Clermont-Ferrand Preview

Preview of Clermont-Ferrand for GPL here: http://euro.racesim.net/clermont This 5-mile twisty ride around an extinct volcano was infamous for rocks being thrown like shrapnel at following drivers (costing Helmut Marko an eye in '72), something that shouldn't be a problem in GPL. It was razed in favor of a much shorter course (aka Charade) in '88. The French GP had been held there in '65, '69, '70 & '72. Lap times for GPL cars should be in the 3-minute range. The screenies make the track look beautifully detailed. --Steve Smith

Erm, I get a 403 Forbidden "You don't have permission to access /clermont/ on this server." Very nicely done, though. ;-) /Jens "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse news:nbB28.96580$[email hidden]...

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> Preview of Clermont-Ferrand for GPL here: > > http://euro.racesim.net/clermont > > This 5-mile twisty ride around an extinct volcano was infamous for rocks > being thrown like shrapnel at following drivers (costing Helmut Marko an eye > in '72), something that shouldn't be a problem in GPL. It was razed in > favor of a much shorter course (aka Charade) in '88. The French GP had been > held there in '65, '69, '70 & '72. Lap times for GPL cars should be in the > 3-minute range. > > The screenies make the track look beautifully detailed. > > --Steve Smith > > > >

Sorry. GPLEA's inability to log me in has me all crossed up. Try: http://euro.racesim.net/clermont/page_01.htm "Jens H. Kruuse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:M8C28.2047$[email hidden]... > Erm, I get a 403 Forbidden "You don't have permission to access /clermont/on

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> this server." Very nicely done, though. ;-) > > /Jens > > "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse > news:nbB28.96580$[email hidden]... > > Preview of Clermont-Ferrand for GPL here: > > > > http://euro.racesim.net/clermont > > > > This 5-mile twisty ride around an extinct volcano was infamous for rocks > > being thrown like shrapnel at following drivers (costing Helmut Marko an

eye > > in '72), something that shouldn't be a problem in GPL. It was razed in > > favor of a much shorter course (aka Charade) in '88. The French GP hadbeen > > held there in '65, '69, '70 & '72. Lap times for GPL cars should be inthe

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> > 3-minute range. > > > > The screenies make the track look beautifully detailed. > > > > --Steve Smith > > > > > > > > > >

Oooh! Aaaaah! Nice. :-) "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse news:5oC28.41115$[email hidden]... > Sorry. GPLEA's inability to log me in has me all crossed up. Try: > > http://euro.racesim.net/clermont/page_01.htm > >

The track was razed in 88 following a big crash in Formula RENAULT, just at the TIGHT hairpin after the long downhill, a guy lost his brakes and ended up FAR fgrom the course, everybody thought he was dead but he ended up unhurt, the good news about this is that my truckrace driver still has the ABSOLUTE record on this track with his 88 Formula RENAULT... I'll ask him for details and time, it'll be a challange for Huttu and the rest of the outer space drivers... "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de news: nbB28.96580$[email hidden]... > Preview of Clermont-Ferrand for GPL here: > > http://euro.racesim.net/clermont > > This 5-mile twisty ride around an extinct volcano was infamous for rocks > being thrown like shrapnel at following drivers (costing Helmut Marko aneye > in '72), something that shouldn't be a problem in GPL. It was razed in > favor of a much shorter course (aka Charade) in '88. The French GP hadbeen > held there in '65, '69, '70 & '72. Lap times for GPL cars should be inthe

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> 3-minute range. > > The screenies make the track look beautifully detailed. > > --Steve Smith > > > >

I get a "no access to this server" message with this URL. Rats! John Stephen Smith wrote:

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> Preview of Clermont-Ferrand for GPL here: > > http://euro.racesim.net/clermont > > This 5-mile twisty ride around an extinct volcano was infamous for rocks > being thrown like shrapnel at following drivers (costing Helmut Marko an eye > in '72), something that shouldn't be a problem in GPL. It was razed in > favor of a much shorter course (aka Charade) in '88. The French GP had been > held there in '65, '69, '70 & '72. Lap times for GPL cars should be in the > 3-minute range. > > The screenies make the track look beautifully detailed. > > --Steve Smith > > > > >

Ahah! I thought I saw a hairpin with a tight downhill run....hehehe This will not please Eldred! dave henrie "Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3c4afa13$0$292$[email hidden]... > The track was razed in 88 following a big crash in Formula RENAULT, justat

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> the TIGHT hairpin after the long downhill, a guy lost his brakes and ended > up FAR fgrom the course, everybody thought he was dead but he ended up > unhurt, the good news about this is that my truckrace driver still has the > ABSOLUTE record on this track with his 88 Formula RENAULT... > > I'll ask him for details and time, it'll be a challange for Huttu and the > rest of the outer space drivers... > > > "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de

news:

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> nbB28.96580$[email hidden]... > > Preview of Clermont-Ferrand for GPL here: > > > > http://euro.racesim.net/clermont > > > > This 5-mile twisty ride around an extinct volcano was infamous for rocks > > being thrown like shrapnel at following drivers (costing Helmut Marko an > eye > > in '72), something that shouldn't be a problem in GPL. It was razed in > > favor of a much shorter course (aka Charade) in '88. The French GP had > been > > held there in '65, '69, '70 & '72. Lap times for GPL cars should be in > the > > 3-minute range. > > > > The screenies make the track look beautifully detailed. > > > > --Steve Smith > > > > > > > > > >

