Has this been just unforgivable TV coverage of the Sepang Grand Prix? The
guy in the TV control room has no clue how or what to cover in racing.
Malaysia...please put a race fan in the control booth!!!
FatnSlo
Poor TV direction of the 2002 Malaysian Grand Prix
Viewers complained about the poor local TV direction of the 2002 Malaysian Grand Prix, which missed key action. Others explained that the free world feed is mixed by a local director, whereas Bernie Ecclestone's digital service offered multiple channels. The discussion moved on to the first-corner clash between Montoya and Michael Schumacher, with posters arguing over the in-car and kerb photos, and then to past Senna-Prost incidents.
real motorsport
Automated summary.
Why bother?
F1 has become a compolete joke tonight.
What a laugh.
"FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:JxXk8.53094$702.17564@sccrnsc02...
Quoted text (7 lines)
> Has this been just unforgivable TV coverage of the Sepang Grand Prix? The > guy in the TV control room has no clue how or what to cover in racing. > Malaysia...please put a race fan in the control booth!!! > > FatnSlo > >
"FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:JxXk8.53094$702.17564@sccrnsc02...
> Has this been just unforgivable TV coverage of the Sepang Grand Prix? The
> guy in the TV control room has no clue how or what to cover in racing.
> Malaysia...please put a race fan in the control booth!!!
>
> FatnSlo
>Depend on where the globe you are....
In America (for exaple) We are at the mercy SpeedVisoin (whom I think do a
good job) who receive a "feed" from the system which has the contractual
rights...The play by player men and color men merely comemtate on what they
seey basically at the same time the viewer sees it... albeit with the
benefit of several other "feeds" that we do not see...
They alway focus on the "local" or "favorite" driver, depending on the
circumstance
Tim Ferrell
I am well aware of the fact that Speed Channel had to use the feed from
Malaysia (MYTV3). That is why I was bitching about the poor coverage of the
race by the Malaysians! I think the Speed Channel guys were just as upset as
I was about the poor coverage, but had to temper their comments. The fact
that we never really saw what happened between Montoya and MS is absolutely
inexcusable. The rest of the coverage was poor as well. Hopefully the
Europeans don't have to suffer the same pitiful TV coverage as the
Americans.
FatnSlo
"Tim Ferrell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:ZCYk8.163324$[email hidden]...
>
> "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:JxXk8.53094$702.17564@sccrnsc02...
> > Has this been just unforgivable TV coverage of the Sepang Grand Prix?The
they
Quoted text (9 lines)
> > guy in the TV control room has no clue how or what to cover in racing. > > Malaysia...please put a race fan in the control booth!!! > > > > FatnSlo > > > Depend on where the globe you are.... > In America (for exaple) We are at the mercy SpeedVisoin (whom I think do a > good job) who receive a "feed" from the system which has the contractual > rights...The play by player men and color men merely comemtate on whatQuoted text (7 lines)
> seey basically at the same time the viewer sees it... albeit with the > benefit of several other "feeds" that we do not see... > They alway focus on the "local" or "favorite" driver, depending on the > circumstance > Tim Ferrell > >The European digital feed with 6 channels was as good as usual, fantastic
"2nd" channel with the comeback of JPM and MS...
"FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de news:
JxXk8.53094$702.17564@sccrnsc02...
Quoted text (7 lines)
> Has this been just unforgivable TV coverage of the Sepang Grand Prix? The > guy in the TV control room has no clue how or what to cover in racing. > Malaysia...please put a race fan in the control booth!!! > > FatnSlo > >"FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:tRYk8.55484$Yv2.23836@rwcrnsc54:
The ITV1 (UK non-digital) commentators get exactly the same pictures as the
viewers at home, on a little portable TV in their commentary box. They can
look out the window and have access to the timing data, but no extra camera
angles (maybe they could subscribe to the digital service themselves :) )
This means that, eg, in Malaysia, you hear them "begging" the local TV
director to show Ralph's qualifying lap which had put him on pole (at the
time) instead we (and they) had to watch Michael's in lap for 1.5
minutes...
You can always spot the german grand prixs though- look out for lots of
slow motion replays of wheels bouncing over the curves at the chicanes :)
If I remember correctly, Brazil's local TV feed isn't very good either.
cheers
John
Quoted text (10 lines)
> I am well aware of the fact that Speed Channel had to use the feed > from Malaysia (MYTV3). That is why I was bitching about the poor > coverage of the race by the Malaysians! I think the Speed Channel guys > were just as upset as I was about the poor coverage, but had to temper > their comments. The fact that we never really saw what happened > between Montoya and MS is absolutely inexcusable. The rest of the > coverage was poor as well. Hopefully the Europeans don't have to > suffer the same pitiful TV coverage as the Americans. > > FatnSloMust be nice Txl. I don't ever see that kind of coverage in the US possible
unless someday internet feeds can provide high quality video. The only kind
of racing that I see having that kind of coverage ever in the US is
Nascar...yawn.
FatnSlo
"Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3c946080$0$3193$[email hidden]...
The
Quoted text (7 lines)
> The European digital feed with 6 channels was as good as usual, fantastic > "2nd" channel with the comeback of JPM and MS... > > > "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de news: > JxXk8.53094$702.17564@sccrnsc02... > > Has this been just unforgivable TV coverage of the Sepang Grand Prix?Quoted text (8 lines)
> > guy in the TV control room has no clue how or what to cover in racing. > > Malaysia...please put a race fan in the control booth!!! > > > > FatnSlo > > > > > >"FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> writes:
> Must be nice Txl. I don't ever see that kind of coverage in the US possible
> unless someday internet feeds can provide high quality video. The only kind
> of racing that I see having that kind of coverage ever in the US is
> Nascar...yawn.
Yeah, digital coverage is a must. But didn't they use the digital
master channel on ABC for the USGP last year ?
