If the Cockpit View In N2002 Is Realistic.....

based on the limited view a real NASCAR driver has and the way his head is so tightly restrained (how did Earnhardt smash his face against the wheel btw?), then how come the look right/left feature is in the game then? :-) Can't be realistic to have that feature if people are correct about the restricted head movement. Right? Why not simply adjust the view so we see more and scrap the look right/left option? David G Fisher

Because it's based on GPL code :) Also, one of Dale's lap belts broke; that's why. And in race car crash test video I've seen at much slower speeds, even with intact belts, the dummy's are thrown waaay forward. -John "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:m%Tf8.281901$[email hidden]...

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> based on the limited view a real NASCAR driver has and the way his head is > so tightly restrained (how did Earnhardt smash his face against the wheel > btw?), then how come the look right/left feature is in the game then? :-) > Can't be realistic to have that feature if people are correct about the > restricted head movement. Right? > > Why not simply adjust the view so we see more and scrap the look

right/left

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> option? > > David G Fisher > > > > >

"the dummy's are thrown waaay forward" Is Jeff ok? ;) "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Because it's based on GPL code :) Also, one of Dale's lap belts broke; > that's why. And in race car crash test video I've seen at much slower > speeds, even with intact belts, the dummy's are thrown waaay forward. > > -John > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:m%Tf8.281901$[email hidden]... > > based on the limited view a real NASCAR driver has and the way his head

is > > so tightly restrained (how did Earnhardt smash his face against thewheel > > btw?), then how come the look right/left feature is in the game then?:-)

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> > Can't be realistic to have that feature if people are correct about the > > restricted head movement. Right? > > > > Why not simply adjust the view so we see more and scrap the look > right/left > > option? > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > >

Personally I wouldn't want a wider FOV in the cockpit view. I agree it's too limited, but the limitation is due to aspect ratio, i.e. the only way to really make it look more realistic is to use (and for Papyrus to support) a wide screen display. If you increased the FOV with the existing cockpit view and current monitors the front window would turn into an even narrower slit than it already is, and the resulting perspective distortion would cause objects to diminish in size more rapidly with distance than they already do, making it harder to read the track and the traffic. "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:m%Tf8.281901$[email hidden]... > based on the limited view a real NASCAR driver has and the way hishead is > so tightly restrained (how did Earnhardt smash his face against thewheel > btw?), then how come the look right/left feature is in the game then?:-) > Can't be realistic to have that feature if people are correct aboutthe > restricted head movement. Right? > > Why not simply adjust the view so we see more and scrap the lookright/left

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> option? > > David G Fisher > > > > >

Lol! Yes, fortunately, he hit his head, so no worries :) -John "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:lgUf8.23344$[email hidden]... > "the dummy's are thrown waaay forward" > Is Jeff ok? ;) > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Because it's based on GPL code :) Also, one of Dale's lap beltsbroke;

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> > that's why. And in race car crash test video I've seen at much slower > > speeds, even with intact belts, the dummy's are thrown waaay forward. > > > > -John > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:m%Tf8.281901$[email hidden]... > > > based on the limited view a real NASCAR driver has and the way his

head > is > > > so tightly restrained (how did Earnhardt smash his face against the > wheel > > > btw?), then how come the look right/left feature is in the game then? > :-) > > > Can't be realistic to have that feature if people are correct aboutthe

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> > > restricted head movement. Right? > > > > > > Why not simply adjust the view so we see more and scrap the look > > right/left > > > option? > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

That's true. My point really is to show that some of the arguements people have had saying the cockpit view is realistic don't make sense if the look left/right option is available. David G Fisher "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5p3ca$8ps0h$[email hidden]...

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> Personally I wouldn't want a wider FOV in the cockpit view. I agree > it's too limited, but the limitation is due to aspect ratio, i.e. the > only way to really make it look more realistic is to use (and for > Papyrus to support) a wide screen display. If you increased the FOV > with the existing cockpit view and current monitors the front window > would turn into an even narrower slit than it already is, and the > resulting perspective distortion would cause objects to diminish in size > more rapidly with distance than they already do, making it harder to > read the track and the traffic. > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:m%Tf8.281901$[email hidden]... > > based on the limited view a real NASCAR driver has and the way his > head is > > so tightly restrained (how did Earnhardt smash his face against the > wheel > > btw?), then how come the look right/left feature is in the game then? > :-) > > Can't be realistic to have that feature if people are correct about > the > > restricted head movement. Right? > > > > Why not simply adjust the view so we see more and scrap the look > right/left > > option? > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > >

I've seen those videos too. Seems like the drivers aren't quite as restricted as some say. David G Fisher "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Because it's based on GPL code :) Also, one of Dale's lap belts broke; > that's why. And in race car crash test video I've seen at much slower > speeds, even with intact belts, the dummy's are thrown waaay forward. > > -John > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:m%Tf8.281901$[email hidden]... > > based on the limited view a real NASCAR driver has and the way his head

is > > so tightly restrained (how did Earnhardt smash his face against thewheel > > btw?), then how come the look right/left feature is in the game then?:-)

