[F12001] Braking Too Easy?

Hi all, I have driven about 50-60 laps in F12001 and have noticed that the braking seems too easy. I have *all* help options turned off (unless I am missing some super secret options.) I am used to the GPL cars and having to be oh so careful with regards to steering, rpm, and brake inputs when braking hard. Add in gradients and GPL is even more challenging to the hard braker. Any time I brake hard in F12001, it seems as though there is no way to get the back to trade places with the front, and all my experience with GPL, real life driving and reading (Going Faster) whispers to me that this cannot be correct. Heck, I have steered in one direction or another and all the car does is slide straight on. With all the weight transfer it doesn't seem right. I was thinking maybe modern F1 cars are just like that, but I just tried out the GT mod V2, and it is the same deal. Anyone else notice this? MRSisson -- LOAD "GPL",8,1 RUN

Michael, I think that once you start taking wing off you'll be able to get your car to swing around anytime you want! Changing brake bias alone should help to get you spinning in a corner. Dennis

Wow! tell me your technique. After many months of F1 2001 I wish I could find a way of avoiding the back trading places with the front under braking! Iain "Michael Sisson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MPG.16cbb597ffdf9c48989681@news...

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> Hi all, > > I have driven about 50-60 laps in F12001 and have noticed that the > braking seems too easy. I have *all* help options turned off (unless I am > missing some super secret options.) > > I am used to the GPL cars and having to be oh so careful with regards to > steering, rpm, and brake inputs when braking hard. Add in gradients and > GPL is even more challenging to the hard braker. > > Any time I brake hard in F12001, it seems as though there is no way to > get the back to trade places with the front, and all my experience with > GPL, real life driving and reading (Going Faster) whispers to me that > this cannot be correct. Heck, I have steered in one direction or another > and all the car does is slide straight on. With all the weight transfer > it doesn't seem right. > > I was thinking maybe modern F1 cars are just like that, but I just tried > out the GT mod V2, and it is the same deal. > > Anyone else notice this? > > MRSisson > > -- > LOAD "GPL",8,1 > RUN

"Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<SXw88.1639$[email hidden]>... > Wow! tell me your technique. After many months of F1 2001 I wish I could > find a way of avoiding the back trading places with the front under braking! > Iain I have the same problem as the original poster and my technique is simply 'mashing the brake down all the way until i slowly work the gas pedal'. This works pretty well since the brakes don't lock up above 50mph. No reason to use anything but full pedal. Jason

> This works pretty well since the brakes don't lock up above 50mph. ..but stability goes if you brake hard and change down the gears quickly! serious amount of weghtchange forces in place there. watch the back coming round then! Iain

Keep some slight pressure on the gas, and keep the revs down (i.e. don't change down too soon). This is realistic, I have seen comments from F1 drivers that you cannot just take your foot off the gas and expect the car to go straight. For the original poster, try boosting the brake pressure. That option is not in the normal setup menu, but it can be done with Turner's setup tool, which you can download from http://members.rogers.com/nwalkz. I think there is also an advanced options menu available somewhere that allows you to do it. Even with full brake pressure you will find it hard to lock the bakes at speed, due to the high downforce on the tires. This, too, is realistic. But full brake pressure did seem to decrease my stopping distances. "Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:oNB88.4429$[email hidden]... > > > This works pretty well since the brakes don't lock up above 50mph. > > ..but stability goes if you brake hard and change down the gearsquickly! > serious amount of weghtchange forces in place there. watch the backcoming > round then! > > Iain > >

In article <MPG.16cbb597ffdf9c48989681@news>, Michael Sisson <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Any time I brake hard in F12001, it seems as though there is no way to >get the back to trade places with the front, and all my experience with >GPL, real life driving and reading (Going Faster) whispers to me that >this cannot be correct. Heck, I have steered in one direction or another >and all the car does is slide straight on. With all the weight transfer >it doesn't seem right. > >I was thinking maybe modern F1 cars are just like that, but I just tried >out the GT mod V2, and it is the same deal. > >Anyone else notice this?

No - I'm spinning all OVER the place under braking... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" wrote: >> The 401 going to Toronto? I've driven that a few times >> - I didn't think it was that bad... and > No - I'm spinning all OVER the place under braking... Have I got my threads muddled... :-) Tony

Eldred, I was spinning a lot too, until I realized that it's the same as GPL, only everything is happening much faster, and with less margin for error. So you have to keep the revs down under braking and turning, and you may need to keep some very light pressure on the throttle at the higher speeds where the braking force (and consequently weight transfer) is greater. Also I think you will find that the GPL technique of keeping the revs low, using a lot of diff. lock, and pushing the car through the turn with just the right amount of throttle still applies, but again with a smaller margin for error. Same skills, different feel and timing. Knocked a couple of seconds off my times at A1 and Monaco after I realized that. My lap times still suck, but less than before. ;o) Regards, Hal "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <MPG.16cbb597ffdf9c48989681@news>, Michael Sisson > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Any time I brake hard in F12001, it seems as though there is no wayto > >get the back to trade places with the front, and all my experiencewith > >GPL, real life driving and reading (Going Faster) whispers to me that > >this cannot be correct. Heck, I have steered in one direction oranother > >and all the car does is slide straight on. With all the weighttransfer > >it doesn't seem right. > > > >I was thinking maybe modern F1 cars are just like that, but I justtried