--
Olav K. Malmin
remove .spam when replying
Quoted text (22 lines)
> FatnSlo > > "Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3c946080$0$3193$[email hidden]... > > The European digital feed with 6 channels was as good as usual, fantastic > > "2nd" channel with the comeback of JPM and MS... > > > > > > "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de news: > > JxXk8.53094$702.17564@sccrnsc02... > > > Has this been just unforgivable TV coverage of the Sepang Grand Prix? > The > > > guy in the TV control room has no clue how or what to cover in racing. > > > Malaysia...please put a race fan in the control booth!!! > > > > > > FatnSlo > > > > > > > > > > > >"rik zeppelin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<fBXk8.21702$[email hidden]>...
I do believe a trained monkey could have done a better job of
directing the coverage.I would still love to see the firt turn scrap
between JPM & MS all the way through.
Quoted text (12 lines)
> Why bother? > F1 has become a compolete joke tonight. > What a laugh. > "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:JxXk8.53094$702.17564@sccrnsc02... > > Has this been just unforgivable TV coverage of the Sepang Grand Prix? The > > guy in the TV control room has no clue how or what to cover in racing. > > Malaysia...please put a race fan in the control booth!!! > > > > FatnSlo > > > >All circuits where Uncle "Bernie" has total control on content you get this
same kind of "cover".
Then again for each event there is only one feed available the difference
being that for some of them, the people deciding on editorial (replays,
cameras, what to follow etc.) are experienced and talented, I'll give
Montreal as an example but this is also true for a number of other events.
"JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> You can always spot the german grand prixs though- look out for lots of
> slow motion replays of wheels bouncing over the curves at the chicanes :)
LOL, how true.
Dale.
"Eden" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:E43l8.901$[email hidden]:
> All circuits where Uncle "Bernie" has total control on content you get
> this same kind of "cover".
>
What's Bernie got to do with shite Malaysian TV Directors? I don't have
didgital satellite/cable TV, but if I did, there would be six channels
available. I don't see how Bernie can make a single channel feed done by
the local TV company any better or worse.
John
you should see how "we" (racetrucks) deal with these sissies chicanes at the
nurburgring...ha ha ha, they fear us !!
"Dale Green" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de
news: [email hidden]...
>
> "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> >
> > You can always spot the german grand prixs though- look out for lots of
> > slow motion replays of wheels bouncing over the curves at the chicanes:)
>
> LOL, how true.
>
> Dale.
>
>
he can't, the cameramen are FOCA, always the same, the local director is
just "mixing", the problem is that this time he was REALLY bad apparently (I
have digital and it was as good as always)
"JM" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de
news: [email hidden]...
Quoted text (13 lines)
> "Eden" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:E43l8.901$[email hidden]: > > > All circuits where Uncle "Bernie" has total control on content you get > > this same kind of "cover". > > > > What's Bernie got to do with shite Malaysian TV Directors? I don't have > didgital satellite/cable TV, but if I did, there would be six channels > available. I don't see how Bernie can make a single channel feed done by > the local TV company any better or worse. > > John
"Txl"
the problem is that this time he was REALLY bad apparently (I
> have digital and it was as good as always)
> I think the world rallye coverage is starting to spoil people. The
helicopter shots at Malasia were WAAAAAY to high. They either need to get
the choppers lower of better lenses. Then they need a way to better filter
the sunlight...everything looked pretty washed out. Then they need a
racefan for a director.
dave henrie
Agreed - the worst direction I've seen in years.
-Phasor
"FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:JxXk8.53094$702.17564@sccrnsc02...
Quoted text (7 lines)
> Has this been just unforgivable TV coverage of the Sepang Grand Prix? The > guy in the TV control room has no clue how or what to cover in racing. > Malaysia...please put a race fan in the control booth!!! > > FatnSlo > >You should see how *I* deal with the chicanes in MBTR !!
Be afraid, very afraid !! ;)
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spam>
"Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3c94e60e$0$17759$[email hidden]...
> you should see how "we" (racetrucks) deal with these sissies chicanes at
the
> nurburgring...ha ha ha, they fear us !!
>
In australia (we use the malaysian free-to-air coverage) they showed
Montoya's in car just before the interviews. It shows (IMO) JPM going wide
through the corner and MS under steering into him. A racing accident which
is more MS fault than JPM.
Book
ps-even home town advantage didn't give much coverage to Yoong and Webber
until they ooppsied.
FatnSlo ([email hidden]) wrote on 17 Mar 2002:
> Has this been just unforgivable TV coverage of the Sepang Grand
> Prix? The guy in the TV control room has no clue how or what to
> cover in racing. Malaysia...please put a race fan in the control
> booth!!!
>
> FatnSlo
Hear hear. I live in a "digital black hole" (satellite doesn't work
properly - not sure why), we haven't got cable and the F1 isn't on
digital terrestrial, so a combination of ITV and the BBC Radio 5 live
audio (which is pretty good, actually) is all I have.
And this director was bloody awful. We missed almost everything of
note. I thought it was bad in Oz when there was no coverage whatever of
Villeneuve's wing coming off, but this makes that look like a superb
effort. Roll on Europe...
--
If you know where I can get v6.01 (the official link's dead) of the
EDSAC Simulator, *please* email and tell me!
The GPL Scrapyard: Back again! http://www.btinternet.com/~gplscrapyard
"Txl" <[email hidden]> writes:
> he can't, the cameramen are FOCA, always the same, the local director is
> just "mixing", the problem is that this time he was REALLY bad apparently (I
> have digital and it was as good as always)
A may misunderstand here, but I think you are wrong. The world feed
and the digital feed are two different productions, with different
cameras, different editing people, different scoring graphics,
everything except maybe the same onboard camera. But on the digital
feed they have two or three cameras on each car.
