Gran Turismo 3 - oh what fun I are bin having :)

Having formatted my PC and installed only sensible apps on it just recently (I must be getting old!), I felt a need to go "racing" at the weekend so turned to the PS2... and re-discovered just what fun Gran Turismo 3 can be once more. Once upon a time I had millions of credits. Oodles of them. Then through a spectacularly poor string of car purchases in the game, I ended up with a Tommy Kaira ZZII and 200,000 credits... oh dear. Now the ZZII is a mighty fine car. Supercar, some might say. It's not an LM car though, so the chances of competing for the big money Pro tournaments like the "All Stars" was a bit unrealistic... I needed an angle to win some money in a hurry :) After a search on the internet for the various prizes on offer for different races, I decided to take my trusty little ZZII to the Endurance event at "Special Stage Route 11". I figured the aerodynamics of the big Toyota, Mazda and Nissan Lemans cars would be nullified by a twisty track. I also figured that a computer driven car wouldn't be able to hang onto it's tyres as well me - or go as fast on hard tyres. So the stage was set - off into a 50 lapper around Special Stage Route 11. I was the only "road" car in the race, albiet heavily modified and tuned for the track. The first few laps saw a ragged battle between myself and the pack, t-boning each other into corners and generally causing havoc. After that I broke clear in 3rd place and tried to stay with the Toyota and Mazda LeMans cars out front. By driving smoothly (suddenly into tyre preservation mode), I found I could match lap times or go slightly quicker - so settled down to see what tyres they were all on... As we went past about 7 laps, it became obvious I was on to something rather good - I caught the two leaders and flew past them. The Toyota was actually going backwards at a rate of knots (no doubt on blistered rubber), and the Mazda was pulling out every trick in the book to stay with me - which of course killed his tyres in the process. So they are both in at lap 8 and 9, and I'm still going. Lap 11 I pit, and emerge 3 seconds in the lead. They of course catch me on their now warm rubber, but then I succeed in pulling gently away once more. And so the pattern continued for the rest of the race. I lasted 10 to 11 laps on each set of tyres - the opposition (going about a second a lap slower) lasted 8 to 9 laps on each set of tyres. Take that up to 50 laps, and I went over the line a lap ahead of the Toyota (which had needed an extra pit-stop). Where's all this leading? I guess I'm saying that in the right conditions, Gran Turismo is a damn fine game - and the battles within it's races can be as good as any other racing game under the right circustances... Anyway - suppose I better get on with some work! Jonathan [email hidden]

"kafooey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... Where's all this leading? > > I guess I'm saying that in the right conditions, Gran Turismo is a > damn fine game - and the battles within it's races can be as good as > any other racing game under the right circustances... > But there's no AI for the computer cars. They follow a set path around the track and pit on a set schedule. If they're scheduled to pit every 8 laps, they pit every 8 laps. Even if they're 100 feet from the finish line. The tire wear is dependent upon the amount of downforce you run, but the downforce is static. It does not vary with speed. Have you noticed that if you remove all downforce that your wheels spin like mad from a standing start? Add all the downforce you want and then your wheels don't spin. No air movement so why would the downforce increase? This game gives a fine illusion of a sim, but it's anything but a sim.

Here we go with the argument of whether something is a sim or not. It is a simulation of racing, and not too bad for sitting in one's living room with a button controller in their hand. If any of these games were true simulations of racing, we'd all have hydraulically controlled, fully-outfitted cockpits with full-display windshields, and be required to fasten all the restraining belts before firing up the engine. And the engine noise not only would probably shatter the windows in our homes, but also wake the neighbors. 8-) We're all driving color pixels around limited-space screens for entertainment. As with the varied display screens and audio systems we each use, the amount of enjoyment isn't necessarily rated the same by each individual. -- Chris H. "Internet User" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3ca9b79f$[email hidden]... > "kafooey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > Where's all this leading? > > > > I guess I'm saying that in the right conditions, Gran Turismo is a > > damn fine game - and the battles within it's races can be as good as > > any other racing game under the right circustances... > > > > But there's no AI for the computer cars. They follow a set path around the > track and pit on a set schedule. If they're scheduled to pit every 8 laps, > they pit every 8 laps. Even if they're 100 feet from the finish line. The > tire wear is dependent upon the amount of downforce you run, but the > downforce is static. It does not vary with speed. Have you noticed that > if you remove all downforce that your wheels spin like mad from a standing > start? Add all the downforce you want and then your wheels don't spin. No > air movement so why would the downforce increase? > > This game gives a fine illusion of a sim, but it's anything but a sim. > > >