Txl, Every new track in the 60s was billed as a "miniature Nurburgring." Clermont actually was. I can't remember how many turns it had (I'll look it up, if I can), but it really does feel like a mini-Nordschleife. It will probably be the Dieppe Raid of online venues, but for Hot Lappers, it will definitely separate Le Mans from Le Boys. --Steve "Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3c4afa13$0$292$[email hidden]... > The track was razed in 88 following a big crash in Formula RENAULT, justat

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> the TIGHT hairpin after the long downhill, a guy lost his brakes and ended > up FAR fgrom the course, everybody thought he was dead but he ended up > unhurt, the good news about this is that my truckrace driver still has the > ABSOLUTE record on this track with his 88 Formula RENAULT... > > I'll ask him for details and time, it'll be a challange for Huttu and the > rest of the outer space drivers... > > > "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de

news:

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> nbB28.96580$[email hidden]... > > Preview of Clermont-Ferrand for GPL here: > > > > http://euro.racesim.net/clermont > > > > This 5-mile twisty ride around an extinct volcano was infamous for rocks > > being thrown like shrapnel at following drivers (costing Helmut Marko an > eye > > in '72), something that shouldn't be a problem in GPL. It was razed in > > favor of a much shorter course (aka Charade) in '88. The French GP had > been > > held there in '65, '69, '70 & '72. Lap times for GPL cars should be in > the > > 3-minute range. > > > > The screenies make the track look beautifully detailed. > > > > --Steve Smith > > > > > > > > > >

Course map here: http://www.forix.com/asp/ci.asp?z=0&k=0&l=0&r=6504&c=0 One reference on the AtlasF1 site counts 51 corners (a turns-per-mile count only slightly less than the Ring's). Bon effing chance, Aliens! --Steve "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GZD28.42050$[email hidden]... > Txl, > > Every new track in the 60s was billed as a "miniature Nurburgring." > Clermont actually was. I can't remember how many turns it had (I'll lookit

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> up, if I can), but it really does feel like a mini-Nordschleife. It will > probably be the Dieppe Raid of online venues, but for Hot Lappers, it will > definitely separate Le Mans from Le Boys. > > --Steve > > "Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3c4afa13$0$292$[email hidden]... > > The track was razed in 88 following a big crash in Formula RENAULT, just > at > > the TIGHT hairpin after the long downhill, a guy lost his brakes and

ended > > up FAR fgrom the course, everybody thought he was dead but he ended up > > unhurt, the good news about this is that my truckrace driver still hasthe > > ABSOLUTE record on this track with his 88 Formula RENAULT... > > > > I'll ask him for details and time, it'll be a challange for Huttu andthe

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> > rest of the outer space drivers... > > > > > > "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de > news: > > nbB28.96580$[email hidden]... > > > Preview of Clermont-Ferrand for GPL here: > > > > > > http://euro.racesim.net/clermont > > > > > > This 5-mile twisty ride around an extinct volcano was infamous for

rocks > > > being thrown like shrapnel at following drivers (costing Helmut Markoan > > eye > > > in '72), something that shouldn't be a problem in GPL. It was razedin > > > favor of a much shorter course (aka Charade) in '88. The French GPhad > > been > > > held there in '65, '69, '70 & '72. Lap times for GPL cars should bein

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> > the > > > 3-minute range. > > > > > > The screenies make the track look beautifully detailed. > > > > > > --Steve Smith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

In article <Y2D28.3908$[email hidden]>, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> writes: > Ahah! I thought I saw a hairpin with a tight downhill run....hehehe >This will not please Eldred! >dave henrie Yeah, I thought that's what I saw, too... I can tell I won't be putting too many laps on THAT track... :( Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Now if only he'd made that track for N4! ;-) Achim P.S.: LeMans from LeBoys - good one :-) "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GZD28.42050$[email hidden]... > Txl, > > Every new track in the 60s was billed as a "miniature Nurburgring." > Clermont actually was. I can't remember how many turns it had (I'll lookit > up, if I can), but it really does feel like a mini-Nordschleife. It will > probably be the Dieppe Raid of online venues, but for Hot Lappers, it will > definitely separate Le Mans from Le Boys.

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> Every new track in the 60s was billed as a "miniature Nurburgring." > Clermont actually was. I can't remember how many turns it had (I'll look it > up, if I can), but it really does feel like a mini-Nordschleife. It will > probably be the Dieppe Raid of online venues, but for Hot Lappers, it will > definitely separate Le Mans from Le Boys. > > --Steve

Looks very cool - its amazing just how much longer and more challenging many of the tracks were in the sixties. I'd imagine it will be as hard as any of the GPL classics such as the Ring, Solitude, or Bremgarten. - Michael

Michael, Bremgarten was a little *too* challenging. Varzi was killed there in '48, after which the circuit was abandoned by the F1 circus (and the Swiss banned racing in their little country altogether after the Le Mans disaster in '55). But, yes, there were some famously dangerous tracks right up until thrill-kills like Jackie Stewart started whining abt. safety in the mid '60s. Many of these venues utilized sections of ordinary public roads: Pau, Macao, Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines, the original Hockenheim (which went "downtown" until an autobahn cut it off), Avus, Casablanca, Mellaha (faster than Indy @ the time), Montjuich, Mugello (40+ miles per lap!), Brno, Oporto, Reims, the Mille Miglia, the Targa, the Tourist Trophy, Spa, Argentina's Gran Premio, the Redex Round Australia Trial, the Carrera Mexicana, etc. The spirit of these races lives on in the WRC, if you ask me. And, of course, in GPL. --Steve > > "MP" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]... > > Every new track in the 60s was billed as a "miniature Nurburgring." > > Clermont actually was. I can't remember how many turns it had (I'lllook it > > up, if I can), but it really does feel like a mini-Nordschleife. Itwill > > probably be the Dieppe Raid of online venues, but for Hot Lappers, itwill

