Why not keep it going<G> Cockpit views/stock car sims

Fwiw, here's a point needs to be made......at least I think so<G> Keep seeing some post, "The cockpit view is claustrophobic" "Not like my car", etc. Guys, you're not driving your car. You're driving a simulated stock car. Also, the view in an actual stock car IS very claustrophic. It's not an open wheel cockpit<G> The drivers are strapped in a literal shell, with blinders in the form of cushions/nets on both sides of their head. Some even cut holes in this, for a very small window to at least see something to the side. And that doesn't include all the tubing, bracing, etc. that's in a real stock car, that's not in the sim cockpit. There's a reason they have spotters<G> That, and your F2 key and mirror gives a very accurate feel for an actual stock car driver's vision IMO. Not perfect, but not nearly as unrealistic as some believe. Whether some allowances could be made for pc limitations could be a whole 'nother thread, but the cockpit view in N2002 isn't to bad, especially in relation to side view WITHOUT the look left/right keys. If anything's unrealistic, it's those views. On a side note, since it came up. Yep, there's ways to alter your roof cam shots. N4 had one that put the driver farther forward into the cockpit. Still in the pit, just as if you scooted the seat up towards the dash a bit. Personally, I don't consider it a cheat. It's available for download on the net(though I can't remember where), and I'm sure N2002 will have the same thing. Probably already does. I've never used it except to look at, didn't want to take the time to get used to it, but thought it was quite good actually. A cheat is someone using something that others don't have easy access to IMO. What about the fov utility for GPL? Same thing IMO. Anyone can use it if they want. Whether this view gives an advantage, I don't think so. And with all the hacks done to GPL, well, you get the point<G> There's a driver in my league who uses the roof view(or at least a long time ago, he said he did). He hasn't caused any more problems than anyone else, nor is he markedly better than anyone else. Sometimes he wins, sometimes he doesn't do squat<G>. Only thing I want in my league is green racing, which we have. Anyway, more fuel for the fire<G> -John

Exactly, thanks. Great post. -John "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5g9fn$75ka4$[email hidden]... > Hi John, > > when we started racing online in GPL, for the first time in larger groupsas > opposed to one-on-one sessions in ICR2 + Nascar2, that was quite an > experience for all of us. > > A pet peeve of many drivers at that time was the limited peripheral vision > and the lack of awareness as to the precise whereabouts of the carsdirectly

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> around your's. However, nobody seemed to want to use kite, rollbar or hood > views in my league, so we had to put up with what we had. > > When I compare then and now, I become aware that most of the guys have > gotten used to the situation very well. Accidents caused by someone really > not _knowing_ where the other cars are rarely happen. > > And speaking for myself, I always know exactly whether there's another car > in the danger zone or not. > > Do I know where it is precisely? No, I don't, but I do what a driver in

the > real world would do as well, and that is, I use all the cues I have and, > more important, if I don't know whether the track location I want to drive > to is vacant, then I treat it as if it were occupied - I use it. > > It's that easy. It's been a painful way to learn to accept this fact, butI > think it's what a real racedriver learns as well - only that for him it isa

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> more natural learning process because mistakes get punished much harder - > accidents _really_ hurt in a real car. But if we in the sim just focus on > arriving at the s/f line without causing accidents and do what good reason > tells us to do rather than blindly hurrying through the race and always > seeking our advantage without thinking twice whether it's wise to do so > right now or not, that's all you need to do. Situational awareness alone > isn't the clue, it's self restraint, self restraint and self restraint.

And

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> then situational awareness ;-) > > I personally perceive this as an additional level of simulation, as an > additional tactical challenge in online racing, and I quite happily accept > that challenge. > > For me, the constraints of cockpit view are not only fairly realistic,

they > also add an interesting aspect to the simulation. > > But, I am also aware that I savour these aspects because I want asimulation > as real as possible, and am willing to work my way towards the goal. Thisis

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> not everyone's loaf of bread. > > No pun intended to those who don't use cockpit view - just my 2c worth... > > Achim > >

Good post, John. Its a good "summary" of the issues and spot on for the issue of how much "view" a driver has from a real WC car. However, its a tad too long....watch out, you'll be accused of being like "Pabst" if you don't knock it off.....along with everything you write being "off-topic" according to the "on-topic/off-topic" police, headed up by Mr. Solheim. ....lol... TP "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Fwiw, here's a point needs to be made......at least I think so<G> Keep > seeing some post, "The cockpit view is claustrophobic" "Not like my car", > etc. > > Guys, you're not driving your car. You're driving a simulated stockcar. > Also, the view in an actual stock car IS very claustrophic. It's not an > open wheel cockpit<G> > The drivers are strapped in a literal shell, with blinders in the formof > cushions/nets on both sides of their head. Some even cut holes in this,for > a very small window to at least see something to the side. And thatdoesn't > include all the tubing, bracing, etc. that's in a real stock car, that'snot > in the sim cockpit. > > There's a reason they have spotters<G> That, and your F2 key and mirror > gives a very accurate feel for an actual stock car driver's vision IMO.Not > perfect, but not nearly as unrealistic as some believe. > > Whether some allowances could be made for pc limitations could be awhole > 'nother thread, but the cockpit view in N2002 isn't to bad, especially in > relation to side view WITHOUT the look left/right keys. If anything's > unrealistic, it's those views. > > On a side note, since it came up. Yep, there's ways to alter your roof > cam shots. N4 had one that put the driver farther forward into thecockpit. > Still in the pit, just as if you scooted the seat up towards the dash abit.

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> Personally, I don't consider it a cheat. It's available for download on > the net(though I can't remember where), and I'm sure N2002 will have the > same thing. Probably already does. I've never used it except to look at, > didn't want to take the time to get used to it, but thought it was quite > good actually. A cheat is someone using something that others don't have > easy access to IMO. What about the fov utility for GPL? Same thing IMO. > Anyone can use it if they want. > Whether this view gives an advantage, I don't think so. And with all

the > hacks done to GPL, well, you get the point<G> There's a driver in my > league who uses the roof view(or at least a long time ago, he said hedid).

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> He hasn't caused any more problems than anyone else, nor is he markedly > better than anyone else. Sometimes he wins, sometimes he doesn't do > squat<G>. Only thing I want in my league is green racing, which we have. > > Anyway, more fuel for the fire<G> > > -John > >

Joachim Trensz wrote:

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> > And speaking for myself, I always know exactly whether there's another car > in the danger zone or not. > > Do I know where it is precisely? No, I don't, but I do what a driver in the > real world would do as well, and that is, I use all the cues I have and, > more important, if I don't know whether the track location I want to drive > to is vacant, then I treat it as if it were occupied - I use it.

Exactly! If you have any situational awareness at all, you know when a car has just gone into one of your small blindspots. That should be enough, sure works for me & many others I know of. -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:39:53 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote: >However, its a tad too long....watch out, you'll be accused of being like >"Pabst" if you don't knock it off.....along with everything you write being >"off-topic" according to the "on-topic/off-topic" police, headed up by Mr. >Solheim. ....lol... > >TP Johns post was long but was actually interesting ;) And ignore the OT police, nothing annoys me more than people who complain about OT posts. Just simply add OT: to your post and all will be fine :) Andre

Hi John, when we started racing online in GPL, for the first time in larger groups as opposed to one-on-one sessions in ICR2 + Nascar2, that was quite an experience for all of us. A pet peeve of many drivers at that time was the limited peripheral vision and the lack of awareness as to the precise whereabouts of the cars directly around your's. However, nobody seemed to want to use kite, rollbar or hood views in my league, so we had to put up with what we had. When I compare then and now, I become aware that most of the guys have gotten used to the situation very well. Accidents caused by someone really not _knowing_ where the other cars are rarely happen. And speaking for myself, I always know exactly whether there's another car in the danger zone or not. Do I know where it is precisely? No, I don't, but I do what a driver in the real world would do as well, and that is, I use all the cues I have and, more important, if I don't know whether the track location I want to drive to is vacant, then I treat it as if it were occupied - I use it. It's that easy. It's been a painful way to learn to accept this fact, but I think it's what a real racedriver learns as well - only that for him it is a more natural learning process because mistakes get punished much harder - accidents _really_ hurt in a real car. But if we in the sim just focus on arriving at the s/f line without causing accidents and do what good reason tells us to do rather than blindly hurrying through the race and always seeking our advantage without thinking twice whether it's wise to do so right now or not, that's all you need to do. Situational awareness alone isn't the clue, it's self restraint, self restraint and self restraint. And then situational awareness ;-) I personally perceive this as an additional level of simulation, as an additional tactical challenge in online racing, and I quite happily accept that challenge. For me, the constraints of cockpit view are not only fairly realistic, they also add an interesting aspect to the simulation. But, I am also aware that I savour these aspects because I want a simulation as real as possible, and am willing to work my way towards the goal. This is not everyone's loaf of bread. No pun intended to those who don't use cockpit view - just my 2c worth... Achim

Disagree based on one simple observation - in real life you have close to 180 degree peripheral vision, on any simulated view on a monitor you cannot have that without significant distortion. In a real car I can see the entire rear view mirror and all the way over to the right a-post without turning my head. I can also see about the front 1/3 or so of my left side window without turning my head. I can't do that in the cockpit view in any sim that I have played, and yet despite the narrow view there is still significant perspective distortion of the objects around me, to the point where cars that are passing me in parallel appear to be cutting in front of me. Even though I do use the cockpit view most of the time, I still have not gotten used to that distortion. Now to another point, whether the roof cam gives more FOV - it does not. Well I haven't tried this in N2002 yet, but in N4 I compared the two views carefully, and the roof cam did not appear to increase my FOV at all. What the roof cam does is move your eye point up and away from the surrounding traffic enough to reduce the perspective distortion to the point where it is manageable. This is why I think people should be allowed to use the roof cam - it does not increase FOV, it just reduces distortion. And as far as the roof cam allowing you to see farther up the track, I will repeat what I said in another thread, you can look through other people's windows when in the cockpit view, it's not that hard, so I don't believe the roof cam has a serious or unfair advantage here either. "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Fwiw, here's a point needs to be made......at least I think so<G>Keep > seeing some post, "The cockpit view is claustrophobic" "Not like mycar", > etc. > > Guys, you're not driving your car. You're driving a simulated stockcar. > Also, the view in an actual stock car IS very claustrophic. It's notan > open wheel cockpit<G> > The drivers are strapped in a literal shell, with blinders in theform of > cushions/nets on both sides of their head. Some even cut holes inthis, for > a very small window to at least see something to the side. And thatdoesn't > include all the tubing, bracing, etc. that's in a real stock car,that's not > in the sim cockpit. > > There's a reason they have spotters<G> That, and your F2 key andmirror > gives a very accurate feel for an actual stock car driver's visionIMO. Not > perfect, but not nearly as unrealistic as some believe. > > Whether some allowances could be made for pc limitations could be awhole > 'nother thread, but the cockpit view in N2002 isn't to bad, especiallyin > relation to side view WITHOUT the look left/right keys. If anything's > unrealistic, it's those views. > > On a side note, since it came up. Yep, there's ways to alter yourroof > cam shots. N4 had one that put the driver farther forward into thecockpit. > Still in the pit, just as if you scooted the seat up towards the dasha bit. > Personally, I don't consider it a cheat. It's available fordownload on > the net(though I can't remember where), and I'm sure N2002 will havethe > same thing. Probably already does. I've never used it except to lookat, > didn't want to take the time to get used to it, but thought it wasquite > good actually. A cheat is someone using something that others don'thave > easy access to IMO. What about the fov utility for GPL? Same thingIMO. > Anyone can use it if they want. > Whether this view gives an advantage, I don't think so. And withall the > hacks done to GPL, well, you get the point<G> There's a driver in my > league who uses the roof view(or at least a long time ago, he said hedid). > He hasn't caused any more problems than anyone else, nor is hemarkedly > better than anyone else. Sometimes he wins, sometimes he doesn't do > squat<G>. Only thing I want in my league is green racing, which wehave. > > Anyway, more fuel for the fire<G> > > -John > >

