How many practice laps?

Ok, let's see the answers to this. I've heard and read about people(hotshoes) running thousands of laps at a particular track. They(and others) point to that as the reason that they're so fast. My question is, what can you learn in 1000 laps that you can't learn in 100? You can learn how the track goes in less than 20. I'm not talking about running a few laps, tweaking the setup, running some more to see how the changes affect your car. For someone who can't change setups(like me) what else could I *possibly* learn that I can't in 100 laps? Does the advice of "drive more laps" really make sense? Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions' blazing 2001 start of 0-12??? Currently at 0-10 as of April13th...stay tuned... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I got to the point where I was maximising my setups. I gave it to an alien and he was doing the same speeds as me. I had to do lots more laps to improve the setup, tweak it, more laps, tweak it over and over. You may have got to the same point so the only way ahead would be to adjust your setups for more speed. -- --------------- Steve Levett "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Ok, let's see the answers to this. I've heard and read about people(hotshoes) > running thousands of laps at a particular track. They(and others) point to > that as the reason that they're so fast. My question is, what can you learn in > 1000 laps that you can't learn in 100? You can learn how the track goes in > less than 20. I'm not talking about running a few laps, tweaking the setup, > running some more to see how the changes affect your car. For someone who > can't change setups(like me) what else could I *possibly* learn that I can't in > 100 laps? Does the advice of "drive more laps" really make sense? > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions' blazing 2001 start of 0-12??? > Currently at 0-10 as of April13th...stay tuned... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

[email hidden] (EldredP) writes:

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> Ok, let's see the answers to this. I've heard and read about > people(hotshoes) running thousands of laps at a particular track. > They(and others) point to that as the reason that they're so fast. My > question is, what can you learn in 1000 laps that you can't learn in > 100? You can learn how the track goes in less than 20. I'm not talking > about running a few laps, tweaking the setup, running some more to see > how the changes affect your car. For someone who can't change > setups(like me) what else could I *possibly* learn that I can't in 100 > laps? Does the advice of "drive more laps" really make sense?

FWIW, back in my RL racing days, we always figured it took somewhere around 5 hours of track time to "get it down". -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 "a poster is a human being or the software equivalent"

It is very subtle changes. I usually only need like 10 laps to get consistent lap times. The problem is that I don't know where I can push it, so I usually go off a lot after this initial period. After about 30 laps, I am pretty inconsistent, but know where I can push it, and how much I can push it. More laps in, I slowly start gaining, pushing the car a tiny bit more on the exit. After a while, the monotony of driving the same track makes me want to push the car, so at least I start to gain time slowly. -Stuart Becktell "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Ok, let's see the answers to this. I've heard and read aboutpeople(hotshoes) > running thousands of laps at a particular track. They(and others) pointto > that as the reason that they're so fast. My question is, what can youlearn in > 1000 laps that you can't learn in 100? You can learn how the track goesin > less than 20. I'm not talking about running a few laps, tweaking thesetup, > running some more to see how the changes affect your car. For someone who > can't change setups(like me) what else could I *possibly* learn that Ican't in

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> 100 laps? Does the advice of "drive more laps" really make sense? > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions' blazing 2001 start of

0-12??? > Currently at 0-10 as of April13th...stay tuned... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Eldred: I suppose the "answer" would have something to do with what you were seeking from the racing sims you run. Are you "simulating" real-world racing.....for your fun and enjoyment? Or, are you just trying to go as fast as physically possible....with no limitations as to the number of laps or seat time (or crashes)? Both are fun and enjoyable activities.....and to some extent, most of the sim community probably does "a little of both." If you are only interested in "winning" in online racing.....then you probably are not going to have as much "fun" with your sims as you'd expect. I think it would be safe to say, "There will always be someone who has more laps, more seat-time...and more tweaking to their setup.....on any given track....than you, and therefore always faster." Does that mean that person will always win? No. But in the typical online racing we have today.....a few drivers essentially running around solo in short (relatively short compared to 100% races) online races (league racing would be the exception).....its probably going to boil down to the fastest driver nearly always winning. Whereas, in real-life racing.....the fastest driver wins less than 50% of the time. Remember, the fastest driver is not always the best racecar driver.....because being "fast" is only one element of around 10.....that contribute to winning races consistently. In sim racing, I suppose it would be safe to say that each track/racing sim.....has a physical *limit* to the absolute fastest you could traverse the circuit....based on the physics model of the car, setup parameters, etc. Some sim drivers enjoy trying to find out what that is......others want to race other cars/drivers, where "fast" is only part of the formula. In NASCAR 2002, you might want to have some fun and set up a scenario that would be similar to a rookie NASCAR driver/team. This will "test" your racecar driving, racecar setup adjusting and "race-craft" skills: 1. Go to a track you have never run before.....start with the "easy" setup. This would be equivalent to a rookie NASCAR driver with a rookie crew chief....showing up at a track for the first time.......and your starting setup is something kind of made up of common sense and a few "notes" borrowed from another team or the crew chief's past experience on another team with a different car.....i.e., better than nothing...but not by much! 2. Set your practice sessions to be the exact equivalent of what a Winston Cup team gets for track time....at the same race track (in real-life) on a Winston Cup race weekend. 3. Run the practice sessions, qualifying and 100% race. Where did you finish? 4. Now....after a "rest period".....go do it all again. Now, where did you finish? Better? If so, then you learned something that you applied in the second race. If not, well....maybe "luck" had more to do with your finish than "skill and knowledge"....try it again. And again, and again! [Note: This may be different for others, and I have not "tested" this at all of the WC tracks in N2K2 as of yet. So, with that caveat in mind, I have found that setting the AI strength at 90% generally is about right. On a new track, on "easy" I will be running in the back of the pack (with the AI at 90%)....and improve over the course of the simulated "race weekend" where I'm running around middle pack in practice.....first race weekend. After doing this a few times at the same track, I end up pretty solidly in the top-ten. I then take a look at what the real-world drivers are running at the same track....and in some cases adjust the AI slider a little bit after that.....to get the AI running as close to the same spread of lap times as the real-world cup cars. That's not always totally possible to do....but its close most of the time.] I think you'll see that as you continue to repeat this scenario at the same track, your ability to finish higher and higher in the actual race should improve. Now do this for all of the Winston Cup tracks....and you'll have an idea what driver experience and race team experience means in real-world Winston Cup racing. Or any other form of racing for that matter. In general, I find that on the tracks in N2K2 that I have a lot of "race-weekend experience" like I've described above, I tend to do much better in online races at those tracks than the ones I don't have this experience built up at. Most of the time I manage to finish in the top10% of the number of drivers I'm racing online.....on occasion, I am the fastest driver on the track and win. But this is only on tracks where I've been doing this "weekend race scenario" a lot. On other tracks, I usually get my butt kicked in online races. I hope this gives you some "food for thought" about your question. A very good one, IMHO. Regards, Tom "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Ok, let's see the answers to this. I've heard and read aboutpeople(hotshoes) > running thousands of laps at a particular track. They(and others) pointto > that as the reason that they're so fast. My question is, what can youlearn in > 1000 laps that you can't learn in 100? You can learn how the track goesin > less than 20. I'm not talking about running a few laps, tweaking thesetup, > running some more to see how the changes affect your car. For someone who > can't change setups(like me) what else could I *possibly* learn that Ican't in

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> 100 laps? Does the advice of "drive more laps" really make sense? > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions' blazing 2001 start of

0-12??? > Currently at 0-10 as of April13th...stay tuned... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote:

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> > Ok, let's see the answers to this. I've heard and read about people(hotshoes) > running thousands of laps at a particular track. They(and others) point to > that as the reason that they're so fast. My question is, what can you learn in > 1000 laps that you can't learn in 100? You can learn how the track goes in > less than 20. I'm not talking about running a few laps, tweaking the setup, > running some more to see how the changes affect your car. For someone who > can't change setups(like me) what else could I *possibly* learn that I can't in > 100 laps? Does the advice of "drive more laps" really make sense?

