Is force-feedback worth the extra cash ?

I've no experience of using force-feedback controllers - steering wheel or otherwise. Are they really worth the money in a racing sim ? Comments welcome. Thanks.

Anthony, I would say that it depends on what sim your talking about. In sims like N4, GPL, F1 2001, and Viper Racing, FF is definitely worthwhile, since it gives you a feel for what the car is doing on the track. In other games, which I hesitate to call sims (ie - Midtown Madness, Insane, etc) all it gives you is a feel of the impacts. List what specific sims you drive, and you'll get more specific answers. Bert Anthony wrote:

Quoted text (7 lines)

> I've no experience of using force-feedback controllers - > steering wheel or otherwise. Are they really worth the money > in a racing sim ? > > Comments welcome. > > Thanks.

Anthony, I would say that it depends on what sim your talking about. In sims like N4, GPL, F1 2001, and Viper Racing, FF is definitely worthwhile, since it gives you a feel for what the car is doing on the track. In other games, which I hesitate to call sims (ie - Midtown Madness, Insane, etc) all it gives you is a feel of the impacts. List what specific sims you drive, and you'll get more specific answers. Bert

Quoted text (7 lines)

> I've no experience of using force-feedback controllers - > steering wheel or otherwise. Are they really worth the money > in a racing sim ? > Comments welcome. > Thanks.

On 21 Jan 2002 14:17:43 GMT, [email hidden] (Anthony) wrote: >I've no experience of using force-feedback controllers - >steering wheel or otherwise. Are they really worth the money >in a racing sim ? Well I think it all depends what your budget is. If you're talking about "budget" wheels (i.e. �150 or less) then I reckon a decent FF wheel is worth it. Personally I don't see the point in buying the non FF versions of Microsoft/Logitech/Whaever products when the FF version is not that much more expensive and adds so much more to the driving experience (if properly configured). However if your talking about buying some serious sim driving kit then non FF is the way to go and in fact the only thing available. I've tried everything from cheap non FF wheels to reasonable FF wheels to ridiculously expensive non FF (ECCI controls F1 Momo...drooool). IMHO opinion most non FF cheaper wheels just feel loose and lifeless and provide no sense of what is happening. I have the MSFF wheel and have found it to be absolutely brilliant. The implementation of FF is so good in Gpl that I can feel what the car's doing and since using the FF wheel my driving has improved considerably.....it just adds so much to the gaming experience. Of course using the ECCI wheel (belongs to a mate) was on another level again, but then so was the price. The problem is of course that not all sims are the same <fx: ducks to avoid ensuing flame war> and so in some cases FF is simply intrusive and more of a pain than a sensory cue. In short, get an MSFF, or Logitech Momo, or Act Labs RS (if you live in the US). You won't regret it :-) Andy -- Andy Cunningham Stockholm, Sweden

For me, yes. I had the Microsoft FF wheel, but because of wiring problems I was unable to fix, the wheel went kapoots. That said, I purchased the non FF version of the Microsoft wheel, as there were no FF versions available in my town, and then launched Nascar 4. Did two laps without the FF, stopped the car, and closed N4. The wheel was returned to the store the next day. I just found that without the forces, it was hard to determine what the car was doing. I couldn't tell whether the car was loose or tight until it was too late.... Dave "Anthony" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a2h7u7$569$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> I've no experience of using force-feedback controllers - > steering wheel or otherwise. Are they really worth the money > in a racing sim ? > > > Comments welcome. > > Thanks. >

"Anthony" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a2h7u7$569$[email hidden]... > I've no experience of using force-feedback controllers - > steering wheel or otherwise. Are they really worth the money > in a racing sim ? I'd say so - although in most games it tends to be more about fun than control. However, I use an original logitech LWFF and I don't think you can get them anymore. In GPL, I find the weighting up of the steering helps warn me about imminent problems earlier. In RC2000, the steering goes totally light over the ice - which helps draw you into the action. In SCGT, the force feedback doesn't help much - and that's the story for many others too - excpet perhaps Colin McRae Rally. Perhaps the key thing is that if you don't get a FF one now, you'll probably end up buying one in the end out of curiousity. If your married - buying this second wheel is likely to get you a fair bit of hassle at home :-) So, on that basis - if this is a question your asking before buying ant wheel you might want to go FF now. Steve