True, but you missed my point; we're talking about a simulated stock car, not your car. There is very, very little peripheal vision in a stock car because of equipment; even if they could turn their heads ala Linda Blair, they don't see much. Certainly not anything close to 90 degrees right or left. Take that stuff away, yep, you should be able to see as you say below. But then it wouldn't be a very good simulated cockpit. That's why I said the look left/right views are unrealistic; in the actual cars, equipment would be in the way from these views. But they're nice to have, for sure. -John "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5gdtf$788h6$[email hidden]...

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> Disagree based on one simple observation - in real life you have close > to 180 degree peripheral vision, on any simulated view on a monitor you > cannot have that without significant distortion. In a real car I can > see the entire rear view mirror and all the way over to the right a-post > without turning my head. I can also see about the front 1/3 or so of my > left side window without turning my head. I can't do that in the > cockpit view in any sim that I have played, and yet despite the narrow > view there is still significant perspective distortion of the objects > around me, to the point where cars that are passing me in parallel > appear to be cutting in front of me. Even though I do use the cockpit > view most of the time, I still have not gotten used to that distortion. > Now to another point, whether the roof cam gives more FOV - it does not. > Well I haven't tried this in N2002 yet, but in N4 I compared the two > views carefully, and the roof cam did not appear to increase my FOV at > all. What the roof cam does is move your eye point up and away from the > surrounding traffic enough to reduce the perspective distortion to the > point where it is manageable. This is why I think people should be > allowed to use the roof cam - it does not increase FOV, it just reduces > distortion. And as far as the roof cam allowing you to see farther up > the track, I will repeat what I said in another thread, you can look > through other people's windows when in the cockpit view, it's not that > hard, so I don't believe the roof cam has a serious or unfair advantage > here either. > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Fwiw, here's a point needs to be made......at least I think so<G> > Keep > > seeing some post, "The cockpit view is claustrophobic" "Not like my > car", > > etc. > > > > Guys, you're not driving your car. You're driving a simulated stock > car. > > Also, the view in an actual stock car IS very claustrophic. It's not > an > > open wheel cockpit<G> > > The drivers are strapped in a literal shell, with blinders in the > form of > > cushions/nets on both sides of their head. Some even cut holes in > this, for > > a very small window to at least see something to the side. And that > doesn't > > include all the tubing, bracing, etc. that's in a real stock car, > that's not > > in the sim cockpit. > > > > There's a reason they have spotters<G> That, and your F2 key and > mirror > > gives a very accurate feel for an actual stock car driver's vision > IMO. Not > > perfect, but not nearly as unrealistic as some believe. > > > > Whether some allowances could be made for pc limitations could be a > whole > > 'nother thread, but the cockpit view in N2002 isn't to bad, especially > in > > relation to side view WITHOUT the look left/right keys. If anything's > > unrealistic, it's those views. > > > > On a side note, since it came up. Yep, there's ways to alter your > roof > > cam shots. N4 had one that put the driver farther forward into the > cockpit. > > Still in the pit, just as if you scooted the seat up towards the dash > a bit. > > Personally, I don't consider it a cheat. It's available for > download on > > the net(though I can't remember where), and I'm sure N2002 will have > the > > same thing. Probably already does. I've never used it except to look > at, > > didn't want to take the time to get used to it, but thought it was > quite > > good actually. A cheat is someone using something that others don't > have > > easy access to IMO. What about the fov utility for GPL? Same thing > IMO. > > Anyone can use it if they want. > > Whether this view gives an advantage, I don't think so. And with > all the > > hacks done to GPL, well, you get the point<G> There's a driver in my > > league who uses the roof view(or at least a long time ago, he said he > did). > > He hasn't caused any more problems than anyone else, nor is he > markedly > > better than anyone else. Sometimes he wins, sometimes he doesn't do > > squat<G>. Only thing I want in my league is green racing, which we > have. > > > > Anyway, more fuel for the fire<G> > > > > -John > > > > >

You never know when to stop do you Tom? "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:c%Ne8.365$mG.1829@rwcrnsc54... > Good post, John. Its a good "summary" of the issues and spot on for the > issue of how much "view" a driver has from a real WC car. > > However, its a tad too long....watch out, you'll be accused of being like > "Pabst" if you don't knock it off.....along with everything you writebeing

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> "off-topic" according to the "on-topic/off-topic" police, headed up by Mr. > Solheim. ....lol... > > TP > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Fwiw, here's a point needs to be made......at least I think so<G>

Keep > > seeing some post, "The cockpit view is claustrophobic" "Not like mycar",

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> > etc. > > > > Guys, you're not driving your car. You're driving a simulated stock > car. > > Also, the view in an actual stock car IS very claustrophic. It's not an > > open wheel cockpit<G> > > The drivers are strapped in a literal shell, with blinders in the form > of > > cushions/nets on both sides of their head. Some even cut holes in this, > for > > a very small window to at least see something to the side. And that > doesn't > > include all the tubing, bracing, etc. that's in a real stock car, that's > not > > in the sim cockpit. > > > > There's a reason they have spotters<G> That, and your F2 key and

mirror

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> > gives a very accurate feel for an actual stock car driver's vision IMO. > Not > > perfect, but not nearly as unrealistic as some believe. > > > > Whether some allowances could be made for pc limitations could be a > whole > > 'nother thread, but the cockpit view in N2002 isn't to bad, especially

in > > relation to side view WITHOUT the look left/right keys. If anything's > > unrealistic, it's those views. > > > > On a side note, since it came up. Yep, there's ways to alter yourroof > > cam shots. N4 had one that put the driver farther forward into the > cockpit. > > Still in the pit, just as if you scooted the seat up towards the dash a > bit. > > Personally, I don't consider it a cheat. It's available for downloadon > > the net(though I can't remember where), and I'm sure N2002 will have the > > same thing. Probably already does. I've never used it except to lookat, > > didn't want to take the time to get used to it, but thought it was quite > > good actually. A cheat is someone using something that others don'thave > > easy access to IMO. What about the fov utility for GPL? Same thingIMO.

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> > Anyone can use it if they want. > > Whether this view gives an advantage, I don't think so. And with all > the > > hacks done to GPL, well, you get the point<G> There's a driver in my > > league who uses the roof view(or at least a long time ago, he said he > did). > > He hasn't caused any more problems than anyone else, nor is he markedly > > better than anyone else. Sometimes he wins, sometimes he doesn't do > > squat<G>. Only thing I want in my league is green racing, which we

have.

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> > > > Anyway, more fuel for the fire<G> > > > > -John > > > > > >

Although I do prefer in-car view myself, I'm more interrested in fair play... mean that everyone play by the same rules and limitations.... I would compare it to First Person Shooters... imagine how much fun FPS' would be if some people could use 3rd. person view while some "had" to to use first person view... It seem to like atleast Papyrus have understood this and included the option more stricked race-rules for the hosts... let's hope others follow soon. -- ed_

Thanks Andre....that is good advice.....now, figuring out what is "OT" will be an interesting self-education. ...lol... Tom "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:39:53 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >However, its a tad too long....watch out, you'll be accused of being like > >"Pabst" if you don't knock it off.....along with everything you writebeing > >"off-topic" according to the "on-topic/off-topic" police, headed up byMr.

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> >Solheim. ....lol... > > > >TP > > Johns post was long but was actually interesting ;) > And ignore the OT police, nothing annoys me more than people who > complain about OT posts. Just simply add OT: to your post and all will > be fine :) > > Andre

That is the one thing missing in this Gameulation <G> if those to "looks" would move smoothly instead of jump and look that would improve the incar 100% to me and Im an Incar guy.. I've driven a real Winston Cup car on seveal occasion (used to work for a winston cup team) And thats all thats missing is being able to turn your head a little each way. "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... | | Whether some allowances could be made for pc limitations could be a whole | 'nother thread, but the cockpit view in N2002 isn't to bad, especially in | relation to side view WITHOUT the look left/right keys. If anything's | unrealistic, it's those views. |

The last thing they want from you Tom is a post that goes into OverTime. ;) Scott PA-Scott "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7APe8.6526$Dv1.24839@rwcrnsc53... > Thanks Andre....that is good advice.....now, figuring out what is "OT"will

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> be an interesting self-education. ...lol... > > Tom > > > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:39:53 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> > > wrote: > > > > >However, its a tad too long....watch out, you'll be accused of being

like

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> > >"Pabst" if you don't knock it off.....along with everything you write > being > > >"off-topic" according to the "on-topic/off-topic" police, headed up by > Mr. > > >Solheim. ....lol... > > > > > >TP > > > > Johns post was long but was actually interesting ;) > > And ignore the OT police, nothing annoys me more than people who > > complain about OT posts. Just simply add OT: to your post and all will > > be fine :) > > > > Andre > >

I agree, that's the main thing I don't like about the in car view as is. "Blake" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:mMPe8.226680$[email hidden]... > That is the one thing missing in this Gameulation <G> if those to "looks"would move smoothly instead of jump and look that would > improve the incar 100% to me and Im an Incar guy.. I've driven a realWinston Cup car on seveal occasion (used to work for a winston > cup team) And thats all thats missing is being able to turn your head alittle each way. > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]... > | > | Whether some allowances could be made for pc limitations could be awhole > | 'nother thread, but the cockpit view in N2002 isn't to bad, especiallyin > | relation to side view WITHOUT the look left/right keys. If anything's > | unrealistic, it's those views. > | > >

Yep. A pan feature ala flight sims would be nice. -John "Blake" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:mMPe8.226680$[email hidden]... > That is the one thing missing in this Gameulation <G> if those to "looks"would move smoothly instead of jump and look that would > improve the incar 100% to me and Im an Incar guy.. I've driven a realWinston Cup car on seveal occasion (used to work for a winston > cup team) And thats all thats missing is being able to turn your head alittle each way. > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]... > | > | Whether some allowances could be made for pc limitations could be awhole > | 'nother thread, but the cockpit view in N2002 isn't to bad, especiallyin > | relation to side view WITHOUT the look left/right keys. If anything's > | unrealistic, it's those views. > | > >

Ya, pan on a self centering hat button would probably work good. We'll get this thing figured out yet :) "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Yep. A pan feature ala flight sims would be nice. > > -John > > > "Blake" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:mMPe8.226680$[email hidden]... > > That is the one thing missing in this Gameulation <G> if those to

"looks"

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> would move smoothly instead of jump and look that would > > improve the incar 100% to me and Im an Incar guy.. I've driven a real > Winston Cup car on seveal occasion (used to work for a winston > > cup team) And thats all thats missing is being able to turn your head a > little each way. > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > | > > | Whether some allowances could be made for pc limitations could be a > whole > > | 'nother thread, but the cockpit view in N2002 isn't to bad, especially > in > > | relation to side view WITHOUT the look left/right keys. If anything's > > | unrealistic, it's those views. > > | > > > > > >

You are right, if you are talking about driving _without_ a helmet ;-) /Carl "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5gdtf$788h6$[email hidden]...