Chris. Hear hear. I grow so weary of the energy people expend in arguing sim Versus non-sim; PC Versus Console, etc. You are exactly correct: these are GAMES, plain and simple. Even the best of them, PC or console (and there ARE some experiences that are better had on a console) are electronic representations of the sport of racing, and none of them come close to being a real sim. For "real" sims, try these out: Commercial Racing Simulator in Minnesota http://www.smsonline.com/centers/moa_racingcenter.html or even these home made ones: http://www.hyway.com.au/747/747.html http://www.senet.com.au/~dunkleyj/motion.htm Anybody, including me, who plays racing or flight games on a PC or console, even with a racing seat as I have: http://www.racebasecockpit.com/ is playing a game. GT3 is a BLAST to play, and the fact that it might not have the most accurate physics model, or a damage model, or the fact that the AI is more like Artificial Ignorance instead of Artificial Intelligence does nothing to detract from the fact that is a very good GAME, just like the other more "realistic" racing games. After, how many of us have actually raced a Formula One car, or a NASCAR vehicle, or even a street car on closed road courses, ala SCCA (I have done the latter for several years, BTW). Dennis "Chris H." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1Kjq8.386988$[email hidden]... Here we go with the argument of whether something is a sim or not. It is a simulation of racing, and not too bad for sitting in one's living room with a button controller in their hand. If any of these games were true simulations of racing, we'd all have hydraulically controlled, fully-outfitted cockpits with full-display windshields, and be required to fasten all the restraining belts before firing up the engine. And the engine noise not only would probably shatter the windows in our homes, but also wake the neighbors. 8-) We're all driving color pixels around limited-space screens for entertainment. As with the varied display screens and audio systems we each use, the amount of enjoyment isn't necessarily rated the same by each individual. -- Chris H. "Internet User" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3ca9b79f$[email hidden]... > "kafooey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > Where's all this leading? > > > > I guess I'm saying that in the right conditions, Gran Turismo is a > > damn fine game - and the battles within it's races can be as good as > > any other racing game under the right circustances... > > > > But there's no AI for the computer cars. They follow a set path around the > track and pit on a set schedule. If they're scheduled to pit every 8 laps, > they pit every 8 laps. Even if they're 100 feet from the finish line. The > tire wear is dependent upon the amount of downforce you run, but the > downforce is static. It does not vary with speed. Have you noticed that > if you remove all downforce that your wheels spin like mad from a standing > start? Add all the downforce you want and then your wheels don't spin. No > air movement so why would the downforce increase? > > This game gives a fine illusion of a sim, but it's anything but a sim. > > >