I have the Logitech Formula Force and for the most part I leave the FF off. GPL is the only game I actually use it in. IMO in 99% of the titles out there FF is just another gimmick. My biggest complaint with FF is that it tends to do alot of the driving if you will. FF in most titles is not what you would really think it to be at first. FF is more than just feeling the "bumps" in the road. FF is a combination of those bumps along with a simulation of what you would feel in the seat of your pants. There lies the problem because in most cases the your "seat" isn't doing the driving your hands are. This is one of those compromises between the real world and the sim world. Similar to why tire squeal is always so loud in a racing title. Before FF tire sound was one of the ways they let you know how much grip you had. FF can be a real bear to tune to your liking. GPL and N4 aren't bad because there is really only 3 settings to adjust. I have not even attempted F12001 after seeing the posts in here showing all those variables to set, yikes! One thing that I can't stand with the non FF wheels is the lack of tension on them. Its way to easy to over steer with the small diameter wheels that come with most controllers. If it wasn't for GPL I would be 99% sure that my next wheel would be a TSW, but with GPL and the add-ons like clutch pedal and shifter I'm really giving the ACT-Labs a serious look. I just with it had a larger diameter wheel. So if GPL is a big part of your sim driving I would say yes go for FF. If not then don't worry about it. MadDAWG

"Andy Cunningham" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On 21 Jan 2002 14:17:43 GMT, [email hidden] (Anthony) wrote: > provide no sense of what is happening. I have the MSFF wheel and have > found it to be absolutely brilliant. The implementation of FF is so > good in Gpl that I can feel what the car's doing and since using the Is it the USB version, and did you change the settings in GPL? I have a MSFF USB Wheel and I have not changed the settings from the default. I was just wondering if you or someone else could recommend what settings to use. I think I know how to "calibrate" the wheel, just haven't fond the time to do so. Jone Tytlandsvik Norway

On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:20:42 +0100, "Jone Tytlandsvik" <[email hidden]> wrote: Jone >Is it the USB version, and did you change the settings in GPL? It's the game port version and I can't remember what settings I've got, but I'll have a look in my core.ini when I get home and post the settings. I think they're pretty much standard. The key thing is to AVOID using extremely high values as recommended by some. HTH Andy -- Andy Cunningham Stockholm, Sweden

I like using my FF wheel, but they are a mixed blessing at best. First, you should be aware that there are still a lot of really fast guys using non-FF wheels. So FF does not necessarily help you go faster. Without an FF wheel it is a little bit harder to feel when a car is about to slide, but frankly an improperly set up FF wheel will only make things worse. I have found that even with FF I can detect and correct for a slide more easily using my eyes. The trick is learning to not look at the ground in front of you, but rather keep your eyes centered in the direction you are trying to go. Since that skill is also a necessary part of driving fast, you will have to develop it anyway and may already have it, and once you have it the FF doesn't help that much. What I do like about FF is simply that it feels much more natural than the centering spring on non-FF wheels. That can be a big help in guiding a car. For example, in a NASCAR sim on straights the car would normally drift to the left if you held the wheel straight. With FF you can feel this and correct for it. Similarly, I feel like I have a much better sense of when the car is straight on turn exit with an FF wheel. So the benefit to FF for me is better directional feel. But my big disappointment with FF has been the amount of tweaking that some games require. I'm going to get myself in trouble here by saying this, but the FF implementation in Papyrus and MGI sims is IMO all wrong. They both claim to bypass the normal FF interface in order to maintain better control of the forces you feel. I don't know exactly what that means from a programming standpoint, but I do know that bypassing the standard interface means giving up what the wheel's drivers and firmware know about the mechanical properties of the wheel. This means that in Papy sims you have to manually determine a correction for the wheel's latency, and in NASCAR Heat you have to manually adjust the blending between the centering spring force and the force due to grip. Frankly, with my wheel I just cannot get them right, but I have the Logitech Wingman Formula Force GP, which is a low cost, low torque wheel. I think it probably has more latency than the Papyrus model can account for, and is weaker than the MGI model can account for. Still, if they had stuck with the standard spring/mass/damper model that is provided for in the API and properly calibrated in the wheel, I wouldn't have this problem. For example, in F1 2001 I can just set the level of effects and the effects strength in the menu, and it works fine. I CAN tweak it more than that, but I don't have to. And I think many people would agree with me that F1 2001 has the best FF implementation of any sim. Similarly NFS:PU just requires the adjustment of effects levels, no calibration routine. The physics in NFS:PU may not be much to write home about, but the FF implementation does indeed allow you to feel the car's handling (such as it is) precisely. Rally Trophy (I only have the demo) works just fine without setting anything. So I guess what I am saying is that it depends on the games you play, and on which wheel you get. If you are a serious sim racer, or if you play Papy or MGI games, don't get a cheap FF wheel, they are only good for arcade racers. And you don't need FF to go fast, but it is an asset and can make driving easier. The Logitech Momo and the Act Labs units seem to consistently get the best reviews, go for one of those and you will probably be happy. If you can't afford one of those, skip it altogether. The Microsoft and Thrustmaster units appear to be sound mechanically, but I frequently see people in here complaining about compatibility or other driver related problems with those units. And as I said the Logitech GP is not really adequate for serious sims. So to get back to your question, are they worth the money? Only you can answer that, but what I wanted to make clear is that you should plan on getting one of the better units if you want to do it at all. The Momo for example is US $200. Is it worth that amount of money to have a more natural feeling wheel in some of your games? For some people yes, for others no. "Anthony" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a2h7u7$569$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> I've no experience of using force-feedback controllers - > steering wheel or otherwise. Are they really worth the money > in a racing sim ? > > > Comments welcome. > > Thanks. >