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> Disagree based on one simple observation - in real life you have close > to 180 degree peripheral vision, on any simulated view on a monitor you > cannot have that without significant distortion. In a real car I can > see the entire rear view mirror and all the way over to the right a-post > without turning my head. I can also see about the front 1/3 or so of my > left side window without turning my head. I can't do that in the > cockpit view in any sim that I have played, and yet despite the narrow > view there is still significant perspective distortion of the objects > around me, to the point where cars that are passing me in parallel > appear to be cutting in front of me.

Hasqsau.... The same "distortion" exists when you are in a real race car....especially a closed cockpit race car. Cars passing you on either right or left...close in....appear exactly the same in a real race car as they do in N2002 at least......and in F1-2002 (IMHO). I can "tell you this"....but not prove it to you without you climbing into a real race car and seeing it for yourself. It has to do with your restricted peripheral vision...and the fact that your "racing eyes" are focused far down track....yet you can see/sense a car pulling up along side you....and passing you only peripherally. But...its hard to tell exactly how close the car is....or where its body starts and stops....because you are not focusing on it....you are focusing on the track 200 yards ahead of you. Also, engine/track surface vibration makes your eyes see mostly blur....in close up detail and you can't afford the time to refocus your eyes on close objects...then back down track. So, your peripheral vision is also quite out of focus in a race car as well as distorted. You can't see "detail" on your dash either. You know which gauge is which...and you can roughly see where the needle is generally pointing....in about the 1/10th of one blurry second you have to sweep your gauges....then mirror...then eyes back down track. The adjustment of your iris to the bright light down track...then the dark light inside the car....is not fast enough. Your dash vision is virtually useless while racing. You guys who have never raced need to realize that driving a race car at speed....in competition...is nothing like driving a street car to work. Its as different as night and day. Driving a race car at speed....in close contact....its like being put into a washing machine......then someone hits the "spin cycle"....and you are off into a blur of action and reaction. You will mostly act/react as you have trained your subconscious mind during practice......thousands of hours of practice and race experience.....run *you* when you are in a race car. You don't have time to "think"....and you don't have time to focus on anything except the line. On a road course....in close combat racing.....you make hundreds of decisions in tenths of a second....on every lap. Mostly.....your subconscious mind does all that work. Your eyes....are only part (about 1/6th part) of the tools and support for the subconscious mind while racing. The only thing you can see under these conditions....with any certainty....is straight ahead down track! Most of the turns, apexes and exits....on road courses...are blind. You hit your exit only if you guess correctly where the apex is....and you have no time to correct your subconscious inputs. Those of you complaining about not being able to see into the turns at Sears in N2002.....well guess what guys.....you can't see into most of them in a real car at Sears either! You want to try and simulate what its like in a real race car.....here's something fun to try....I've done this and it works pretty well: You need two friends to help you with this. First, put on a race helmet or motorcycle helmet if you can borrow one. Second....sit down in your race rig at home....even if its at a desk....it doesn't matter. Use your normal wheel and screen position. The only difference, you have a helmet on. Now...have your first friend take two things that vibrate (sanders work great for this) and put on on each side of your helmet....while also holding your helmet virtually straight ahead (you can turn your eyes.....but not your head except within the helmet only. Have the other friend grab your helmet at the top...and side (using the front lobe of the helmet for one hand and the back or bottom back with the other). His job is to shake your helmet up and down and side to side.....get him to try to match what your race car is doing on the track (run Sears....it works great for this experiment). He should also slap your helmet hard about 6 times a minute. Now...turn your sound up to around 100 db's if your sound system can handle it. Go run some laps with the AI at Sears...and your two buddies vibrating your head and slamming it around. That will be a lot more like what its like to "race" in a real race car. I'd be interested in comments from any of you who try this experiment. Its fun.....and it will take a little practice on the part of your buddies....but you'll get actually very good at doing this. Switch around....all three can give a go at the wheel with this. Tom PS: Some of you guys who race....am I pretty accurate about this or what? Let's hear from you....especially some of you guys who dirt track race - Sprint cars are 10 times worse than what I've described above. If you want to try the above experiment...but simulate racing a Sprint car: Use two car buffers instead of sanders....and add a third friend....whose job it is to slug you in the sternum and slug you in the middle of your back....about as hard as he can....about 10 times every minute! Have fun racing! Let us all know how many days it takes for your body to recover from about a half hour of this treatment.....lol.... "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5gdtf$788h6$[email hidden]...

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> Disagree based on one simple observation - in real life you have close > to 180 degree peripheral vision, on any simulated view on a monitor you > cannot have that without significant distortion. In a real car I can > see the entire rear view mirror and all the way over to the right a-post > without turning my head. I can also see about the front 1/3 or so of my > left side window without turning my head. I can't do that in the > cockpit view in any sim that I have played, and yet despite the narrow > view there is still significant perspective distortion of the objects > around me, to the point where cars that are passing me in parallel > appear to be cutting in front of me. Even though I do use the cockpit > view most of the time, I still have not gotten used to that distortion. > Now to another point, whether the roof cam gives more FOV - it does not. > Well I haven't tried this in N2002 yet, but in N4 I compared the two > views carefully, and the roof cam did not appear to increase my FOV at > all. What the roof cam does is move your eye point up and away from the > surrounding traffic enough to reduce the perspective distortion to the > point where it is manageable. This is why I think people should be > allowed to use the roof cam - it does not increase FOV, it just reduces > distortion. And as far as the roof cam allowing you to see farther up > the track, I will repeat what I said in another thread, you can look > through other people's windows when in the cockpit view, it's not that > hard, so I don't believe the roof cam has a serious or unfair advantage > here either. > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Fwiw, here's a point needs to be made......at least I think so<G> > Keep > > seeing some post, "The cockpit view is claustrophobic" "Not like my > car", > > etc. > > > > Guys, you're not driving your car. You're driving a simulated stock > car. > > Also, the view in an actual stock car IS very claustrophic. It's not > an > > open wheel cockpit<G> > > The drivers are strapped in a literal shell, with blinders in the > form of > > cushions/nets on both sides of their head. Some even cut holes in > this, for > > a very small window to at least see something to the side. And that > doesn't > > include all the tubing, bracing, etc. that's in a real stock car, > that's not > > in the sim cockpit. > > > > There's a reason they have spotters<G> That, and your F2 key and > mirror > > gives a very accurate feel for an actual stock car driver's vision > IMO. Not > > perfect, but not nearly as unrealistic as some believe. > > > > Whether some allowances could be made for pc limitations could be a > whole > > 'nother thread, but the cockpit view in N2002 isn't to bad, especially > in > > relation to side view WITHOUT the look left/right keys. If anything's > > unrealistic, it's those views. > > > > On a side note, since it came up. Yep, there's ways to alter your > roof > > cam shots. N4 had one that put the driver farther forward into the > cockpit. > > Still in the pit, just as if you scooted the seat up towards the dash > a bit. > > Personally, I don't consider it a cheat. It's available for > download on > > the net(though I can't remember where), and I'm sure N2002 will have > the > > same thing. Probably already does. I've never used it except to look > at, > > didn't want to take the time to get used to it, but thought it was > quite > > good actually. A cheat is someone using something that others don't > have > > easy access to IMO. What about the fov utility for GPL? Same thing > IMO. > > Anyone can use it if they want. > > Whether this view gives an advantage, I don't think so. And with > all the > > hacks done to GPL, well, you get the point<G> There's a driver in my > > league who uses the roof view(or at least a long time ago, he said he > did). > > He hasn't caused any more problems than anyone else, nor is he > markedly > > better than anyone else. Sometimes he wins, sometimes he doesn't do > > squat<G>. Only thing I want in my league is green racing, which we > have. > > > > Anyway, more fuel for the fire<G> > > > > -John > > > > >

Nascar 8 :) -John "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:v4Qe8.21875$[email hidden]...

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> Ya, pan on a self centering hat button would probably work good. > We'll get this thing figured out yet :) > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Yep. A pan feature ala flight sims would be nice. > > > > -John > > > > > > "Blake" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:mMPe8.226680$[email hidden]... > > > That is the one thing missing in this Gameulation <G> if those to > "looks" > > would move smoothly instead of jump and look that would > > > improve the incar 100% to me and Im an Incar guy.. I've driven a real > > Winston Cup car on seveal occasion (used to work for a winston > > > cup team) And thats all thats missing is being able to turn your head

a > > little each way. > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > | > > > | Whether some allowances could be made for pc limitations could bea > > whole > > > | 'nother thread, but the cockpit view in N2002 isn't to bad,especially > > in > > > | relation to side view WITHOUT the look left/right keys. Ifanything's

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> > > | unrealistic, it's those views. > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > >

John Pancoast wrote: > > Yep. A pan feature ala flight sims would be nice. A mouselook like iL2, but just panning left and right and controlled with this http://www.headtracking.com/? Gerry

> But, I am also aware that I savour these aspects because I want asimulation > as real as possible, and am willing to work my way towards the goal. I'll ask this again in the quest to keep it as "real" as possible, do you wear a helmet and firesuit or play in a 120 degree environment? I always find it amazing that its always the cockpit view players that are always trying to convert people that use the roof/kite cams. It seems like the Cockpit Cam Cult is trying to save the sim world from the evil roof dwellers. I never have seen Reverend Roof View preaching how the word would be a better place if everyone drove from his POV. A perfect example is how this whole mess started this time. Someone asked about getting better sounds for the roof view. He didn't say "I need better sounds because the cockpit view sucks". What happens? one of the CCC (Cockpit Cam Cult) had to chime in on how it was wrong to use the roof view. Then I post a link giving him what he asked for after a couple posts said that it wasn't possible. So I proved them wrong. Then what happens? Again along comes the CCC again saying the only thing I proved was how wrong it was to use the roof cam. Get over it people not everyone agrees with you. There are those of us that just want to have fun maybe live out a fantasy of being a NASCAR driver. Guess what guys fantasies are not real (shocking I know) I'll never be a sim legend nor do I can that I won't. I play to have fun nothing more. This whole argument is the best reason for Papy to improve the AI. Rodney King "Can't we all just get along?" MadDAWG Disclaimer : This whole post was not aimed at one individual, but at the whole Cockpit Cam Cult.