To me it does, I'm a slow learner :-) I need to run enough laps at a track to be able to drive it without thinking about the track itself, to a point where driving the particular track is second nature to me It's at this point I start to make some real improvements in my lap times Take WG (I only drive road courses), I currently have about 100 laps or so there, and it's just now that I'm really getting to grips with the car and the subtle things that will improve my lap times Currently in the low 1:17's with what is basically the "fast" setup, which is not a setup that I particularly enjoy to drive, but it's only now that I'm comfortable enough with the car and the track to make setup changes that makes sense, and yes, even if I'd stick to the "fast" setup I'd improve my lap times, not to mention that I'll be a much safer driver with other cars on the track when I don't have to concentrate on the driving itself This is one of the reasons I don't do much oval racing, it's so damn boring pounding around the track to find that little bit extra speed or improve the tire wear, I actually enjoy racing on some of the tracks, it's practicing them that kills my enjoyment, compared to a road course where I can practice for hours....:-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com http://www.teammirage.com "Animation isn't the illusion of life; it is life" --Chuck Jones (1912-2002)--

In article <a9c2o5$1sbpv$[email hidden]>, "Steve Levett" <[email hidden]> writes: >I got to the point where I was maximising my setups. I gave it to an alien >and he was doing the same speeds as me. I had to do lots more laps to >improve the setup, tweak it, more laps, tweak it over and over. You may have >got to the same point so the only way ahead would be to adjust your setups >for more speed. That's just it - I've never been able to work on setups. Besides, it's been proven that the default setups in GPL(for example) are more than good enough to beat the benchmark times. Ignore the setup issue - what else can I learn in 1000's of laps that I haven't in 100's? Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions' blazing 2001 start of 0-12??? Currently at 0-11 as of April14th...stay tuned...one more to tie Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <J7iu8.12692$[email hidden]>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Eldred: > >I suppose the "answer" would have something to do with what you were seeking >from the racing sims you run. Are you "simulating" real-world >racing.....for your fun and enjoyment? Or, are you just trying to go as >fast as physically possible....with no limitations as to the number of laps >or seat time (or crashes)? Both are fun and enjoyable activities.....and to >some extent, most of the sim community probably does "a little of both."

I know I'll *never* be a hotlapper, but more on that later.

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>If you are only interested in "winning" in online racing.....then you >probably are not going to have as much "fun" with your sims as you'd expect. >I think it would be safe to say, "There will always be someone who has more >laps, more seat-time...and more tweaking to their setup.....on any given >track....than you, and therefore always faster." Does that mean that person >will always win? No. But in the typical online racing we have today.....a >few drivers essentially running around solo in short (relatively short >compared to 100% races) online races (league racing would be the >exception).....its probably going to boil down to the fastest driver nearly >always winning. Whereas, in real-life racing.....the fastest driver wins >less than 50% of the time. Remember, the fastest driver is not always the >best racecar driver.....because being "fast" is only one element of around >10.....that contribute to winning races consistently.

Winning isn't my only interest, but it would be NICE... If I run 1000 laps and I'm still 5 seconds slower than someone who's only done 50, something is wrong there. >In sim racing, I suppose it would be safe to say that each track/racing >sim.....has a physical *limit* to the absolute fastest you could traverse >the circuit....based on the physics model of the car, setup parameters, etc. >Some sim drivers enjoy trying to find out what that is......others want to >race other cars/drivers, where "fast" is only part of the formula. Yes, "fast" is part of the formula. But the problem is this. Say someone's PB is 8-10 seconds faster than me at a given track. Even if he goes at 90% during a race and slows by 5 seconds, the times he runs are still faster than I've EVER gone there. I need to find a way to get inside of his 90% time. If someone is running at only 90%, they shouldn't be falling off the track, as they are well within their 'limits'. So that means that I can't race with anyone - they're all faster, and I just end up driving around by myself. Yes, part of it is an ego thing, but that's just BORING... >I hope this gives you some "food for thought" about your question. A very >good one, IMHO. Thank you. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions' blazing 2001 start of 0-12??? Currently at 0-11 as of April14th...stay tuned...one more to tie Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

You can't really learn anything with all those laps. All they are doing is taking a sim and turning it into nothing but a hand/eye (and foot) coordination exercise and burning each movement into their sub conscious. You should be able to close your eyes and do fast laps with that much practice. I've pissed some people off with similiar comments to that in the past but it's simple logic really. MS does how many laps each year at a particular track before a race? Along with not having any physical or monetary consequences, I think the ability to do unlimited laps in practice is the single biggest reason why sim racing is so far from the real thing. I don't know how some people can sit down and do all those laps, I get a headache and very bored if I do too many. 100 laps spread apart over a few days should be enough on most tracks for me to get used to a track and discover it's subtelities. I always do better if I do a short session of practice and then come back to it later for a little more. From reading your posts over time, I really wonder if you have your controller set up correctly for whatever sim you're running. I know you were frustrated with F2001 for that reason. I'm wondering with N2002, what controller do you use, do you use left foot braking, and what exactly is your linear/non-linear setting? Having the controller set up correctly, and keeping the fps above at least 35 at all times are extremely important. David G Fisher "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Ok, let's see the answers to this. I've heard and read aboutpeople(hotshoes) > running thousands of laps at a particular track. They(and others) pointto > that as the reason that they're so fast. My question is, what can youlearn in > 1000 laps that you can't learn in 100? You can learn how the track goesin > less than 20. I'm not talking about running a few laps, tweaking thesetup, > running some more to see how the changes affect your car. For someone who > can't change setups(like me) what else could I *possibly* learn that Ican't in

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> 100 laps? Does the advice of "drive more laps" really make sense? > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions' blazing 2001 start of

0-12??? > Currently at 0-10 as of April13th...stay tuned... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. >

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4Uou8.39864$[email hidden]... > You can't really learn anything with all those laps. All they aredoing is > taking a sim and turning it into nothing but a hand/eye (and foot) > coordination exercise and burning each movement into their subconscious. > You should be able to close your eyes and do fast laps with that much > practice. I've pissed some people off with similiar comments to thatin the > past but it's simple logic really. > etc. That's an interesting reply because that touches on something I wanted to add to this post. First, you guys know that I am pretty new at sim racing so I don't really know what it takes to go fast and do it consistently. Keep that in mind as you read what I have to say. I practiced and later taught Karate for about a ten year period. The Grand Master that I trained under was a relatively scientific minded fellow, at least in comparison to his peers, and had studied a lot over the years about different training methods, human physiology, etc. He often talked about how the goal was to be able to execute perfect techniques without any more mental effort than it takes to walk, and how this was achieved through "muscle memory". Muscle memory meant practicing a technique endlessly until you didn't have to think about it anymore to do it. In my own studies since then I now tend to think that what he was referring to was exactly what you said above, burning it into the subconscious so that it does not require conscious attention to execute a technique. And that's exactly why I think it IS important. One Karate teacher from another school once said that he believes it takes 1000 correct repetitions of a technique to master it. His defintion of mastering it was essentially the same as my own teacher's idea of being able to execute it perfectly without conscious thought. This is the cornerstone of Asian martial arts philosophy (actually the cornerstone of all Asian arts in general), and the reason why the Asian martial arts have developed such a formidable reputation over the years. It is also essentially the same training philosophy that top athletes in many other physical disciplines have learned. And I think it applies to racing too. Why? Because if you have to think about where you are on the track, you aren't thinking about the cars around you. Performance in any competition is improved when the physical skills are relegated to the subconscious mind, leaving the conscious mind free to attend to strategy and tactics. An example from the martial arts again - there are jumping and spinning kicks that are usually not taught to beginners because they are slow and difficult to perform. My instructor started teaching us right away, because he wanted us to have been practicing them from the start. Because of this, by the time most of us had been there five years or so, we could toss out a perfectly good jump spinning kick in the middle of a match and make it stick. We had the speed, and we didn't have to think about it. Back to racing - I have a problem with the Esses at the Glen. GPL, NASCAR Heat, NR2002, doesn't matter, I suck at them. I can sometimes get a good exit, but not consistently. And this is with nobody else on the track. If I am approaching the Esses and traffic conditions force me to enter in a manner I am not used to, what am I going to do? I can hardly even make it when I am on the right line. Trying to concentrate on traffic and the track and figure out what to do in an unexpected situation is too much, I'm just boned in a situation like that. This is where I think thousands of repetitions would help. If I had gone through the Esses so many times that I could do it with my eyes shut, I could just worry about the surrounding traffic and leave the driving to my subconsciousness. I can't prove that that principle applies to racing because I haven't been at it long enough, but it certainly applies to everything else that I have ever tried so I believe it does apply to racing also. And there have been comments from racers in this NG that during a real race you don't time to think, you are pretty much relying on instinct. Instinct, subconsciousness, call it whatever you want, the less you have to consciously think about a physical task the less likely you are to screw it up, and the freer you are to concentrate on other things. My two cents again. Damn that was a long post. Sorry. ;o)

The problem is though that we are supposed to be simulating what the real drivers do, and they don't run a fraction of the laps many simmers do. That's why I mentioned MS and how many laps he does at a track before a race. I don't know how you'd make a karate simulator, but if a technique in real life took 1,000 repetitions to master, and in the sim there were people who practiced it 500,000 times, then we'd have the same situation as in auto sims. BTW, I thought you were a veteran sim racer. :-) David G Fisher "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:a9derq$27uik$[email hidden]...

