In-car Cockpit View vs Roof Cam

I personally don't care where somebody likes to view their fav sim racing car. But.....a sim means "simulated" or "simulation of the real thing." Would you fly a plane in a flight sim from the top of the rear tail and call it "flying?" Nope. I'd call it "watching a plane fly"....myself, at least. So, if you "drive" from the roof cam...you are watching your car race race....not racing in it. I think generally speaking....a roof cam driving position would be considered an "arcade" driving position....just because all the original arcade racers rarely provided anything but some type of roof cam or "trailer cam"......but there was probably a few exceptions to that too. I would prefer to "drive" from the same position...or as close as the particular racing sim allows.....to what real world drivers drive from in that car or series. That's my preference......yours is yours. Tom

Tom, in some cases there IS no choice. Those people to which I refer are those that tend to get disoriented in the cockpit view (me being one of them) so there really is no option BUT to use the arcade (or other out of car) view. But I wish they hadn't of gotten rid of the "high" view. But that's Sierra's "preference". :-) Sure, it may be unrealistic, but dammit - it IS a game, still with a lot of work to do I might add. Tom Pabst wrote in message ... >that car or series. That's my preference......yours is yours. > >Tom > > >

I agree with you for the most part here Tom, my only complaint being this: The in-car view is too low. I have been in real cup cars, several of them. Whether or not their seat position was correct shall remain to be seen, but when I was in them (the 20, the 8, and the 18, show cars, last year) I could see SOME hood. Not so in the sim, no hood. So given that, I am inclined at 1 track (your fav I think) to use the roof view so I can see the upcoming hills. Other than that, I tolerate the DE-right-on-the-floorboard-in-car view. If they could give us a LITTLE hood in the view so we can better see whats ahead in a non-level environment, I'd never get out of the car. I understand it is semi-blind driving in real life, but I also think at my height (6'3") that in a REAL cup car, I can dang near see the front of the car (about like in my real life Camaros, lot of hood, no front end obviously). You can't see past the windsheild in the current NR2002 cockpit view...my only complaint and reasoning for the 'cheater' view I have to use @ SP. Y'all flatten that track out a little and we'll talk ;) Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qtue8.25109$[email hidden]... > I personally don't care where somebody likes to view their fav sim racing > car. > > But.....a sim means "simulated" or "simulation of the real thing." > > Would you fly a plane in a flight sim from the top of the rear tail andcall > it "flying?" Nope. I'd call it "watching a plane fly"....myself, atleast. > So, if you "drive" from the roof cam...you are watching your car race > race....not racing in it. I think generally speaking....a roof camdriving

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> position would be considered an "arcade" driving position....just because > all the original arcade racers rarely provided anything but some type of > roof cam or "trailer cam"......but there was probably a few exceptions to > that too. > > I would prefer to "drive" from the same position...or as close as the > particular racing sim allows.....to what real world drivers drive from in > that car or series. That's my preference......yours is yours. > > Tom > > >

> Would you fly a plane in a flight sim from the top of the rear tail andcall > it "flying?" No but in real life you can look around the pillars, mirror, etc, by moving your head. After GPL I found the Rally Trophy in-car view claustrophobic, so I switched to the sitting-on-the-front-hood view. OK for the Mini in the demo but I don't know how it will work for the Amazon when the game arrives.

Tom, I find myself using both views. The one thing I can see as an advantage to the "arcade view" is that you can see the back end of the car get loose. In a real car you can "feel" the car. In the sims you can't. You have to rely on sounds and the visual attitude of the car. Also, if you are playing GPL, the arcade view is nice at a start. You can see the cars around you a little better than in the mirrors. I guess I would agree with DJspeedy when he says "it IS a game" and which ever view gives you more enjoyment that's what you go with. "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qtue8.25109$[email hidden]... > I personally don't care where somebody likes to view their fav sim racing > car. > > But.....a sim means "simulated" or "simulation of the real thing." > > Would you fly a plane in a flight sim from the top of the rear tail andcall > it "flying?" Nope. I'd call it "watching a plane fly"....myself, atleast. > So, if you "drive" from the roof cam...you are watching your car race > race....not racing in it. I think generally speaking....a roof camdriving

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> position would be considered an "arcade" driving position....just because > all the original arcade racers rarely provided anything but some type of > roof cam or "trailer cam"......but there was probably a few exceptions to > that too. > > I would prefer to "drive" from the same position...or as close as the > particular racing sim allows.....to what real world drivers drive from in > that car or series. That's my preference......yours is yours. > > Tom > > >

Tom Pabst wrote:

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> > I personally don't care where somebody likes to view their fav sim racing > car. > > But.....a sim means "simulated" or "simulation of the real thing." > > Would you fly a plane in a flight sim from the top of the rear tail and call > it "flying?" Nope. I'd call it "watching a plane fly"....myself, at least. > So, if you "drive" from the roof cam...you are watching your car race > race....not racing in it. I think generally speaking....a roof cam driving > position would be considered an "arcade" driving position....just because > all the original arcade racers rarely provided anything but some type of > roof cam or "trailer cam"......but there was probably a few exceptions to > that too.

Bravo! Couldn't have said it better. Geez... agreeing with both DGF & Tom Pabst all in the same month? Gotta be getting old & soft. ;-) -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

DJ... Many online sim racers don't think of this "hobby" of theirs....as a "game." Or at least...not in the traditional sense of the word. Racing is racing.....and if sim racing is realistic....then its no more of a "game" to the beholder....than is real racing a "game" to Jeff Gordon or any other real-world driver. Its a point of reference....for the beholder, IMHO. Tom "DJSpeedy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PEue8.106006$[email hidden]...

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> Tom, in some cases there IS no choice. Those people to which I refer are > those that tend to get disoriented in the cockpit view (me being one of > them) so there really is no option BUT to use the arcade (or other out of > car) view. > > But I wish they hadn't of gotten rid of the "high" view. But that's > Sierra's "preference". :-) > > Sure, it may be unrealistic, but dammit - it IS a game, still with a lot

of

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> work to do I might add. > > Tom Pabst wrote in message ... > > >that car or series. That's my preference......yours is yours. > > > >Tom > > > > > > > >

Oh man....now "the uncle" is agreeing with me! What have I done? I've got to go back to those bragging, name dropping, asshole posts really fast...this is getting completely out of hand....lol... TP "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Tom Pabst wrote: > > > > I personally don't care where somebody likes to view their fav simracing > > car. > > > > But.....a sim means "simulated" or "simulation of the real thing." > > > > Would you fly a plane in a flight sim from the top of the rear tail andcall > > it "flying?" Nope. I'd call it "watching a plane fly"....myself, atleast. > > So, if you "drive" from the roof cam...you are watching your car race > > race....not racing in it. I think generally speaking....a roof camdriving > > position would be considered an "arcade" driving position....justbecause > > all the original arcade racers rarely provided anything but some type of > > roof cam or "trailer cam"......but there was probably a few exceptionsto

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> > that too. > > > Bravo! Couldn't have said it better. Geez... agreeing with both DGF & > Tom Pabst all in the same month? Gotta be getting old & soft. ;-) > > -- > > Fester > > "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no > brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" > from alt.linux.mandrake NG

I think there is a big difference between the "kite" view and "roof" view. I can see people feeling the "kite" view is arcadish as you are out of the car and react to the car movements and can see the cars around you. Personally I think people should use the view that makes them drive the best, especially for online racing. The roof view however I think is very close to the cockpit view and still gives the same sense of realism. You still only see the hood for the most part and the gauges and mirror are all visible. If the sense of being able to look left and right was better in the cockpit view I would use it as well but find it limits the field of view just enough to cause an issue with clean driving and adds little to the sense of realism for me. If the game supported 3 monitors so I could look left/right using my eyes, as opposed to the snap left/right as in N2002 then I would use it for sure, but as implemented it's not great. "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qtue8.25109$[email hidden]... > I personally don't care where somebody likes to view their fav sim racing > car. > > But.....a sim means "simulated" or "simulation of the real thing." > > Would you fly a plane in a flight sim from the top of the rear tail andcall > it "flying?" Nope. I'd call it "watching a plane fly"....myself, atleast. > So, if you "drive" from the roof cam...you are watching your car race > race....not racing in it. I think generally speaking....a roof camdriving

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> position would be considered an "arcade" driving position....just because > all the original arcade racers rarely provided anything but some type of > roof cam or "trailer cam"......but there was probably a few exceptions to > that too. > > I would prefer to "drive" from the same position...or as close as the > particular racing sim allows.....to what real world drivers drive from in > that car or series. That's my preference......yours is yours. > > Tom > > >

"Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Bravo! Couldn't have said it better. Geez... agreeing with both DGF & > Tom Pabst all in the same month? Gotta be getting old & soft. ;-) That's nothing. There's a recent post with DGF asking Eldred to put up a Nascar race on one of his servers. Skate prices just tripled in Hell ;)

I usually drive from the cockpit view because I think it gives me the best reference to where my car is on the track, what rotation angle I have, etc. However the cockpit view cannot be considered to be truly realistic until we all have wrap-around monitors or VR headgear. There is just no way with current hardware to do an adequate cockpit view that give you both the FOV you would have in real life and yet doesn't distort objects or restrict your view to a little slit across the middle of the screen. If I had to drive my real car with that kind of tunnel vision view I doubt that I would be able to get to work in one piece. Because of this I think it is reasonable to allow people to switch to a view which allows them to see around a little better, and I also think it is reasonable to allow people to customize the eye point and FOV of their view within reasonable limits. "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qtue8.25109$[email hidden]... > I personally don't care where somebody likes to view their fav simracing > car. > > But.....a sim means "simulated" or "simulation of the real thing." > > Would you fly a plane in a flight sim from the top of the rear tailand call > it "flying?" Nope. I'd call it "watching a plane fly"....myself, atleast. > So, if you "drive" from the roof cam...you are watching your car race > race....not racing in it. I think generally speaking....a roof camdriving > position would be considered an "arcade" driving position....justbecause > all the original arcade racers rarely provided anything but some typeof > roof cam or "trailer cam"......but there was probably a few exceptionsto > that too. > > I would prefer to "drive" from the same position...or as close as the > particular racing sim allows.....to what real world drivers drive fromin > that car or series. That's my preference......yours is yours. > > Tom > > >

If you generalize, it falls into the game category, but it is specifically marketed and sold as a sim. Do you get the disorientation when you drive a real car? -- Biz "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and the....." - Ash DJSpeedy <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PEue8.106006$[email hidden]... > Tom, in some cases there IS no choice. Those people to which I refer are > those that tend to get disoriented in the cockpit view (me being one of > them) so there really is no option BUT to use the arcade (or other out of > car) view. > > But I wish they hadn't of gotten rid of the "high" view. But that's > Sierra's "preference". :-) > > Sure, it may be unrealistic, but dammit - it IS a game, still with a lot of > work to do I might add. > > Tom Pabst wrote in message ... > > >that car or series. That's my preference......yours is yours. > > > >Tom > > > > > > > >

LOL. Either way I get a laugh.;) "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:66ve8.23909$dK1.94036@rwcrnsc54...

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> Oh man....now "the uncle" is agreeing with me! What have I done? > > I've got to go back to those bragging, name dropping, asshole posts really > fast...this is getting completely out of hand....lol... > > TP >

my opinion is... these are games which approximate some of the features / feelings / sounds / views of real life racing. they are constrained by the limitations of a pc setup versus sitting in a real car. i have a 17inch monitor only. i only use the side views in gpl to read the pitboards (since installing the FOV tweaks). you guys with 3 monitors and surround sound may feel differently because of the extra feedback. if using a bumper cam or wider angle view (rooftop), external view, etc to compensate for the lack of real world input, then go for it. i frequently switch between both views especially when learning a new track. even with hotlapping, i enjoy the visual feedback from seeing the back of the car hitting and responding to kerbs. later when i'm in the cockpit view, i can sort of assimilate that info better when it happens and i have to detect the same motion without the visual cue. also, when you're trying to figure out the AI, its nice to have an allround view to see what they do and how they react to you. a number of people criticise the use of ghost mode & external views. i couldn't be happier to have them. if someone could just implement the same multi-ghost features as found in Pod, i'd be a happy man! so bottom line, i'm happy to be suspended 15 meters behind and slightly above my car every now and then. wish i could do it in real life! Regards all, istoff

>"Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote > If the game supported 3 monitors Well, it does ;) Server + clients in live feed on 3 PC's, forcing the keypress on the two clients. It's done like that for GPL, in a much better way still... -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:15:01 GMT, "Rob Adams" <[email hidden]> wrote: >That's nothing. There's a recent post with DGF asking Eldred to put up a >Nascar race on one of his servers. Skate prices just tripled in Hell ;) Oh man this post is funny as hell :)) Looking forward to the race, racing with RAS'ers is way cool as the Eldred GPL GP's allready proved. Just be prepared for some mind-tricking games from Asbjorn.. Andre

