Rally racing

I was watching WRC on Speedvision. This is the first time I actually sat down to watch the whole thing. Most of the time I don't pay attention to what the co-driver is saying. What does "3-left, 2-flat, 5-straight" etc. mean. What is he trying to say to the driver. Why do rally drivers get a co-driver to help him with the directions?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I was watching WRC on Speedvision. This is the first time I > actually sat down to watch the whole thing. Most of the time I don't > pay attention to what the co-driver is saying. What does "3-left, > 2-flat, 5-straight" etc. mean. What is he trying to say to the > driver. 1-5 is the degree of the bend in the road. 1 is a slight turn, 5 is almost a right-angle turn (like 60 degrees). There's also the square turn (square left) and the hairpin turn. > Why do rally drivers get a co-driver to help him with the > directions? It helps the drivers maintain higher speed as they don't have to "slow down" to anticipate the turn. If you don't know how sharp the corner is you will slow down to what you THINK the corner is and that may be slower than what you can do had you know. --KC

On Sun, 03 Feb 2002 22:42:15 -0800, [email hidden] wrote: >Why do rally drivers get a co-driver to help him with the >directions? That's because rally drivers aren't very smart and they'd get lost without directions.

Rally racing is almost "blind driving" The copilot tells me pilot the 2 next corners and the pilot just does what he's told, sometimes (at least once a year) one team fucks up in the notes and that makes for a nice film sequence, something like (left 3 on crest) when it's a right 5... In the same style i suggest you watch the winter olympics, and the week after or 2 weeks after you have the paralympics which are the games for the handicapped, one of the most impressive events is the blind ski, a blind skier makes the slalom and his "partner" is 10 meters behind him yelling "right" and "left", you can imagine the amount of trust/coordination it requires to do this... <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de news: [email hidden]... > I was watching WRC on Speedvision. This is the first time I > actually sat down to watch the whole thing. Most of the time I don't > pay attention to what the co-driver is saying. What does "3-left, > 2-flat, 5-straight" etc. mean. What is he trying to say to the > driver. Why do rally drivers get a co-driver to help him with the > directions?

On Mon, 04 Feb 2002 08:53:56 GMT, "Kasey Chang \(remove EATSPAM to reply\)" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>news:[email hidden]... >> I was watching WRC on Speedvision. This is the first time I >> actually sat down to watch the whole thing. Most of the time I don't >> pay attention to what the co-driver is saying. What does "3-left, >> 2-flat, 5-straight" etc. mean. What is he trying to say to the >> driver. > >1-5 is the degree of the bend in the road. 1 is a slight turn, >5 is almost a right-angle turn (like 60 degrees). There's also >the square turn (square left) and the hairpin turn.

It varies, there are several pace-note systems as well as some drivers have their home-brewed ones. For instance, in the system Nicky Grist and Colin McRae use, the corner number stands for which gear should be used. There's a whole lot of other information in the pace notes on top of just corner speed, like distance to next turn/mark, tightening/opening corner, cautions(rocks, logs, ice-patches, et.c.), crests...

On Sun, 03 Feb 2002 22:42:15 -0800, [email hidden] wrote: > I was watching WRC on Speedvision. This is the first time I >actually sat down to watch the whole thing. Most of the time I don't >pay attention to what the co-driver is saying. What does "3-left, >2-flat, 5-straight" etc. mean. What is he trying to say to the >driver. Why do rally drivers get a co-driver to help him with the >directions? All things in rallying today can be traced back to it's roots back in the early years(read: beginning of last century) where it was very different than today. Then you had the co-driver(navigator in those days) reading an actual roadmap, as you were going from like Warsaw to Monte Carlo! Rallying(which strictly speaking isn't racing if you don't mind me getting a bit anal), comes from the actual word Rally(Rallye if you're french). I.e. a gathering. As late as in the 60's the Monte Carlo was a "Rally"-rally, and the cars started from different parts of Europe to converge in Monte Carlo. Nowadays they describe the road ahead on the special stages, as well as doing a load of other tasks in between like keeping tracks of the time-sheets with arrival times and the like and not getting lost on the transport stages. :)

"Tony Rae" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3c5f5302.1920401@news...

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> On Sun, 03 Feb 2002 22:42:15 -0800, [email hidden] wrote: > > >Why do rally drivers get a co-driver to help him with the > >directions? > > That's because rally drivers aren't very smart and they'd get lost > without directions.

ROTFLMAOPIMP

"Kasey Chang \(remove EATSPAM to reply\)" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I was watching WRC on Speedvision. This is the first time I > > actually sat down to watch the whole thing. Most of the time I don't > > pay attention to what the co-driver is saying. What does "3-left, > > 2-flat, 5-straight" etc. mean. What is he trying to say to the > > driver. > > 1-5 is the degree of the bend in the road. 1 is a slight turn, > 5 is almost a right-angle turn (like 60 degrees). There's also > the square turn (square left) and the hairpin turn.

Colin McRae (and a few others, I think) use a different system, where the co-driver calls the preferred gear for the corner. -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy"

([email hidden]) wrote on 04 Feb 2002: > I was watching WRC on Speedvision. This is the first time I > actually sat down to watch the whole thing. Most of the time I don't > pay attention to what the co-driver is saying. What does "3-left, > 2-flat, 5-straight" etc. mean. What is he trying to say to the > driver. Why do rally drivers get a co-driver to help him with the > directions? The "1-left" etc is to inform the driver what the next corner's like (actually, it's usually the next corner but two given the speed these folks re going!). As mentioned elsewhere, a "1" corner is just a kink, pretty much flat-out, while a "5" is a much steeper bend, with "square" and "hairpin" also. This, while the most popular system these days, isn't the only "numeric" system in use - there's also a version where the numbers refer to the gear of the corner (so a "1" here would be a very *slow* corner - let's hope the driver knows which system is being used!). There's also what's called the "descriptive" system of pacenotes, which is less popular these days than it used to be, but is still employed by a couple of the top drivers - Juha Kankkunen and Alister McRae. This uses a complicated set of codes for various corners - "easy right", "K left", "absolute right into long open left" and so on. Numbers between indicate distances betweeen corners - "easy right, 40, opens into long flat right, 200" and so on. As to why the co-driver is there in the first place, the name itself ("co-driver" rather than just "navigator") gives you a clue. Modern rallying is essentially a series of sprints, but up until the 1980s it was much more of an endurance event, with longer events (the RAC Rally lasted 5 days for years), far longer distances on the open road between stages and very little sleep for the crews. So the co-driver would drive the car on the road sections while the driver got some sleep. Also, remember that some rallies still don't allow pacenotes (I believe this is the case in most rallies in Canada, and even the RAC Rally didn't allow them until 1990), so the co-driver has to "read the road" with the aid of a map and "road book" rather than "just" yell out the notes. On top of all this, a second pair of hands comes in very handy after an accident or breakdown! -- "After all, a mere thousand yards... such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh. The GPL Scrapyard: bits 'n' bobs at http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com

Hi, This thread has been informative! I just started watching WRC on speedvision last fall when we got it here. The only thing I am confused about is what some co-drivers mean when they say + (plus) or - (minus), I assume that has to do with negative or positive camber of the turn? John

"Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3c5e5d0b$0$16583$[email hidden]... > The copilot tells me pilot the 2 next corners and the pilot just does what > he's told, sometimes (at least once a year) one team fucks up in the notes > and that makes for a nice film sequence, something like (left 3 on crest) > when it's a right 5... > Proof that CMR2 is a good sim... there's a mis-called corner in Kenya, I think. Co-driver gets the direction wrong. Either that or I always screw up at the same place... Dale.

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > I was watching WRC on Speedvision. This is the first time I > actually sat down to watch the whole thing. Most of the time I don't > pay attention to what the co-driver is saying. What does "3-left, > 2-flat, 5-straight" etc. mean. What is he trying to say to the > driver. Why do rally drivers get a co-driver to help him with the > directions? They're called pace notes - the driver and co-driver generate the notes during pre-rally reconnaisance(sp?) of the rally stages. The notes you describe sound like Colin McRae's (co-driver Nicky Grist). IIRC he uses a system that indicates the desired gear for the corner - with modifications to further describe the corner - crests, obstacles (i.e. don't cut = don't cut the corner due to a ditch, stump, wall, etc.), increasing (opens) and decreasing (tightens) radius, etc. Different drivers and co-drivers use different systems. If the driver knows whats coming up ahead of time, he knows what to do before he gets there and can maintain maximum speed and avoid hazards. HTH, Kendt

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > I was watching WRC on Speedvision. This is the first time I > actually sat down to watch the whole thing. Most of the time I don't > pay attention to what the co-driver is saying. What does "3-left, > 2-flat, 5-straight" etc. mean. What is he trying to say to the > driver. Why do rally drivers get a co-driver to help him with the > directions? Not sure what the terms the co-driver is spouting off actualy mean but the reason they have a co-driver is that in ralley the entrants do not have race on a repetitive track, so it is almost impossible for the driver to memorize all of the information about the track, so the co-driver studies the track (notice they always have a notepad with them) and relays all of that information to the driver. The driver mostly reacts to the situation whereas the co-driver is the real brains of the operation! Welcome to the wonderful world of Ralley! Check out WRC or speedvision.com, they should help you learn more of this extremely complex sport. I.R.DINGUS!

On Mon, 04 Feb 2002 09:27:11 GMT, [email hidden] (Tony Rae) wrote:

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>On Sun, 03 Feb 2002 22:42:15 -0800, [email hidden] wrote: > >>Why do rally drivers get a co-driver to help him with the >>directions? > >That's because rally drivers aren't very smart and they'd get lost >without directions.

If I had a co-driver in real life telling me where to drive I'd get pretty pissed quick. Sort of like my mom telling my dad how to drive. "Turn left there, no wait, right." I wish GPL had a co-driver option.

On 4 Feb 2002 14:26:13 GMT, David Buttery <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>As to why the co-driver is there in the first place, the name itself >("co-driver" rather than just "navigator") gives you a clue. Modern >rallying is essentially a series of sprints, but up until the 1980s it >was much more of an endurance event, with longer events (the RAC Rally >lasted 5 days for years), far longer distances on the open road between >stages and very little sleep for the crews. So the co-driver would >drive the car on the road sections while the driver got some sleep.

But do the co-drivers today get to drive as well? Is Dakar considered rally? I remember seeing Dakar, but there wasn't a lot of turning etc. And in that race, the co-driver seemed like he wasn't needed at all.

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 11:06:04 +0100, in rec.autos.simulators you wrote: >Rally racing is almost "blind driving" > >The copilot tells me pilot the 2 next corners and the pilot just does what >he's told, sometimes (at least once a year) one team fucks up in the notes >and that makes for a nice film sequence, something like (left 3 on crest) >when it's a right 5... Did Rally racing always had a co-pilot? What about in the old days when men were men. You'd think most of the co-pilots would be women since they're good with directions.

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>In the same style i suggest you watch the winter olympics, and the week >after or 2 weeks after you have the paralympics which are the games for the >handicapped, one of the most impressive events is the blind ski, a blind >skier makes the slalom and his "partner" is 10 meters behind him yelling >"right" and "left", you can imagine the amount of trust/coordination it >requires to do this... >

Never seen that. Some people amaze me. I can't ski with my eyes open let alone blindfolded.

> > Did Rally racing always had a co-pilot? What about in the old days > when men were men. You'd think most of the co-pilots would be women > since they're good with directions. Yep, always. Rallying is the oldest type of motorsport. (Well a lot of people claim the racing on public roads back in the beginning of the 20th century was road racing, but it's more like rallying :)) As i twas on public roads, navvie's were needed. Then, when stages were closed, the rallies would be a week or so and cover about 1000, don't think you could remember where to go for 1000 miles. Anyway, there are some female co-drivers, especially in the US. Thanks, Alex

Don't take my word for it, but I believe + means you can take the corner faster than you normally would take that degree of corner and - is the opposite. Thanks, Alex

no and yes

In the US the rallies are still blind with "tulip" notes. (Basically a chart with a visual representation of each major corner or straight with mileages between) Thanks, Alex "David Buttery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> ([email hidden]) wrote on 04 Feb 2002: > > > I was watching WRC on Speedvision. This is the first time I > > actually sat down to watch the whole thing. Most of the time I don't > > pay attention to what the co-driver is saying. What does "3-left, > > 2-flat, 5-straight" etc. mean. What is he trying to say to the > > driver. Why do rally drivers get a co-driver to help him with the > > directions? > > The "1-left" etc is to inform the driver what the next corner's like > (actually, it's usually the next corner but two given the speed these > folks re going!). As mentioned elsewhere, a "1" corner is just a kink, > pretty much flat-out, while a "5" is a much steeper bend, with "square" > and "hairpin" also. > > This, while the most popular system these days, isn't the only > "numeric" system in use - there's also a version where the numbers > refer to the gear of the corner (so a "1" here would be a very *slow* > corner - let's hope the driver knows which system is being used!). > > There's also what's called the "descriptive" system of pacenotes, which > is less popular these days than it used to be, but is still employed by > a couple of the top drivers - Juha Kankkunen and Alister McRae. This > uses a complicated set of codes for various corners - "easy right", "K > left", "absolute right into long open left" and so on. Numbers between > indicate distances betweeen corners - "easy right, 40, opens into long > flat right, 200" and so on. > > As to why the co-driver is there in the first place, the name itself > ("co-driver" rather than just "navigator") gives you a clue. Modern > rallying is essentially a series of sprints, but up until the 1980s it > was much more of an endurance event, with longer events (the RAC Rally > lasted 5 days for years), far longer distances on the open road between > stages and very little sleep for the crews. So the co-driver would > drive the car on the road sections while the driver got some sleep. > > Also, remember that some rallies still don't allow pacenotes (I believe > this is the case in most rallies in Canada, and even the RAC Rally > didn't allow them until 1990), so the co-driver has to "read the road" > with the aid of a map and "road book" rather than "just" yell out the > notes. > > On top of all this, a second pair of hands comes in very handy after an > accident or breakdown! > > -- > "After all, a mere thousand yards... such a harmless little knoll, > really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh. > > The GPL Scrapyard: bits 'n' bobs at http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com

Actually, now many of the teams have recce crews that do this for them! Thanks, Alex "Dingus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > [email hidden] wrote in messagenews:<[email hidden]>...

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> > I was watching WRC on Speedvision. This is the first time I > > actually sat down to watch the whole thing. Most of the time I don't > > pay attention to what the co-driver is saying. What does "3-left, > > 2-flat, 5-straight" etc. mean. What is he trying to say to the > > driver. Why do rally drivers get a co-driver to help him with the > > directions? > > > Not sure what the terms the co-driver is spouting off actualy mean but > the reason they have a co-driver is that in ralley the entrants do not > have race on a repetitive track, so it is almost impossible for the > driver to memorize all of the information about the track, so the > co-driver studies the track (notice they always have a notepad with > them) and relays all of that information to the driver. The driver > mostly reacts to the situation whereas the co-driver is the real > brains of the operation! > > Welcome to the wonderful world of Ralley! Check out WRC or > speedvision.com, they should help you learn more of this extremely > complex sport. > > I.R.DINGUS!

[email hidden] (Kendt Eklund) writes:

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> [email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > > I was watching WRC on Speedvision. This is the first time I > > actually sat down to watch the whole thing. Most of the time I don't > > pay attention to what the co-driver is saying. What does "3-left, > > 2-flat, 5-straight" etc. mean. What is he trying to say to the > > driver. Why do rally drivers get a co-driver to help him with the > > directions? > > They're called pace notes - the driver and co-driver generate the > notes during pre-rally reconnaisance(sp?) of the rally stages.

they do? I was sure they were hand-outs. no, really. -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy"

"Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> writes: > Anyway, there are some female co-drivers, especially in the US. there's even one in WRC. guess which pop-star for ten bonus points. -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 silence is FOO!

Tina Th�rner! "Gunnar Horrigmo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> writes: > > > Anyway, there are some female co-drivers, especially in the US. > > there's even one in WRC. guess which pop-star for ten bonus points. > > > -- > Gunnar > #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 > silence is FOO!

> <[email hidden]> wrote > You'd think most of the co-pilots would be women > since they're good with directions. Eh you surely don't travel much with a women don't you? ;-D -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"John Courtney" wrote: > This thread has been informative! I just started watching WRC on > speedvision last fall when we got it here. The only thing I amconfused > about is what some co-drivers mean when they say + (plus) or -(minus), I > assume that has to do with negative or positive camber of theturn? Quote from Nicky Grist: "I use a numbers system. 'One' for first gear, going up to 'Six' for the highest and fastest gear, adding a 'Left' and 'Right' for the direction of the corner. Between second and fifth gear there are four variations for each gear. There's a 'Plus' before the number for a fast corner, just the number itself for a normal corner, a 'Minus' if the corner is slightly slower, and 'Slow', which is slowest of all. In addition to this are 'Opens', which means the car can drift wide on the exit or that it opens into another corner. And 'Tightens', which means either to watch it on the exit or that it tightens into something slower. Any other dangers are marked with 'Care', 'Caution' and 'Double Caution'. For example if I say: 'Four left Opens into a Five left Plus', it means a straight fourth-gear left-hand corner opens up into slightly faster fifth-gear left-hand corner" Cheers Tony

> > You'd think most of the co-pilots would be women > > since they're good with directions. > Eh you surely don't travel much with a women don't you? ;-D LOL Only in shopping malls here :-)

([email hidden]) wrote on 04 Feb 2002: > But do the co-drivers today get to drive as well?<snip> I don't think so - certainly not on special stages. I'm not sure if it ever still happens on road sections - I can't see why not, provided the co has the right licence. > Is Dakar considered rally?<snip> Usually - it's certainly more "rally" than "race". The Dakar is the most famous example of what's often known as a "raid". These are very long distance events with extremely long legs (several hundred miles a day). The most recent running was from December 28th 2001 to January 13th 2002, and covered over 9,000 kilometres! All manner of vehicles compete - cars, motorbiks and trucks. One particularly interesting aspect of the Dakar is that *all* the vehicles are considered to be competitors, so although they don't do the special stages themselves, backup cars and so on do get race numbers, time cards etc. The official website is well worth a look, although its translation from the French is not all that good: http://www.dakar.com/2002/presentationus/ -- "After all, a mere thousand yards... such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh. The GPL Scrapyard: bits 'n' bobs at http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com

Gunnar Horrigmo ([email hidden]) wrote on 04 Feb 2002: > [email hidden] (Kendt Eklund) writes: >> They're called pace notes - the driver and co-driver generate the >> notes during pre-rally reconnaisance(sp?) of the rally stages. > > they do? I was sure they were hand-outs. no, really. Nope. But there are strict rules concerning how the recce is done - you have to go at about 30mph, at least in the UK. And on the San Remo rally in 1999, Didier Auriol was caught riding a bike on one of the stages the day before the rally, and penalised 2 minutes! -- "After all, a mere thousand yards... such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh. The GPL Scrapyard: bits 'n' bobs at http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com