Nice posts Chris and Dennis. Dennis, it's funny you mention the Nascar Racing sim as a "real" sim. I raced at the West Nyack location and, although I enjoyed it, I felt more comfortable at home with my sharper 21" monitor, more comfortable MOMO wheel, and the superior graphics/physics of N2002. I would like the hydraulic car but my wife would leave me. ;0) I went there thinking that the Nascar Racing center would be the Holy Grail of racing, but I actually had the Holy Grail right at home. ;0) Right now F1 2001 with the ALMS add-on is my Holy Grail. -- Joe Marques "Dennis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6skq8.159264$af7.78000@rwcrnsc53... Chris. Hear hear. I grow so weary of the energy people expend in arguing sim Versus non-sim; PC Versus Console, etc. You are exactly correct: these are GAMES, plain and simple. Even the best of them, PC or console (and there ARE some experiences that are better had on a console) are electronic representations of the sport of racing, and none of them come close to being a real sim. For "real" sims, try these out: Commercial Racing Simulator in Minnesota http://www.smsonline.com/centers/moa_racingcenter.html or even these home made ones: http://www.hyway.com.au/747/747.html http://www.senet.com.au/~dunkleyj/motion.htm Anybody, including me, who plays racing or flight games on a PC or console, even with a racing seat as I have: http://www.racebasecockpit.com/ is playing a game. GT3 is a BLAST to play, and the fact that it might not have the most accurate physics model, or a damage model, or the fact that the AI is more like Artificial Ignorance instead of Artificial Intelligence does nothing to detract from the fact that is a very good GAME, just like the other more "realistic" racing games. After, how many of us have actually raced a Formula One car, or a NASCAR vehicle, or even a street car on closed road courses, ala SCCA (I have done the latter for several years, BTW). Dennis "Chris H." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1Kjq8.386988$[email hidden]... Here we go with the argument of whether something is a sim or not. It is a simulation of racing, and not too bad for sitting in one's living room with a button controller in their hand. If any of these games were true simulations of racing, we'd all have hydraulically controlled, fully-outfitted cockpits with full-display windshields, and be required to fasten all the restraining belts before firing up the engine. And the engine noise not only would probably shatter the windows in our homes, but also wake the neighbors. 8-) We're all driving color pixels around limited-space screens for entertainment. As with the varied display screens and audio systems we each use, the amount of enjoyment isn't necessarily rated the same by each individual. -- Chris H. "Internet User" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3ca9b79f$[email hidden]... > "kafooey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > Where's all this leading? > > > > I guess I'm saying that in the right conditions, Gran Turismo is a > > damn fine game - and the battles within it's races can be as good as > > any other racing game under the right circustances... > > > > But there's no AI for the computer cars. They follow a set path around the > track and pit on a set schedule. If they're scheduled to pit every 8 laps, > they pit every 8 laps. Even if they're 100 feet from the finish line. The > tire wear is dependent upon the amount of downforce you run, but the > downforce is static. It does not vary with speed. Have you noticed that > if you remove all downforce that your wheels spin like mad from a standing > start? Add all the downforce you want and then your wheels don't spin. No > air movement so why would the downforce increase? > > This game gives a fine illusion of a sim, but it's anything but a sim. > > >

Regardless.......i had great worrys about buying a PS2 and Grand Turismo and i was shocked as its a great game, very fast ( later cars ) and much fun. Plus its never ever crashed or blue screend once............ lets hope my x-box is going tobe that good.

"Dennis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6skq8.159264$af7.78000@rwcrnsc53... Chris. >> GT3 is a BLAST to play, and the fact that it might not have the most >> accurate physics model, or a damage model, or the fact that the AI is >> more like Artificial Ignorance instead of Artificial Intelligence does >> nothing to detract from the fact that is a very good GAME, just like the >> other more "realistic" racing games. The point of my post was to call into question some of the points the original poster made. He wrote of using a good car on twisty tracks, using the computers choice of cars and pit stop strategy to have an enjoyable race. I feel that GT3 fails in two of these areas. I find the driving model to be excellent, but the AI and pitstop strategy of the computer to be lacking. GT3 is a fantastic driving game, but a very poor racing game. A racing game must have AI to be any good and GT3 fails in this regard. I love playing this game. Nowhere in my post did I raise the comparison between consoles and pc's. I own three consoles (PS2, Dreamcast and XBox) and play games on those three machines far more than my PC. My point was not one of sim vs. non sim, but a good racing game vs a bad racing game. Again, GT3 is an excellent driving game. Not a game where you can necessarily sit back and enjoy an excellent race, because the computer didn't put up an excellent race. It simply went around the track on a preprogrammed path and a preprogrammed pitstop strategy. It doesn't adapt a race around your car. It would race the same race whether you're on the track or not.

