The muscle cars of 1967

We all know 1967 was a miracle year for F1, GPL tells us so. But, how about street-legal cars in that year? I was a kid then, and I remember the Pontiac GTO ("Gran Turismo Omologato"), 400+ HP in a 7 liter V8 (IIRC). F1 cars in 1967 had the same 400+ HP, although in 3 liters. I don't know of any mass-produced car today that can rival an F1 in power. My question for the experts is, which cars in 1967 had more than 400 HP directly out of the dealer and could be licenced to drive in the street? Could you, for example, buy a Shelby Cobra 427 and drive it legally in the street? And, to put my question on topic, are there any simulations of those cars available for GPL? Can I drive a GTO or Cobra 427 in GPL tracks?

I'm not an expert, but the 427 tri-power Corvettes made over 400 hp. There were a few dealerships like Yenko and Dana that would swap these into Camaros. The 427 Ford engine was an option in a variety of FoMoCo vehicles, and the 427 SOHC motor was *supposedly* an option for a variety of FoMoCo vehicles... this motor was listed at over 600 hp. There are no confirmed factory cars that I am aware of. The 426 Hemi was an option on many Chrysler models, and probably made closer to 500 hp. Any of these cars could be driven on the street, of course. The 427 SOHC motor would not have lasted very long though, it really was a race engine. My Dad had a 383 Road Runner. He said it drank gas just sitting in the driveway. Gerald Valter Marcus Hilden <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > My question for > the experts is, which cars in 1967 had more than 400 HP directly out of the > dealer and could be licenced to drive in the street? Could you, for > example, buy a Shelby Cobra 427 and drive it legally in the street?

On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:24:25 -0200, Valter Marcus Hilden <[email hidden]> wrote: > >We all know 1967 was a miracle year for F1, GPL tells us so. > >But, how about street-legal cars in that year? I was a kid then, and I >remember the Pontiac GTO ("Gran Turismo Omologato"), 400+ HP in a 7 liter >V8 (IIRC). Riiiight, that's what GTO in pontiac GTO stands for... :-> Exactly what was that car Homologated for? Rather a ripoff from Ferrari 250 GTO name.

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>F1 cars in 1967 had the same 400+ HP, although in 3 liters. I don't know of >any mass-produced car today that can rival an F1 in power. My question for >the experts is, which cars in 1967 had more than 400 HP directly out of the >dealer and could be licenced to drive in the street? Could you, for >example, buy a Shelby Cobra 427 and drive it legally in the street? > >And, to put my question on topic, are there any simulations of those cars >available for GPL? Can I drive a GTO or Cobra 427 in GPL tracks?

The problem with the muscle cars IMHO, especially when it comes to simming, is that although they've got plenty of HP, the roadholding sucked and the weight made the straight line performance suffer anyway. But then again we have Driver, don't we? :) And you can test this in GPL: jack the car up to max on rideheight, use the softest springs and disconnect the anti-roll bars... Pretty close, eh? :-)

Don't forget you can't compare the horsepower numbers to todays numbers. Those were not SAE Horsepower ratings, but IIRC something like J-scale. THe automotive industry changed to SAE standards around 74-75 I think. If you convert the old HP numbers to todays SAE ratings its quite a bit lower. Valter Marcus Hilden <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > We all know 1967 was a miracle year for F1, GPL tells us so. > > But, how about street-legal cars in that year? I was a kid then, and I > remember the Pontiac GTO ("Gran Turismo Omologato"), 400+ HP in a 7 liter > V8 (IIRC). > > F1 cars in 1967 had the same 400+ HP, although in 3 liters. I don't know of > any mass-produced car today that can rival an F1 in power. My question for > the experts is, which cars in 1967 had more than 400 HP directly out of the > dealer and could be licenced to drive in the street? Could you, for > example, buy a Shelby Cobra 427 and drive it legally in the street? > > And, to put my question on topic, are there any simulations of those cars > available for GPL? Can I drive a GTO or Cobra 427 in GPL tracks? > >

> the weight made the straight line performance suffer >anyway. Huh? Have you ever had a ride in a true musclecar? The weight of the cars are often exaggerated. A Chevelle weighs in the neighborhood of 3500 - 3600 pounds, only slightly more than say, a new Camaro or Mustang. Now, something like an Impala is another story, but that's not a musclecar. Besides a Viper, ZO6 Vette, or other VERY expensive cars, show me a car that is affordable and can run in the mid 13's or lower in the quarter mile from the factory. Musclecars might not be technical marvels, but they sure aren't slow either. There are lots of aftermarket parts and swaps available that can make an old musclecar handle very well. A Chevelle special issue that I have from Super Chevy (?) showed the buildup of a 1970 Chevelle "G" machine and it is very impressive. So a sim that would let you upgrade your muscle car would be awesome, as long as the execution isn't as poor as MCO. Ryan Proud Owner of a 1970 El Camino

