Naive Q. about FIA and online restrictions

I hear a lot in here about how the FIA prevents sim developers from developing proper Internet multiplayer modes for F1 games. I'm too lazy to search back into the dim RAS past so could anybody please provide me with a URL or two describing this restriction? Preferably right to the source rather than a "we've been told" or "it's been alleged" kind of page? ;) I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just curious about the reasoning behind this restriction. Rob

Rob Adams wrote: > > I hear a lot in here about how the FIA prevents sim developers from > developing proper Internet multiplayer modes for F1 games. I'm too lazy to > search back into the dim RAS past so could anybody please provide me with a > URL or two describing this restriction? www.all/in/davids/mind.com > Preferably right to the source > rather than a "we've been told" or "it's been alleged" kind of page? ;) > > I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just curious about the reasoning behind > this restriction. It's just an excuse that gets wheeled out by ubisoft and on behalf of ubisoft, by DGF.

"Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Rob Adams wrote: > > > > I hear a lot in here about how the FIA prevents sim developers from > > developing proper Internet multiplayer modes for F1 games. I'm too lazyto > > search back into the dim RAS past so could anybody please provide mewith a

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> > URL or two describing this restriction? > > www.all/in/davids/mind.com > > > Preferably right to the source > > rather than a "we've been told" or "it's been alleged" kind of page? ;) > > > > I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just curious about the reasoning

behind > > this restriction. > > It's just an excuse that gets wheeled out by ubisoft and on behalf of > ubisoft, by DGF. And EA Sports as well then. And Hasbro Doug

"Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Rob Adams wrote: > > > > I hear a lot in here about how the FIA prevents sim developers from > > developing proper Internet multiplayer modes for F1 games. I'm too lazyto > > search back into the dim RAS past so could anybody please provide mewith a

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> > URL or two describing this restriction? > > www.all/in/davids/mind.com > > > Preferably right to the source > > rather than a "we've been told" or "it's been alleged" kind of page? ;) > > > > I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just curious about the reasoning

behind > > this restriction. > > It's just an excuse that gets wheeled out by ubisoft and on behalf of > ubisoft, by DGF. Now now Gerry, this is the kind of fight I was trying not to start. DGF and I don't agree on much (anything?) but I believe there is SOME truth to the FIA restrictions. p.s. You ALMOST got me clicking that link, before I read it carefully ;)

Douglas Ellison wrote: > > It's just an excuse that gets wheeled out by ubisoft and on behalf of > > ubisoft, by DGF. > > And EA Sports as well then. And Hasbro > > Doug yeah, and them too.

I don't keep a file on every topic that gets talked about on r.a.s., so things I've read aren't loaded up and ready to go for a thread like this. I don't have secret tapes of conversations with FIA officials either. :-) I'll leave my opinion on what I've read and learned out of this post, and just give you a few things below. I won't bother to give my opinions on the FIA either, or examples of how they control every tiny detail of their sport. http://www.ubi.com/US/GamingZone/ Along with it's work with POD going back five years ago (excellent multiplay, dedicated servers, built in ranking sytem, and $10,000 tournament which I participated in), this site is pretty good evidence Ubi Soft strongly supports online multiplayer. Here are some quotes from Schumi who is the creator of Relay. He certainly knows a little bit about the Ubi Soft situation. The Reason for Ubisoft (Official) The reason Ubisoft didn't support us in any way was simply because they are bound by contract from 2 seperate parties, NOT to provide support. This is particularly the case with online play. They are forbidden by contract to even discuss the merits, methods, etc. Ubisoft (I talked to the head guys in charge of F1RC), wished that they could. Unfortunately they are forbidden by contract to even speak to me on the topic. I can understand this, and it is simply the terms Ubisoft are bound by in contract. Those are unfortunately the required terms for Ubi acquiring the FIA license. As best I can tell, Ubisoft are using VideoSystem's FIA license, not their own, per-se. Video Systems did not purchase/negotiate that second tier license (online play), and therefore are unable to support/create a game that uses the FIA license online. And more from Schumi: Hopefully I can provide some insight on the "Online Racing Genre Pitfalls." Perhaps even dispel some myths that seem to persist amongst the community. 1) Ubisoft was not permitted to even "promote" F1RC online, or any online capabilities thereof. That was a contractual limitation in their license. As such, Ubisoft could not supply us with an iota of support (without taking a serious business risk), <even though they really wanted to after seeing what we had to offer ;]>. So we basically had to hack the game to get it played online... which is why many of the features we have yet to show are not included or viewable currently. David G Fisher "Rob Adams" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:NX_38.2773$7n.5771@shaw-ty1... > I hear a lot in here about how the FIA prevents sim developers from > developing proper Internet multiplayer modes for F1 games. I'm too lazy to > search back into the dim RAS past so could anybody please provide me witha > URL or two describing this restriction? Preferably right to the source > rather than a "we've been told" or "it's been alleged" kind of page? ;) > > I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just curious about the reasoningbehind > this restriction. > > Rob > >

God you're an asshole sometimes. At least try and be funny. Read my other post in this thread and choke on it. Eldred? David G Fisher "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Rob Adams wrote: > > > > I hear a lot in here about how the FIA prevents sim developers from > > developing proper Internet multiplayer modes for F1 games. I'm too lazyto > > search back into the dim RAS past so could anybody please provide mewith a

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> > URL or two describing this restriction? > > www.all/in/davids/mind.com > > > Preferably right to the source > > rather than a "we've been told" or "it's been alleged" kind of page? ;) > > > > I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just curious about the reasoning

behind > > this restriction. > > It's just an excuse that gets wheeled out by ubisoft and on behalf of > ubisoft, by DGF.

Hi Rob Rob Adams wrote:

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> > > > It's just an excuse that gets wheeled out by ubisoft and on behalf of > > ubisoft, by DGF. > > Now now Gerry, this is the kind of fight I was trying not to start. > > DGF and I don't agree on much (anything?) but I believe there is SOME truth > to the FIA restrictions. > > p.s. You ALMOST got me clicking that link, before I read it carefully ;)

Sorry I can't give you a definitive source, but there were a phew press releases which stated 'licensing issues' for the lack of online play in some FIA stamped sims, and apparently, they 'couldn't say anymore than that', yeah right! To be honest, as far as online F1 is concerned, I really couldn't give two shits. Just think about the plankton it would attract anyway! I get all the quality online racing i could ever want within Vroc and my GPL league, i'm even considering an n4 league drive. So I won't shed a tear over the lack of F1 online. Gerry

And that's all legal is it? Tell you what, I'll just phone FIA and ask, shall I? Or do you want to do it? David G Fisher wrote: <SNIP>

Is what legal exactly? Is the Ubi Soft web site link where 1,100 people are playing online legal? Was the POD scene legal? Or is the contract between Ubi and the FIA legal. David G Fisher "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > And that's all legal is it? Tell you what, I'll just phone FIA and ask, > shall I? Or do you want to do it? > > David G Fisher wrote: > > <SNIP>