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> > definitely separate Le Mans from Le Boys. > > > > --Steve > > Looks very cool - its amazing just how much longer and more challenging > many of the tracks were in the sixties. > > I'd imagine it will be as hard as any of the GPL classics such as the > Ring, Solitude, or Bremgarten. > > - Michael

Stephen Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7mV28.47999$[email hidden]... > Michael, >, the Carrera > Mexicana> --Steve Carrera Panamerica was the title I think. Dave

Stephen Smith wrote: > Michael, > > '60s. Many of these venues utilized sections of ordinary public roads: Pau, > Macao, Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines, Hi Steve, I wasn't aware that there was a street course in the Torrey Pines area (I assume this is the Torrey Pines between La Jolla and Del Mar, near San Diego). Where did the course go? What types of cars raced there? What year was this? I went to college near there (UC San Diego) in the 70s Thanks, Dave Ewing -- ***************************************************** David A. Ewing Xilinx Boulder [email hidden] *****************************************************

Yes, of course it was. What makes you think I didn't know that? "DAVID J ROBINSON" <robinsonspamfamily@prodig.> wrote in message news:I3038.9583$[email hidden]...

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> > Stephen Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:7mV28.47999$[email hidden]... > > Michael, > > > , the Carrera > > Mexicana> --Steve > > Carrera Panamerica was the title I think. > > Dave > >

David, It wasn't a street course, per se. Like Laguna, it was inside an Army base (Camp Callan rather than Ft. Ord). Described in "American Sports Car Racing in the 1950s" as set on a beautiful mesa above the Pacific, "where high banks allowed spectators exceptional views of the cars and the ocean. The shops, hotels and restaurants of the nearby villages [sic] of La Jolla and Del Mar made the track a favorite for a sports-car racing weekend." It hosted many Cal Club races from '51 thru 56, including several 6-hr. enduros. Like Bridgehampton, it's now a golf course. It's a track that should be recreated for GPL. --Steve Smith, Ye Olde Historian "David Ewing" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Stephen Smith wrote: > > > Michael, > > > > '60s. Many of these venues utilized sections of ordinary public roads:Pau,

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> > Macao, Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines, > > Hi Steve, > > I wasn't aware that there was a street course in the Torrey Pines area > (I assume this is the Torrey Pines between La Jolla and Del Mar, near San > Diego). Where did the course go? What types of cars raced there? What

year

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> was this? I went to college near there (UC San Diego) in the 70s > > Thanks, > > Dave Ewing > > -- > ***************************************************** > David A. Ewing > Xilinx Boulder [email hidden] > ***************************************************** > > >

Stephen Smith wrote:

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> there were some famously dangerous tracks... Pau, > Macao, Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines, the original Hockenheim (which went > "downtown" until an autobahn cut it off), Avus, Casablanca, Mellaha (faster > than Indy @ the time), Montjuich, Mugello (40+ miles per lap!), Brno, > Oporto, Reims, the Mille Miglia, the Targa, the Tourist Trophy, Spa, > Argentina's Gran Premio, the Redex Round Australia Trial, the Carrera > Mexicana, etc. The spirit of these races lives on in the WRC, if you ask > me. And, of course, in GPL.

Hear, hear -- you can have your modern WSC cars (if you wait long enough...), but give me a Lancia D24 at the Carrera Panamericana! Now *that* would be an interesting challenge to the GPL track-coder! So would the MM, the Piccolo Madonie Targa, or the original Brno... I wonder if there's a bike sim from which the IoM TT course could be extracted for use in GPL? Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines, and Santa Barbara would be nice American additions, along with Lake Garnett, Marlboro, Bridgehampton, Riverside, and such oddballs as Brynfan Tyddyn (I wonder if I spelled that even remotely correctly?), Giant's Despair, Mt. Washington, and the original through-the-state-park-down-to-Milliken's-Bend (yes, THAT Milliken!)-and-back-up-by-Seneca-Lodge Glen course. Man, I wish I knew how to DO this coding stuff! BB BTW, nice Clermont-Ferrand, but why do the trees look like they do when I'm dropping acid?

Bart, Boy--you sure know yer SCCA history! But you forgot Put-in-Bay (the original 'round-the-houses race; you got there in NA's last operational Ford Tri-Motor!), Stockton, Bakersfield, (where James Dean DNS), Golden Gate Park, Hansen Dam, Cotati, Bryar, Cumberland, Nelson Ledges, Alexandria Bay, Beverly MA, and that most-private of all race courses, Rattlesnake (where the Chaparrals were developed). Actually, a lot of historic American courses for GPL are "in turnaround." Lou Magyar is doing Bridgehampton (I've driven the beta; it's fabulous--everybody's gonna love it) and the old Thompson road circuit (with or without the oval). Others are doing Marlboro, Willow Springs, V.I.R., and Meadowdale. I could do w/o airport circuits like Goleta (Santa Barbara), Palm Springs, and Montgomery (NY, there was also one in AL), but I'd love to see Stardust (even as bland and featureless as the surrounding terrain was), Paramount Ranch (a figure-8; there was an overpass, so it wasn't a destruction derby), and Pomona, which could be a track designer's graphic tour de force. BTW, yes, you spelled Brynfan Tyddyn right. Welsh name. It was a private road on a Senator's estate...and so narrow that it was limited to under-2-liter cars. Shelby won the last race there in a 4-cyl. Ferrari Testa Rossa (2 words, as it was spelled then). Bill Milliken (Doug's father) used to run some gigantic 4wd special up Mt. Washington every year. He had something to prove abt. 4wd's superior traction (altho I might've chosen to display its prowess @ Pikes Peak...which would also make a *fabulous* GPL venue...if I coulda found somebody else to drive it!). --Ye Olde Fmythe Meadowdale "Bart Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Stephen Smith wrote: > > there were some famously dangerous tracks... Pau, > > Macao, Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines, the original Hockenheim (which went > > "downtown" until an autobahn cut it off), Avus, Casablanca, Mellaha(faster > > than Indy @ the time), Montjuich, Mugello (40+ miles per lap!), Brno, > > Oporto, Reims, the Mille Miglia, the Targa, the Tourist Trophy, Spa, > > Argentina's Gran Premio, the Redex Round Australia Trial, the Carrera > > Mexicana, etc. The spirit of these races lives on in the WRC, if youask