Now, how about that neat camera positioned in the pole at the apex of
turn 2 shown during practice. Neat... :)
--
Olav K. Malmin
remove .spam when replying
Quoted text (19 lines)
> > > "JM" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de > news: [email hidden]... > > "Eden" <[email hidden]> wrote in > > news:E43l8.901$[email hidden]: > > > > > All circuits where Uncle "Bernie" has total control on content you get > > > this same kind of "cover". > > > > > > > What's Bernie got to do with shite Malaysian TV Directors? I don't have > > didgital satellite/cable TV, but if I did, there would be six channels > > available. I don't see how Bernie can make a single channel feed done by > > the local TV company any better or worse. > > > > John > >I don't think the SpeedVision guys tempered their comments too much. It was
obvious they thought the feed sucked.
Todd
"FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:tRYk8.55484$Yv2.23836@rwcrnsc54...
> I am well aware of the fact that Speed Channel had to use the feed from
> Malaysia (MYTV3). That is why I was bitching about the poor coverage ofthe
> race by the Malaysians! I think the Speed Channel guys were just as upsetas
> I was about the poor coverage, but had to temper their comments. The fact
> that we never really saw what happened between Montoya and MS isabsolutely
a
Quoted text (20 lines)
> inexcusable. The rest of the coverage was poor as well. Hopefully the > Europeans don't have to suffer the same pitiful TV coverage as the > Americans. > > FatnSlo > > "Tim Ferrell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ZCYk8.163324$[email hidden]... > > > > "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:JxXk8.53094$702.17564@sccrnsc02... > > > Has this been just unforgivable TV coverage of the Sepang Grand Prix? > The > > > guy in the TV control room has no clue how or what to cover in racing. > > > Malaysia...please put a race fan in the control booth!!! > > > > > > FatnSlo > > > > > Depend on where the globe you are.... > > In America (for exaple) We are at the mercy SpeedVisoin (whom I think doQuoted text (12 lines)
> > good job) who receive a "feed" from the system which has the contractual > > rights...The play by player men and color men merely comemtate on what > they > > seey basically at the same time the viewer sees it... albeit with the > > benefit of several other "feeds" that we do not see... > > They alway focus on the "local" or "favorite" driver, depending on the > > circumstance > > Tim Ferrell > > > > > >From all camera views except the incar, it seemed clear they were in
the middle of the track. Quite funny that Schumacher claimed that
JPM didn't give him enough room. Schumacher had 15-20 feet to his
right!
--
[email hidden]
"jwatts9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "rik zeppelin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<fBXk8.21702$[email hidden]>...
> > Why bother?
> > F1 has become a compolete joke tonight.
> > What a laugh.
> > "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:JxXk8.53094$702.17564@sccrnsc02...
> > > Has this been just unforgivable TV coverage of the Sepang Grand Prix?
The
> > > guy in the TV control room has no clue how or what to cover in racing.
> > > Malaysia...please put a race fan in the control booth!!!
> > >
> > > FatnSlo
> > >
> > >
>
> I do believe a trained monkey could have done a better job of
> directing the coverage.I would still love to see the firt turn scrap
> between JPM & MS all the way through.
he said he "bounced" off the inside curb at that's why he went "wide", if it
was a new driver we could believe him, but not schumi, not after everything
he has been doing in the past years...
--
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http://pub7.ezboard.com/bpinball
"Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de news:
3c97426a$[email hidden]...
> From all camera views except the incar, it seemed clear they were in
> the middle of the track. Quite funny that Schumacher claimed that
> JPM didn't give him enough room. Schumacher had 15-20 feet to his
> right!
>
> --
>
> [email hidden]
>
>
> "jwatts9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > "rik zeppelin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:<fBXk8.21702$[email hidden]>...
> > > Why bother?
> > > F1 has become a compolete joke tonight.
> > > What a laugh.
> > > "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > news:JxXk8.53094$702.17564@sccrnsc02...
> > > > Has this been just unforgivable TV coverage of the Sepang Grand
Prix?
> The
> > > > guy in the TV control room has no clue how or what to cover in
racing.
> > > > Malaysia...please put a race fan in the control booth!!!
> > > >
> > > > FatnSlo
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > I do believe a trained monkey could have done a better job of
> > directing the coverage.I would still love to see the firt turn scrap
> > between JPM & MS all the way through.
>
>
From the angles I saw he wasn't anywhere near the inside
curb.
--
[email hidden]
"Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3c976c8c$0$23200$[email hidden]...
> he said he "bounced" off the inside curb at that's why he went "wide", if
it
> was a new driver we could believe him, but not schumi, not after
everything
> he has been doing in the past years...
>
> --
> The first ever pinball ezboard !!
> http://pub7.ezboard.com/bpinball
>
>
> "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de news:
> 3c97426a$[email hidden]...
> > From all camera views except the incar, it seemed clear they were in
> > the middle of the track. Quite funny that Schumacher claimed that
> > JPM didn't give him enough room. Schumacher had 15-20 feet to his
> > right!
> >
> > --
> >
> > [email hidden]
> >
> >
> > "jwatts9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> > > "rik zeppelin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:<fBXk8.21702$[email hidden]>...
> > > > Why bother?
> > > > F1 has become a compolete joke tonight.
> > > > What a laugh.
> > > > "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > > news:JxXk8.53094$702.17564@sccrnsc02...
> > > > > Has this been just unforgivable TV coverage of the Sepang Grand
> Prix?
> > The
> > > > > guy in the TV control room has no clue how or what to cover in
> racing.
> > > > > Malaysia...please put a race fan in the control booth!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > FatnSlo
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > I do believe a trained monkey could have done a better job of
> > > directing the coverage.I would still love to see the firt turn scrap
> > > between JPM & MS all the way through.
> >
> >
>
>
"Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3c98960a$[email hidden]...