I have it on good authority, that a seperate fee along the lines of $5,000,000 payable to ... well Bernie's pocket in the final analysis is what it will cost for an out of the box fully implemented online facility. That is just for licencing and is non-exclusive. The price obviously rises if you want to negotiate an exclusive licence, putting aside the costs associated with setting up and administering the servers. The cost for the non-exclusive right to put F1 on the box and the names and likenesses of the cars, tracks and drivers is more than double this figure. THAT is the main reason why good online play is not included. If I was a developer, I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend time working online efficiency into the code if you can't afford to pay for the right to include it in the first place. Bernie has priced it so high that it's not economically viable. Oh, and if it's in the code and optimised for the net without the payment of the licence fee, you can get sued six ways to sunday by the FIA. All the best Ian www.simbin.com "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > And that's all legal is it? Tell you what, I'll just phone FIA and ask, > shall I? Or do you want to do it? > > David G Fisher wrote: > > <SNIP>

IS relay legal? David G Fisher wrote: <snip>

Ian Bell wrote: > > I have it on good authority, that a seperate fee along the lines of > $5,000,000 payable to ... well Bernie's pocket in the final analysis is what > it will cost for an out of the box fully implemented online facility. That's $5,000,000 which no software co. has ever paid or is ever likely to. Does your source know (a) Why the price is so punitively high? And (b) If it might be lowered so the FIA at least get some money for that part of the license and F1 fans get race each other? Why is it that, ATM, everybody loses? <SNIP> > The cost for the non-exclusive right to put F1 on the box and the names and > likenesses of the cars, tracks and drivers is more than double this figure. Nice to see the FIA are killing online sim racing just like they've killed so many other categories of the RL sport! > THAT is the main reason why good online play is not included. If I was a > developer, I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend time working online > efficiency into the code if you can't afford to pay for the right to include > it in the first place. Bernie has priced it so high that it's not > economically viable. So why has he done that then? > Oh, and if it's in the code and optimised for the net without the payment of > the licence fee, you can get sued six ways to sunday by the FIA. What about a 3rd party taking, say, F1RC and hacking it to work online, is that legal? Cheers Gerry

>Does your source know (a) Why the price is so punitively high? And > (b) If it might be lowered so the FIA at least get some money for that > part of the license and F1 fans get race each other? No, he can't speak for Bernie, but my take on it is that Bernie has turned F1 into the multi-billion dollar glitzy international circus it is, by setting prices and constantly increasing them until either a) the original party can't afford them and another, richer party takes over, or b) the deal falls through altogether (a la Driver, although that was probably a good thing :-) ) I don't think he understands the concept of pricing to the market. It's always been all or nothing with him as far as I can see... I DO know, that F1 Games will get a little thin on the ground over the next few years, as those publishers that can afford the 'big bucks' will be fighting tooth and nail for exclusive contracts when the current agreements expire. >Nice to see the FIA are killing online sim racing just like they've > killed so many other categories of the RL sport! Couldn't agree more, though Bernie's experience has always been that someone with the requisite cash almost always shows up in the end. > So why has he done that then? Again, because he can, and often gets it in the end. > What about a 3rd party taking, say, F1RC and hacking it to work online, > is that legal? No, it's illegal on two counts - one you'll be modifying Ubi's code without permission. And you can bet your arse that Ubi won't give it or they'll be liable for the licence fee, and two, if you add the facility, you are basically providing what the Games manufacturers omitted because they couldn't afford it, and therefore YOU will be liable to the payment to Bernie's coffers. That's not to say that if you did, you won't get away with it. There are a few systems out there... Cheers Ian www.simbin.com "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Ian Bell wrote: > > > > I have it on good authority, that a seperate fee along the lines of > > $5,000,000 payable to ... well Bernie's pocket in the final analysis iswhat

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> > it will cost for an out of the box fully implemented online facility. > > That's $5,000,000 which no software co. has ever paid or is ever likely > to. Does your source know (a) Why the price is so punitively high? And > (b) If it might be lowered so the FIA at least get some money for that > part of the license and F1 fans get race each other? > > Why is it that, ATM, everybody loses? > > <SNIP> > > > The cost for the non-exclusive right to put F1 on the box and the names

and > > likenesses of the cars, tracks and drivers is more than double thisfigure.

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> > Nice to see the FIA are killing online sim racing just like they've > killed so many other categories of the RL sport! > > > THAT is the main reason why good online play is not included. If I was a > > developer, I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend time working online > > efficiency into the code if you can't afford to pay for the right to

include > > it in the first place. Bernie has priced it so high that it's not > > economically viable. > > So why has he done that then? > > > Oh, and if it's in the code and optimised for the net without thepayment of

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> > the licence fee, you can get sued six ways to sunday by the FIA. > > What about a 3rd party taking, say, F1RC and hacking it to work online, > is that legal? > > Cheers > > Gerry

Ian Bell wrote: > No, he can't speak for Bernie, but my take on it is that Bernie has turned > F1 into the multi-billion dollar glitzy international circus it is, by > setting prices and constantly increasing them until either a) the original > party can't afford them and another, richer party takes over, or b) the deal > falls through altogether (a la Driver, although that was probably a good > thing :-) ) Agreed Ian, British GP £350 a forking ticket?!?! They only want the filthy rich there on race day. Bernie wants the rest of us scum to watch on TV were we can be counted towards the viewing figures! And your right about F1 sims thinning out too. There'll be plenty of arcade ones on the consoles for the kids to play though. Anyway, I don't care, feel sorry for those that do though (DGF), I've got my historic F1 and Nascar, oh and WSC soon too. F1 will in it's current state will disappear up it's own areshole in the end anyway (just like DGF did recently), good riddance to a piss poor 'racing' (hah!) spectacle I say :). It's more a single file parade of high-tech, gunk around some of the dullest circuits in motor racing history. Historic racing is the future of RL motorsport too, IMHO of course. ;) Gerry

>F1 will in it's current state will disappear up it's own areshole in the >end anyway (just like DGF did recently), good riddance to a piss poor >'racing' (hah!) spectacle I say :). It's more a single file parade of >high-tech, gunk around some of the dullest circuits in motor racing >history. LOL Wonderfully worded Gerry :-) "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... Ian Bell wrote: > No, he can't speak for Bernie, but my take on it is that Bernie has turned > F1 into the multi-billion dollar glitzy international circus it is, by > setting prices and constantly increasing them until either a) the original > party can't afford them and another, richer party takes over, or b) thedeal > falls through altogether (a la Driver, although that was probably a good > thing :-) ) Agreed Ian, British GP �350 a forking ticket?!?! They only want the filthy rich there on race day. Bernie wants the rest of us scum to watch on TV were we can be counted towards the viewing figures! And your right about F1 sims thinning out too. There'll be plenty of arcade ones on the consoles for the kids to play though. Anyway, I don't care, feel sorry for those that do though (DGF), I've got my historic F1 and Nascar, oh and WSC soon too. F1 will in it's current state will disappear up it's own areshole in the end anyway (just like DGF did recently), good riddance to a piss poor 'racing' (hah!) spectacle I say :). It's more a single file parade of high-tech, gunk around some of the dullest circuits in motor racing history. Historic racing is the future of RL motorsport too, IMHO of course. ;) Gerry

Ian Bell wrote:

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> > >F1 will, in it's current state, disappear up it's own areshole in the > >end anyway (just like DGF did recently), good riddance to a piss poor > >'racing' (hah!) spectacle I say :). It's more a single file parade of > >high-tech, gunk around some of the dullest circuits in motor racing > >history. > > LOL > Wonderfully worded Gerry :-)