"Art McEwen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5du3t$q5n$[email hidden]... > > No but in real life you can look around the pillars, mirror, etc, bymoving > your head. > > After GPL I found the Rally Trophy in-car view claustrophobic, so Iswitched > to the sitting-on-the-front-hood view. OK for the Mini in the demo but I > don't know how it will work for the Amazon when the game arrives. > >I have to agree with your first statement. On a screen, we can only see so much of the simulated world. Unless a person has a VR hemlet /and/ a panning view, there's only so far you can go in a simulation to run into the game portion. The same applies with flight sims. Sure, you can fly with a 2D cockpit...but obtaining a visual ID is much harder when you don't have complete freedom to look around, as in real life. Honestly, I think it's up to the player and which view he prefers. In-Car view is like the real thing, but your view is hampered. A external or roof cam offers more view, but sets back in the 'realism' department. Another thing the initial poster has to understand is that not everyone plays their title as a simulation, but as a game. Something they do for leisure and not emulate the real thing to the Tee. Sure, I may like to use the In-Car and Roof Cam from time to time, but other people may not. Fact: They payed for the game, therefore they're entitled to play it how they see fit...not always the same as the initial posters idea. -Will

William Bradshaw wrote:

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> > "Art McEwen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:a5du3t$q5n$[email hidden]... > > > > No but in real life you can look around the pillars, mirror, etc, by > moving > > your head. > > > > After GPL I found the Rally Trophy in-car view claustrophobic, so I > switched > > to the sitting-on-the-front-hood view. OK for the Mini in the demo but I > > don't know how it will work for the Amazon when the game arrives. > > > > > I have to agree with your first statement. On a screen, we can only see so > much of the simulated world. Unless a person has a VR hemlet /and/ a panning > view, there's only so far you can go in a simulation to run into the game > portion. The same applies with flight sims. Sure, you can fly with a 2D > cockpit...but obtaining a visual ID is much harder when you don't have > complete freedom to look around, as in real life.

http://www.headtracking.com/ Now if Papy added mouse look to N2002 and you had one of these:- http://www.stereo3d.com/hmd.htm

Another point to remember is that flight sims usually offer a lot more time to react than a racing sim. You have more time and room to react and thus looking left and right doesn't throw off your point of reference as badly as it does doing 180mph a foot from a wall and other cars. "William Bradshaw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > "Art McEwen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:a5du3t$q5n$[email hidden]... > > > > No but in real life you can look around the pillars, mirror, etc, by > moving > > your head. > > > > After GPL I found the Rally Trophy in-car view claustrophobic, so I > switched > > to the sitting-on-the-front-hood view. OK for the Mini in the demo but

I > > don't know how it will work for the Amazon when the game arrives. > > > > > I have to agree with your first statement. On a screen, we can only see so > much of the simulated world. Unless a person has a VR hemlet /and/ apanning

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> view, there's only so far you can go in a simulation to run into the game > portion. The same applies with flight sims. Sure, you can fly with a 2D > cockpit...but obtaining a visual ID is much harder when you don't have > complete freedom to look around, as in real life. > > Honestly, I think it's up to the player and which view he prefers. In-Car > view is like the real thing, but your view is hampered. A external or roof > cam offers more view, but sets back in the 'realism' department. > > Another thing the initial poster has to understand is that not everyone > plays their title as a simulation, but as a game. Something they do for > leisure and not emulate the real thing to the Tee. Sure, I may like to use > the In-Car and Roof Cam from time to time, but other people may not. > > Fact: They payed for the game, therefore they're entitled to play it how > they see fit...not always the same as the initial posters idea. > > -Will > >

William Bradshaw wrote:

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> > "Art McEwen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:a5du3t$q5n$[email hidden]... > > > > No but in real life you can look around the pillars, mirror, etc, by > moving > > your head. > > > > After GPL I found the Rally Trophy in-car view claustrophobic, so I > switched > > to the sitting-on-the-front-hood view. OK for the Mini in the demo but I > > don't know how it will work for the Amazon when the game arrives. > > > > > I have to agree with your first statement. On a screen, we can only see so > much of the simulated world. Unless a person has a VR hemlet /and/ a panning > view, there's only so far you can go in a simulation to run into the game > portion. The same applies with flight sims. Sure, you can fly with a 2D > cockpit...but obtaining a visual ID is much harder when you don't have > complete freedom to look around, as in real life.

http://www.headtracking.com/ Now if Papy added mouse look to N2002 and you had one of these:- http://www.stereo3d.com/hmd.htm

Yup, stereo vision goggles with head movement tracking would be great but I think we are a long way off for that yet as it would take a lot of graphics power to render the scenes fast enough with the point of view always changing but we can dream :) "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > William Bradshaw wrote: > > > > "Art McEwen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:a5du3t$q5n$[email hidden]... > > > > > > No but in real life you can look around the pillars, mirror, etc, by > > moving > > > your head. > > > > > > After GPL I found the Rally Trophy in-car view claustrophobic, so I > > switched > > > to the sitting-on-the-front-hood view. OK for the Mini in the demo

but I > > > don't know how it will work for the Amazon when the game arrives. > > > > > > > > I have to agree with your first statement. On a screen, we can only seeso > > much of the simulated world. Unless a person has a VR hemlet /and/ apanning > > view, there's only so far you can go in a simulation to run into thegame

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> > portion. The same applies with flight sims. Sure, you can fly with a 2D > > cockpit...but obtaining a visual ID is much harder when you don't have > > complete freedom to look around, as in real life. > > http://www.headtracking.com/ > > Now if Papy added mouse look to N2002 and you had one of these:- > > http://www.stereo3d.com/hmd.htm

I'm 6' and i really cant see squat of the hood of my '01 Z28. In the in-car view in 2002 I see the tips if the righ/left front fender bulges. A little low or not, IMO, what I need to see in front of me is track and cars, not my own car, I know where it is I HOPE. -- Biz "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and the....." - Ash SimRacer <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hVue8.61604$[email hidden]... > I agree with you for the most part here Tom, my only complaint being this: > The in-car view is too low. I have been in real cup cars, several of them. > Whether or not their seat position was correct shall remain to be seen, but > when I was in them (the 20, the 8, and the 18, show cars, last year) I could > see SOME hood. Not so in the sim, no hood. So given that, I am inclined at 1 > track (your fav I think) to use the roof view so I can see the upcoming > hills. Other than that, I tolerate the DE-right-on-the-floorboard-in-car > view. If they could give us a LITTLE hood in the view so we can better see > whats ahead in a non-level environment, I'd never get out of the car. I > understand it is semi-blind driving in real life, but I also think at my > height (6'3") that in a REAL cup car, I can dang near see the front of the > car (about like in my real life Camaros, lot of hood, no front end > obviously). You can't see past the windsheild in the current NR2002 cockpit > view...my only complaint and reasoning for the 'cheater' view I have to use > @ SP. Y'all flatten that track out a little and we'll talk ;) > > > Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:qtue8.25109$[email hidden]... > > I personally don't care where somebody likes to view their fav sim racing > > car. > > > > But.....a sim means "simulated" or "simulation of the real thing." > > > > Would you fly a plane in a flight sim from the top of the rear tail and > call > > it "flying?" Nope. I'd call it "watching a plane fly"....myself, at > least. > > So, if you "drive" from the roof cam...you are watching your car race > > race....not racing in it. I think generally speaking....a roof cam > driving > > position would be considered an "arcade" driving position....just because > > all the original arcade racers rarely provided anything but some type of > > roof cam or "trailer cam"......but there was probably a few exceptions to > > that too. > > > > I would prefer to "drive" from the same position...or as close as the > > particular racing sim allows.....to what real world drivers drive from in > > that car or series. That's my preference......yours is yours. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > >

Schooner wrote: > > Yup, stereo vision goggles with head movement tracking would be great but I > think we are a long way off for that yet as it would take a lot of graphics > power to render the scenes fast enough with the point of view always > changing but we can dream :) Why would POV always be changing? Anyway, think about it, my current CPU is 1.1gig the next will be 2.2 so the power and the technology is here now. But sadly the money isn't! :(

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:56:29 GMT, "SimRacer" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I agree with you for the most part here Tom, my only complaint being this: >The in-car view is too low. I have been in real cup cars, several of them. I tried the hood cam tonight after reading this thread (call me crazy but I allways use cockpit view in whatever sim :) and my biggest problem is that you have a big advantage with the hood cam. It's much more easier to see how close you are driving to the apron compared to the cockpit view.. Oh well, since most serious sim-minded leagues force the cockpit view this shouldn't be too much of a problem. And I agree it's nice that the hood, roof, f10 or whatever cam is optional for people who can't stand the cockpit view. To each his own :) Andre

>"Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote > Why would POV always be changing? Well look at the little small micro change in your own POV when you drive a car. You would need such small POV changes (in the fractions of a degree on either axis) or you would become dissoriented by the "fake reality" that your senses are perceiving. I don't even know if it could model translations of axis. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

How many times do you use the F3 screen -- Tim White INTRAC Motorsports www.birds-i-view.com/intrac "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qtue8.25109$[email hidden]... But.....a sim means "simulated" or "simulation of the real thing." Would you fly a plane in a flight sim from the top of the rear tail and call it "flying?" Nope. I'd call it "watching a plane fly"....myself, at least. So, if you "drive" from the roof cam...you are watching your car race race....not racing in it. I think generally speaking....a roof cam driving position would be considered an "arcade" driving position....just because all the original arcade racers rarely provided anything but some type of roof cam or "trailer cam"......but there was probably a few exceptions to that too. I would prefer to "drive" from the same position...or as close as the particular racing sim allows.....to what real world drivers drive from in that car or series. That's my preference......yours is yours. Tom

"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:15:01 GMT, "Rob Adams" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >That's nothing. There's a recent post with DGF asking Eldred to put up a > >Nascar race on one of his servers. Skate prices just tripled in Hell ;) > > Oh man this post is funny as hell :)) > Looking forward to the race, racing with RAS'ers is way cool as the > Eldred GPL GP's allready proved. Just be prepared for some > mind-tricking games from Asbjorn.. > > Andre

Heeee Haaaaw. Multiple personality disorder. I'll put in my vote for either the Coca Cola track, Talladega, or Daytona. Fixed setup. Four wide at Coca Cola could be fun. 8-o Although, Eldred hasn't even said he'd do it yet. David G Fisher

I like and prefer the roof view... I can run just fine in cockpit, but really, it's so unrealistic I can barely stand it. Driving in my car is NOTHING like that. Roof is the closest thing to what I see out of a car in real life, so I use that. I also turn off the rollcage in the mirror, as that is unrealistic also. When I look through a mirror, I *only* see what's behind my car, not in it. Whatever though, if it makes someone feel more special in the supposed "cockpit" view, more power to them. Enjoy it all you want. If you try to convince me and tell me MY viewpoints, you're surely wasting your breath. ::shrugg:: I could really care less if it bothers someone that I'm using what I deem as the most realistic view. I have made all of my view's roof view, so when someone tries to force the cockpit view on me, all they are really doing is forcing one of my roof views. I love that! It's funny though, as they think they are making me play their way, but they thought wrong. MWAHAHAHA! "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qtue8.25109$[email hidden]... > I personally don't care where somebody likes to view their fav sim racing > car. > > But.....a sim means "simulated" or "simulation of the real thing." > > Would you fly a plane in a flight sim from the top of the rear tail andcall > it "flying?" Nope. I'd call it "watching a plane fly"....myself, atleast. > So, if you "drive" from the roof cam...you are watching your car race > race....not racing in it. I think generally speaking....a roof camdriving

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> position would be considered an "arcade" driving position....just because > all the original arcade racers rarely provided anything but some type of > roof cam or "trailer cam"......but there was probably a few exceptions to > that too. > > I would prefer to "drive" from the same position...or as close as the > particular racing sim allows.....to what real world drivers drive from in > that car or series. That's my preference......yours is yours. > > Tom > > >

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David G Fisher wrote:

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> > Heeee Haaaaw. > > Multiple personality disorder. > > I'll put in my vote for either the Coca Cola track, Talladega, or Daytona. > Fixed setup. Four wide at Coca Cola could be fun. 8-o

I'll second Coca Cola fixed. 100 lap minimum. > Although, Eldred hasn't even said he'd do it yet. Cmon Eldred!! -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

Rob Adams wrote:

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> > "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Bravo! Couldn't have said it better. Geez... agreeing with both DGF & > > Tom Pabst all in the same month? Gotta be getting old & soft. ;-) > > That's nothing. There's a recent post with DGF asking Eldred to put up a > Nascar race on one of his servers. Skate prices just tripled in Hell ;)

Wouldn't it be funny as hell if DGF actually *beat* all of us?!? We'd never live that one down. Think we'd have to leave the NG in shame... <g> -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> writes:

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> On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:15:01 GMT, "Rob Adams" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >That's nothing. There's a recent post with DGF asking Eldred to put up a > >Nascar race on one of his servers. Skate prices just tripled in Hell ;) > > Oh man this post is funny as hell :)) > Looking forward to the race, racing with RAS'ers is way cool as the > Eldred GPL GP's allready proved. Just be prepared for some > mind-tricking games from Asbjorn..