LOL! Here's what you said: "This game gives a fine illusion of a sim, but it's anything but a sim." What I said was basically that NONE of what we're calling "sims" are actually sims because each has flaws in one or more areas. It is the entertainment of the game which makes it enjoyable for the user, not how sim-like it might be. Just because someone posts about their enjoyment of the game, isn't a reason to decry that flaws within that game. We could all just sit around all day picking apart various games, because there really isn't a true racing car simulation on the market that any of us want-to-be racers could afford. I believe I enjoyed GT2 more than GT3. Why? Because of tire wear. And that's possibly because I don't "tune" well. Without many, many trials and errors, I can wear out a set of tires at Seattle Circuit within three laps in GT3. That makes the game difficult for me, and possibly less enjoying, but also more educational than GT2 because I'm determined to figure it out. But I don't sit back and criticize the game because someone has posted their enjoyment of it. That would be like criticizing sex. A blonde? HA! You don't know what sex is until you've been with a brunette/redhead/black-haired . . . with blue/green/brown eyes. You don't get the true picture of what sex can really be like until your partner is over/under 5-4, weighs over/under 120 pounds. 8-) It is the individual's perception of being entertained with the game, not whether you or I think it has flaws. -- Chris H. "Internet User" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3caa234d$[email hidden]... > > Chris. > > The point of my post was to call into question some of the points the > original poster made. He wrote of using a good car on twisty tracks, using > the computers choice of cars and pit stop strategy to have an enjoyable > race. I feel that GT3 fails in two of these areas. I find the driving > model to be excellent, but the AI and pitstop strategy of the computer to be > lacking. > > GT3 is a fantastic driving game, but a very poor racing game. A racing game > must have AI to be any good and GT3 fails in this regard. I love playing > this game. Nowhere in my post did I raise the comparison between consoles > and pc's. I own three > consoles (PS2, Dreamcast and XBox) and play games on those three machines > far more than my PC. My point was not one of sim vs. non sim, but a good > racing game vs a bad racing game. Again, GT3 is an excellent driving game. > Not a game where you can necessarily sit back and enjoy an excellent race, > because the computer didn't put up an excellent race. It simply went around > the track on a preprogrammed path and a preprogrammed pitstop strategy. It > doesn't adapt a race around your car. It would race the same race whether > you're on the track or not. > > > >

"Chris H." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:TNpq8.163175$[email hidden]... >> LOL! Here's what you said: >> "This game gives a fine illusion of a sim, but it's anything but a sim." I know what I wrote and I stand by it. I don't consider GT3 a sim because it doesn't do a very good job of simulating racing which is what the original poster was getting at. Passing, pitstop strategy, "battles within it's races" as described by the poster. It doesn't have any of that really. The area of the game that was praised were it's worse qualities. If the poster had said "this is an excellent game in that it does a great job of modeling different cars and the physics that go along with them" then I would have said he's 100% correct. It is a great game in that respect. >> But I don't sit back and criticize the game because someone has posted >> their enjoyment of it. That would be like criticizing sex. A blonde? >> HA! You don't know what sex is until you've been with a >> brunette/redhead/black-haired . . . with blue/green/brown eyes. I'm sorry, I guess I thought this was a usenet forum intended for open discussion on topics. Next time I won't post unless I whole heartedly agree with the original poster. In fact, I don't think anyone should post anything because there's no reason to start a discussion if there's nothing to discuss.

Bah, NO car damage, NO Artificial Intelligence worth a crap, UNREALISTIC physics, low resolution, jaggies, crawlies... keep it, be glad you enjoy the arcade game, cause I think it stinks. :) "kafooey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Having formatted my PC and installed only sensible apps on it just > recently (I must be getting old!), I felt a need to go "racing" at the > weekend so turned to the PS2... and re-discovered just what fun Gran > Turismo 3 can be once more. > > Once upon a time I had millions of credits. Oodles of them. Then > through a spectacularly poor string of car purchases in the game, I > ended up with a Tommy Kaira ZZII and 200,000 credits... oh dear. > > Now the ZZII is a mighty fine car. Supercar, some might say. It's not > an LM car though, so the chances of competing for the big money Pro > tournaments like the "All Stars" was a bit unrealistic... I needed an > angle to win some money in a hurry :) > > After a search on the internet for the various prizes on offer for > different races, I decided to take my trusty little ZZII to the > Endurance event at "Special Stage Route 11". I figured the > aerodynamics of the big Toyota, Mazda and Nissan Lemans cars would be > nullified by a twisty track. I also figured that a computer driven car > wouldn't be able to hang onto it's tyres as well me - or go as fast on > hard tyres. > > So the stage was set - off into a 50 lapper around Special Stage Route > 11. I was the only "road" car in the race, albiet heavily modified and > tuned for the track. > > The first few laps saw a ragged battle between myself and the pack, > t-boning each other into corners and generally causing havoc. After > that I broke clear in 3rd place and tried to stay with the Toyota and > Mazda LeMans cars out front. By driving smoothly (suddenly into tyre > preservation mode), I found I could match lap times or go slightly > quicker - so settled down to see what tyres they were all on... > > As we went past about 7 laps, it became obvious I was on to something > rather good - I caught the two leaders and flew past them. The Toyota > was actually going backwards at a rate of knots (no doubt on blistered > rubber), and the Mazda was pulling out every trick in the book to stay > with me - which of course killed his tyres in the process. > > So they are both in at lap 8 and 9, and I'm still going. Lap 11 I pit, > and emerge 3 seconds in the lead. They of course catch me on their now > warm rubber, but then I succeed in pulling gently away once more. > > And so the pattern continued for the rest of the race. I lasted 10 to > 11 laps on each set of tyres - the opposition (going about a second a > lap slower) lasted 8 to 9 laps on each set of tyres. Take that up to > 50 laps, and I went over the line a lap ahead of the Toyota (which had > needed an extra pit-stop). > > Where's all this leading? > > I guess I'm saying that in the right conditions, Gran Turismo is a > damn fine game - and the battles within it's races can be as good as > any other racing game under the right circustances... > > Anyway - suppose I better get on with some work! > > Jonathan > [email hidden]