Hehee, I fear I didn't go far enough, maybe tomorrow. ;) Gerry

Yea, F1 is going to go down the toilet real soon. You're such a genius. In this thread, you were completely wrong, and I was 100% right. You've made yourself look like a fool with the way you attacked me. You were wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong wrong. You know nothing. You sound very old and dusty too. David G Fisher "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... Ian Bell wrote: > No, he can't speak for Bernie, but my take on it is that Bernie has turned > F1 into the multi-billion dollar glitzy international circus it is, by > setting prices and constantly increasing them until either a) the original > party can't afford them and another, richer party takes over, or b) thedeal > falls through altogether (a la Driver, although that was probably a good > thing :-) ) Agreed Ian, British GP �350 a forking ticket?!?! They only want the filthy rich there on race day. Bernie wants the rest of us scum to watch on TV were we can be counted towards the viewing figures! And your right about F1 sims thinning out too. There'll be plenty of arcade ones on the consoles for the kids to play though. Anyway, I don't care, feel sorry for those that do though (DGF), I've got my historic F1 and Nascar, oh and WSC soon too. F1 will in it's current state will disappear up it's own areshole in the end anyway (just like DGF did recently), good riddance to a piss poor 'racing' (hah!) spectacle I say :). It's more a single file parade of high-tech, gunk around some of the dullest circuits in motor racing history. Historic racing is the future of RL motorsport too, IMHO of course. ;) Gerry

David G Fisher wrote: > You were wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong wrong. Grow up and go away. Condescendingly yours GDA

David G Fisher wrote: > You were wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong wrong. Grow up and go away. Condescendingly yours GDA

Relay is legal by virtue of some fancy legal footwork planned long in advance to the release. The reasons are long winded, boring, and dry (puts me to sleep). But rest assured we have investigated it. Cheers, Schumi "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > IS relay legal? > > David G Fisher wrote: > <snip>

Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> writes: > F1 will in it's current state will disappear up it's own areshole in the > end anyway (just like DGF did recently), good riddance to a piss poor > 'racing' (hah!) spectacle I say :). It's more a single file parade of > high-tech, gunk around some of the dullest circuits in motor racing > history. I didn't know F1 raced on ovals. -- -asbjxrn

If you could please do your homework before accusing us of being illegal, it would be greatly appreciated :). UbiSoft have full knowledge of what we have done, and expressed disappointment that they cannot do anything to help us increase the online playability, etc. for F1RC. Indeed the foot soldiers (and even some management) at Ubi are scratching their heads at the suits who forked out the gobs of money for the basic license, when so much more could be done without it (and a better bottom-line too I might add). Ubisoft are the only ones who could "conceivably" have issues with us, but by virtue of how Relay makes F1RC playable online... we avoid all liability (we simply use what Ubi themselves provided without alterations to code, etc.). Not to mention... Ubi don't really WANT to shut us down... they like what we have done for F1RC (given the circumstances... limited) and wish us well. Cheers, Schumi "Ian Bell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fwg48.16382$[email hidden]...

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> >Does your source know (a) Why the price is so punitively high? And > > (b) If it might be lowered so the FIA at least get some money for that > > part of the license and F1 fans get race each other? > > No, he can't speak for Bernie, but my take on it is that Bernie has turned > F1 into the multi-billion dollar glitzy international circus it is, by > setting prices and constantly increasing them until either a) the original > party can't afford them and another, richer party takes over, or b) the

deal > falls through altogether (a la Driver, although that was probably a good > thing :-) ) > I don't think he understands the concept of pricing to the market. It's > always been all or nothing with him as far as I can see... > I DO know, that F1 Games will get a little thin on the ground over thenext > few years, as those publishers that can afford the 'big bucks' will be > fighting tooth and nail for exclusive contracts when the currentagreements > expire. > > >Nice to see the FIA are killing online sim racing just like they've > > killed so many other categories of the RL sport! > > Couldn't agree more, though Bernie's experience has always been thatsomeone

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> with the requisite cash almost always shows up in the end. > > > So why has he done that then? > > Again, because he can, and often gets it in the end. > > > What about a 3rd party taking, say, F1RC and hacking it to work online, > > is that legal? > > No, it's illegal on two counts - one you'll be modifying Ubi's code

without

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> permission. And you can bet your arse that Ubi won't give it or they'll be > liable for the licence fee, and two, if you add the facility, you are > basically providing what the Games manufacturers omitted because they > couldn't afford it, and therefore YOU will be liable to the payment to > Bernie's coffers. > > That's not to say that if you did, you won't get away with it. There are a > few systems out there... > > Cheers > > > Ian > www.simbin.com > > > > > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > Ian Bell wrote: > > > > > > I have it on good authority, that a seperate fee along the lines of > > > $5,000,000 payable to ... well Bernie's pocket in the final analysis

is

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> what > > > it will cost for an out of the box fully implemented online facility. > > > > That's $5,000,000 which no software co. has ever paid or is ever likely > > to. Does your source know (a) Why the price is so punitively high? And > > (b) If it might be lowered so the FIA at least get some money for that > > part of the license and F1 fans get race each other? > > > > Why is it that, ATM, everybody loses? > > > > <SNIP> > > > > > The cost for the non-exclusive right to put F1 on the box and the

names

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> and > > > likenesses of the cars, tracks and drivers is more than double this > figure. > > > > Nice to see the FIA are killing online sim racing just like they've > > killed so many other categories of the RL sport! > > > > > THAT is the main reason why good online play is not included. If I was

a

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> > > developer, I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend time working online > > > efficiency into the code if you can't afford to pay for the right to > include > > > it in the first place. Bernie has priced it so high that it's not > > > economically viable. > > > > So why has he done that then? > > > > > Oh, and if it's in the code and optimised for the net without the > payment of > > > the licence fee, you can get sued six ways to sunday by the FIA. > > > > What about a 3rd party taking, say, F1RC and hacking it to work online, > > is that legal? > > > > Cheers > > > > Gerry > >