Yep, exactly. Il-2's great for this. Been thinking of getting one of those, have heard both bad and good on them. What's your .02? -John "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > John Pancoast wrote: > > > > Yep. A pan feature ala flight sims would be nice. > > A mouselook like iL2, but just panning left and right and controlled > with > this http://www.headtracking.com/? > > Gerry

MadDAWG wrote:

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> > > But, I am also aware that I savour these aspects because I want a > simulation > > as real as possible, and am willing to work my way towards the goal. > > I'll ask this again in the quest to keep it as "real" as possible, do you > wear a helmet and firesuit or play in a 120 degree environment?

No, because that would be silly! Do you think the cockpit view is silly too!?

Exactly, it was me that asked and you that gave me what I wanted but some where along the line that got lost. I don't care what view people use but I take offence to the cockpitters belittling anyone that doesn't use their view. Your right. If those guys aren't wearing full safety gear and sitting in real heat then it's nothing more than an arcade game now isn't it ;) I bet none of them use the F keys either as that would be cheating. They probably all run 100% races too, with real weather, and real setups. If their not using FF wheels then it's not real either as they aren't getting the tiring effect on their arms. Just kidding guys but remember, there is more to this game than just the view. I take it as serious as anyone else, more and a lot do. People it's a sim and it's a game, we all get different things out of it. None of them are wrong or right, just different. "MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > But, I am also aware that I savour these aspects because I want a > simulation > > as real as possible, and am willing to work my way towards the goal. > > I'll ask this again in the quest to keep it as "real" as possible, do you > wear a helmet and firesuit or play in a 120 degree environment? > > I always find it amazing that its always the cockpit view players that are > always trying to convert people that use the roof/kite cams. It seems like > the Cockpit Cam Cult is trying to save the sim world from the evil roof > dwellers. I never have seen Reverend Roof View preaching how the word

would > be a better place if everyone drove from his POV. A perfect example is how > this whole mess started this time. Someone asked about getting bettersounds > for the roof view. He didn't say "I need better sounds because the cockpit > view sucks". What happens? one of the CCC (Cockpit Cam Cult) had to chimein > on how it was wrong to use the roof view. Then I post a link giving himwhat > he asked for after a couple posts said that it wasn't possible. So Iproved > them wrong. Then what happens? Again along comes the CCC again saying the > only thing I proved was how wrong it was to use the roof cam. Get over it > people not everyone agrees with you. There are those of us that just wantto > have fun maybe live out a fantasy of being a NASCAR driver. Guess whatguys > fantasies are not real (shocking I know) I'll never be a sim legend nordo > I can that I won't. I play to have fun nothing more. This whole argumentis

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> the best reason for Papy to improve the AI. > > Rodney King "Can't we all just get along?" > > MadDAWG > > Disclaimer : This whole post was not aimed at one individual, but at the > whole Cockpit Cam Cult. > >

Does that "head tracker" work for IL2? It supported in any other games such as Q3 and UT? "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Yep, exactly. Il-2's great for this. Been thinking of getting one of > those, have heard both bad and good on them. What's your .02? > > -John > > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > John Pancoast wrote: > > > > > > Yep. A pan feature ala flight sims would be nice. > > > > A mouselook like iL2, but just panning left and right and controlled > > with > > this http://www.headtracking.com/? > > > > Gerry > >

I see your point about peripheral vision, but again one of the bothersome things to me about the cockpit view is the perspective distortion, which is somewhat reduced when using the roof view. Personally I still prefer cockpit view, but I don't see why letting someone use a roof view is a problem. "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > True, but you missed my point; we're talking about a simulated stockcar, > not your car. There is very, very little peripheal vision in a stockcar > because of equipment; even if they could turn their heads ala LindaBlair, > they don't see much. Certainly not anything close to 90 degrees rightor > left. > Take that stuff away, yep, you should be able to see as you saybelow. > But then it wouldn't be a very good simulated cockpit. That's why Isaid > the look left/right views are unrealistic; in the actual cars,equipment

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> would be in the way from these views. > But they're nice to have, for sure. > > -John > > > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:a5gdtf$788h6$[email hidden]... > > Disagree based on one simple observation - in real life you have

close > > to 180 degree peripheral vision, on any simulated view on a monitoryou > > cannot have that without significant distortion. In a real car Ican > > see the entire rear view mirror and all the way over to the righta-post > > without turning my head. I can also see about the front 1/3 or soof my > > left side window without turning my head. I can't do that in the > > cockpit view in any sim that I have played, and yet despite thenarrow > > view there is still significant perspective distortion of theobjects > > around me, to the point where cars that are passing me in parallel > > appear to be cutting in front of me. Even though I do use thecockpit > > view most of the time, I still have not gotten used to thatdistortion. > > Now to another point, whether the roof cam gives more FOV - it doesnot. > > Well I haven't tried this in N2002 yet, but in N4 I compared the two > > views carefully, and the roof cam did not appear to increase my FOVat > > all. What the roof cam does is move your eye point up and away fromthe > > surrounding traffic enough to reduce the perspective distortion tothe > > point where it is manageable. This is why I think people should be > > allowed to use the roof cam - it does not increase FOV, it justreduces > > distortion. And as far as the roof cam allowing you to see fartherup > > the track, I will repeat what I said in another thread, you can look > > through other people's windows when in the cockpit view, it's notthat > > hard, so I don't believe the roof cam has a serious or unfairadvantage > > here either. > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Fwiw, here's a point needs to be made......at least I thinkso<G> > > Keep > > > seeing some post, "The cockpit view is claustrophobic" "Not likemy > > car", > > > etc. > > > > > > Guys, you're not driving your car. You're driving a simulatedstock > > car. > > > Also, the view in an actual stock car IS very claustrophic. It'snot > > an > > > open wheel cockpit<G> > > > The drivers are strapped in a literal shell, with blinders inthe > > form of > > > cushions/nets on both sides of their head. Some even cut holes in > > this, for > > > a very small window to at least see something to the side. Andthat > > doesn't > > > include all the tubing, bracing, etc. that's in a real stock car, > > that's not > > > in the sim cockpit. > > > > > > There's a reason they have spotters<G> That, and your F2 keyand > > mirror > > > gives a very accurate feel for an actual stock car driver's vision > > IMO. Not > > > perfect, but not nearly as unrealistic as some believe. > > > > > > Whether some allowances could be made for pc limitations couldbe a > > whole > > > 'nother thread, but the cockpit view in N2002 isn't to bad,especially > > in > > > relation to side view WITHOUT the look left/right keys. Ifanything's > > > unrealistic, it's those views. > > > > > > On a side note, since it came up. Yep, there's ways to alteryour > > roof > > > cam shots. N4 had one that put the driver farther forward intothe > > cockpit. > > > Still in the pit, just as if you scooted the seat up towards thedash > > a bit. > > > Personally, I don't consider it a cheat. It's available for > > download on > > > the net(though I can't remember where), and I'm sure N2002 willhave > > the > > > same thing. Probably already does. I've never used it except tolook > > at, > > > didn't want to take the time to get used to it, but thought it was > > quite > > > good actually. A cheat is someone using something that othersdon't > > have > > > easy access to IMO. What about the fov utility for GPL? Samething > > IMO. > > > Anyone can use it if they want. > > > Whether this view gives an advantage, I don't think so. Andwith > > all the > > > hacks done to GPL, well, you get the point<G> There's a driverin my > > > league who uses the roof view(or at least a long time ago, he saidhe > > did). > > > He hasn't caused any more problems than anyone else, nor is he > > markedly > > > better than anyone else. Sometimes he wins, sometimes he doesn'tdo > > > squat<G>. Only thing I want in my league is green racing, whichwe

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> > have. > > > > > > Anyway, more fuel for the fire<G> > > > > > > -John > > > > > > > > > >

Good point. "Carl Ribbegaardh" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5giqd$7663i$[email hidden]... > You are right, if you are talking about driving _without_ a helmet ;-) > > /Carl >

John Pancoast wrote: > > Yep, exactly. Il-2's great for this. Been thinking of getting one of > those, have heard both bad and good on them. What's your .02? Ordered one on a 'try & buy' basis, so i'll let you know. It's a new moded version BTW. Gerry

Yep, agreed. -John "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5gkqb$77s0p$[email hidden]...