> From the angles I saw he wasn't anywhere near the inside
> curb.
>
Erm... http://home1.gte.net/bhelland/jpm-ms1.jpg
I didn't see the race itself, so I can't really draw any conclusions about
who did what and why. But we all know how little grip there is on a kerb.
Imagine applying the brakes where Shumi is, then coming back into contact
with the tarmac - no small wonder he got understeer...
briGuy
briGuy wrote:
Don't confuse the Schumacher is always at fault crowd with photographic
evidence, briGuy, it's no use. Their brains have mysteriously re-wired
themselves to see stuff that isn't there (e.g., Schumacher being 15 to 20
feet from the kerb when actually his car is half on the kerb!!!).
Two aggressive drivers going for the first turn. They touched. Both of them
thought they were in the right (no surprise). And both of them (even
Schumacher) thought that it was just a racing incident and no penalty should
have been assessed (I agree).
Dave Ewing
--
*****************************************************
David A. Ewing
Xilinx Boulder [email hidden]
*****************************************************
Quoted text (12 lines)
> "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3c98960a$[email hidden]... > > From the angles I saw he wasn't anywhere near the inside > > curb. > > > > Erm... http://home1.gte.net/bhelland/jpm-ms1.jpg > > I didn't see the race itself, so I can't really draw any conclusions about > who did what and why. But we all know how little grip there is on a kerb. > Imagine applying the brakes where Shumi is, then coming back into contact > with the tarmac - no small wonder he got understeer...Sky digital F1 coverage showed clearly that MS was well onto the kerb and
JPM was pretty tight against him.
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spam>
"Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3c98960a$[email hidden]...
> From the angles I saw he wasn't anywhere near the inside
> curb.
>
> --
>
> [email hidden]
David Ewing wrote:
IMHO, MS is one of the biggest assholes to ever drive a car, racing or
otherwise, this time it wasn't his fault though, JPM didn't give him a
lot of working room, as you say, two aggressive drivers going for the
same, well almost same anyway, piece of real estate in T1.....I still
don't like the way he cuts across the field on the start, but I don't
expect Max or Bernie to do anything about that
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
http://www.theuspits.com
http://www.teammirage.com
"Animation isn't the illusion of life; it is life"
--Chuck Jones (1912-2002)--
Quoted text (25 lines)
> > briGuy wrote: > > > "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:3c98960a$[email hidden]... > > > From the angles I saw he wasn't anywhere near the inside > > > curb. > > > > > > > Erm... http://home1.gte.net/bhelland/jpm-ms1.jpg > > > > I didn't see the race itself, so I can't really draw any conclusions about > > who did what and why. But we all know how little grip there is on a kerb. > > Imagine applying the brakes where Shumi is, then coming back into contact > > with the tarmac - no small wonder he got understeer... > > Don't confuse the Schumacher is always at fault crowd with photographic > evidence, briGuy, it's no use. Their brains have mysteriously re-wired > themselves to see stuff that isn't there (e.g., Schumacher being 15 to 20 > feet from the kerb when actually his car is half on the kerb!!!). > > Two aggressive drivers going for the first turn. They touched. Both of them > thought they were in the right (no surprise). And both of them (even > Schumacher) thought that it was just a racing incident and no penalty should > have been assessed (I agree).well, when you look at the incar from JPM BEFORE the turn you see 2
things...
1) He was CLEARLY in front
2) He was "closing" the door to MS, but not completely, he left "half a car"
space between the apex and his car, every driver with a brain and a Ferrari
would have stayed behind, waited 2-3 laps for JPM to make a mistake and
passed him, like he did in Australia, but this time MS did have the Ferrari
but not the brain...
Reminds me of the Senna crashing into the Ferrari of Prost at Suzuka in 92,
same trick, when there is no space, don't try to go in it with your toy-like
car that goes into pieces at the slightest touch...
Now if this was Truck racing if would have been JPM's time to brake, becuase
if you are on the outside of turn 1 and the guy at your inside has a
virtually indestructible machine (at least in side to side contact), then
you are 200% sure to finish in the gravel trap...
--
The first ever pinball ezboard !!
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"Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de news:
3c98960a$[email hidden]...
> From the angles I saw he wasn't anywhere near the inside
> curb.
>
> --
>
> [email hidden]
>
>
> "Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:3c976c8c$0$23200$[email hidden]...
> > he said he "bounced" off the inside curb at that's why he went "wide",
if
> it
> > was a new driver we could believe him, but not schumi, not after
> everything
> > he has been doing in the past years...
> >
> > --
> > The first ever pinball ezboard !!
> > http://pub7.ezboard.com/bpinball
> >
> >
> > "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de news:
> > 3c97426a$[email hidden]...
> > > From all camera views except the incar, it seemed clear they were in
> > > the middle of the track. Quite funny that Schumacher claimed that
> > > JPM didn't give him enough room. Schumacher had 15-20 feet to his
> > > right!
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > [email hidden]
> > >
> > >
> > > "jwatts9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > "rik zeppelin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > news:<fBXk8.21702$[email hidden]>...
> > > > > Why bother?
> > > > > F1 has become a compolete joke tonight.
> > > > > What a laugh.
> > > > > "FatnSlo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > > > news:JxXk8.53094$702.17564@sccrnsc02...
> > > > > > Has this been just unforgivable TV coverage of the Sepang Grand
> > Prix?
> > > The
> > > > > > guy in the TV control room has no clue how or what to cover in
> > racing.
> > > > > > Malaysia...please put a race fan in the control booth!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > FatnSlo
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I do believe a trained monkey could have done a better job of
> > > > directing the coverage.I would still love to see the firt turn scrap
> > > > between JPM & MS all the way through.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
"Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3c991b3e$0$3180$[email hidden]...
>
> Reminds me of the Senna crashing into the Ferrari of Prost at Suzuka in92,
> same trick, when there is no space, don't try to go in it with yourtoy-like
> car that goes into pieces at the slightest touch...
