Cockpits: From the outside

We've all been thru the arguments for and against driving from the cockpit. But I had some random thoughts today that might add to the discussion. I won't be using racing examples tho... Recently saw a publicity screen shot of Star Trek Bridge Commander. The trouble was...there was NO BRIDGE. Just the familiar Tailgunner view so many of us know. A nice picture of the "D" Enterprise exchanging phaser fire with another Wessel...errrr Vessel. But the dang title is called "Bridge Comander" not "I'm floating behind the ship in an escape pod Commander." I can only imagine what the title isn't going to have. Instead of crisp console views that have specific purposes, you merely point and click your ship at another enemy. Couldnt' they have made an entire Bridge crew that carries out your orders? Imagine the mulitplayer possiblities...instead of Quake Clans, you could have a fully trained Bridge crew of your friends battling Borg or other humans. But instead...it's floating out behind your ship all by yourself... Has the 'training' that console buyers received with tailgunner arcade driving bled over to other genre? Think about the Quake & Tomb Raider titles...Quake, is first person, in the cockpit as-it-were. TR is Laura Croft's behind staring at you. Which series has stood the test of time? For many of the new Special Ops titles like Ghost Recon you can have both first person(in the cockpit) and third person(tail gunner) views. But when you need that long sniper shot, that desperate kill shot, do you stay in third person and try to aim looking over the shoulder? Nope! You switch to scope or sniper views(cockpit) to get a good aim. So has the arcade training of consoles diluted racing and other forms of gaming? Or has it suplimented a rigid format? Dave henrie

Well, the "outside" view makes the "slide detection" easier for me, I see the slide sonner and can TRY to catch it, it also make the "driving on the curbs" easier... It might also be because I'm used to it... "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message de news: i2Wk8.57477$q2.6797@sccrnsc01...

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> We've all been thru the arguments for and against driving from the > cockpit. But I had some random thoughts today that might add to the > discussion. I won't be using racing examples tho... > Recently saw a publicity screen shot of Star Trek Bridge Commander. The > trouble was...there was NO BRIDGE. Just the familiar Tailgunner view so > many of us know. A nice picture of the "D" Enterprise exchanging phaser > fire with another Wessel...errrr Vessel. But the dang title is called > "Bridge Comander" not "I'm floating behind the ship in an escape pod > Commander." > I can only imagine what the title isn't going to have. Instead of crisp > console views that have specific purposes, you merely point and click your > ship at another enemy. Couldnt' they have made an entire Bridge crew

that > carries out your orders? Imagine the mulitplayer possiblities...insteadof > Quake Clans, you could have a fully trained Bridge crew of your friends > battling Borg or other humans. But instead...it's floating out behindyour

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> ship all by yourself... > Has the 'training' that console buyers received with tailgunner arcade > driving bled over to other genre? > Think about the Quake & Tomb Raider titles...Quake, is first person, in > the cockpit as-it-were. TR is Laura Croft's behind staring at you. Which > series has stood the test of time? > For many of the new Special Ops titles like Ghost Recon you can have

both > first person(in the cockpit) and third person(tail gunner) views. Butwhen > you need that long sniper shot, that desperate kill shot, do you stay in > third person and try to aim looking over the shoulder? Nope! You switchto > scope or sniper views(cockpit) to get a good aim. > So has the arcade training of consoles diluted racing and other forms of > gaming? Or has it suplimented a rigid format? > Dave henrie > >

Great Veiwpoint! Wow your right. We all should be in the Wessel oops.. Cockpits. I make no appolligee I'm a pro cockpit person! YOu don't see Peter Brock or Dick Johnson, or Micheal Schumacer gliding along behind the car on a hang glider or sitting on the bonet. "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:i2Wk8.57477$q2.6797@sccrnsc01...

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> We've all been thru the arguments for and against driving from the > cockpit. But I had some random thoughts today that might add to the > discussion. I won't be using racing examples tho... > Recently saw a publicity screen shot of Star Trek Bridge Commander. The > trouble was...there was NO BRIDGE. Just the familiar Tailgunner view so > many of us know. A nice picture of the "D" Enterprise exchanging phaser > fire with another Wessel...errrr Vessel. But the dang title is called > "Bridge Comander" not "I'm floating behind the ship in an escape pod > Commander." > I can only imagine what the title isn't going to have. Instead of crisp > console views that have specific purposes, you merely point and click your > ship at another enemy. Couldnt' they have made an entire Bridge crew

that > carries out your orders? Imagine the mulitplayer possiblities...insteadof > Quake Clans, you could have a fully trained Bridge crew of your friends > battling Borg or other humans. But instead...it's floating out behindyour

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> ship all by yourself... > Has the 'training' that console buyers received with tailgunner arcade > driving bled over to other genre? > Think about the Quake & Tomb Raider titles...Quake, is first person, in > the cockpit as-it-were. TR is Laura Croft's behind staring at you. Which > series has stood the test of time? > For many of the new Special Ops titles like Ghost Recon you can have

both > first person(in the cockpit) and third person(tail gunner) views. Butwhen > you need that long sniper shot, that desperate kill shot, do you stay in > third person and try to aim looking over the shoulder? Nope! You switchto > scope or sniper views(cockpit) to get a good aim. > So has the arcade training of consoles diluted racing and other forms of > gaming? Or has it suplimented a rigid format? > Dave henrie > >

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:i2Wk8.57477$q2.6797@sccrnsc01...