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> I see your point about peripheral vision, but again one of the > bothersome things to me about the cockpit view is the perspective > distortion, which is somewhat reduced when using the roof view. > Personally I still prefer cockpit view, but I don't see why letting > someone use a roof view is a problem. > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > True, but you missed my point; we're talking about a simulated stock > car, > > not your car. There is very, very little peripheal vision in a stock > car > > because of equipment; even if they could turn their heads ala Linda > Blair, > > they don't see much. Certainly not anything close to 90 degrees right > or > > left. > > Take that stuff away, yep, you should be able to see as you say > below. > > But then it wouldn't be a very good simulated cockpit. That's why I > said > > the look left/right views are unrealistic; in the actual cars, > equipment > > would be in the way from these views. > > But they're nice to have, for sure. > > > > -John > > > > > > > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:a5gdtf$788h6$[email hidden]... > > > Disagree based on one simple observation - in real life you have > close > > > to 180 degree peripheral vision, on any simulated view on a monitor > you > > > cannot have that without significant distortion. In a real car I > can > > > see the entire rear view mirror and all the way over to the right > a-post > > > without turning my head. I can also see about the front 1/3 or so > of my > > > left side window without turning my head. I can't do that in the > > > cockpit view in any sim that I have played, and yet despite the > narrow > > > view there is still significant perspective distortion of the > objects > > > around me, to the point where cars that are passing me in parallel > > > appear to be cutting in front of me. Even though I do use the > cockpit > > > view most of the time, I still have not gotten used to that > distortion. > > > Now to another point, whether the roof cam gives more FOV - it does > not. > > > Well I haven't tried this in N2002 yet, but in N4 I compared the two > > > views carefully, and the roof cam did not appear to increase my FOV > at > > > all. What the roof cam does is move your eye point up and away from > the > > > surrounding traffic enough to reduce the perspective distortion to > the > > > point where it is manageable. This is why I think people should be > > > allowed to use the roof cam - it does not increase FOV, it just > reduces > > > distortion. And as far as the roof cam allowing you to see farther > up > > > the track, I will repeat what I said in another thread, you can look > > > through other people's windows when in the cockpit view, it's not > that > > > hard, so I don't believe the roof cam has a serious or unfair > advantage > > > here either. > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Fwiw, here's a point needs to be made......at least I think > so<G> > > > Keep > > > > seeing some post, "The cockpit view is claustrophobic" "Not like > my > > > car", > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > Guys, you're not driving your car. You're driving a simulated > stock > > > car. > > > > Also, the view in an actual stock car IS very claustrophic. It's > not > > > an > > > > open wheel cockpit<G> > > > > The drivers are strapped in a literal shell, with blinders in > the > > > form of > > > > cushions/nets on both sides of their head. Some even cut holes in > > > this, for > > > > a very small window to at least see something to the side. And > that > > > doesn't > > > > include all the tubing, bracing, etc. that's in a real stock car, > > > that's not > > > > in the sim cockpit. > > > > > > > > There's a reason they have spotters<G> That, and your F2 key > and > > > mirror > > > > gives a very accurate feel for an actual stock car driver's vision > > > IMO. Not > > > > perfect, but not nearly as unrealistic as some believe. > > > > > > > > Whether some allowances could be made for pc limitations could > be a > > > whole > > > > 'nother thread, but the cockpit view in N2002 isn't to bad, > especially > > > in > > > > relation to side view WITHOUT the look left/right keys. If > anything's > > > > unrealistic, it's those views. > > > > > > > > On a side note, since it came up. Yep, there's ways to alter > your > > > roof > > > > cam shots. N4 had one that put the driver farther forward into > the > > > cockpit. > > > > Still in the pit, just as if you scooted the seat up towards the > dash > > > a bit. > > > > Personally, I don't consider it a cheat. It's available for > > > download on > > > > the net(though I can't remember where), and I'm sure N2002 will > have > > > the > > > > same thing. Probably already does. I've never used it except to > look > > > at, > > > > didn't want to take the time to get used to it, but thought it was > > > quite > > > > good actually. A cheat is someone using something that others > don't > > > have > > > > easy access to IMO. What about the fov utility for GPL? Same > thing > > > IMO. > > > > Anyone can use it if they want. > > > > Whether this view gives an advantage, I don't think so. And > with > > > all the > > > > hacks done to GPL, well, you get the point<G> There's a driver > in my > > > > league who uses the roof view(or at least a long time ago, he said > he > > > did). > > > > He hasn't caused any more problems than anyone else, nor is he > > > markedly > > > > better than anyone else. Sometimes he wins, sometimes he doesn't > do > > > > squat<G>. Only thing I want in my league is green racing, which > we > > > have. > > > > > > > > Anyway, more fuel for the fire<G> > > > > > > > > -John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Good point. -John "MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > But, I am also aware that I savour these aspects because I want a > simulation > > as real as possible, and am willing to work my way towards the goal. > > I'll ask this again in the quest to keep it as "real" as possible, do you > wear a helmet and firesuit or play in a 120 degree environment? > > I always find it amazing that its always the cockpit view players that are > always trying to convert people that use the roof/kite cams. It seems like > the Cockpit Cam Cult is trying to save the sim world from the evil roof > dwellers. I never have seen Reverend Roof View preaching how the word

would > be a better place if everyone drove from his POV. A perfect example is how > this whole mess started this time. Someone asked about getting bettersounds > for the roof view. He didn't say "I need better sounds because the cockpit > view sucks". What happens? one of the CCC (Cockpit Cam Cult) had to chimein > on how it was wrong to use the roof view. Then I post a link giving himwhat > he asked for after a couple posts said that it wasn't possible. So Iproved > them wrong. Then what happens? Again along comes the CCC again saying the > only thing I proved was how wrong it was to use the roof cam. Get over it > people not everyone agrees with you. There are those of us that just wantto > have fun maybe live out a fantasy of being a NASCAR driver. Guess whatguys > fantasies are not real (shocking I know) I'll never be a sim legend nordo > I can that I won't. I play to have fun nothing more. This whole argumentis

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> the best reason for Papy to improve the AI. > > Rodney King "Can't we all just get along?" > > MadDAWG > > Disclaimer : This whole post was not aimed at one individual, but at the > whole Cockpit Cam Cult. > >

LOL! Nice visual, Tom, but no thanks, I'll stick to my safe comfy office chair, without "assists", for now! "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:J9Qe8.10360$9o.190800@sccrnsc02... > Hasqsau.... > > You want to try and simulate what its like in a real racecar.....here's > something fun to try....

> No, because that would be silly! Do you think the cockpit view is silly > too!? Do I think the cockpit view is silly ? No. Do I think all this BS about which view you "should" use is silly? Yes Do I think people playing a computer game and thinking its real is silly? Yes Do I think people that scream for realism not wearing a helmet or firesuit silly ? Yes because thats what they do for real, and its all about realism now isn't it? MadDAWG

k, thanks. Of course, one has to be co-ordinated enough to use one of these anyway, so I may be in trouble already<G> -John "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > John Pancoast wrote: > > > > Yep, exactly. Il-2's great for this. Been thinking of getting one of > > those, have heard both bad and good on them. What's your .02? > > Ordered one on a 'try & buy' basis, so i'll let you know. It's a new > moded version BTW. > > Gerry

Schooner wrote: > > Does that "head tracker" work for IL2? It supported in any other games such > as Q3 and UT? It emulates the mouse, so as long as the game has mouselook it will work. Il2 and UT have it, not sure about Q3. Gerry

Ya, Q3 and just about all FPS (first person shooters) games have mouse look. Read one review that said it was hard to aim with it in FPS though but hard to tell until you try it. "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Schooner wrote: > > > > Does that "head tracker" work for IL2? It supported in any other gamessuch > > as Q3 and UT? > > It emulates the mouse, so as long as the game has mouselook it will > work. Il2 and UT have it, not sure about Q3. > > Gerry

MadDAWG wrote:

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> > > No, because that would be silly! Do you think the cockpit view is silly > > too!? > > Do I think the cockpit view is silly ? No. > > Do I think all this BS about which view you "should" use is silly? Yes > > Do I think people playing a computer game and thinking its real is silly? > Yes > > Do I think people that scream for realism not wearing a helmet or firesuit > silly ? Yes because thats what they do for real, and its all about realism > now isn't it? > > MadDAWG

Now your just being sillier. Gerry

What? I wear a helmet and fire suit Dont you????? <G> "MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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| Yes | | Do I think people that scream for realism not wearing a helmet or firesuit | silly ? Yes because thats what they do for real, and its all about realism | now isn't it? | | MadDAWG | | |

Schooner wrote: > > Ya, Q3 and just about all FPS (first person shooters) games have mouse look. > Read one review that said it was hard to aim with it in FPS though but hard > to tell until you try it. Using head tracking to aim IS hard as hell. I did some tests using a trackball under my chin, very crude, but it did prove the point about head aiming being difficult. I did the same test in iL2 but found for just changing the view it worked very well!! Gerry

Gerry Aitken wrote:

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> > MadDAWG wrote: > > > > > No, because that would be silly! Do you think the cockpit view is silly > > > too!? > > > > Do I think the cockpit view is silly ? No. > > > > Do I think all this BS about which view you "should" use is silly? Yes > > > > Do I think people playing a computer game and thinking its real is silly? > > Yes > > > > Do I think people that scream for realism not wearing a helmet or firesuit > > silly ? Yes because thats what they do for real, and its all about realism > > now isn't it? > > > > MadDAWG >

Now you're just being sillier. Gerry

I agree with that staement 100% -- Tim White INTRAC Motorsports www.birds-i-view.com/intrac "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... A cheat is someone using something that others don't have easy access to IMO. What about the fov utility for GPL? Same thing IMO. Anyone can use it if they want.

I have always wondered this myself. My personal opinion is that incar drivers are in the majority and therfore, feel some right to imanate domain. Either that or deep down inside they fear a disadvantage and use the excuse of realism to hide it. My best friends all drive incar and we will never stop debating it :) -- Tim White INTRAC Motorsports www.birds-i-view.com/intrac "MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... I always find it amazing that its always the cockpit view players that are always trying to convert people that use the roof/kite cams. It seems like the Cockpit Cam Cult is trying to save the sim world from the evil roof dwellers. I never have seen Reverend Roof View preaching how the word would be a better place if everyone drove from his POV...

It's the same in N2002. You don't get more FOV with the roof cam. The cars appear to your side at the same moment in either view. The flaps don't cut off your vision either. They just give you a less "pretty' view. David G Fisher "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5gdtf$788h6$[email hidden]...

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> Now to another point, whether the roof cam gives more FOV - it does not. > Well I haven't tried this in N2002 yet, but in N4 I compared the two > views carefully, and the roof cam did not appear to increase my FOV at > all. What the roof cam does is move your eye point up and away from the > surrounding traffic enough to reduce the perspective distortion to the > point where it is manageable. This is why I think people should be > allowed to use the roof cam - it does not increase FOV, it just reduces > distortion. And as far as the roof cam allowing you to see farther up > the track, I will repeat what I said in another thread, you can look > through other people's windows when in the cockpit view, it's not that > hard, so I don't believe the roof cam has a serious or unfair advantage > here either.

Didn't realize we had moved the cockpit discussion to here until I posted some comments in the old thread a little bit ago. I'll re-post them here. I'll just add that I found a roof cam view http://www.discountdescramblers.com/nascar.html which has been altered (probably the one you were referring to) and it's a lot better, but just too far forward IMO. If shpankey fills me/us in on how to make these views (I asked him to in the sounds thread) then maybe an even better one can be made. Re-post: I'm not sure why this is so hotly debated. If the host wants the view the same for everyone, then that's what it should be I guess. I just don't see WHY they would force it. I remember reading many of the better hotlappers/drivers in GPL used a joystick and F10 view. In F1 sims, I've always used the cockpit. Seems odd any other way for some reason. Maybe it's because the real life position of the driver is so low and close to the road in F1. In N2002, I've been using cockpit view half the time, and roof view the other half. The moving cockpit helps, and the sounds are soooo much better inside. The cockpit view is just not very realistic though IMO. I think it should be able to be adjusted a little higher, as Tom P. and some others have said they could see some of the hood. The roof view in N2002 doesn't give you any more peripheral view (biggest reason why it's ok to use it IMO) other than the absence of the flaps which obstruct your view somewhat. You still see the nose of the car coming up behind you at the same moment as you do in the cockpit view. You do get a better vertical view of the track directly in front of you with the roof cam, but my times are the same in either view. In replays, I'm just as steady or unsteady holding the line at a particular track regardless of which view I'm using. I'm either just as good or just as sucky no matter what view I use. :-) David G Fisher "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Fwiw, here's a point needs to be made......at least I think so<G> Keep > seeing some post, "The cockpit view is claustrophobic" "Not like my car", > etc. > > Guys, you're not driving your car. You're driving a simulated stockcar. > Also, the view in an actual stock car IS very claustrophic. It's not an > open wheel cockpit<G> > The drivers are strapped in a literal shell, with blinders in the formof > cushions/nets on both sides of their head. Some even cut holes in this,for > a very small window to at least see something to the side. And thatdoesn't > include all the tubing, bracing, etc. that's in a real stock car, that'snot > in the sim cockpit. > > There's a reason they have spotters<G> That, and your F2 key and mirror > gives a very accurate feel for an actual stock car driver's vision IMO.Not > perfect, but not nearly as unrealistic as some believe. > > Whether some allowances could be made for pc limitations could be awhole > 'nother thread, but the cockpit view in N2002 isn't to bad, especially in > relation to side view WITHOUT the look left/right keys. If anything's > unrealistic, it's those views. > > On a side note, since it came up. Yep, there's ways to alter your roof > cam shots. N4 had one that put the driver farther forward into thecockpit. > Still in the pit, just as if you scooted the seat up towards the dash abit.

