"6/10 Rule"

Hi guys.....this might be a bit of a long post, but its germane to the "cockpit verses roof cam" thread.....and might be of some interest: **The PR 6/10 Rule** We have a rule around here (at PR) we call the "6/10 Rule"......this has evolved over the several years we have been actively trying to "bridge the gap" between real-life racing and sim racing (primarily with real-life drivers we encounter through our activities at nearby Sears Point raceway). It goes like this: "When driving a race car, let's arbitrarily say there's something like ten things......sensory inputs and combinations thereof......that a real race car driver gets from the car/track/speed....etc. In one of our simulators, the *6/10 Rule* says, "If you give the sim driver's brain 5 or 6 of those things very realistically....his/her brain will start filling in the rest of the missing items." I won't go into all the reasons and "proof" we have established here over the last three years.....but we are confident this "rule" exists and I can state many examples of essential proof that it does. Let me just give you one...."How come I get sick running Bristol....the high banks don't put G-force on my brain in the sim.....but I get sick and have actually thrown up before...in my sim seat? My brain is "simulating" some of the G-force for me.....even though it doesn't really exist in my sim seat. If you can accept this "rule" as reality.....then it brings up an interesting prospect! It means its easier to fool Jeff Gordon's brain in one of our cockpits....than a person who has never driven a race car. In fact, I believe that's just the opposite of what most people would think. At least, if we go by the thousands of times we've been asked at some of our sim displays at tracks and conventions, "Yeah, but is this kind of racing simulator realistic? Would a real race car driver think this is realistic?" Actually, real race car drivers are more readily "engaged" by a good simulator than are non-race car drivers....because their brains are more tuned in.....they are used to being in a race car and if we give them 5 or 6 inputs really well....they quickly fill in the others in an even more engaging way..... than does a brain that's never been in a real race car. Here's a list of some *known* drivers we've had in our simulators over the last three years. We've had hundreds more than these....but I'm only listing the driver's most of you would know. I am not "name dropping"....if I listed these drivers and they indeed had never been in one of our simulators....then that would be "name dropping".....I hope some of you are clear about that? I have either actually run with these guys side by side on a dual simulator LAN connection, or stood at their side and watched them run some one else...or they were running solo. Every one of these guys got out of our sim with the same tell-tale body conditions that you see when they climb out of a real race car (on TV). Their heart rates were elevated, they were flushed, sweating and weak-kneed.....as they are when climbing out of a real race car. The following drivers ran for more than a half hour in our simulator at various places and times....in some cases, several hours over multiple sessions: Jeff Gordon, Robby Gordon, Randy Pobst, Bobby LaBonte, Dale-Jr., Ward Burton, Steve Park, Alan McNish, Ron Hornaday, Boris Said.....to name a few that most of you should know. As a group.....our "questions" about how engaged they were answered something like, "It was a blast...and I had the true sense that I was in my race car (or in a race car)." Not one of them thought it was stupid...or too gamey! By the way, one of the "applications" of the *6/10 Rule* is this: If you give the brain one item out of the ten....in an **unrealistic way**.....then it will discount all the others and not "engage" the sim driver's brain at all. This is why we are very careful not to use things such as force feedback in our sims, or attempt to simulate G-force in any way. Its not that force feed back can't be accurately simulated through the controls (say...the movement of the wheel when running over a curb)....its that it can't be timed accurately and realistically enough with the "screen event"......we keep hoping it will improve over time but so far, it has not. FF is fun....but as currently implemented in every race sim we know of....its not realistic enough...... so we don't use it in our simulator/cockpits. The same thing would apply with the roof cam verses cockpit view discussed below. One engages you because its more realistic to the brain....the other does not (or not at the same level)...and causes all the others to be discounted by the brain. Most of what we do in our simulators can be done by all of you with your rigs at home. Its not earth-shattering stuff...its just carefully orchestrated combinations of site, sound, feel and environment. I'd be glad to discuss with you how/what we use....but it should probably be in a separate thread.....if someone is interested. Tom

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]... > Here's a list of some *known* drivers we've had in our simulators over the > last three years. We've had hundreds more than these....but I'm only > listing the driver's most of you would know. I am not "name dropping"....if > I listed these drivers and they indeed had never been in one of our > simulators....then that would be "name dropping".....I hope some of you are > clear about that? No, because you are dead wrong ... again! name-drop (nmdrp) intr.v. name-�dropped, name-�drop�ping, name-�drops To mention casually the names of illustrious or famous people in order to imply that one is on familiar terms with them, intended as a means of self-promotion. Source: The American Heritage� Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition /Jens, surpriced at the stupidity exhibited by Pabst.

Real race car drivers have the advantage of having "sensed"(i.e, felt g forces, steering wheel tension, sensation of speed etc) the environment and so I suppose you're right about them having their disbelief suspended while in a sim cockpit. So, how come, in the sim world, non race car drivers are by far the better sim racers? Not being contentious, just curious . I'm all for bridging the gap between real racers and sim racers. However, those real racers do indeed have a long way to go to catch up with the kids when it comes to sim racing. ;) Gavel

OK.. now let's take this into another debate. How does this effect or get applied to the sim racers where "having" a brain is debateable? =) Scott PA-Scott "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]... > Hi guys.....this might be a bit of a long post, but its germane to the > "cockpit verses roof cam" thread.....and might be of some interest:

Hehe, have to agree with you there. That was an excellent example of name dropping I must say. "Jens H. Kruuse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5OPe8.10914$[email hidden]... > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse > news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]... > > Here's a list of some *known* drivers we've had in our simulators overthe > > last three years. We've had hundreds more than these....but I'm only > > listing the driver's most of you would know. I am not "namedropping"....if > > I listed these drivers and they indeed had never been in one of our > > simulators....then that would be "name dropping".....I hope some of youare

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> > clear about that? > > No, because you are dead wrong ... again! > > name-drop (nmdrp) > intr.v. name-�dropped, name-�drop�ping, name-�drops > To mention casually the names of illustrious or famous people in order to

imply > that one is on familiar terms with them, intended as a means ofself-promotion.

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> > Source: The American Heritage� Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth > Edition > > /Jens, surpriced at the stupidity exhibited by Pabst. > >

Tom Pabst wrote:

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> By the way, one of the "applications" of the *6/10 Rule* is this: If you > give the brain one item out of the ten....in an **unrealistic way**.....then > it will discount all the others and not "engage" the sim driver's brain at > all. This is why we are very careful not to use things such as force > feedback in our sims, or attempt to simulate G-force in any way. Its not > that force feed back can't be accurately simulated through the controls > (say...the movement of the wheel when running over a curb)....its that it > can't be timed accurately and realistically enough with the "screen > event"......we keep hoping it will improve over time but so far, it has not. > FF is fun....but as currently implemented in every race sim we know > of....its not realistic enough...... so we don't use it in our > simulator/cockpits.

I did a FF test: Took a friend who'd raced saloons, but had never tried computer sims, had him dive GPL with FF off for 20 mins...he loved it btw, stopped him for a few seconds and turned FF on. Of course I didn't tell him I'd changed anything :). Then, just asked him if anything felt different. He said straight away the steering was different, BETTER! He said he could now feel the grip levels. He said it felt like driving on ice in the first session. Not really proof of anything, I'd like to have done more tests, but I'd run out of people like him <G>. So I tried it with other non real racing, non sim racing friends and they ALL said the same thing. NB: No women were involved in these tests. One did make the tea though <G>. > Most of what we do in our simulators can be done by all of you with your > rigs at home. Its not earth-shattering stuff...its just carefully > orchestrated combinations of site, sound, feel and environment. I'd be glad > to discuss with you how/what we use....but it should probably be in a > separate thread.....if someone is interested. Go for it! Gerry

Again it's an issue of personal taste I think. I use FF but set to a very low level so that it just gives enough of a feel to what the car is doing and helps properly center the wheel based on the setup, instead of where the wheel wants to center based on the springs inside it. I can run similar laptimes either way, I just like the feel of the FF better. "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Tom Pabst wrote: > > > By the way, one of the "applications" of the *6/10 Rule* is this: Ifyou > > give the brain one item out of the ten....in an **unrealisticway**.....then > > it will discount all the others and not "engage" the sim driver's brainat > > all. This is why we are very careful not to use things such as force > > feedback in our sims, or attempt to simulate G-force in any way. Itsnot > > that force feed back can't be accurately simulated through the controls > > (say...the movement of the wheel when running over a curb)....its thatit > > can't be timed accurately and realistically enough with the "screen > > event"......we keep hoping it will improve over time but so far, it hasnot.

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> > FF is fun....but as currently implemented in every race sim we know > > of....its not realistic enough...... so we don't use it in our > > simulator/cockpits. > > I did a FF test: Took a friend who'd raced saloons, but had never tried > computer sims, had him dive GPL with FF off for 20 mins...he loved it > btw, stopped him for a few seconds and turned FF on. Of course I didn't > tell him I'd changed anything :). Then, just asked him if anything felt > different. He said straight away the steering was different, BETTER! He > said he could now feel the grip levels. He said it felt like driving on > ice in the first session. > > Not really proof of anything, I'd like to have done more tests, but I'd > run out of people like him <G>. So I tried it with other non real > racing, non sim racing friends and they ALL said the same thing. > > NB: No women were involved in these tests. One did make the tea though > <G>. > > > Most of what we do in our simulators can be done by all of you with your > > rigs at home. Its not earth-shattering stuff...its just carefully > > orchestrated combinations of site, sound, feel and environment. I'd be

glad > > to discuss with you how/what we use....but it should probably be in a > > separate thread.....if someone is interested. > > Go for it! > > Gerry

The part of their brain that fills in the missing information defaults to images of sheep.<g> Gavel "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hRPe8.8441$[email hidden]... > OK.. now let's take this into another debate. How does this effect orget

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> applied to the sim racers where "having" a brain is debateable? =) > > Scott > PA-Scott > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]... > > Hi guys.....this might be a bit of a long post, but its germane to the > > "cockpit verses roof cam" thread.....and might be of some interest: > > >

OK.. that explains Dustin, Jure, Ramsden, and Base..... ;) Scott PA-Scott "Gavel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> The part of their brain that fills in the missing information defaults to > images of sheep.<g> > Gavel > "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:hRPe8.8441$[email hidden]... > > OK.. now let's take this into another debate. How does this effect or > get > > applied to the sim racers where "having" a brain is debateable? =) > > > > Scott > > PA-Scott > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]... > > > Hi guys.....this might be a bit of a long post, but its germane to the > > > "cockpit verses roof cam" thread.....and might be of some interest: > > > > > > > >

Jens... I did *not* mention their names casually....I mentioned them *specifically.* I also said I'd raced with them or closely observed them racing in our sims.....not that I was friends with them or knew them in any other capacity other than they drove in our simulators. The use of their names was specific and germane to the topic I was writing about. I agree with your definition of "name dropping" but not with your application of it in this case. Tom "Jens H. Kruuse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5OPe8.10914$[email hidden]... > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse > news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]... > > Here's a list of some *known* drivers we've had in our simulators overthe > > last three years. We've had hundreds more than these....but I'm only > > listing the driver's most of you would know. I am not "namedropping"....if > > I listed these drivers and they indeed had never been in one of our > > simulators....then that would be "name dropping".....I hope some of youare

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> > clear about that? > > No, because you are dead wrong ... again! > > name-drop (nmdrp) > intr.v. name-�dropped, name-�drop�ping, name-�drops > To mention casually the names of illustrious or famous people in order to

imply > that one is on familiar terms with them, intended as a means ofself-promotion.

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> > Source: The American Heritage� Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth > Edition > > /Jens, surpriced at the stupidity exhibited by Pabst. > >

Good points Tom, and I think you are right ;) Mikkel Gram-Hansen -- Administrator http://www.racesimcentral.com Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]... > Hi guys.....this might be a bit of a long post, but its germane to the > "cockpit verses roof cam" thread.....and might be of some interest: [SNIP]

Tom, Not to be rude, but who ARE you? I've heard my husband talk about you in context with sim stuff, but he doesn't actually know what you do, apart from you used to write a small column @ HighGear - which I knew already, dosy git!?! :o) You say: "The following drivers ran for more than a half hour in our simulator at various places and times." So, what is your simulator? Any pictures of it and the other (name dropped??? - sorry, couldn't resist - ;o) people that have used it? Many thanks, Sarah T P.S. What's wrong with name dropping if it helps emphasize a point? :O) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]...

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> Hi guys.....this might be a bit of a long post, but its germane to the > "cockpit verses roof cam" thread.....and might be of some interest: > > **The PR 6/10 Rule** > We have a rule around here (at PR) we call the "6/10 Rule"......this has > evolved over the several years we have been actively trying to "bridge the > gap" between real-life racing and sim racing (primarily with real-life > drivers we encounter through our activities at nearby Sears Point raceway). > > It goes like this: "When driving a race car, let's arbitrarily say there's > something like ten things......sensory inputs and combinations > thereof......that a real race car driver gets from the > car/track/speed....etc. In one of our simulators, the *6/10 Rule* says, "If > you give the sim driver's brain 5 or 6 of those things very > realistically....his/her brain will start filling in the rest of the missing > items." > > I won't go into all the reasons and "proof" we have established here over > the last three years.....but we are confident this "rule" exists and I can > state many examples of essential proof that it does. Let me just give you > one...."How come I get sick running Bristol....the high banks don't put > G-force on my brain in the sim.....but I get sick and have actually thrown > up before...in my sim seat? My brain is "simulating" some of the G-force > for me.....even though it doesn't really exist in my sim seat. > > If you can accept this "rule" as reality.....then it brings up an > interesting prospect! It means its easier to fool Jeff Gordon's brain in > one of our cockpits....than a person who has never driven a race car. In > fact, I believe that's just the opposite of what most people would think. > At least, if we go by the thousands of times we've been asked at some of our > sim displays at tracks and conventions, "Yeah, but is this kind of racing > simulator realistic? Would a real race car driver think this is realistic?" > Actually, real race car drivers are more readily "engaged" by a good > simulator than are non-race car drivers....because their brains are more > tuned in.....they are used to being in a race car and if we give them 5 or 6 > inputs really well....they quickly fill in the others in an even more > engaging way..... than does a brain that's never been in a real race car. > > Here's a list of some *known* drivers we've had in our simulators over the > last three years. We've had hundreds more than these....but I'm only > listing the driver's most of you would know. I am not "name dropping"....if > I listed these drivers and they indeed had never been in one of our > simulators....then that would be "name dropping".....I hope some of you are > clear about that? I have either actually run with these guys side by side > on a dual simulator LAN connection, or stood at their side and watched them > run some one else...or they were running solo. Every one of these guys got > out of our sim with the same tell-tale body conditions that you see when > they climb out of a real race car (on TV). Their heart rates were elevated, > they were flushed, sweating and weak-kneed.....as they are when climbing out > of a real race car. The following drivers ran for more than a half hour in > our simulator at various places and times....in some cases, several hours > over multiple sessions: Jeff Gordon, Robby Gordon, Randy Pobst, Bobby > LaBonte, Dale-Jr., Ward Burton, Steve Park, Alan McNish, Ron Hornaday, Boris > Said.....to name a few that most of you should know. As a group.....our > "questions" about how engaged they were answered something like, "It was a > blast...and I had the true sense that I was in my race car (or in a race > car)." Not one of them thought it was stupid...or too gamey! > > By the way, one of the "applications" of the *6/10 Rule* is this: If you > give the brain one item out of the ten....in an **unrealistic way**.....then > it will discount all the others and not "engage" the sim driver's brain at > all. This is why we are very careful not to use things such as force > feedback in our sims, or attempt to simulate G-force in any way. Its not > that force feed back can't be accurately simulated through the controls > (say...the movement of the wheel when running over a curb)....its that it > can't be timed accurately and realistically enough with the "screen > event"......we keep hoping it will improve over time but so far, it has not. > FF is fun....but as currently implemented in every race sim we know > of....its not realistic enough...... so we don't use it in our > simulator/cockpits. > > The same thing would apply with the roof cam verses cockpit view discussed > below. One engages you because its more realistic to the brain....the other > does not (or not at the same level)...and causes all the others to be > discounted by the brain. > > Most of what we do in our simulators can be done by all of you with your > rigs at home. Its not earth-shattering stuff...its just carefully > orchestrated combinations of site, sound, feel and environment. I'd be glad > to discuss with you how/what we use....but it should probably be in a > separate thread.....if someone is interested. > > Tom > >

Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]... <snip some valid sounding info and mild name dropping (J/K Tom, Ii had to barb ya with the disclaimer you put out there...)> > > By the way, one of the "applications" of the *6/10 Rule* is this: If you > give the brain one item out of the ten....in an **unrealisticway**.....then

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> it will discount all the others and not "engage" the sim driver's brain at > all. This is why we are very careful not to use things such as force > feedback in our sims, or attempt to simulate G-force in any way. Its not > that force feed back can't be accurately simulated through the controls > (say...the movement of the wheel when running over a curb)....its that it > can't be timed accurately and realistically enough with the "screen > event"......we keep hoping it will improve over time but so far, it has

not. > FF is fun....but as currently implemented in every race sim we know > of....its not realistic enough...... so we don't use it in our > simulator/cockpits. > Getting away from the roof cam v. in-car 'discussion' for a moment, thanks for validating my exact opinion on FF. I have been brutally flamed over how 'real' it feels by most everyone that uses it. I have used FF (LWFF) and tried to like it for nearly a year. And you hit the nail squarely on the head: Fun? yes. Realisitic? no way, not yet. The LWFF is collecting dust in the bottom of my closet and I have moved up to a TSW2 Cup. I'll take perfect centering force over a non realistic feedback feel anyday. I still contend that the power steering in most race cars make the wheel feel very much like my TSW does anyway, of course bumping something being the exception. I'll pass on feeling hitting a curb or another car to forgo the phoney shaking and pull one gets at load on track in current sims. ....exits quietly, zipping up his Nomex suit...

ROFL!!!!!! -John "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:EfQe8.8447$[email hidden]...

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> OK.. that explains Dustin, Jure, Ramsden, and Base..... ;) > > Scott > PA-Scott > > > "Gavel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > The part of their brain that fills in the missing information defaults

to > > images of sheep.<g> > > Gavel > > "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:hRPe8.8441$[email hidden]... > > > OK.. now let's take this into another debate. How does this effector

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> > get > > > applied to the sim racers where "having" a brain is debateable? =) > > > > > > Scott > > > PA-Scott > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]... > > > > Hi guys.....this might be a bit of a long post, but its germane to

the

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> > > > "cockpit verses roof cam" thread.....and might be of some interest: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"I'll take perfect centering force over a non realistic feedback feel anyday" So you think that no forces at all and a perfect centering wheel is more realistic? I'll be the first to say that FF isn't perfect but it's as real as no forces, just different. Why is it that the pure simmers overlook the fact of having no forces and say that FF is not done properly? None is not proper either guys, just think about it. As I have said before, it up to the person to pick what gives them the best race experience, none is right or wrong. "CarGuy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KtQe8.73387$[email hidden]...

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> > Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]... > > <snip some valid sounding info and mild name dropping (J/K Tom, Ii had to > barb ya with the disclaimer you put out there...)> > > > > > > By the way, one of the "applications" of the *6/10 Rule* is this: If

you > > give the brain one item out of the ten....in an **unrealistic > way**.....then > > it will discount all the others and not "engage" the sim driver's brainat > > all. This is why we are very careful not to use things such as force > > feedback in our sims, or attempt to simulate G-force in any way. Itsnot > > that force feed back can't be accurately simulated through the controls > > (say...the movement of the wheel when running over a curb)....its thatit

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> > can't be timed accurately and realistically enough with the "screen > > event"......we keep hoping it will improve over time but so far, it has > not. > > FF is fun....but as currently implemented in every race sim we know > > of....its not realistic enough...... so we don't use it in our > > simulator/cockpits. > > > > Getting away from the roof cam v. in-car 'discussion' for a moment, thanks > for validating my exact opinion on FF. I have been brutally flamed over

how > 'real' it feels by most everyone that uses it. I have used FF (LWFF) and > tried to like it for nearly a year. And you hit the nail squarely on the > head: Fun? yes. Realisitic? no way, not yet. The LWFF is collecting dustin > the bottom of my closet and I have moved up to a TSW2 Cup. I'll takeperfect > centering force over a non realistic feedback feel anyday. I still contend > that the power steering in most race cars make the wheel feel very muchlike

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> my TSW does anyway, of course bumping something being the exception. I'll > pass on feeling hitting a curb or another car to forgo the phoney shaking > and pull one gets at load on track in current sims. > > ....exits quietly, zipping up his Nomex suit... > >

CarGuy wrote: > Getting away from the roof cam v. in-car 'discussion' for a moment, thanks > for validating my exact opinion on FF. I have been brutally flamed over how > 'real' it feels by most everyone that uses it. I have used FF (LWFF) and > tried to like it for nearly a year. And you hit the nail squarely on the > head: Fun? yes. Realisitic? no way, not yet. The LWFF is collecting dust in > the bottom of my closet and I have moved up to a TSW2 Cup. A spring or bungie is more realistic is it? > I'll take perfect > centering force over a non realistic feedback feel anyday. Camber has an effect on wheel centring in a real car, and the track camber in GPL has an effect on centring on my Momo. But if springs are your thing... > I still contend > that the power steering in most race cars make the wheel feel very much like > my TSW does anyway, What with no camber effect? > of course bumping something being the exception. I'll > pass on feeling hitting a curb or another car to forgo the phoney shaking > and pull one gets at load on track in current sims. You never did get your FF set-up right, did you... obviously!

Ya I think a lot of the problem is that people just don't know how to properly configure a FF wheel. They set it to 100% and say "this ain't real" and give up. I guess to some having no feedback and a perfect smooth wheel that centers with a spring is reality :) "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > CarGuy wrote: > > > Getting away from the roof cam v. in-car 'discussion' for a moment,thanks > > for validating my exact opinion on FF. I have been brutally flamed overhow > > 'real' it feels by most everyone that uses it. I have used FF (LWFF) and > > tried to like it for nearly a year. And you hit the nail squarely on the > > head: Fun? yes. Realisitic? no way, not yet. The LWFF is collecting dustin

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> > the bottom of my closet and I have moved up to a TSW2 Cup. > > A spring or bungie is more realistic is it? > > > I'll take perfect > > centering force over a non realistic feedback feel anyday. > > Camber has an effect on wheel centring in a real car, and the track > camber in GPL has an effect on centring on my Momo. But if springs are > your thing... > > > I still contend > > that the power steering in most race cars make the wheel feel very much

like > > my TSW does anyway, > > What with no camber effect? > > > of course bumping something being the exception. I'll > > pass on feeling hitting a curb or another car to forgo the phoneyshaking > > and pull one gets at load on track in current sims. > > You never did get your FF set-up right, did you... obviously!

Schooner <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:xBQe8.21881$[email hidden]... > "I'll take perfect centering force over a non realistic feedback feel > anyday" > So you think that no forces at all and a perfect centering wheel is more > realistic? I'll be the first to say that FF isn't perfect but it's asreal > as no forces, just different. Why is it that the pure simmers overlookthe > fact of having no forces and say that FF is not done properly? None isnot > proper either guys, just think about it. As I have said before, it up to > the person to pick what gives them the best race experience, none is right > or wrong. > No, you over thought my response. You got the qoute correct "I'll take perfect centering force over a non realistic feedback feel anyday'. I didn't say anything about a perfect centering force being more realistic, I just said I'd take it over overblown, phoney FF which is what we have today unfortunately. In laymens terms, I agree, it is personal opinion and my opinion is a good centering force is far superior in feel when racing a sim to fake and late (as Tom accurately pointed out) feedback effects.

Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > CarGuy wrote: > > > Getting away from the roof cam v. in-car 'discussion' for a moment,thanks > > for validating my exact opinion on FF. I have been brutally flamed overhow > > 'real' it feels by most everyone that uses it. I have used FF (LWFF) and > > tried to like it for nearly a year. And you hit the nail squarely on the > > head: Fun? yes. Realisitic? no way, not yet. The LWFF is collecting dustin

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> > the bottom of my closet and I have moved up to a TSW2 Cup. > > A spring or bungie is more realistic is it? > > > I'll take perfect > > centering force over a non realistic feedback feel anyday. > > Camber has an effect on wheel centring in a real car, and the track > camber in GPL has an effect on centring on my Momo. But if springs are > your thing... > > > I still contend > > that the power steering in most race cars make the wheel feel very much

like > > my TSW does anyway, > > What with no camber effect? > > > of course bumping something being the exception. I'll > > pass on feeling hitting a curb or another car to forgo the phoneyshaking > > and pull one gets at load on track in current sims. > > You never did get your FF set-up right, did you... obviously! I'm not going to argue this with you, you are obviously convinced it is your way or the highway. I'll reserve my judgement until we meet on track someday and you're spinning out trying to "catch" your Momo while I motor away. And yes, I spent hours tweaking those phoney effects and none ever came close to driving a real car. If they can't even get close, why use them at all? FF is personal preference and I prefer to let them be until they are accurate.

Schooner wrote:

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> > "I'll take perfect centering force over a non realistic feedback feel > anyday" > So you think that no forces at all and a perfect centering wheel is more > realistic? I'll be the first to say that FF isn't perfect but it's as real > as no forces, just different. Why is it that the pure simmers overlook the > fact of having no forces and say that FF is not done properly?

Because all the high priced wheel makers, like TSW and ECCI, can't afford to use FF and have written complete rubbish about it on their web sites. Well they would say that wouldn't they!?! Their customers believe it regardless and regurgitate it on a regular basis. > None is not > proper either guys, just think about it. As I have said before, it up to > the person to pick what gives them the best race experience, none is right > or wrong. I think it makes a lot of the 'spring only boys' slower, so they just slag it of because it suits them. Gerry

Schooner <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8KQe8.21885$[email hidden]...

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> Ya I think a lot of the problem is that people just don't know how to > properly configure a FF wheel. They set it to 100% and say "this ain't > real" and give up. > > I guess to some having no feedback and a perfect smooth wheel that centers > with a spring is reality :) >

Wrong again. You think we're saying non FF is more REAL. NO! I am saying that choosing between two non real feels (centering spring or PFF (phoney FF)) I'll take the spring and go on. You sound like you guys are trying to justify why you use FF. I don't care for it, period. If FF was the end-all be-all in sim racing, TSW would not still be in business...

Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Schooner wrote: > > I think it makes a lot of the 'spring only boys' slower, so they just > slag it of because it suits them. > > Gerry

That's one opinion where I would have to say you are incorrect. I race with a bunch of FF-heads, much like yourself, they couldn't drive without it. And yet manage to win my share of both pickup and league events (and sadly only one league championship in the past 12 months tho :( ) with my piddily old centering spring equipped TSW. I won races using that plastic POS LWFF too, so it comes back to personal opinion. I don't think my opinion is law like you do, but I want other new simmers out there to know that there is some credence to NOT using FF as well. Try both and choose for themselves, they'll likely join your camp for a while because it is a novelty at first.

Gavel.... First....I have to say that I am surprised....and pleased that you did not begin your post by slamming me in some way. I don't want to get into the "past" with you.....I just wanted to tell you I think its cool that you commented about what I said, and asked some really good questions about it as well. Thanks. I have to tell you that until recently....I pretty much thought as you do about real race drivers....especially professionals that spend most of their time racing......would never think a simulator was in any way equivalent to "real-life" seat time. I was wrong about that....and I'm further proven wrong every week or so now that we are actively out at Sears Point regularly. Real race drivers....especially the pros.....are more easily engaged than novice or non-race drivers. That's assuming...you have done a good job with simulating the "basics" of being in a race car. I also agree with your observation that they are not as fast as non-real-life sim drivers I know. In general.....you are correct they are not. As we are able to work more and more with real-life drives in our sims.....I am beginning to formulate....postulate is probably a better word....... some ideas about this. Here's some of those...and some interesting observations we've seen watching the "Jeff Gordon's" of the world run in our sims (these aren't in any logical order....just listing some things germane to your questions): 1. We are beginning to think that real-life drivers are "slow" in sims because they treat their seat time in the sim similar to their seat time in a real race car. I.e.....they go slow....for many laps...trying to get a "feel" of the car and allowing "time" for their brains to become "equally engaged" in the sim as it is in their real car. Some can do this faster than others. A few....never can do it. 2. Last year, while several Cup teams where at Sears for a two-day practice session in April (the race is at the end of June)....a bunch of us were interested to see how these pro drivers tackled learning the new WC chute. They had never seen it before that Tuesday morning session. And, one driver....Dale, Jr. - had not been to Sears but once before. He actually hired Boris Said for two days....to be his "Sears Point driving coach." In the first morning session.....first time out on the track....almost everyone drove around very slowly (mostly in second and third gear)....for the entire hour session. Only near the end of the session did we begin to hear them shift into fourth gear going up the front straight. We had radar guns on all of them a various parts of the track....nobody ran anything near full race speeds....for their first hour out on the track. They all also.......tend to do this in a sim the first time they get into it. 3. The combination of low seat-time in a simulator....and the fact that they start off really slow and build up to full speed when in an unfamiliar environment.....says that they are slow just because of the lack of seat-time....and just about nothing else. Its only a theory. 4. However, here's an observation that tends to support that theory...in another way. We have a member of our staff who is a part-time ALMS driver...and a Russell School instructor....who also hires out for private coaching much like Boris Said regularly does. His name is Dave McEntee.....many of you have raced with Dave in GPL on VROC over the last year...and probably didn't know it. Dave is also an avid sim racer. He hand built his racing cockpit in our shops....I helped him and he painstakingly built it over a three month period. Dave probably runs about the same "sim seat-time" each week as most of the serious sim racers I know.....and he's just as fast in the simulator....as he is in a real race car....."now"...but that was not always the case. When Dave first started sim racing with us....couple years back....he was dog slow (for a very long time). Now, Dave is the fastest sim driver of all the PR staff. Why? Because he now puts in about as much seat-time in his sim...as he does in real race cars. In fact, Dave says he feels more at "home" in his sim than he does in a real race car......the "experience" becoming nearly equal to him. So Gavel, I think your observation that real-life drivers tend to be slow sim drivers....is only because they just haven't got enough seat-time in a simulator as the fast sim drivers. You know what I mean? 5. One time last year, we tried to figure out how many times an average WC driver actually spins his car at full race speed during a season. I'm recalling the numbers from memory....but I think we figured the average number of spins...for an average WC driver was something like 30 times in one season (that included all the practice time and qual seat-time...for an entire race weekend...not just the Sunday race itself). Think about this! The average hardcore sim driver probably spins his sim car 30 times in one week! In a WC season...the average sim driver has 39 more times "experience" handling a spinning race car than does a real-world WC driver. Does that "experience" bonus translate into more racing experience too? Of course it does....it has to! It would be interesting if someone would figure out how many total hours a WC driver gets behind the wheel in a race WC car during one season.....compared to the average hardcore sim driver over the same time period. Could somebody try doing that? I'd really be interested in that stat! 6. There are some exceptions to this "observation" that real-life drivers are slow sim drivers. Dale, Jr. is a classic example....he is not slow in a simulator (at least not according to my observations of him driving in one). I watched Dale and Steve Park run side by side for a half hour at Sears (it was back in the N3 days)....and Dale was up to full race speeds within 15 minutes.....Steve was still crashing every lap. I watched Bobby Labonte come up to full race speeds within a few laps....carefully working his way around the track, bringing up his speed with each lap. He never even dropped a wheel off the track at Sears....and was running near real-life WC car speeds at Sears (again in N3) within 10 or 15 laps. He is not a slow sim driver either. 7. We have another member of our group who is a real-life driver with tons of experience. His name is Ralph Alexander....if you guys would go to the NASA web page, you will see that Ralph is Chief Of Instructors...for NASA Pro Racing - SFO Region. Ralph has driven everything from Group C prototypes in Europe to Porsche GT cars, LMP cars and open wheel sports racers. He is one of the fastest drivers I know....even at his old age (....lol...sorry Ralph). But...he is dog-assed slow in a simulator....and he probably has a couple thousand hours in his simulator...or mine, over the last three years he's worked with us. Its a joke around Pabst-Racing....Ralph is sooooo sloooooow. Why? I haven't got a clue. We've worked with him countless hours......Dave McEntee even took him on as a regular "sim student" for two months. Ralph is not any faster today than the first 50 hours he drove in our sims. "For some reason"....Ralph says, "I can't get my mind to engage me....to actually act and behave like it does in a real race car." I can tell you, Ralph is frustrated by this...and he doesn't have a clue how Dave McEntee can be so fast in a simulator. I don't really know how unique Ralph is among real-life drivers running in a simulator? But I suspect....its not probably that uncommon? So Gavel, this also could be part of the "answer" to your question about real-life drivers being slow sim drivers....you know? Anyway...good questions you postulated, Gavel. Thanks for asking them. Tom "Gavel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Real race car drivers have the advantage of having "sensed"(i.e, felt g > forces, steering wheel tension, sensation of speed etc) the environmentand > so I suppose you're right about them having their disbelief suspendedwhile > in a sim cockpit. > So, how come, in the sim world, non race car drivers are by far the better > sim racers? Not being contentious, just curious . > I'm all for bridging the gap between real racers and sim racers. However, > those real racers do indeed have a long way to go to catch up with thekids > when it comes to sim racing. ;) > Gavel > >