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> > Can't be realistic to have that feature if people are correct about the > > restricted head movement. Right? > > > > Why not simply adjust the view so we see more and scrap the look > right/left > > option? > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Prior to Dale's crash , they didn't use any head and neck restraint systems for one thing. Since we have to race by looking at a 2D monitor, the best way to provide us with some peripheral vision was to implememnt the kind of side view support they gave us to simulate either looking right or left with your eyes(w/o moving your head), or slight head turns to the right/left and utilizing peripheral vision. Based on the constraints of having to look at a monitor, IMO, they did a pretty darn good job. If the FOV were wider, then you would lose much of the viewing distance straight ahead, which again IMO is more important. -- Biz "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and the....." - Ash David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GtUf8.14403$[email hidden]... > That's true. > > My point really is to show that some of the arguements people have had > saying the cockpit view is realistic don't make sense if the look left/right > option is available. > > David G Fisher > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:a5p3ca$8ps0h$[email hidden]... > > Personally I wouldn't want a wider FOV in the cockpit view. I agree > > it's too limited, but the limitation is due to aspect ratio, i.e. the > > only way to really make it look more realistic is to use (and for > > Papyrus to support) a wide screen display. If you increased the FOV > > with the existing cockpit view and current monitors the front window > > would turn into an even narrower slit than it already is, and the > > resulting perspective distortion would cause objects to diminish in size > > more rapidly with distance than they already do, making it harder to > > read the track and the traffic. > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:m%Tf8.281901$[email hidden]... > > > based on the limited view a real NASCAR driver has and the way his > > head is > > > so tightly restrained (how did Earnhardt smash his face against the > > wheel > > > btw?), then how come the look right/left feature is in the game then? > > :-) > > > Can't be realistic to have that feature if people are correct about > > the > > > restricted head movement. Right? > > > > > > Why not simply adjust the view so we see more and scrap the look > > right/left > > > option? > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Er, that's during a crash; there's a few more g forces at work there then when they're just sitting normally :) It goes without saying that they couldn't do that on their own. -John "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3FUf8.282350$[email hidden]...

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> I've seen those videos too. Seems like the drivers aren't quite as > restricted as some say. > > David G Fisher > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Because it's based on GPL code :) Also, one of Dale's lap belts

broke;

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> > that's why. And in race car crash test video I've seen at much slower > > speeds, even with intact belts, the dummy's are thrown waaay forward. > > > > -John > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:m%Tf8.281901$[email hidden]... > > > based on the limited view a real NASCAR driver has and the way his

head > is > > > so tightly restrained (how did Earnhardt smash his face against the > wheel > > > btw?), then how come the look right/left feature is in the game then? > :-) > > > Can't be realistic to have that feature if people are correct aboutthe

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> > > restricted head movement. Right? > > > > > > Why not simply adjust the view so we see more and scrap the look > > right/left > > > option? > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I've said several times that those views in the sim aren't realistic. There's a racing line drawn on the track that's available too, but that doesn't mean it's realistic either :) -John "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GtUf8.14403$[email hidden]... > That's true. > > My point really is to show that some of the arguements people have had > saying the cockpit view is realistic don't make sense if the lookleft/right

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> option is available. > > David G Fisher > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:a5p3ca$8ps0h$[email hidden]... > > Personally I wouldn't want a wider FOV in the cockpit view. I agree > > it's too limited, but the limitation is due to aspect ratio, i.e. the > > only way to really make it look more realistic is to use (and for > > Papyrus to support) a wide screen display. If you increased the FOV > > with the existing cockpit view and current monitors the front window > > would turn into an even narrower slit than it already is, and the > > resulting perspective distortion would cause objects to diminish in size > > more rapidly with distance than they already do, making it harder to > > read the track and the traffic. > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:m%Tf8.281901$[email hidden]... > > > based on the limited view a real NASCAR driver has and the way his > > head is > > > so tightly restrained (how did Earnhardt smash his face against the > > wheel > > > btw?), then how come the look right/left feature is in the game then? > > :-) > > > Can't be realistic to have that feature if people are correct about > > the > > > restricted head movement. Right? > > > > > > Why not simply adjust the view so we see more and scrap the look > > right/left > > > option? > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > based on the limited view a real NASCAR driver has Well that's exactly what it is. When the driver looks in front of him, it's his FOV. If he turns his head within the limited range he has, it's the same limited range as the view left/right. > Why not simply adjust the view so we see more and scrap the lookright/left > option? Because it looks as far as they can do on either side. It's really simple. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

John Pancoast wrote: > > I've said several times that those views in the sim aren't realistic. > There's a racing line drawn on the track that's available too, but that > doesn't mean it's realistic either :) Please remind me, your solution to the problem of portraying a realistic view on a flat monitor was what exactly? Gerry

Depends. Realistic view of what? :) -John "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > John Pancoast wrote: > > > > I've said several times that those views in the sim aren't realistic. > > There's a racing line drawn on the track that's available too, but that > > doesn't mean it's realistic either :) > > Please remind me, your solution to the problem of portraying a realistic > view on a flat monitor was what exactly? > > Gerry

John Pancoast wrote: > > Depends. Realistic view of what? :) > The view out of a nascar drivers eyes when he's racing. Do you need me to draw you a picture? :)