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> Personally, I don't consider it a cheat. It's available for download on > the net(though I can't remember where), and I'm sure N2002 will have the > same thing. Probably already does. I've never used it except to look at, > didn't want to take the time to get used to it, but thought it was quite > good actually. A cheat is someone using something that others don't have > easy access to IMO. What about the fov utility for GPL? Same thing IMO. > Anyone can use it if they want. > Whether this view gives an advantage, I don't think so. And with all

the > hacks done to GPL, well, you get the point<G> There's a driver in my > league who uses the roof view(or at least a long time ago, he said hedid).

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> He hasn't caused any more problems than anyone else, nor is he markedly > better than anyone else. Sometimes he wins, sometimes he doesn't do > squat<G>. Only thing I want in my league is green racing, which we have. > > Anyway, more fuel for the fire<G> > > -John > >

I haven't raced an F1 or NASCAR car at 200mph, but I have had a motocross and street motorcycle. Wearing a closed helmet and racing along at 100 mph on a thin, bumpy, loose dirt road with trees on either side, heat, rocks, jumps, severe camber, g forces, hands and feet all working at the same time, body weight shifting, etc., I still feel like I had a much better view and awareness of things than I do in most sims. That, and the fact that there's so much else about these sims which isn't realistic is why I think this debate can be a little pointless at tines. David G Fisher "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:J9Qe8.10360$9o.190800@sccrnsc02... > Hasqsau.... > > You guys who have never raced need to realize that driving a race car at > speed....in competition...is nothing like driving a street car to work.Its > as different as night and day. Driving a race car at speed....in close > contact....its like being put into a washing machine......then someonehits > the "spin cycle"....and you are off into a blur of action and reaction.You > will mostly act/react as you have trained your subconscious mind during > practice......thousands of hours of practice and race experience.....run > *you* when you are in a race car. You don't have time to "think"....andyou > don't have time to focus on anything except the line. On a road > course....in close combat racing.....you make hundreds of decisions in > tenths of a second....on every lap. Mostly.....your subconscious minddoes > all that work. Your eyes....are only part (about 1/6th part) of the tools > and support for the subconscious mind while racing. The only thing youcan > see under these conditions....with any certainty....is straight ahead down > track! Most of the turns, apexes and exits....on road courses...areblind. > You hit your exit only if you guess correctly where the apex is....and you > have no time to correct your subconscious inputs. Those of youcomplaining > about not being able to see into the turns at Sears in N2002.....wellguess > what guys.....you can't see into most of them in a real car at Searseither! >

I also think the mouse is the best way. Surprised it hasn't been done in auto sims a long time ago actually. David G Fisher "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > John Pancoast wrote: > > > > Yep. A pan feature ala flight sims would be nice. > > A mouselook like iL2, but just panning left and right and controlled > with > this http://www.headtracking.com/? > > Gerry

I agree with everything you said. David G Fisher "John Hilsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 07:36:35 -0700, "John Pancoast" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > Guys, you're not driving your car. You're driving a simulated stockcar. > >Also, the view in an actual stock car IS very claustrophic. It's not an > >open wheel cockpit<G> > > The drivers are strapped in a literal shell, with blinders in the formof > >cushions/nets on both sides of their head. Some even cut holes in this,for > >a very small window to at least see something to the side. And thatdoesn't > >include all the tubing, bracing, etc. that's in a real stock car, that'snot

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> >in the sim cockpit. > > I agree the view in a stockcar cockpit is not like it would be from a > street car, but still think the view should be better than what we > get. I think it's impossible to completely simulate a realistic view, > so in my mind the question becomes "Is it 'ok' to compensate for > *game* limitations?" I think it is - I'm not looking for God-like > omniscience on the track to get a leg up on the competition, but I > think it's entirely acceptable to overcome an artificially imposed > burden. I've never been any good from external cameras like the > chase/kite, etc and consider those to be unrealistic, always seemed > like racing a remote controlled car to me. But I've always thought of > bumper/roof/cockpit as the 'simulation' views, with different amounts > of screen noise and a slightly different feel to the balance of the > car. > > So what do you guys do if you consider a game to have a crummy cockpit > view? Bite the bullet and live with it or quit playing? I'm not > surprised the hardcore simmers 'look down' on some of the > out-of-cockpit views but I am kind of surprised there doesn't seem to > be any option to overcome a perceived limitation. I guess perceived > is the keyword there :) I can't help but think of a guy working with > one arm tied behind his back because he thinks 'it's the way the pros > do it'. Why make it harder than it actually is just because the > developer didn't - or can't - do a very good job simulating the view > aspect? >

>"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote > On a side note, since it came up. Yep, there's ways to alter your roof > cam shots. N4 had one that put the driver farther forward into thecockpit. Wasn't that an in-car, I mean in-car "game engine" view. You would not see a full 3d cockpit, just the inside of the car within the game engine (it's crudely modelled). You could still superimpose the gauges. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote > one of the CCC (Cockpit Cam Cult) had to chime in > on how it was wrong to use the roof view. Then I post a link giving himwhat > he asked for after a couple posts said that it wasn't possible. So Iproved > them wrong. Then what happens? Again along comes the CCC again saying the > only thing I proved was how wrong it was to use the roof cam. Get over it > people not everyone agrees with you. I guess that's me, the CCC guy <G>. Anyway, we need a mandatory Cockpit view vs. others thread each year in r.a.s. It's just obligatory! -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Lol, no kidding. Besides Maddawg, Schooner's comment of "Driving with the cockpit view is dangerous" kind of falls into the fuel on the fire heading, don't you think? :) -John "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:SEVe8.14073$[email hidden]...

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> >"MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote > > one of the CCC (Cockpit Cam Cult) had to chime in > > on how it was wrong to use the roof view. Then I post a link giving him > what > > he asked for after a couple posts said that it wasn't possible. So I > proved > > them wrong. Then what happens? Again along comes the CCC again saying

the > > only thing I proved was how wrong it was to use the roof cam. Get overit

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> > people not everyone agrees with you. > > > I guess that's me, the CCC guy <G>. > > > Anyway, we need a mandatory Cockpit view vs. others thread each year in > r.a.s. It's just obligatory! > > > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

Good points. -John "John Hilsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 07:36:35 -0700, "John Pancoast" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > Guys, you're not driving your car. You're driving a simulated stockcar. > >Also, the view in an actual stock car IS very claustrophic. It's not an > >open wheel cockpit<G> > > The drivers are strapped in a literal shell, with blinders in the formof > >cushions/nets on both sides of their head. Some even cut holes in this,for > >a very small window to at least see something to the side. And thatdoesn't > >include all the tubing, bracing, etc. that's in a real stock car, that'snot

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> >in the sim cockpit. > > I agree the view in a stockcar cockpit is not like it would be from a > street car, but still think the view should be better than what we > get. I think it's impossible to completely simulate a realistic view, > so in my mind the question becomes "Is it 'ok' to compensate for > *game* limitations?" I think it is - I'm not looking for God-like > omniscience on the track to get a leg up on the competition, but I > think it's entirely acceptable to overcome an artificially imposed > burden. I've never been any good from external cameras like the > chase/kite, etc and consider those to be unrealistic, always seemed > like racing a remote controlled car to me. But I've always thought of > bumper/roof/cockpit as the 'simulation' views, with different amounts > of screen noise and a slightly different feel to the balance of the > car. > > So what do you guys do if you consider a game to have a crummy cockpit > view? Bite the bullet and live with it or quit playing? I'm not > surprised the hardcore simmers 'look down' on some of the > out-of-cockpit views but I am kind of surprised there doesn't seem to > be any option to overcome a perceived limitation. I guess perceived > is the keyword there :) I can't help but think of a guy working with > one arm tied behind his back because he thinks 'it's the way the pros > do it'. Why make it harder than it actually is just because the > developer didn't - or can't - do a very good job simulating the view > aspect? > > > > Whether some allowances could be made for pc limitations could be a

whole

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> >'nother thread, but the cockpit view in N2002 isn't to bad, especially in > >relation to side view WITHOUT the look left/right keys. If anything's > >unrealistic, it's those views. > > I agree, I would like to be able to glance left/right but it seems > like I always bounce the wall when I try to sneak a peek at it. I > don't think the cockpit in 2002 is perfect, but it's an improvement > beyond words for me - N4 was just terrible. > > > > Anyway, more fuel for the fire<G> > > <throws a match!> > >

Not sure. The one I'm thinking about was in-car. I only spent about five minutes with it. Let me find the link........... -John "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:tCVe8.14059$[email hidden]... > >"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote > > On a side note, since it came up. Yep, there's ways to alter yourroof > > cam shots. N4 had one that put the driver farther forward into the > cockpit. > > > Wasn't that an in-car, I mean in-car "game engine" view. You would notsee

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> a full 3d cockpit, just the inside of the car within the game engine (it's > crudely modelled). You could still superimpose the gauges. > > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

It's here I think. http://www.discountdescramblers.com/nascar.html You have to download the zip, and there's a pic inside that shows you the view. David G Fisher "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Not sure. The one I'm thinking about was in-car. I only spent aboutfive

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> minutes with it. Let me find the link........... > > -John > > > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:tCVe8.14059$[email hidden]... > > >"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > On a side note, since it came up. Yep, there's ways to alter your > roof > > > cam shots. N4 had one that put the driver farther forward into the > > cockpit. > > > > > > Wasn't that an in-car, I mean in-car "game engine" view. You would not > see > > a full 3d cockpit, just the inside of the car within the game engine

(it's

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> > crudely modelled). You could still superimpose the gauges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > > > > > > >

Yep that's it, thanks. Same thing by same guy was available for N4. -John "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:TKWe8.69545$[email hidden]...