It was earlier than that, I think...like 72 or 73...if not 71... However...it is also widely held that many companies underrated their highest engines then by a good amount for insurance purposes. This seems to be held up by the fact that some magazines have, for the sake of it, built up to original specifications, classic king-of-the-hill engines like the 454 LS6...and dynoed them...and with SAE Net, (previous was SAE Gross - they could run the engine with no engine-driven accessories (external water pump even!), pull vacuum on the exhaust, etc etc...wasn't very representative of what went in the car...SAE gross specifies it as having to be exactly as it's installed in a car) the engines dynoed out to very close to what numbers they were given in their day. GM certainly pulled quite a few tricks on their truck line, given my mostly-original but somewhat-hopped-up 1970 GMC with a 4bbl 350 was rated at 255hp, yet my fastest 1/4 mile shows a mere 191hp after some tweaking...and I'm running a slightly better carb, more open intake and exhaust, and a bigger cam than it came with back in '70. =P Milhouse "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:c3%38.566$[email hidden]... > Don't forget you can't compare the horsepower numbers to todays numbers.Those were not SAE > Horsepower ratings, but IIRC something like J-scale. THe automotiveindustry changed to SAE > standards around 74-75 I think. If you convert the old HP numbers totodays SAE ratings its quite a

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> bit lower. > Valter Marcus Hilden <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > We all know 1967 was a miracle year for F1, GPL tells us so. > > > > But, how about street-legal cars in that year? I was a kid then, and I > > remember the Pontiac GTO ("Gran Turismo Omologato"), 400+ HP in a 7

liter > > V8 (IIRC). > > > > F1 cars in 1967 had the same 400+ HP, although in 3 liters. I don't knowof > > any mass-produced car today that can rival an F1 in power. My questionfor > > the experts is, which cars in 1967 had more than 400 HP directly out ofthe > > dealer and could be licenced to drive in the street? Could you, for > > example, buy a Shelby Cobra 427 and drive it legally in the street? > > > > And, to put my question on topic, are there any simulations of thosecars > > available for GPL? Can I drive a GTO or Cobra 427 in GPL tracks? > > > > > >

Yes, the Cobra was street legal. The '67 Vette came with a 427 that pushed out 475 HP, even more with dealer added options (up to 550 I think). Other cars like the '63 Olds Cutlass Jetfire put out plenty or horses and only weighed about 2700 lbs. It's easy to think of muscle cars as straight line only vehicles, but remember that they handled much better than other American street cars of the era. -- Slot Tweaks & Reviews www.slottweak.com "Valter Marcus Hilden" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > We all know 1967 was a miracle year for F1, GPL tells us so. > > But, how about street-legal cars in that year? I was a kid then, and I > remember the Pontiac GTO ("Gran Turismo Omologato"), 400+ HP in a 7 liter > V8 (IIRC). > > F1 cars in 1967 had the same 400+ HP, although in 3 liters. I don't know of > any mass-produced car today that can rival an F1 in power. My question for > the experts is, which cars in 1967 had more than 400 HP directly out of the > dealer and could be licenced to drive in the street? Could you, for > example, buy a Shelby Cobra 427 and drive it legally in the street? > > And, to put my question on topic, are there any simulations of those cars > available for GPL? Can I drive a GTO or Cobra 427 in GPL tracks? > >

In article <em048.78$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> > the weight made the straight line performance suffer > >anyway. > > Huh? Have you ever had a ride in a true musclecar? The weight of the > cars are often exaggerated. A Chevelle weighs in the neighborhood of 3500 - > 3600 pounds, only slightly more than say, a new Camaro or Mustang. Now, > something like an Impala is another story, but that's not a musclecar. > Besides a Viper, ZO6 Vette, or other VERY expensive cars, show me a car that > is affordable and can run in the mid 13's or lower in the quarter mile from > the factory. Musclecars might not be technical marvels, but they sure > aren't slow either. > There are lots of aftermarket parts and swaps available that can make an > old musclecar handle very well. A Chevelle special issue that I have from > Super Chevy (?) showed the buildup of a 1970 Chevelle "G" machine and it is > very impressive. So a sim that would let you upgrade your muscle car would > be awesome, as long as the execution isn't as poor as MCO. > > Ryan > Proud Owner of a 1970 El Camino > > >