Unfortunally, I don't have N4 or N2002 or Nascar heat or any other Nascar game. I had N4 (HK version, not the best for online racing ;-) for a while, but I just can't stand driving those boats around. I have also been real short on free time lately, trying to enhance my "rich, old bastard" image by picking up golf of all things. (Actually, if the rich part was true, I would be doing some RL racing instead I guess, but that's life.) So the small amount of driving I have dont lately is with the GT mod and some GPL Nuerburgrings. (How come I can improve my lap times at most tracs pretty easily (an evening hotlapping, and perhaps jumping into the lotus seems to do the trick), but am 20 sec off my Nuerburgring record?) I've figured out why I like GPL so much, though. And the reason is that contrary to what most people claim, the cars are so easy to drive. I'm just not good enough for modern racecars, I GPL things happens much slower so I can keep up. (Kinda, it helps if the opposition are clueless enough to put the cars in the barriers too... :) 17 lines to say; sorry, I won't be there. Not too bad. -- -asbjxrn

I'll go out on a limb and make a serious argument for the roof cam view. The problem with the cockpit view is that you only have tunnel vision. In other words, you can only see out the front windsheild and rearview mirror and that my friend, is not realistic. Imagine driving your car on the freeway with aluminum foil on the side windows. No problem if you stay in your lane and go straight but real racing means being aware of vehicles around you at all times using your peripheral vision. Sure I know you can look left and right in N4 for example but physically looking left or right is not the same. In aerial dogfighting the saying goes, "Lose sight, lose the fight". The same is true in race driving. The roof cam solves this important issue because it introduces your peripheral skills to the sim. You are still keeping your eyes on where you are going but your peripheral vision can pick up vehicles coming up on your sides. Then again, the roof cam does give you an unfair sight distance with the extra height. Of course the roof cam is not the perfect solution either. The perfect solution in my opinion will evolve once we have 3 monitors--1 in front for the forward view, and 1 on each side on constant side views. Maybe a VR solution will mature before that but either way, that will be the day! -Tim "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qtue8.25109$[email hidden]... > I personally don't care where somebody likes to view their fav sim racing > car. > > But.....a sim means "simulated" or "simulation of the real thing." > > Would you fly a plane in a flight sim from the top of the rear tail andcall > it "flying?" Nope. I'd call it "watching a plane fly"....myself, atleast. > So, if you "drive" from the roof cam...you are watching your car race > race....not racing in it. I think generally speaking....a roof camdriving

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> position would be considered an "arcade" driving position....just because > all the original arcade racers rarely provided anything but some type of > roof cam or "trailer cam"......but there was probably a few exceptions to > that too. > > I would prefer to "drive" from the same position...or as close as the > particular racing sim allows.....to what real world drivers drive from in > that car or series. That's my preference......yours is yours. > > Tom > > >

NOOOOOOOOO !!!! No degaheads, short or medium track dammit!!! :) -John "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:FYCe8.68013$[email hidden]...

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> > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:15:01 GMT, "Rob Adams" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >That's nothing. There's a recent post with DGF asking Eldred to put up

a

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> > >Nascar race on one of his servers. Skate prices just tripled in Hell ;) > > > > Oh man this post is funny as hell :)) > > Looking forward to the race, racing with RAS'ers is way cool as the > > Eldred GPL GP's allready proved. Just be prepared for some > > mind-tricking games from Asbjorn.. > > > > Andre > > Heeee Haaaaw. > > Multiple personality disorder. > > I'll put in my vote for either the Coca Cola track, Talladega, or Daytona. > Fixed setup. Four wide at Coca Cola could be fun. 8-o > > Although, Eldred hasn't even said he'd do it yet. > > David G Fisher > >

You're not driving in your car; you're driving in a simulated race car :) -John "shpankey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:g2De8.11845$[email hidden]... > I like and prefer the roof view... I can run just fine in cockpit, but > really, it's so unrealistic I can barely stand it. Driving in my car is > NOTHING like that. Roof is the closest thing to what I see out of a car in > real life, so I use that. I also turn off the rollcage in the mirror, as > that is unrealistic also. When I look through a mirror, I *only* seewhat's

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> behind my car, not in it. > > Whatever though, if it makes someone feel more special in the supposed > "cockpit" view, more power to them. Enjoy it all you want. > > If you try to convince me and tell me MY viewpoints, you're surely wasting > your breath. ::shrugg:: I could really care less if it bothers someone

that

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> I'm using what I deem as the most realistic view. > > I have made all of my view's roof view, so when someone tries to force the > cockpit view on me, all they are really doing is forcing one of my roof > views. > > I love that! It's funny though, as they think they are making me play

their

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> way, but they thought wrong. MWAHAHAHA! > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:qtue8.25109$[email hidden]... > > I personally don't care where somebody likes to view their fav sim

racing

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> > car. > > > > But.....a sim means "simulated" or "simulation of the real thing." > > > > Would you fly a plane in a flight sim from the top of the rear tail and > call > > it "flying?" Nope. I'd call it "watching a plane fly"....myself, at > least. > > So, if you "drive" from the roof cam...you are watching your car race > > race....not racing in it. I think generally speaking....a roof cam > driving > > position would be considered an "arcade" driving position....just

because > > all the original arcade racers rarely provided anything but some type of > > roof cam or "trailer cam"......but there was probably a few exceptionsto > > that too. > > > > I would prefer to "drive" from the same position...or as close as the > > particular racing sim allows.....to what real world drivers drive fromin

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> > that car or series. That's my preference......yours is yours. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > >

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qtue8.25109$[email hidden]... > Would you fly a plane in a flight sim from the top of the rear tailand call > it "flying?" Nope. I'd call it "watching a plane fly"....myself, atleast. > So, if you "drive" from the roof cam...you are watching your car race > race....not racing in it. I think generally speaking....a roof camdriving > position would be considered an "arcade" driving position....justbecause > all the original arcade racers rarely provided anything but some typeof > roof cam or "trailer cam"......but there was probably a few exceptionsto > that too. Actually, I'd have to disagree. Unless your viewpoint in the cockpit SHIFTS the way you want to shift (basically, you look INTO the turn), then that's realistic. A FIXED in-cockpit view that only looks straight ahead or shifts about 2 inches left/right as you turn is hardly realistic, no matter how the steering wheel and the hands move inside. The inside view just don't offer enough view of the road.

Anybody done that yet and does it work? "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9Hwe8.3439$[email hidden]...

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> >"Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote > > If the game supported 3 monitors > > Well, it does ;) > > Server + clients in live feed on 3 PC's, forcing the keypress on the two > clients. It's done like that for GPL, in a much better way still... > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

Yeah Andre.....I would agree with you on the "advantage" of the roof cam....and I'm sure most serious leagues will not allow it. But....when one considers that some people have different views about how they want to enjoy their "hobby" of sim racing. Some want to be as realistic as possible....the "simmers"....if you want to call it that, are less concerned with winning than they are with sim racing at as close to realistic conditions of real-world WC drivers as the software/hardware can create. Others, more interested in "winning" or hotlapping....will use what ever advantage they can muster.....to win or run fast laps. That doesn't make them wrong.....it only makes them part of a different group. They should have equal footing and equal "rights" as the simmers in all aspects of the software provided by Papyrus and other developers. I'm a "simmer"....no doubt about it. But, if all I cared about was winning......I'd drive from the roof cam too. The fact that Papy's cockpit is a bit low....well, hey - its the same for everyone......so be it (until we have an FOV editor to change it). You guys who drive from the roof cam have to appreciate that this gives you an advantage over the cockpit drivers....and that you will run into situations where you will not be allowed to participate in races/leagues....driving from the roof cam. As long as you are "okay" with that....then I say "have at it"....and have fun doing it.....more power to you. Tom "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:56:29 GMT, "SimRacer" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >I agree with you for the most part here Tom, my only complaint beingthis: > >The in-car view is too low. I have been in real cup cars, several ofthem.

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> > I tried the hood cam tonight after reading this thread (call me crazy > but I allways use cockpit view in whatever sim :) and my biggest > problem is that you have a big advantage with the hood cam. > It's much more easier to see how close you are driving to the apron > compared to the cockpit view.. > > Oh well, since most serious sim-minded leagues force the cockpit view > this shouldn't be too much of a problem. > > And I agree it's nice that the hood, roof, f10 or whatever cam is > optional for people who can't stand the cockpit view. > To each his own :) > > Andre

On 26 Feb 2002 06:34:59 +0100, [email hidden] (Asbj�rn Bj�rnstad) wrote: >Unfortunally, I don't have N4 or N2002 or Nascar heat or any other >Nascar game. I had N4 (HK version, not the best for online racing ;-) >for a while, but I just can't stand driving those boats around. I have Hong Kong version is a cool word for a copy eh :) Maybe you allready read this in another post from me, but I had the same feeling about N4 (stupid boats) while I love N2002. The cars are actually damn fun to drive on the limit, and I'm slowly but steady learning the strategies involved in Nascar racing now, and it's simply damn fun. It took me time to realize, but: simply don't compare it to GPL, it's a total different type of sport. Try to get a HK version first to see if you like it, or try the demo, then buy it so you can make me fall asleep again and win :) >with the GT mod and some GPL Nuerburgrings. (How come I can improve my >lap times at most tracs pretty easily (an evening hotlapping, and >perhaps jumping into the lotus seems to do the trick), but am 20 sec >off my Nuerburgring record?) Because the Ring can't be compared with any other track in GPL.. It requires a -lot- of practice unless you're one of these aliens, and for the most part the Ring is pure mental.. the hardest part is keeping up the speed at the maximum during the whole lap, you're likely to slow down halfway because you either get mentally tired or you're too afraid of spoiling your perfect lap so far. What I did was use Replay Ananlyzer a lot. Simply don't be affraid to crash the car, go on practicing after each crash without getting pissed, and use RA to see how well you did on the spots where you did not crash. After enough practice the crash-free laps will come by itself and you will improve steadily. What is your average laptime on the Ring now btw? >I've figured out why I like GPL so much, though. And the reason is that >contrary to what most people claim, the cars are so easy to drive. I'm >just not good enough for modern racecars, I GPL things happens much slower >so I can keep up. (Kinda, it helps if the opposition are clueless enough to >put the cars in the barriers too... :) N2002 really feels slower than GPL.. unless you make a small mistake and you will have crashed within 1/100th of a second :) >17 lines to say; sorry, I won't be there. Not too bad. 23 lines to convince you otherwise :) Andre > -asbjxrn

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 04:22:02 GMT, Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> wrote: >I'll second Coca Cola fixed. 100 lap minimum. Fine for me. Fixed cockpit view everyone? Andre

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 03:12:12 GMT, "shpankey" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I have made all of my view's roof view, so when someone tries to force the >cockpit view on me, all they are really doing is forcing one of my roof >views. This is so easy possible? Everybody should ofcourse be free what to view they want to use, so far nobody in this thread disagrees with that, but if a host is forcing the cockpit view it should not be possible to still use the hood view in the way you describe. A forced cockpit view makes sure everybody is equally handicapped with a restricted vision. With the hood view you have a big advantage. :-/ Andre

[email hidden] (Andre Warringa) writes:

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> On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 03:12:12 GMT, "shpankey" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >I have made all of my view's roof view, so when someone tries to force the > >cockpit view on me, all they are really doing is forcing one of my roof > >views. > > This is so easy possible? Everybody should ofcourse be free what to > view they want to use, so far nobody in this thread disagrees with > that, but if a host is forcing the cockpit view it should not be > possible to still use the hood view in the way you describe. > > A forced cockpit view makes sure everybody is equally handicapped with > a restricted vision. With the hood view you have a big advantage. :-/

But only have half the fun :) What i simply love about the N4 cockpit view is the claustophobia. It's like skijumping, as a colleague said to me when I was psyching up to do the 12 meter hill and started only halfway up "You don't get the full joy of the jump if you only take half speed". And it is a wonderful feeling to ski down to the jump very fast and then fly for 10 meters :) I would never in my life consider trying a bigger hill though. Do I get a record for best OT-turned post ? :) -- Olav K. Malmin remove .spam when replying

Tom, you seem to imply that only leagues that force the roof view are "serious". I know of many leagues that don't enforce that view that are just as serious about clean competitive racing as the cockpit viewers. We don't all hot lap or focus just on winning races. I run in a league that runs 100% races and the main focus is on good finishes and having clean races and the overall points, not winning each race. There will be people in every league that focus more on winning than a good finish but please don't think that only those that force cockpit view are the only serious leagues, again you seem to feel elite because of the view you use and that your racing is better and more serious than others and that is just not true. "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jrFe8.9333$bs1.195273@sccrnsc01...