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> > me. And, of course, in GPL. > > Hear, hear -- you can have your modern WSC cars (if you wait long > enough...), but give me a Lancia D24 at the Carrera Panamericana! Now > *that* would be an interesting challenge to the GPL track-coder! So > would the MM, the Piccolo Madonie Targa, or the original Brno... I > wonder if there's a bike sim from which the IoM TT course could be > extracted for use in GPL? Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines, and Santa Barbara > would be nice American additions, along with Lake Garnett, Marlboro, > Bridgehampton, Riverside, and such oddballs as Brynfan Tyddyn (I wonder > if I spelled that even remotely correctly?), Giant's Despair, Mt. > Washington, and the original > through-the-state-park-down-to-Milliken's-Bend (yes, THAT > Milliken!)-and-back-up-by-Seneca-Lodge Glen course. > > Man, I wish I knew how to DO this coding stuff! > > BB > > BTW, nice Clermont-Ferrand, but why do the trees look like they do when > I'm dropping acid?

Speaking of Macao, wouldn't that make a challenging track for GPL? I had a chance to visit there while in Hong Kong. (Of course I was there a week _after_ the annual F3 race!!!) They have a nice museum, a model of the track with video replays and two simulators. Very cool stuff. Senna's and Schummy's cars and helmets. Some guy named Carvalho won the first ever Macao GP. (No relation, that I know of; but my family tends to sow broadly.) Jim Stephen Smith wrote:

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> Michael, > > Bremgarten was a little *too* challenging. Varzi was killed there in '48, > after which the circuit was abandoned by the F1 circus (and the Swiss banned > racing in their little country altogether after the Le Mans disaster in > '55). But, yes, there were some famously dangerous tracks right up until > thrill-kills like Jackie Stewart started whining abt. safety in the mid > '60s. Many of these venues utilized sections of ordinary public roads: Pau, > Macao, Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines, the original Hockenheim (which went > "downtown" until an autobahn cut it off), Avus, Casablanca, Mellaha (faster > than Indy @ the time), Montjuich, Mugello (40+ miles per lap!), Brno, > Oporto, Reims, the Mille Miglia, the Targa, the Tourist Trophy, Spa, > Argentina's Gran Premio, the Redex Round Australia Trial, the Carrera > Mexicana, etc. The spirit of these races lives on in the WRC, if you ask > me. And, of course, in GPL. > > --Steve > > > > "MP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > Every new track in the 60s was billed as a "miniature Nurburgring." > > > Clermont actually was. I can't remember how many turns it had (I'll > look it > > > up, if I can), but it really does feel like a mini-Nordschleife. It > will > > > probably be the Dieppe Raid of online venues, but for Hot Lappers, it > will > > > definitely separate Le Mans from Le Boys. > > > > > > --Steve > > > > Looks very cool - its amazing just how much longer and more challenging > > many of the tracks were in the sixties. > > > > I'd imagine it will be as hard as any of the GPL classics such as the > > Ring, Solitude, or Bremgarten. > > > > - Michael

Carvalhos, Macao would be great: 3.8 miles, 16 or so turns, a 100-mph average. A lot of 3do's, tho. BTW, I think I was wrong abt. Mellaha. Now I'm thinking it was a purpose-built track and not on public roads. --Steve "The Carvalho Family" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Speaking of Macao, wouldn't that make a challenging track for GPL? I had a > chance to visit there while in Hong Kong. (Of course I was there a week_after_ > the annual F3 race!!!) They have a nice museum, a model of the track withvideo > replays and two simulators. Very cool stuff. Senna's and Schummy's carsand > helmets. Some guy named Carvalho won the first ever Macao GP. (Norelation, that

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> I know of; but my family tends to sow broadly.) > > Jim > > Stephen Smith wrote: > > > Michael, > > > > Bremgarten was a little *too* challenging. Varzi was killed there in

'48, > > after which the circuit was abandoned by the F1 circus (and the Swissbanned > > racing in their little country altogether after the Le Mans disaster in > > '55). But, yes, there were some famously dangerous tracks right upuntil > > thrill-kills like Jackie Stewart started whining abt. safety in the mid > > '60s. Many of these venues utilized sections of ordinary public roads:Pau, > > Macao, Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines, the original Hockenheim (which went > > "downtown" until an autobahn cut it off), Avus, Casablanca, Mellaha(faster > > than Indy @ the time), Montjuich, Mugello (40+ miles per lap!), Brno, > > Oporto, Reims, the Mille Miglia, the Targa, the Tourist Trophy, Spa, > > Argentina's Gran Premio, the Redex Round Australia Trial, the Carrera > > Mexicana, etc. The spirit of these races lives on in the WRC, if youask