CarGuy wrote: > I'm not going to argue this with you, you are obviously convinced it is your > way or the highway. I'll reserve my judgement until we meet on track someday > and you're spinning out trying to "catch" your Momo while I motor away. A 'perfect centring spring' is about as phoney as any wheel can get. How you can say the carefully worked and implemented FF effects in GPL and n2002 are more phoney than your 'spring in a box' is beyond me! Gerry

Gerry... Our observations are that FF is not accurate enough....in most cases. However, the best and closest it is in a sim.....is FF in GPL is dang close. Unfortunately for us, we don't use GPL in our sims....not very often at least. There's other reasons for this......but the FF in GPL is dang close to being perfect. So, I would agree with you on that score....and I'd not be surprised at the reactions from your friend when you turned FF on for him. Tom "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Tom Pabst wrote: > > > By the way, one of the "applications" of the *6/10 Rule* is this: Ifyou > > give the brain one item out of the ten....in an **unrealisticway**.....then > > it will discount all the others and not "engage" the sim driver's brainat > > all. This is why we are very careful not to use things such as force > > feedback in our sims, or attempt to simulate G-force in any way. Itsnot > > that force feed back can't be accurately simulated through the controls > > (say...the movement of the wheel when running over a curb)....its thatit > > can't be timed accurately and realistically enough with the "screen > > event"......we keep hoping it will improve over time but so far, it hasnot.

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> > FF is fun....but as currently implemented in every race sim we know > > of....its not realistic enough...... so we don't use it in our > > simulator/cockpits. > > I did a FF test: Took a friend who'd raced saloons, but had never tried > computer sims, had him dive GPL with FF off for 20 mins...he loved it > btw, stopped him for a few seconds and turned FF on. Of course I didn't > tell him I'd changed anything :). Then, just asked him if anything felt > different. He said straight away the steering was different, BETTER! He > said he could now feel the grip levels. He said it felt like driving on > ice in the first session. > > Not really proof of anything, I'd like to have done more tests, but I'd > run out of people like him <G>. So I tried it with other non real > racing, non sim racing friends and they ALL said the same thing. > > NB: No women were involved in these tests. One did make the tea though > <G>. > > > Most of what we do in our simulators can be done by all of you with your > > rigs at home. Its not earth-shattering stuff...its just carefully > > orchestrated combinations of site, sound, feel and environment. I'd be

glad > > to discuss with you how/what we use....but it should probably be in a > > separate thread.....if someone is interested. > > Go for it! > > Gerry

Lol.....Scott....stop goofing around. We get a good, serious discussion going here and you want to degrade it into a character assassination thread. Next, you'll be asking the "aliens" to tell us all how they cheat? ......lol..... Tom PS: Just to make perfectly sure some of you understand......I don't think any of the fast sim drivers cheat.....at least not to be fast....I don't know what else anyone does in the "cheat" thing anyway. I was making a joke...its only a joke, okay? "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hRPe8.8441$[email hidden]... > OK.. now let's take this into another debate. How does this effect orget

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> applied to the sim racers where "having" a brain is debateable? =) > > Scott > PA-Scott > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]... > > Hi guys.....this might be a bit of a long post, but its germane to the > > "cockpit verses roof cam" thread.....and might be of some interest: > > >

Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5gmbg$789u0$[email hidden]... > would you sell me your LWFF? > > Achim > > > I would, but I am a nice, outgoing conservative guy. I'd feel guilty laying it off on ya. How much are they worth nowadays anyway? Mine was bought new and ran about 60 races on it, otherwise dent and scratch free.

Schooner (knock knock) Your'e an admitted "ROOF-RIDER" so ANYTHING you have to say regarding N2k2 will forever be suspect. If you say FF is great then I choose Non-FF (just stressing my point lol). We play entirely different sim/games you and I , mine simulates what a NASCAR driver see's and yours simulates Pole Position :-). As far as I'm concerned roof-riding is the same as brake assist, it's there but only the kiddies or rooks actually ever use it. I'm very much a cynic so even the "I get sick" excuse makes me scratch a little. My experience has shown that roof-riders are quite a bit more reckless also (at least from the in-car perspective). From the roof-rider point of view the cars aren't even close as they enter T2 at SP side by side, but from the in-car I'm thinkin youre runnin me off the road. This isn't a point that can be argued but rather a way that may help you understand how the other half lives (or 98% lives) LOL. MItch "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8KQe8.21885$[email hidden]...

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> Ya I think a lot of the problem is that people just don't know how to > properly configure a FF wheel. They set it to 100% and say "this ain't > real" and give up. > > I guess to some having no feedback and a perfect smooth wheel that centers > with a spring is reality :) > > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > CarGuy wrote: > > > > > Getting away from the roof cam v. in-car 'discussion' for a moment, > thanks > > > for validating my exact opinion on FF. I have been brutally flamed

over > how > > > 'real' it feels by most everyone that uses it. I have used FF (LWFF)and > > > tried to like it for nearly a year. And you hit the nail squarely onthe > > > head: Fun? yes. Realisitic? no way, not yet. The LWFF is collectingdust

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> in > > > the bottom of my closet and I have moved up to a TSW2 Cup. > > > > A spring or bungie is more realistic is it? > > > > > I'll take perfect > > > centering force over a non realistic feedback feel anyday. > > > > Camber has an effect on wheel centring in a real car, and the track > > camber in GPL has an effect on centring on my Momo. But if springs are > > your thing... > > > > > I still contend > > > that the power steering in most race cars make the wheel feel very

much

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> like > > > my TSW does anyway, > > > > What with no camber effect? > > > > > of course bumping something being the exception. I'll > > > pass on feeling hitting a curb or another car to forgo the phoney > shaking > > > and pull one gets at load on track in current sims. > > > > You never did get your FF set-up right, did you... obviously! > >

Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > CarGuy wrote: > > > I'm not going to argue this with you, you are obviously convinced it isyour > > way or the highway. I'll reserve my judgement until we meet on tracksomeday

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> > and you're spinning out trying to "catch" your Momo while I motor away. > > A 'perfect centring spring' is about as phoney as any wheel can get. How > you can say the carefully worked and implemented FF effects in GPL and > n2002 are more phoney than your 'spring in a box' is beyond me! > > Gerry

Will you please clean the resin out and LISTEN?! I am not saying a centering spring is REAL! Jesus! I am saying that choosing between two phoneys, I'll take the least obnoxious phoney. GOD! WAKE UP!

lol.... tp "Gavel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> The part of their brain that fills in the missing information defaults to > images of sheep.<g> > Gavel > "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:hRPe8.8441$[email hidden]... > > OK.. now let's take this into another debate. How does this effect or > get > > applied to the sim racers where "having" a brain is debateable? =) > > > > Scott > > PA-Scott > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]... > > > Hi guys.....this might be a bit of a long post, but its germane to the > > > "cockpit verses roof cam" thread.....and might be of some interest: > > > > > > > >

Nothing explains "Ramsden"....he's on another planet entirely from the others! ...lol... TP "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:EfQe8.8447$[email hidden]...

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> OK.. that explains Dustin, Jure, Ramsden, and Base..... ;) > > Scott > PA-Scott > > > "Gavel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > The part of their brain that fills in the missing information defaults

to > > images of sheep.<g> > > Gavel > > "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:hRPe8.8441$[email hidden]... > > > OK.. now let's take this into another debate. How does this effector

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> > get > > > applied to the sim racers where "having" a brain is debateable? =) > > > > > > Scott > > > PA-Scott > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]... > > > > Hi guys.....this might be a bit of a long post, but its germane to

the

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> > > > "cockpit verses roof cam" thread.....and might be of some interest: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Jens H. Kruuse" wrote:

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> No, because you are dead wrong ... again! > > name-drop (nmdrp) > intr.v. name-·dropped, name-·drop·ping, name-·drops > To mention casually the names of illustrious or famous people in order to imply > that one is on familiar terms with them, intended as a means of self-promotion. > > Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth > Edition > > /Jens, surpriced at the stupidity exhibited by Pabst.

For christ's sake shutup about bloody name-dropping! Tom's on topic and relevant. Gerry

Hehe whatever. "Mitch Alatorre" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:D7Re8.48038$[email hidden]... > Schooner (knock knock) Your'e an admitted "ROOF-RIDER" so ANYTHING youhave > to say regarding N2k2 will forever be suspect. If you say FF is greatthen > I choose Non-FF (just stressing my point lol). We play entirely different > sim/games you and I , mine simulates what a NASCAR driver see's and yours > simulates Pole Position :-). As far as I'm concerned roof-riding is the > same as brake assist, it's there but only the kiddies or rooks actuallyever > use it. I'm very much a cynic so even the "I get sick" excuse makes me > scratch a little. My experience has shown that roof-riders are quite abit > more reckless also (at least from the in-car perspective). From the > roof-rider point of view the cars aren't even close as they enter T2 at SP > side by side, but from the in-car I'm thinkin youre runnin me off theroad.

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> This isn't a point that can be argued but rather a way that may help you > understand how the other half lives (or 98% lives) LOL. > > MItch > > "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8KQe8.21885$[email hidden]... > > Ya I think a lot of the problem is that people just don't know how to > > properly configure a FF wheel. They set it to 100% and say "this ain't > > real" and give up. > > > > I guess to some having no feedback and a perfect smooth wheel that

centers

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> > with a spring is reality :) > > > > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > CarGuy wrote: > > > > > > > Getting away from the roof cam v. in-car 'discussion' for a moment, > > thanks > > > > for validating my exact opinion on FF. I have been brutally flamed > over > > how > > > > 'real' it feels by most everyone that uses it. I have used FF (LWFF) > and > > > > tried to like it for nearly a year. And you hit the nail squarely on > the > > > > head: Fun? yes. Realisitic? no way, not yet. The LWFF is collecting > dust > > in > > > > the bottom of my closet and I have moved up to a TSW2 Cup. > > > > > > A spring or bungie is more realistic is it? > > > > > > > I'll take perfect > > > > centering force over a non realistic feedback feel anyday. > > > > > > Camber has an effect on wheel centring in a real car, and the track > > > camber in GPL has an effect on centring on my Momo. But if springs are > > > your thing... > > > > > > > I still contend > > > > that the power steering in most race cars make the wheel feel very > much > > like > > > > my TSW does anyway, > > > > > > What with no camber effect? > > > > > > > of course bumping something being the exception. I'll > > > > pass on feeling hitting a curb or another car to forgo the phoney > > shaking > > > > and pull one gets at load on track in current sims. > > > > > > You never did get your FF set-up right, did you... obviously! > > > > > >

CarGuy wrote: No you wake up and READ this again:- >>A 'perfect centring spring' is about as phoney as any wheel can get. How you can say the carefully worked and implemented FF effects in GPL andn2002 are more phoney than your 'spring in a box' is beyond me!<< And you reply that the above with this! > Will you please clean the resin out and LISTEN?! I am not saying a centering > spring is REAL! Jesus! I am saying that choosing between two phoneys, I'll > take the least obnoxious phoney. GOD! WAKE UP! I'll try again <G> Your wheel is dead, it only has a reflex action controlling it, that is phoney! MUCH more phoney than a Momo or an LWFF with the FF turned on and setup properly. Opinion doesn't even enter into it. It's just a fact. Understand now? ;) Gerry

Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > CarGuy wrote: > > > No you wake up and READ this again:- > > >>A 'perfect centring spring' is about as phoney as any wheel can get. How

you can say the carefully worked and implemented FF effects in GPL and > n2002 are more phoney than your 'spring in a box' is beyond me!<< > > And you reply that the above with this! > > > Will you please clean the resin out and LISTEN?! I am not saying acentering > > spring is REAL! Jesus! I am saying that choosing between two phoneys,I'll

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> > take the least obnoxious phoney. GOD! WAKE UP! > > I'll try again <G> > > Your wheel is dead, it only has a reflex action controlling it, that is > phoney! MUCH more phoney than a Momo or an LWFF with the FF turned on > and setup properly. Opinion doesn't even enter into it. It's just a > fact. > > Understand now? ;) > > Gerry

Nope, I don't. They're both phoney and I like the smooth phoney better, period. Agree to disagree, ok?