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> It's here I think. > > http://www.discountdescramblers.com/nascar.html You have to download the > zip, and there's a pic inside that shows you the view. > > > David G Fisher > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Not sure. The one I'm thinking about was in-car. I only spent about > five > > minutes with it. Let me find the link........... > > > > -John > > > > > > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:tCVe8.14059$[email hidden]... > > > >"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > > On a side note, since it came up. Yep, there's ways to alter your > > roof > > > > cam shots. N4 had one that put the driver farther forward into the > > > cockpit. > > > > > > > > > Wasn't that an in-car, I mean in-car "game engine" view. You would

not

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> > see > > > a full 3d cockpit, just the inside of the car within the game engine > (it's > > > crudely modelled). You could still superimpose the gauges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > > > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > > > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > > > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I'd like to take the height of that view, and move it back. I have no idea how though. Anyone? David G FIsher "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Yep that's it, thanks. Same thing by same guy was available for N4. > > -John > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:TKWe8.69545$[email hidden]... > > It's here I think. > > > > http://www.discountdescramblers.com/nascar.html You have to download the > > zip, and there's a pic inside that shows you the view. > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Not sure. The one I'm thinking about was in-car. I only spent

about

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> > five > > > minutes with it. Let me find the link........... > > > > > > -John > > > > > > > > > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:tCVe8.14059$[email hidden]... > > > > >"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > > > On a side note, since it came up. Yep, there's ways to alter

your > > > roof > > > > > cam shots. N4 had one that put the driver farther forward intothe

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> > > > cockpit. > > > > > > > > > > > > Wasn't that an in-car, I mean in-car "game engine" view. You would > not > > > see > > > > a full 3d cockpit, just the inside of the car within the game engine > > (it's > > > > crudely modelled). You could still superimpose the gauges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > > > > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > > > > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > > > > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I think there are camera editors available at http://www.theuspits.com/ in the Stock Car section. "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QcYe8.69914$[email hidden]... > I'd like to take the height of that view, and move it back. I have noidea

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> how though. Anyone? > > David G FIsher > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Yep that's it, thanks. Same thing by same guy was available for

N4.

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> > > > -John > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:TKWe8.69545$[email hidden]... > > > It's here I think. > > > > > > http://www.discountdescramblers.com/nascar.html You have to

download the

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> > > zip, and there's a pic inside that shows you the view. > > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Not sure. The one I'm thinking about was in-car. I only

spent

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> about > > > five > > > > minutes with it. Let me find the link........... > > > > > > > > -John > > > > > > > > > > > > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:tCVe8.14059$[email hidden]... > > > > > >"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > > > > On a side note, since it came up. Yep, there's ways to

alter > your > > > > roof > > > > > > cam shots. N4 had one that put the driver farther forwardinto > the > > > > > cockpit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wasn't that an in-car, I mean in-car "game engine" view. Youwould > > not > > > > see > > > > > a full 3d cockpit, just the inside of the car within the gameengine

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> > > (it's > > > > > crudely modelled). You could still superimpose the gauges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > > > > > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > > > > > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato

Dominguez

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> > > > > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

MadDAWG wrote: > > Disclaimer : This whole post was not aimed at one individual, but at the > whole Cockpit Cam Cult. <DiNero voice> You talking to *me*? </voice> :-) -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

>"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote > Not sure. The one I'm thinking about was in-car. I only spent aboutfive > minutes with it. Let me find the link........... Yep after finding the link it's what I wrote, indeed thanks John. It's the good old carcam software that I used for the N4 demo. That "dash" cockpit doesn't model the real 3d cockpit, so you won't have any motion at all. The 3d cockpit won't do anything, as it's a fixed cam on the roof, changed in XYZ position. It's "bolted" on the car, so you won't feel any 3d effect like in the cockpit. You also won't see the cockpit, except for the crude one inside the car. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

MadDAWG wrote:

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> > > But, I am also aware that I savour these aspects because I want a > simulation > > as real as possible, and am willing to work my way towards the goal. > > I'll ask this again in the quest to keep it as "real" as possible, do you > wear a helmet and firesuit or play in a 120 degree environment?

Poor logic at work here. Your kite drivers are not driving like this either. So while we're both racing in "unrealistic" conditions, at least the CCC is in a realistic seating location. Check. -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

ymenard wrote: > > Anyway, we need a mandatory Cockpit view vs. others thread each year in > r.a.s. It's just obligatory! Not to mention the right vs. left foot braking debate. <g> -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

Yes, now that you mention it, that's what I remember not liking about it; no 3d. "Bolted" describes it well. -John "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:f3Ze8.15036$[email hidden]...

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> >"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Not sure. The one I'm thinking about was in-car. I only spent about > five > > minutes with it. Let me find the link........... > > > Yep after finding the link it's what I wrote, indeed thanks John. It's

the > good old carcam software that I used for the N4 demo. That "dash" cockpit > doesn't model the real 3d cockpit, so you won't have any motion at all.The

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> 3d cockpit won't do anything, as it's a fixed cam on the roof, changed in > XYZ position. It's "bolted" on the car, so you won't feel any 3d effect > like in the cockpit. > > You also won't see the cockpit, except for the crude one inside the car. > > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

Blake...did you run on a road course in one? I wonder how long ago you drove a cup car? Add the Hans device...and those side seat/head supports most guys are running now.....I wonder if those "slight looks left and right" are even there any more? And, did it really help you to have them? I'd bet not...really. Usually....when in "need" to look left or right off the windscreen....its because my ass is in a jam trying to catch a spin.....and/or see who is about to tag me real hard. You know? Towards the end of running my GT3 Porsche.....all I could do was barely roll my eyes up to look at my "three-panel"....and sweep the gauges. We stiffened the car up so much I had to constrain myself pretty tightly in the driver pod. The Cup cars have increased in "chassis stiffness" something like 30% just in the last two years (part of the blame for the lethal accident increase....at least that's postulated by many in the know). If I had a smooth rolling pan left/right....say about 30 degrees....I'd have a *need* to use too little....I'd probably not remember where the dang buttons where for it.....when I did want it.....then the "event" necessitating its use....would long be over. You know? At Sears in April testing.......I was talking to John Andretti while he was fueling over at the 76 pumps. He was going to roll out onto the track...so was fully suited and belted. In order for him to see me (make eye contact)....I had to stand forward of the windscreen...about 45 degrees off the windshield support.....so he we could talk. I remember thinking how tightly constrained his head was......and comparing it to how tightly constrained my GT3 car was (which I thought was a lot...but nearly as tight as JA's head was constrained). Interesting stuff in this thread....... Tom "Blake" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:mMPe8.226680$[email hidden]... > That is the one thing missing in this Gameulation <G> if those to "looks"would move smoothly instead of jump and look that would > improve the incar 100% to me and Im an Incar guy.. I've driven a realWinston Cup car on seveal occasion (used to work for a winston > cup team) And thats all thats missing is being able to turn your head alittle each way. > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]... > | > | Whether some allowances could be made for pc limitations could be awhole > | 'nother thread, but the cockpit view in N2002 isn't to bad, especiallyin > | relation to side view WITHOUT the look left/right keys. If anything's > | unrealistic, it's those views. > | > >

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:c%Ne8.365$mG.1829@rwcrnsc54... > Good post, John. Its a good "summary" of the issues and spot on for the > issue of how much "view" a driver has from a real WC car. > > However, its a tad too long....watch out, you'll be accused of being like > "Pabst" if you don't knock it off.....along with everything you writebeing > "off-topic" according to the "on-topic/off-topic" police, headed up by Mr. > Solheim. ....lol... > > TP A "Pabst" post? He would... have to add... a few ellipses... for... emphasis. :-) Stephen

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:J9Qe8.10360$9o.190800@sccrnsc02... > Hasqsau.... > >> > You need two friends to help you with this. First, put on a race helmetor > motorcycle helmet if you can borrow one. Second....sit down in your race > rig at home....even if its at a desk....it doesn't matter. Use yournormal > wheel and screen position. The only difference, you have a helmet on. > Now...have your first friend take two things that vibrate (sanders work > great for this) and put on on each side of your helmet.... 100 grit or 400 grit? Man, remind me never to lend you a helmet :-) Stephen

I prefer the cockpit view as that is the simulation. but I enjoy the feeling of speed of the bumper full screen view, but its not real. It would be good if the sense of speed in the cockpit was better IMO, i.e. the speed that the graphics come at you

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:09:13 GMT, Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> wrote: ><DiNero voice> >You talking to *me*? ></voice> DiNero he says.. shame on you Fester! Andre

"Tony Dale" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:dx0f8.426$S%[email hidden]... > I prefer the cockpit view as that is the simulation. but I enjoy thefeeling > of speed of the bumper full screen view, but its not real. > It would be good if the sense of speed in the cockpit was better IMO, i.e. > the speed that the graphics come at you > I wonder what's missing? In-car camera shots from NASCAR races look scary-fast. In-car in the sims isn't quite the same. In car in F1-2001, on the other hand, is fast. Put me down as a 90% cockpit driver (GPL, F1-2001 and any tin-tops) with the occasional drive from the T-cam when I want to watch Montoya's shiny noggin' wobble around. On the other hand, I don't really care what the other guys are using in online or lan races. I may see better around me in GPL from F10, but the cockpit view is worth a second a lap or more in my lap times. Also, it seems to even out that the occasional advantage someone has with a better overview from outside the cockpit is negated by the occasional disadvantage of me making an honest mistake due to blind spots. Then again, I mostly race GPL, and it seems most of my passing / being passed involves fairly deliberate and quickly executed moves. In NASCAR, with side-by-side running, I can start to see the advantages of having the better view, and *if* I was really serious about my online racing, then I would want to put everyone on a level playing field. Stephen

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:35:49 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I haven't raced an F1 or NASCAR car at 200mph, but I have had a motocross >and street motorcycle. Wearing a closed helmet and racing along at 100 mph >on a thin, bumpy, loose dirt road with trees on either side, heat, rocks, >jumps, severe camber, g forces, hands and feet all working at the same time, >body weight shifting, etc., I still feel like I had a much better view and >awareness of things than I do in most sims. That, and the fact that there's >so much else about these sims which isn't realistic is why I think this >debate can be a little pointless at tines.

I've a motorbike aswell, and with 100 Mph you're indeed more aware as you're in a sim. However, if your bike can manage 160 Mph (har har har), you suddenly experience tunnelvision. And that's more close to the view in a sim, imo. Remco

> Poor logic at work here. Your kite drivers are not driving like this > either. Thats my whole point, its seems that us kite flyers don't have the "keep it real" hang ups of the CCC. We don't sit in here trying to convert people to the "dark side". For the most part we just get over yourself because we are happy our way so move on.. MadDAWG

I get the feeling that if that *is* the case, he's not the only one... "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:m_Oe8.106$_%[email hidden]...

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> You never know when to stop do you Tom? > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:c%Ne8.365$mG.1829@rwcrnsc54... > > Good post, John. Its a good "summary" of the issues and spot on for the > > issue of how much "view" a driver has from a real WC car. > > > > However, its a tad too long....watch out, you'll be accused of being

like > > "Pabst" if you don't knock it off.....along with everything you write > being > > "off-topic" according to the "on-topic/off-topic" police, headed up byMr.