I may not agree with you on a lot of topics, but you're 100% correct in my view here. The FIA simply want to keep their cards to their chest with online multiplayer. Maybe they have some future plans to license an inhouse setup (as Ian alluded to) or some other money grabbing plans. But I have no doubt that they have separate licensing agreements for multiplayer that are priced out of the reach of the developers. It simply sucks. And I blame Bernie. Rafe Mc On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 23:06:15 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I don't keep a file on every topic that gets talked about on r.a.s., so >things I've read aren't loaded up and ready to go for a thread like this. I >don't have secret tapes of conversations with FIA officials either. :-) I'll >leave my opinion on what I've read and learned out of this post, and just >give you a few things below. I won't bother to give my opinions on the FIA >either, or examples of how they control every tiny detail of their sport. > >http://www.ubi.com/US/GamingZone/ Along with it's work with POD going back >five years ago (excellent multiplay, dedicated servers, built in ranking >sytem, and $10,000 tournament which I participated in), this site is pretty >good evidence Ubi Soft strongly supports online multiplayer. > >Here are some quotes from Schumi who is the creator of Relay. He certainly >knows a little bit about the Ubi Soft situation. > >The Reason for Ubisoft (Official) >The reason Ubisoft didn't support us in any way was simply because they are >bound by contract from 2 seperate parties, NOT to provide support. This is >particularly the case with online play. They are forbidden by contract to >even discuss the merits, methods, etc. > >Ubisoft (I talked to the head guys in charge of F1RC), wished that they >could. Unfortunately they are forbidden by contract to even speak to me on >the topic. > >I can understand this, and it is simply the terms Ubisoft are bound by in >contract. Those are unfortunately the required terms for Ubi acquiring the >FIA license. > >As best I can tell, Ubisoft are using VideoSystem's FIA license, not their >own, per-se. Video Systems did not purchase/negotiate that second tier >license (online play), and therefore are unable to support/create a game >that uses the FIA license online. > >And more from Schumi: > >Hopefully I can provide some insight on the "Online Racing Genre Pitfalls." >Perhaps even dispel some myths that seem to persist amongst the community. > >1) Ubisoft was not permitted to even "promote" F1RC online, or any online >capabilities thereof. That was a contractual limitation in their license. As >such, Ubisoft could not supply us with an iota of support (without taking a >serious business risk), <even though they really wanted to after seeing what >we had to offer ;]>. So we basically had to hack the game to get it played >online... which is why many of the features we have yet to show are not >included or viewable currently. > >David G Fisher

>I didn't know F1 raced on ovals. hehe, nice one. Rafe Mc

"Asbjørn Bjørnstad" wrote:

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> > Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> writes: > > > F1 will, in it's current state, disappear up it's own areshole in the > > end anyway (just like DGF did recently), good riddance to a piss poor > > 'racing' (hah!) spectacle I say :). It's more a single file parade of > > high-tech, gunk around some of the dullest circuits in motor racing > > history. > > I didn't know F1 raced on ovals.

Indy.

Rafe McAuliffe wrote:

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> > I may not agree with you on a lot of topics, but you're 100% correct > in my view here. > > The FIA simply want to keep their cards to their chest with online > multiplayer. Maybe they have some future plans to license an inhouse > setup (as Ian alluded to) or some other money grabbing plans. But I > have no doubt that they have separate licensing agreements for > multiplayer that are priced out of the reach of the developers. > > It simply sucks. And I blame Bernie.

On 2nd July 2001 in this very newsgroup I wrote: >>The last time I spoke to BRD they said they were planing, along with the FIAand Bernie, to implement some crappy live ghost mode, with telemetry from the real F1 cars being hooked up to some future 'pay & play' F1 online 'simulator'.<< >>Of course they told me it was a secret and not to tell anyone. They alsosaid that as a was one of their first customers I could test some of their new products, as a kind of 'official' test driver. I accepted eagerly and never heard from them again :(<< >>Still, i'm not bitter.<<

"Schumi" wrote: > Indeed the foot soldiers (and even some > management) at Ubi are scratching their heads at the suits who forkedout > the gobs of money for the basic license, when so much more could bedone > without it (and a better bottom-line too I might add). I guess it is hard to look beyond our desire for a great online racing sim. If it was Formula Papyrus, Ubisoft Racing League whatever, with the best physics, graphics, sound and online code I would be more than happy. The fact I am not driving representations of real cars would not bother me, nor would real tracks. In fact the track design could suit online play more than replicas of existing ones. I am sure a few companies would endorse advertising - even if they are not currently into motorsport per se. The sim itself could provide the toolset for online league admins. It need provide no paint kit, track designer - this would make it open for crticism from the FIA etc. The third party community are well adept at converting to replicate real cars & tracks. So I am happy - I guess many on RAS would be happy. The big question is will Joe Public wandering in to EB be tempted to part with their money based on the box cover and promise of the greatest PC racing experience (then they ALL say that don't they) - or will they pick up the box next to it showing F1 cars and F1 drivers - unaware that the multiplayer option on the box has been restricted by the FIA etc. I guess this is what "the suits" are trying to predict. I just hope that they view licensing costs as simply unacceptable and go the way I have described. They just have to do it properly - not like Ubisofts attempt with Monaco Racing where the cars looked like kiddie painted F1 cars and put joe public and the die hard simmers off. From a single player perspective a ficticious series could be more immersive - Trying to match simulating reality in terms of car & driver performance is impossible. Hence third party updates to ability ratings after each GP. Racing against an unknown name is not that unusual for drivers moving between racing series and countries. You will soon get to know who your arch rival is. Attempts to use names like Mika Hilkanin should also be avoided! My 2 pence Tony

Hi Schumi, nice to see you mate. I wasn't accusing you of anything. :-) If you read the question I answered it said: > What about a 3rd party taking, say, F1RC and hacking it to work online, > is that legal? Notice that he said 'hacking' it to work online. When I said it would be illegal, I meant of course, without the consent of the software company and secondly, you didn't do any hacking... so there's not an issue. Sorry if I was a bit unclear here. All the best! Ian "Schumi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:kJs48.104365$[email hidden]... > If you could please do your homework before accusing us of being illegal,it

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> would be greatly appreciated :). > > UbiSoft have full knowledge of what we have done, and expressed > disappointment that they cannot do anything to help us increase the online > playability, etc. for F1RC. Indeed the foot soldiers (and even some > management) at Ubi are scratching their heads at the suits who forked out > the gobs of money for the basic license, when so much more could be done > without it (and a better bottom-line too I might add). > > Ubisoft are the only ones who could "conceivably" have issues with us, but > by virtue of how Relay makes F1RC playable online... we avoid all

liability > (we simply use what Ubi themselves provided without alterations to code, > etc.). Not to mention... Ubi don't really WANT to shut us down... theylike > what we have done for F1RC (given the circumstances... limited) and wishus

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> well. > > Cheers, > Schumi > > > "Ian Bell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:fwg48.16382$[email hidden]... > > >Does your source know (a) Why the price is so punitively high? And > > > (b) If it might be lowered so the FIA at least get some money for that > > > part of the license and F1 fans get race each other? > > > > No, he can't speak for Bernie, but my take on it is that Bernie has

turned > > F1 into the multi-billion dollar glitzy international circus it is, by > > setting prices and constantly increasing them until either a) theoriginal

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> > party can't afford them and another, richer party takes over, or b) the > deal > > falls through altogether (a la Driver, although that was probably a good > > thing :-) ) > > I don't think he understands the concept of pricing to the market. It's > > always been all or nothing with him as far as I can see... > > I DO know, that F1 Games will get a little thin on the ground over the > next > > few years, as those publishers that can afford the 'big bucks' will be > > fighting tooth and nail for exclusive contracts when the current > agreements > > expire. > > > > >Nice to see the FIA are killing online sim racing just like they've > > > killed so many other categories of the RL sport! > > > > Couldn't agree more, though Bernie's experience has always been that > someone > > with the requisite cash almost always shows up in the end. > > > > > So why has he done that then? > > > > Again, because he can, and often gets it in the end. > > > > > What about a 3rd party taking, say, F1RC and hacking it to work

online, > > > is that legal? > > > > No, it's illegal on two counts - one you'll be modifying Ubi's code > without > > permission. And you can bet your arse that Ubi won't give it or they'llbe > > liable for the licence fee, and two, if you add the facility, you are > > basically providing what the Games manufacturers omitted because they > > couldn't afford it, and therefore YOU will be liable to the payment to > > Bernie's coffers. > > > > That's not to say that if you did, you won't get away with it. There area