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> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:4Uou8.39864$[email hidden]... > > You can't really learn anything with all those laps. All they are > doing is > > taking a sim and turning it into nothing but a hand/eye (and foot) > > coordination exercise and burning each movement into their sub > conscious. > > You should be able to close your eyes and do fast laps with that much > > practice. I've pissed some people off with similiar comments to that > in the > > past but it's simple logic really. > > > etc. > > That's an interesting reply because that touches on something I wanted > to add to this post. First, you guys know that I am pretty new at sim > racing so I don't really know what it takes to go fast and do it > consistently. Keep that in mind as you read what I have to say. I > practiced and later taught Karate for about a ten year period. The > Grand Master that I trained under was a relatively scientific minded > fellow, at least in comparison to his peers, and had studied a lot over > the years about different training methods, human physiology, etc. He > often talked about how the goal was to be able to execute perfect > techniques without any more mental effort than it takes to walk, and how > this was achieved through "muscle memory". Muscle memory meant > practicing a technique endlessly until you didn't have to think about it > anymore to do it. In my own studies since then I now tend to think that > what he was referring to was exactly what you said above, burning it > into the subconscious so that it does not require conscious attention to > execute a technique. And that's exactly why I think it IS important. > One Karate teacher from another school once said that he believes it > takes 1000 correct repetitions of a technique to master it. His > defintion of mastering it was essentially the same as my own teacher's > idea of being able to execute it perfectly without conscious thought. > This is the cornerstone of Asian martial arts philosophy (actually the > cornerstone of all Asian arts in general), and the reason why the Asian > martial arts have developed such a formidable reputation over the years. > It is also essentially the same training philosophy that top athletes in > many other physical disciplines have learned. And I think it applies to > racing too. Why? Because if you have to think about where you are on > the track, you aren't thinking about the cars around you. Performance > in any competition is improved when the physical skills are relegated to > the subconscious mind, leaving the conscious mind free to attend to > strategy and tactics. An example from the martial arts again - there > are jumping and spinning kicks that are usually not taught to beginners > because they are slow and difficult to perform. My instructor started > teaching us right away, because he wanted us to have been practicing > them from the start. Because of this, by the time most of us had been > there five years or so, we could toss out a perfectly good jump spinning > kick in the middle of a match and make it stick. We had the speed, and > we didn't have to think about it. Back to racing - I have a problem > with the Esses at the Glen. GPL, NASCAR Heat, NR2002, doesn't matter, I > suck at them. I can sometimes get a good exit, but not consistently. > And this is with nobody else on the track. If I am approaching the > Esses and traffic conditions force me to enter in a manner I am not used > to, what am I going to do? I can hardly even make it when I am on the > right line. Trying to concentrate on traffic and the track and figure > out what to do in an unexpected situation is too much, I'm just boned in > a situation like that. This is where I think thousands of repetitions > would help. If I had gone through the Esses so many times that I could > do it with my eyes shut, I could just worry about the surrounding > traffic and leave the driving to my subconsciousness. I can't prove > that that principle applies to racing because I haven't been at it long > enough, but it certainly applies to everything else that I have ever > tried so I believe it does apply to racing also. And there have been > comments from racers in this NG that during a real race you don't time > to think, you are pretty much relying on instinct. Instinct, > subconsciousness, call it whatever you want, the less you have to > consciously think about a physical task the less likely you are to screw > it up, and the freer you are to concentrate on other things. > > My two cents again. Damn that was a long post. Sorry. ;o) > >

> Ok, let's see the answers to this. I've heard and read aboutpeople(hotshoes) > running thousands of laps at a particular track. They(and others) pointto > that as the reason that they're so fast. My question is, what can youlearn in > 1000 laps that you can't learn in 100? You can learn how the track goesin > less than 20. I'm not talking about running a few laps, tweaking thesetup, > running some more to see how the changes affect your car. For someone who > can't change setups(like me) what else could I *possibly* learn that Ican't in > 100 laps? Does the advice of "drive more laps" really make sense? As a language teacher, I like to annoy my students by passing on broad and vacant learning principles. It's one of the liberties you gain as a teacher, I guess. One such nugget of wisdom is that 'practice does NOT make perfect'....permanent, maybe, but not perfect. If you unknowingly repeat a mistake again and again...you're only reinforcing the mistake. In order to improve, you first need to be aware that you are even making mistakes and then you need the proper tools/knowledge to know how to go about fixing them. Without that conscious reflection and feedback in the loop, mere repetition might well be doing more harm than good. So after a certain point, I'd question the advice to 'just drive more laps'. I guess the only thing I can say in favor of mere repetition after the point where you've learned a track well is that sometimes you just get lucky. When you're just running around a track again and again with no particular goal or strategy, you sometimes accidentally stumble upon something that makes you faster. Something you didn't even intend to do. If you have the ability to notice that discovery and can repeat it...that process of happy accidents might pay dividends bit by bit over time. But it seems an awfully inefficient way to go about getting faster, particularly when there are principles behind WHY certain things make you faster and slower. (Err...lecture over.... my students hate it when I sermonize, too :-)

my guess (somewhat shorter) : you wont drive much faster from 100 laps experience to 1000 laps, but you will be able to drive much much more consistent, driving fast *all* the time .. very few mistakes ... when you think you know the track, you always find some more things to learn, breaking point, approching the corner ... I had one sim I knew the tracks inside out, I can tell you, in the end you dont even concentrate any more, you just know exactly what to do, and I guess this is what you lack having not enough 'tracktime' no offence at all, but it takes quite some time, but don't forget a car setup makes the first difference ss wrote:

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> > Ok, let's see the answers to this. I've heard and read about > people(hotshoes) > > running thousands of laps at a particular track. They(and others) point > to > > that as the reason that they're so fast. My question is, what can you > learn in > > 1000 laps that you can't learn in 100? You can learn how the track goes > in > > less than 20. I'm not talking about running a few laps, tweaking the > setup, > > running some more to see how the changes affect your car. For someone who > > can't change setups(like me) what else could I *possibly* learn that I > can't in > > 100 laps? Does the advice of "drive more laps" really make sense? > > As a language teacher, I like to annoy my students by passing on broad and > vacant learning principles. It's one of the liberties you gain as a > teacher, I guess. One such nugget of wisdom is that 'practice does NOT make > perfect'....permanent, maybe, but not perfect. If you unknowingly repeat a > mistake again and again...you're only reinforcing the mistake. In order to > improve, you first need to be aware that you are even making mistakes and > then you need the proper tools/knowledge to know how to go about fixing > them. Without that conscious reflection and feedback in the loop, mere > repetition might well be doing more harm than good. So after a certain > point, I'd question the advice to 'just drive more laps'. > > I guess the only thing I can say in favor of mere repetition after the point > where you've learned a track well is that sometimes you just get lucky. > When you're just running around a track again and again with no particular > goal or strategy, you sometimes accidentally stumble upon something that > makes you faster. Something you didn't even intend to do. If you have the > ability to notice that discovery and can repeat it...that process of happy > accidents might pay dividends bit by bit over time. But it seems an awfully > inefficient way to go about getting faster, particularly when there are > principles behind WHY certain things make you faster and slower. > > (Err...lecture over.... my students hate it when I sermonize, too :-)

-- rgds, Tony _____________________________________________________ Tony Van Cauter Staff Consultant Applications SysAdmin/DBA Oracle Belgium Airport Business Center Vuurberg 80, 1831 Diegem +32-(0)2-719.12.11 _____________________________________________________ 32-(0)2-719.57.95 0497/59.66.44 [email hidden]

"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<a9derq$27uik$[email hidden]>...

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> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:4Uou8.39864$[email hidden]... > > You can't really learn anything with all those laps. All they are doing is > > taking a sim and turning it into nothing but a hand/eye (and foot) > > coordination exercise and burning each movement into their sub-conscious. > > You should be able to close your eyes and do fast laps with that much > > practice. I've pissed some people off with similiar comments to that > > in the past but it's simple logic really.

Isn't that the point though? You can always learn something (even if it is only reinforcement of good habits) by doing it right "one more time". > [T]he goal was to be able to execute perfect techniques without any more mental effort than it takes to walk... Muscle memory meant practicing a technique endlessly until you didn't have to think about it anymore to do it. Yes. This is a proven technique for mastering any physical activity. > And I think it [is useful to employ this technique in] racing too. Why? > Because if you have to think about where you are on > the track, you aren't thinking about the cars around you. Performance > in any competition is improved when the physical skills are relegated to > the subconscious mind, leaving the conscious mind free to attend to > strategy and tactics. I totally agree. You only have so much attention you can pay to the world around you. If you're thinking about driving, you can't think about racing. > I can't prove > that that principle applies to racing because I haven't been at it long > enough, but it certainly applies to everything else that I have ever > tried so I believe it does apply to racing also. Again, I agree. I'd be willing to say it has been proven, if only by intuition. And, once you learn the basic muscle movements, you can extrapolate a lot of information to new situations. If you spend 1000 laps at California, and then go to Michigan (or any other long oval for that matter) for the first time, you will have a BIG head start on somebody who has never raced either track. I also think it takes longer than might be expected to pick up a sim track because of lack of feedback from the sim environment. Also, the asymetrical setups changing even slightly from track to track tend to confuse folks a great deal. I don't think you can necessarily set an absolute number of reps where muscle memory has been engrained. But for a person new to a particular "motion", be it karate or simulated pedal-dancing, I'd say 1000 is a good figure to shoot for. DGF, Would you rather race against someone who has driven 1000 laps or 100? Here's something else: Tire wear makes a big difference on how a car will drive over time. 100 laps is just getting into a long green run at some shorter tracks. If someone spends 200 laps running 20 lap sprints, what will happen the first time they get into a 50 lap green flag run where signifigant tire wear and weight shift is a new concern? not pissed, Gerald

In article <LCsu8.35$[email hidden]>, "ss" <[email hidden]> writes: >But it seems an awfully >inefficient way to go about getting faster, particularly when there are >principles behind WHY certain things make you faster and slower. And that seems to be the problem. I've tried following what people have said - I keep crashing. There seems to be a problem with me doing exactly what they say, I guess. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions' blazing 2001 start of 0-12??? Currently at 0-11 as of April14th...stay tuned...one more to tie Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <4Uou8.39864$[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: >You can't really learn anything with all those laps. All they are doing is >taking a sim and turning it into nothing but a hand/eye (and foot) >coordination exercise and burning each movement into their sub conscious. >You should be able to close your eyes and do fast laps with that much >practice. I've pissed some people off with similiar comments to that in the >past but it's simple logic really. Then the fact that I can't match laptimes after the same number of laps(even MORE than some) doesn't make any sense. If I'm coordinating a 1:30 laptime, how do I get to the 1:20's that others are running? I don't agree with you on that simply because there ARE people who can't match fastlaps, even with 100's of laps in practice and races. If what you say was true, we'd ALL be able to match Huttu's times.

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>From reading your posts over time, I really wonder if you have your >controller set up correctly for whatever sim you're running. I know you were >frustrated with F2001 for that reason. I'm wondering with N2002, what >controller do you use, do you use left foot braking, and what exactly is >your linear/non-linear setting? Having the controller set up correctly, and >keeping the fps above at least 35 at all times are extremely important. >

TSW2mod, left-foot braking. ~37 fps. I'll have to double-check my settings. I'm at work now... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions' blazing 2001 start of 0-12??? Currently at 0-11 as of April14th...stay tuned...one more to tie Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Tony Van Cauter <[email hidden]> writes:

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>when you think you know the track, you always find some more things to learn, >breaking point, approching the corner ... I had one sim I knew the tracks >inside >out, I can tell you, in the end you dont even concentrate any more, you just >know exactly what to do, and I guess this is what you lack having not enough >'tracktime' >

On a track like Nurburgring or Rouen, I'll agree with you. But one like Silverstone, Kyalami, Zandvoort - I've run several hundred laps there. I think I know the track itself well enough. I could run laps there all day within my 'comfort area'. When I try something to get faster, that's when I crash. I ran some practice laps at Mosport last week for a league race. I ran off a string of laps within a second of each other with no problem. Another driver got on the track and I tried to follow her around - I kept falling off the track, using her same line. She was about 2 seconds faster per lap, and I couldn't get close. >no offence at all, but it takes quite some time, but don't forget a car setup >makes the first difference As I said earlier in this thread(and others have said) it isn't the setup. Maybe for the last few tenths, but not for basic speed. Some people can beat the benchmark laps using the default setups. There's something I'm doing differently(or NOT doing) that's holding me back. And it's not discernable to me what that is... It may be my perception of the track on a 2D screen, it may be my controller, it may be something different altogether. I don't know. And it can't just 'take quite some time'. There are people who get GPL for the first time, and go 'negative' within the first month. When did it come out - 1998? I've had it for nearly 4 YEARS... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions' blazing 2001 start of 0-12??? Currently at 0-11 as of April14th...stay tuned...one more to tie Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

What does he mean, you cant really learn anything ... surely pissed off some guys with that statement, does he want to redefine the word 'learning' ? ... and exercise is not learning .. interesting EldredP wrote:

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> In article <4Uou8.39864$[email hidden]>, "David G > Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: > > >You can't really learn anything with all those laps. All they are doing is > >taking a sim and turning it into nothing but a hand/eye (and foot) > >coordination exercise and burning each movement into their sub conscious. > >You should be able to close your eyes and do fast laps with that much > >practice. I've pissed some people off with similiar comments to that in the > >past but it's simple logic really. > > Then the fact that I can't match laptimes after the same number of laps(even > MORE than some) doesn't make any sense. If I'm coordinating a 1:30 laptime, > how do I get to the 1:20's that others are running? I don't agree with you on > that simply because there ARE people who can't match fastlaps, even with 100's > of laps in practice and races. If what you say was true, we'd ALL be able to > match Huttu's times. > > >From reading your posts over time, I really wonder if you have your > >controller set up correctly for whatever sim you're running. I know you were > >frustrated with F2001 for that reason. I'm wondering with N2002, what > >controller do you use, do you use left foot braking, and what exactly is > >your linear/non-linear setting? Having the controller set up correctly, and > >keeping the fps above at least 35 at all times are extremely important. > > > > TSW2mod, left-foot braking. ~37 fps. I'll have to double-check my settings. > I'm at work now... > > Eldred > > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions' blazing 2001 start of 0-12??? > Currently at 0-11 as of April14th...stay tuned...one more to tie > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

-- rgds, Tony _____________________________________________________ Tony Van Cauter Staff Consultant Applications SysAdmin/DBA Oracle Belgium Airport Business Center Vuurberg 80, 1831 Diegem +32-(0)2-719.12.11 _____________________________________________________ 32-(0)2-719.57.95 0497/59.66.44 [email hidden]

What you are saying is that you are slower than somebody else, OK, so what .. that doesnt mean you cant improve, its like the other guy said, running 1000 laps will not make you very fast, it CAN make you very fast .. surely somebody with only ten laps experience NO WAY can beat somebody with 1000 laps experience, except for a very lucky day maybe if you cant figure out why somebody is so much faster than you, try another controller, another pc, another chair .. anything .. its a combination, maybe you are sitting in a room with lots of other noises to distract .. I dont know .. or maybe you just arent that fast, and thats nothing to be ashamed about, I tend to always end up last on network games, so what .. its for fun ... and setup : aaaaargh, I hate this part, depends on games, take a real pro, give him a keyboard controller and basic setup take a newbie, and give him a steering wheel and the nearly perfect setup some games will allow that newb to beat a pro .. if your speed diff is so high, there is no way .. but like I said, it depends on the game EldredP wrote:

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> In article <[email hidden]>, Tony Van Cauter > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >when you think you know the track, you always find some more things to learn, > >breaking point, approching the corner ... I had one sim I knew the tracks > >inside > >out, I can tell you, in the end you dont even concentrate any more, you just > >know exactly what to do, and I guess this is what you lack having not enough > >'tracktime' > > > On a track like Nurburgring or Rouen, I'll agree with you. But one like > Silverstone, Kyalami, Zandvoort - I've run several hundred laps there. I think > I know the track itself well enough. I could run laps there all day within my > 'comfort area'. When I try something to get faster, that's when I crash. I > ran some practice laps at Mosport last week for a league race. I ran off a > string of laps within a second of each other with no problem. Another driver > got on the track and I tried to follow her around - I kept falling off the > track, using her same line. She was about 2 seconds faster per lap, and I > couldn't get close. > > >no offence at all, but it takes quite some time, but don't forget a car setup > >makes the first difference > > As I said earlier in this thread(and others have said) it isn't the setup. > Maybe for the last few tenths, but not for basic speed. Some people can beat > the benchmark laps using the default setups. There's something I'm doing > differently(or NOT doing) that's holding me back. And it's not discernable to > me what that is... It may be my perception of the track on a 2D screen, it may > be my controller, it may be something different altogether. I don't know. > And it can't just 'take quite some time'. There are people who get GPL for the > first time, and go 'negative' within the first month. When did it come out - > 1998? I've had it for nearly 4 YEARS... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions' blazing 2001 start of 0-12??? > Currently at 0-11 as of April14th...stay tuned...one more to tie > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