You know the funny thing is, the "muscle cars" of today are much faster than all but the very limited editions of the 60s (such as the ZL1 Camaro, Yenko cars, etc.) Most of the most revered muscle cars of that era such as the 454 Chevelles, Z28s, 440 powered Mopars, etc ran the 1/4 mile in the low to mid 14 second range. Today, you can buy a Mustang Cobra, Camaro Z28 or SS, Trans Am, and so on that will run low to mid 13s straight off the showroom floor (my 1998 Pontiac Formula ran a best of 13.5@106 mph bone stock.) Of course the major advantage that the musclecars of yesteryear have over their modern counterparts is that it is VERY easy and VERY cheap to make them VERY fast. Take a '67 Camaro and add a Roots style blower (or NOS for even less money,) dual quad carbs, fat exhaust system, and some 10 inch slicks and you can go to the track and run 11s all day long for just a couple grand. To make the current Mustang/Camaro run the same kind of times will cost you many times more... Todd http://twalker.d2g.com

On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:02:55 -0700, "Ryan" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>> the weight made the straight line performance suffer >>anyway. > > Huh? Have you ever had a ride in a true musclecar? The weight of the >cars are often exaggerated. A Chevelle weighs in the neighborhood of 3500 - >3600 pounds, only slightly more than say, a new Camaro or Mustang. Now, >something like an Impala is another story, but that's not a musclecar. >Besides a Viper, ZO6 Vette, or other VERY expensive cars, show me a car that >is affordable and can run in the mid 13's or lower in the quarter mile from >the factory. Musclecars might not be technical marvels, but they sure >aren't slow either. > There are lots of aftermarket parts and swaps available that can make an >old musclecar handle very well. A Chevelle special issue that I have from >Super Chevy (?) showed the buildup of a 1970 Chevelle "G" machine and it is >very impressive. So a sim that would let you upgrade your muscle car would >be awesome, as long as the execution isn't as poor as MCO. > >Ryan >Proud Owner of a 1970 El Camino

Didn't mean to step on someone's toes, hehe. Actually, I wouldn't mind laying my hands on a Charger myself... But the point I was at least trying to make was that 400hp in a musclecar isn't the same as 400hp in hmm, most other (race-ish)cars, especially a 600kg single seater. Another thing was that the simming aspect would be somewhat limited. And as you said it's about 1/4-mile times. I'm about lap-times. ;-) Even still, I played a game on the Amiga that was something similar to what you suggested above, where you started out with an automatic Ford Falcon(ugh), and raced for cash to buy bigger and better. The name escapes me, though.

Since we're dreaming of streetable cars of that era, I'd love to see: 300 hp Yenko Corvair Mangusta/Pantera Chevy Cheetah Sumbeam Tiger Lamborgini Miura

<snip > Even still, I played a game on the Amiga that was something similar to > what you suggested above, where you started out with an automatic Ford > Falcon(ugh), and raced for cash to buy bigger and better. The name > escapes me, though. > Would that be Street Rod/Street Rod 2? AFAIK it was available on Amiga, C64 and PC. Quite good fun, if not exactly a simulator.... There's a project about to resurrect the game with rendered visuals, semi-3D tracks and so on, although it's only in an alpha stage. http://www.streetrod3.com/main.shtml (For those interested) Regards, Matt

Wow, someone after my own heart :) He even knew what GTO stood for! I used to buy and restore GTO's in the late 70's, when I was an Auto Mechanic, before becomming a Geek (thanks, US Navy :) ). My favorite was the last one I owned, the one I sold before joining the Navy, and the one I WISH I could still have and never had sold. A near mint-condition 1967 GTO in Aqua Blue with black interior. A/C, Power Windows, Hurst Dual-Gate... All the nice options. It was also very rare in that it was one of the few (252 total, I've been told) that had factory 4-piston Disc Brakes on the front. I still dream about this car from time to time :) -Larry "Valter Marcus Hilden" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > We all know 1967 was a miracle year for F1, GPL tells us so. > > But, how about street-legal cars in that year? I was a kid then, and I > remember the Pontiac GTO ("Gran Turismo Omologato"), 400+ HP in a 7 liter > V8 (IIRC). > > F1 cars in 1967 had the same 400+ HP, although in 3 liters. I don't know

of > any mass-produced car today that can rival an F1 in power. My question for > the experts is, which cars in 1967 had more than 400 HP directly out ofthe

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> dealer and could be licenced to drive in the street? Could you, for > example, buy a Shelby Cobra 427 and drive it legally in the street? > > And, to put my question on topic, are there any simulations of those cars > available for GPL? Can I drive a GTO or Cobra 427 in GPL tracks? > >

In article <PGM48.6789$[email hidden]>, "Larry \(The Other Larry\)" <[email hidden]> says...