>
Well, in 92 Prost was enjoying a holiday after bad-mouthing the Ferrari in
91 and leaving the team. In 91 Senna blitzed the field then let Berger
through to win on the last lap, while Prost brought his sad Ferrari home in
4th (I think). In 90, Senna deliberately punted Prost out on the first
corner. He wasn't trying to make a pass where there was no room, and he
didn't care if he took himself out, as he was simply ramming Prost off the
road to avenge the previous year's coming together. In 89 Prost tried the
overly ambitious move at the chicane, putting the car where there was no
space, which put them both out.
Stephen
ok the it was 90, but I am to say that in 89 it was Senna's fault...
When your front wheel is at the level of the other DRIVER not his front
wheel or front wing then you are DEFINITELY not in front and can't expect to
get the room for free, and as I recall Senna used the whole of the pit entry
to make his move, not like poor RS who got fucked in nurburg for using part
of the pit EXIT but senna had his 4 wheels over the line...
Ah, it feels good to be young again with these memories, next thing we'll
talk about Mansell blowing a tire in the last race of the season in 84...
And finally I still think that the nicest looking F1 of all times was the 90
Ferrari.
--
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"Stephen F." <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de news:
3c999009$[email hidden]...
>
> "Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:3c991b3e$0$3180$[email hidden]...
> >
> > Reminds me of the Senna crashing into the Ferrari of Prost at Suzuka in
> 92,
> > same trick, when there is no space, don't try to go in it with your
> toy-like
> > car that goes into pieces at the slightest touch...
> >
>
> Well, in 92 Prost was enjoying a holiday after bad-mouthing the Ferrari in
> 91 and leaving the team. In 91 Senna blitzed the field then let Berger
> through to win on the last lap, while Prost brought his sad Ferrari home
in
> 4th (I think). In 90, Senna deliberately punted Prost out on the first
> corner. He wasn't trying to make a pass where there was no room, and he
> didn't care if he took himself out, as he was simply ramming Prost off the
> road to avenge the previous year's coming together. In 89 Prost tried the
> overly ambitious move at the chicane, putting the car where there was no
> space, which put them both out.
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
"Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3c999f4b$0$23188$[email hidden]...
>
> Ah, it feels good to be young again with these memories, next thing we'll
> talk about Mansell blowing a tire in the last race of the season in 84...
Or his first championship in 1991... :-)
> And finally I still think that the nicest looking F1 of all times was the90
> Ferrari.
1991 Jordan is also up there for me, although GPL has given me a new
appreciation of the 1967 Eagle, but I think this is somehow related to the
beautiful detail of the GPLEA car, but undoubtedly it's wonderful to see all
the mechanical bits out in the open.
Stephen
"Stephen F." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3c999009$[email hidden]...
in
Sorry, my mistake. Senna went for a very questionable pass and Prost firmly
shut the door, putting them both out.
Stephen
Quoted text (14 lines)
> > "Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3c991b3e$0$3180$[email hidden]... > > > > Reminds me of the Senna crashing into the Ferrari of Prost at Suzuka in > 92, > > same trick, when there is no space, don't try to go in it with your > toy-like > > car that goes into pieces at the slightest touch... > > > > Well, in 92 Prost was enjoying a holiday after bad-mouthing the Ferrari in > 91 and leaving the team. In 91 Senna blitzed the field then let Berger > through to win on the last lap, while Prost brought his sad Ferrari homeQuoted text (9 lines)
> 4th (I think). In 90, Senna deliberately punted Prost out on the first > corner. He wasn't trying to make a pass where there was no room, and he > didn't care if he took himself out, as he was simply ramming Prost off the > road to avenge the previous year's coming together. In 89 Prost tried the > overly ambitious move at the chicane, putting the car where there was no > space, which put them both out. > > Stephen >In article <a7as8e$h81$[email hidden]>,
"Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Sky digital F1 coverage showed clearly that MS was well onto the kerb and
> JPM was pretty tight against him.
Quite right... I watched the formation lap, and the start all from JPMs
onbord camera and it is quite clear that he was NOT in front of MS at
the time he started to force MS up on to the kerb (where else was he
expected to go?). MS then had sevely reduced directional control and
understeered off the kerb into the side of JPM.
At his closest point to the kerb, JPM can have been no more than 2 feet
from it. Certainly less than half a cars width.
The external camer views bear this out and All of the coomentators on
the F1 Digital+ feed, JW, BE, DH and the other two all agreed that it
was JPM at fault.
Some people here should maybe get their eyes tested :-)
--
Mark Foster, University of Sussex Computing Service, Falmer, UK. BN1 9QJ
EMail: [email hidden] - VOICE/FAX: +44 1273 678902/873135
-------------------------------------------------
"There are no such useless words as...'I didn't have a chance.'"
[Driving, HMSO]
On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:47:14 +0100, "Stephen F."
<[email hidden]> wrote:
> He wasn't trying to make a pass where there was no room, and he
>didn't care if he took himself out, as he was simply ramming Prost off the
>road to avenge the previous year's coming together. In 89 Prost tried the
>overly ambitious move at the chicane, putting the car where there was no
>space, which put them both out.
That wasn't the only reason. All weekend he had been whining about the
pole position being in the dirty part of the track(i.e. off the
racingline) and stated before the race that if they didn't change it,
anyone that beat him into T1 on the outside he would take with him
right off the track. And he did.
He could be a right a**hole sometimes... :(
In article <3c999009$[email hidden]>,
"Stephen F." <[email hidden]> wrote:
> In 90, Senna deliberately punted Prost out on the first
> corner. He wasn't trying to make a pass where there was no room, and he
> didn't care if he took himself out, as he was simply ramming Prost off the
> road to avenge the previous year's coming together.