Sarah.... I don't think your "request" is rude. I've been posting on r.a.s. for around five years...or so. I forget that not everyone has been around that long. Three years ago....I quite my job full time.....to spend full-time pursuing development of racing simulators to be used in real-world racing....in any applicable manner. It has been a long and hard battle just to get real-world racing people to accept the fact the racing simulators.....can be useful. Many today....still think they are only kids games. The "battle" continues....... Two years ago.....we did some work for Sears Point Raceway....using our simulators.....to help them re-design the WC Chute portion of their track. That work....lasting over an 18-month period....led to being able to work with several WC drivers in our sims. This has been posted on r.a.s. before....but probably not for a long time. Here's some links to a couple of old graphics that were posted on High Gear and several other websites a couple years back (pictures are better than words....in this case): www.pabst-racing.com/webscreens/jeff_gordon.gif www.pabst-racing.com/webscreens/ward_burton.gif www.pabst-racing.com/webscreens/pabst_interview.gif This pic below is one of our early beta station simulators where we used it to develop sound and engine vibration. You will note the use of the overhead "Wildwood" pedals as well......the same as are in many WC cars today. www.pabst-racing.com/webscreens/tpracerig.jpg Here's a "movie" AVI of a lap at Sears point in this sound rig....showing the pedals and foot work....with sound. I think you will see that its not totally unlike what you may have observed some time on TV from a "foot cam" in a real race car? www.pabst-racing.com/webscreens/searslap-1.avi I don't know that his totally answers your questions....but its a bit closer than no info at all.....you know? Regards, Tom "Paul Thorp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5gjgk$so5$[email hidden]... Tom, Not to be rude, but who ARE you? I've heard my husband talk about you in context with sim stuff, but he doesn't actually know what you do, apart from you used to write a small column @ HighGear - which I knew already, dosy git!?! :o) You say: "The following drivers ran for more than a half hour in our simulator at various places and times." So, what is your simulator? Any pictures of it and the other (name dropped??? - sorry, couldn't resist - ;o) people that have used it? Many thanks, Sarah T P.S. What's wrong with name dropping if it helps emphasize a point? :O) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]...

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> Hi guys.....this might be a bit of a long post, but its germane to the > "cockpit verses roof cam" thread.....and might be of some interest: > > **The PR 6/10 Rule** > We have a rule around here (at PR) we call the "6/10 Rule"......this has > evolved over the several years we have been actively trying to "bridge the > gap" between real-life racing and sim racing (primarily with real-life > drivers we encounter through our activities at nearby Sears Point raceway). > > It goes like this: "When driving a race car, let's arbitrarily say there's > something like ten things......sensory inputs and combinations > thereof......that a real race car driver gets from the > car/track/speed....etc. In one of our simulators, the *6/10 Rule* says, "If > you give the sim driver's brain 5 or 6 of those things very > realistically....his/her brain will start filling in the rest of the missing > items." > > I won't go into all the reasons and "proof" we have established here over > the last three years.....but we are confident this "rule" exists and I can > state many examples of essential proof that it does. Let me just give you > one...."How come I get sick running Bristol....the high banks don't put > G-force on my brain in the sim.....but I get sick and have actually thrown > up before...in my sim seat? My brain is "simulating" some of the G-force > for me.....even though it doesn't really exist in my sim seat. > > If you can accept this "rule" as reality.....then it brings up an > interesting prospect! It means its easier to fool Jeff Gordon's brain in > one of our cockpits....than a person who has never driven a race car. In > fact, I believe that's just the opposite of what most people would think. > At least, if we go by the thousands of times we've been asked at some of our > sim displays at tracks and conventions, "Yeah, but is this kind of racing > simulator realistic? Would a real race car driver think this is realistic?" > Actually, real race car drivers are more readily "engaged" by a good > simulator than are non-race car drivers....because their brains are more > tuned in.....they are used to being in a race car and if we give them 5 or 6 > inputs really well....they quickly fill in the others in an even more > engaging way..... than does a brain that's never been in a real race car. > > Here's a list of some *known* drivers we've had in our simulators over the > last three years. We've had hundreds more than these....but I'm only > listing the driver's most of you would know. I am not "name dropping"....if > I listed these drivers and they indeed had never been in one of our > simulators....then that would be "name dropping".....I hope some of you are > clear about that? I have either actually run with these guys side by side > on a dual simulator LAN connection, or stood at their side and watched them > run some one else...or they were running solo. Every one of these guys got > out of our sim with the same tell-tale body conditions that you see when > they climb out of a real race car (on TV). Their heart rates were elevated, > they were flushed, sweating and weak-kneed.....as they are when climbing out > of a real race car. The following drivers ran for more than a half hour in > our simulator at various places and times....in some cases, several hours > over multiple sessions: Jeff Gordon, Robby Gordon, Randy Pobst, Bobby > LaBonte, Dale-Jr., Ward Burton, Steve Park, Alan McNish, Ron Hornaday, Boris > Said.....to name a few that most of you should know. As a group.....our > "questions" about how engaged they were answered something like, "It was a > blast...and I had the true sense that I was in my race car (or in a race > car)." Not one of them thought it was stupid...or too gamey! > > By the way, one of the "applications" of the *6/10 Rule* is this: If you > give the brain one item out of the ten....in an **unrealistic way**.....then > it will discount all the others and not "engage" the sim driver's brain at > all. This is why we are very careful not to use things such as force > feedback in our sims, or attempt to simulate G-force in any way. Its not > that force feed back can't be accurately simulated through the controls > (say...the movement of the wheel when running over a curb)....its that it > can't be timed accurately and realistically enough with the "screen > event"......we keep hoping it will improve over time but so far, it has not. > FF is fun....but as currently implemented in every race sim we know > of....its not realistic enough...... so we don't use it in our > simulator/cockpits. > > The same thing would apply with the roof cam verses cockpit view discussed > below. One engages you because its more realistic to the brain....the other > does not (or not at the same level)...and causes all the others to be > discounted by the brain. > > Most of what we do in our simulators can be done by all of you with your > rigs at home. Its not earth-shattering stuff...its just carefully > orchestrated combinations of site, sound, feel and environment. I'd be glad > to discuss with you how/what we use....but it should probably be in a > separate thread.....if someone is interested. > > Tom > >

Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:d1Re8.32334$[email hidden]... > Gerry... > > Our observations are that FF is not accurate enough....in most cases. > However, the best and closest it is in a sim.....is FF in GPL is dangclose. > Unfortunately for us, we don't use GPL in our sims....not very often at > least. There's other reasons for this......but the FF in GPL is dangclose > to being perfect. So, I would agree with you on that score....and I'd not > be surprised at the reactions from your friend when you turned FF on for > him. > > Tom > I do think that the FF in GPL is better than the NR series, but still not accurate enough to use a FF wheel for. IMHO, that is why I like non FF. Given they are both evils, I like to say that I choose the lessor of the 2 in using a fake, phoney, not worth using TSW with a centering spring...[no need to respond to me Gerry, I killfile opinion staters that hold out their opinion as fact, sadly you made that list today...] I agree with your opinion on FF Tom, flame-on everyone else.

CarGuy wrote: > Nope, I don't. They're both phoney and I like the smooth phoney better, > period. > > Agree to disagree, ok? Nope, how can you call the FF in GPL phoney, when it is very realistic if setup properly. Tom even says the FF in GPL is 'dang close'. Gerry

Tom, please keep telling us stories you feel you'd like to tell, and use the names that need to be used in these stories. I find them interesting, and I have no problem reading famous names. I won't respect anyone more or less just for knowing someone else, but I don't have the slightest problem with it either. And anyway, so far, you haven't been namesdropping. Achim "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KgQe8.1196$mG.2453@rwcrnsc54... > Jens... > > I did *not* mention their names casually....I mentioned them*specifically.* > I also said I'd raced with them or closely observed them racing in our > sims.....not that I was friends with them or knew them in any othercapacity

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> other than they drove in our simulators. The use of their names was > specific and germane to the topic I was writing about. > > I agree with your definition of "name dropping" but not with your > application of it in this case. > > Tom > > > "Jens H. Kruuse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:5OPe8.10914$[email hidden]... > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse > > news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]... > > > Here's a list of some *known* drivers we've had in our simulators over > the > > > last three years. We've had hundreds more than these....but I'm only > > > listing the driver's most of you would know. I am not "name > dropping"....if > > > I listed these drivers and they indeed had never been in one of our > > > simulators....then that would be "name dropping".....I hope some of

you

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> are > > > clear about that? > > > > No, because you are dead wrong ... again! > > > > name-drop (nmdrp) > > intr.v. name-�dropped, name-�drop�ping, name-�drops > > To mention casually the names of illustrious or famous people in order

to > imply > > that one is on familiar terms with them, intended as a means of > self-promotion. > > > > Source: The American Heritage� Dictionary of the English Language,Fourth

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> > Edition > > > > /Jens, surpriced at the stupidity exhibited by Pabst. > > > > > >

would you sell me your LWFF? Achim "CarGuy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7MQe8.73392$[email hidden]...

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> > Schooner <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:xBQe8.21881$[email hidden]... > > "I'll take perfect centering force over a non realistic feedback feel > > anyday" > > So you think that no forces at all and a perfect centering wheel is more > > realistic? I'll be the first to say that FF isn't perfect but it's as > real > > as no forces, just different. Why is it that the pure simmers overlook > the > > fact of having no forces and say that FF is not done properly? None is > not > > proper either guys, just think about it. As I have said before, it up

to > > the person to pick what gives them the best race experience, none isright > > or wrong. > > > > No, you over thought my response. You got the qoute correct "I'll take > perfect centering force over a non realistic feedback feel anyday'. Ididn't

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> say anything about a perfect centering force being more realistic, I just > said I'd take it over overblown, phoney FF which is what we have today > unfortunately. > > In laymens terms, I agree, it is personal opinion and my opinion is a good > centering force is far superior in feel when racing a sim to fake and late > (as Tom accurately pointed out) feedback effects. > >

...[no need to respond to me Gerry, I killfile opinion staters that hold out their opinion as fact, sadly you made that list today...] Ya, you never do that. "CarGuy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DGRe8.73646$[email hidden]...

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> > Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:d1Re8.32334$[email hidden]... > > Gerry... > > > > Our observations are that FF is not accurate enough....in most cases. > > However, the best and closest it is in a sim.....is FF in GPL is dang > close. > > Unfortunately for us, we don't use GPL in our sims....not very often at > > least. There's other reasons for this......but the FF in GPL is dang > close > > to being perfect. So, I would agree with you on that score....and I'd

not

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> > be surprised at the reactions from your friend when you turned FF on for > > him. > > > > Tom > > > > I do think that the FF in GPL is better than the NR series, but still not > accurate enough to use a FF wheel for. IMHO, that is why I like non FF. > Given they are both evils, I like to say that I choose the lessor of the 2 > in using a fake, phoney, not worth using TSW with a centering spring...[no > need to respond to me Gerry, I killfile opinion staters that hold out

their > opinion as fact, sadly you made that list today...] > > I agree with your opinion on FF Tom, flame-on everyone else. > >

Schooner <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a7Se8.21916$[email hidden]... > ...[no need to respond to me Gerry, I killfile opinion staters that holdout > their > opinion as fact, sadly you made that list today...] > > Ya, you never do that. > Nope, I always say that my opinion is just that. He just couldn't handle my opinion being different than his, that's all. I don't like FF , he does. I say ok, you're entitled to your opinion, he retorts, no you're wrong. That's not a mature, constructive converstaion to me, sorry. I never said he was wrong about anything but his interpretation of MY opinion, must not get to win a lot of arguments at home is my guess (opinion). Also doesn't know how to agree to disagree, has to win. Glad I haven't gotten an application to my league from him... Don't be so quick to finger point, Mr roof cammer, LOL! :)

Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5gs35$78dfh$[email hidden]... > Let's continue this via email. Please contact me by email, I'll make an > offer by email in reply. > > Or should I write to the hotmail address your message header shows (i.e.do

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> you ever check email that address - I have a hotmail address too which I > never check)? If not, please send me an email to the address my message > header shows. > > You wouldn't be laying the wheel off on me, you'd be doing me a favour. > > Achim >

I don't bork my email, the mail to the addy in the header will find me.

CarGuy wrote:

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> I do think that the FF in GPL is better than the NR series, but still not > accurate enough to use a FF wheel for. IMHO, that is why I like non FF. > Given they are both evils, I like to say that I choose the lessor of the 2 > in using a fake, phoney, not worth using TSW with a centering spring...[no > need to respond to me Gerry, I killfile opinion staters that hold out their > opinion as fact, sadly you made that list today...] > > I agree with your opinion on FF Tom, flame-on everyone else.

Made up name, junk email address, typical attitude!

So let me get this straight, you are now calling me one of those "aliens" who cheats and has no character!? While also accusing me of assassinating the West Bros, which is why WSC has not been released?! I can read between the lines! ;) Scott PA-Scott P.S. - Anyone know the release date for WSC? *hides* "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:r5Re8.5483$[email hidden]... > Lol.....Scott....stop goofing around. We get a good, serious discussion > going here and you want to degrade it into a character assassinationthread.

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> Next, you'll be asking the "aliens" to tell us all how they cheat? > ......lol..... > > Tom > > PS: Just to make perfectly sure some of you understand......I don't think > any of the fast sim drivers cheat.....at least not to be fast....I don't > know what else anyone does in the "cheat" thing anyway. I was making a > joke...its only a joke, okay? > > > "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:hRPe8.8441$[email hidden]... > > OK.. now let's take this into another debate. How does this effect or > get > > applied to the sim racers where "having" a brain is debateable? =) > > > > Scott > > PA-Scott > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]... > > > Hi guys.....this might be a bit of a long post, but its germane to the > > > "cockpit verses roof cam" thread.....and might be of some interest: > > > > > > > >

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:42:52 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Sarah.... Pabst posting in HTML format.. my nightmare has come true :-/ Andre

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:11:19 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote: >PS: Just to make perfectly sure some of you understand......I don't think >any of the fast sim drivers cheat.....at least not to be fast....I don't >know what else anyone does in the "cheat" thing anyway. I was making a >joke...its only a joke, okay? Only after 4 months you tell me.. oh well, now I can cancel my daily psychiatric sessions :) Andre

Let's continue this via email. Please contact me by email, I'll make an offer by email in reply. Or should I write to the hotmail address your message header shows (i.e. do you ever check email that address - I have a hotmail address too which I never check)? If not, please send me an email to the address my message header shows. You wouldn't be laying the wheel off on me, you'd be doing me a favour. Achim "CarGuy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:c6Re8.73481$[email hidden]...

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> > Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:a5gmbg$789u0$[email hidden]... > > would you sell me your LWFF? > > > > Achim > > > > > > > > I would, but I am a nice, outgoing conservative guy. I'd feel guilty

laying > it off on ya. How much are they worth nowadays anyway? Mine was bought new > and ran about 60 races on it, otherwise dent and scratch free. > >

Andre Warringa wrote:

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> > On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:42:52 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Sarah.... > > Pabst posting in HTML format.. my nightmare has come true :-/

ROFL I have an ISP that don't allow HTML or attachments on their news server, guess I'm lucky.....:-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com http://www.teammirage.com "Animation isn't the illusion of life; it is life" --Chuck Jones (1912-2002)--

I snagged mine on eBay for $43 shipped, which seems to be a bit on the lower side... Personally, I love these wheels, this is the second one I've gotten. Infinitely more durable than my trusty old Thrustmasters ever were - a T1 and a GP1 which are both just short of falling apart if you look at them the wrong way. They've each gone through a few bungees, pots, and springs...and definitely show the wear as soon as you start trying to use them. Oh well, they did last about 8 years. Milhouse "CarGuy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:c6Re8.73481$[email hidden]...

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> > Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:a5gmbg$789u0$[email hidden]... > > would you sell me your LWFF? > > > > Achim > > > > > > > > I would, but I am a nice, outgoing conservative guy. I'd feel guilty

laying > it off on ya. How much are they worth nowadays anyway? Mine was bought new > and ran about 60 races on it, otherwise dent and scratch free. > >

Why are people being so crazy about what Tom writes? So, he drops in a few peoples names who have tested his sim ... your problem is what??? Surely he's just trying to emphasize that real racing drivers have liked what they've seen in PC games ... er, simulations ;o) This can't be a bad thing, no, ... eh? Also, if he is constantly around race tracks then he's probably going to meet these guys and so naming them, to him, is surely nothing special. I've previously been in the media business and met a fair few, so called, celebrities and once you've met one, they're all the same ... i.e. normal people! :O) - well, fairly ... and only some of them! I'm sure that some of my friends started thinking, "Stupid name dropper!", so at one point I actually appologised and asked if they thought I was name dropping - but to my suprise they seemed to understand that in my job I met these people on a day-to-day basis and so, of course, I'd mention them in my conversations with others. It's just like saying: "I was chatting to Bob in manufacturing ...", but instead Bob is a bloke from the tele, get it? Anyway, it seems that you're doing a good job Tom and I (and my wife who's just seen the links you posted) like to see your, somewhat controvertial at times, points of view ... :o) Cheers, Paul T ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Paul Thorp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5gjgk$so5$[email hidden]... Tom, Not to be rude, but who ARE you? I've heard my husband talk about you in context with sim stuff, but he doesn't actually know what you do, apart from you used to write a small column @ HighGear - which I knew already, dosy git!?! :o) You say: "The following drivers ran for more than a half hour in our simulator at various places and times." So, what is your simulator? Any pictures of it and the other (name dropped??? - sorry, couldn't resist - ;o) people that have used it? Many thanks, Sarah T P.S. What's wrong with name dropping if it helps emphasize a point? :O) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]...

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> Hi guys.....this might be a bit of a long post, but its germane to the > "cockpit verses roof cam" thread.....and might be of some interest: > > **The PR 6/10 Rule** > We have a rule around here (at PR) we call the "6/10 Rule"......this has > evolved over the several years we have been actively trying to "bridge the > gap" between real-life racing and sim racing (primarily with real-life > drivers we encounter through our activities at nearby Sears Point raceway). > > It goes like this: "When driving a race car, let's arbitrarily say there's > something like ten things......sensory inputs and combinations > thereof......that a real race car driver gets from the > car/track/speed....etc. In one of our simulators, the *6/10 Rule* says, "If > you give the sim driver's brain 5 or 6 of those things very > realistically....his/her brain will start filling in the rest of the missing > items." > > I won't go into all the reasons and "proof" we have established here over > the last three years.....but we are confident this "rule" exists and I can > state many examples of essential proof that it does. Let me just give you > one...."How come I get sick running Bristol....the high banks don't put > G-force on my brain in the sim.....but I get sick and have actually thrown > up before...in my sim seat? My brain is "simulating" some of the G-force > for me.....even though it doesn't really exist in my sim seat. > > If you can accept this "rule" as reality.....then it brings up an > interesting prospect! It means its easier to fool Jeff Gordon's brain in > one of our cockpits....than a person who has never driven a race car. In > fact, I believe that's just the opposite of what most people would think. > At least, if we go by the thousands of times we've been asked at some of our > sim displays at tracks and conventions, "Yeah, but is this kind of racing > simulator realistic? Would a real race car driver think this is realistic?" > Actually, real race car drivers are more readily "engaged" by a good > simulator than are non-race car drivers....because their brains are more > tuned in.....they are used to being in a race car and if we give them 5 or 6 > inputs really well....they quickly fill in the others in an even more > engaging way..... than does a brain that's never been in a real race car. > > Here's a list of some *known* drivers we've had in our simulators over the > last three years. We've had hundreds more than these....but I'm only > listing the driver's most of you would know. I am not "name dropping"....if > I listed these drivers and they indeed had never been in one of our > simulators....then that would be "name dropping".....I hope some of you are > clear about that? I have either actually run with these guys side by side > on a dual simulator LAN connection, or stood at their side and watched them > run some one else...or they were running solo. Every one of these guys got > out of our sim with the same tell-tale body conditions that you see when > they climb out of a real race car (on TV). Their heart rates were elevated, > they were flushed, sweating and weak-kneed.....as they are when climbing out > of a real race car. The following drivers ran for more than a half hour in > our simulator at various places and times....in some cases, several hours > over multiple sessions: Jeff Gordon, Robby Gordon, Randy Pobst, Bobby > LaBonte, Dale-Jr., Ward Burton, Steve Park, Alan McNish, Ron Hornaday, Boris > Said.....to name a few that most of you should know. As a group.....our > "questions" about how engaged they were answered something like, "It was a > blast...and I had the true sense that I was in my race car (or in a race > car)." Not one of them thought it was stupid...or too gamey! > > By the way, one of the "applications" of the *6/10 Rule* is this: If you > give the brain one item out of the ten....in an **unrealistic way**.....then > it will discount all the others and not "engage" the sim driver's brain at > all. This is why we are very careful not to use things such as force > feedback in our sims, or attempt to simulate G-force in any way. Its not > that force feed back can't be accurately simulated through the controls > (say...the movement of the wheel when running over a curb)....its that it > can't be timed accurately and realistically enough with the "screen > event"......we keep hoping it will improve over time but so far, it has not. > FF is fun....but as currently implemented in every race sim we know > of....its not realistic enough...... so we don't use it in our > simulator/cockpits. > > The same thing would apply with the roof cam verses cockpit view discussed > below. One engages you because its more realistic to the brain....the other > does not (or not at the same level)...and causes all the others to be > discounted by the brain. > > Most of what we do in our simulators can be done by all of you with your > rigs at home. Its not earth-shattering stuff...its just carefully > orchestrated combinations of site, sound, feel and environment. I'd be glad > to discuss with you how/what we use....but it should probably be in a > separate thread.....if someone is interested. > > Tom > >

>"Gavel" <[email hidden]> wrote > So, how come, in the sim world, non race car drivers are by far the better > sim racers? Not being contentious, just curious . Really Greg? I was thinking about this, and I'm not sure if it's true or not. Perhaps, it's more that the number of non-racers is so high compared to racers, that they are bound to have select fews who have great talent. I mean it's just a pool of people vs. another, at a ratio incredibly high. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote > So let me get this straight, you are now calling me one of those "aliens" > who cheats and has no character!? Well he has the "no character" part completely true ;-D -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Oh the irony! Don't you have a Trekkie convention to go to? =P Scott PA-Scott "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:RwVe8.14014$[email hidden]... > >"Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote > > So let me get this straight, you are now calling me one of those"aliens"

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> > who cheats and has no character!? > > > Well he has the "no character" part completely true ;-D > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

What's WSC? :) -John "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:d6Te8.8482$[email hidden]... > So let me get this straight, you are now calling me one of those "aliens" > who cheats and has no character!? While also accusing me of assassinating > the West Bros, which is why WSC has not been released?! I can readbetween

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> the lines! > > ;) > > Scott > PA-Scott > > P.S. - Anyone know the release date for WSC? *hides* > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:r5Re8.5483$[email hidden]... > > Lol.....Scott....stop goofing around. We get a good, serious discussion > > going here and you want to degrade it into a character assassination > thread. > > Next, you'll be asking the "aliens" to tell us all how they cheat? > > ......lol..... > > > > Tom > > > > PS: Just to make perfectly sure some of you understand......I don't

think

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> > any of the fast sim drivers cheat.....at least not to be fast....I don't > > know what else anyone does in the "cheat" thing anyway. I was making a > > joke...its only a joke, okay? > > > > > > "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:hRPe8.8441$[email hidden]... > > > OK.. now let's take this into another debate. How does this effect

or

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> > get > > > applied to the sim racers where "having" a brain is debateable? =) > > > > > > Scott > > > PA-Scott > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]... > > > > Hi guys.....this might be a bit of a long post, but its germane to

the

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> > > > "cockpit verses roof cam" thread.....and might be of some interest: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Gavel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > So, how come, in the sim world, non race car drivers are by far the better > sim racers? Not being contentious, just curious . Because non racers have all the time in the world to practice/screw off and try wild stuff with their online buds. Because they are usually young punks who have too much free time on their hands. They should be out working and saving for college so I don't have to pay their unemployment when they quit school at 16:-) Seriously, I do not think they get bored of the sim because they've never felt what real racing feels like....hence, they know how to "beat" the game better, not drive better. I know this guy that practiced 3 times a week every week and was inside the top 5 most of the time on TEN rankings. Then, he tired of sim racing, quit practicing and now a few years later...HE SUCKS!!! But he can STILL kick ass...if he wanted to:-) LOL!!!!!!!!!!! My final answer is time....non racers have a larger interest than those that have experienced the real thing. Therefore, they practice harder and more frequently....but lest we forget, they are still punks!! hehe. Naz"T"

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]>... > ..."How come I get sick running Bristol....the high banks don't put > G-force on my brain in the sim.....but I get sick and have actually thrown > up before...in my sim seat? My brain is "simulating" some of the G-force > for me.....even though it doesn't really exist in my sim seat. While I agree with what you are saying, I don't believe that this is an example of it. I've been playing computer games for a long time (not just race sims) and this phenomonon of getting sick has been fairly common since 3D engines started to be used. Go play the old Wolfenstein3D for a few hours. I'm certain you will get sick and it's by no means an accurate sim of walking down a corridor which doesn't make you sick in real life. I think the problem is that the geometry transformations are not correct as you move through the 3D space causing a discrepancy between what you brain expects and what your eyes see resulting in some form of motion sickness. I don't have any Nascar games but maybe the different angle of banking the track in question results in the game engine miscalculating the geometry. This does happen in some FPS games. They are fine if you walk around looking straight ahead but if you move around looking straight up or down the geometry is noticably incorrect and the sickness occurs. Maybe people leaning in corners while sim driving would be a better example, I'm sure just about everyone does it. :-) All part of immersion level/suspension of belief. Regards, Darren

>"Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote > Oh the irony! Don't you have a Trekkie convention to go to? =P Yep, I'm send there to annoy the Trekkies, I have already my plan all written down to make them pay for being nerds ;-) It's mostly me disguised as Darth Vader saying "Fucking Trekkies" in his deep voice all the time LOL -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Gavel wrote: > > So, how come, in the sim world, non race car drivers are by far the better > sim racers? Not being contentious, just curious . Maybe since they so readily identify with the environment, they are busy getting queasy & throwing up while we just happily race along? :-) -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

Good observation, Francois....I think that is part of the reason as well as some of the things I mentioned in my reply to Gavel's questions. TP "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:JuVe8.14001$[email hidden]... > >"Gavel" <[email hidden]> wrote > > So, how come, in the sim world, non race car drivers are by far thebetter > > sim racers? Not being contentious, just curious . > > > Really Greg? I was thinking about this, and I'm not sure if it's true or > not. Perhaps, it's more that the number of non-racers is so high compared > to racers, that they are bound to have select fews who have great talent.I

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> mean it's just a pool of people vs. another, at a ratio incredibly high. > > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > >

ROFLMAO.......yeah, ditto! TP "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:d6Te8.8482$[email hidden]... > So let me get this straight, you are now calling me one of those "aliens" > who cheats and has no character!? While also accusing me of assassinating > the West Bros, which is why WSC has not been released?! I can readbetween

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> the lines! > > ;) > > Scott > PA-Scott > > P.S. - Anyone know the release date for WSC? *hides* > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:r5Re8.5483$[email hidden]... > > Lol.....Scott....stop goofing around. We get a good, serious discussion > > going here and you want to degrade it into a character assassination > thread. > > Next, you'll be asking the "aliens" to tell us all how they cheat? > > ......lol..... > > > > Tom > > > > PS: Just to make perfectly sure some of you understand......I don't

think

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> > any of the fast sim drivers cheat.....at least not to be fast....I don't > > know what else anyone does in the "cheat" thing anyway. I was making a > > joke...its only a joke, okay? > > > > > > "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:hRPe8.8441$[email hidden]... > > > OK.. now let's take this into another debate. How does this effect

or

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> > get > > > applied to the sim racers where "having" a brain is debateable? =) > > > > > > Scott > > > PA-Scott > > > > > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]... > > > > Hi guys.....this might be a bit of a long post, but its germane to

the

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> > > > "cockpit verses roof cam" thread.....and might be of some interest: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Scott....he is a "Star Wars" fan......not a "rekkie-trekkie".... He's being nice to me because he knows I know George Lucas.....had lunch with him just last week in fact......lol... TP "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3c7c2ce3$[email hidden]...

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> Oh the irony! Don't you have a Trekkie convention to go to? =P > > Scott > PA-Scott > > > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:RwVe8.14014$[email hidden]... > > >"Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > So let me get this straight, you are now calling me one of those > "aliens" > > > who cheats and has no character!? > > > > > > Well he has the "no character" part completely true ;-D > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > > > > > > >

Lol...Andre......you know damn well I never said (seriously) that the aliens cheat... It was a joke....but a bad one and I didn't put a smiley face in......I'm so bad. TP "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:11:19 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >PS: Just to make perfectly sure some of you understand......I don'tthink

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> >any of the fast sim drivers cheat.....at least not to be fast....I don't > >know what else anyone does in the "cheat" thing anyway. I was making a > >joke...its only a joke, okay? > > Only after 4 months you tell me.. oh well, now I can cancel my daily > psychiatric sessions :) > > Andre

Andre.... I think that was because Sarah's post was in HTML format....and my "reader" is set to "respond in the same format as the sender".....sorry about that. TP "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:42:52 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Sarah.... > > Pabst posting in HTML format.. my nightmare has come true :-/ > > Andre

Nice to meet you, Paul. And your wife's post was appreciated. Regards, Tom "Paul Thorp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5h5j5$avo$[email hidden]... Why are people being so crazy about what Tom writes? So, he drops in a few peoples names who have tested his sim ... your problem is what??? Surely he's just trying to emphasize that real racing drivers have liked what they've seen in PC games ... er, simulations ;o) This can't be a bad thing, no, ... eh? Also, if he is constantly around race tracks then he's probably going to meet these guys and so naming them, to him, is surely nothing special. I've previously been in the media business and met a fair few, so called, celebrities and once you've met one, they're all the same ... i.e. normal people! :O) - well, fairly ... and only some of them! I'm sure that some of my friends started thinking, "Stupid name dropper!", so at one point I actually appologised and asked if they thought I was name dropping - but to my suprise they seemed to understand that in my job I met these people on a day-to-day basis and so, of course, I'd mention them in my conversations with others. It's just like saying: "I was chatting to Bob in manufacturing ...", but instead Bob is a bloke from the tele, get it? Anyway, it seems that you're doing a good job Tom and I (and my wife who's just seen the links you posted) like to see your, somewhat controvertial at times, points of view ... :o) Cheers, Paul T ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - "Paul Thorp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5gjgk$so5$[email hidden]... Tom, Not to be rude, but who ARE you? I've heard my husband talk about you in context with sim stuff, but he doesn't actually know what you do, apart from you used to write a small column @ HighGear - which I knew already, dosy git!?! :o) You say: "The following drivers ran for more than a half hour in our simulator at various places and times." So, what is your simulator? Any pictures of it and the other (name dropped??? - sorry, couldn't resist - ;o) people that have used it? Many thanks, Sarah T P.S. What's wrong with name dropping if it helps emphasize a point? :O) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]...

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> Hi guys.....this might be a bit of a long post, but its germane to the > "cockpit verses roof cam" thread.....and might be of some interest: > > **The PR 6/10 Rule** > We have a rule around here (at PR) we call the "6/10 Rule"......this has > evolved over the several years we have been actively trying to "bridge the > gap" between real-life racing and sim racing (primarily with real-life > drivers we encounter through our activities at nearby Sears Point

raceway). > > It goes like this: "When driving a race car, let's arbitrarily saythere's > something like ten things......sensory inputs and combinations > thereof......that a real race car driver gets from the > car/track/speed....etc. In one of our simulators, the *6/10 Rule* says,"If > you give the sim driver's brain 5 or 6 of those things very > realistically....his/her brain will start filling in the rest of themissing

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> items." > > I won't go into all the reasons and "proof" we have established here over > the last three years.....but we are confident this "rule" exists and I can > state many examples of essential proof that it does. Let me just give you > one...."How come I get sick running Bristol....the high banks don't put > G-force on my brain in the sim.....but I get sick and have actually thrown > up before...in my sim seat? My brain is "simulating" some of the G-force > for me.....even though it doesn't really exist in my sim seat. > > If you can accept this "rule" as reality.....then it brings up an > interesting prospect! It means its easier to fool Jeff Gordon's brain in > one of our cockpits....than a person who has never driven a race car. In > fact, I believe that's just the opposite of what most people would think. > At least, if we go by the thousands of times we've been asked at some of

our > sim displays at tracks and conventions, "Yeah, but is this kind of racing > simulator realistic? Would a real race car driver think this isrealistic?" > Actually, real race car drivers are more readily "engaged" by a good > simulator than are non-race car drivers....because their brains are more > tuned in.....they are used to being in a race car and if we give them 5 or6 > inputs really well....they quickly fill in the others in an even more > engaging way..... than does a brain that's never been in a real race car. > > Here's a list of some *known* drivers we've had in our simulators over the > last three years. We've had hundreds more than these....but I'm only > listing the driver's most of you would know. I am not "namedropping"....if > I listed these drivers and they indeed had never been in one of our > simulators....then that would be "name dropping".....I hope some of youare > clear about that? I have either actually run with these guys side by side > on a dual simulator LAN connection, or stood at their side and watchedthem > run some one else...or they were running solo. Every one of these guysgot > out of our sim with the same tell-tale body conditions that you see when > they climb out of a real race car (on TV). Their heart rates wereelevated, > they were flushed, sweating and weak-kneed.....as they are when climbingout > of a real race car. The following drivers ran for more than a half hourin > our simulator at various places and times....in some cases, several hours > over multiple sessions: Jeff Gordon, Robby Gordon, Randy Pobst, Bobby > LaBonte, Dale-Jr., Ward Burton, Steve Park, Alan McNish, Ron Hornaday,Boris

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> Said.....to name a few that most of you should know. As a group.....our > "questions" about how engaged they were answered something like, "It was a > blast...and I had the true sense that I was in my race car (or in a race > car)." Not one of them thought it was stupid...or too gamey! > > By the way, one of the "applications" of the *6/10 Rule* is this: If you > give the brain one item out of the ten....in an **unrealistic

way**.....then

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> it will discount all the others and not "engage" the sim driver's brain at > all. This is why we are very careful not to use things such as force > feedback in our sims, or attempt to simulate G-force in any way. Its not > that force feed back can't be accurately simulated through the controls > (say...the movement of the wheel when running over a curb)....its that it > can't be timed accurately and realistically enough with the "screen > event"......we keep hoping it will improve over time but so far, it has

not. > FF is fun....but as currently implemented in every race sim we know > of....its not realistic enough...... so we don't use it in our > simulator/cockpits. > > The same thing would apply with the roof cam verses cockpit view discussed > below. One engages you because its more realistic to the brain....theother > does not (or not at the same level)...and causes all the others to be > discounted by the brain. > > Most of what we do in our simulators can be done by all of you with your > rigs at home. Its not earth-shattering stuff...its just carefully > orchestrated combinations of site, sound, feel and environment. I'd beglad > to discuss with you how/what we use....but it should probably be in a > separate thread.....if someone is interested. > > Tom > >

ROFLMAO Actually Tom, that's a bit of an inside Joke from ymenard being drunk at a LAN event and yelling at some Trekkies. ;) Scott PA-Scott "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8rZe8.8287$[email hidden]... > Scott....he is a "Star Wars" fan......not a "rekkie-trekkie".... He'sbeing > nice to me because he knows I know George Lucas.....had lunch with himjust

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> last week in fact......lol... > > TP > > > "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3c7c2ce3$[email hidden]... > > Oh the irony! Don't you have a Trekkie convention to go to? =P > > > > Scott > > PA-Scott > > > > > > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:RwVe8.14014$[email hidden]... > > > >"Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > > So let me get this straight, you are now calling me one of those > > "aliens" > > > > who cheats and has no character!? > > > > > > > > > Well he has the "no character" part completely true ;-D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > > > -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ > > > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez > > > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Well Darren...your "theory" is as good as mine.....neither proven out yet, however. Thanks for the input. Tom "Darren Marsh" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:<hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]>... > > ..."How come I get sick running Bristol....the high banks don't put > > G-force on my brain in the sim.....but I get sick and have actuallythrown > > up before...in my sim seat? My brain is "simulating" some of theG-force

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> > for me.....even though it doesn't really exist in my sim seat. > > While I agree with what you are saying, I don't believe that this is > an example of it. I've been playing computer games for a long time > (not just race sims) and this phenomonon of getting sick has been > fairly common since 3D engines started to be used. Go play the old > Wolfenstein3D for a few hours. I'm certain you will get sick and it's > by no means an accurate sim of walking down a corridor which doesn't > make you sick in real life. > > I think the problem is that the geometry transformations are not > correct as you move through the 3D space causing a discrepancy between > what you brain expects and what your eyes see resulting in some form > of motion sickness. > > I don't have any Nascar games but maybe the different angle of banking > the track in question results in the game engine miscalculating the > geometry. This does happen in some FPS games. They are fine if you > walk around looking straight ahead but if you move around looking > straight up or down the geometry is noticably incorrect and the > sickness occurs. > > Maybe people leaning in corners while sim driving would be a better > example, I'm sure just about everyone does it. :-) All part of > immersion level/suspension of belief. > > Regards, > Darren

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002, Tom Pabst wrote: ... <big snip> > car/track/speed....etc. In one of our simulators, the *6/10 Rule* says, "If > you give the sim driver's brain 5 or 6 of those things very > realistically....his/her brain will start filling in the rest of the missing > items." I think that at least part of your claim runs counter to some of the work reported in the literature on simulator sickness. A lot of serious research has been done on this, over the last 40(?) years, primarily with flight simulators, but some with large driving simulators too (like the Daimler-Benz and VW simulators in Germany, etc). While you may think you are doing something new, work on simulators is on-going--time to get to a good research library and start reading if you are really serious. The way I remember one paper (and I'm sorry, but I don't have the references here) is that when the brain gets some signals that appear "real" and other signals that don't match, then the brain concludes that it has been poisoned (bad food). So, for example, the eyes report motion (from looking at a screen), but the sense of touch (butt) does not report any acceleration. This isn't far from the results of eating something that induces hallucinations...falling down and watching the walls swim<grin>. The correct response (built in from our evolution) is to vomit and get rid of the bad food -- and this is by far the best explanation for simulator sickness that I remember reading. With a sim it gets even more interesting/confusing, for example, the brain interprets depth from the 3d projection on the screen, but the eye focusing and parallax mechanisms reports that everything is the same distance from the eyes! When we did NASCAR Silicon Motor Speedway (still running at about half the original sites) we tried a lot of variations to reduce simulator sickness and were reasonably successful (still had some sick customers). But that is another story for another time--a while different world than the limited world of consumer-grade sims that run on a single PC. -- Doug Milliken http://www.millikenresearch.com <--- new book now available

>"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote > Scott....he is a "Star Wars" fan......not a "rekkie-trekkie".... He'sbeing > nice to me because he knows I know George Lucas.....had lunch with himjust > last week in fact......lol... That Trekkie thing is an old joke, from the Albany LAN two years and a half ago. Basically, Saturday night after the races me, Shawn Kimball and Mike Ramsden decided to get out and walk a little in down town Albany. We had "some" beer precedently lol, and we stopped at a pizza place. The thing that we found out, is that there were Halloween parties everywhere there, so the pizza place was filled with 15-35 year old people disguised. It was quite weird, but we laughed at them a lot (especially that blue smurf guy, LMOA!). Well exiting the place there were two guys disguised with Star Trek uniforms, so I yelled at them something like "Fucking Trekkies". Mike and Shawn told that to everybody as it was pretty funny with my accent, and it stayed since forever. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Lack of seat time is a valid point. But I kind of tend to lean toward the idea that sims aren't yet very close to simulating what they're supposed to simulate. Having said that I do beleive that GPL imo is the darned closest thing to one to date. But having never driven a real race car I only have my daily driving experience to extrapolate from. When I see real racers step into a sim and dominate from the get go, then I'll be convinced that sims have become sims. All things being equal a real driver should be able to run up front in a sim. As for the roof thing, immersion is great.But I don't wear a firesuit, helmet, nor do I turn on a space heater at my feet like ol Y2KRick did in the TEN days. I use the in car mode but I haven't a worry about those who don't. Finally, I am kind of a crab. Have been for years. Perhaps my last crabby post at you was a bit over the top. I'll apologize for that one. But I will continue to call you to task on historical inconsistency. That's fair. And I may be a crab but I'm an equal opportunity crab. Gavel "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:t_Qe8.1480$mG.2703@rwcrnsc54...

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> Gavel.... > > First....I have to say that I am surprised....and pleased that you did not > begin your post by slamming me in some way. I don't want to get into the > "past" with you.....I just wanted to tell you I think its cool that you > commented about what I said, and asked some really good questions about it > as well. Thanks. > > I have to tell you that until recently....I pretty much thought as you do > about real race drivers....especially professionals that spend most of

their > time racing......would never think a simulator was in any way equivalentto > "real-life" seat time. I was wrong about that....and I'm further proven > wrong every week or so now that we are actively out at Sears Point > regularly. > > Real race drivers....especially the pros.....are more easily engaged than > novice or non-race drivers. That's assuming...you have done a good jobwith

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> simulating the "basics" of being in a race car. > > I also agree with your observation that they are not as fast as > non-real-life sim drivers I know. In general.....you are correct they are > not. As we are able to work more and more with real-life drives in our > sims.....I am beginning to formulate....postulate is probably a better > word....... some ideas about this. Here's some of those...and some > interesting observations we've seen watching the "Jeff Gordon's" of the > world run in our sims (these aren't in any logical order....just listing > some things germane to your questions): > > 1. We are beginning to think that real-life drivers are "slow" in sims > because they treat their seat time in the sim similar to their seat time

in > a real race car. I.e.....they go slow....for many laps...trying to get a > "feel" of the car and allowing "time" for their brains to become "equally > engaged" in the sim as it is in their real car. Some can do this faster > than others. A few....never can do it. > > 2. Last year, while several Cup teams where at Sears for a two-daypractice > session in April (the race is at the end of June)....a bunch of us were > interested to see how these pro drivers tackled learning the new WC chute. > They had never seen it before that Tuesday morning session. And, one > driver....Dale, Jr. - had not been to Sears but once before. He actually > hired Boris Said for two days....to be his "Sears Point driving coach."In > the first morning session.....first time out on the track....almosteveryone > drove around very slowly (mostly in second and third gear)....for theentire

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> hour session. Only near the end of the session did we begin to hear them > shift into fourth gear going up the front straight. We had radar guns on > all of them a various parts of the track....nobody ran anything near full > race speeds....for their first hour out on the track. They all > also.......tend to do this in a sim the first time they get into it. > > 3. The combination of low seat-time in a simulator....and the fact that > they start off really slow and build up to full speed when in an

unfamiliar

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> environment.....says that they are slow just because of the lack of > seat-time....and just about nothing else. Its only a theory. > > 4. However, here's an observation that tends to support that theory...in > another way. We have a member of our staff who is a part-time ALMS > driver...and a Russell School instructor....who also hires out for private > coaching much like Boris Said regularly does. His name is Dave > McEntee.....many of you have raced with Dave in GPL on VROC over the last > year...and probably didn't know it. Dave is also an avid sim racer. He > hand built his racing cockpit in our shops....I helped him and he > painstakingly built it over a three month period. Dave probably runs

about > the same "sim seat-time" each week as most of the serious sim racers I > know.....and he's just as fast in the simulator....as he is in a real race > car....."now"...but that was not always the case. When Dave first started > sim racing with us....couple years back....he was dog slow (for a verylong > time). Now, Dave is the fastest sim driver of all the PR staff. Why? > Because he now puts in about as much seat-time in his sim...as he does in > real race cars. In fact, Dave says he feels more at "home" in his simthan > he does in a real race car......the "experience" becoming nearly equal to > him. So Gavel, I think your observation that real-life drivers tend to be > slow sim drivers....is only because they just haven't got enough seat-time > in a simulator as the fast sim drivers. You know what I mean? > > 5. One time last year, we tried to figure out how many times an averageWC > driver actually spins his car at full race speed during a season. I'm > recalling the numbers from memory....but I think we figured the average > number of spins...for an average WC driver was something like 30 times in > one season (that included all the practice time and qual seat-time...foran > entire race weekend...not just the Sunday race itself). Think about this! > The average hardcore sim driver probably spins his sim car 30 times in one > week! In a WC season...the average sim driver has 39 more times > "experience" handling a spinning race car than does a real-world WCdriver. > Does that "experience" bonus translate into more racing experience too?Of > course it does....it has to! It would be interesting if someone would > figure out how many total hours a WC driver gets behind the wheel in arace > WC car during one season.....compared to the average hardcore sim driver > over the same time period. Could somebody try doing that? I'd really be > interested in that stat! > > 6. There are some exceptions to this "observation" that real-life drivers > are slow sim drivers. Dale, Jr. is a classic example....he is not slow ina > simulator (at least not according to my observations of him driving inone). > I watched Dale and Steve Park run side by side for a half hour at Sears(it > was back in the N3 days)....and Dale was up to full race speeds within 15 > minutes.....Steve was still crashing every lap. I watched Bobby Labonte > come up to full race speeds within a few laps....carefully working his way > around the track, bringing up his speed with each lap. He never even > dropped a wheel off the track at Sears....and was running near real-lifeWC > car speeds at Sears (again in N3) within 10 or 15 laps. He is not a slow > sim driver either. > > 7. We have another member of our group who is a real-life driver withtons

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> of experience. His name is Ralph Alexander....if you guys would go to the > NASA web page, you will see that Ralph is Chief Of Instructors...for NASA > Pro Racing - SFO Region. Ralph has driven everything from Group C > prototypes in Europe to Porsche GT cars, LMP cars and open wheel sports > racers. He is one of the fastest drivers I know....even at his old age > (....lol...sorry Ralph). But...he is dog-assed slow in a simulator....and > he probably has a couple thousand hours in his simulator...or mine, over

the > last three years he's worked with us. Its a joke around > Pabst-Racing....Ralph is sooooo sloooooow. Why? I haven't got a clue. > We've worked with him countless hours......Dave McEntee even took him onas > a regular "sim student" for two months. Ralph is not any faster todaythan > the first 50 hours he drove in our sims. "For some reason"....Ralph says, > "I can't get my mind to engage me....to actually act and behave like itdoes > in a real race car." I can tell you, Ralph is frustrated by this...and he > doesn't have a clue how Dave McEntee can be so fast in a simulator. Idon't > really know how unique Ralph is among real-life drivers running in a > simulator? But I suspect....its not probably that uncommon? So Gavel,this > also could be part of the "answer" to your question about real-lifedrivers

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> being slow sim drivers....you know? > > Anyway...good questions you postulated, Gavel. Thanks for asking them. > > Tom > > > > > > "Gavel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Real race car drivers have the advantage of having "sensed"(i.e, felt g > > forces, steering wheel tension, sensation of speed etc) the environment > and > > so I suppose you're right about them having their disbelief suspended > while > > in a sim cockpit. > > So, how come, in the sim world, non race car drivers are by far the

better > > sim racers? Not being contentious, just curious . > > I'm all for bridging the gap between real racers and sim racers.However,

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> > those real racers do indeed have a long way to go to catch up with the > kids > > when it comes to sim racing. ;) > > Gavel > > > > > >

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:59:21 +0000, Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote: >Nope, how can you call the FF in GPL phoney, when it is very realistic >if setup properly. Tom even says the FF in GPL is 'dang close'. Yes, well, not that that says much :) But you're right, if you think the ff in GPL or N4/2002 is phoney, you simply haven't set it up correctly. I admit it's not perfect, but at least you can feel what the car is doing/about to do, and that is much more realistic than a centering spring. Andre

Hi Gavel, I think if you have a good real-math based physics model, and you feed it the right parameters, it can probably simulate a real car quite well already today. I also think that N2002 is doing well in this respect. Whether it's perfectly simulating a Nascar, I cannot judge, but if I look what N2002 does when I drive it on the limit under all sorts of conditions, and compare that to real cars driven on or above the limit, then I must say that N2002 is doing a good job. One issue with driving sims as opposed to real cars is interpretation of the feedback. I.e., understanding what the car or sim car really does, and what signals it sends you that tell you what it does. In a real car, it takes you quite a while to fully understand what it does around the limit, why, and how it tells you what it does. It actually takes you a couple of months or even years after you've made your drivers licence, depending on how often you practise and drive on the limit. But even if from day 1 you'd go racing with it, I'm sure you'd need perhaps a year to become _really_ proficient? Experience can be replaced by nothing. That is the same in a sim car, in every new sim, and in a good sim like N2002 a certain amount of re-learning is required even when you change the setup radically. You have to learn to understand what it does. And since a sim car will only to an extent be able (today) to give you the same feedback as a real car, it'll take anyone a while to learn to interpret the signals. I think what we'd need for your hypothesis about the real racers to work in N2002 isn't actually better physics or better simulation, but better (i.e. more similar to their real cars) feedback. I.e., a 6 axes of freedom simulator chamber possibly suspended on all four sides to simulate individual wheels, full surround sound, a 180� spherical screen to view the action on, etc. As for the pure physics, I think N2002 is doing quite well. Achim "Gavel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Lack of seat time is a valid point. But I kind of tend to lean towardthe > idea that sims aren't yet very close to simulating what they're supposedto > simulate. Having said that I do beleive that GPL imo is the darned closest > thing to one to date. But having never driven a real race car I only havemy > daily driving experience to extrapolate from. > When I see real racers step into a sim and dominate from the get go,then > I'll be convinced that sims have become sims. All things being equal areal > driver should be able to run up front in a sim. > As for the roof thing, immersion is great.But I don't wear a firesuit, > helmet, nor do I turn on a space heater at my feet like ol Y2KRick did in > the TEN days. I use the in car mode but I haven't a worry about those who > don't. > Finally, I am kind of a crab. Have been for years. Perhaps my lastcrabby > post at you was a bit over the top. I'll apologize for that one. But Iwill > continue to call you to task on historical inconsistency. That's fair. AndI

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> may be a crab but I'm an equal opportunity crab. > Gavel > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:t_Qe8.1480$mG.2703@rwcrnsc54... > > Gavel.... > > > > First....I have to say that I am surprised....and pleased that you did

not > > begin your post by slamming me in some way. I don't want to get intothe > > "past" with you.....I just wanted to tell you I think its cool that you > > commented about what I said, and asked some really good questions aboutit > > as well. Thanks. > > > > I have to tell you that until recently....I pretty much thought as youdo

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> > about real race drivers....especially professionals that spend most of > their > > time racing......would never think a simulator was in any way equivalent > to > > "real-life" seat time. I was wrong about that....and I'm further proven > > wrong every week or so now that we are actively out at Sears Point > > regularly. > > > > Real race drivers....especially the pros.....are more easily engaged

than > > novice or non-race drivers. That's assuming...you have done a good job > with > > simulating the "basics" of being in a race car. > > > > I also agree with your observation that they are not as fast as > > non-real-life sim drivers I know. In general.....you are correct theyare

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> > not. As we are able to work more and more with real-life drives in our > > sims.....I am beginning to formulate....postulate is probably a better > > word....... some ideas about this. Here's some of those...and some > > interesting observations we've seen watching the "Jeff Gordon's" of the > > world run in our sims (these aren't in any logical order....just listing > > some things germane to your questions): > > > > 1. We are beginning to think that real-life drivers are "slow" in sims > > because they treat their seat time in the sim similar to their seat time > in > > a real race car. I.e.....they go slow....for many laps...trying to get

a > > "feel" of the car and allowing "time" for their brains to become"equally

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> > engaged" in the sim as it is in their real car. Some can do this faster > > than others. A few....never can do it. > > > > 2. Last year, while several Cup teams where at Sears for a two-day > practice > > session in April (the race is at the end of June)....a bunch of us were > > interested to see how these pro drivers tackled learning the new WC

chute. > > They had never seen it before that Tuesday morning session. And, one > > driver....Dale, Jr. - had not been to Sears but once before. Heactually

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> > hired Boris Said for two days....to be his "Sears Point driving coach." > In > > the first morning session.....first time out on the track....almost > everyone > > drove around very slowly (mostly in second and third gear)....for the > entire > > hour session. Only near the end of the session did we begin to hear

them > > shift into fourth gear going up the front straight. We had radar gunson > > all of them a various parts of the track....nobody ran anything nearfull

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> > race speeds....for their first hour out on the track. They all > > also.......tend to do this in a sim the first time they get into it. > > > > 3. The combination of low seat-time in a simulator....and the fact that > > they start off really slow and build up to full speed when in an > unfamiliar > > environment.....says that they are slow just because of the lack of > > seat-time....and just about nothing else. Its only a theory. > > > > 4. However, here's an observation that tends to support that

theory...in > > another way. We have a member of our staff who is a part-time ALMS > > driver...and a Russell School instructor....who also hires out forprivate > > coaching much like Boris Said regularly does. His name is Dave > > McEntee.....many of you have raced with Dave in GPL on VROC over thelast > > year...and probably didn't know it. Dave is also an avid sim racer. He > > hand built his racing cockpit in our shops....I helped him and he > > painstakingly built it over a three month period. Dave probably runs > about > > the same "sim seat-time" each week as most of the serious sim racers I > > know.....and he's just as fast in the simulator....as he is in a realrace > > car....."now"...but that was not always the case. When Dave firststarted > > sim racing with us....couple years back....he was dog slow (for a very > long > > time). Now, Dave is the fastest sim driver of all the PR staff. Why? > > Because he now puts in about as much seat-time in his sim...as he doesin > > real race cars. In fact, Dave says he feels more at "home" in his sim > than > > he does in a real race car......the "experience" becoming nearly equalto > > him. So Gavel, I think your observation that real-life drivers tend tobe > > slow sim drivers....is only because they just haven't got enoughseat-time

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> > in a simulator as the fast sim drivers. You know what I mean? > > > > 5. One time last year, we tried to figure out how many times an average > WC > > driver actually spins his car at full race speed during a season. I'm > > recalling the numbers from memory....but I think we figured the average > > number of spins...for an average WC driver was something like 30 times

in > > one season (that included all the practice time and qual seat-time...for > an > > entire race weekend...not just the Sunday race itself). Think aboutthis! > > The average hardcore sim driver probably spins his sim car 30 times inone

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> > week! In a WC season...the average sim driver has 39 more times > > "experience" handling a spinning race car than does a real-world WC > driver. > > Does that "experience" bonus translate into more racing experience too? > Of > > course it does....it has to! It would be interesting if someone would > > figure out how many total hours a WC driver gets behind the wheel in a > race > > WC car during one season.....compared to the average hardcore sim driver > > over the same time period. Could somebody try doing that? I'd really

be > > interested in that stat! > > > > 6. There are some exceptions to this "observation" that real-lifedrivers > > are slow sim drivers. Dale, Jr. is a classic example....he is not slowin > a > > simulator (at least not according to my observations of him driving in > one). > > I watched Dale and Steve Park run side by side for a half hour at Sears > (it > > was back in the N3 days)....and Dale was up to full race speeds within15 > > minutes.....Steve was still crashing every lap. I watched Bobby Labonte > > come up to full race speeds within a few laps....carefully working hisway > > around the track, bringing up his speed with each lap. He never even > > dropped a wheel off the track at Sears....and was running near real-life > WC > > car speeds at Sears (again in N3) within 10 or 15 laps. He is not aslow > > sim driver either. > > > > 7. We have another member of our group who is a real-life driver with > tons > > of experience. His name is Ralph Alexander....if you guys would go tothe > > NASA web page, you will see that Ralph is Chief Of Instructors...forNASA > > Pro Racing - SFO Region. Ralph has driven everything from Group C > > prototypes in Europe to Porsche GT cars, LMP cars and open wheel sports > > racers. He is one of the fastest drivers I know....even at his old age > > (....lol...sorry Ralph). But...he is dog-assed slow in asimulator....and

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> > he probably has a couple thousand hours in his simulator...or mine, over > the > > last three years he's worked with us. Its a joke around > > Pabst-Racing....Ralph is sooooo sloooooow. Why? I haven't got a clue. > > We've worked with him countless hours......Dave McEntee even took him on > as > > a regular "sim student" for two months. Ralph is not any faster today > than > > the first 50 hours he drove in our sims. "For some reason"....Ralph

says, > > "I can't get my mind to engage me....to actually act and behave like it > does > > in a real race car." I can tell you, Ralph is frustrated by this...andhe

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> > doesn't have a clue how Dave McEntee can be so fast in a simulator. I > don't > > really know how unique Ralph is among real-life drivers running in a > > simulator? But I suspect....its not probably that uncommon? So Gavel, > this > > also could be part of the "answer" to your question about real-life > drivers > > being slow sim drivers....you know? > > > > Anyway...good questions you postulated, Gavel. Thanks for asking them. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > "Gavel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Real race car drivers have the advantage of having "sensed"(i.e, felt

g > > > forces, steering wheel tension, sensation of speed etc) theenvironment

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> > and > > > so I suppose you're right about them having their disbelief suspended > > while > > > in a sim cockpit. > > > So, how come, in the sim world, non race car drivers are by far the > better > > > sim racers? Not being contentious, just curious . > > > I'm all for bridging the gap between real racers and sim racers. > However, > > > those real racers do indeed have a long way to go to catch up with the > > kids > > > when it comes to sim racing. ;) > > > Gavel > > > > > > > > > > > >

"ymenard" as it was pretty funny with my accent, and > it stayed since forever. You have an Accent?? is that incar or flying above it? :) dave henrie

Gavel... I like that approach you are taking here.....but here's something you might consider that would alter your thinking just a bit: Let's take two brains.....call them "Brain-A" and "Brain-B"..........by using the term "brain"....I'm talking about the entire mechanism of all senses...and the processing of them by the brain....including the "learning" process. Now.....let's define their racing experience as follows: "Brain-A"....has never been in a real race car....never driven any car "at the limits"....and has never been in a racing simulator. It has an RIQ (Racing Intelligence Quotient) of 150. "Brain-B".....is a professional race driver's brain (let's say Tony Stewart's brain....whose background in various types of race cars is quite wide and diverse).....and it has never been in a racing simulator. It has an RIQ also of 150. Now let's put both brain's in our racing simulator for the first time (the same simulator and let's say this simulator does an excellent job of producing 6 out of the 10 inputs from a real race car....really well). Now, let's open for discussion the following postulation: Which "brain" comes up to full race speeds first...on a track neither brain has ever driven on? I'd be interested to hear your ideas....and others. Tom PS: Think I'll post this again as a new post/thread....so we can see the comments from everyone separately. "Gavel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Lack of seat time is a valid point. But I kind of tend to lean towardthe > idea that sims aren't yet very close to simulating what they're supposedto > simulate. Having said that I do beleive that GPL imo is the darned closest > thing to one to date. But having never driven a real race car I only havemy > daily driving experience to extrapolate from. > When I see real racers step into a sim and dominate from the get go,then > I'll be convinced that sims have become sims. All things being equal areal > driver should be able to run up front in a sim. > As for the roof thing, immersion is great.But I don't wear a firesuit, > helmet, nor do I turn on a space heater at my feet like ol Y2KRick did in > the TEN days. I use the in car mode but I haven't a worry about those who > don't. > Finally, I am kind of a crab. Have been for years. Perhaps my lastcrabby > post at you was a bit over the top. I'll apologize for that one. But Iwill > continue to call you to task on historical inconsistency. That's fair. AndI

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> may be a crab but I'm an equal opportunity crab. > Gavel > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:t_Qe8.1480$mG.2703@rwcrnsc54... > > Gavel.... > > > > First....I have to say that I am surprised....and pleased that you did

not > > begin your post by slamming me in some way. I don't want to get intothe > > "past" with you.....I just wanted to tell you I think its cool that you > > commented about what I said, and asked some really good questions aboutit > > as well. Thanks. > > > > I have to tell you that until recently....I pretty much thought as youdo

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> > about real race drivers....especially professionals that spend most of > their > > time racing......would never think a simulator was in any way equivalent > to > > "real-life" seat time. I was wrong about that....and I'm further proven > > wrong every week or so now that we are actively out at Sears Point > > regularly. > > > > Real race drivers....especially the pros.....are more easily engaged

than > > novice or non-race drivers. That's assuming...you have done a good job > with > > simulating the "basics" of being in a race car. > > > > I also agree with your observation that they are not as fast as > > non-real-life sim drivers I know. In general.....you are correct theyare

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> > not. As we are able to work more and more with real-life drives in our > > sims.....I am beginning to formulate....postulate is probably a better > > word....... some ideas about this. Here's some of those...and some > > interesting observations we've seen watching the "Jeff Gordon's" of the > > world run in our sims (these aren't in any logical order....just listing > > some things germane to your questions): > > > > 1. We are beginning to think that real-life drivers are "slow" in sims > > because they treat their seat time in the sim similar to their seat time > in > > a real race car. I.e.....they go slow....for many laps...trying to get

a > > "feel" of the car and allowing "time" for their brains to become"equally

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> > engaged" in the sim as it is in their real car. Some can do this faster > > than others. A few....never can do it. > > > > 2. Last year, while several Cup teams where at Sears for a two-day > practice > > session in April (the race is at the end of June)....a bunch of us were > > interested to see how these pro drivers tackled learning the new WC

chute. > > They had never seen it before that Tuesday morning session. And, one > > driver....Dale, Jr. - had not been to Sears but once before. Heactually

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> > hired Boris Said for two days....to be his "Sears Point driving coach." > In > > the first morning session.....first time out on the track....almost > everyone > > drove around very slowly (mostly in second and third gear)....for the > entire > > hour session. Only near the end of the session did we begin to hear

them > > shift into fourth gear going up the front straight. We had radar gunson > > all of them a various parts of the track....nobody ran anything nearfull