What about out of Ernie Irvan's? He use to be all over the track "Swervin Irvin" maybe that's the type of realism that most cockpitters are striving for ;) "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > John Pancoast wrote: > > > > Depends. Realistic view of what? :) > > > The view out of a nascar drivers eyes when he's racing. Do you need me > to draw you a picture? :)

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:nxVf8.83614$[email hidden]... > >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > > based on the limited view a real NASCAR driver has > > > Well that's exactly what it is. When the driver looks in front of him,it's > his FOV. If he turns his head within the limited range he has, it's the > same limited range as the view left/right. That is still highly debatable. Even Pabst said he could see 3/4 of the hood when he sat in a NASCAR car. Others have made similiar comments about the seat being too low. Seat position is adjustable in the real cars too, unlike the game. > > > Why not simply adjust the view so we see more and scrap the look > right/left > > option? > > Because it looks as far as they can do on either side. It's reallysimple. But that's not what some people have been saying, and that's why I started this thread. They are telling us that the real drivers can only turn their heads a tiny bit (unlike the look left/right option where you swing your head pretty far to either side), and they say the helmets block their eyes. Yet they then say that the cockpit view is realistic even though it includes this look left/right feature, and that the roof view is bogus. Doesn't make sense. David G Fisher

"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I've said several times that those views in the sim aren't realistic. > There's a racing line drawn on the track that's available too, but that > doesn't mean it's realistic either :) > > -John Along with quite a few other things like the Fx keys. David G Fisher

:) No. Personally, I don't think a solution is necessary. IMO, without ever having actually raced stock cars, what's happening in _front_ is what's concentrated on by the actual stock car drivers, not what's happening to the side; the car who's bumper you're riding, as you almost always are in a stock car sim, is more important than the one to the side. At least for my sim racing, it sure is. Side view has never seemed to be the problem for me, fwiw. I posted earlier that while maybe not necessarily realistic, the side views are nice to have, as well as maybe a panning view would be, but I don't consider it a necessity. I never use the side views in GPL or the Nascar sims. Not saying that's good or bad, just my take on it. Not saying the cockpit view in N2002 is perfect. But it also isn't as "wide open" as some seem to think. Not even close. -John "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > John Pancoast wrote: > > > > Depends. Realistic view of what? :) > > > The view out of a nascar drivers eyes when he's racing. Do you need me > to draw you a picture? :)

I wish I could use something like the two extra paddles on my Ferrari wheel (throttle/brake for those who can't use pedals) to adjust my view in a smooth fashion. Your left/right peripheral view would change according to how far and quickly you pulled back the pedal on each side of the wheel. David G Fisher "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > John Pancoast wrote: > > > > I've said several times that those views in the sim aren't realistic. > > There's a racing line drawn on the track that's available too, but that > > doesn't mean it's realistic either :) > > Please remind me, your solution to the problem of portraying a realistic > view on a flat monitor was what exactly? > > Gerry >

Yep. But until they program a good AI crew chief, I guess it's necessary, though it would be nice to not have the tire wear F key, i.e. -John "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:yaWf8.14409$[email hidden]...

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> > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I've said several times that those views in the sim aren't realistic. > > There's a racing line drawn on the track that's available too, but that > > doesn't mean it's realistic either :) > > > > -John > > Along with quite a few other things like the Fx keys. > > David G Fisher > > > > >

But it also is too low according to many. It should at least be adjustable in a small range. I'm not as concerned about the side view either, as it gives the same FOV as the roof. David G Fisher "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > :) No. Personally, I don't think a solution is necessary. IMO,without > ever having actually raced stock cars, what's happening in _front_ iswhat's > concentrated on by the actual stock car drivers, not what's happening tothe > side; the car who's bumper you're riding, as you almost always are in a > stock car sim, is more important than the one to the side. At least formy

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> sim racing, it sure is. Side view has never seemed to be the problem for > me, fwiw. > > I posted earlier that while maybe not necessarily realistic, the side > views are nice to have, as well as maybe a panning view would be, but I > don't consider it a necessity. I never use the side views in GPL or the > Nascar sims. Not saying that's good or bad, just my take on it. > > Not saying the cockpit view in N2002 is perfect. But it also isn't as > "wide open" as some seem to think. Not even close. > > -John > > > > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > John Pancoast wrote: > > > > > > Depends. Realistic view of what? :) > > > > > The view out of a nascar drivers eyes when he's racing. Do you need me > > to draw you a picture? :) > > >

David G Fisher wrote: > > based on the limited view a real NASCAR driver has and the way his head is > so tightly restrained (how did Earnhardt smash his face against the wheel > btw?), then how come the look right/left feature is in the game then? :-) > Can't be realistic to have that feature if people are correct about the > restricted head movement. Right? Leftover from the GPL code. I'd say it was left in as a concession to the arcade racers out there, to try & keep them inside where they belong instead of flying like an eagle. :-) -- Fester "Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?" from alt.linux.mandrake NG

David G Fisher wrote: > > based on the limited view a real NASCAR driver has and the way his head is > so tightly restrained (how did Earnhardt smash his face against the wheel > btw?), then how come the look right/left feature is in the game then? :-) > Can't be realistic to have that feature if people are correct about the > restricted head movement. Right? The view would be realistic if it were spread on three monitors. With that setup you could look straight at the front monitor and just move your eyes to look at the left and right ones. You could get three monitors worth on one if you zoomed out. But that would be like driving while looking through a fisheye lens, unrealistic. As always, it's a compromise. One which works too, IMO.