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> Yeah Andre.....I would agree with you on the "advantage" of the roof > cam....and I'm sure most serious leagues will not allow it. > > But....when one considers that some people have different views about how > they want to enjoy their "hobby" of sim racing. Some want to be as > realistic as possible....the "simmers"....if you want to call it that, are > less concerned with winning than they are with sim racing at as close to > realistic conditions of real-world WC drivers as the software/hardware can > create. Others, more interested in "winning" or hotlapping....will use

what

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> ever advantage they can muster.....to win or run fast laps. That doesn't > make them wrong.....it only makes them part of a different group. They > should have equal footing and equal "rights" as the simmers in all aspects > of the software provided by Papyrus and other developers. > > I'm a "simmer"....no doubt about it. But, if all I cared about was > winning......I'd drive from the roof cam too. The fact that Papy's

cockpit > is a bit low....well, hey - its the same for everyone......so be it (until > we have an FOV editor to change it). > > You guys who drive from the roof cam have to appreciate that this givesyou > an advantage over the cockpit drivers....and that you will run into > situations where you will not be allowed to participate in > races/leagues....driving from the roof cam. As long as you are "okay"with

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> that....then I say "have at it"....and have fun doing it.....more power to > you. > > Tom > > > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:56:29 GMT, "SimRacer" <[email hidden]> > > wrote: > > > > >I agree with you for the most part here Tom, my only complaint being > this: > > >The in-car view is too low. I have been in real cup cars, several of > them. > > > > I tried the hood cam tonight after reading this thread (call me crazy > > but I allways use cockpit view in whatever sim :) and my biggest > > problem is that you have a big advantage with the hood cam. > > It's much more easier to see how close you are driving to the apron > > compared to the cockpit view.. > > > > Oh well, since most serious sim-minded leagues force the cockpit view > > this shouldn't be too much of a problem. > > > > And I agree it's nice that the hood, roof, f10 or whatever cam is > > optional for people who can't stand the cockpit view. > > To each his own :) > > > > Andre > >

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:26:28 -0000, "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote: >We need to respect fairness and sportsmanship. If someone tries to create a >level playfield for a good reason, whether we like this or not, then we must >accept this and not try and sneak into their races under a false pretense. > >Achim Agree completely, but unfortunately it seems the forced cockpit mode is rather useless since you can change the cockpit to hood cam so easily :-/ Andre

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:09:23 -0400, "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Tom, you seem to imply that only leagues that force the roof view are >"serious". I know of many leagues that don't enforce that view that are >just as serious about clean competitive racing as the cockpit viewers. We >don't all hot lap or focus just on winning races. Ofcourse 'hood' drivers are as serious as cockpit drivers, no doubt about that. I cunningly did not reply to Tom's winning/hotlapping remarks to avoid another RAS war :) But the 'serious' part is that when you are racing in a car, you sit on a chair, IN the car, looking through the window. Your view is restricted heavily. So, allthough the cockpit view -may- be off to a real life cockpit view, it's still the closest view to the REAL view. When I drive my sims I want it as realistic as possible. But that is MY personal preference, and whatever you prefer, it's your party. The only thing I do not like is when people change the cockpit cam with the hood cam in a forced cockpit view race. Hood drivers have a clear advantage over cockpit drivers, and if someone joins a cockpit only race with a swapped hood cam, it's simply and purely cheating. Andre

Andre Warringa wrote:

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> > On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 04:22:02 GMT, Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >I'll second Coca Cola fixed. 100 lap minimum. > > Fine for me. Fixed cockpit view everyone?

Fine here, although with all the cheaters out there it won't really matter. :-/ -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

Tim Miser wrote: > > I'll go out on a limb and make a serious argument for the roof cam view. > The problem with the cockpit view is that you only have tunnel vision. In > other words, you can only see out the front windsheild and rearview mirror > and that my friend, is not realistic. Imagine driving your car on the > freeway with aluminum foil on the side windows.... Except your vision in a passenger car is much different than in a NASCAR car. You cannot realistically compare the two. -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

I agree. I would follow any forced views that a server imposed. It is done to make it equal for all not because cockpit is more realistic. Anyone that changes anything in the game from stock is cheating. "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:09:23 -0400, "Schooner" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Tom, you seem to imply that only leagues that force the roof view are > >"serious". I know of many leagues that don't enforce that view that are > >just as serious about clean competitive racing as the cockpit viewers.We

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> >don't all hot lap or focus just on winning races. > > Ofcourse 'hood' drivers are as serious as cockpit drivers, no doubt > about that. I cunningly did not reply to Tom's winning/hotlapping > remarks to avoid another RAS war :) > > But the 'serious' part is that when you are racing in a car, you sit > on a chair, IN the car, looking through the window. Your view is > restricted heavily. > So, allthough the cockpit view -may- be off to a real life cockpit > view, it's still the closest view to the REAL view. > When I drive my sims I want it as realistic as possible. > > But that is MY personal preference, and whatever you prefer, it's your > party. > > The only thing I do not like is when people change the cockpit cam > with the hood cam in a forced cockpit view race. > Hood drivers have a clear advantage over cockpit drivers, and if > someone joins a cockpit only race with a swapped hood cam, it's simply > and purely cheating. > > Andre > >

Hi Tom, different people have different preferences, and like you I have no prob with that. One statement in your message is for me essential, though:

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> You guys who drive from the roof cam have to appreciate that... > [snip] > this gives you an advantage over the cockpit drivers.... > and that you will run into situations where you will not be allowed > to participate in races/leagues....driving from the roof cam. > As long as you are "okay" with that....then I say "have at it" > ....and have fun doing it.....more power to you.

We need to respect fairness and sportsmanship. If someone tries to create a level playfield for a good reason, whether we like this or not, then we must accept this and not try and sneak into their races under a false pretense. Achim

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:40:06 -0000, "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Hi Andre, > >another issue that will probably change with the first patch to N2002... >mwa-ha-ha ;-) > >Achim Well aren't we in a cynical mood today :) Andre

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:45:07 GMT, Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Andre Warringa wrote: >> >> On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 04:22:02 GMT, Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> >> wrote: >> >> >I'll second Coca Cola fixed. 100 lap minimum. >> >> Fine for me. Fixed cockpit view everyone? > > >Fine here, although with all the cheaters out there it won't really >matter. :-/

Let's rely on the honesty of the average RAS'er :) Andre

Just say NO to SS's!!!!!!! :) -John "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> NOOOOOOOOO !!!! No degaheads, short or medium track dammit!!! :) > > -John > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:FYCe8.68013$[email hidden]... > > > > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:15:01 GMT, "Rob Adams" > > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > >That's nothing. There's a recent post with DGF asking Eldred to put

up > a > > > >Nascar race on one of his servers. Skate prices just tripled in Hell;)

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> > > > > > Oh man this post is funny as hell :)) > > > Looking forward to the race, racing with RAS'ers is way cool as the > > > Eldred GPL GP's allready proved. Just be prepared for some > > > mind-tricking games from Asbjorn.. > > > > > > Andre > > > > Heeee Haaaaw. > > > > Multiple personality disorder. > > > > I'll put in my vote for either the Coca Cola track, Talladega, or

Daytona.

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> > Fixed setup. Four wide at Coca Cola could be fun. 8-o > > > > Although, Eldred hasn't even said he'd do it yet. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > >

No Schooner....I don't "imply" that.....I say, "most serious leagues".....that means not "all serious leagues".....at least in my dictionary it does. Second, I was agreeing with Andre.....how come I'm an elitist according to you......but Andre is not? I'm tired of this "elite" crap from some of you guys.......this is one case out of many where "words are put in my mouth"......then someone else reads your assessment of them without actually reading my words....and bingo, two people think I'm an "elitist"......and it goes on and on and on. Your assessment of "what I said" is not only inaccurate....its unfair. Tom "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:LVKe8.21748$[email hidden]...

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> Tom, you seem to imply that only leagues that force the roof view are > "serious". I know of many leagues that don't enforce that view that are > just as serious about clean competitive racing as the cockpit viewers. We > don't all hot lap or focus just on winning races. > > I run in a league that runs 100% races and the main focus is on good > finishes and having clean races and the overall points, not winning each > race. There will be people in every league that focus more on winning

than > a good finish but please don't think that only those that force cockpitview > are the only serious leagues, again you seem to feel elite because of the > view you use and that your racing is better and more serious than othersand

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> that is just not true. > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:jrFe8.9333$bs1.195273@sccrnsc01... > > Yeah Andre.....I would agree with you on the "advantage" of the roof > > cam....and I'm sure most serious leagues will not allow it. > > > > But....when one considers that some people have different views about

how > > they want to enjoy their "hobby" of sim racing. Some want to be as > > realistic as possible....the "simmers"....if you want to call it that,are > > less concerned with winning than they are with sim racing at as close to > > realistic conditions of real-world WC drivers as the software/hardwarecan > > create. Others, more interested in "winning" or hotlapping....will use > what > > ever advantage they can muster.....to win or run fast laps. Thatdoesn't > > make them wrong.....it only makes them part of a different group. They > > should have equal footing and equal "rights" as the simmers in allaspects > > of the software provided by Papyrus and other developers. > > > > I'm a "simmer"....no doubt about it. But, if all I cared about was > > winning......I'd drive from the roof cam too. The fact that Papy's > cockpit > > is a bit low....well, hey - its the same for everyone......so be it(until

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> > we have an FOV editor to change it). > > > > You guys who drive from the roof cam have to appreciate that this gives > you > > an advantage over the cockpit drivers....and that you will run into > > situations where you will not be allowed to participate in > > races/leagues....driving from the roof cam. As long as you are "okay" > with > > that....then I say "have at it"....and have fun doing it.....more power

to

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> > you. > > > > Tom > > > > > > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:56:29 GMT, "SimRacer" <[email hidden]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > >I agree with you for the most part here Tom, my only complaint being > > this: > > > >The in-car view is too low. I have been in real cup cars, several of > > them. > > > > > > I tried the hood cam tonight after reading this thread (call me crazy > > > but I allways use cockpit view in whatever sim :) and my biggest > > > problem is that you have a big advantage with the hood cam. > > > It's much more easier to see how close you are driving to the apron > > > compared to the cockpit view.. > > > > > > Oh well, since most serious sim-minded leagues force the cockpit view > > > this shouldn't be too much of a problem. > > > > > > And I agree it's nice that the hood, roof, f10 or whatever cam is > > > optional for people who can't stand the cockpit view. > > > To each his own :) > > > > > > Andre > > > > > >

Andre... You just "cunningly" did reply to it. .....lol.... Tom "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:09:23 -0400, "Schooner" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Tom, you seem to imply that only leagues that force the roof view are > >"serious". I know of many leagues that don't enforce that view that are > >just as serious about clean competitive racing as the cockpit viewers.We

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> >don't all hot lap or focus just on winning races. > > Ofcourse 'hood' drivers are as serious as cockpit drivers, no doubt > about that. I cunningly did not reply to Tom's winning/hotlapping > remarks to avoid another RAS war :) > > But the 'serious' part is that when you are racing in a car, you sit > on a chair, IN the car, looking through the window. Your view is > restricted heavily. > So, allthough the cockpit view -may- be off to a real life cockpit > view, it's still the closest view to the REAL view. > When I drive my sims I want it as realistic as possible. > > But that is MY personal preference, and whatever you prefer, it's your > party. > > The only thing I do not like is when people change the cockpit cam > with the hood cam in a forced cockpit view race. > Hood drivers have a clear advantage over cockpit drivers, and if > someone joins a cockpit only race with a swapped hood cam, it's simply > and purely cheating. > > Andre > >

Sorry you feel that way but your were the one that generalized and said "MOST", that implies that you feel the majority do does it not? "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ORNe8.314$mG.1856@rwcrnsc54... > No Schooner....I don't "imply" that.....I say, "most serious > leagues".....that means not "all serious leagues".....at least in my > dictionary it does. Second, I was agreeing with Andre.....how come I'm an > elitist according to you......but Andre is not? > > I'm tired of this "elite" crap from some of you guys.......this is onecase > out of many where "words are put in my mouth"......then someone else reads > your assessment of them without actually reading my words....and bingo,two

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> people think I'm an "elitist"......and it goes on and on and on. > > Your assessment of "what I said" is not only inaccurate....its unfair. > > Tom > > > > "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:LVKe8.21748$[email hidden]... > > Tom, you seem to imply that only leagues that force the roof view are > > "serious". I know of many leagues that don't enforce that view that are > > just as serious about clean competitive racing as the cockpit viewers.

We

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> > don't all hot lap or focus just on winning races. > > > > I run in a league that runs 100% races and the main focus is on good > > finishes and having clean races and the overall points, not winning each > > race. There will be people in every league that focus more on winning > than > > a good finish but please don't think that only those that force cockpit > view > > are the only serious leagues, again you seem to feel elite because of

the

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> > view you use and that your racing is better and more serious than others > and > > that is just not true. > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:jrFe8.9333$bs1.195273@sccrnsc01... > > > Yeah Andre.....I would agree with you on the "advantage" of the roof > > > cam....and I'm sure most serious leagues will not allow it. > > > > > > But....when one considers that some people have different views about > how > > > they want to enjoy their "hobby" of sim racing. Some want to be as > > > realistic as possible....the "simmers"....if you want to call it that, > are > > > less concerned with winning than they are with sim racing at as close

to > > > realistic conditions of real-world WC drivers as the software/hardware > can > > > create. Others, more interested in "winning" or hotlapping....willuse > > what > > > ever advantage they can muster.....to win or run fast laps. That > doesn't > > > make them wrong.....it only makes them part of a different group.They

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> > > should have equal footing and equal "rights" as the simmers in all > aspects > > > of the software provided by Papyrus and other developers. > > > > > > I'm a "simmer"....no doubt about it. But, if all I cared about was > > > winning......I'd drive from the roof cam too. The fact that Papy's > > cockpit > > > is a bit low....well, hey - its the same for everyone......so be it > (until > > > we have an FOV editor to change it). > > > > > > You guys who drive from the roof cam have to appreciate that this

gives > > you > > > an advantage over the cockpit drivers....and that you will run into > > > situations where you will not be allowed to participate in > > > races/leagues....driving from the roof cam. As long as you are "okay" > > with > > > that....then I say "have at it"....and have fun doing it.....morepower

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> to > > > you. > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:56:29 GMT, "SimRacer"

<[email hidden]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >I agree with you for the most part here Tom, my only complaintbeing > > > this: > > > > >The in-car view is too low. I have been in real cup cars, severalof > > > them. > > > > > > > > I tried the hood cam tonight after reading this thread (call mecrazy > > > > but I allways use cockpit view in whatever sim :) and my biggest > > > > problem is that you have a big advantage with the hood cam. > > > > It's much more easier to see how close you are driving to the apron > > > > compared to the cockpit view.. > > > > > > > > Oh well, since most serious sim-minded leagues force the cockpitview

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> > > > this shouldn't be too much of a problem. > > > > > > > > And I agree it's nice that the hood, roof, f10 or whatever cam is > > > > optional for people who can't stand the cockpit view. > > > > To each his own :) > > > > > > > > Andre > > > > > > > > > > > >

Hi Andre, another issue that will probably change with the first patch to N2002... mwa-ha-ha ;-) Achim "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:26:28 -0000, "Joachim Trensz" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >We need to respect fairness and sportsmanship. If someone tries to createa > >level playfield for a good reason, whether we like this or not, then wemust > >accept this and not try and sneak into their races under a falsepretense.