Apparently the telemetry from Sennas car shows that his right foot was
firmly planted all the way up to impact. Having not seen it, I could not
say how trues this is but there certainly didn't appear to be ANY
attempt at braking for what is normally quite a slow corner.
--
Mark Foster, University of Sussex Computing Service, Falmer, UK. BN1 9QJ
EMail: [email hidden] - VOICE/FAX: +44 1273 678902/873135
-------------------------------------------------
"There are no such useless words as...'I didn't have a chance.'"
[Driving, HMSO]
"Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3c991b3e$0$3180$[email hidden]...
> well, when you look at the incar from JPM BEFORE the turn you see 2
> things...
>
> 1) He was CLEARLY in front
Partially, but less than half a cars length.
> 2) He was "closing" the door to MS, but not completely, he left "half acar"
> space between the apex and his car,
Half a car space is NOT enough to fit a car. As there was a car there he
should have left at LEAST a WHOLE cars width.
>every driver with a brain and a Ferrari
> would have stayed behind, waited 2-3 laps for JPM to make a mistake and
> passed him, like he did in Australia, but this time MS did have theFerrari
> but not the brain...
They were both going into a corner so I'm pretty sure they were both braking
as hard as possible so couldn't have slowed any more. MS particularly
because JPM forced him onto the kerb which has less grip than asphalt.
> Reminds me of the Senna crashing into the Ferrari of Prost at Suzuka in92,
> same trick, when there is no space, don't try to go in it with yourtoy-like
> car that goes into pieces at the slightest touch...
Totally different, Senna had every intention of causing an accident. It
decided the title.
>
> Now if this was Truck racing if would have been JPM's time to brake,becuase
> if you are on the outside of turn 1 and the guy at your inside has a
> virtually indestructible machine (at least in side to side contact), then
> you are 200% sure to finish in the gravel trap...
So because this was in a F1 car MS should have backed off ? I thought it was
up to BOTH drivers to try and avoid a collision.
If the contact points had been reversed and MS touched JPMs front wing then
.......
As John Watson said at the time, "MS wants to win championships, JPM just
wants to beat MS"
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spam>
"Stephen F." wrote:
> 1991 Jordan is also up there for me, although GPL has given me a new
> appreciation of the 1967 Eagle, but I think this is somehow related to the
> beautiful detail of the GPLEA car, but undoubtedly it's wonderful to see all
> the mechanical bits out in the open.
The 1967 Eagle is a beauty! I've had the chance to see it close up at the US
Grand Prix the last couple of years. They've had an historic car parade on
Friday and Saturday and the cars are all parked together under a tent when they
aren't on the track, allowing you to walk right up to it. A stunning machine.
Dave Ewing
--
*****************************************************
David A. Ewing
Xilinx Boulder [email hidden]
*****************************************************
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"Ian P" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de news:
a7di5n$59$[email hidden]...
> "Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:3c991b3e$0$3180$[email hidden]...
> > well, when you look at the incar from JPM BEFORE the turn you see 2
> > things...
> >
> > 1) He was CLEARLY in front
>
> Partially, but less than half a cars length.
According to the FIA rules "partially" is enough, you cannot "attack" a guy
if your front wheel is not in front of his or something like that..
> > 2) He was "closing" the door to MS, but not completely, he left "half a
> car"
> > space between the apex and his car,
>
> Half a car space is NOT enough to fit a car. As there was a car there he
> should have left at LEAST a WHOLE cars width.
No because he was in front, you cannot ask the guy in front to leave the
door open and the apex free
>
> >every driver with a brain and a Ferrari
> > would have stayed behind, waited 2-3 laps for JPM to make a mistake and
> > passed him, like he did in Australia, but this time MS did have the
> Ferrari
> > but not the brain...
>
> They were both going into a corner so I'm pretty sure they were both
braking
> as hard as possible so couldn't have slowed any more. MS particularly
> because JPM forced him onto the kerb which has less grip than asphalt.
>
JPM was in front 300 meters before the braking point, MS should have
accepted that as usual he took a shit start, his zigzagging didn't save him
front being overtaken by JPM and that was it
> > Reminds me of the Senna crashing into the Ferrari of Prost at Suzuka in
> 92,
> > same trick, when there is no space, don't try to go in it with your
> toy-like
> > car that goes into pieces at the slightest touch...
>
> Totally different, Senna had every intention of causing an accident. It
> decided the title.
Well, when MS won his first title be punted Hill, and when villeneuve won
his title MS tried to punt him too
> >
> > Now if this was Truck racing if would have been JPM's time to brake,
> becuase
> > if you are on the outside of turn 1 and the guy at your inside has a
> > virtually indestructible machine (at least in side to side contact),
then
> > you are 200% sure to finish in the gravel trap...
>
> So because this was in a F1 car MS should have backed off ? I thought it
was
> up to BOTH drivers to try and avoid a collision.
> If the contact points had been reversed and MS touched JPMs front wing
then
> .......
I was mentioning this point becuas ewhen you are in a toy car where a part
is flying away as soon as you touch something you REALLY want to avoid
contact, in truck racing, well, it's different, sometimes you NEED contact
to slow you down because you brake 10-15m too late and you "rest" on the guy
in front, a bit like in go karts..
> As John Watson said at the time, "MS wants to win championships, JPM just
> wants to beat MS"
> --
>
> Ian P
> <email invalid due to spam>
>
>
>
Comments in the appropriate places below.
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spam>
"Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3c9a6dc2$0$853$[email hidden]...
>
> > > 1) He was CLEARLY in front
> >
> > Partially, but less than half a cars length.
>
>
> According to the FIA rules "partially" is enough, you cannot "attack" a
guy
> if your front wheel is not in front of his or something like that..
The rules state that you can't put your car in such a place as to cause an
accident. If part of the car is inside and you turn in you WILL cause an
accident.