David; The driver's can turn their heads plenty. The problem in seeing is the safety equipment they see when they turn their head; i.e., seat "wings" that block their view, etc. For that matter, when the belts get loose, I imagine they can even lean forward a small bit.......but they usually strap the belts right back down then too. Roof view isn't bogus at all IMO; you're having fun, and not wrecking the field/have an advantage, no views bogus. Some think outside views give an advantage, I don't. I race, always have, from the cockpit view only. But I prefer to NOT used a fixed pit view, because if you get damage, you can't use the outside view to take a look at it then. No big deal if the fixed is used, but beats seeing a dozen chats per race, "Hey Joe, what's my front/rear end look like? " -John "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:J7Wf8.14354$[email hidden]...

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> > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:nxVf8.83614$[email hidden]... > > >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > based on the limited view a real NASCAR driver has > > > > > > Well that's exactly what it is. When the driver looks in front of him, > it's > > his FOV. If he turns his head within the limited range he has, it's the > > same limited range as the view left/right. > > That is still highly debatable. Even Pabst said he could see 3/4 of the

hood > when he sat in a NASCAR car. Others have made similiar comments about the > seat being too low. Seat position is adjustable in the real cars too,unlike

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> the game. > > > > > > Why not simply adjust the view so we see more and scrap the look > > right/left > > > option? > > > > Because it looks as far as they can do on either side. It's really > simple. > > But that's not what some people have been saying, and that's why I started > this thread. They are telling us that the real drivers can only turn their > heads a tiny bit (unlike the look left/right option where you swing your > head pretty far to either side), and they say the helmets block their

eyes. > Yet they then say that the cockpit view is realistic even though itincludes > this look left/right feature, and that the roof view is bogus. Doesn'tmake > sense. > > David G Fisher > > >

That would be nice. -John "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:thWf8.15236$[email hidden]... > I wish I could use something like the two extra paddles on my Ferrariwheel

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> (throttle/brake for those who can't use pedals) to adjust my view in a > smooth fashion. Your left/right peripheral view would change according to > how far and quickly you pulled back the pedal on each side of the wheel. > > David G Fisher > > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > John Pancoast wrote: > > > > > > I've said several times that those views in the sim aren't

realistic. > > > There's a racing line drawn on the track that's available too, butthat

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> > > doesn't mean it's realistic either :) > > > > Please remind me, your solution to the problem of portraying a realistic > > view on a flat monitor was what exactly? > > > > Gerry > > > >

David G Fisher wrote: > But that's not what some people have been saying, and that's why I started > this thread. They are telling us that the real drivers can only turn their > heads a tiny bit (unlike the look left/right option where you swing your > head pretty far to either side), Or move your head a little and your eyes the rest. > and they say the helmets block their eyes. > Yet they then say that the cockpit view is realistic even though it includes > this look left/right feature, and that the roof view is bogus. Doesn't make > sense. Only because you don't want it to, David.

An adjustable height would be a nice feature, as well as front to back. Some flight sims have this front/back feature in the pit; narrow/expanded view type of thing. Nascar 6 ? :) -John "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ilWf8.61532$[email hidden]...

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> But it also is too low according to many. It should at least be adjustable > in a small range. I'm not as concerned about the side view either, as it > gives the same FOV as the roof. > > David G Fisher > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > :) No. Personally, I don't think a solution is necessary. IMO, > without > > ever having actually raced stock cars, what's happening in _front_ is > what's > > concentrated on by the actual stock car drivers, not what's happening to > the > > side; the car who's bumper you're riding, as you almost always are in a > > stock car sim, is more important than the one to the side. At least for > my > > sim racing, it sure is. Side view has never seemed to be the problem

for

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> > me, fwiw. > > > > I posted earlier that while maybe not necessarily realistic, the side > > views are nice to have, as well as maybe a panning view would be, but I > > don't consider it a necessity. I never use the side views in GPL or the > > Nascar sims. Not saying that's good or bad, just my take on it. > > > > Not saying the cockpit view in N2002 is perfect. But it also isn't as > > "wide open" as some seem to think. Not even close. > > > > -John > > > > > > > > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > John Pancoast wrote: > > > > > > > > Depends. Realistic view of what? :) > > > > > > > The view out of a nascar drivers eyes when he's racing. Do you need me > > > to draw you a picture? :) > > > > > > > >

David G Fisher wrote: > > I wish I could use something like the two extra paddles on my Ferrari wheel > (throttle/brake for those who can't use pedals) to adjust my view in a > smooth fashion. Your left/right peripheral view would change according to > how far and quickly you pulled back the pedal on each side of the wheel. Now THAT would work well. AND shut a lot of people up!

David; One thing to keep in mind; some of the same folks who bash roof riding in the Nascar sims have no problem using the "sitting on a stack of phone books" view hack for GPL, or the fov utility for GPL :) -John "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:J7Wf8.14354$[email hidden]...

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> > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:nxVf8.83614$[email hidden]... > > >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > based on the limited view a real NASCAR driver has > > > > > > Well that's exactly what it is. When the driver looks in front of him, > it's > > his FOV. If he turns his head within the limited range he has, it's the > > same limited range as the view left/right. > > That is still highly debatable. Even Pabst said he could see 3/4 of the

hood > when he sat in a NASCAR car. Others have made similiar comments about the > seat being too low. Seat position is adjustable in the real cars too,unlike

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> the game. > > > > > > Why not simply adjust the view so we see more and scrap the look > > right/left > > > option? > > > > Because it looks as far as they can do on either side. It's really > simple. > > But that's not what some people have been saying, and that's why I started > this thread. They are telling us that the real drivers can only turn their > heads a tiny bit (unlike the look left/right option where you swing your > head pretty far to either side), and they say the helmets block their

eyes. > Yet they then say that the cockpit view is realistic even though itincludes > this look left/right feature, and that the roof view is bogus. Doesn'tmake > sense. > > David G Fisher > > >

John Pancoast wrote: > > David; > One thing to keep in mind; some of the same folks who bash roof riding in > the Nascar sims have no problem using the "sitting on a stack of phone > books" view hack for GPL, or the fov utility for GPL :) The FOV utility is useful for three monitor setups. "sitting on a stack of phone books" yeah, that's lame.

>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > That is still highly debatable. Even Pabst said he could see 3/4 of thehood > when he sat in a NASCAR car. Cmon, we're talking about up and down or left and right? Like I said, the normal POV is the POV that Papyrus decided of what you see when you have your head straight in a Stock-car, at the level they think is the average for everybody. And the left right buttons, are exactly what they are for, the view that the same guy would have if he turned his head to the limit he can in that seat. Like I said, I still don't see the problem here. > But that's not what some people have been saying, and that's why I started > this thread. They are telling us that the real drivers can only turn their > heads a tiny bit (unlike the look left/right option where you swing your > head pretty far to either side) Hmm actually it's a "tiny bit", if you compare it to a full left/right view. That's what they are saying, you don't turn your head much. It's really not that much :) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

David G Fisher wrote: > I've seen those videos too. Seems like the drivers aren't quite as > restricted as some say. > > David G Fisher David, some of those drivers were belted in so tightly they could hardly breath, let alone move. When subjected to *80 g loads* the belts stretch. KFG

Gerry Aitken wrote:

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> > > John Pancoast wrote: >> >> David; >> One thing to keep in mind; some of the same folks who bash roof riding >> in >> the Nascar sims have no problem using the "sitting on a stack of phone >> books" view hack for GPL, or the fov utility for GPL :) > > The FOV utility is useful for three monitor setups. "sitting on a stack > of phone > books" yeah, that's lame.

Unless you're Dan Gurney and you're just that tall. :) KFG

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<m%Tf8.281901$[email hidden]>... > based on the limited view a real NASCAR driver has and the way his head is > so tightly restrained (how did Earnhardt smash his face against the wheel > btw?) a. The webbing in his belt broke. b. He was wearing an open-faced helmet and no HANS-like device. > then how come the look right/left feature is in the game then? :-) As papyrus said when GPL came out, the intention of that feature was to make it easier to rejoin the track after an accident. I have no idea how anyone could use those views in a race or why they'd need to (your mirror and spotter tell you everything you need to know). > Can't be realistic to have that feature if people are correct about the > restricted head movement. Right? I don't think it's realistic that you can pop up menus showing tire wear/fuel usage/standings/speed/gear/etc. And actually, I think it would rule if Papyrus would enable a "disable F keys" option in the race configuration so that you had to rely purely on your spotter/crew chief/experience to figure out what was going on. Wouldn't it rule if people in online leagues actually occasionally ran out of fuel or blew tires? > Why not simply adjust the view so we see more and scrap the look right/left > option? I think that would suck. I like the view the way it is now and I can't imagine it being more useful as far as determining where the car is positioned on the track. Why do you need to see to the left and right anyway? I mean, NASCAR has spotters for a reason here, and the ones in the Papyrus games are a million times more accurate and exact than a real human spotter. This isn't F1 which hasn't reached that level of technical complexity yet (probably because the cars don't actually pass each other on the track). =) =) =) Jason

Yes, but how many using the fov utility are doing it with three monitors? <G> -John "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > John Pancoast wrote: > > > > David; > > One thing to keep in mind; some of the same folks who bash roof ridingin > > the Nascar sims have no problem using the "sitting on a stack of phone > > books" view hack for GPL, or the fov utility for GPL :) > > The FOV utility is useful for three monitor setups. "sitting on a stack > of phone > books" yeah, that's lame.

Maybe I can contribute this little story to the 'tunnel vision' discussion, if you'll forgive me the rant :-) When I was younger, I used to drive motorcycles, a lot and fast. Sometimes in groups on rented racetracks, some cross country, some uphill races, but mostly in a very thinly populated area around where I used to live, at times of the day when nobody was out there yet. Apart from the fact that I can confirm that different helmets have different FOV's, here's the story: I'd been driving the same roads close to where I used to live for maybe 10 or 15 years, pretty often, always fast and concentrated because they were beautiful country roads with fantastic corners - and also a fantastic landscape which I never noticed. Because... ...one day I drove on one of these roads with a friend who was more the fun biker, driving at slower speeds and enjoying the views. When he caught up at one of the occasions where I'd been waiting for him, he stopped and we had a little chat. He said: did you see this beautiful group of houses right next to the street, a few meters down into the little valley, with that incredibly beautiful orchard? Now, despite having known this road and driven it frequently for perhaps 15 years, my completely flabberghasted reply was: what houses? :-) Maybe this can serve as a decent example for how much you really see, peripherally, when going at relatively high speeds :-) Achim "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5p3ca$8ps0h$[email hidden]...