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> >out the GT mod V2, and it is the same deal. > > > >Anyone else notice this? > > No - I'm spinning all OVER the place under braking... > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then

beats you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <FSY88.1052$[email hidden]>, "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>"EldredP" wrote: > >>> The 401 going to Toronto? I've driven that a few times >>> - I didn't think it was that bad... > >and > >> No - I'm spinning all OVER the place under braking... > >Have I got my threads muddled... :-) >

Yes Tony, I believe you have... I've never spun on the 401...THANKFULLY. :-) But, I almost hit a bridge abuttment in a rainstorm at night. The road narrowed by a couple of feet almost before I realized it...whew! Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <a41nes$1c37j2$[email hidden]>, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>I was spinning a lot too, until I realized that it's the same as GPL, >only everything is happening much faster, and with less margin for >error. So you have to keep the revs down under braking and turning, and >you may need to keep some very light pressure on the throttle at the >higher speeds where the braking force (and consequently weight transfer) >is greater. Also I think you will find that the GPL technique of >keeping the revs low, using a lot of diff. lock, and pushing the car >through the turn with just the right amount of throttle still applies, >but again with a smaller margin for error. Same skills, different feel >and timing. Knocked a couple of seconds off my times at A1 and Monaco >after I realized that. My lap times still suck, but less than before. >;o) >

I haven't totally gotten used to using the throttle while braking, even in GPL. I just recently started trying it. So, it will probably be even tougher in F1 2001... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Heh, you could probably spin for several hours on the 401 before you hit anything, it's so flat out there.... "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <FSY88.1052$[email hidden]>, "TonyRickard"

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> <[email hidden]> writes: > > >"EldredP" wrote: > > > >>> The 401 going to Toronto? I've driven that a few times > >>> - I didn't think it was that bad... > > > >and > > > >> No - I'm spinning all OVER the place under braking... > > > >Have I got my threads muddled... :-) > > > > Yes Tony, I believe you have... I've never spun on the

401...THANKFULLY. :-) > But, I almost hit a bridge abuttment in a rainstorm at night. Theroad

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> narrowed by a couple of feet almost before I realized it...whew! > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then

beats you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" wrote: > Yes Tony, I believe you have... I've never spun on the401...THANKFULLY. :-) > But, I almost hit a bridge abuttment in a rainstorm at night. Theroad > narrowed by a couple of feet almost before I realized it...whew! > > Eldred Sorry Eldred - just trying to enhance the reputation that started the whole St. Eldred thing! Incidentally have you come to any conclusions with the controller settings for F1-2001. I have yet to find that magic "feel" setting - but judging from other posts others I feel I am missing something - any further thoughts? Cheers Tony

> I have yet to find that magic "feel" setting - but judging from > other posts others I feel I am missing something - any further > thoughts? Try setting speed sensitivity to 5% and also X-axis to 5% - you may need to play with those numbers depending on your wheel, but that should be a good starting point.

"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<a3viqf$1adhbe$[email hidden]>... > Even with full brake pressure you will find it > hard to lock the bakes at speed, due to the high downforce on the tires. I find this hard to believe and I think people saying this are rationalizing a huge flaw in F1 2001's physics modeling. Within the past few years I can remember several instances in real life where people locked their brakes and/or got incredibly tail-happy when braking. In F1 2001 you can HAMMER the brakes, with the brake bias set fully to the front, and until you slowed 50mph (or downshift too quickly) it feels no different than braking with the bias set fully to the rear or anywhere in the middle. If your argument were true, then a car with a front/rear wing ripped off should be able to lock up the brakes above 50mph, since downforce would be reduced dramatically (what with the ban on ground effect). Yet, without a front or rear wing, I still can't lock the brakes up above 50mph unless I frantically downshift too fast. To go further, by the same argument, if I were to lose my front wing and I have the brake bias set fully forward, then I should have no problem locking my front wheels at any speed. But I can't. Because the braking model in F1 2001 is flawed. Also, the downforce/grip keeping the brakes from locking argument is flawed when grooved tires are taken into account. There is less grip now when braking then there was the last year before grooved tires were introduced, and yet people could lock their brakes up then too. For information's sake (or at least demonstrating beyond a doubt that I'm an idiot =), are there any legitimate articles on this phenomenon on the net anywhere? Jason

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> If your argument were true, then a car with a front/rear wing ripped > off should be able to lock up the brakes above 50mph, since downforce > would be reduced dramatically (what with the ban on ground effect). > Yet, without a front or rear wing, I still can't lock the brakes up > above 50mph unless I frantically downshift too fast. To go further, > by the same argument, if I were to lose my front wing and I have the > brake bias set fully forward, then I should have no problem locking my > front wheels at any speed. But I can't. Because the braking model in > F1 2001 is flawed.