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> We've all been thru the arguments for and against driving from the > cockpit. But I had some random thoughts today that might add to the > discussion. I won't be using racing examples tho... > Recently saw a publicity screen shot of Star Trek Bridge Commander. The > trouble was...there was NO BRIDGE. Just the familiar Tailgunner view so > many of us know. A nice picture of the "D" Enterprise exchanging phaser > fire with another Wessel...errrr Vessel. But the dang title is called > "Bridge Comander" not "I'm floating behind the ship in an escape pod > Commander." > I can only imagine what the title isn't going to have. Instead of crisp > console views that have specific purposes, you merely point and click your > ship at another enemy. Couldnt' they have made an entire Bridge crew

that > carries out your orders I haven't played this game, but I did look at the screenshots on the box and it showed a bridge with crew on board so there must be a bridge view also.

Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:i2Wk8.57477 > "Bridge Comander" not "I'm floating behind the ship in an escape pod > Commander." Does Racer have a cockpit view yet? D/l'd the latest version last night and had a go, but the graphics weren't great on my system (some odd textures on the car, and not enough fps) and I don't find it easy to drift a car through a corner from 'tailgunner' view... Jonny

>YOu don't see Peter Brock or Dick Johnson, or Micheal > Schumacer gliding along behind the car on a hang glider or sitting on the > bonet. No you don't. You also don't see them sitting at a desk looking at a 17" (15.8 viewable) screen either. They also don't try to use simulated FF thru only a steering wheel to make up for what they can feel thru their bodies. MadDAWG

> So has the arcade training of consoles diluted racing and other forms of > gaming? Or has it suplimented a rigid format? > Dave henrie I've said it before and I'll say it again: we are a long way from realistic in any of the games you mentioned. The different POV help make up for what you don't have in a game vs. real life. I personly use the cockpit view for single seater types of cars like GPL, but the offest seating position of a stockcar or rally car always has me clipping something with my RF corner. I can't count the number of times I clipped those darn road signs in the Rally Trophy demo. I don't care if there is its 3d modeled we are still looking at a 2d image. As long as a game gives you the choice of the view you want who cares what someone else uses. MadDAWG

Dave Henrie wrote: > So has the arcade training of consoles diluted racing and other forms of > gaming? Or has it suplimented a rigid format? I'd say you've hit the nail on the head. The Nintendo/PlayStation crowd has been polluting it. -- Fester "Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." -- Julius Caesar

"Jonny Hodgson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:xz3l8.20745$[email hidden]... > Does Racer have a cockpit view yet? > Racer cars have 10 cameras (number keys 1 through 0) and they're placed wherever the car.ini maker decides to put them. So cockpit views ARE possible (see Stecki's Alpine A110, for example).... the dials on the (3d modelled) dash work properly and the steering wheel turns...... no mirrors yet though.

MadDAWG wrote:

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> > > So has the arcade training of consoles diluted racing and other forms of > > gaming? Or has it suplimented a rigid format? > > Dave henrie > > I've said it before and I'll say it again: we are a long way from realistic > in any of the games you mentioned. The different POV help make up for what > you don't have in a game vs. real life. I personly use the cockpit view for > single seater types of cars like GPL, but the offest seating position of a > stockcar or rally car always has me clipping something with my RF corner. I > can't count the number of times I clipped those darn road signs in the Rally > Trophy demo. I don't care if there is its 3d modeled we are still looking at > a 2d image. As long as a game gives you the choice of the view you want who > cares what someone else uses.

I've never had any of that trouble. Maybe there's something wrong with your brain?

MadDAWG wrote:

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> > >YOu don't see Peter Brock or Dick Johnson, or Micheal > > Schumacer gliding along behind the car on a hang glider or sitting on the > > bonet. > > No you don't. You also don't see them sitting at a desk looking at a 17" > (15.8 viewable) screen either. They also don't try to use simulated FF thru > only a steering wheel to make up for what they can feel thru their bodies.

Really?! What about when they drive computer based racing sims?