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> Personally I wouldn't want a wider FOV in the cockpit view. I agree > it's too limited, but the limitation is due to aspect ratio, i.e. the > only way to really make it look more realistic is to use (and for > Papyrus to support) a wide screen display. If you increased the FOV > with the existing cockpit view and current monitors the front window > would turn into an even narrower slit than it already is, and the > resulting perspective distortion would cause objects to diminish in size > more rapidly with distance than they already do, making it harder to > read the track and the traffic.

I think that while maybe real Nascar drivers can't turn their head as much anymore as they used to, the true reason why they don't see much on the sides isn't that they couldn't turn their heads at all - it's for one that they don't turn their heads much because for them it's just as dangerous and distracting as it is for us to not look forward at race speeds, and also because the car and side windows are so crammed with stuff that even if you take a quick look to the side, you don't really see a lot there. Therefor I think that having a 'look left/right' option is actually the most realistic way of modelling this situation. You won't use it at speed (just like the real drivers) but you have the option in situations where you can afford to turn your head (just like the real drivers). And not using the left/right view at racespeeds is realistic too, for several reasons which have been mention here before - like the need to concentrate so much on the events ahead of you that you don't really use that peripheral vision much, etc. Apart from that, like Haqsaw said - if you'd widen the FOV, you'd have to reduce the size of everything in that available display area, you'd see less detail on the screen, and environment detail would become visible later (when it's already closer to you). Situational awareness is limited in a sim anyway, so IMO it is a sensible compromise to reduce the FOV a bit on the sides (where due to all the stuff obscuring the side windows in a Nascar you'd mainly see safety nets and metal tubes anyway) and get some more detail and better eyeshot looking ahead. Achim "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Because it's based on GPL code :) Also, one of Dale's lap belts broke; > that's why. And in race car crash test video I've seen at much slower > speeds, even with intact belts, the dummy's are thrown waaay forward.

John Pancoast wrote: > > Yes, but how many using the fov utility are doing it with three monitors? > <G> So more people use it to get three monitors worth of fov on one monitor, So what? Are you saying that's cheating, but having three monitors isn't? What point are you trying to make?

No, I'm not. My point has already been said, relax; how come some of the GPL drivers who use this and other view hacks, slam the Nascar sim guys using a roof view ? -John "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > John Pancoast wrote: > > > > Yes, but how many using the fov utility are doing it with threemonitors?

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> > <G> > > So more people use it to get three monitors worth of fov on one monitor, > So what? > > Are you saying that's cheating, but having three monitors isn't? What > point are you trying to make?

I posted the following in one of the other cockpit threads. Also, everyone is talking about our view at high speed in a sim. Sometimes we aren't going that fast (seems people have forgotten this), but the peripheral view is still limited the same amount. I also want to say again that I use the cockpit view in N2002 but also switch to the roof view occasionally. In F1 sims, I always use the cockpit view. I just don't see them as an indicator of someone who's a more 'serious' sim racer. -------------------------------------------------------------- I haven't raced an F1 or NASCAR car at 200mph, but I have had a motocross and street motorcycle. Wearing a closed helmet and racing along at 100 mph on a thin, bumpy, loose dirt road with trees on either side, heat, rocks, jumps, severe camber, g forces, hands and feet all working at the same time, body weight shifting, etc., I still feel like I had a much better view and awareness of things than I do in most sims. That, and the fact that there's so much else about these sims which isn't realistic is why I think this debate can be a little pointless at tines. David G Fisher "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5qqgv$9fjbd$[email hidden]... > Maybe I can contribute this little story to the 'tunnel vision'discussion, > if you'll forgive me the rant :-) > > When I was younger, I used to drive motorcycles, a lot and fast. Sometimes > in groups on rented racetracks, some cross country, some uphill races, but > mostly in a very thinly populated area around where I used to live, attimes

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> of the day when nobody was out there yet. Apart from the fact that I can > confirm that different helmets have different FOV's, here's the story: > > I'd been driving the same roads close to where I used to live for maybe 10 > or 15 years, pretty often, always fast and concentrated because they were > beautiful country roads with fantastic corners - and also a fantastic > landscape which I never noticed. Because... > > ...one day I drove on one of these roads with a friend who was more the

fun > biker, driving at slower speeds and enjoying the views. When he caught upat > one of the occasions where I'd been waiting for him, he stopped and we hada

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> little chat. > > He said: did you see this beautiful group of houses right next to the > street, a few meters down into the little valley, with that incredibly > beautiful orchard? > > Now, despite having known this road and driven it frequently for perhaps