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> > > >Achim > > Agree completely, but unfortunately it seems the forced cockpit mode > is rather useless since you can change the cockpit to hood cam so > easily :-/ > > Andre

Schooner wrote: > > Sorry you feel that way but your were the one that generalized and said > "MOST", that implies that you feel the majority do does it not? The majority maybe, but not *ALL*. In your post he replied to, you said: >Tom, you seem to imply that only leagues that force the roof view are >"serious". He did not say that at all. Persecution complex getting the better of you? -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

Joachim Trensz wrote: > > Hi Andre, > > another issue that will probably change with the first patch to N2002... > mwa-ha-ha ;-) Needs to be. One single (in-car) view only for online racing, with any view you want available in offline mode only. That's the only right way for this to be handled. -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

Ah right way, so cockpit view is the right way is it? "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Joachim Trensz wrote: > > > > Hi Andre, > > > > another issue that will probably change with the first patch to N2002... > > mwa-ha-ha ;-) > > > Needs to be. One single (in-car) view only for online racing, with any > view you want available in offline mode only. That's the only right way > for this to be handled. > > -- > > Fester > > "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no > brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" > from alt.linux.mandrake NG

Andre Warringa wrote: > > Let's rely on the honesty of the average RAS'er :) You're right Andre, maybe I'm selling folks short. I apologize to everyone. I have problems trusting people very far. :-) -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

What? Persecution? I just don't see the need to look down on people that use other views is all. What he said was that most serious leagues force cockpit view, which implies that the majority of serious leagues use cockpit instead of other views this making other leagues less serious in my interpretation. What exactly defines a league as being "serious" in your books? The style of racing, view used? A number of leagues don't force real weather or use fixed setups, I personally think it's more realistic to use real settings it but again that is up to the league but that doesn't make them any less serious. "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Schooner wrote: > > > > Sorry you feel that way but your were the one that generalized and said > > "MOST", that implies that you feel the majority do does it not? > > The majority maybe, but not *ALL*. In your post he replied to, you > said: > > >Tom, you seem to imply that only leagues that force the roof view are > >"serious". > > He did not say that at all. Persecution complex getting the better of > you? > > -- > > Fester > > "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no > brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" > from alt.linux.mandrake NG

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:32:23 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Andre... > >You just "cunningly" did reply to it. .....lol.... > >Tom Actually I was very tempted to go into debate again since our opinions about hotlapping are 100% different (and because I'm convinced that I'M RIGHT :) but sensibility took over and I did NOT reply to it :) Andre >> Ofcourse 'hood' drivers are as serious as cockpit drivers, no doubt >> about that. I cunningly did not reply to Tom's winning/hotlapping >> remarks to avoid another RAS war :)

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:45:42 -0400, "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Ah right way, so cockpit view is the right way is it? I think Fester forgot to add 'when the server is set to cockpit-only' :) Andre

Schooner wrote: > > What? Persecution? > > I just don't see the need to look down on people that use other views is > all. We're not. A distaste for a particular tactic does not translate into looking down on those who do them. Or making ourselves elitist. This apparent view that everyone is looking down on you for it when they are not is what prompted my Persecution Complex comment. > What he said was that most serious leagues force cockpit view, which > implies that the majority of serious leagues use cockpit instead of other > views this making other leagues less serious in my interpretation. They do. > What exactly defines a league as being "serious" in your books? The style > of racing, view used? Those with a long history who try, to the best of their ability & the limitations of the sim, to create as realistic a real world racing environment as possible. Not the newly created ones who will cater to whatever whim out there in a quest just to capture as many drivers as possible onto their roster. > A number of leagues don't force real weather or use fixed setups, I > personally think it's more realistic to use real settings it but again that > is up to the league but that doesn't make them any less serious. Fixed setups would only be realistic in an IROC series. And most IROC events have fixed setups. Nothing elitist here, just plain facts. ;-) -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

Schooner wrote:

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> > Ah right way, so cockpit view is the right way is it? > > "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Joachim Trensz wrote: > > > > > > Hi Andre, > > > > > > another issue that will probably change with the first patch to N2002... > > > mwa-ha-ha ;-) > > > > > > Needs to be. One single (in-car) view only for online racing, with any > > view you want available in offline mode only. That's the only right way > > for this to be handled.

That's the only *fair* way. That way those who bought the sim can race any way they please when they are on their own machine. But if they wanna come out & race with the sim community, they can race the same way on a level playing field. Too bad NASCAR won't let Little E drive from his roof. Maybe he could have avoided the debris that flattened his tire! <g> -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

Andre Warringa wrote:

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> > On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:45:42 -0400, "Schooner" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Ah right way, so cockpit view is the right way is it? > > I think Fester forgot to add 'when the server is set to cockpit-only' > :) > > Andre

Ahh yes, my bad. ;-) -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

Ah, well that I can agree with :) "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Andre Warringa wrote: > > > > On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:45:42 -0400, "Schooner" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Ah right way, so cockpit view is the right way is it? > > > > I think Fester forgot to add 'when the server is set to cockpit-only' > > :) > > > > Andre > > > Ahh yes, my bad. ;-) > > -- > > Fester > > "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no > brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" > from alt.linux.mandrake NG

Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jrFe8.9333$bs1.195273@sccrnsc01...

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> Yeah Andre.....I would agree with you on the "advantage" of the roof > cam....and I'm sure most serious leagues will not allow it. > > But....when one considers that some people have different views about how > they want to enjoy their "hobby" of sim racing. Some want to be as > realistic as possible....the "simmers"....if you want to call it that, are > less concerned with winning than they are with sim racing at as close to > realistic conditions of real-world WC drivers as the software/hardware can > create. Others, more interested in "winning" or hotlapping....will use

what

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> ever advantage they can muster.....to win or run fast laps. That doesn't > make them wrong.....it only makes them part of a different group. They > should have equal footing and equal "rights" as the simmers in all aspects > of the software provided by Papyrus and other developers. > > I'm a "simmer"....no doubt about it. But, if all I cared about was > winning......I'd drive from the roof cam too. The fact that Papy's

cockpit > is a bit low....well, hey - its the same for everyone......so be it (until > we have an FOV editor to change it). > > You guys who drive from the roof cam have to appreciate that this givesyou > an advantage over the cockpit drivers....and that you will run into > situations where you will not be allowed to participate in > races/leagues....driving from the roof cam. As long as you are "okay"with > that....then I say "have at it"....and have fun doing it.....more power to > you. > > Tom Well stated Tom, as I stated earlier (under the old handle SimRacer, identity changed for harrassing emails from another group from a psycho person, threatening life and limb :) I only use roof cam at SP and that is because I simply cannot get a rythym going at that track guessing where the apex to T4 is every single lap. Yes the view helps at the hairpin a lot too, but other than those the track is drivable in cockpit view. As for serious leagues forcing cockpit view, well I see that a lot too. I am a league admin and communicate with other league admins and must say the amount of leagues that do force the in car view probably number somehwere around 50%, a fairly signifgant number. BUT, you also hit on my point about the difference in absolute hardcore realism (which is already impossible since it is a sim, not real life) and the fun factor. I try to balance the 2 in my league, realism and fun, and to that degree I do not force in-car views. I only do that for 1� reasons: 1)When you are in-car and involved in an incident, the hood can seriously impair your forward vision. This happens in real life and the cup guys have to deal with it. They have better spotters, and in my opinion, more vision from their standpoint. I want the sim to be fun enough to keep the guys coming back so by not forcing in-car, when someone crumples the front end, they can pop out to bumber or roof cam and safely get back to the pits or simply off the track. �) Roof cam is the only way some guys CAN get around SP and I like to run both RC's during the course of a league season (in our top bracket). So the way I see my implementation, I don't force in-car so there is a little more fun factor. If we forced in-car and ran the roadies and realistic damage, I'd have about 5 guys in the league...As a compromise, I do run the roadies, realistic damage and just don't force the in-car. It seems to balance out, and for better or worse, everyone has the same options as far as view goes so while roof drivers may have an advantage (I agree), everyone has the opportunity to utilize that view, so it isn't an 'unfair' advantage since everyone can do it. I consider myself a simmer like you, and my conscious got the best of me last night so I turned some 'laps in anger' at SP last evening in-car, and to be honest was only � second off my best time (my PB is 1:20.095, dont laugh...) there using the in-car, so I can do it, it is just a very scary way to have to race with the current view in the sim. It is as nerve racking to do that at SP as it is to drive OUT of the car anywhere else...as long as there are views outside the car in the sim, there will be this argument so that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Maybe if I can get a few more laps at SP in-car I may stay that way there, but I do like having the option nonetheless.

If a league wants to force cockpit view and you (whoever) Does not like it.. GO FIND ANOTHER LEAGUE! Thats how that league wants to be run dont be a premadona....... To me anything but Incar view is an Arcade game you can play at the mall. "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... Everybody should ofcourse be free what to | view they want to use, so far nobody in this thread disagrees with | that, but if a host is forcing the cockpit view it should not be | possible to still use the hood view in the way you describe. |

I think the only way to deal with it is a moveable interior view. The racer can move the seat to his prefs. Why shouldn't we? /Carl "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Joachim Trensz wrote: > > > > Hi Andre, > > > > another issue that will probably change with the first patch to N2002... > > mwa-ha-ha ;-) > > > Needs to be. One single (in-car) view only for online racing, with any > view you want available in offline mode only. That's the only right way > for this to be handled. > > -- > > Fester > > "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no > brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" > from alt.linux.mandrake NG

"Tim Miser" <[email hidden]> wrote in <[email hidden]>: >Anybody done that yet and does it work? Found this on the net: http://www.frontiernet.net/~sletten/upload/start1.jpg

In article <[email hidden]>, Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> writes: >Wouldn't it be funny as hell if DGF actually *beat* all of us?!? We'd >never live that one down. Think we'd have to leave the NG in shame... ><g> I actually think David would do quite well in the race, for some reason... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <rdCe8.62799$[email hidden]>, "Tim" <[email hidden]> writes: >How many times do you use the F3 screen > What's F3 in N2002? Tire info? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <PEue8.106006$[email hidden]>, "DJSpeedy" <[email hidden]> writes: >Tom, in some cases there IS no choice. Those people to which I refer are >those that tend to get disoriented in the cockpit view (me being one of >them) so there really is no option BUT to use the arcade (or other out of >car) view. Disoriented - really? That sucks...I've never heard of that problem before. Does that mean you can't SEE the track clearly enough or that you get 'dizzy' while driving? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <Fave8.4029$Qq1.23377@shaw-ty2>, "Rob Adams" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>"Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Bravo! Couldn't have said it better. Geez... agreeing with both DGF & >> Tom Pabst all in the same month? Gotta be getting old & soft. ;-) > >That's nothing. There's a recent post with DGF asking Eldred to put up a >Nascar race on one of his servers. Skate prices just tripled in Hell ;) >

LOL! Did you buy stock?<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Andre Warringa) writes: >What I did was use Replay Ananlyzer a lot. Simply don't be affraid to >crash the car, go on practicing after each crash without getting >pissed, and use RA to see how well you did on the spots where you did >not crash. After enough practice the crash-free laps will come by >itself and you will improve steadily. >What is your average laptime on the Ring now btw? Really? How do you compare the laps? The 'sectors' are too large, right? I may have to try the Green Hell again...stuck at 8:30.18, or something like that... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <Fave8.4029$Qq1.23377@shaw-ty2>, "Rob Adams" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >"Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> Bravo! Couldn't have said it better. Geez... agreeing with both DGF & > >> Tom Pabst all in the same month? Gotta be getting old & soft. ;-) > > > >That's nothing. There's a recent post with DGF asking Eldred to put up a > >Nascar race on one of his servers. Skate prices just tripled in Hell ;) > > > > LOL! > Did you buy stock?<g>

I'm a Canadian - we get skate stocks at birth. I already know that Hell has a special torment reserved for me anyway - endless full-tank laps of the Ring in a Lotus running a GH2 setup.

EldredP wrote:

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> > In article <rdCe8.62799$[email hidden]>, "Tim" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >How many times do you use the F3 screen > > > > What's F3 in N2002? Tire info?