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> > few systems out there... > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Ian > > www.simbin.com > > > > > > > > > > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > Ian Bell wrote: > > > > > > > > I have it on good authority, that a seperate fee along the lines of > > > > $5,000,000 payable to ... well Bernie's pocket in the final analysis > is > > what > > > > it will cost for an out of the box fully implemented online

facility. > > > > > > That's $5,000,000 which no software co. has ever paid or is everlikely

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> > > to. Does your source know (a) Why the price is so punitively high? And > > > (b) If it might be lowered so the FIA at least get some money for that > > > part of the license and F1 fans get race each other? > > > > > > Why is it that, ATM, everybody loses? > > > > > > <SNIP> > > > > > > > The cost for the non-exclusive right to put F1 on the box and the > names > > and > > > > likenesses of the cars, tracks and drivers is more than double this > > figure. > > > > > > Nice to see the FIA are killing online sim racing just like they've > > > killed so many other categories of the RL sport! > > > > > > > THAT is the main reason why good online play is not included. If I

was

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> a > > > > developer, I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend time working online > > > > efficiency into the code if you can't afford to pay for the right to > > include > > > > it in the first place. Bernie has priced it so high that it's not > > > > economically viable. > > > > > > So why has he done that then? > > > > > > > Oh, and if it's in the code and optimised for the net without the > > payment of > > > > the licence fee, you can get sued six ways to sunday by the FIA. > > > > > > What about a 3rd party taking, say, F1RC and hacking it to work

online,

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> > > is that legal? > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Gerry > > > > > >

Ian/Schumi Ian Bell wrote:

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> > Hi Schumi, nice to see you mate. > I wasn't accusing you of anything. :-) > If you read the question I answered it said: > > What about a 3rd party taking, say, F1RC and hacking it to work online, > > is that legal? > > Notice that he said 'hacking' it to work online. When I said it would be > illegal, I meant of course, without the consent of the software company and > secondly, you didn't do any hacking... so there's not an issue. > > Sorry if I was a bit unclear here.

David Fisher quoted Schumi thus:

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>1) Ubisoft was not permitted to even "promote" F1RC online, or any online >capabilities thereof. That was a contractual limitation in their license. As >such, Ubisoft could not supply us with an iota of support (without taking a >serious business risk), <even though they really wanted to after seeing what >we had to offer ;]>. So we basically had to hack the game to get it played >online... which is why many of the features we have yet to show are not >included or viewable currently.

Note the word 'hack'. Cheers Gerry

Rafe McAuliffe wrote: > > >I didn't know F1 raced on ovals. > > hehe, nice one. > > Rafe Mc Question for you, Rafe. Re: Indianapolis F1 circuit. What's the most exiting part of that track? Is it... (a) The high speed banking. or... (b) The slow, twisting, left and right infield section.

oops, I'll shut up now... "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Ian/Schumi > > Ian Bell wrote: > > > > Hi Schumi, nice to see you mate. > > I wasn't accusing you of anything. :-) > > If you read the question I answered it said: > > > What about a 3rd party taking, say, F1RC and hacking it to work

online, > > > is that legal? > > > > Notice that he said 'hacking' it to work online. When I said it would be > > illegal, I meant of course, without the consent of the software companyand

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> > secondly, you didn't do any hacking... so there's not an issue. > > > > Sorry if I was a bit unclear here. > > David Fisher quoted Schumi thus: > > >1) Ubisoft was not permitted to even "promote" F1RC online, or any online > >capabilities thereof. That was a contractual limitation in their license.

As > >such, Ubisoft could not supply us with an iota of support (without takinga > >serious business risk), <even though they really wanted to after seeingwhat > >we had to offer ;]>. So we basically had to hack the game to get itplayed

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> >online... which is why many of the features we have yet to show are not > >included or viewable currently. > > Note the word 'hack'. > > Cheers > > Gerry

Well, considering an F1 car takes the banking absolutely flat out, it's got to be slow twisting infield section where the cars were spinning out ;) -- Ian P <email invalid due to spam> "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Re: Indianapolis F1 circuit. > > What's the most exiting part of that track? > > Is it... > > (a) The high speed banking. > > or... > > (b) The slow, twisting, left and right infield section.

A lot of the PC F1 games are also made for the consoles. A fictitious F1 racer for the console probably won't sell, and there's no way to edit them. David G Fisher "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5Cw48.561$[email hidden]...

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> "Schumi" wrote: > > Indeed the foot soldiers (and even some > > management) at Ubi are scratching their heads at the suits who forked > out > > the gobs of money for the basic license, when so much more could be > done > > without it (and a better bottom-line too I might add). > > I guess it is hard to look beyond our desire for a great online racing > sim. If it was Formula Papyrus, Ubisoft Racing League whatever, with the > best physics, graphics, sound and online code I would be more than > happy. The fact I am not driving representations of real cars would not > bother me, nor would real tracks. In fact the track design could suit > online play more than replicas of existing ones. I am sure a few > companies would endorse advertising - even if they are not currently > into motorsport per se. > > The sim itself could provide the toolset for online league admins. > > It need provide no paint kit, track designer - this would make it open > for crticism from the FIA etc. The third party community are well adept > at converting to replicate real cars & tracks. > > So I am happy - I guess many on RAS would be happy. The big question is > will Joe Public wandering in to EB be tempted to part with their money > based on the box cover and promise of the greatest PC racing experience > (then they ALL say that don't they) - or will they pick up the box next > to it showing F1 cars and F1 drivers - unaware that the multiplayer > option on the box has been restricted by the FIA etc. > > I guess this is what "the suits" are trying to predict. I just hope that > they view licensing costs as simply unacceptable and go the way I have > described. They just have to do it properly - not like Ubisofts attempt > with Monaco Racing where the cars looked like kiddie painted F1 cars and > put joe public and the die hard simmers off. > > From a single player perspective a ficticious series could be more > immersive - Trying to match simulating reality in terms of car & driver > performance is impossible. Hence third party updates to ability ratings > after each GP. Racing against an unknown name is not that unusual for > drivers moving between racing series and countries. You will soon get to > know who your arch rival is. Attempts to use names like Mika Hilkanin > should also be avoided! > > My 2 pence > > Tony > >

I can't speak for Schumi, but what I think he meant when he said he hacked it to play online was a reference to the way an IP address is put into the game. In F1RC, even though there is a place to type in an IP address for an TCP/IP game, nothing happens when you try to do it. You have to put the IP address into a game file. Relay does that for you. Ubi Soft actually snuck this little work around into the game apparently. Does that sound like a co. that doesn't care about multiplay in auto sims? David G Fisher "Ian Bell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:RTA48.18876$[email hidden]...

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> oops, I'll shut up now... > > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Ian/Schumi > > > > Ian Bell wrote: > > > > > > Hi Schumi, nice to see you mate. > > > I wasn't accusing you of anything. :-) > > > If you read the question I answered it said: > > > > What about a 3rd party taking, say, F1RC and hacking it to work > online, > > > > is that legal? > > > > > > Notice that he said 'hacking' it to work online. When I said it would

be > > > illegal, I meant of course, without the consent of the softwarecompany

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> and > > > secondly, you didn't do any hacking... so there's not an issue. > > > > > > Sorry if I was a bit unclear here. > > > > David Fisher quoted Schumi thus: > > > > >1) Ubisoft was not permitted to even "promote" F1RC online, or any

online > > >capabilities thereof. That was a contractual limitation in theirlicense. > As > > >such, Ubisoft could not supply us with an iota of support (withouttaking

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> a > > >serious business risk), <even though they really wanted to after seeing > what > > >we had to offer ;]>. So we basically had to hack the game to get it > played > > >online... which is why many of the features we have yet to show are not > > >included or viewable currently. > > > > Note the word 'hack'. > > > > Cheers > > > > Gerry > >

In article <[email hidden]>, Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> writes: >I get all the quality online racing i could ever want within Vroc and my >GPL league, i'm even considering an n4 league drive. So I won't shed a >tear over the lack of F1 online. I *do* wonder about a point that DGF raised some time ago. GPL, N4, and even SCGT are a little 'smoother' to control than F1 2001, GP3, or F1RC. Meaning that multiplayer games with the F1 sims would be wreckfests, with very little QUALITY racing. Considering that an F1 car seems to 'snap' out of control suddenly, I tend to agree with that. Problem is, we really CAN'T find out for sure, because none of the manufacturers even give us that OPTION. :( I'd like to try it. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <Qr048.838$[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: >God you're an asshole sometimes. At least try and be funny. > >Read my other post in this thread and choke on it. > >Eldred? > What? I didn't say anything... That's between you and Gerry. Rob even prefaced his question by saying he wasn't trying to start a flame war. Question: If Gerry had said "I *think* it's an excuse given by DGF" or "DGF says this, but I don't believe him", would that have been better? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <Hr048.836$[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: >http://www.ubi.com/US/GamingZone/ Along with it's work with POD going back >five years ago (excellent multiplay, dedicated servers, built in ranking >sytem, and $10,000 tournament which I participated in), this site is pretty >good evidence Ubi Soft strongly supports online multiplayer. > I checked that site - unfortunately I couldn't find a mention of POD multiplayer. Not surprising though, if the game is 5 years old... :( How many people at one time did it support?

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>As best I can tell, Ubisoft are using VideoSystem's FIA license, not their >own, per-se. Video Systems did not purchase/negotiate that second tier >license (online play), and therefore are unable to support/create a game >that uses the FIA license online. > >And more from Schumi: > >Hopefully I can provide some insight on the "Online Racing Genre Pitfalls." >Perhaps even dispel some myths that seem to persist amongst the community. > >1) Ubisoft was not permitted to even "promote" F1RC online, or any online >capabilities thereof. That was a contractual limitation in their license. As >such, Ubisoft could not supply us with an iota of support (without taking a >serious business risk), <even though they really wanted to after seeing what >we had to offer ;]>. So we basically had to hack the game to get it played >online... which is why many of the features we have yet to show are not >included or viewable currently. > >David G Fisher

Does Ubisoft 'take heat' from the FIA because of the F1 Relay? Or even simply because we have these discussions? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

David G Fisher wrote:

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> > I can't speak for Schumi, but what I think he meant when he said he hacked > it to play online was a reference to the way an IP address is put into the > game. In F1RC, even though there is a place to type in an IP address for an > TCP/IP game, nothing happens when you try to do it. You have to put the IP > address into a game file. Relay does that for you. > > Ubi Soft actually snuck this little work around into the game apparently. > Does that sound like a co. that doesn't care about multiplay in auto sims?

Doesn't sound like a Co. that's quaking in it's boots because of FIA licensing issues either. So they're to scared to even talk about net play, but they're more than happy to leave the backdoor open for it to be implemented by a 3rd party as an unsupported (by them) and unpaid for (by them) option. Is that legal?

Poor choice of words on my part. "Hack" is rather general, albeit usually associated with undesirable practices. My bad. What I meant by "hack" is that we basically just peeked into the code... found out what made it tick, and based on that we were able to feed the game what it wanted to play it online. Indeed, a person is more than welcome (even by virtue of copyrights, patents, etc.) to peer into how someone else's stuff works. Indeed you can rip it to pieces and claim to the world "I figured it out.... I know how it works..." and even rub it in the copyright holder's face. It's what you do with that new knowledge after the fact that opens up liability. In the F1RC case... we do not technically "write anything based on the game" outside of what already resides on the machine with purpose. Meaning: Ubi put it out there for us to find... we found it, and used it. Sorry for the confusion :) Cheers, Schumi "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Ian/Schumi > > Ian Bell wrote: > > > > Hi Schumi, nice to see you mate. > > I wasn't accusing you of anything. :-) > > If you read the question I answered it said: > > > What about a 3rd party taking, say, F1RC and hacking it to work

online, > > > is that legal? > > > > Notice that he said 'hacking' it to work online. When I said it would be > > illegal, I meant of course, without the consent of the software companyand

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> > secondly, you didn't do any hacking... so there's not an issue. > > > > Sorry if I was a bit unclear here. > > David Fisher quoted Schumi thus: > > >1) Ubisoft was not permitted to even "promote" F1RC online, or any online > >capabilities thereof. That was a contractual limitation in their license.

As > >such, Ubisoft could not supply us with an iota of support (without takinga > >serious business risk), <even though they really wanted to after seeingwhat > >we had to offer ;]>. So we basically had to hack the game to get itplayed

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> >online... which is why many of the features we have yet to show are not > >included or viewable currently. > > Note the word 'hack'. > > Cheers > > Gerry

Don't ya just hate it when what ya meant to say, doesn't come out that way in the words you type? It happens to me all the time... no hard feelings mate :) Cheers, Schumi P.S. Good to see you again too, I don't make it around these parts as much as I used to since the WSC conspiracy bandwagon started to drum again.. "Ian Bell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QfA48.18824$[email hidden]...

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> Hi Schumi, nice to see you mate. > I wasn't accusing you of anything. :-) > If you read the question I answered it said: > > What about a 3rd party taking, say, F1RC and hacking it to work online, > > is that legal? > > Notice that he said 'hacking' it to work online. When I said it would be > illegal, I meant of course, without the consent of the software company

and

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> secondly, you didn't do any hacking... so there's not an issue. > > Sorry if I was a bit unclear here. > > All the best! > > Ian > > > "Schumi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:kJs48.104365$[email hidden]... > > If you could please do your homework before accusing us of being

illegal, > it > > would be greatly appreciated :). > > > > UbiSoft have full knowledge of what we have done, and expressed > > disappointment that they cannot do anything to help us increase theonline > > playability, etc. for F1RC. Indeed the foot soldiers (and even some > > management) at Ubi are scratching their heads at the suits who forkedout > > the gobs of money for the basic license, when so much more could be done > > without it (and a better bottom-line too I might add). > > > > Ubisoft are the only ones who could "conceivably" have issues with us,but