"Chris H." <[email hidden]> writes: > You don't get the true picture of what sex can really be like until > your partner is over/under 5-4, 5 ? That's way too young, man. And 4? Geez. -- -asbjxrn

Dont worry about AI for the next GT4, as its going to have multiplayer. Ive already seen lots of people getting into the beta-test program for Sonys Twisted Metal Black - Online. Both with modems and broadband, and it works great from what ive heard. Maximum 8 players in that game though, so lets hope that GT4 doesnt stick with 6 players.. at least 10 would be nice :) "Internet User" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3caa234d$[email hidden]...

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> > "Dennis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:6skq8.159264$af7.78000@rwcrnsc53... > Chris. > > >> GT3 is a BLAST to play, and the fact that it might not have the most > >> accurate physics model, or a damage model, or the fact that the AI is > >> more like Artificial Ignorance instead of Artificial Intelligence does > >> nothing to detract from the fact that is a very good GAME, just like

the > >> other more "realistic" racing games. > > The point of my post was to call into question some of the points the > original poster made. He wrote of using a good car on twisty tracks,using > the computers choice of cars and pit stop strategy to have an enjoyable > race. I feel that GT3 fails in two of these areas. I find the driving > model to be excellent, but the AI and pitstop strategy of the computer tobe > lacking. > > GT3 is a fantastic driving game, but a very poor racing game. A racinggame > must have AI to be any good and GT3 fails in this regard. I love playing > this game. Nowhere in my post did I raise the comparison between consoles > and pc's. I own three > consoles (PS2, Dreamcast and XBox) and play games on those threemachines > far more than my PC. My point was not one of sim vs. non sim, but a good > racing game vs a bad racing game. Again, GT3 is an excellent drivinggame. > Not a game where you can necessarily sit back and enjoy an excellentrace, > because the computer didn't put up an excellent race. It simply wentaround > the track on a preprogrammed path and a preprogrammed pitstop strategy.It > doesn't adapt a race around your car. It would race the same race whether > you're on the track or not. > > >

1. Its got damage, but not visible damage due to the manufactors. 2. No AI worth a crap?, well then most games stinks. 3. I think GT3 does a pretty good job with basic car-behaviour, like over/understeering depending on car-type, and how you enter a corner etc. Going off throttle in turn. Im no expert at all btw. I even enjoy GT2's physics :D If it wasnt for the bad tire-behaviour, i would think its really really great. If you use the "real tires" that can be bought for a couple of cars, it feels quite nice. Still not like a real car, but its so good anyway, cause the limited ram of the PSX (2MB) and a 33MHz cpu without a FPU-unit. GT3 does a good job too, with 300MHz cpu, altough a really powerfull FPU, and 32MB of ram :) "shpankey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2Svq8.3685$[email hidden]... > Bah, NO car damage, NO Artificial Intelligence worth a crap, UNREALISTIC > physics, low resolution, jaggies, crawlies... keep it, be glad you enjoythe > arcade game, cause I think it stinks. :)

>>Gran Turismo 3 In addition to a legion of other senseless replies, a poster wrote... > Bah, NO car damage, NO Artificial Intelligence worth a crap, UNREALISTIC > physics, low resolution, jaggies, crawlies... keep it, be glad you enjoy the > arcade game, cause I think it stinks. :) What a truly anal group of people you are in this newsgroup.