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> > race speeds....for their first hour out on the track. They all > > also.......tend to do this in a sim the first time they get into it. > > > > 3. The combination of low seat-time in a simulator....and the fact that > > they start off really slow and build up to full speed when in an > unfamiliar > > environment.....says that they are slow just because of the lack of > > seat-time....and just about nothing else. Its only a theory. > > > > 4. However, here's an observation that tends to support that

theory...in > > another way. We have a member of our staff who is a part-time ALMS > > driver...and a Russell School instructor....who also hires out forprivate > > coaching much like Boris Said regularly does. His name is Dave > > McEntee.....many of you have raced with Dave in GPL on VROC over thelast > > year...and probably didn't know it. Dave is also an avid sim racer. He > > hand built his racing cockpit in our shops....I helped him and he > > painstakingly built it over a three month period. Dave probably runs > about > > the same "sim seat-time" each week as most of the serious sim racers I > > know.....and he's just as fast in the simulator....as he is in a realrace > > car....."now"...but that was not always the case. When Dave firststarted > > sim racing with us....couple years back....he was dog slow (for a very > long > > time). Now, Dave is the fastest sim driver of all the PR staff. Why? > > Because he now puts in about as much seat-time in his sim...as he doesin > > real race cars. In fact, Dave says he feels more at "home" in his sim > than > > he does in a real race car......the "experience" becoming nearly equalto > > him. So Gavel, I think your observation that real-life drivers tend tobe > > slow sim drivers....is only because they just haven't got enoughseat-time

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> > in a simulator as the fast sim drivers. You know what I mean? > > > > 5. One time last year, we tried to figure out how many times an average > WC > > driver actually spins his car at full race speed during a season. I'm > > recalling the numbers from memory....but I think we figured the average > > number of spins...for an average WC driver was something like 30 times

in > > one season (that included all the practice time and qual seat-time...for > an > > entire race weekend...not just the Sunday race itself). Think aboutthis! > > The average hardcore sim driver probably spins his sim car 30 times inone

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> > week! In a WC season...the average sim driver has 39 more times > > "experience" handling a spinning race car than does a real-world WC > driver. > > Does that "experience" bonus translate into more racing experience too? > Of > > course it does....it has to! It would be interesting if someone would > > figure out how many total hours a WC driver gets behind the wheel in a > race > > WC car during one season.....compared to the average hardcore sim driver > > over the same time period. Could somebody try doing that? I'd really

be > > interested in that stat! > > > > 6. There are some exceptions to this "observation" that real-lifedrivers > > are slow sim drivers. Dale, Jr. is a classic example....he is not slowin > a > > simulator (at least not according to my observations of him driving in > one). > > I watched Dale and Steve Park run side by side for a half hour at Sears > (it > > was back in the N3 days)....and Dale was up to full race speeds within15 > > minutes.....Steve was still crashing every lap. I watched Bobby Labonte > > come up to full race speeds within a few laps....carefully working hisway > > around the track, bringing up his speed with each lap. He never even > > dropped a wheel off the track at Sears....and was running near real-life > WC > > car speeds at Sears (again in N3) within 10 or 15 laps. He is not aslow > > sim driver either. > > > > 7. We have another member of our group who is a real-life driver with > tons > > of experience. His name is Ralph Alexander....if you guys would go tothe > > NASA web page, you will see that Ralph is Chief Of Instructors...forNASA > > Pro Racing - SFO Region. Ralph has driven everything from Group C > > prototypes in Europe to Porsche GT cars, LMP cars and open wheel sports > > racers. He is one of the fastest drivers I know....even at his old age > > (....lol...sorry Ralph). But...he is dog-assed slow in asimulator....and

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> > he probably has a couple thousand hours in his simulator...or mine, over > the > > last three years he's worked with us. Its a joke around > > Pabst-Racing....Ralph is sooooo sloooooow. Why? I haven't got a clue. > > We've worked with him countless hours......Dave McEntee even took him on > as > > a regular "sim student" for two months. Ralph is not any faster today > than > > the first 50 hours he drove in our sims. "For some reason"....Ralph

says, > > "I can't get my mind to engage me....to actually act and behave like it > does > > in a real race car." I can tell you, Ralph is frustrated by this...andhe

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> > doesn't have a clue how Dave McEntee can be so fast in a simulator. I > don't > > really know how unique Ralph is among real-life drivers running in a > > simulator? But I suspect....its not probably that uncommon? So Gavel, > this > > also could be part of the "answer" to your question about real-life > drivers > > being slow sim drivers....you know? > > > > Anyway...good questions you postulated, Gavel. Thanks for asking them. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > "Gavel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Real race car drivers have the advantage of having "sensed"(i.e, felt

g > > > forces, steering wheel tension, sensation of speed etc) theenvironment

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> > and > > > so I suppose you're right about them having their disbelief suspended > > while > > > in a sim cockpit. > > > So, how come, in the sim world, non race car drivers are by far the > better > > > sim racers? Not being contentious, just curious . > > > I'm all for bridging the gap between real racers and sim racers. > However, > > > those real racers do indeed have a long way to go to catch up with the > > kids > > > when it comes to sim racing. ;) > > > Gavel > > > > > > > > > > > >

Hi Achim, I think you hit the nail right on the head there. It's the feedback. For me, the sensation of speed isn't there I think from lack of peripheral vision. The surety of the car sticking or unsticking to.from the track isn't there except visually. My Force RS goes quite a ways in compensating for that but it seems to me that there's a line that crosses from sim to arcade when I push the car to and beyond it's limits. When I pull off a series of particularly fast laps I feel more like I'm guessing at the sims level of adhesion to the track rather than feeling it. And thus at that point it's like I'm playing that old game Dragons Lair, where you pressed buttons in a series and waited to find out if you did it right. Do real racers driving at the edge of control feel so not in control? I dunno. I've built chairs with speakers in them, used motors hooked to microswitches to pull seatbelts tight, wore a helmet loaded with speakers for a while. It all works to a degree but it still doesn't fulfill the sensory needs. Gavel "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5iipn$7krsk$[email hidden]... > Hi Gavel, > > I think if you have a good real-math based physics model, and you feed it > the right parameters, it can probably simulate a real car quite wellalready > today. > > I also think that N2002 is doing well in this respect. Whether it's > perfectly simulating a Nascar, I cannot judge, but if I look what N2002does > when I drive it on the limit under all sorts of conditions, and comparethat > to real cars driven on or above the limit, then I must say that N2002 is > doing a good job. > > One issue with driving sims as opposed to real cars is interpretation ofthe > feedback. I.e., understanding what the car or sim car really does, andwhat > signals it sends you that tell you what it does. > > In a real car, it takes you quite a while to fully understand what it does > around the limit, why, and how it tells you what it does. It actuallytakes > you a couple of months or even years after you've made your driverslicence, > depending on how often you practise and drive on the limit. But even iffrom > day 1 you'd go racing with it, I'm sure you'd need perhaps a year tobecome > _really_ proficient? Experience can be replaced by nothing. > > That is the same in a sim car, in every new sim, and in a good sim like > N2002 a certain amount of re-learning is required even when you change the > setup radically. You have to learn to understand what it does. And since a > sim car will only to an extent be able (today) to give you the samefeedback > as a real car, it'll take anyone a while to learn to interpret thesignals. > > I think what we'd need for your hypothesis about the real racers to workin > N2002 isn't actually better physics or better simulation, but better (i.e. > more similar to their real cars) feedback. I.e., a 6 axes of freedom > simulator chamber possibly suspended on all four sides to simulate > individual wheels, full surround sound, a 180� spherical screen to viewthe

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> action on, etc. > > As for the pure physics, I think N2002 is doing quite well. > > Achim > >

Tom Pabst wrote: > > Now, let's open for discussion the following postulation: Which "brain" > comes up to full race speeds first...on a track neither brain has ever > driven on? > > I'd be interested to hear your ideas....and others. I'd speculate on "Brain-A", the none real-racer. I'd think the real world racer would identify with feelings of caution on a new unknown track due to their normal racing conditions (ability for real injuries) and would result in slower lap times. The non-racer wouldn't have these mental restrictions in place. But I could be wrong. ;-) -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Darren Marsh) writes:

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>While I agree with what you are saying, I don't believe that this is >an example of it. I've been playing computer games for a long time >(not just race sims) and this phenomonon of getting sick has been >fairly common since 3D engines started to be used. Go play the old >Wolfenstein3D for a few hours. I'm certain you will get sick and it's >by no means an accurate sim of walking down a corridor which doesn't >make you sick in real life. >

I can honestly say I *never* had this problem with Wolf3D, Doom, or even QuakeIII. I was also guilty of playing Wolf and Doom for MORE than a few hours...<g> >I think the problem is that the geometry transformations are not >correct as you move through the 3D space causing a discrepancy between >what you brain expects and what your eyes see resulting in some form >of motion sickness. I'm not getting that discrepancy, apparently. I'm wondering if I interpret things on a different level(or maybe not at ALL). I speculated about that when I mentioned that I don't seem to pickup on the feedback you need to drive a sim race car well. Thus I can't *feel* when I'm about to lose the car. Maybe it's all connected somehow, but damned if I know HOW... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 02:36:53 -0500, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > Basically, Saturday night after the races me, Shawn Kimball and Mike >Ramsden decided to get out and walk a little in down town Albany. And that was your first mistake. KFG

On 26 Feb 2002 18:14:03 -0800, [email hidden] (Darren Marsh) wrote:

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>"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]>... >> ..."How come I get sick running Bristol....the high banks don't put >> G-force on my brain in the sim.....but I get sick and have actually thrown >> up before...in my sim seat? My brain is "simulating" some of the G-force >> for me.....even though it doesn't really exist in my sim seat. > >While I agree with what you are saying, I don't believe that this is >an example of it. I've been playing computer games for a long time >(not just race sims) and this phenomonon of getting sick has been >fairly common since 3D engines started to be used. Go play the old >Wolfenstein3D for a few hours. I'm certain you will get sick and it's >by no means an accurate sim of walking down a corridor which doesn't >make you sick in real life. >

I agree with most of what Tom has said, but I'm with you and Doug on this one. What Tom is experiencing is motion sickness, which is caused NOT by the realism but by a particular lack thereof. Motion sickness is caused by the discrepency between what the inner ear senses and the eyes see. On a boat the eyes see you standing motionless in the cabin, but the inner ear feels movement, and you get seasick. In Tom's case it's the same thing but the other way around. His eyes see movement in the sim, but his inner ear feels motionless, and he gets carsick. Many people who have no real tendency to get carsick do so if they try to *read* in a car. The eyes are fixed on the relatively motionless page, and the inner ear senses movement. Tom, I'd say that this is a pretty well researched, and proven, phenomenon. Do some reading up on the causes of motion sickness. KFG

I agree as well. You get the same sensation in some FPS games (I found it really bad in Thief). It has nothing to do with your mind simulating G-forces and everything to do with motion sickness. However if getting sick makes you think it's a more real experience then more power to you :) "Kevin F. Gavitt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On 26 Feb 2002 18:14:03 -0800, [email hidden] (Darren Marsh) > wrote: > > >"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:<hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]>... > >> ..."How come I get sick running Bristol....the high banks don't put > >> G-force on my brain in the sim.....but I get sick and have actuallythrown > >> up before...in my sim seat? My brain is "simulating" some of theG-force

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> >> for me.....even though it doesn't really exist in my sim seat. > > > >While I agree with what you are saying, I don't believe that this is > >an example of it. I've been playing computer games for a long time > >(not just race sims) and this phenomonon of getting sick has been > >fairly common since 3D engines started to be used. Go play the old > >Wolfenstein3D for a few hours. I'm certain you will get sick and it's > >by no means an accurate sim of walking down a corridor which doesn't > >make you sick in real life. > > > > I agree with most of what Tom has said, but I'm with you and Doug on > this one. What Tom is experiencing is motion sickness, which is caused > NOT by the realism but by a particular lack thereof. > > Motion sickness is caused by the discrepency between what the inner > ear senses and the eyes see. On a boat the eyes see you standing > motionless in the cabin, but the inner ear feels movement, and you get > seasick. In Tom's case it's the same thing but the other way around. > His eyes see movement in the sim, but his inner ear feels motionless, > and he gets carsick. > > Many people who have no real tendency to get carsick do so if they try > to *read* in a car. The eyes are fixed on the relatively motionless > page, and the inner ear senses movement. > > Tom, I'd say that this is a pretty well researched, and proven, > phenomenon. Do some reading up on the causes of motion sickness. > > KFG

In article <hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>I have either actually run with these guys side by side >on a dual simulator LAN connection, or stood at their side and watched them >run some one else...or they were running solo. Every one of these guys got >out of our sim with the same tell-tale body conditions that you see when >they climb out of a real race car (on TV). Their heart rates were elevated, >they were flushed, sweating and weak-kneed.....as they are when climbing out >of a real race car.

We've had the same things happen to guys in our leagues after a race. This is with no special hardware, and (mostly)from people who don't have any real racing experience... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On 27 Feb 2002 21:59:23 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>In article <hyPe8.31764$[email hidden]>, "Tom Pabst" ><[email hidden]> writes: > >>I have either actually run with these guys side by side >>on a dual simulator LAN connection, or stood at their side and watched them >>run some one else...or they were running solo. Every one of these guys got >>out of our sim with the same tell-tale body conditions that you see when >>they climb out of a real race car (on TV). Their heart rates were elevated, >>they were flushed, sweating and weak-kneed.....as they are when climbing out >>of a real race car. > >We've had the same things happen to guys in our leagues after a race. This is >with no special hardware, and (mostly)from people who don't have any real >racing experience... > >Eldred >--

Yeah, there's a lot of it going on right now! I always finish a pro race at the 'ring drenched in sweat. Old time snow racers often raced in T-shirts, no heat, and no windows, and sweat like pigs in a sauna, just from the energy burned by sheer concentration. People often exhibit the same symptoms when taking tests, especially orals. KFG

[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > We've had the same things happen to guys in our leagues after a race. This is > with no special hardware, and (mostly)from people who don't have any real > racing experience... I second that. I won the league opener at Daytona in my OSCAR division and the last 10-20 laps I had to fight every second of the way to hold on to the lead. Afterwards I literally stopped the car, did some donuts, and let out a huge yell (at 1am in a shared house). The adrenaline of those last 20 laps, my tightening grip on the wheel, the sweat, the cramping leg muscles (not due to pedal placement but because of serious knee problems), the migraine from focusing so intently for so long... Now, whether these symptoms are the result of working as hard as I would in a real racecar or are psychosomatic is beyond me. I just know I feel physically and mentally exhausted after a long race. Jason

On 27 Feb 2002 21:37:41 -0800, [email hidden] (jason moyer) wrote:

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>[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > >> We've had the same things happen to guys in our leagues after a race. This is >> with no special hardware, and (mostly)from people who don't have any real >> racing experience... > >I second that. I won the league opener at Daytona in my OSCAR >division and the last 10-20 laps I had to fight every second of the >way to hold on to the lead. Afterwards I literally stopped the car, >did some donuts, and let out a huge yell (at 1am in a shared house). >The adrenaline of those last 20 laps, my tightening grip on the wheel, >the sweat, the cramping leg muscles (not due to pedal placement but >because of serious knee problems), the migraine from focusing so >intently for so long... > >Now, whether these symptoms are the result of working as hard as I >would in a real racecar or are psychosomatic is beyond me. I just >know I feel physically and mentally exhausted after a long race. > >Jason

Amen!!! My co-workers laugh when I let them know how much I sweat when I do a race. Yet, when it's over I feel beat physically - my limbs ache, my head starts 'winding down' and I need to take several moments to regain my poise. If that's only a *fraction* of what it's like after a real race, I'm going to need a lot of cash coming my way because I'd love to do it for real. BTW, I'm also a roller-coaster nut (got the card to prove it!). Interestingly, I'm also dyslexic and do not get motion sickness. When my boat went through a typhoon, I *enjoyed* it (other than the few moments when we pushed the edge and almost 'turned turtle'...). I wonder if there's any connection there or not...