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> > Solheim. ....lol... > > > > TP > > > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Fwiw, here's a point needs to be made......at least I think so<G> > Keep > > > seeing some post, "The cockpit view is claustrophobic" "Not like my > car", > > > etc. > > > > > > Guys, you're not driving your car. You're driving a simulated stock > > car. > > > Also, the view in an actual stock car IS very claustrophic. It's not

an > > > open wheel cockpit<G> > > > The drivers are strapped in a literal shell, with blinders in theform > > of > > > cushions/nets on both sides of their head. Some even cut holes inthis, > > for > > > a very small window to at least see something to the side. And that > > doesn't > > > include all the tubing, bracing, etc. that's in a real stock car,that's > > not > > > in the sim cockpit. > > > > > > There's a reason they have spotters<G> That, and your F2 key and > mirror > > > gives a very accurate feel for an actual stock car driver's visionIMO.

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> > Not > > > perfect, but not nearly as unrealistic as some believe. > > > > > > Whether some allowances could be made for pc limitations could be a > > whole > > > 'nother thread, but the cockpit view in N2002 isn't to bad, especially > in > > > relation to side view WITHOUT the look left/right keys. If anything's > > > unrealistic, it's those views. > > > > > > On a side note, since it came up. Yep, there's ways to alter your > roof > > > cam shots. N4 had one that put the driver farther forward into the > > cockpit. > > > Still in the pit, just as if you scooted the seat up towards the dash

a > > bit. > > > Personally, I don't consider it a cheat. It's available fordownload > on > > > the net(though I can't remember where), and I'm sure N2002 will havethe > > > same thing. Probably already does. I've never used it except to look > at, > > > didn't want to take the time to get used to it, but thought it wasquite > > > good actually. A cheat is someone using something that others don't > have > > > easy access to IMO. What about the fov utility for GPL? Same thing > IMO. > > > Anyone can use it if they want. > > > Whether this view gives an advantage, I don't think so. And withall > > the > > > hacks done to GPL, well, you get the point<G> There's a driver in my > > > league who uses the roof view(or at least a long time ago, he said he > > did). > > > He hasn't caused any more problems than anyone else, nor is hemarkedly

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> > > better than anyone else. Sometimes he wins, sometimes he doesn't do > > > squat<G>. Only thing I want in my league is green racing, which we > have. > > > > > > Anyway, more fuel for the fire<G> > > > > > > -John > > > > > > > > > > > >

In article <3c7c8ff0$[email hidden]>, "Stephen F." <[email hidden]> writes: >A "Pabst" post? He would... have to add... a few ellipses... for... >emphasis. He's from the William Shatner school of expression.<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:32:29 GMT, Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>ymenard wrote: >> >> Anyway, we need a mandatory Cockpit view vs. others thread each year in >> r.a.s. It's just obligatory! > > >Not to mention the right vs. left foot braking debate. <g>

What debate? There isn't any debate. God gave us two feet. One for throttle, one for brake. It isn't a very complicated issue and anyone who brakes with their right foot is going against the will of God and is going to hell! It's really a very simple Black and White issue. KFG

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:07:37 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Hasqsau.... > >The same "distortion" exists when you are in a real race car....especially a >closed cockpit race car. Cars passing you on either right or left...close >in....appear exactly the same in a real race car as they do in N2002 at >least......and in F1-2002 (IMHO). I can "tell you this"....but not prove it >to you without you climbing into a real race car and seeing it for yourself. >It has to do with your restricted peripheral vision...and the fact that your >"racing eyes" are focused far down track....yet you can see/sense a car >pulling up along side you....and passing you only peripherally. But...its >hard to tell exactly how close the car is....or where its body starts and >stops....because you are not focusing on it....you are focusing on the track >200 yards ahead of you. Also, engine/track surface vibration makes your >eyes see mostly blur....in close up detail and you can't afford the time to >refocus your eyes on close objects...then back down track. So, your >peripheral vision is also quite out of focus in a race car as well as >distorted. You can't see "detail" on your dash either. You know which >gauge is which...and you can roughly see where the needle is generally >pointing....in about the 1/10th of one blurry second you have to sweep your >gauges....then mirror...then eyes back down track. The adjustment of your >iris to the bright light down track...then the dark light inside the >car....is not fast enough. Your dash vision is virtually useless while >racing.

I've made this point here a few times over the years. The new dashes for GPL are damned pretty, and I'm not giving mine up, but the default dash is actually far more realistic in terms of * what you would actually see in a race car.* The mirrors are * totally* unrealistic. But again, I'm not giving mine up.

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> >You guys who have never raced need to realize that driving a race car at >speed....in competition...is nothing like driving a street car to work. Its >as different as night and day. Driving a race car at speed....in close >contact....its like being put into a washing machine......then someone hits >the "spin cycle"....and you are off into a blur of action and reaction. You >will mostly act/react as you have trained your subconscious mind during >practice......thousands of hours of practice and race experience.....run >*you* when you are in a race car. You don't have time to "think"....and you >don't have time to focus on anything except the line. On a road

Except for the real geniuses. People like Jackie Stewart always seemed to have as much time to think as they needed. I think it's the primary advantage people at that level have.

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>course....in close combat racing.....you make hundreds of decisions in >tenths of a second....on every lap. Mostly.....your subconscious mind does >all that work. Your eyes....are only part (about 1/6th part) of the tools >and support for the subconscious mind while racing. The only thing you can >see under these conditions....with any certainty....is straight ahead down >track! Most of the turns, apexes and exits....on road courses...are blind. >You hit your exit only if you guess correctly where the apex is....and you >have no time to correct your subconscious inputs. Those of you complaining >about not being able to see into the turns at Sears in N2002.....well guess >what guys.....you can't see into most of them in a real car at Sears either! > >You want to try and simulate what its like in a real race car.....here's >something fun to try....I've done this and it works pretty well: > >You need two friends to help you with this. First, put on a race helmet or >motorcycle helmet if you can borrow one. Second....sit down in your race >rig at home....even if its at a desk....it doesn't matter. Use your normal >wheel and screen position. The only difference, you have a helmet on. >Now...have your first friend take two things that vibrate (sanders work >great for this) and put on on each side of your helmet....while also holding >your helmet virtually straight ahead (you can turn your eyes.....but not >your head except within the helmet only. Have the other friend grab your >helmet at the top...and side (using the front lobe of the helmet for one >hand and the back or bottom back with the other). His job is to shake your >helmet up and down and side to side.....get him to try to match what your >race car is doing on the track (run Sears....it works great for this >experiment). He should also slap your helmet hard about 6 times a minute. >Now...turn your sound up to around 100 db's if your sound system can handle >it. Go run some laps with the AI at Sears...and your two buddies vibrating >your head and slamming it around. That will be a lot more like what its >like to "race" in a real race car. I'd be interested in comments from any >of you who try this experiment. Its fun.....and it will take a little >practice on the part of your buddies....but you'll get actually very good at >doing this. Switch around....all three can give a go at the wheel with >this. > >Tom

You left out one guy. He's the one who stands behind you with a baseball bat and hits you across the shoulders as hard as he can whenever you have an off. I'll bet VROC races at Monza would be very, VERY different if every driver were required to have one of these guys behind them. Mark Twain wrote a hilarious essay on learning to ride a bicycle. One of the things he noted was the great motivator to learning pain is, and posited that the biggest problem with learning German was that it didn't hurt when you made a mistake.

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> >PS: Some of you guys who race....am I pretty accurate about this or what? >Let's hear from you....especially some of you guys who dirt track race - >Sprint cars are 10 times worse than what I've described above. If you want >to try the above experiment...but simulate racing a Sprint car: Use two car >buffers instead of sanders....and add a third friend....whose job it is to >slug you in the sternum and slug you in the middle of your back....about as >hard as he can....about 10 times every minute! Have fun racing! Let us all >know how many days it takes for your body to recover from about a half hour >of this treatment.....lol.... > >

After Gilles V's first F1 race he was a limp rag, and amazed at how poor his physical fitness was compared to that needed to compete in a GP. And Gilles was a "seasoned" race driver. KFG

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:40:34 GMT, "Blake" <[email hidden]> wrote: >That is the one thing missing in this Gameulation <G> if those to "looks" would move smoothly instead of jump and look that would >improve the incar 100% to me and Im an Incar guy.. I've driven a real Winston Cup car on seveal occasion (used to work for a winston >cup team) And thats all thats missing is being able to turn your head a little each way. > Bingo! I drive in cockpit view, but I never use the look right/left buttons. The discontinuity of view is too disorienting. The view should PAN to the right/left, just as a head would turn. By the way, I like the "Gameulation(tm)," it's a winner and perfectly descriptive. KFG

"Kevin F. Gavitt" wrote:

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> > On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:40:34 GMT, "Blake" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >That is the one thing missing in this Gameulation <G> if those to "looks" would move smoothly instead of jump and look that would > >improve the incar 100% to me and Im an Incar guy.. I've driven a real Winston Cup car on seveal occasion (used to work for a winston > >cup team) And thats all thats missing is being able to turn your head a little each way. > > > > Bingo! I drive in cockpit view, but I never use the look right/left > buttons. The discontinuity of view is too disorienting. The view > should PAN to the right/left, just as a head would turn.

If you were going three wide doing 170, would slowly pan your head around or give give a quick glance? N4, N2002 and GPL all simulate a quick glance. That's, turn your gaze left or right for only a moment and then look straight ahead again. The human brain greys out the motion blurred part of what you see when you turn your head and only registers a snap shot of the direction you glanced at, then greys out the motion blurred part as you turn your head back forward again. I saw that on Open University :) Try it yourself, just look 45 degrees left or right for a split second. You may even find that you do an involuntary blink which cuts out the motion blur also. All the real action's in front or to the side anyway, so why dither in-between? Gerry

"Kevin F. Gavitt" wrote:

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> > On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:32:29 GMT, Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >ymenard wrote: > >> > >> Anyway, we need a mandatory Cockpit view vs. others thread each year in > >> r.a.s. It's just obligatory! > > > > > >Not to mention the right vs. left foot braking debate. <g> > > What debate? There isn't any debate. God gave us two feet. One for > throttle, one for brake. It isn't a very complicated issue and anyone > who brakes with their right foot is going against the will of God and > is going to hell! > > It's really a very simple Black and White issue.

As a right foot braker, I better check with Eldred on the price of skates for Hell. :-) -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

"Kevin F. Gavitt" wrote: > > Bingo! I drive in cockpit view, but I never use the look right/left > buttons. The discontinuity of view is too disorienting. The view > should PAN to the right/left, just as a head would turn. In a way, a panning view sounds good. But the added time delay may cause you to miss something drastic happening in front of you. I'm still undecided where I stand, although I still maintain that with a decent sense of your surroundings you'll always have a pretty good idea where others are in relation to your car. -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG