conversation is more evident there as when all > messages are presented on the same level with alternating background > colours. If it ain't broke, why smash it? > > > Why would you click on next newest anyway? It's the one and only > > ambiguous link on the page. > > Because it was the only thing I could click which might take me to more > content. > > > If you want to read replies to the Review, use your scroll button > > and look below the review on the same page. > > I dislike scroll button mouses perhaps even more than I dislike forums.

This > stems from using a PCB design program which has short cuts mapped tocertain

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> mousebutton combinations (3-button mouse)... it's a nightmare on anything > other than a Logitech Pilot (old model) as with a scroll button mouse the > middle button sticks up. > > Scrollbars are included in every browser and I find 'm easy enough to use. > > > All the headers are indexed in a list, subject areas are delineated > > and separate. You can find just what you want almost instantly - at > > least I can. > > I find it takes more time to find info in RAS due to the 'blanket' > > nature of the postings. > > It's easy to cut through the noise on RAS (noise being a relative term),

but

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> it takes a little getting used to, I'll give you that. I have no trouble > finding interesting stuff on forums either... if it's really good someone > will post a link here. ;-) > > > How can you say that chronologically listed, subject/sim specific > > and titled content is without order? > > Because I can't, at a glance, tell if anyone knowledgable/worth reading

has > replied to a certain topic. Furthermore, as of the 3rd or 4th reply to a > topic it's anyone's guess which level of the thread a poster is responding > too. Also, when I go to read a topic I lose my oversight on the forum. Ina > newsreader messages pop up and, should I need to refer to another, I can > just minimize it and find the headers/thread hierarchy are still there > "behind" it. > > Add to this the various filtering and search facilities offered throughthe > newsreader and I much prefer usenet to Forums for general news. I do seethe

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> benifit for Leagues and to specific groups of people (e.g. GPLEA editors > forum), but that's about it. > > > But then it's horses for courses. I prefer a little colour, the > > ability to post an image to reinforce or describe or preview my > > message/link. I also like an email which notifies me of a > > response to a thread which I've subscribed to. > > Fair enough. Call me what you like but these features leave me utterly > indifferent. > > > I remember when I dumped my trusty C64 and booted my shiny new > > Amiga, just how much I missed the chunky C64 screen images and > > text... > > I've, to date, not missed anything about the C64, or the Amiga for that > matter. > > Jan. > =--- > "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. > >

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> "Ian Bell" wrote... >> PS, just in case you think I've lost it, it says 0 >> replies, not 8, which, I believe, eliminates the >> thrust of you argument. :-) > > That's another thing... illegible fonts and black text on coloured > backgrounds.... yuk!! ;-))

If you use Opera you can resolve it by switching to "user representation", so web page authors can't make you read red on red. Unfortunately, other problems of web forums it is not easily fixable (if fixable at all) Alex.

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> > Jan. >=--- > "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. > > >

"Ian Bell" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:iyB_7.11712$[email hidden]: <snip> > How can you say that chronologically listed, subject/sim specific and > titled content is without order?In reality USENET threads are trees in terms of data structure, while web forums use actual threads. The problem is that discussions are usually have tree structure and therefore are not represented well by the threads which are very particular case of the tree. > But then it's horses for courses. I prefer a little colour, the abilityAFAI can see I have little colour in my news reader and every poster has its own colour in which he "speaks". I Can't say that I've seen it in web forums (I admit the only forum I visit regularly is LC GPL forum) > to post an image to reinforce or describe or preview my message/link. IWhat's wrong in posting image and message with the link to it? > also like an email which notifies me of a response to a thread which > I've subscribed to.This is purely the fix for the web forums. News reader is perfectly capable of doing that without usage of email. They also will be happy to issue notification when somebody decides to share his views on how to take T1-T2 in Mexico in his posts if that's what you are interested in. Alex.

"Rob Adams" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:_LI_7.726$Qq1.6670@shaw-ty2:

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> "Jonny Hodgson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:UBI_7.13585 >> I stick to my belief that a mouse is generally a very clumsy >> user interface, compared to any half-decent text interface. >> (Exceptions apply for actual graphical work like CAD, FEA >> and image manipulation; any form of discussion based on >> language is not inherently graphical.) > > I'm a devoted Windows user, but if they ever remove the command line > (aka DOS window) I will find another OS. Some things are just faster in > a command prompt. Try deleting all files with the extension .TMP from > an Explorer window and then from a DOS prompt.

If you have succeeded at this task and still not sure what is better try to the replace spaces in all names of files and directories with underscores :) Alex.

Jan Verschueren wrote: > > This one is just about passable... note the structure to the posts. > > http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/15004 This is the minimum I need to be efficient in reviewing them. I waste time sorting through forums where our games are discussed only when I'm rebuilding ;) I need the threading and authors because in some forums I frequent if I see a question I could answer but see someone posting in the thread who should be able to answer it I can skip the thread. Usenet is also superior because of spam. We all have evolved ways of dealing with off topic stuff such that we can sort past it very quickly. If I have to sit and wait for several seconds on my T3 line while the forum loads a huge thread (and probably a lot of advertising banners) then I lose interest quickly when I see that the new page is filled with threads about nothing important. The chance I'll hit the next page three more times to page past all the new threads is pretty small. The point is I had to wait a long time just to be annoyed ;) Some web pages don't work with my browser. They go in cycles. Every 3 or 4 weeks I go a week without access unless I stop browser 1 and start up browser 2. I don't waste that much time very often either. - Matt

On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 02:33:43 GMT, Matthew V. Jessick <[email hidden]> wrote: > several seconds on my T3 line while the forum loads > a huge thread (and probably a lot of advertising banners) good point. At home I use a pure ascii-based newsreader (slrn) which is lean and fast, supports, scoring, killfiles, threading and whatnot. Mapping all that functionality into a web interface can be done, but is at best tedious and slow (as you point out correctly). Given that google archives usenet and is quite up to date, I think usenet is still superior (and probably always will be because it's a "best-of-breed" application for this kind of problem). Cheers, uwe -- Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) Ever wondered what's wrong with the world? http://bnetwork.com/ PGP Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61