"Chris H." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<TNpq8.163175$[email hidden]>... > LOL! Here's what you said: > "This game gives a fine illusion of a sim, but it's anything but a sim." > > What I said was basically that NONE of what we're calling "sims" are > actually sims because each has flaws in one or more areas. That is wrong. Main Entry: sim�u�la�tor Pronunciation: 'sim-y&-"lA-t&r Function: noun Date: 1835 : one that simulates; especially : a device that enables the operator to reproduce or represent under test conditions phenomena likely to occur in actual performance Grand Prix Legends, Nascar 2002, F1 2001, Rally Trophy, and the DTR series are all designed to reproduce the phenomena of their respective focii in as much detail as possible within the limitations of PC hardware. They would, as such, be classified as simulations. They all have flaws, but it clear that their focus is more on the reproduction of real-life phenomena than on compromise in the name of playability. GT3 is not a sim, nor does it pretend to be one. I've never seen anyone other than a handful of PSX zealouts call it a simulation. It was a racing game designed for gamers, not simulation enthusiasts. The developer's goal was clearly to create a game that is fun to play and bears some resemblance to reality, which is an honorable goal, but I wouldn't call it a simulation per the stated dictionary definition. Jason

Five FEET, four INCHES in height. 8-) I said nothing about age, because women don't like their age talked about. 8-) -- Chris H. "Asbjørn Bjørnstad" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "Chris H." <[email hidden]> writes: > > > You don't get the true picture of what sex can really be like until > > your partner is over/under 5-4, > > 5 ? That's way too young, man. And 4? Geez. > -- > -asbjxrn >

On 03 Apr 2002 10:28:16 +0200, [email hidden] (Asbj�rn Bj�rnstad) wrote: >"Chris H." <[email hidden]> writes: > >> You don't get the true picture of what sex can really be like until >> your partner is over/under 5-4, > >5 ? That's way too young, man. And 4? Geez. Actually, 5-4 = 1! ;-) But one-day flies often consider 1 day of age fertile enough. :) Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

"Andreas Nystrom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:g6Aq8.36829$[email hidden]... > 1. Its got damage, but not visible damage due to the manufactors. Are you sure about this? I don't recall any performance changes after collisions, although I didn't crash much to be honest. > 2. No AI worth a crap?, well then most games stinks. Not sure what you mean by this? If we assume GT3 AI meets the paltry industry standards this does not make it acceptable. Sucking just as much as the competition shouldn't be the standard. ;0) I believe most racing games DO in fact stink because of flawed AI. If the goal is to RACE and not hot lap then good RACING AI is critical. Passing/Blocking logic. Realisitic lap times based on the GAME PHYSICS and not enhanced performance/grip to cheat. I want AI that can make a mistake and cause a crash. This happens in F1 2001 ALMS mod often and it's fun for me to come around a corner and see 2 AI cars colliding, spinning and tires smoking. It gets the adrenaline flowing since you must quickly try to avoid crashing and you can't see very well because of the tire smoke and dirt if they veered off track a bit. I want AI that is aware of my presence so it doesn't drive me off the road or rear end me when I'm running solid laps. GPL has the best AI I've ever seen. I've run dozens of consecutive laps surrounded by AI cars with no ridiculous rear ends or side swipes (other than reasonable driver error). F1 2001 is pretty damn good but not up to GPL standards. NR2002 is very good. Surprisingly a PS One game called Jarrett and Labonte Racing had very good AI. This is the basis for a highly anticipated game Race Car Driver coming to PC/PS2 in June. GT3 has NO racing AI. GT3 has lapping AI. The cars run perfect lines and have NO idea when a human player is nearby. In GT3 I run away from the AI because they either rear-end or side swip me. Bottom line for me is GT3 fails as a RACING game but succeeds as a driving game. I get bored racing alone most of the time. If they do challenge me it's only 6 cars and they are too hazardous to drive closely. > 3. I think GT3 does a pretty good job with basic car-behaviour, like > over/understeering depending on > car-type, and how you enter a corner etc. Going off throttle in turn. I agree. I think GT3 is a fine driving game. It feels the way I expect those cars to feel (other than the inability to lock the wheels under braking). Playing on a 36" digital set with surround sound and a FF wheel is a damn good driving experience. -- Joe Marques