Nah, that's a famous rockstar :-) /petern P.S. According to legend, Tina Turner was on tour in Germany once and some joker printed t-shirts for the crew that read "Tiny Turner and His Band". On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:14:59 -0600, "doubleu" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Tina Th�rner! > >"Gunnar Horrigmo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> writes: >> >> > Anyway, there are some female co-drivers, especially in the US. >> >> there's even one in WRC. guess which pop-star for ten bonus points. >> >> >> -- >> Gunnar >> #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 >> silence is FOO! >

On Mon, 04 Feb 2002 12:42:38 -0800, [email hidden] wrote: >Did Rally racing always had a co-pilot? What about in the old days >when men were men. You'd think most of the co-pilots would be women >since they're good with directions. Excuse me? They are good drivers, generally, but damned if they can find their way around without guidance. I've had the pleasure of being a passenger when my ex-wife drove us home one evening and I had to tell her to stop because -'Darling, you just drove past our house!" -"Oh, I did? I thought I recognized this street!" Oh my... /petern

On Mon, 04 Feb 2002 12:10:45 +0100, na_biker <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>On Mon, 04 Feb 2002 08:53:56 GMT, "Kasey Chang \(remove EATSPAM to >reply\)" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>news:[email hidden]... >>> I was watching WRC on Speedvision. This is the first time I >>> actually sat down to watch the whole thing. Most of the time I don't >>> pay attention to what the co-driver is saying. What does "3-left, >>> 2-flat, 5-straight" etc. mean. What is he trying to say to the >>> driver. >> >>1-5 is the degree of the bend in the road. 1 is a slight turn, >>5 is almost a right-angle turn (like 60 degrees). There's also >>the square turn (square left) and the hairpin turn. > >It varies, there are several pace-note systems as well as some drivers >have their home-brewed ones. > >For instance, in the system Nicky Grist and Colin McRae use, the >corner number stands for which gear should be used. There's a whole >lot of other information in the pace notes on top of just corner >speed, like distance to next turn/mark, tightening/opening corner, >cautions(rocks, logs, ice-patches, et.c.), crests...

Mishearing "tight left" as "slight left" is always a showstopper. /petern

You know it's Tina Thorner right? Not the rockstar. Don't give me a heartattack :) Thanks, Alex "Peter Nilsson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Nah, that's a famous rockstar :-) > > /petern > > P.S. According to legend, Tina Turner was on tour in Germany once and > some joker printed t-shirts for the crew that read "Tiny Turner and > His Band". > > > > On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:14:59 -0600, "doubleu" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Tina Th�rner! > > > >"Gunnar Horrigmo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> writes: > >> > >> > Anyway, there are some female co-drivers, especially in the US. > >> > >> there's even one in WRC. guess which pop-star for ten bonus points. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Gunnar > >> #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8

Kibo�: 2 > >> silence is FOO! > > >

Note the smiley :-) /petern On Thu, 07 Feb 2002 20:55:23 GMT, "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>You know it's Tina Thorner right? Not the rockstar. Don't give me a >heartattack :) > >Thanks, >Alex >"Peter Nilsson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Nah, that's a famous rockstar :-) >> >> /petern >> >> P.S. According to legend, Tina Turner was on tour in Germany once and >> some joker printed t-shirts for the crew that read "Tiny Turner and >> His Band". >> >> >> >> On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:14:59 -0600, "doubleu" <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >Tina Th�rner! >> > >> >"Gunnar Horrigmo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> >news:[email hidden]... >> >> "Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> writes: >> >> >> >> > Anyway, there are some female co-drivers, especially in the US. >> >> >> >> there's even one in WRC. guess which pop-star for ten bonus points. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Gunnar >> >> #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 >Kibo�: 2 >> >> silence is FOO! >> > >> >