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> Wow, someone after my own heart :) He even knew what GTO stood for! > > I used to buy and restore GTO's in the late 70's, when I was an Auto > Mechanic, before becomming a Geek (thanks, US Navy :) ). > > My favorite was the last one I owned, the one I sold before joining the > Navy, and the one I WISH I could still have and never had sold. > > A near mint-condition 1967 GTO in Aqua Blue with black interior. A/C, Power > Windows, Hurst Dual-Gate... All the nice options. > > It was also very rare in that it was one of the few (252 total, I've been > told) that had factory 4-piston Disc Brakes on the front. > > I still dream about this car from time to time :) > > -Larry

Wow Larry, good taste. The '67 is most definitely THE GTO in my opinion. My first experience in a musclecar was in a '70 GTO convertible. The car was gold with a black top and silver honeycomb mags. It was the fastest car that I had ever ridden in (I was 14 at the time -- 1985.) From that point on, I was a die hard muscle car nut. A friend of mine in high school had a '69 Chevelle and he and I would swap cars on Saturday nights (I drove an '85 RX7) just to get a different experience in each other's cars. His car handled like a boat compared to mine but it was a hell of a lot faster too. Good times... :-) Todd

Yessir.... There were faster GTO's than the 67, but there were NO years that had the clean, distinctive lines of the 67. The 66 came close, but it didn't have the clean tail-light panel that the 67 did. The 67 simply looked great from any angle you looked at it. And you weren't stuck with the 2-speed PowerGlide Auto in 67. That was definetely a good thing. Mine had the factory Turbo-400 Auto with the Hurst Dual-Gate. I did managed to win some trophies at the Old Dominion Speedway in Virginia with it :) It was totally stock except for a free flowing exhaust, a better fuel pump and a Holly double-pumper. The latter two were replaced out of necessity. Even on a 1/8 mile track like Old Dominion Speedway, I had a problem with the factory pump and QuadraJet running dry on me before the finish line. I didn't race it much. Probably about 6 weekends, simply as a hobby thing. I kept the car stock because I felt it was balanced good enough as is. That car had over 90,000 miles on it when I sold it, and you could never tell it. It showed very little wear anywhere. -Larry "Todd Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <PGM48.6789$[email hidden]>, "Larry > \(The Other Larry\)" <[email hidden]> says... > > Wow, someone after my own heart :) He even knew what GTO stood for! > > > > I used to buy and restore GTO's in the late 70's, when I was an Auto > > Mechanic, before becomming a Geek (thanks, US Navy :) ). > > > > My favorite was the last one I owned, the one I sold before joining the > > Navy, and the one I WISH I could still have and never had sold. > > > > A near mint-condition 1967 GTO in Aqua Blue with black interior. A/C,

Power > > Windows, Hurst Dual-Gate... All the nice options. > > > > It was also very rare in that it was one of the few (252 total, I'vebeen

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> > told) that had factory 4-piston Disc Brakes on the front. > > > > I still dream about this car from time to time :) > > > > -Larry > > > Wow Larry, good taste. The '67 is most definitely THE GTO in my opinion. > My first experience in a musclecar was in a '70 GTO convertible. The car > was gold with a black top and silver honeycomb mags. It was the fastest > car that I had ever ridden in (I was 14 at the time -- 1985.) From that > point on, I was a die hard muscle car nut. A friend of mine in high > school had a '69 Chevelle and he and I would swap cars on Saturday > nights (I drove an '85 RX7) just to get a different experience in each > other's cars. His car handled like a boat compared to mine but it was a > hell of a lot faster too. Good times... :-) > > Todd

... >"Valter Marcus Hilden" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> >> We all know 1967 was a miracle year for F1, GPL tells us so. Ah, I can still remember 1967; I was conceived that year, swimming and swimming, and I won!! Out of millions of competitors. F1 is much easier; just 21 drivers to beat (beside yourself). ;-) Don't know what BHP I had in my tail though... Ruud van Gaal Free car sim : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/