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> > me. And, of course, in GPL. > > > > --Steve > > > > > > "MP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Every new track in the 60s was billed as a "miniature Nurburgring." > > > > Clermont actually was. I can't remember how many turns it had (I'll > > look it > > > > up, if I can), but it really does feel like a mini-Nordschleife. It > > will > > > > probably be the Dieppe Raid of online venues, but for Hot Lappers,

it > > will > > > > definitely separate Le Mans from Le Boys. > > > > > > > > --Steve > > > > > > Looks very cool - its amazing just how much longer and morechallenging

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> > > many of the tracks were in the sixties. > > > > > > I'd imagine it will be as hard as any of the GPL classics such as the > > > Ring, Solitude, or Bremgarten. > > > > > > - Michael >

In article <7mV28.47999$[email hidden]>, "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> writes: >Mugello (40+ miles per lap!), Whoa...now THAT would be COOL... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Stephen Smith wrote: > > Beverly MA Oddly enough, I hold in my hand the names of several State Department... oops, wrong thread. Actually, right in front of me is the "official program" from the Second Annual Beverly National Sports Car Races, July 7, 1956; held under the sanction of the SCCA, then headed by one James H. Kimberly (Kleenex, anyone?) of Chicago, Illinois. Many other evocative names show up in the entry lists for the seven races held that day: E.M. "Pup" Pupilidy, Howard Hanna (I *think* of the Hanna carwash empire that ended up being an Andretti sponsor of note -- someone correct me if I'm wrong), Briggs Cunningham, Jack McAfee, Ray Heppenstall (later of Howmet turbine fame), Fred Wacker, Louis Brero, Bob Bucher (another Upstate NY boy!), Carroll Shelby, Masten Gregory, Phil Cade, George Weaver, Gaston "Gus" Andrey, Charles William "Chuck" Kolb, Bengt Soderstrom, Bob Grossman, George Constantine, Dr. Richard K. Thompson, Jr., Charles Moran (previous year's SCCA Prez), Mr. Kimberley hisself (imagine Max Mosely or Tony George slipping their expensive asses into a racing car to mix it up with the lower classes!), and my personal favorite, the exotically-named Mumbert C. Cozza... Photos in the program show winners from the previous year's inaugural race, including Phil Hill, "Tip" Lipe (another Upstate NY boy!), Walt Hansgen... and the cars! Paul Ceresole in a gorgeous and ungodly-rare Kieft competition roadster, Fritz Koster in an early bulb-fendered Maserati A6GCS, Hansgen's short-nosed D-Jag (a twin of which you could buy, along with Maseratis, OSCAs, and FIATs, at the full-page-ad-sponsor "Momo Corporation, Automotive Engineers, Woodside, NY), Bill Llyod, SCCA VP and owner of Thompson, and his 2.7 Ferrari Barchetta, Len Bastrup in a polished-alloy-bodied Lotus IX... Oh, and as added kickers in this one race program, there's an ad for the upcoming September and October races at Thompson, accompanied by a nice aerial shot of the combined oval and road course, and a full back cover ad for the Corvette, featuring a large (B&W of course) photo of the Cunningham-entered Corvette at Sebring, with the wonderful built-by-the-Taliban wooden pits threatening to collapse in the background. If there's one good thing about being an old fart, it's being able to remember actually *seeing* this stuff... and it ain't just nostalgia; those really WERE the days, the like of which we'll never see again... Sorry, I'm completely verklemmt here... talk amongst yourselves... I'll take that Kleenex now... BB