I just purchased the Act Labs Force RS , shifter and hi performance pedals and clutch. I have re-fallen in love with GPL since. The unit is superb and worth every cent. The stock pedals are a disappointment; the hi perf pedals are excellent. Even with the mod at Slottweak the stock pedals will frustrate you. Get the hi perf pedals. I own the LWFF GP and the MSFF, two wheels that I really enjoy, as well but the Force RS is a step above, imo. I can feel the weight of the cars. No more driving on ice. I can feel a setup change. I can feel the weight shift. These three things have increased my enjoyment immensely. I am a bit slower than I was, but I've only had the setup for a week now. Best, Greg Avella "Anthony" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a2h7u7$569$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> I've no experience of using force-feedback controllers - > steering wheel or otherwise. Are they really worth the money > in a racing sim ? > > > Comments welcome. > > Thanks. >

Jone, As promised, details of my core.ini xx [Joy ] allow_force_feedback = 1 ; Use FF if device has it force_feedback_damping = 0.000000 ; force feedback damping coefficient force_feedback_latency = 0.000000 ; force feedback latency (secs) max_steering_torque = 240.000000 ; steering torque giving max device force [ Hack ] steer_ratio = 0 xx HTH Andy -- Andy Cunningham Stockholm, Sweden

Well I put off buying one for a long time, have been running a TSW2 which is non FF of course, it's built like a tank and I know it will last me forever. However, curiousity got too me, I was in Best Buy a couple of weekends ago and saw the Logitech Momo, fell in love with it, and upon nothing but impulse, I plunked 200 bucks down for it. I must say, I am in love with it. The FF brings a whole new dimension to sim racing for me, especially in F12001. Perhaps I'll change my mind in a couple of months, but right now I am sticking with the Momo for my racing. Bout the only 2 sims I am running right now is N4 and F12001. Don Burnette "Anthony" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a2h7u7$569$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (10 lines)

> I've no experience of using force-feedback controllers - > steering wheel or otherwise. Are they really worth the money > in a racing sim ? > > > Comments welcome. > > Thanks. > >

In article <3c4c2c5d$[email hidden]>, "Dave St.Onge" <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted text (9 lines)

>For me, yes. I had the Microsoft FF wheel, but because of wiring problems I >was unable to fix, the wheel went kapoots. That said, I purchased the non >FF version of the Microsoft wheel, as there were no FF versions available in >my town, and then launched Nascar 4. Did two laps without the FF, stopped >the car, and closed N4. The wheel was returned to the store the next day. >I just found that without the forces, it was hard to determine what the car >was doing. I couldn't tell whether the car was loose or tight until it was >too late.... >