Fuel. LOL -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

fuel info. screen. -John "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <rdCe8.62799$[email hidden]>, "Tim" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >How many times do you use the F3 screen > > > > What's F3 in N2002? Tire info? > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:32:19 GMT, "Blake" <[email hidden]> wrote: >If a league wants to force cockpit view and you (whoever) Does not like it.. GO FIND ANOTHER LEAGUE! Thats how that league wants to >be run dont be a premadona....... Uhm.. that's what I said. Andre

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>To me anything but Incar view is an Arcade game you can play at the mall. > > >"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Everybody should ofcourse be free what to >| view they want to use, so far nobody in this thread disagrees with >| that, but if a host is forcing the cockpit view it should not be >| possible to still use the hood view in the way you describe. >| >

On 26 Feb 2002 17:42:39 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >Really? How do you compare the laps? The 'sectors' are too large, right? >I may have to try the Green Hell again...stuck at 8:30.18, or something like >that... > >Eldred Actually I use both GPLDump and GPLRA for this. RA is best to compare the driving lines (and 9999 other things) but I like the telemetry of GPLDump better, more clear and a better time difference function. With 174 corners it takes some effort in the beginning to figure out where every corner is in the telemetry. I used a fast replay (7.50) and compared my replay with that one each time I did a Ring session. In the beginning it's easy to spot at which corners you are losing time, and you focus on those corners while racing. Steadily you will see your line coming closer and closer compared with the replay if things go ok :) 8:04 now but it's getting really hard now to improve.. allthough the record is 7:44 I believe so there must be 20 seconds hiding -somewhere- Andre

ymenard wrote: > > >"Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Why would POV always be changing? > > Well look at the little small micro change in your own POV when you drive a > car. Your head must be attached to your torso by a means of a spring.<G> Gerry

"Pierre Robitaille" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:JMPe8.21430 > "Tim Miser" <[email hidden]> wrote in > >Anybody done that yet and does it work? > Found this on the net: > http://www.frontiernet.net/~sletten/upload/start1.jpg Cool! Maybe surround video is the future (probably distant future...). And photorealistic graphics, why not. Ice D

Wouldn't using that be considered cheating ;) "Pierre Robitaille" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:JMPe8.21430$[email hidden]...

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> "Tim Miser" <[email hidden]> wrote in > <[email hidden]>: > > >Anybody done that yet and does it work? > > Found this on the net: > http://www.frontiernet.net/~sletten/upload/start1.jpg

I wasnt responfing to "you" I was just responfing to the thread in general... had to hit the reply button sometime... "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... | On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:32:19 GMT, "Blake" <[email hidden]> wrote: | | >If a league wants to force cockpit view and you (whoever) Does not like it.. GO FIND ANOTHER LEAGUE! Thats how that league wantsto

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| >be run dont be a premadona....... | | Uhm.. that's what I said. | | Andre | | >To me anything but Incar view is an Arcade game you can play at the mall. | > | > | >"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... | > Everybody should ofcourse be free what to | >| view they want to use, so far nobody in this thread disagrees with | >| that, but if a host is forcing the cockpit view it should not be | >| possible to still use the hood view in the way you describe. | >| | > | |

Like? David G Fisher "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> NOOOOOOOOO !!!! No degaheads, short or medium track dammit!!! :) > > -John > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:FYCe8.68013$[email hidden]... > > > > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:15:01 GMT, "Rob Adams" > > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > >That's nothing. There's a recent post with DGF asking Eldred to put

up > a > > > >Nascar race on one of his servers. Skate prices just tripled in Hell;)

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> > > > > > Oh man this post is funny as hell :)) > > > Looking forward to the race, racing with RAS'ers is way cool as the > > > Eldred GPL GP's allready proved. Just be prepared for some > > > mind-tricking games from Asbjorn.. > > > > > > Andre > > > > Heeee Haaaaw. > > > > Multiple personality disorder. > > > > I'll put in my vote for either the Coca Cola track, Talladega, or

Daytona.

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> > Fixed setup. Four wide at Coca Cola could be fun. 8-o > > > > Although, Eldred hasn't even said he'd do it yet. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > >

Rockingham, Dover, Bristol, Charlotte, Atlanta, Texas, Indy, Pocono, etc. Heck, even California or Michigan over a SS :) For that matter, Chicagoland's a blast. -John "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3fSe8.69030$[email hidden]...

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> Like? > > David G Fisher > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > NOOOOOOOOO !!!! No degaheads, short or medium track dammit!!! :) > > > > -John > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:FYCe8.68013$[email hidden]... > > > > > > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:15:01 GMT, "Rob Adams" > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > > > >That's nothing. There's a recent post with DGF asking Eldred to put > up > > a > > > > >Nascar race on one of his servers. Skate prices just tripled in

Hell

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> ;) > > > > > > > > Oh man this post is funny as hell :)) > > > > Looking forward to the race, racing with RAS'ers is way cool as the > > > > Eldred GPL GP's allready proved. Just be prepared for some > > > > mind-tricking games from Asbjorn.. > > > > > > > > Andre > > > > > > Heeee Haaaaw. > > > > > > Multiple personality disorder. > > > > > > I'll put in my vote for either the Coca Cola track, Talladega, or > Daytona. > > > Fixed setup. Four wide at Coca Cola could be fun. 8-o > > > > > > Although, Eldred hasn't even said he'd do it yet. > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > >

Ok, so almost all of them. :-) Just getting into NASCAR sims this week, the thing I've enjoyed most is the drafting/passing element at high speeds. Completely different from the type of passing and maneuvering I have to do in F1 sims (except for Indy). David G Fisher "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Rockingham, Dover, Bristol, Charlotte, Atlanta, Texas, Indy, Pocono, etc. > Heck, even California or Michigan over a SS :) For that matter, > Chicagoland's a blast. > > -John > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3fSe8.69030$[email hidden]... > > Like? > > > > David G Fisher > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > NOOOOOOOOO !!!! No degaheads, short or medium track dammit!!! :) > > > > > > -John > > > > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:FYCe8.68013$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:15:01 GMT, "Rob Adams" > > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >That's nothing. There's a recent post with DGF asking Eldred to

put

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> > up > > > a > > > > > >Nascar race on one of his servers. Skate prices just tripled in > Hell > > ;) > > > > > > > > > > Oh man this post is funny as hell :)) > > > > > Looking forward to the race, racing with RAS'ers is way cool as

the

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> > > > > Eldred GPL GP's allready proved. Just be prepared for some > > > > > mind-tricking games from Asbjorn.. > > > > > > > > > > Andre > > > > > > > > Heeee Haaaaw. > > > > > > > > Multiple personality disorder. > > > > > > > > I'll put in my vote for either the Coca Cola track, Talladega, or > > Daytona. > > > > Fixed setup. Four wide at Coca Cola could be fun. 8-o > > > > > > > > Although, Eldred hasn't even said he'd do it yet. > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I'm not sure why this is so hotly debated. If the host wants the view the same for everyone, then that's what it should be I guess. I just don't see WHY they would force it. I remember reading many of the better hotlappers/drivers in GPL used a joystick and F10 view. In F1 sims, I've always used the cockpit. Seems odd any other way for some reason. Maybe it's because the real life position of the driver is so low and close to the road in an F1 sim. In N2002, I've been using cockpit view half the time, and roof view the other half. The moving cockpit helps, and the sounds are soooo much better inside. The cockpit view is just not very realistic though IMO. I think it should be able to be adjusted a little higher, as Tom P. and some others have said they could see some of the hood. The roof view in N2002 doesn't give you any more peripheral view (biggest reason why it's ok to use it IMO) other than the absence of the flaps which obstruct your view somewhat. You still see the nose of the car coming up behind you at the same moment as you do in the cockpit view. You do get a better vertical view of the track directly in front of you with the roof cam, but my times are the same in either view. In replays, I'm just as steady or unsteady holding the line at a particular track regardless of which view I'm using. I'm either just as good or just as sucky no matter what view I use. :-) David G Fisher "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:32:19 GMT, "Blake" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >If a league wants to force cockpit view and you (whoever) Does not likeit.. GO FIND ANOTHER LEAGUE! Thats how that league wants to

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> >be run dont be a premadona....... > > Uhm.. that's what I said. > > Andre > > >To me anything but Incar view is an Arcade game you can play at the mall. > > > > > >"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

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> > Everybody should ofcourse be free what to > >| view they want to use, so far nobody in this thread disagrees with > >| that, but if a host is forcing the cockpit view it should not be > >| possible to still use the hood view in the way you describe. > >| > > >

David G Fisher wrote: > > I'm not sure why this is so hotly debated. If the host wants the view the > same for everyone, then that's what it should be I guess. I just don't see > WHY they would force it. I remember reading many of the better > hotlappers/drivers in GPL used a joystick and F10 view. They should have had their own hotlap table <G>. > In F1 sims, I've > always used the cockpit. Seems odd any other way for some reason. Maybe it's > because the real life position of the driver is so low and close to the road > in an F1 sim. Agreed. > In N2002, I've been using cockpit view half the time, and roof view the > other half. The moving cockpit helps, and the sounds are soooo much better > inside. The cockpit view is just not very realistic though IMO. I think it > should be able to be adjusted a little higher, as Tom P. and some others > have said they could see some of the hood. Agreed...again :) Gerry

Things really are getting crazy around here. :-o David G Fisher "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > David G Fisher wrote: > > > > I'm not sure why this is so hotly debated. If the host wants the viewthe > > same for everyone, then that's what it should be I guess. I just don'tsee

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> > WHY they would force it. I remember reading many of the better > > hotlappers/drivers in GPL used a joystick and F10 view. > > They should have had their own hotlap table <G>. > > > In F1 sims, I've > > always used the cockpit. Seems odd any other way for some reason. Maybe

it's > > because the real life position of the driver is so low and close to theroad > > in an F1 sim. > > Agreed. > > > In N2002, I've been using cockpit view half the time, and roof view the > > other half. The moving cockpit helps, and the sounds are soooo muchbetter > > inside. The cockpit view is just not very realistic though IMO. I thinkit

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> > should be able to be adjusted a little higher, as Tom P. and some others > > have said they could see some of the hood. > > Agreed...again :) > > > > Gerry

>"Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote > Your head must be attached to your torso by a means of a spring.<G> LOL! I mean, all the dampening effect our muscles do on our own bodies, I would hope a real headset would model this instead of just guessing your position and only apply pivot left/right effects. It would be disorienting, I've felt it in other various VR experiences. I need complete immersion, axis pivot/rotation/translation and high frequency over small little changes. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Exactly; any other :) You've got the degahead tracks down; time for lesson two! :) Expand your horizons! -John "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3BSe8.69043$[email hidden]... > Ok, so almost all of them. :-) > > Just getting into NASCAR sims this week, the thing I've enjoyed most isthe > drafting/passing element at high speeds. Completely different from thetype

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> of passing and maneuvering I have to do in F1 sims (except for Indy). > > David G Fisher > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Rockingham, Dover, Bristol, Charlotte, Atlanta, Texas, Indy, Pocono,

etc.

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> > Heck, even California or Michigan over a SS :) For that matter, > > Chicagoland's a blast. > > > > -John > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:3fSe8.69030$[email hidden]... > > > Like? > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > NOOOOOOOOO !!!! No degaheads, short or medium track dammit!!! :) > > > > > > > > -John > > > > > > > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:FYCe8.68013$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:15:01 GMT, "Rob Adams" > > > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >That's nothing. There's a recent post with DGF asking Eldred to > put > > > up > > > > a > > > > > > >Nascar race on one of his servers. Skate prices just tripled in > > Hell > > > ;) > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh man this post is funny as hell :)) > > > > > > Looking forward to the race, racing with RAS'ers is way cool as > the > > > > > > Eldred GPL GP's allready proved. Just be prepared for some > > > > > > mind-tricking games from Asbjorn.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Andre > > > > > > > > > > Heeee Haaaaw. > > > > > > > > > > Multiple personality disorder. > > > > > > > > > > I'll put in my vote for either the Coca Cola track, Talladega, or > > > Daytona. > > > > > Fixed setup. Four wide at Coca Cola could be fun. 8-o > > > > > > > > > > Although, Eldred hasn't even said he'd do it yet. > > > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[email hidden] (Andre Warringa) writes:

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> On 26 Feb 2002 06:34:59 +0100, [email hidden] (Asbj��rn > Bj��rnstad) wrote: > > >Unfortunally, I don't have N4 or N2002 or Nascar heat or any other > >Nascar game. I had N4 (HK version, not the best for online racing ;-) > >for a while, but I just can't stand driving those boats around. I have > > Hong Kong version is a cool word for a copy eh :)

Yup, it's easier to go into a store and buy a copy than to find the same game as an original around here. I know a couple of shops that sell originals, but the selection isn't always that good. The good thing about it is that prices on games are low (At least compared to Norway) since pirated games are so easy to get.

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> Maybe you allready read this in another post from me, but I had the > same feeling about N4 (stupid boats) while I love N2002. The cars are > actually damn fun to drive on the limit, and I'm slowly but steady > learning the strategies involved in Nascar racing now, and it's simply > damn fun. It took me time to realize, but: simply don't compare it to > GPL, it's a total different type of sport. > Try to get a HK version first to see if you like it, or try the demo, > then buy it so you can make me fall asleep again and win :)

Maybe I will, but there is also the problem of finding time nowadays. > What I did was use Replay Ananlyzer a lot. Simply don't be affraid to > crash the car, go on practicing after each crash without getting > pissed, and use RA to see how well you did on the spots where you did > not crash. After enough practice the crash-free laps will come by > itself and you will improve steadily. > What is your average laptime on the Ring now btw? About 8:40. My PB is a 8:22. If I compare my lap with a fast one, I usually just see a steadily sloping line, so I'm just a bit slower the whole way. -- -asbjxrn

ymenard wrote:

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> > >"Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Your head must be attached to your torso by a means of a spring.<G> > > LOL! > > I mean, all the dampening effect our muscles do on our own bodies, I would > hope a real headset would model this instead of just guessing your position > and only apply pivot left/right effects. It would be disorienting, I've > felt it in other various VR experiences. I need complete immersion, axis > pivot/rotation/translation and high frequency over small little changes.