-- rgds, Tony _____________________________________________________ Tony Van Cauter Staff Consultant Applications SysAdmin/DBA Oracle Belgium Airport Business Center Vuurberg 80, 1831 Diegem +32-(0)2-719.12.11 _____________________________________________________ 32-(0)2-719.57.95 0497/59.66.44 [email hidden]

"Tony Van Cauter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > if you cant figure out why somebody is so much faster than you, tryanother > controller, another pc, another chair .. anything .. Or try a different game altogether, Eldred. Whenever I have been plateaued out at any form of physical training, there are only two ways that I know to get through it - either quit for a while and come back a week or a month later to see if you have gotten over whatever is blocking you, or go do something that is different but related - "cross training". The former method is most applicable if you have reached a sufficient frustration level to where you yourself are preventing your own progress. The latter is more applicable when there is a skill or a physical quality that you are simply unable to develop using your current regimen, but that is necessary for your improvement. While your recent posts have made it sound like the former applies to you, I'm going to guess that it's actually the latter. After all, something had to cause that frustration. ;o) For example, I think I remember you making a comment a few weeks ago about not being able to slide around like other people do. I think that the controlled four wheel drift is what separates an average lap from a really fast lap. It's what allows you to go around corners fast without sacrificing exit speed or vice versa. I still don't have it down, but when I can pull it off the effect on my lap times has been pretty dramatic. One thing I tried that really helped a lot is I recently played Rallisport Challenge on the Xbox. That game allows you to easily start a drift, catch it, control it, and power out of it. I would assume most other rally games do too, like Rally Trophy for example. After spending about 4 hours playing Rallisport Challenge multiplayer with some friends, I fired up GPL again and it felt totally different. I started anticipating corners better and setting up the drift as I approached them. Zandvoort is especially good for practicing this. I also, due to learning to anticipate things in Rallisport, started to see my way through the whole corner on a more consistent basis. Since doing that I have dropped my GPL Rank from around 180 to 110 or so. Still crappy numbers I know, but the point is that it got me over the hump on several tracks that I was having difficulty with. And that's really the point of my example, not that you necessarily need to go play Rally Trophy specifically, but that you probably need to try something distinctly different from GPL to get you over the hump. Cross training. Just a thought.

"EldredP" (snip) Another driver > got on the track and I tried to follow her around - I kept falling off the > track, using her same line. She was about 2 seconds faster per lap, and I > couldn't get close. I feel your pain Eldred, That is a guarenteed way for me to spin. I can follow another faster driver, and make a few turns, trying to match their lines and braking and acceleration points...but I can say with complete certainty, that I will shortly be swapping ends and the back part of the car will be in front... EVERYTIME. > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions' blazing 2001 start of0-12??? > Currently at 0-11 as of April14th...stay tuned...one more to tie > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <4Uou8.39864$[email hidden]>, "David G > Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: >> >From reading your posts over time, I really wonder if you have your > >controller set up correctly for whatever sim you're running. I know youwere > >frustrated with F2001 for that reason. I'm wondering with N2002, what > >controller do you use, do you use left foot braking, and what exactly is > >your linear/non-linear setting? Having the controller set up correctly,and > >keeping the fps above at least 35 at all times are extremely important. > > > > TSW2mod, left-foot braking. ~37 fps. I'll have to double-check mysettings. > I'm at work now... That you don't know the linear/non linear setting without checking leads me to believe that's probably where your problems in N2002 are. If it's not set right through experimentation, then the cars are basically going to handle like crap. Tony R. was having handling problems which he described in another thread recently and it ended up his linear/non linear setting was wrong. It really is critical to get that right or all the practice and thought you've obviously put into this issue is wasted. With my Ferrari FF wheel, I run 100% linear. Others find that too high, and by just turning it down to around 96%, their cars feel better. I also think that ff would probably be a big help to you. As far as learning a track, I'll just describe what I did with Pocono this past week. I'd only run some laps there once before a few weeks ago with you and that was it until you announced it would be the the RASCAR race we had this past weekend. In about 100 laps spread over three days I was able to do fairly consistent 55's in testing. I looked at some replays of my best laps and found that in order to do them, I needed to not drop below 135mph in T1, 145 in T2, and 125 in T3. A really good lap I'd raise that minimum speed another 5mph. The other thing I found was that I liked to brake a little later and a bit deeper into the tunrs, and stay a just a bit wide right of the race line on turn entry. I also had to find out how the car handled as the tires wore and got really hot. That's about it really other than running with the AI to get used to traffic on that track and being forced into different lines. I've done the same for each RASCAR race so far. David G Fisher

"Gerald Moore" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:<a9derq$27uik$[email hidden]>... > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:4Uou8.39864$[email hidden]... > > > You can't really learn anything with all those laps. All they aredoing is > > > taking a sim and turning it into nothing but a hand/eye (and foot) > > > coordination exercise and burning each movement into theirsub-conscious. > > > You should be able to close your eyes and do fast laps with that much > > > practice. I've pissed some people off with similiar comments to that > > > in the past but it's simple logic really. > DGF, Would you rather race against someone who has driven 1000 laps or > 100? I like what's going on in the RASCAR races actually. Some of us are new to NASCAR sim racing. N2002 is such a good sim that it finally pulled some of us in. I think most of us who have been in the races are probably practicing about the same amount before each race since we don't even know what the track will be until around mid week when the track is announced. Real drivers in auto racing have limited practice time, and it seems more realistic to have these races knowing most of us are limited too. Some of the guys probably have done a lot more laps on the NASCAR tracks only because they may have run N3/N4, and not because they do huge amounts of practicing. Since the physics have changed for N2002 and we are using a fixed setup, they still have to relearn the game and car handling and lose a lot of whatever advantage they might of had. If someone ends up joining these RASCAR races who is one of the sim racers who runs tons of laps, I'm not going to be annoyed at all or complain. It won't bother me a bit. People can certainly enjoy a sim any way they like. If they win the race then that's perfectly fine too. I can't honestly say though that I will be impressed at all by their performance, just like I wouldn't be impressed by a real life driver who was who was getting a lot more practice laps than his competitors at a track and then winning the races. David G Fisher

<snip> > difficulty with. And that's really the point of my example, not that > you necessarily need to go play Rally Trophy specifically, but that you > probably need to try something distinctly different from GPL to get you > over the hump. Cross training. Just a thought. I can attest to this method working. My F12001 rank was stuck in the +20s and I became frustrated so I decided to get back into GPL and I played it for about a month or so. I then decided to come back to F12001 and lo and behold my rank tumbled dramatically. I don't think I was doing anything different but all I can guess is that the drifting and throttle control necessary for GPL was translated to F12001. Interresting topic anyway, Eldred. -- Damien Smith [email hidden] ICQ: 77028579 F12001 rank: -5.658 GPL rank: um, yes.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >But it seems an awfully > >inefficient way to go about getting faster, particularly when there are > >principles behind WHY certain things make you faster and slower. > And that seems to be the problem. I've tried following what people havesaid - > I keep crashing. There seems to be a problem with me doing exactly whatthey > say, I guess. Maybe you go for to big improvements in to small steps. You tried to follow a person 2 seconds a lap quicker, and of course that is bound to go wrong. I presume you use Replay Analyzer to compare your own laps to faster laps? Don't compare your times to Huttu or other Aliens, compare to someone just slightly faster than yourself, and see where they gain time from you and the try and copy that. Is it a different line, earlier on the gas, later on the brakes, another gear maybe? Try and copy that. And to your original question on 100s vs. 1000s of laps. First of all we are all different. I need a lot of laps to get quick, and then even more to become consistent and stable. and then I need to practice racing to a lot, to come close to what I do alone, with other cars on track to. That's just how I do it. To become quick most people need the 100s of laps, and from there the gain in lap times become less and less, but to gain the 1/1000s of seconds the alien does, you need a lot more laps. Time wise, you gain a lot more form the first numbers of laps, but to keep gaining more, you need more and more laps. You I guess, as me, are not a that stage yet, but I think we still benefit from laps and laps of practice. You say that you can run in your comfort zone for laps, but when you try and push you crash. That is not necessarily a bad thing. You need to crash sometimes, if you don't you are not pushing hard enough. You need to explore your limits. You need to experiment with different lines, braking points etc. I don't know you well enough to know if you do this, but you also need to try different cars and not focus to long on each track at at time, when you seem stuck. But sometimes you also need to stay focused one the one track you want to improve on, for enough time and laps at a time. And I don't think it helps you much that you switch a lot around from different simulators either. I know my GPL gets messed up pretty bad, if I do to much Nasser or Rallying in between. Joakim

maybe dont follow other drivers and try to be as fast as them, doesnt work for me cause I have to concentrate on one thing more then, which is really too much, other drivers probably have other ways of driving Dave Henrie wrote:

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> "EldredP" > (snip) > Another driver > > got on the track and I tried to follow her around - I kept falling off the > > track, using her same line. She was about 2 seconds faster per lap, and I > > couldn't get close. > I feel your pain Eldred, > That is a guarenteed way for me to spin. I can follow another faster > driver, and make a few turns, trying to match their lines and braking and > acceleration points...but I can say with complete certainty, that I will > shortly be swapping ends and the back part of the car will be in front... > EVERYTIME. > > > Eldred > > -- > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > GPLRank - under construction... > > > > Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions' blazing 2001 start of > 0-12??? > > Currently at 0-11 as of April14th...stay tuned...one more to tie > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

-- rgds, Tony _____________________________________________________ Tony Van Cauter Staff Consultant Applications SysAdmin/DBA Oracle Belgium Airport Business Center Vuurberg 80, 1831 Diegem +32-(0)2-719.12.11 _____________________________________________________ 32-(0)2-719.57.95 0497/59.66.44 [email hidden]

David G Fisher wrote: > I can't honestly say though that I will be > impressed at all by their performance, just like I wouldn't be impressed by > a real life driver who was who was getting a lot more practice laps than his > competitors at a track and then winning the races. That's right. Which is why MS is a lot less impressive than JPM. :-P -- Fester Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8) -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02

"Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > David G Fisher wrote: > > > I can't honestly say though that I will be > > impressed at all by their performance, just like I wouldn't be impressedby > > a real life driver who was who was getting a lot more practice laps thanhis > > competitors at a track and then winning the races. > > > That's right. Which is why MS is a lot less impressive than JPM. :-P ............who's a lot less impressive than Raikkonen, Massa, and Button. :-) David G Fisher

In article <a9h0b1$337kn$[email hidden]>, "Joakim Lauridsen" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Maybe you go for to big improvements in to small steps. You tried to follow >a person 2 seconds a lap quicker, and of course that is bound to go wrong. I >presume you use Replay Analyzer to compare your own laps to faster laps? >Don't compare your times to Huttu or other Aliens, compare to someone just >slightly faster than yourself, and see where they gain time from you and the >try and copy that. Is it a different line, earlier on the gas, later on the >brakes, another gear maybe? Try and copy that.

I've discovered that a lot of them brake much later than I do. At the point where the nose of my car dips under braking, they're still at full throttle. Gears are usually 'staggered' by the same amount throughout the graph(except for some turns where I drop one gear lower). No, I probably didn't explain that clearly enough. On most of the graphs I compare, I'm just *that* much lower on top speed, etc - through the whole lap. Earlier on the gas? I can't do that if I want to stay on the track...

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>I don't know you well >enough to know if you do this, but you also need to try different cars and >not focus to long on each track at at time, when you seem stuck. But >sometimes you also need to stay focused one the one track you want to >improve on, for enough time and laps at a time. And I don't think it helps >you much that you switch a lot around from different simulators either. I >know my GPL gets messed up pretty bad, if I do to much Nasser or Rallying in >between.

I'm in 2 different leagues, and a 'racing club'(no stats kept). I drive the Cooper exclusively in one league, and a Lotus/Eagle combo in the other. In the club, I've driven the Lotus, Eagle, Ferrari, and Brab. I can't STAND the BRM and Honda. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions' blazing 2001 start of 0-12??? Currently at 0-11 as of April14th...stay tuned...one more to tie Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <wcOu8.69225$%[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: >With my Ferrari FF wheel, I run 100% linear. Others find that too high, and >by just turning it down to around 96%, their cars feel better. I also think >that ff would probably be a big help to you. >I checked it, and it was set at 20%. I tried about 5 laps with it set to 70%. The car felt like it would be a LOT easier to get into a 'tankslapper'. I didn't have too many problems in those 5 laps, but I was all alone on the track, and I was only running 57 second laps... :(

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>As far as learning a track, I'll just describe what I did with Pocono this >past week. I'd only run some laps there once before a few weeks ago with you >and that was it until you announced it would be the the RASCAR race we had >this past weekend. In about 100 laps spread over three days I was able to do >fairly consistent 55's in testing. I looked at some replays of my best laps >and found that in order to do them, I needed to not drop below 135mph in T1, >145 in T2, and 125 in T3. A really good lap I'd raise that minimum speed >another 5mph. The other thing I found was that I liked to brake a little >later and a bit deeper into the tunrs, and stay a just a bit wide right of >the race line on turn entry. I also had to find out how the car handled as >the tires wore and got really hot. That's about it really other than running >with the AI to get used to traffic on that track and being forced into >different lines. I've done the same for each RASCAR race so far.

What do you have the AI% set to? Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions' blazing 2001 start of 0-12??? Currently at 0-11 as of April14th...stay tuned...one more to tie Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <wcOu8.69225$%[email hidden]>, "David G > Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: > > >With my Ferrari FF wheel, I run 100% linear. Others find that too high,and > >by just turning it down to around 96%, their cars feel better. I alsothink > >that ff would probably be a big help to you. > > > I checked it, and it was set at 20%. I tried about 5 laps with it set to70%. > The car felt like it would be a LOT easier to get into a 'tankslapper'. I > didn't have too many problems in those 5 laps, but I was all alone on the > track, and I was only running 57 second laps... :( At 20% with my wheel, the car is impossible to hold in a straight line at a track like Daytona. A mess really. I'd keep experimenting with that setting until you find just the right one. > >As far as learning a track, I'll just describe what I did with Poconothis > >past week. I'd only run some laps there once before a few weeks ago withyou > >and that was it until you announced it would be the the RASCAR race wehad > >this past weekend. In about 100 laps spread over three days I was able todo > >fairly consistent 55's in testing. I looked at some replays of my bestlaps > >and found that in order to do them, I needed to not drop below 135mph inT1, > >145 in T2, and 125 in T3. A really good lap I'd raise that minimum speed > >another 5mph. The other thing I found was that I liked to brake a little > >later and a bit deeper into the tunrs, and stay a just a bit wide rightof > >the race line on turn entry. I also had to find out how the car handledas > >the tires wore and got really hot. That's about it really other thanrunning > >with the AI to get used to traffic on that track and being forced into > >different lines. I've done the same for each RASCAR race so far. > > What do you have the AI% set to? It depends on the track, but with Pocono I had to put it at 105% because they were way too slow in the corners at any other setting. With the other tracks we've done, I think I've usually had it at 95% to 100%. David G Fisher

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:SM%u8.57217$[email hidden]... > > I checked it, and it was set at 20%. I tried about 5 laps with it setto > 70%. > > The car felt like it would be a LOT easier to get into a 'tankslapper'.I > > didn't have too many problems in those 5 laps, but I was all alone onthe > > track, and I was only running 57 second laps... :( > > At 20% with my wheel, the car is impossible to hold in a straight line ata > track like Daytona. A mess really. I'd keep experimenting with thatsetting > until you find just the right one. I should of suggested that it may be a good idea to experiment with that linear/non linear slider at a track like Daytona. Put the ideal line on with the "r" key, and do some laps at different settings while trying to hold that line as best as possible. Check the replay and see which setting you were best at. Dave

Hi Eldred, the no. of laps someone needs depends on his talent (the ability to instinctively understand what the car does and what he has to do to make it do what he wants it to do), intelligence (the ability to learn - to recognize what he's doing wrong or where he can improve and how), his physical disposition (fast reactions, good coordination etc.), and... who he wants to compete against and what he wants to achieve. Most important is, though, that it's fun. Achim

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>> I checked it, and it was set at 20%. I tried about 5 laps with it set to >70%. >> The car felt like it would be a LOT easier to get into a 'tankslapper'. I >> didn't have too many problems in those 5 laps, but I was all alone on the >> track, and I was only running 57 second laps... :( > >At 20% with my wheel, the car is impossible to hold in a straight line at a >track like Daytona. A mess really. I'd keep experimenting with that setting >until you find just the right one.

Mine seems to be just the opposite. Something is wrong here...I'll keep trying. >> What do you have the AI% set to? > >It depends on the track, but with Pocono I had to put it at 105% because >they were way too slow in the corners at any other setting. With the other >tracks we've done, I think I've usually had it at 95% to 100%. 95%?!? Man, I'm still getting lapped just at *85%*... I can't run ANY track at 90% or higher, and expect to stay with the pack. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Okay, so the Detroit Tigers finally won a game. But is 1-11 *really* something to get excited over...? Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"ss" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<LCsu8.35$[email hidden]>...

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> As a language teacher, I like to annoy my students by passing on broad and > vacant learning principles. It's one of the liberties you gain as a > teacher, I guess. One such nugget of wisdom is that 'practice does NOT make > perfect'....permanent, maybe, but not perfect. If you unknowingly repeat a > mistake again and again...you're only reinforcing the mistake. In order to > improve, you first need to be aware that you are even making mistakes and > then you need the proper tools/knowledge to know how to go about fixing > them. Without that conscious reflection and feedback in the loop, mere > repetition might well be doing more harm than good. So after a certain > point, I'd question the advice to 'just drive more laps'.