> Maybe there's something wrong with > your brain? Maybe your just an asshole too MadDAWG

Let it be known that on Sun, 17 Mar 2002 05:43:42 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> Recently saw a publicity screen shot of Star Trek Bridge Commander. The >trouble was...there was NO BRIDGE. Just the familiar Tailgunner view so >many of us know. A nice picture of the "D" Enterprise exchanging phaser >fire with another Wessel...errrr Vessel. But the dang title is called >"Bridge Comander" not "I'm floating behind the ship in an escape pod >Commander." > I can only imagine what the title isn't going to have. Instead of crisp >console views that have specific purposes, you merely point and click your >ship at another enemy. Couldnt' they have made an entire Bridge crew that >carries out your orders? Imagine the mulitplayer possiblities...instead of >Quake Clans, you could have a fully trained Bridge crew of your friends >battling Borg or other humans. But instead...it's floating out behind your >ship all by yourself...

The entire point of Bridge Commander is that you are the captain and you do in fact sit in the captain's chair. You move your mouse around and aim it at your crew members to give them orders. Next time you want to badmouth a title, you may want to read a little about it first. Then you won't look like such a fool. {Christopher J. Sypal -- [email hidden]} [ The Domestic Anime CD Guide ] [ http://www.radiks.net/csypal/cds/ ]

"Christopher J. Sypal" > The entire point of Bridge Commander is that you are the captain and you do in > fact sit in the captain's chair. You move your mouse around and aim it atyour > crew members to give them orders. > > Next time you want to badmouth a title, you may want to read a littleabout it > first. Then you won't look like such a fool. > > > {Christopher J. Sypal -- Chris, I've never worried about looking or sounding the fool. It's good that the title does seem to fulfill some of it's declared intentions. But why then use 3rd person views for publicity stills? I know I didn't do ANY real research for the post, but my point was/is...we have an entire generation of gamers that seem to have been trained to accept outside views, whether from fps titles like Laura Tomb Raider Croft or the newer tactical ops titles. Of course there has always been that group of flight simmers that use outside views.(shameful) But thanks again for clairifying the gameplay. Now do they have any multiplayer posibilities??? dave henrie

MadDAWG wrote:

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> > > Maybe there's something wrong with > > your brain? > > Maybe your just an asshole too > > MadDAWG

There's no need to be like that! I'm merely stating that your brain might be harder to fool into thinking it's looking at a 3d image. Mine, on the other hand, is very easily fooled by a 2d image on screen. That, of course, will give me an advantage in driving games. Some people have poor depth perception in real life too. Maybe that's your problem? Do you have trouble parking you road car?

> There's no need to be like that! Hate to admit it but your right. >I'm merely stating that your brain > might be harder to fool into thinking it's looking at a 3d image. You might be right on this but its not because of a "brain problem". I run CAD/CAM software which includes 3d solid modeling daily. I will say that NR2002 does a better job than previous versions, but is still lacking something. >Do you have trouble parking you road car? not at all MadDAWG

>But why then use 3rd person views for publicity stills? Now I have not seen anything on the game in question, but IMO third person views make a "prettier" picture. The first person views have a smaller FOV which will make any given model take up a larger portion of the screen, therefore more of the rough edges in a model will show up. In short the graphics look better, and we all know the better the graphics the more attention a game will get, and lead to more sales. MadDAWG

MadDAWG wrote: > > > There's no need to be like that! > > Hate to admit it but your right. Hehe, NP. I should have put a ;) in. > You might be right on this but its not because of a "brain problem". I run > CAD/CAM software which includes 3d solid modeling daily. I will say that > NR2002 does a better job than previous versions, but is still lacking > something. But does your CAD work demand that you judge distance to an object while moving in the first person towards it? > >Do you have trouble parking you road car? > > not at all Ok, so you have no problem with depth and distance perception in RL. Of course our brains are being fooled by computer 3D, so I'm not surprised that same aren't fool so easily as others. That's not to infer such brains are inferior, but when it comes to sim racing they will make driving harder for their owners. If the roof cam or F10 makes it easier for those people, then fine. But it's not far for them to judge the effectiveness or realism of the in care view on the basis of faulty perception. Gerry

> If the roof cam or F10 makes it easier for those people, then fine. But > it's not far for them to judge the effectiveness or realism of the in > care view on the basis of faulty perception. > > Gerry Its also not fair for those that use cockpit cam to look down their nose at those that don't. Its this arrogant attitude that pisses me off. There is plenty of reasons someone may not use the cockpit view even if they want to. For example I have a friend that can't use the cockpit view because of the fps hit with the cockpit view. I don't think you'll find to many people that will tell you sitting on the roof or flying behind the car are realistic. But then again sitting at a desk staring at a 17 screen isn't driving a 3400 lb stock car at speed either. Either way its about enjoying what your doing. If your not enjoying it why bother doing it. There are tons of compromises in these sims to make up for what you don't get in real life. And if someone needs a different POV to make up for something thats fine by me and I don't think any less of them than someone that doesn't. I'll never understand the human desire to force other people to be just like them, and be little them if they are not. MadDAWG