I was thinking more of just panning left/right. Cheers Gerry

What's different? Since Nascar cars mimic the actual shells of a passenger car it would seem to me to be nearly identical. -Tim "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Tim Miser wrote: > > > > I'll go out on a limb and make a serious argument for the roof cam view. > > The problem with the cockpit view is that you only have tunnel vision.In > > other words, you can only see out the front windsheild and rearviewmirror

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> > and that my friend, is not realistic. Imagine driving your car on the > > freeway with aluminum foil on the side windows.... > > > Except your vision in a passenger car is much different than in a NASCAR > car. You cannot realistically compare the two. > > -- > > Fester > > "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no > brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" > from alt.linux.mandrake NG

>"Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote > Ah right way, so cockpit view is the right way is it? No, actually Papyrus will be releasing their new "Forced blimp cam" option in the upcoming NR2002 patch ;-) <snickers> eh it could quite fun! -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

OBVIOUSLY You've never seen the inside of a race car or ever wore a helmet or had headpads that keep you from turning your head very far and blocking what limited vision you have. Or been strapped down with a 5 point harnes that holds you body down so the only movement you get is JUST your neck. "Tim Miser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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| What's different? Since Nascar cars mimic the actual shells of a passenger | car it would seem to me to be nearly identical. | | -Tim | | "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | news:[email hidden]... | > Tim Miser wrote: | > > | > > I'll go out on a limb and make a serious argument for the roof cam view. | > > The problem with the cockpit view is that you only have tunnel vision. | In | > > other words, you can only see out the front windsheild and rearview | mirror | > > and that my friend, is not realistic. Imagine driving your car on the | > > freeway with aluminum foil on the side windows.... | > | > | > Except your vision in a passenger car is much different than in a NASCAR | > car. You cannot realistically compare the two. | > | > -- | > | > Fester | > | > "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no | > brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" | > from alt.linux.mandrake NG | | |

Passenger cars don't have the safety equipment in the cockpit that stock cars do.............you really need to watch/attend some races :) -John "Tim Miser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > What's different? Since Nascar cars mimic the actual shells of apassenger

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> car it would seem to me to be nearly identical. > > -Tim > > "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Tim Miser wrote: > > > > > > I'll go out on a limb and make a serious argument for the roof cam

view.

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> > > The problem with the cockpit view is that you only have tunnel vision. > In > > > other words, you can only see out the front windsheild and rearview > mirror > > > and that my friend, is not realistic. Imagine driving your car on the > > > freeway with aluminum foil on the side windows.... > > > > > > Except your vision in a passenger car is much different than in a NASCAR > > car. You cannot realistically compare the two. > > > > -- > > > > Fester > > > > "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no > > brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" > > from alt.linux.mandrake NG > >

Sure I have. The Hans and Hutchens devices do limit your neck movement but you can still see out your side window openings. Of course when I drive, I only move my neck. What do you do? -Tim "Blake" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:SCaf8.232372$[email hidden]... > OBVIOUSLY You've never seen the inside of a race car or ever wore a helmetor had headpads that keep you from turning your head very > far and blocking what limited vision you have. Or been strapped down witha 5 point harnes that holds you body down so the only > movement you get is JUST your neck. > > > "Tim Miser" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]... > | What's different? Since Nascar cars mimic the actual shells of apassenger

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> | car it would seem to me to be nearly identical. > | > | -Tim > | > | "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > | news:[email hidden]... > | > Tim Miser wrote: > | > > > | > > I'll go out on a limb and make a serious argument for the roof cam

view. > | > > The problem with the cockpit view is that you only have tunnelvision. > | In > | > > other words, you can only see out the front windsheild and rearview > | mirror > | > > and that my friend, is not realistic. Imagine driving your car onthe > | > > freeway with aluminum foil on the side windows.... > | > > | > > | > Except your vision in a passenger car is much different than in aNASCAR

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> | > car. You cannot realistically compare the two. > | > > | > -- > | > > | > Fester > | > > | > "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no > | > brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" > | > from alt.linux.mandrake NG > | > | > | > >

No, they can't at all in some cases, and not very easily/much in others. Depends on the seat, etc. construction. Also, window heights in a stock car are much lower than a passenger car. -John "Tim Miser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Sure I have. The Hans and Hutchens devices do limit your neck movementbut > you can still see out your side window openings. Of course when I drive,I

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> only move my neck. What do you do? > > -Tim > > "Blake" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:SCaf8.232372$[email hidden]... > > OBVIOUSLY You've never seen the inside of a race car or ever wore a

helmet > or had headpads that keep you from turning your head very > > far and blocking what limited vision you have. Or been strapped downwith

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> a 5 point harnes that holds you body down so the only > > movement you get is JUST your neck. > > > > > > "Tim Miser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > | What's different? Since Nascar cars mimic the actual shells of a > passenger > > | car it would seem to me to be nearly identical. > > | > > | -Tim > > | > > | "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > | news:[email hidden]... > > | > Tim Miser wrote: > > | > > > > | > > I'll go out on a limb and make a serious argument for the roof cam > view. > > | > > The problem with the cockpit view is that you only have tunnel > vision. > > | In > > | > > other words, you can only see out the front windsheild and

rearview

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> > | mirror > > | > > and that my friend, is not realistic. Imagine driving your car on > the > > | > > freeway with aluminum foil on the side windows.... > > | > > > | > > > | > Except your vision in a passenger car is much different than in a > NASCAR > > | > car. You cannot realistically compare the two. > > | > > > | > -- > > | > > > | > Fester > > | > > > | > "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no > > | > brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" > > | > from alt.linux.mandrake NG > > | > > | > > | > > > > > >

really, when you want to see a car in your blind spot you can turn your head and your Shoulders dont move huh?? You're amazing then.... try it and pay attention to how your body moves, try looking out the rear seat right side window of your car without moving your shoulders with a helmet on and a head support thats at eye level.....Sure you can turn your head a little each way to see whats out your side windows but you do not get a 90* (to your body) look and thats a flaw in the game, you dont get that little bit of a head turn without that Jerk view they give you which is completely unrealistic..... You're arguing wiht someone who has spent many hours in a Winston Cup car and in other types of stock cars as well. Why do you think they have all started ysing that little spot mirror on the A post roll bar????? "Tim Miser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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| Sure I have. The Hans and Hutchens devices do limit your neck movement but | you can still see out your side window openings. Of course when I drive, I | only move my neck. What do you do? | | -Tim | | "Blake" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | news:SCaf8.232372$[email hidden]... | > OBVIOUSLY You've never seen the inside of a race car or ever wore a helmet | or had headpads that keep you from turning your head very | > far and blocking what limited vision you have. Or been strapped down with | a 5 point harnes that holds you body down so the only | > movement you get is JUST your neck. | > | > | > "Tim Miser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | news:[email hidden]... | > | What's different? Since Nascar cars mimic the actual shells of a | passenger | > | car it would seem to me to be nearly identical. | > | | > | -Tim | > | | > | "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | > | news:[email hidden]... | > | > Tim Miser wrote: | > | > > | > | > > I'll go out on a limb and make a serious argument for the roof cam | view. | > | > > The problem with the cockpit view is that you only have tunnel | vision. | > | In | > | > > other words, you can only see out the front windsheild and rearview | > | mirror | > | > > and that my friend, is not realistic. Imagine driving your car on | the | > | > > freeway with aluminum foil on the side windows.... | > | > | > | > | > | > Except your vision in a passenger car is much different than in a | NASCAR | > | > car. You cannot realistically compare the two. | > | > | > | > -- | > | > | > | > Fester | > | > | > | > "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no | > | > brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" | > | > from alt.linux.mandrake NG | > | | > | | > | | > | > | | |

In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>fuel info. screen. > >-John > > >"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> In article <rdCe8.62799$[email hidden]>, "Tim" >> <[email hidden]> writes: >> >> >How many times do you use the F3 screen >> > >> >> What's F3 in N2002? Tire info?

Damn, that's right. It's been so long since I ran a long enough race in N4 to WORRY about fuel, I forgot... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Actually I use both GPLDump and GPLRA for this. RA is best to compare >the driving lines (and 9999 other things) but I like the telemetry of >GPLDump better, more clear and a better time difference function. With >174 corners it takes some effort in the beginning to figure out where >every corner is in the telemetry. >I used a fast replay (7.50) and compared my replay with that one each >time I did a Ring session.

For some reason, I've never gotten any useful info from GPLDump. I guess I'm just not looking for the right things... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Agreed. > >> In N2002, I've been using cockpit view half the time, and roof view the >> other half. The moving cockpit helps, and the sounds are soooo much better >> inside. The cockpit view is just not very realistic though IMO. I think it >> should be able to be adjusted a little higher, as Tom P. and some others >> have said they could see some of the hood. > >Agreed...again :)

What? Gerry, you're *agreeing* with David?!? Somebody check those ice skate sales figures again...<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On 26 Feb 2002 17:42:39 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, >[email hidden] (Andre Warringa) writes: > >>What I did was use Replay Ananlyzer a lot. Simply don't be affraid to >>crash the car, go on practicing after each crash without getting >>pissed, and use RA to see how well you did on the spots where you did >>not crash. After enough practice the crash-free laps will come by >>itself and you will improve steadily. >>What is your average laptime on the Ring now btw? > >Really? How do you compare the laps? The 'sectors' are too large, right? >I may have to try the Green Hell again...stuck at 8:30.18, or something like >that... > >Eldred >--

Ah, you obviously havn't learned to use the graphing functions. They're the most important part of RA. KFG

EldredP wrote: > >Agreed...again :) > > What? Gerry, you're *agreeing* with David?!? Somebody check those ice skate > sales figures again...<g> When he says something salient I don't have much choice ;) Gerry

On 28 Feb 2002 02:38:44 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >For some reason, I've never gotten any useful info from GPLDump. I guess I'm >just not looking for the right things... > >Eldred But it's so simple.. load up a fast replay and a replay from you and you can clearly see at which corners you are losing the most time. Check that time difference option and you will see a third line showing you exactly how much time you lose where. One of the basic things I learned from GPLDump is that I broke just as late as the faster guys, but I didn;t knew how to keep the same speed in the corners. Braked a little bit sooner, keeping the speed in the corners, and that saves a lot of time. Andre

Gerry Aitken wrote:

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> > EldredP wrote: > > > >Agreed...again :) > > > > What? Gerry, you're *agreeing* with David?!? Somebody check those ice skate > > sales figures again...<g> > > When he says something salient I don't have much choice ;)

It hurts though, doesn't it :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "Animation isn't the illusion of life; it is life" --Chuck Jones (1912-2002)--

Goy Larsen wrote:

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> > Gerry Aitken wrote: > > > > EldredP wrote: > > > > > >Agreed...again :) > > > > > > What? Gerry, you're *agreeing* with David?!? Somebody check those ice skate > > > sales figures again...<g> > > > > When he says something salient I don't have much choice ;) > > It hurts though, doesn't it :-)

Sure does. But I still have a collection of his 'wonderful' quotes to disagree with. Here's a good one:- "NASCAR sims are easy and very boring. Turning left is hardly a great skill." -- David G Fisher Cheers Gerry

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Kevin F. Gavitt) writes: >Ah, you obviously havn't learned to use the graphing functions. >They're the most important part of RA. > No, I've tried the graph. All I see is that I'm slower EVERYWHERE...<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

ymenard wrote:

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> > >"Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Ah right way, so cockpit view is the right way is it? > > No, actually Papyrus will be releasing their new "Forced blimp cam" option > in the upcoming NR2002 patch ;-) > > <snickers> eh it could quite fun!