A dude's father I used to know said "practice makes perfect, but shitty practice makes perfect shit". Having a structured plan to reach a goal is key. A replay analyzer is a good tool for figuring out where you are losing time relative to another car or your own car on a slow vs. a fast lap. Here's hoping tje GPLRA folks make one for NR2002 soon.

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> I guess the only thing I can say in favor of mere repetition after the point > where you've learned a track well is that sometimes you just get lucky. > When you're just running around a track again and again with no particular > goal or strategy, you sometimes accidentally stumble upon something that > makes you faster. Something you didn't even intend to do. If you have the > ability to notice that discovery and can repeat it...that process of happy > accidents might pay dividends bit by bit over time. But it seems an awfully > inefficient way to go about getting faster, particularly when there are > principles behind WHY certain things make you faster and slower.

I can't imagine that driving around without a goal or strategy would be very much fun. I'm either racing, or trying to get ready for a race. Besides, life is too busy (for me anyway) to run around just killing time. G

[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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> I've discovered that a lot of them brake much later than I do. At the point > where the nose of my car dips under braking, they're still at full throttle. > Gears are usually 'staggered' by the same amount throughout the graph(except > for some turns where I drop one gear lower). No, I probably didn't explain > that clearly enough. On most of the graphs I compare, I'm just *that* much > lower on top speed, etc - through the whole lap. Earlier on the gas? I > can't do that if I want to stay on the track... > Eldred

I probably dont have to tell you this, but forget about trying to out-brake someone to make big gains. You only brake for a small percentage of total lap time at most tracks, so there is much more opportunity for improvement elsewhere. Most people slow down too much in the turns, for various reasons. Try not to think about braking while you are in the braking zone. Think more about being at the right speed at turn in and being on your preferred line. If you're thinking about braking in the braking zone, it's probably too late, and you aren't able to concentrate fully on what's really important: corner entry speed and line. This is one area where muscle memory will pay off, knowing subconsciously how much brake pedal movement is needed to slow efficiently. Having a good controller is essential, as is making sure your body and the controller remain in exactly the same relative position at all times. Most people (myself included) have a hard time picking up speed cues from a 2D surface. The other benefit of getting a lot of seat time is after a while you can start to differentiate smaller and smaller variations in speed. It really is hard though. A 5mph difference at 50mph (what we are most familiar with in the real world) is 10%, but a 5mph difference at 165mph is only 3%. Subtract binocular and peripheral vision and it makes it even harder. Again it is essential that you sit in relatively the same position every time to make this easier for your eyes and brain to digest. I suspect that the people who are able to get up to speed faster are just better are perceiving speed cues from a 2D visual... for whatever reason, practice, natural "ability", whatever. HTH, Gerald

[email hidden] (Gerald Moore) writes:

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> [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > > > I've discovered that a lot of them brake much later than I do. At the point > > where the nose of my car dips under braking, they're still at full throttle. > > Gears are usually 'staggered' by the same amount throughout the graph(except > > for some turns where I drop one gear lower). No, I probably didn't explain > > that clearly enough. On most of the graphs I compare, I'm just *that* much > > lower on top speed, etc - through the whole lap. Earlier on the gas? I > > can't do that if I want to stay on the track... > > Eldred > > I probably dont have to tell you this, but forget about trying to > out-brake someone to make big gains. You only brake for a small > percentage of total lap time at most tracks, so there is much more > opportunity for improvement elsewhere. Most people slow down too > much in the turns, for various reasons. > > Try not to think about braking while you are in the braking zone. > Think more about being at the right speed at turn in and being on your > preferred line. If you're thinking about braking in the braking zone, > it's probably too late, and you aren't able to concentrate fully on > what's really important: corner entry speed and line. > > This is one area where muscle memory will pay off, knowing > subconsciously how much brake pedal movement is needed to slow > efficiently. Having a good controller is essential, as is making sure > your body and the controller remain in exactly the same relative > position at all times. > > Most people (myself included) have a hard time picking up speed cues > from a 2D surface. The other benefit of getting a lot of seat time is > after a while you can start to differentiate smaller and smaller > variations in speed. It really is hard though. A 5mph difference at > 50mph (what we are most familiar with in the real world) is 10%, but a > 5mph difference at 165mph is only 3%. Subtract binocular and > peripheral vision and it makes it even harder. > > Again it is essential that you sit in relatively the same position > every time to make this easier for your eyes and brain to digest. > > I suspect that the people who are able to get up to speed faster are > just better are perceiving speed cues from a 2D visual... for whatever > reason, practice, natural "ability", whatever.

Great tips. Another thing I have noticed, specially during GPL practice is to get into the zone, zen like. Sometimes, but never when i really counts :) I just forget everything around and get completely immersed in the game, and then laptimes start to drop, and the eyes starts to hurt from lack of blinking (seriously). The problem is that I find it difficult to get into it on command, it just happens. If I take a break, I might be completely off for the next session. -- Olav K. Malmin remove .spam when replying

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Gerald Moore) writes: >I probably dont have to tell you this, but forget about trying to >out-brake someone to make big gains. You only brake for a small >percentage of total lap time at most tracks, so there is much more >opportunity for improvement elsewhere. Most people slow down too >much in the turns, for various reasons. >Yeah, Maxx said the same thing. Hard to change, though.

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>Try not to think about braking while you are in the braking zone. >Think more about being at the right speed at turn in and being on your >preferred line. If you're thinking about braking in the braking zone, >it's probably too late, and you aren't able to concentrate fully on >what's really important: corner entry speed and line. > >This is one area where muscle memory will pay off, knowing >subconsciously how much brake pedal movement is needed to slow >efficiently. Having a good controller is essential, as is making sure >your body and the controller remain in exactly the same relative >position at all times. > >Most people (myself included) have a hard time picking up speed cues >from a 2D surface. The other benefit of getting a lot of seat time is >after a while you can start to differentiate smaller and smaller >variations in speed. It really is hard though. A 5mph difference at >50mph (what we are most familiar with in the real world) is 10%, but a >5mph difference at 165mph is only 3%. Subtract binocular and >peripheral vision and it makes it even harder.

I have REAL problems judging speeds at slower um, speeds. Boy, THAT was redundant<g>. Things like the leadup to the hairpins at Rouen and Mosport. Especially at Rouen. A typical scenario is this: I hit the brakes. It looks like I'm going too slow so I ease off the brakes, or in some cases hit the gas again. Now, I realize that I'm going too fast, and have to jam on the brakes. After several laps of this, I'm now gun-shy and just coast up to where I *think* I should nail the brakes. Not conducive for quick laptimes, I admit. It's tougher at Rouen because I have to turn sharply while braking, and that causes the car to get unstable. So, I can't maintain the same brake pressure consistently. It's a little easier(but not much) at Snetterton67. Because the braking zone is straight, trial and error proceeds quicker. > >Again it is essential that you sit in relatively the same position >every time to make this easier for your eyes and brain to digest. Not a problem. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Okay, so the Detroit Tigers finally won a game. But is 1-11 *really* something to get excited over...? Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Gerald Moore) writes: >Having a structured plan to reach a goal is key. > >A replay analyzer is a good tool for figuring out where you are losing >time relative to another car or your own car on a slow vs. a fast lap. EVERYWHERE...<g>

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>> I guess the only thing I can say in favor of mere repetition after the >point >> where you've learned a track well is that sometimes you just get lucky. >> When you're just running around a track again and again with no particular >> goal or strategy, you sometimes accidentally stumble upon something that >> makes you faster. Something you didn't even intend to do. If you have the >> ability to notice that discovery and can repeat it...that process of happy >> accidents might pay dividends bit by bit over time. But it seems an >awfully >> inefficient way to go about getting faster, particularly when there are >> principles behind WHY certain things make you faster and slower. > >I can't imagine that driving around without a goal or strategy would >be very much fun. I'm either racing, or trying to get ready for a >race. Besides, life is too busy (for me anyway) to run around just >killing time.