How long had you run with FF before you were forced to try without it? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Don, You can use your TSW peds together with your Momo wheel in both N4 and F12001......... Just in case you weren't aware of that. It gives you the best of both worlds. I run my LWFF together with the TSW peds, myself. Bert Don Burnette wrote:

Quoted text (25 lines)

> Well I put off buying one for a long time, have been running a TSW2 which is > non FF of course, it's built like a tank and I know it will last me forever. > However, curiousity got too me, I was in Best Buy a couple of weekends ago > and saw the Logitech Momo, fell in love with it, and upon nothing but > impulse, I plunked 200 bucks down for it. > I must say, I am in love with it. The FF brings a whole new dimension to sim > racing for me, especially in F12001. > Perhaps I'll change my mind in a couple of months, but right now I am > sticking with the Momo for my racing. Bout the only 2 sims I am running > right now is N4 and F12001. > > Don Burnette > > "Anthony" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:a2h7u7$569$[email hidden]... > > I've no experience of using force-feedback controllers - > > steering wheel or otherwise. Are they really worth the money > > in a racing sim ? > > > > > > Comments welcome. > > > > Thanks. > > > >

Don, You can use your TSW peds together with your Momo wheel in both N4 and F12001......... Just in case you weren't aware of that. It gives you the best of both worlds. I run my LWFF together with the TSW peds, myself. Bert

Quoted text (23 lines)

> Well I put off buying one for a long time, have been running a TSW2 which is > non FF of course, it's built like a tank and I know it will last me forever. > However, curiousity got too me, I was in Best Buy a couple of weekends ago > and saw the Logitech Momo, fell in love with it, and upon nothing but > impulse, I plunked 200 bucks down for it. > I must say, I am in love with it. The FF brings a whole new dimension to sim > racing for me, especially in F12001. > Perhaps I'll change my mind in a couple of months, but right now I am > sticking with the Momo for my racing. Bout the only 2 sims I am running > right now is N4 and F12001. > Don Burnette > > I've no experience of using force-feedback controllers - > > steering wheel or otherwise. Are they really worth the money > > in a racing sim ? > > Comments welcome. > > Thanks.

Yeah, but I guess I'm going to have to get dual switch in order to get my split axis with it, don't want to give that up with the Momo. I'll get it though and see which I like better. Thanks, Don Burnette "BRH @attbroadband.com>" <"bertrh<no-spam> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Don, > > You can use your TSW peds together with your Momo wheel in both N4 and > F12001......... Just in case you weren't aware of that. It gives you thebest

Quoted text (10 lines)

> of both worlds. I run my LWFF together with the TSW peds, myself. > > Bert > > > > > Don Burnette wrote: > > > Well I put off buying one for a long time, have been running a TSW2

which is > > non FF of course, it's built like a tank and I know it will last meforever. > > However, curiousity got too me, I was in Best Buy a couple of weekendsago > > and saw the Logitech Momo, fell in love with it, and upon nothing but > > impulse, I plunked 200 bucks down for it. > > I must say, I am in love with it. The FF brings a whole new dimension tosim

Quoted text (21 lines)

> > racing for me, especially in F12001. > > Perhaps I'll change my mind in a couple of months, but right now I am > > sticking with the Momo for my racing. Bout the only 2 sims I am running > > right now is N4 and F12001. > > > > Don Burnette > > > > "Anthony" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:a2h7u7$569$[email hidden]... > > > I've no experience of using force-feedback controllers - > > > steering wheel or otherwise. Are they really worth the money > > > in a racing sim ? > > > > > > > > > Comments welcome. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > >

If the implementation in the game is good (e.g. GPL, F1 2001), yes - no doubt. JensSchumi On 21 Jan 2002 14:17:43 GMT, [email hidden] (Anthony) wrote:

Quoted text (8 lines)

>I've no experience of using force-feedback controllers - >steering wheel or otherwise. Are they really worth the money >in a racing sim ? > > >Comments welcome. > >Thanks.

--------------------------------------------- LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: http://jensschumi.tripod.com/ GPLRank: -14.82 Monsters of GPL: sub 95

If the implementation in the game is good (e.g. GPL, F1 2001), yes - no doubt. JensSchumi --------------------------------------------- LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: [link lost in import] GPLRank: -14.82 Monsters of GPL: sub 95