Thought that view was reserved for RC Racing 2k2. ;-) -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

Tim Miser wrote: > > What's different? Since Nascar cars mimic the actual shells of a passenger > car it would seem to me to be nearly identical. *choke* Pardon ME? Research is your friend... -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

Uh, passenger cars and NASCAR-sanctioned Winston Cup cars are not identical in the least. The angle of the windows is lower, the roof is lower, the shape of the hood and sides is different, the entire cockpit is smaller and more cramped, etc. The only thing that makes a Chevy Monte Carlo Winston Cup car a Chevy Monte Carlo are the stickers they slap on it that look like head/taillights in addition to a very basic shape they must follow (which resembles the real car but is much more aerodynamic). Other than that they are tiny, purebred racecars built from the ground up by the teams strictly for racing with no real manufacturer involvement aside from some wind tunnel testing and NASCAR lobbying. Seriously, look at a real Monte Carlo at a local Chevy dealership. They're huge compared to a Winston Cup car. Same with the Taurus. It's amazing that the Monte Carlos and Tauruses are so much larger than the Intrepids and Grand Prix that you see on the street but yet on the track they all have the same dimensions... Jason "Tim Miser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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> What's different? Since Nascar cars mimic the actual shells of a passenger > car it would seem to me to be nearly identical. > > -Tim > > "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Tim Miser wrote: > > > > > > I'll go out on a limb and make a serious argument for the roof cam view. > > > The problem with the cockpit view is that you only have tunnel vision. > In > > > other words, you can only see out the front windsheild and rearview > mirror > > > and that my friend, is not realistic. Imagine driving your car on the > > > freeway with aluminum foil on the side windows.... > > > > > > Except your vision in a passenger car is much different than in a NASCAR > > car. You cannot realistically compare the two. > > > > -- > > > > Fester > > > > "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no > > brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" > > from alt.linux.mandrake NG

First off, I don't turn my head to look behind me while I drive. I use side mirrors and the rearview mirror only. It's not a good habit in my opinion to turn you head around to look back over your shoulder and lose your vision out the front while your driving. Second, it seems you have changed my argument on your own to suit your point. I never said you could look 90 degree look out the side. My point was that Nascar drivers can see out the side window while driving. The fact that they put that spot mirror on the A post roll bar (which happens to be located in the side window opening) PROVES IT! I think you need to re-read my posts because it seems that you've completely missed my point about the unrealistic "tunnel vision" in the N4/02k cockpit view. -Tim "Blake" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_5bf8.207544$[email hidden]... > really, when you want to see a car in your blind spot you can turn yourhead and your Shoulders dont move huh?? You're amazing > then.... try it and pay attention to how your body moves, try looking outthe rear seat right side window of your car without moving > your shoulders with a helmet on and a head support thats at eyelevel.....Sure you can turn your head a little each way to see whats > out your side windows but you do not get a 90* (to your body) look andthats a flaw in the game, you dont get that little bit of a > head turn without that Jerk view they give you which is completelyunrealistic..... > You're arguing wiht someone who has spent many hours in a Winston Cup carand in other types of stock cars as well. > Why do you think they have all started ysing that little spot mirror onthe A post roll bar????? > > > > "Tim Miser" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]... > | Sure I have. The Hans and Hutchens devices do limit your neck movementbut > | you can still see out your side window openings. Of course when Idrive, I

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> | only move my neck. What do you do? > | > | -Tim > | > | "Blake" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > | news:SCaf8.232372$[email hidden]... > | > OBVIOUSLY You've never seen the inside of a race car or ever wore a

helmet > | or had headpads that keep you from turning your head very > | > far and blocking what limited vision you have. Or been strapped downwith

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> | a 5 point harnes that holds you body down so the only > | > movement you get is JUST your neck. > | > > | > > | > "Tim Miser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > | news:[email hidden]... > | > | What's different? Since Nascar cars mimic the actual shells of a > | passenger > | > | car it would seem to me to be nearly identical. > | > | > | > | -Tim > | > | > | > | "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > | > | news:[email hidden]... > | > | > Tim Miser wrote: > | > | > > > | > | > > I'll go out on a limb and make a serious argument for the roof

cam > | view. > | > | > > The problem with the cockpit view is that you only have tunnel > | vision. > | > | In > | > | > > other words, you can only see out the front windsheild andrearview > | > | mirror > | > | > > and that my friend, is not realistic. Imagine driving your caron

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> | the > | > | > > freeway with aluminum foil on the side windows.... > | > | > > | > | > > | > | > Except your vision in a passenger car is much different than in a > | NASCAR > | > | > car. You cannot realistically compare the two. > | > | > > | > | > -- > | > | > > | > | > Fester > | > | > > | > | > "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with

no > | > | > brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" > | > | > from alt.linux.mandrakeNG

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> | > | > | > | > | > | > | > > | > > | > | > | > >

All of you guys are taking my comment out of context. I am truely aware of the differences between a nascar and a passenger car. Go re-read the point I was making about the tunnel vision of the cockpit view. -Tim "jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Uh, passenger cars and NASCAR-sanctioned Winston Cup cars are not > identical in the least. The angle of the windows is lower, the roof > is lower, the shape of the hood and sides is different, the entire > cockpit is smaller and more cramped, etc. The only thing that makes a > Chevy Monte Carlo Winston Cup car a Chevy Monte Carlo are the stickers > they slap on it that look like head/taillights in addition to a very > basic shape they must follow (which resembles the real car but is much > more aerodynamic). Other than that they are tiny, purebred racecars > built from the ground up by the teams strictly for racing with no real > manufacturer involvement aside from some wind tunnel testing and > NASCAR lobbying. > > Seriously, look at a real Monte Carlo at a local Chevy dealership. > They're huge compared to a Winston Cup car. Same with the Taurus. > It's amazing that the Monte Carlos and Tauruses are so much larger > than the Intrepids and Grand Prix that you see on the street but yet > on the track they all have the same dimensions... > > Jason > > > "Tim Miser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>... > > What's different? Since Nascar cars mimic the actual shells of apassenger

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> > car it would seem to me to be nearly identical. > > > > -Tim > > > > "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Tim Miser wrote: > > > > > > > > I'll go out on a limb and make a serious argument for the roof cam

view. > > > > The problem with the cockpit view is that you only have tunnelvision. > > In > > > > other words, you can only see out the front windsheild and rearview > > mirror > > > > and that my friend, is not realistic. Imagine driving your car onthe > > > > freeway with aluminum foil on the side windows.... > > > > > > > > > Except your vision in a passenger car is much different than in aNASCAR

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> > > car. You cannot realistically compare the two. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Fester > > > > > > "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no > > > brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" > > > from alt.linux.mandrake NG

Tim Miser wrote: > > All of you guys are taking my comment out of context. I am truely aware of > the differences between a nascar and a passenger car. Go re-read the point > I was making about the tunnel vision of the cockpit view. You say roof cam gives better peripheral vision. But you're wrong because: The field of view is narrower in the roof cam view! Don't believe me? In cockpit view, park the car next the end of the armco at the end of pit road. Make sure the end of the armco is only just visible behind the window netting at the far left of the screen. Then change to roof cam, and you'll notice the end of the armco will disappear out of the field of view. Change back to cockpit and it reappears! So your wrong, the roof cam gives a narrower FOV and reduces your peripheral vision! NEXT!

Hmmm... By peripheral vision I mean being able to see the cars next to me, not the wideness of the view. That's a whole different discussion. The roofcam allows you to see cars that on either side of your car, the cockpit view does not. In real life, drivers can see those cars using their peripheral vision. It's really not too difficult to understand if you try! -Tim "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Tim Miser wrote: > > > > All of you guys are taking my comment out of context. I am truely awareof > > the differences between a nascar and a passenger car. Go re-read thepoint

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> > I was making about the tunnel vision of the cockpit view. > > You say roof cam gives better peripheral vision. > > But you're wrong because: > > The field of view is narrower in the roof cam view! Don't believe me? In > cockpit view, park the car next the end of the armco at the end of pit > road. Make sure the end of the armco is only just visible behind the > window netting at the far left of the screen. Then change to roof cam, > and you'll notice the end of the armco will disappear out of the field > of view. Change back to cockpit and it reappears! > > So your wrong, the roof cam gives a narrower FOV and reduces your > peripheral vision! > > NEXT!

Tim Miser wrote: > > Hmmm... By peripheral vision I mean being able to see the cars next to me, > not the wideness of the view. That's a whole different discussion. The > roofcam allows you to see cars that on either side of your car, the cockpit > view does not. In real life, drivers can see those cars using their > peripheral vision. It's really not too difficult to understand if you try! Ok, I understand now, you're brain dead! Park the car where I said and do the comparison I told you to do. In roof cam the armco is out of the field of view and in cockpit it is in the FOV. If the armco was the nose of a car, in roof cam you WOULD NOT see it! In cockpit view you CAN see it! So with a car creeping up the left side, who would see it first? Me in the cockpit view or you in the roof cam view? Of course I would see it first because i have a wider FOV with better peripheral vision. It's really not too difficult to understand if you try!

"Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Tim Miser wrote: > > > > Hmmm... By peripheral vision I mean being able to see the cars next tome, > > not the wideness of the view. That's a whole different discussion. The > > roofcam allows you to see cars that on either side of your car, thecockpit > > view does not. In real life, drivers can see those cars using their > > peripheral vision. It's really not too difficult to understand if youtry! > > Ok, I understand now, you're brain dead! This conversation is deteriorating thanks to you. Stop acting like a child and maybe we could continue this discussion sometime. -Tim

I feel the same about the cockpit view. I know you have the ability to look left and right, but it is not natural. So in the in-car view in the sim, you "see" much less than you would in a real car. That being said. I still think the in-car view should be used in online oval racing. It demands more of each driver, to hold their line to avoid accidents, like the sprint car guys who drive without mirrors. Road racing with the NASCAR sims on the otherhand, I feel the roof view makes for better racing. Sears Point is a great example, with the elevation changes and sharp turns, the in-car view is really too limiting. Just my thoughts. -- btgoss btgoss(my_shorts)@yahoo.com Remove my shorts to reply What you are is God's gift to you. What you make of it is your gift to God. "Tim Miser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:nkwh8.23443$e07.4104@sccrnsc01... > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > Tim Miser wrote: > > > > > > Hmmm... By peripheral vision I mean being able to see the cars next to > me, > > > not the wideness of the view. That's a whole different discussion. The > > > roofcam allows you to see cars that on either side of your car, the > cockpit > > > view does not. In real life, drivers can see those cars using their > > > peripheral vision. It's really not too difficult to understand if you > try! > > > > Ok, I understand now, you're brain dead! > > This conversation is deteriorating thanks to you. Stop acting like a child > and maybe we could continue this discussion sometime. > > -Tim > > >

Tim Miser wrote in a vain attempt to dodge the issue: > This conversation is deteriorating thanks to you. Stop acting like a child > and maybe we could continue this discussion sometime. Counter my points then! Park the car where I said and do the comparison I told you to do. In roof cam the armco is out of the field of view and in cockpit it is in the FOV. If the armco was the nose of a car, in roof cam you WOULD NOT see it! In cockpit view you CAN see it! So with a car creeping up the left side, who would see it first? Me in the cockpit view or you in the roof cam view? Of course I would see it first because i have a wider FOV with better peripheral vision. It's really not too difficult to understand if you try!

Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> > > Tim Miser wrote in a vain attempt to dodge the issue: > >> This conversation is deteriorating thanks to you. Stop acting like >> a child and maybe we could continue this discussion sometime. > > Counter my points then! > > Park the car where I said and > do the comparison I told you to do. In roof cam the armco is out of > the field of view and in cockpit it is in the FOV. If the armco was > the nose of a car, in roof cam you WOULD NOT see it! In cockpit view > you CAN see it! > > So with a car creeping up the left side, who would see it first? Me in > the cockpit view or you in the roof cam view? Of course I would see it > first because i have a wider FOV with better peripheral vision. > > It's really not too difficult to understand if you try! >

The pit wall at silverstone becomes "invisible" sooner in cockpit view than roof view, but I guess most winston cup cars aren't only 2.5' high ;o) For me, with a 14" monitor I need as much square inches of visible track as possible, so I run roof cam. When I get a 19" monitor I'll get back inside where I belong. This isn't about POV, it's about screen "real estate" given to the track for me. cheers John

JM wrote:

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> > Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:[email hidden]: > > > > > > > Tim Miser wrote in a vain attempt to dodge the issue: > > > >> This conversation is deteriorating thanks to you. Stop acting like > >> a child and maybe we could continue this discussion sometime. > > > > Counter my points then! > > > > Park the car where I said and > > do the comparison I told you to do. In roof cam the armco is out of > > the field of view and in cockpit it is in the FOV. If the armco was > > the nose of a car, in roof cam you WOULD NOT see it! In cockpit view > > you CAN see it! > > > > So with a car creeping up the left side, who would see it first? Me in > > the cockpit view or you in the roof cam view? Of course I would see it > > first because i have a wider FOV with better peripheral vision. > > > > It's really not too difficult to understand if you try! > > > > The pit wall at silverstone becomes "invisible" sooner in cockpit view than > roof view, but I guess most winston cup cars aren't only 2.5' high ;o)

Wrong sim. We're talking Nascar2002 here, not Nascar4. Gerry

JM wrote: > The pit wall at silverstone becomes "invisible" sooner in cockpit view than > roof view, No it doesn't. > but I guess most winston cup cars aren't only 2.5' high ;o) I'm not with you. > For me, with a 14" monitor I need as much square inches of visible track as > possible, so I run roof cam. When I get a 19" monitor I'll get back inside > where I belong. This isn't about POV, it's about screen "real estate" > given to the track for me. In roof cam you only see more sky, more track immediately in front of the hood and over hills at Sears, not very useful because no car can hide in those spaces in cockpit view. The view is also zoomed in a little, so FOV is reduced along with peripheral vision, of course. So with a car creeping up the left side, who would see it first? Me in the cockpit view or you in the roof cam view? Of course I would see it first because i have a wider FOV with better peripheral vision. I see more of what's going on around me on the track. You roof cam boys, however, will be better able to defend against dive bombers with all that ski being drawn for you! All the reasons you guys state for using the roof cam, 'see more track', 'able to see the cars next to me', are just wrong! It's only good for seeing over hills at Sears. Use what you like, I don't give a stuff, but don't say you can see cars sooner as they move up the sides, when you bloody well can't. Gerry