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> > by virtue of how Relay makes F1RC playable online... we avoid all > liability > > (we simply use what Ubi themselves provided without alterations to code, > > etc.). Not to mention... Ubi don't really WANT to shut us down... they > like > > what we have done for F1RC (given the circumstances... limited) and wish > us > > well. > > > > Cheers, > > Schumi > > > > > > "Ian Bell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:fwg48.16382$[email hidden]... > > > >Does your source know (a) Why the price is so punitively high? And > > > > (b) If it might be lowered so the FIA at least get some money for

that

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> > > > part of the license and F1 fans get race each other? > > > > > > No, he can't speak for Bernie, but my take on it is that Bernie has > turned > > > F1 into the multi-billion dollar glitzy international circus it is, by > > > setting prices and constantly increasing them until either a) the > original > > > party can't afford them and another, richer party takes over, or b)

the > > deal > > > falls through altogether (a la Driver, although that was probably agood > > > thing :-) ) > > > I don't think he understands the concept of pricing to the market.It's

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> > > always been all or nothing with him as far as I can see... > > > I DO know, that F1 Games will get a little thin on the ground over the > > next > > > few years, as those publishers that can afford the 'big bucks' will be > > > fighting tooth and nail for exclusive contracts when the current > > agreements > > > expire. > > > > > > >Nice to see the FIA are killing online sim racing just like they've > > > > killed so many other categories of the RL sport! > > > > > > Couldn't agree more, though Bernie's experience has always been that > > someone > > > with the requisite cash almost always shows up in the end. > > > > > > > So why has he done that then? > > > > > > Again, because he can, and often gets it in the end. > > > > > > > What about a 3rd party taking, say, F1RC and hacking it to work > online, > > > > is that legal? > > > > > > No, it's illegal on two counts - one you'll be modifying Ubi's code > > without > > > permission. And you can bet your arse that Ubi won't give it or

they'll

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> be > > > liable for the licence fee, and two, if you add the facility, you are > > > basically providing what the Games manufacturers omitted because they > > > couldn't afford it, and therefore YOU will be liable to the payment to > > > Bernie's coffers. > > > > > > That's not to say that if you did, you won't get away with it. There

are

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> a > > > few systems out there... > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > Ian > > > www.simbin.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > > > Ian Bell wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have it on good authority, that a seperate fee along the lines

of > > > > > $5,000,000 payable to ... well Bernie's pocket in the finalanalysis

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> > is > > > what > > > > > it will cost for an out of the box fully implemented online > facility. > > > > > > > > That's $5,000,000 which no software co. has ever paid or is ever > likely > > > > to. Does your source know (a) Why the price is so punitively high?

And > > > > (b) If it might be lowered so the FIA at least get some money forthat

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> > > > part of the license and F1 fans get race each other? > > > > > > > > Why is it that, ATM, everybody loses? > > > > > > > > <SNIP> > > > > > > > > > The cost for the non-exclusive right to put F1 on the box and the > > names > > > and > > > > > likenesses of the cars, tracks and drivers is more than double

this

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> > > figure. > > > > > > > > Nice to see the FIA are killing online sim racing just like they've > > > > killed so many other categories of the RL sport! > > > > > > > > > THAT is the main reason why good online play is not included. If I > was > > a > > > > > developer, I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend time working

online > > > > > efficiency into the code if you can't afford to pay for the rightto

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> > > include > > > > > it in the first place. Bernie has priced it so high that it's not > > > > > economically viable. > > > > > > > > So why has he done that then? > > > > > > > > > Oh, and if it's in the code and optimised for the net without the > > > payment of > > > > > the licence fee, you can get sued six ways to sunday by the FIA. > > > > > > > > What about a 3rd party taking, say, F1RC and hacking it to work > online, > > > > is that legal? > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > Gerry > > > > > > > > > > > >

Just so yas know... we were about 24 hours from "complete unofficial support" from Ubi. There was a scandal in the community the day before and VideoSystems (the actual license holder) really clamped down on them (Ubi). It was a frustrating time for us TBH. They were ready to help (with source, etc.) So they aren't THAT bad. In fact, I would say a lot more cooperative than others we have attempted to approach (Geoff Cram & Group are the WORST!). Although... nothing is comparing to the support BugBear and JoWood are showing us in Rally Trophy. We even helped out a bit on the patch, and lots of "community based features" are included. Y'all might want to check out Rally Trophy after the patch ;) Cheers, Schumi "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > David G Fisher wrote: > > > > I can't speak for Schumi, but what I think he meant when he said hehacked > > it to play online was a reference to the way an IP address is put intothe > > game. In F1RC, even though there is a place to type in an IP address foran > > TCP/IP game, nothing happens when you try to do it. You have to put theIP > > address into a game file. Relay does that for you. > > > > Ubi Soft actually snuck this little work around into the gameapparently. > > Does that sound like a co. that doesn't care about multiplay in autosims?

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> > Doesn't sound like a Co. that's quaking in it's boots because of FIA > licensing issues either. So they're to scared to even talk about net > play, but they're more than happy to leave the backdoor open for it to > be implemented by a 3rd party as an unsupported (by them) and unpaid for > (by them) option. > > Is that legal?

Sorry to be a nutter (please don't take it personally)... but I find neither A or B exciting at Indy. Indeed, Indy and all events there bore me to death. "Round and round the mulberry bush... the monkey chased the weasel", and they made it even worse for F1 (at least the oval has speed, the F1 circuit there is a joke IMHO). Cheers, Schumi "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Rafe McAuliffe wrote: > > > > >I didn't know F1 raced on ovals. > > > > hehe, nice one. > > > > Rafe Mc > > Question for you, Rafe. > > Re: Indianapolis F1 circuit. > > What's the most exiting part of that track? > > Is it... > > (a) The high speed banking. > > or... > > (b) The slow, twisting, left and right infield section.

Well there is an old saying "Let sleeping dogs lye". I am sure that if the FIA wanted to... they could slap a lawsuit on us. Afterall, a lawsuit is just an argument of the interpretations of 2 people in relation to the law. We don't push our luck, Ubi looks the other way... and FIA I am sure has no idea what we are doing (its not like we are trading at $50.00 on NASDAQ because we snuck through a loophole in the licensing...) Cheers, Schumi "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <Hr048.836$[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >http://www.ubi.com/US/GamingZone/ Along with it's work with POD goingback > >five years ago (excellent multiplay, dedicated servers, built in ranking > >sytem, and $10,000 tournament which I participated in), this site ispretty > >good evidence Ubi Soft strongly supports online multiplayer. > > > > I checked that site - unfortunately I couldn't find a mention of POD > multiplayer. Not surprising though, if the game is 5 years old... :( Howmany > people at one time did it support? > > >As best I can tell, Ubisoft are using VideoSystem's FIA license, nottheir

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> >own, per-se. Video Systems did not purchase/negotiate that second tier > >license (online play), and therefore are unable to support/create a game > >that uses the FIA license online. > > > >And more from Schumi: > > > >Hopefully I can provide some insight on the "Online Racing Genre

Pitfalls." > >Perhaps even dispel some myths that seem to persist amongst thecommunity. > > > >1) Ubisoft was not permitted to even "promote" F1RC online, or any online > >capabilities thereof. That was a contractual limitation in their license.As > >such, Ubisoft could not supply us with an iota of support (without takinga > >serious business risk), <even though they really wanted to after seeingwhat > >we had to offer ;]>. So we basically had to hack the game to get itplayed > >online... which is why many of the features we have yet to show are not > >included or viewable currently. > > > >David G Fisher > > Does Ubisoft 'take heat' from the FIA because of the F1 Relay? Or evensimply