>
>
> > > 2) He was "closing" the door to MS, but not completely, he left "half
a
> > car"
> > > space between the apex and his car,
> >
> > Half a car space is NOT enough to fit a car. As there was a car there he
> > should have left at LEAST a WHOLE cars width.
>
> No because he was in front, you cannot ask the guy in front to leave the
> door open and the apex free
He was not in front, he was ALONGSIDE
>
> >
> > >every driver with a brain and a Ferrari
> > > would have stayed behind, waited 2-3 laps for JPM to make a mistake
and
> > > passed him, like he did in Australia, but this time MS did have the
> > Ferrari
> > > but not the brain...
> >
> > They were both going into a corner so I'm pretty sure they were both
> braking
> > as hard as possible so couldn't have slowed any more. MS particularly
> > because JPM forced him onto the kerb which has less grip than asphalt.
> >
>
> JPM was in front 300 meters before the braking point, MS should have
> accepted that as usual he took a shit start, his zigzagging didn't save
him
> front being overtaken by JPM and that was it
At no point was JPM even a car length in front, let alone 300 metres. Which
race are we talking about ?
>
> > > Reminds me of the Senna crashing into the Ferrari of Prost at Suzuka
in
> > 92,
> > > same trick, when there is no space, don't try to go in it with your
> > toy-like
> > > car that goes into pieces at the slightest touch...
> >
> > Totally different, Senna had every intention of causing an accident. It
> > decided the title.
>
> Well, when MS won his first title be punted Hill, and when villeneuve won
> his title MS tried to punt him too
I thought we wre talking about Malaysia 2002 ?
>
> > >
> > > Now if this was Truck racing if would have been JPM's time to brake,
> > becuase
> > > if you are on the outside of turn 1 and the guy at your inside has a
> > > virtually indestructible machine (at least in side to side contact),
> then
> > > you are 200% sure to finish in the gravel trap...
> >
> > So because this was in a F1 car MS should have backed off ? I thought it
> was
> > up to BOTH drivers to try and avoid a collision.
> > If the contact points had been reversed and MS touched JPMs front wing
> then
> > .......
>
> I was mentioning this point becuas ewhen you are in a toy car where a part
> is flying away as soon as you touch something you REALLY want to avoid
> contact, in truck racing, well, it's different, sometimes you NEED contact
> to slow you down because you brake 10-15m too late and you "rest" on the
guy
> in front, a bit like in go karts..
So whats good for truck racing is wrong for Schumacher ?
Jeez !
I really believe that if this incident had been with JPM and D Coulthard
that this thread would never have even started. Some people just like to
jump on any incident involving Schumacher.
Let's face it, Senna was at least as guilty as Schumacher of dodgy incidents
for WCs but he was (is) considered a god.
Well all I can say is speedvision sure as hell didn't have
*THAT* angle :-)
--
[email hidden]
"briGuy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:a7a76m$lja$[email hidden]...
> "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:3c98960a$[email hidden]...
> > From the angles I saw he wasn't anywhere near the inside
> > curb.
> >
>
> Erm... http://home1.gte.net/bhelland/jpm-ms1.jpg
>
> I didn't see the race itself, so I can't really draw any conclusions about
> who did what and why. But we all know how little grip there is on a kerb.
> Imagine applying the brakes where Shumi is, then coming back into contact
> with the tarmac - no small wonder he got understeer...
>
> briGuy
>
>
"Mark Foster" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Some people here should maybe get their eyes tested :-)
Some people here are at the mercy of speedvision!
I agree for that one angle MS was clearly on the curb,
no problem!
--
[email hidden]
> --
> Mark Foster, University of Sussex Computing Service, Falmer, UK. BN1 9QJ
> EMail: [email hidden] - VOICE/FAX: +44 1273 678902/873135
> -------------------------------------------------
> "There are no such useless words as...'I didn't have a chance.'"
> [Driving, HMSO]
comments in the same place
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"Ian P" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de news:
a7gi2l$2u2$[email hidden]...
> Comments in the appropriate places below.
>
> --
>
> Ian P
> <email invalid due to spam>
>
>
> "Txl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:3c9a6dc2$0$853$[email hidden]...
>
> >
>
> > > > 1) He was CLEARLY in front
> > >
> > > Partially, but less than half a cars length.
> >
> >
> > According to the FIA rules "partially" is enough, you cannot "attack" a
> guy
> > if your front wheel is not in front of his or something like that..
>
> The rules state that you can't put your car in such a place as to cause an
> accident. If part of the car is inside and you turn in you WILL cause an
> accident.
If you are in front then the car inside must NOT try to pass
> >
> >
> > > > 2) He was "closing" the door to MS, but not completely, he left
"half
> a
> > > car"
> > > > space between the apex and his car,
> > >
> > > Half a car space is NOT enough to fit a car. As there was a car there
he
> > > should have left at LEAST a WHOLE cars width.
> >
> > No because he was in front, you cannot ask the guy in front to leave the
> > door open and the apex free
>
> He was not in front, he was ALONGSIDE
look at the incar cam from JPM, he was definitely in front
> >
> > >
> > > >every driver with a brain and a Ferrari
> > > > would have stayed behind, waited 2-3 laps for JPM to make a mistake
> and
> > > > passed him, like he did in Australia, but this time MS did have the
> > > Ferrari
> > > > but not the brain...
> > >
> > > They were both going into a corner so I'm pretty sure they were both
> > braking
> > > as hard as possible so couldn't have slowed any more. MS particularly
> > > because JPM forced him onto the kerb which has less grip than asphalt.
> > >
> >
> > JPM was in front 300 meters before the braking point, MS should have
> > accepted that as usual he took a shit start, his zigzagging didn't save
> him
> > front being overtaken by JPM and that was it
>
> At no point was JPM even a car length in front, let alone 300 metres.