Bart, I was at that very race! I think I still have fotos somewhere, but it being an airport circuit, spectators were kept thousands of feet back behind snow fencing, and even with a telephoto lens, the cars are mere dots on the horizon. But I remember most of the participants and their cars as if it was yesterday. I remember Gus Andrey fuming at Denise McCluggage, "If you were a man I'd punch your lights out," and she shot back, "If *you* were a man I'd punch *your* lights out!" (although that was three years later at Lime Rock). At Beverly, I remember Andrey and Harry Carter having at each other on tank-sized Jag XK-120s until Dick Thompson humbled them with the first Corvette with a 4-speed tranny. Wasn't Paul O'Shea there, too, with a 300SL roadster? George Weaver owned Thompson (along with a ratty old Maserati A6GCS he called "Poison Li'l"), or at least the property next door to the oval (which is still operating). The first road course utilized half a lap of the oval then meandered out into the boonies and back again. Weaver, a feisty little guy, got in some beef with the oval-track owner, which resulted in a spite fence being built between the two properties...and a new road circuit being built (abt. 2 miles long; I held the EP lap record there for a while, and drove one of the Cunningham Corvettes that raced @ Le Mans in 1960), which lasted until the early 70s. Lou Magyar wants to build a GPL version of Thompson. If I send you his address, would you send him a Xerox (or a scan) of your Thompson map? --Steve Smith "Bart Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Stephen Smith wrote: > > > > Beverly MA > > Oddly enough, I hold in my hand the names of several State Department... > oops, wrong thread. Actually, right in front of me is the "official > program" from the Second Annual Beverly National Sports Car Races, July > 7, 1956; held under the sanction of the SCCA, then headed by one James > H. Kimberly (Kleenex, anyone?) of Chicago, Illinois. Many other > evocative names show up in the entry lists for the seven races held that > day: E.M. "Pup" Pupilidy, Howard Hanna (I *think* of the Hanna carwash > empire that ended up being an Andretti sponsor of note -- someone > correct me if I'm wrong), Briggs Cunningham, Jack McAfee, Ray > Heppenstall (later of Howmet turbine fame), Fred Wacker, Louis Brero, > Bob Bucher (another Upstate NY boy!), Carroll Shelby, Masten Gregory, > Phil Cade, George Weaver, Gaston "Gus" Andrey, Charles William "Chuck" > Kolb, Bengt Soderstrom, Bob Grossman, George Constantine, Dr. Richard K. > Thompson, Jr., Charles Moran (previous year's SCCA Prez), Mr. Kimberley > hisself (imagine Max Mosely or Tony George slipping their expensive > asses into a racing car to mix it up with the lower classes!), and my > personal favorite, the exotically-named Mumbert C. Cozza... > > Photos in the program show winners from the previous year's inaugural > race, including Phil Hill, "Tip" Lipe (another Upstate NY boy!), Walt > Hansgen... and the cars! Paul Ceresole in a gorgeous and ungodly-rare > Kieft competition roadster, Fritz Koster in an early bulb-fendered > Maserati A6GCS, Hansgen's short-nosed D-Jag (a twin of which you could > buy, along with Maseratis, OSCAs, and FIATs, at the full-page-ad-sponsor > "Momo Corporation, Automotive Engineers, Woodside, NY), Bill Llyod, SCCA > VP and owner of Thompson, and his 2.7 Ferrari Barchetta, Len Bastrup in > a polished-alloy-bodied Lotus IX... > > > Oh, and as added kickers in this one race program, there's an ad for the > upcoming September and October races at Thompson, accompanied by a nice > aerial shot of the combined oval and road course, and a full back cover > ad for the Corvette, featuring a large (B&W of course) photo of the > Cunningham-entered Corvette at Sebring, with the wonderful > built-by-the-Taliban wooden pits threatening to collapse in the

background.

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> > > If there's one good thing about being an old fart, it's being able to > remember actually *seeing* this stuff... and it ain't just nostalgia; > those really WERE the days, the like of which we'll never see again... > > Sorry, I'm completely verklemmt here... talk amongst yourselves... I'll > take that Kleenex now... > > BB

Stephen Smith wrote: > BTW, I think I was wrong abt. Mellaha. Now I'm thinking it was a > purpose-built track and not on public roads. Mellaha Lake (actually, a dry salt basin near Tripoli, Libya), was built under the auspices of Mussolini's Fascist government. The inaugural race in 1933 was the occasion of the great Lottery scandal involving several drivers including Varzi: http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cir-042.html Ain-Diab, Anfa airfield, Casablanca, Morocco The site of the last-ditch battle between Stirling Moss and Mike Hawthorn for the 1958 World Championship, a championship Moss would have easily won under later GP scoring rules. Even more instructively, it was a championship Moss would have won had Moss not protested what he felt was an unjust penalty levied on Hawthorn at Portugal earlier in the season. As a result of Moss' testimony, Hawthorn was absolved in Portugal, and won the championship in Morocco by one point, though Moss had four victories that year to Hawthorn's one. A piece of sportsmanship, like Collins' turning over his car to Fangio, that is simply inconceivable in today's "F1" entertainment business. 1958 was the first and last time the circuit at Ain-Diab was used, as part of Morocco's celebration of its newly-won independence. It was a tough and primitive circuit, with questionable and remote medical facilities that may have decided the fate of Moss' teammate at Vanwall, Stuart Lewis-Evans, who was badly burned in what seemed to be a relatively minor shunt on lap 42. Lewis-Evans' Vanwall had what may have been a transmission failure, and inarguably a blown engine, but he trundled off course at a fairly reduced speed in what should have been a mechanically-survivable accident. Unfortunately, oil blowing back from the blown engine set his hardly-flameproof coverall's alight and he was burned severely before a fire marshal was able to extinguish the flames. Vanwall team-owner Tony Vandervell flew him back to a burn unit in England in Vandervell's chartered airliner, but Lewis-Evans succumbed six days later. http://www.f1db.com/formula1/database/circuits?action=display_circuit&circuitdataID=19581019 http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr075.html

I've visited neither of these two venues. I'm sorry I missed the one & only appearance of the MB W165, but not Lewis-Evans demise. "Bart Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Stephen Smith wrote: > > > BTW, I think I was wrong abt. Mellaha. Now I'm thinking it was a > > purpose-built track and not on public roads. > > Mellaha Lake (actually, a dry salt basin near Tripoli, Libya), was built > under the auspices of Mussolini's Fascist government. The inaugural race > in 1933 was the occasion of the great Lottery scandal involving several > drivers including Varzi: > > http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cir-042.html > > Ain-Diab, Anfa airfield, Casablanca, Morocco > > The site of the last-ditch battle between Stirling Moss and Mike > Hawthorn for the 1958 World Championship, a championship Moss would have > easily won under later GP scoring rules. Even more instructively, it was > a championship Moss would have won had Moss not protested what he felt > was an unjust penalty levied on Hawthorn at Portugal earlier in the > season. As a result of Moss' testimony, Hawthorn was absolved in > Portugal, and won the championship in Morocco by one point, though Moss > had four victories that year to Hawthorn's one. A piece of > sportsmanship, like Collins' turning over his car to Fangio, that is > simply inconceivable in today's "F1" entertainment business. > > 1958 was the first and last time the circuit at Ain-Diab was used, as > part of Morocco's celebration of its newly-won independence. It was a > tough and primitive circuit, with questionable and remote medical > facilities that may have decided the fate of Moss' teammate at Vanwall, > Stuart Lewis-Evans, who was badly burned in what seemed to be a > relatively minor shunt on lap 42. Lewis-Evans' Vanwall had what may have > been a transmission failure, and inarguably a blown engine, but he > trundled off course at a fairly reduced speed in what should have been a > mechanically-survivable accident. Unfortunately, oil blowing back from > the blown engine set his hardly-flameproof coverall's alight and he was > burned severely before a fire marshal was able to extinguish the flames. > Vanwall team-owner Tony Vandervell flew him back to a burn unit in > England in Vandervell's chartered airliner, but Lewis-Evans succumbed > six days later. > >