Let it be known that on Mon, 18 Mar 2002 06:16:37 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote: >that the title does seem to fulfill some of it's declared intentions. But >why then use 3rd person views for publicity stills? I know I didn't do ANY Simply put, it looks pretty and will sell the game. That is the preferred view to use during combat sequences, but the way I look at it, that view is what the tactical officer would be looking at on his display. >generation of gamers that seem to have been trained to accept outside views, >whether from fps titles like Laura Tomb Raider Croft or the newer tactical Tomb raider is not a FPS. It is an adventure game that is closer to platform games than FPS's. >ops titles. Of course there has always been that group of flight simmers >that use outside views.(shameful) > But thanks again for clairifying the gameplay. Now do they have any >multiplayer posibilities??? Yes, but not in the way you mentioned. Each person gets a ship. The game wouldn't work well with multiple people on one bridge, as only one person (tactical) will be doing all the work. {Christopher J. Sypal -- [email hidden]} [ The Domestic Anime CD Guide ] [ http://www.radiks.net/csypal/cds/ ]

In article <[email hidden]>, Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> writes:

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>MadDAWG wrote: >> >> > Maybe there's something wrong with >> > your brain? >> >> Maybe your just an asshole too >> >> MadDAWG > >There's no need to be like that! I'm merely stating that your brain >might be harder to fool into thinking it's looking at a 3d image.

I have to admit, I thought you were 'slamming' him, too... Maybe you should have elaborated on your statement... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<i2Wk8.57477$q2.6797@sccrnsc01>... > We've all been thru the arguments for and against driving from the > cockpit. But I had some random thoughts today that might add to the > discussion. I won't be using racing examples tho... Here are my thoughts on playing games from a first-person perspective (I snipped most of your post because it's not wholly relative, but I've avoided these threads until I could elucidate my thoughts). I buy a racing simulator because I want to experience something I can't do in real life. Part of the experience of driving a car is sitting in the cockpit. That means having my hands and a wheel in front of me, a proper dashboard, a view-limiting windshield and a mirror. Now, IMHO people who drive from 'arcade' views aren't doing anything wrong. They have a difference set of expectations and are trying to have a different experience than I am. Someone may prefer a hood view or a behind-the-car-view or a nose view because it makes the game easier and/or more enjoyable. For me, I want to experience the same visual limitations as a real driver and have the same sense of perspective as I do in a real car and whether I'm faster or slower is irrelevant. The "I can't do this in real life but I can on a computer" aspect is why nearly everything I buy is a simulation in some sense, whether it's Nascar 2002, Mig Alley, Operation Flashpoint, Out of the Park 4, or even the Civilization games. Being able to drive in the cockpit in my racecar or have a limited field of view in my F-51 or look through the scope of an AK-47 is why I buy these games, it's why I bought Sublogic's Jet and Flight Simulator for my Apple ][. For me, it's not about fun or playability, it's about makebelieve. =) Oh yeah, I also play Space Channel 5 because I don't look good in a cute little plastic dress and still haven't found any martians to shoot while dancing to funk music. Jason

[email hidden] (jason moyer) writes: > Oh yeah, I also play Space Channel 5 because I don't look good in a > cute little plastic dress and still haven't found any martians to > shoot while dancing to funk music. you play Space Channel 5 in first person? :D -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 gnus don't kill people. gnus-summary-lower-score kills people.

Gunnar Horrigmo <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > you play Space Channel 5 in first person? :D What my girlfriend and I choose to do when we're alone is none of your business. =p Jason

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (jason moyer) writes: >the scope of an AK-47 is why I buy these games, it's why I bought >Sublogic's Jet and Flight Simulator for my Apple ][. For me, it's not >about fun or playability, it's about makebelieve. =) >Flight Simulator for Apple II?!? Wow, someone who's been gaming as long as *I* have...<g> >Oh yeah, I also play Space Channel 5 because I don't look good in a >cute little plastic dress and still haven't found any martians to >shoot while dancing to funk music. WTF?!? That's not a real game, right? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > Flight Simulator for Apple II?!? Wow, someone who's been gaming as long as *I* > have...<g> I started in the womb. Scarily, what turned me onto simulations was the gifted program at my elementary school. I was always into Pole Position and things like that but Jet and SubLogic Flight Sim blew my 10 year old mind. > WTF?!? That's not a real game, right? Yep. It's basically simon says, except that you're a sexy futuristic space reporter who has to dance (using the gamepad) to kill martians and rescue hostages. It's actually pretty fun, and helps me justify my Dreamcast purchase to my girlfriend. =) Jason