No, it's called MY opinion. Of course I have one. No, it's not "anal" either. That's you being overly sensitive to my opinion, and because you are not agreeing with it, are going to have your hissy and call this whole group "anal" because you don't have the emotional aptitude to handle it. The only thing on this forum that bothers me is that sometimes people get so upset because someone disagrees with them and then they feel the need to lash out because of it. Grow up and get over it. My opinion is that Gran Turismo is too arcadey for me, and I really don't like the game in any sense (got the game as a special PS2+GT3 package deal). Yes, I'm about 50% through the game, and have sense just quit playing it altogether. There are to many truly great racers out there that I would rather play. -Chad "kafooey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >>Gran Turismo 3 > > In addition to a legion of other senseless replies, a poster wrote... > > > Bah, NO car damage, NO Artificial Intelligence worth a crap, UNREALISTIC > > physics, low resolution, jaggies, crawlies... keep it, be glad you enjoythe > > arcade game, cause I think it stinks. :) > > What a truly anal group of people you are in this newsgroup.

Hey Kafooey - great name btw, it's a clever use of onomatopoeia =0) First, calling this thread "a legion of senseless replies" tells me you're a bit too defensive regarding your post, lighten up will ya! :0) Second, if one is anal to reasonably criticize a game for obvious flaws, then is one a complete dolt for NOT noticing them? <tongue firmly in cheek> ;0) You do realize that you propose a pointless TRIPLE standard? Praise is encouraged, fair criticism is not, and agreement with your point of view is required. What ever happened to balance? GT3 is a fun driving game. It also has serious flaws that should not exist in the 3rd fricken generation of the series. There are pros AND cons. I vote that we talk about both. Potential consumers should know the whole story, not just the flowery praise. Let advertisers take care of the latter. ;0) You give the GT3 AI far too much credit for tactical behavior: ". . . the Mazda was pulling out every trick in the book to stay with me - which of course killed his tyres in the process." The Mazda was running hot laps completely unaware of your position on the track and its standing in the race. It was programmed to run the same lap over and over again and pit every X interval regardless of the situation. I've raced the best AI racing games and the worst AI racing games. GT3 is near the bottom in terms of racing strategy and behavior. Try a good NASCAR sim and watch the AI block like mad on the last lap. This is situational awareness which GT3 utterly lacks. In GT3 the AI cars simply run hot laps in a vacuum. Your description exaggerates their race consciousness and strategic ability in my opinion. Realizing that there's no objective fact that can prove either of us right, it's essential that we BOTH post our opposing views and let the users decide which view is more credible. This has always been the value of a newsgroup for me. The PROS are of little use if there is no mention of the CONS. No one is trying to curb your positive enthusiasm, therefore, you should not try to curb the criticism offered by myself and others. If we don't analyze, criticize and debate then how do we expect Sony or any other company to deliver what we truly want and deserve? -- Joe Marques - anti-Lemming Coalition. ;0) "kafooey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >>Gran Turismo 3 > > In addition to a legion of other senseless replies, a poster wrote... > > > Bah, NO car damage, NO Artificial Intelligence worth a crap, UNREALISTIC > > physics, low resolution, jaggies, crawlies... keep it, be glad you enjoy the > > arcade game, cause I think it stinks. :) > > What a truly anal group of people you are in this newsgroup. >

I just finished a six-week league there I am about to start another one this Sunday "Dennis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6skq8.159264$af7.78000@rwcrnsc53... Chris. : Commercial Racing Simulator in Minnesota http://www.smsonline.com/centers/moa_racingcenter.html

In article <GZEq8.543636$[email hidden]>, "Joe Marques" <[email hidden]> writes: >GPL has the best AI I've ever seen. I've run dozens of consecutive laps >surrounded by AI cars with no ridiculous rear ends or side swipes (other >than reasonable driver error). Then you've been *extremely* lucky. When GPL first came out, this board was filled with complaints about the AI running people over. The standout seemed to be a certain Honda...<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.