That's a fair point. It's as if 'low' anti-lock braking is enabled at all times. I'm not aware of real F1 cars having any form of 'intelligent' brakes. -- Damien Smith [email hidden] ICQ: 77028579 F1 2001 rank: +27.680

Good questions. I haven't tried some of the things you have, and I don't know of any good article on F1 braking performance, so I can't answer most of them. Most of what I said is based on what I have heard from people more familiar with F1 than I. However here are a couple of things to think about. First, the brake pressure in the setups is arbitrarily low, and you can't adjust it from the standard F1 2001 menus. If you get Turner's setup tool from http://members.rogers.com/nwalkz or the advanced options menu from http://www.rsdg.net/ you can raise the brake pressure quite a bit, and they do seem to lock a bit earlier if you do that. Secondly F1 2001 attributes a substantial amount of downforce to the diffuser, so even if you knock both wings off you are still being glued to the road pretty hard. The diffuser's downforce is height sensitive, however even raising the car to the max ride height is not sufficient to remove all the downforce. At the base ride height of the Williams, for example, the diffuser alone has a lift coefficient of -0.932. I'm not sure what the frontal area of an F1 car is, but making some rough estimates the diffuser alone should be capable of around 100 lbs of downforce at 50 mph, more if you have it running at the nose down attitude typical of most setups. I will admit however, after doing some rough calculations, that it seems like if you knock the front wing off you ought to be able to lock the fronts at any speed. The diffuser force is primarily on the rear wheels, meaning you still should not be able to lock the rears at any significant speed, only the fronts. The only other explanation I have for this is brake heat. F1 2001 does appear to model brake heat, and defaults the brake ducts to a relatively high setting. You can change the brake duct setting with the tools mentioned above. Brakes have an optimum operating temperature, so maybe with good brake ducts you might not be able to get them hot enough at high speeds. Just a guess, really. One thing I just tried to test what I just said was to run the Williams with maximum brake pressure and minimum brake duct settings. I should have messed with the wings too, but I didn't. Anyway I was able to get front wheel lock up at 120 kph, which I think is about 75 mph. So basically I think F1 2001's physics model is working right, but there are some parameters that you should be able to adjust that you can't, unless you get one of the setup tools listed above; and the downforce is more effective than you might expect. "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:<a3viqf$1adhbe$[email hidden]>... > > > Even with full brake pressure you will find it > > hard to lock the bakes at speed, due to the high downforce on thetires.

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> > I find this hard to believe and I think people saying this are > rationalizing a huge flaw in F1 2001's physics modeling. Within the > past few years I can remember several instances in real life where > people locked their brakes and/or got incredibly tail-happy when > braking. In F1 2001 you can HAMMER the brakes, with the brake bias > set fully to the front, and until you slowed 50mph (or downshift too > quickly) it feels no different than braking with the bias set fully to > the rear or anywhere in the middle. > > If your argument were true, then a car with a front/rear wing ripped > off should be able to lock up the brakes above 50mph, since downforce > would be reduced dramatically (what with the ban on ground effect). > Yet, without a front or rear wing, I still can't lock the brakes up > above 50mph unless I frantically downshift too fast. To go further, > by the same argument, if I were to lose my front wing and I have the > brake bias set fully forward, then I should have no problem locking my > front wheels at any speed. But I can't. Because the braking model in > F1 2001 is flawed. > > Also, the downforce/grip keeping the brakes from locking argument is > flawed when grooved tires are taken into account. There is less grip > now when braking then there was the last year before grooved tires > were introduced, and yet people could lock their brakes up then too. > > For information's sake (or at least demonstrating beyond a doubt that > I'm an idiot =), are there any legitimate articles on this phenomenon > on the net anywhere? > > Jason

In article <66698.1355$[email hidden]>, "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> writes: >Incidentally have you come to any conclusions with the controller >settings for F1-2001. > >I have yet to find that magic "feel" setting - but judging from >other posts others I feel I am missing something - any further >thoughts? Yes - they SUCK... F1 2001(and other EA products) don't seem to have settings that are very 'intuitive'. David has given me suggestions that should help, but I haven't had time to experiment yet. Since when should it be this difficult to tweak a NON-ff wheel? <sigh> There's a lot more 'feel' out there, we just have to work harder for it. :( Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP"> (snip) Since when should it be this > difficult to tweak a NON-ff wheel? <sigh> > There's a lot more 'feel' out there, we just have to work harder for it.:( > > Eldred I spent tons of time getting my f1 CS 2001 brakes to NOT lockup, then I see threads here that complain cuz they CAN'T lockup the brakes. I'm thinking this was an EA feature fix due to customer input.(just a guess about that tho..) dave henrie

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> One thing I just tried to test what I just said was to run the Williams > with maximum brake pressure and minimum brake duct settings. I should > have messed with the wings too, but I didn't. Anyway I was able to get > front wheel lock up at 120 kph, which I think is about 75 mph. So > basically I think F1 2001's physics model is working right, but there > are some parameters that you should be able to adjust that you can't, > unless you get one of the setup tools listed above; and the downforce is > more effective than you might expect.

I seem to be able to lock the brakes at 200kph+ speeds in the GT mod. I guess the F1 brake performance could only be commmented on by someone 'in the know'