15

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> years, my completely flabberghasted reply was: what houses? :-) > > Maybe this can serve as a decent example for how much you really see, > peripherally, when going at relatively high speeds :-) > > Achim > > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:a5p3ca$8ps0h$[email hidden]... > > Personally I wouldn't want a wider FOV in the cockpit view. I agree > > it's too limited, but the limitation is due to aspect ratio, i.e. the > > only way to really make it look more realistic is to use (and for > > Papyrus to support) a wide screen display. If you increased the FOV > > with the existing cockpit view and current monitors the front window > > would turn into an even narrower slit than it already is, and the > > resulting perspective distortion would cause objects to diminish in size > > more rapidly with distance than they already do, making it harder to > > read the track and the traffic. > > >

John Pancoast wrote: > > No, I'm not. My point has already been said, relax; how come some of the > GPL drivers who use this and other view hacks, slam the Nascar sim guys > using a roof view ? They hack the view to make it more realistic, while roof view is just for girlie puffs that can't drive from the cockpit. ;) Cheers A relaxed Gerry

:) -John "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5rnte$9qkg0$[email hidden]... > Because everything a GPL driver does, he does exclusively for the purposeof

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> increasing realism ;-) > > Achim > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > No, I'm not. My point has already been said, relax; how come some of > the > > GPL drivers who use this and other view hacks, slam the Nascar sim guys > > using a roof view ? > > > > -John > > > > > > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > John Pancoast wrote: > > > > > > > > Yes, but how many using the fov utility are doing it with three > > monitors? > > > > <G> > > > > > > So more people use it to get three monitors worth of fov on one

monitor,

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> > > So what? > > > > > > Are you saying that's cheating, but having three monitors isn't? What > > > point are you trying to make? > > > > > >

"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a5rntd$9qkg0$[email hidden]...

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> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:5Lbg8.236487$[email hidden]... >> > ...racing along at 100 mph ...I still feel like I had a > > much better view and awareness of things than > > I do in most sims. > > Probably. I don't think that at 100mph you'd get tunnel vision, although

in > a hot race with a lot of action going on near you, you might be sofocussed > on that, that you forget about peripheral sight. But yes, a sim clearlyhas > less feedback than real life. 100mph off road under the conditions I briefly described shouldn't induce tunnel vision? <snipped stuff which I agree with> David G Fisher

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> > > > David G Fisher > > > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:a5qqgv$9fjbd$[email hidden]... > > > Maybe I can contribute this little story to the 'tunnel vision' > > discussion, > > > if you'll forgive me the rant :-) > > > > > > When I was younger, I used to drive motorcycles, a lot and fast. > Sometimes > > > in groups on rented racetracks, some cross country, some uphill races, > but > > > mostly in a very thinly populated area around where I used to live, at > > times > > > of the day when nobody was out there yet. Apart from the fact that I

can > > > confirm that different helmets have different FOV's, here's the story: > > > > > > I'd been driving the same roads close to where I used to live formaybe

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> 10 > > > or 15 years, pretty often, always fast and concentrated because they > were > > > beautiful country roads with fantastic corners - and also a fantastic > > > landscape which I never noticed. Because... > > > > > > ...one day I drove on one of these roads with a friend who was more

the

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> > fun > > > biker, driving at slower speeds and enjoying the views. When he caught > up > > at > > > one of the occasions where I'd been waiting for him, he stopped and we > had > > a > > > little chat. > > > > > > He said: did you see this beautiful group of houses right next to the > > > street, a few meters down into the little valley, with that incredibly > > > beautiful orchard? > > > > > > Now, despite having known this road and driven it frequently for

perhaps

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> > 15 > > > years, my completely flabberghasted reply was: what houses? :-) > > > > > > Maybe this can serve as a decent example for how much you really see, > > > peripherally, when going at relatively high speeds :-) > > > > > > Achim > > > > > > > > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:a5p3ca$8ps0h$[email hidden]... > > > > Personally I wouldn't want a wider FOV in the cockpit view. I agree > > > > it's too limited, but the limitation is due to aspect ratio, i.e.

the

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> > > > only way to really make it look more realistic is to use (and for > > > > Papyrus to support) a wide screen display. If you increased the FOV > > > > with the existing cockpit view and current monitors the front window > > > > would turn into an even narrower slit than it already is, and the > > > > resulting perspective distortion would cause objects to diminish in > size > > > > more rapidly with distance than they already do, making it harder to > > > > read the track and the traffic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5Lbg8.236487$[email hidden]... ... > ...Sometimes we aren't going that fast (seems people > have forgotten this), but the peripheral view is still > limited the same amount Well, I for one am either going as fast as I can under any given circumstances, or I'm doing some sightseeing, and for the latter, I don't need peripheral vision as I prefer looking directly at the landscape ;-) > ...cockpit view ...roof view > ...I ...don't see them as an indicator of > someone who's a more 'serious' sim racer. My comments refer to the question asked in your thread title, not to who's a 'serious' sim racer based on the sole fact which view he's using. I'll admit having discussed the issue fervently as well in the past, but have gotten tired of it <g> > ...racing along at 100 mph ...I still feel like I had a > much better view and awareness of things than > I do in most sims. Probably. I don't think that at 100mph you'd get tunnel vision, although in a hot race with a lot of action going on near you, you might be so focussed on that, that you forget about peripheral sight. But yes, a sim clearly has less feedback than real life. Sims lack other important aspects, too, like this strange feeling you get in your intestines a short while after having gone through a near fatal situation. Or the pain your body feels after a while of hard driving. The knowledge that the other driver can come over to your pitstall after the race and whack you in the face if you've been a real a** in the race. This may sound a bit ironical, but these and other aspects basically belong to 'racing realism'. Because sims lack quite a few important aspects of real racing, I personally try to use everything they offer in terms of realism, and even accept some constraints that perhaps don't exist in the same way in reality. I.e., maybe cockpit view isn't entire realistic, but real racing (or just driving on the limit) is so much more challenging than it is in a sim, that a bit of an unrealistic restriction here and there to me doesn't matter. It'll never make up for the fact that I have no fear, no pain, no money at stake (can't ruin the car in an accident) etc. etc. > That, and the fact that there's so much else about > these sims which isn't realistic is why I think this > debate can be a little pointless at tines Yes, but this isn't what the thread is about - or is it? Achim