Which
> race are we talking about ?
JPM was in front 300 meters before the braking point, he was not 300m in
front, but when you look at his incar cam you can see that after the turn
from MS at the start JPM is coming alongside and with better traction or
better start MS's car is disappearing from JPM's in car cam
>
> >
> > > > Reminds me of the Senna crashing into the Ferrari of Prost at Suzuka
> in
> > > 92,
> > > > same trick, when there is no space, don't try to go in it with your
> > > toy-like
> > > > car that goes into pieces at the slightest touch...
> > >
> > > Totally different, Senna had every intention of causing an accident.
It
> > > decided the title.
> >
> > Well, when MS won his first title be punted Hill, and when villeneuve
won
> > his title MS tried to punt him too
>
> I thought we wre talking about Malaysia 2002 ?
Yes but it's just a reminder that MS doesn't hesitate to punt, Prost always
hesitated, Senna and MS never hesitate, different styles, great drivers but
different styles
>
> >
> > > >
> > > > Now if this was Truck racing if would have been JPM's time to brake,
> > > becuase
> > > > if you are on the outside of turn 1 and the guy at your inside has a
> > > > virtually indestructible machine (at least in side to side contact),
> > then
> > > > you are 200% sure to finish in the gravel trap...
> > >
> > > So because this was in a F1 car MS should have backed off ? I thought
it
> > was
> > > up to BOTH drivers to try and avoid a collision.
> > > If the contact points had been reversed and MS touched JPMs front wing
> > then
> > > .......
> >
> > I was mentioning this point becuas ewhen you are in a toy car where a
part
> > is flying away as soon as you touch something you REALLY want to avoid
> > contact, in truck racing, well, it's different, sometimes you NEED
contact
> > to slow you down because you brake 10-15m too late and you "rest" on the
> guy
> > in front, a bit like in go karts..
>
> So whats good for truck racing is wrong for Schumacher ?
> Jeez !
We do ot lose our front wing at turn 1 that's the diff so WE can do it, and
HE can't (punting).
> I really believe that if this incident had been with JPM and D Coulthard
> that this thread would never have even started. Some people just like to
> jump on any incident involving Schumacher.
> Let's face it, Senna was at least as guilty as Schumacher of dodgy
incidents
> for WCs but he was (is) considered a god.
>
See my former comment on Prost and Senna, I was personnaly a Prost fan and
not a Senna one, but as I said there were both great drivers it's just that
i think about this incident between MS and JPM it was clearly a mistake from
MS from STUPIDITY, his car was faster than JPM's (see time trial and the
race in australia), he didn't have the PATIENCE to wait for 5 or 10 laps
before making his move, just like he did in Australia, this time he tried
his "I'm the boss get out of MY way" and it didn't work, I guess of all
drivers JPM is DEFINITELY the wrong guy to do this to...
If you try to do this for WC like MS with HILL or MS and JV then it's ok,
doing this at T1 of race 2 of a season is a mistake and since I know a
little bit Jean TODT I'm sure he tols MS exactly this, he took 4 points and
he could/should have taken 10, in the worst case he would have taken 6 for
2nd place behind JPM, maybe it won't matter but is he misses the title by
few points then I'm sure he will wish he had let JPM go on this corner...
Ahh, I love these discussions where everybody stands his point but it's
constructiove and courteous...only on RAS can you have this..
Quoted text (15 lines)
> See my former comment on Prost and Senna, I was personnaly a Prost fan and > not a Senna one, but as I said there were both great drivers it's just that > i think about this incident between MS and JPM it was clearly a mistake from > MS from STUPIDITY, his car was faster than JPM's (see time trial and the > race in australia), he didn't have the PATIENCE to wait for 5 or 10 laps > before making his move, just like he did in Australia, this time he tried > his "I'm the boss get out of MY way" and it didn't work, I guess of all > drivers JPM is DEFINITELY the wrong guy to do this to... > > If you try to do this for WC like MS with HILL or MS and JV then it's ok, > doing this at T1 of race 2 of a season is a mistake and since I know a > little bit Jean TODT I'm sure he tols MS exactly this, he took 4 points and > he could/should have taken 10, in the worst case he would have taken 6 for > 2nd place behind JPM, maybe it won't matter but is he misses the title by > few points then I'm sure he will wish he had let JPM go on this corner...An excellent prognosis. Heaven forbid, but you have offered a clear ,
concise accurate and logical synopsis of the incident.
Quite unusual in most newsgroups
Kudos
>.....In the heat of the momemt MS reckoned
>he could hold the corner and JPM would be forced to let him have it, JPM
>reckoned he had done enough and MS would back off. I think we could argue
>forever who was at fault. The decisions the drivers take are based on
>assumptions of what the other drivers will do. Part of the process is to
>understand your fellow racers. This process takes place in the early partof the
>relationship.
>
>Senna was a master at intimidating other drivers by his unrelentingapproach.
>Schumacher probably has the closest approach of the current drivers butthere is
>a relatively new guy showing he won't be intimidated. Hence the battle ofmental
>strength.
>
>I say let them sort it out. The last thing I want is a set of rules to turn
>overtaking into a science and determine who is in front by 2mm has theright to
>the corner. Heck they might even introduce modified parking sensors on thecars
>to determine who has the corner - with a yield light flashing in the"overtaken"
>drivers cockpit.
>
>There is nothing to gain for these two in tripping over each other.
>
>We seem to be getting rule & penalty crazy. Senna always cut it fine when
>trying to carry as much speed through a corner when following another carto get
>a good exit for a possible overtake. He came to grief several times(Brundle at
>Monza, Mansell at Adelaide for instance) and simply ran into the back ofthe car
>in front. Totally unintentional, a simple misjudgment. Don't recall himbeing
>penalised or being called stupid...
>
>Tony
>
>
>