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> because we have these discussions? > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Schumi Thanks for the heads up on all this and, of course, for relay. Sorry to hear about GC and his crew, although it's just what I would have expected from them! Schumi wrote: > Y'all might want to check out Rally Trophy after the patch ;) I for one, can't wait! Best Gerry

"David G Fisher" wrote > A lot of the PC F1 games are also made for the consoles. A fictitiousF1 > racer for the console probably won't sell, and there's no way to editthem. Quite true, David. Mind you if EA really are being prevented from producing decent net code, we have seen from the 3rd party GT mod the engine could be used for other models. So EA could produce an alternative to F1 with full on-line capability. According to this group they could even label the Hungary track as a fantasy one :-) Cheers Tony

Glad to hear things are going so well for you mate. :-) Spot on about BugBear, they'll be providing us with another copy of the patched game before release, so we can review it again (re-review). They are the best dev. bunch I've ever had the pleasure to deal with. All the best Ian www.simbin.com "Schumi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:YwG48.105420$[email hidden]...

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> Don't ya just hate it when what ya meant to say, doesn't come out that way > in the words you type? It happens to me all the time... no hard feelings > mate :) > > Cheers, > Schumi > > P.S. Good to see you again too, I don't make it around these parts as much > as I used to since the WSC conspiracy bandwagon started to drum again.. > > > "Ian Bell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:QfA48.18824$[email hidden]... > > Hi Schumi, nice to see you mate. > > I wasn't accusing you of anything. :-) > > If you read the question I answered it said: > > > What about a 3rd party taking, say, F1RC and hacking it to work

online,

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> > > is that legal? > > > > Notice that he said 'hacking' it to work online. When I said it would be > > illegal, I meant of course, without the consent of the software company > and > > secondly, you didn't do any hacking... so there's not an issue. > > > > Sorry if I was a bit unclear here. > > > > All the best! > > > > Ian > > > > > > "Schumi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:kJs48.104365$[email hidden]... > > > If you could please do your homework before accusing us of being > illegal, > > it > > > would be greatly appreciated :). > > > > > > UbiSoft have full knowledge of what we have done, and expressed > > > disappointment that they cannot do anything to help us increase the > online > > > playability, etc. for F1RC. Indeed the foot soldiers (and even some > > > management) at Ubi are scratching their heads at the suits who forked > out > > > the gobs of money for the basic license, when so much more could be

done

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> > > without it (and a better bottom-line too I might add). > > > > > > Ubisoft are the only ones who could "conceivably" have issues with us, > but > > > by virtue of how Relay makes F1RC playable online... we avoid all > > liability > > > (we simply use what Ubi themselves provided without alterations to

code, > > > etc.). Not to mention... Ubi don't really WANT to shut us down... they > > like > > > what we have done for F1RC (given the circumstances... limited) andwish

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> > us > > > well. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Schumi > > > > > > > > > "Ian Bell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:fwg48.16382$[email hidden]... > > > > >Does your source know (a) Why the price is so punitively high? And > > > > > (b) If it might be lowered so the FIA at least get some money for > that > > > > > part of the license and F1 fans get race each other? > > > > > > > > No, he can't speak for Bernie, but my take on it is that Bernie has > > turned > > > > F1 into the multi-billion dollar glitzy international circus it is,

by

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> > > > setting prices and constantly increasing them until either a) the > > original > > > > party can't afford them and another, richer party takes over, or b) > the > > > deal > > > > falls through altogether (a la Driver, although that was probably a > good > > > > thing :-) ) > > > > I don't think he understands the concept of pricing to the market. > It's > > > > always been all or nothing with him as far as I can see... > > > > I DO know, that F1 Games will get a little thin on the ground over

the > > > next > > > > few years, as those publishers that can afford the 'big bucks' willbe

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> > > > fighting tooth and nail for exclusive contracts when the current > > > agreements > > > > expire. > > > > > > > > >Nice to see the FIA are killing online sim racing just like they've > > > > > killed so many other categories of the RL sport! > > > > > > > > Couldn't agree more, though Bernie's experience has always been that > > > someone > > > > with the requisite cash almost always shows up in the end. > > > > > > > > > So why has he done that then? > > > > > > > > Again, because he can, and often gets it in the end. > > > > > > > > > What about a 3rd party taking, say, F1RC and hacking it to work > > online, > > > > > is that legal? > > > > > > > > No, it's illegal on two counts - one you'll be modifying Ubi's code > > > without > > > > permission. And you can bet your arse that Ubi won't give it or > they'll > > be > > > > liable for the licence fee, and two, if you add the facility, you

are > > > > basically providing what the Games manufacturers omitted becausethey > > > > couldn't afford it, and therefore YOU will be liable to the paymentto

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> > > > Bernie's coffers. > > > > > > > > That's not to say that if you did, you won't get away with it. There > are > > a > > > > few systems out there... > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > Ian > > > > www.simbin.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ian Bell wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have it on good authority, that a seperate fee along the lines > of > > > > > > $5,000,000 payable to ... well Bernie's pocket in the final > analysis > > > is > > > > what > > > > > > it will cost for an out of the box fully implemented online > > facility. > > > > > > > > > > That's $5,000,000 which no software co. has ever paid or is ever > > likely > > > > > to. Does your source know (a) Why the price is so punitively high? > And > > > > > (b) If it might be lowered so the FIA at least get some money for > that > > > > > part of the license and F1 fans get race each other? > > > > > > > > > > Why is it that, ATM, everybody loses? > > > > > > > > > > <SNIP> > > > > > > > > > > > The cost for the non-exclusive right to put F1 on the box and

the

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> > > names > > > > and > > > > > > likenesses of the cars, tracks and drivers is more than double > this > > > > figure. > > > > > > > > > > Nice to see the FIA are killing online sim racing just like

they've > > > > > killed so many other categories of the RL sport! > > > > > > > > > > > THAT is the main reason why good online play is not included. IfI > > was > > > a > > > > > > developer, I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend time working > online > > > > > > efficiency into the code if you can't afford to pay for theright > to > > > > include > > > > > > it in the first place. Bernie has priced it so high that it'snot > > > > > > economically viable. > > > > > > > > > > So why has he done that then? > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, and if it's in the code and optimised for the net withoutthe

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> > > > payment of > > > > > > the licence fee, you can get sued six ways to sunday by the FIA. > > > > > > > > > > What about a 3rd party taking, say, F1RC and hacking it to work > > online, > > > > > is that legal? > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > Gerry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

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>Question for you, Rafe. > >Re: Indianapolis F1 circuit. > >What's the most exiting part of that track? > >Is it... > >(a) The high speed banking. > >or... > >(b) The slow, twisting, left and right infield section.

I think (c) the fact that there is some actual PASSING there. I wouldn't consider the banked turn a "turn" since it's flat out, just an extended straight. And it leads to a very nice overtaking spot at turn 1. The rest of the track sucks donkey balls in my view. Rafe Mc