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> > David G Fisher > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:a5qqgv$9fjbd$[email hidden]... > > Maybe I can contribute this little story to the 'tunnel vision' > discussion, > > if you'll forgive me the rant :-) > > > > When I was younger, I used to drive motorcycles, a lot and fast.

Sometimes > > in groups on rented racetracks, some cross country, some uphill races,but > > mostly in a very thinly populated area around where I used to live, at > times > > of the day when nobody was out there yet. Apart from the fact that I can > > confirm that different helmets have different FOV's, here's the story: > > > > I'd been driving the same roads close to where I used to live for maybe10 > > or 15 years, pretty often, always fast and concentrated because theywere > > beautiful country roads with fantastic corners - and also a fantastic > > landscape which I never noticed. Because... > > > > ...one day I drove on one of these roads with a friend who was more the > fun > > biker, driving at slower speeds and enjoying the views. When he caughtup > at > > one of the occasions where I'd been waiting for him, he stopped and wehad

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> a > > little chat. > > > > He said: did you see this beautiful group of houses right next to the > > street, a few meters down into the little valley, with that incredibly > > beautiful orchard? > > > > Now, despite having known this road and driven it frequently for perhaps > 15 > > years, my completely flabberghasted reply was: what houses? :-) > > > > Maybe this can serve as a decent example for how much you really see, > > peripherally, when going at relatively high speeds :-) > > > > Achim > > > > > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:a5p3ca$8ps0h$[email hidden]... > > > Personally I wouldn't want a wider FOV in the cockpit view. I agree > > > it's too limited, but the limitation is due to aspect ratio, i.e. the > > > only way to really make it look more realistic is to use (and for > > > Papyrus to support) a wide screen display. If you increased the FOV > > > with the existing cockpit view and current monitors the front window > > > would turn into an even narrower slit than it already is, and the > > > resulting perspective distortion would cause objects to diminish in

size

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> > > more rapidly with distance than they already do, making it harder to > > > read the track and the traffic. > > > > > > > >

Because everything a GPL driver does, he does exclusively for the purpose of increasing realism ;-) Achim "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > No, I'm not. My point has already been said, relax; how come some ofthe

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> GPL drivers who use this and other view hacks, slam the Nascar sim guys > using a roof view ? > > -John > > > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > John Pancoast wrote: > > > > > > Yes, but how many using the fov utility are doing it with three > monitors? > > > <G> > > > > So more people use it to get three monitors worth of fov on one monitor, > > So what? > > > > Are you saying that's cheating, but having three monitors isn't? What > > point are you trying to make? > >

In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> writes: > Roof view isn't bogus at all IMO; you're having fun, and not wrecking the >field/have an advantage, no views bogus. Some think outside views give an >advantage, I don't. I think having a higher point of view gives you an advantage on a road course. You can see the upcoming turns a lot better. I don't think it makes much of a difference on an oval, especially a banked one. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (jason moyer) writes: >> then how come the look right/left feature is in the game then? :-) > >As papyrus said when GPL came out, the intention of that feature was >to make it easier to rejoin the track after an accident. I have no >idea how anyone could use those views in a race or why they'd need to >(your mirror and spotter tell you everything you need to know). I use the look left/right all the time in my races, and I'd guess many others do, too. It *does* help... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <a5qqh0$9fjbd$[email hidden]>, "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Therefor I think that having a 'look left/right' option is actually the most >realistic way of modelling this situation. You won't use it at speed (just >like the real drivers) but you have the option in situations where you can >afford to turn your head (just like the real drivers). > >And not using the left/right view at racespeeds is realistic too, for >several reasons which have been mention here before - like the need to >concentrate so much on the events ahead of you that you don't really use >that peripheral vision much, etc.

I use the left/right all the time, even at racespeeds. All it takes is a quick flip of the control to tell you exactly where the other car is... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <87Wf8.23457$[email hidden]>, "Schooner" <[email hidden]> writes: >What about out of Ernie Irvan's? He use to be all over the track "Swervin >Irvin" maybe that's the type of realism that most cockpitters are striving >for ;) Maybe that's where Barrichello got his inspiration...?<ducking> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Hi Eldred, > I use the left/right all the time, even at racespeeds Well, maybe stop doing that and you'll qualify faster at Daytona? ;-) ;-) Achim