http://www.f1db.com/formula1/database/circuits?action=display_circuit&circui tdataID=19581019 > > http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr075.html

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <7mV28.47999$[email hidden]>, "StephenSmith" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Mugello (40+ miles per lap!), > > Whoa...now THAT would be COOL... Cool as in "I don't know my way around the Ring or Solitude or ..."?? Bring on the SHORT tracks. Ones I have a prayer of learning my way around!

Stephen Smith wrote:

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> It wasn't a street course, per se. Like Laguna, it was inside an Army base > (Camp Callan rather than Ft. Ord). Described in "American Sports Car Racing > in the 1950s" as set on a beautiful mesa above the Pacific, "where high > banks allowed spectators exceptional views of the cars and the ocean. The > shops, hotels and restaurants of the nearby villages [sic] of La Jolla and > Del Mar made the track a favorite for a sports-car racing weekend." It > hosted many Cal Club races from '51 thru 56, including several 6-hr. > enduros. Like Bridgehampton, it's now a golf course. It's a track that > should be recreated for GPL.

Thanks, Steve. That was even before my time. I have played the golf course (actually two) that are located on that property many times (Torrey Pines North and South courses), and it is an incredibly beautiful place. Dave Ewing -- ***************************************************** David A. Ewing Xilinx Boulder [email hidden] *****************************************************

Stephen Smith wrote: > and that most-private of all race courses, Rattlesnake (where > the Chaparrals were developed). I had a similar idea of making a course for Rattlesnake Raceway when I was reading the "Chaparral" book a couple of years ago. There is even a very crude track map for it in the book. The surrounding scenery would be easy - just desert scrub and a couple of buildings. I wonder if there is an aerial shot of it on Mapquest (assuming it is still there). Dave Ewing -- ***************************************************** David A. Ewing Xilinx Boulder [email hidden] *****************************************************

David, I'm sure it's still there. Hall was very thrifty; never threw anything away. The latest Chaparral books make much of the fact that he made almost all of the Chaparral 2x's from the same couple of chassis (except for the horrible streamliner and the wonderful sucker car...and maybe even those!). Yes, Rattlesnake would be dead easy to make. It's most distinctive feature was an early form of "telemetry": Hall buried light sensors in the track (the "eyes" from a drag racing setup, I think) and ran all the wiring back to a pen recorder at the S/F line. When the car would cross over the sensor, it would blot out the sun, making a mark on the graph paper. Thus he had precise readings at every point on the track (it was 1.95 miles long), so any change in the engine, drive-train, suspension or aero package could be evaluated immediately. A really, really sharp guy. --Steve --Steve "David Ewing" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Stephen Smith wrote: > > > and that most-private of all race courses, Rattlesnake (where > > the Chaparrals were developed). > > I had a similar idea of making a course for Rattlesnake Raceway when I was > reading the "Chaparral" book a couple of years ago. There is even a very

crude > track map for it in the book. The surrounding scenery would be easy -just > desert scrub and a couple of buildings. I wonder if there is an aerialshot of

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> it on Mapquest (assuming it is still there). > > Dave Ewing > > -- > ***************************************************** > David A. Ewing > Xilinx Boulder [email hidden] > ***************************************************** > > >

Rob, As Crystal Palace proves, you can't judge a track by its plan view. Looking at the map, I never would have suspected that a track as dinky as CP would have such a lovely flow. It's really magical. OTOH, I can't stand Heartland, Willow Springs or Roebling, which are much loved (in real-life) by club racers. I wish somebody would deliver V.I.R, Laguna67, and/or Surfer's. They all look great...on paper. --Steve "Rob Adams" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Mgi38.1927$Qq1.10463@shaw-ty2...

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> "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <7mV28.47999$[email hidden]>, "Stephen > Smith" > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > >Mugello (40+ miles per lap!), > > > > Whoa...now THAT would be COOL... > > Cool as in "I don't know my way around the Ring or Solitude or ..."?? > > Bring on the SHORT tracks. Ones I have a prayer of learning my way around! > >

Not to mention l-o-o-n-n-g straight, twisties and hairpin. Stephen Smith wrote:

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> Carvalhos, > > Macao would be great: 3.8 miles, 16 or so turns, a 100-mph average. A lot > of 3do's, tho. > > BTW, I think I was wrong abt. Mellaha. Now I'm thinking it was a > purpose-built track and not on public roads. > > --Steve > > "The Carvalho Family" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Speaking of Macao, wouldn't that make a challenging track for GPL? I had a > > chance to visit there while in Hong Kong. (Of course I was there a week > _after_ > > the annual F3 race!!!) They have a nice museum, a model of the track with > video > > replays and two simulators. Very cool stuff. Senna's and Schummy's cars > and > > helmets. Some guy named Carvalho won the first ever Macao GP. (No > relation, that > > I know of; but my family tends to sow broadly.) > > > > Jim > > > > Stephen Smith wrote: > > > > > Michael, > > > > > > Bremgarten was a little *too* challenging. Varzi was killed there in > '48, > > > after which the circuit was abandoned by the F1 circus (and the Swiss > banned > > > racing in their little country altogether after the Le Mans disaster in > > > '55). But, yes, there were some famously dangerous tracks right up > until > > > thrill-kills like Jackie Stewart started whining abt. safety in the mid > > > '60s. Many of these venues utilized sections of ordinary public roads: > Pau, > > > Macao, Pebble Beach, Torrey Pines, the original Hockenheim (which went > > > "downtown" until an autobahn cut it off), Avus, Casablanca, Mellaha > (faster > > > than Indy @ the time), Montjuich, Mugello (40+ miles per lap!), Brno, > > > Oporto, Reims, the Mille Miglia, the Targa, the Tourist Trophy, Spa, > > > Argentina's Gran Premio, the Redex Round Australia Trial, the Carrera > > > Mexicana, etc. The spirit of these races lives on in the WRC, if you > ask > > > me. And, of course, in GPL. > > > > > > --Steve > > > > > > > > "MP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > Every new track in the 60s was billed as a "miniature Nurburgring." > > > > > Clermont actually was. I can't remember how many turns it had (I'll > > > look it > > > > > up, if I can), but it really does feel like a mini-Nordschleife. It > > > will > > > > > probably be the Dieppe Raid of online venues, but for Hot Lappers, > it > > > will > > > > > definitely separate Le Mans from Le Boys. > > > > > > > > > > --Steve > > > > > > > > Looks very cool - its amazing just how much longer and more > challenging > > > > many of the tracks were in the sixties. > > > > > > > > I'd imagine it will be as hard as any of the GPL classics such as the > > > > Ring, Solitude, or Bremgarten. > > > > > > > > - Michael > >

On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 15:16:35 GMT, "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Preview of Clermont-Ferrand for GPL here: >http://euro.racesim.net/clermont > >This 5-mile twisty ride around an extinct volcano was infamous for rocks >being thrown like shrapnel at following drivers (costing Helmut Marko an eye >in '72), something that shouldn't be a problem in GPL. It was razed in >favor of a much shorter course (aka Charade) in '88. The French GP had been >held there in '65, '69, '70 & '72. Lap times for GPL cars should be in the >3-minute range. >The screenies make the track look beautifully detailed.

I don't know what "razed" exactly means, but the original track around the volcano was cut short by a additional section in the south eastern part. This Charade track, despite being safer, still seems to be a very nice and challenging track, similar to the Nordschleife, and I hope I can drive on it some day. The remaining part of the original 8km track still exists as a public road. In drove there in May 2001, recording an onboard video for Martijn "Taffer" Keizer. -- Matthias Flatt

On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 18:26:46 GMT, "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Every new track in the 60s was billed as a "miniature Nurburgring."Like the 1967 Bugatti at Le Mans? >Clermont actually was. I can't remember how many turns it had (I'll look it >up, if I can), but it really does feel like a mini-Nordschleife.The view onto the "black wall" of the volcano rock plus the view on the city below is fantastic, even in rain and fog. I missed the elevation changes the Rings has, though. But then, I was driving rather slowly there. -- Matthias Flatt

On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:49:26 -0000, MP <[email hidden]> wrote: >Looks very cool - its amazing just how much longer and more challenging >many of the tracks were in the sixties. > >I'd imagine it will be as hard as any of the GPL classics such as the >Ring, Solitude, or Bremgarten.Probably, yes. In 2001, I drove my BMW many times on the Nordschleife, and on the remaining public roads of Solitude, Clermont-Ferrand and Spa. I've even been at Monthl�ry and AVUS, and did some "farewell" speeding on the Hockenheim forest straights at night in both directions. Reims, Rouen and Bremgarten are still on the "to do"-list, though. BTW: BMW beats GPL! ;-) -- Matthias Flatt

On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:13:23 GMT, "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Bremgarten was a little *too* challenging. Varzi was killed there in '48, >after which the circuit was abandoned by the F1 circus The last GP was held there in 1954. Fangio won AFAIR, and Mercedes youngster Hans Hermann was 3rd. >(and the Swiss banned >racing in their little country altogether after the Le Mans disaster in >'55).Circuit racing is still banned AFAIK, but they do hillclimbs, which is nowadys probably the closest to the old style racing, apart from rallying. -- Matthias Flatt

In article <Mgi38.1927$Qq1.10463@shaw-ty2>, "Rob Adams" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> In article <7mV28.47999$[email hidden]>, "Stephen >Smith" >> <[email hidden]> writes: >> >> >Mugello (40+ miles per lap!), >> >> Whoa...now THAT would be COOL... > >Cool as in "I don't know my way around the Ring or Solitude or ..."?? > >Bring on the SHORT tracks. Ones I have a prayer of learning my way around! >

Cool as in I won't have to worry about being LAPPED...<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <kHn38.110918$[email hidden]>, "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Rob, > >As Crystal Palace proves, you can't judge a track by its plan view. Looking >at the map, I never would have suspected that a track as dinky as CP would >have such a lovely flow. It's really magical. OTOH, I can't stand >Heartland, Willow Springs or Roebling, which are much loved (in real-life) >by club racers. I wish somebody would deliver V.I.R, Laguna67, and/or >Surfer's. They all look great...on paper.

But, you can't actually RACE on Crystal Palace... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.