The GOAL is to get faster. The process is what's the tough part... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Okay, so the Detroit Tigers finally won a game. But is 1-11 *really* something to get excited over...? Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EVERYWHERE...<g> The GOAL is to get faster. The process is what's the tough part... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Okay, so the Detroit Tigers finally won a game. But is 1-11 *really* something to get e***d over...? Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

There's lots of good advice in this thread but there can easily come a point where you can overthink your drivng technique. Ever notice how some kid who could give a sh*t about what it is he's doing can sit down at a racing game/sim and blow away someone who's a "serious" simmer? He isn't sitting there thinking about where his braking points and weight transfer, etc. He just drives. MS doesn't think about technique while he's driving either, he just does it. This isn't rocket science after all. The engineering in F1 may be though, :-) but not the driving. This overthinking comes from age I guess. It HAS to be complex. An older simmer also doesn't want to be thought of as playing a kids game by others so he insists to himself and his wife/girlfriend/friends that it's more complex than it really is. Anyway, I still think most of your problems in N2002 are with controller setup. David G Fisher "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>,[email hidden]

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> (Gerald Moore) writes: > > >I probably dont have to tell you this, but forget about trying to > >out-brake someone to make big gains. You only brake for a small > >percentage of total lap time at most tracks, so there is much more > >opportunity for improvement elsewhere. Most people slow down too > >much in the turns, for various reasons. > > > Yeah, Maxx said the same thing. Hard to change, though. > > >Try not to think about braking while you are in the braking zone. > >Think more about being at the right speed at turn in and being on your > >preferred line. If you're thinking about braking in the braking zone, > >it's probably too late, and you aren't able to concentrate fully on > >what's really important: corner entry speed and line. > > > >This is one area where muscle memory will pay off, knowing > >subconsciously how much brake pedal movement is needed to slow > >efficiently. Having a good controller is essential, as is making sure > >your body and the controller remain in exactly the same relative > >position at all times. > > > >Most people (myself included) have a hard time picking up speed cues > >from a 2D surface. The other benefit of getting a lot of seat time is > >after a while you can start to differentiate smaller and smaller > >variations in speed. It really is hard though. A 5mph difference at > >50mph (what we are most familiar with in the real world) is 10%, but a > >5mph difference at 165mph is only 3%. Subtract binocular and > >peripheral vision and it makes it even harder. > > I have REAL problems judging speeds at slower um, speeds. Boy, THAT was > redundant<g>. Things like the leadup to the hairpins at Rouen and

Mosport. > Especially at Rouen. A typical scenario is this: I hit the brakes. Itlooks > like I'm going too slow so I ease off the brakes, or in some cases hit thegas > again. Now, I realize that I'm going too fast, and have to jam on thebrakes. > After several laps of this, I'm now gun-shy and just coast up to where I > *think* I should nail the brakes. Not conducive for quick laptimes, Iadmit. > It's tougher at Rouen because I have to turn sharply while braking, andthat > causes the car to get unstable. So, I can't maintain the same brakepressure > consistently. It's a little easier(but not much) at Snetterton67.Because the

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> braking zone is straight, trial and error proceeds quicker. > > > >Again it is essential that you sit in relatively the same position > >every time to make this easier for your eyes and brain to digest. > > Not a problem. > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Okay, so the Detroit Tigers finally won a game. But is 1-11 *really*

something > to get excited over...? > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. >

"Gerald Moore" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote in messagenews:<[email hidden]>... > > I probably dont have to tell you this, but forget about trying to > out-brake someone to make big gains. You only brake for a small > percentage of total lap time at most tracks, so there is much more > opportunity for improvement elsewhere. True in principle, but not true in every case. That is, I agree that there is theoretically less time to be gained by working on braking, but if someone has a specific problem getting their braking down there can often be lots of time to gain. You really have to use a replay analyzer to figure out whether it's worth working on braking or not. I know working on braking points has helped me a whole lot at some tracks, simply because I didn't trust the car or my technique enough to brake as late as I could. Also, when someone is braking too early it is often a symptom of some other problem, like a difficulty in hitting the turn-in properly (that has been my typical problem). So I don't think one can ignore the importance of braking until one has first determined through telemetry or replay analysis that one is at least close to the right braking point. I'm speaking not only from personal experience, but also from examples in the Skip Barber book "Going Faster!". After spending a great deal of time explaining how braking is the last thing you have to work on, in the chapter on using telemetry the author uses examples of a guy whose only real problem was that he was braking too soon and too lightly due to bad heel and toe technique. The driver was losing quite a bit of time because of it.

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%Ojv8.63314$%[email hidden]... > There's lots of good advice in this thread but there can easily come apoint > where you can overthink your drivng technique. Ever notice how somekid who > could give a sh*t about what it is he's doing can sit down at a racing > game/sim and blow away someone who's a "serious" simmer? He isn'tsitting > there thinking about where his braking points and weight transfer,etc. He > just drives. MS doesn't think about technique while he's drivingeither, he > just does it. This isn't rocket science after all. The engineering inF1 may > be though, :-) but not the driving. It goes together really. Talented young punks may come out fast and blow everybody away initially, but if they never slow down long enough to learn something they never progress any farther. Analysis is necessary in order to figure out how to do things, synthesis is necessary in order to ever actually use that knowledge. Or, to put it a little less cryptically, you need to learn what is necessary to improve and then you need to forget what you learned and just do it.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > It's tougher at Rouen because I have to turn sharply while braking, andthat > causes the car to get unstable. So, I can't maintain the same brakepressure > consistently. It's a little easier(but not much) at Snetterton67.Because the > braking zone is straight, trial and error proceeds quicker. You don't have to take the corner that way,. I think you make it harder on yourself. I know this is just one, or rather two corners, and you cannot aply this at all of them. I don�t brake while turning ( before the haipin at Rouen that is). I used to do that, but know I'm actually on the gas through the bend before instead, and that setles the car down. Brake a little before the bend, turn in early get on the gas to settle the car down and then brake hard when you go straigt again. Of course on the gas doesn't mean full throtle. ;-) This way, the corner becomes less of a gamble. Much less actually, because I have much better control. I guess if you are not having trouble doing it your way consistantly, it means you are losing a lot of time. I havn't actually seen any of your replays, but heard you have a reputation of being very very smooth (and not so fast, but pretty consistant) Maybe it�s time you put a little "screech" in the tires ? Joakim

In article <a9m43e$4f2cu$[email hidden]>, "Joakim Lauridsen" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>You don't have to take the corner that way,. I think you make it harder on >yourself. I know this is just one, or rather two corners, and you cannot >aply this at all of them. I don�t brake while turning ( before the haipin at >Rouen that is). I used to do that, but know I'm actually on the gas through >the bend before instead, and that setles the car down. Brake a little before >the bend, turn in early get on the gas to settle the car down and then brake >hard when you go straigt again. Of course on the gas doesn't mean full >throtle. ;-) This way, the corner becomes less of a gamble. Much less >actually, because I have much better control. I guess if you are not having >trouble doing it your way consistantly, it means you are losing a lot of >time. >

Remember what I said about not being able to judge speed in the slow corners? If I'm on the gas at all in the lefthander, I can't make the hairpin. If I'm on the brakes, I spin out. Coasting seems to be the only way of making the turn more than 60% of the time. >I havn't actually seen any of your replays, but heard you have a reputation >of being very very smooth (and not so fast, but pretty consistant) Maybe >it�s time you put a little "screech" in the tires ? If my tires are screeching there, it means I'm backwards heading towards the fence. I know what you mean for other turns, though. I just haven't been able to do it. If my tires are squealing, it's because I'm out of control. I haven't been able to figure out 'controlled sliding'. :( Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Okay, so the Detroit Tigers finally won a game. But is 1-11 *really* something to get excited over...? Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote: > > > If my tires are screeching there, it means I'm backwards heading towards the > fence. I know what you mean for other turns, though. I just haven't been able > to do it. If my tires are squealing, it's because I'm out of control. I > haven't been able to figure out 'controlled sliding'. :( Could it be that the setups you are using is a bit "edgy" ? I know that when I DL'ed some of the setups from the supposedly fast guys out there, it was no way I could drive those consistently, and it was not very enjoyable at all Allison Hine had some setups that was said to be very stable Personally I always found the Lotus and especially the Brabham to be a bit of a handful, especially in tight corners due to the amount of torque their engines produce at lower revs, the Eagle and the Honda were my fav cars, fairly stable cars with relatively long wheel base and not too much torque at low revs to upset the car, the Honda in particular was easy to drive, but then again I could never seem to get really good lap times with it and they were no where near my Lotus times, but then again I didn't spin out so much either :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<4Uou8.39864$[email hidden]>... > MS does how many laps each year at a particular track before a race? How many laps has MS run in his entire career to get to the point where his skills are as refined as they are now? I think the key in any sim is to run thousands of laps period. After thousands of laps in GPL I have no problems picking up N4 or N2002 and immediately going online and being a top car even though I almost never race them except for my weekly league race. I've never actually managed to get my controller calibrated to my liking in F1 2001 and I can still smoke the AI at 100% without much effort. I'm certainly no special talent or an alien, I've just spent tons of time in older sims and GPL. As far as laps at a particular track, I'd say that it should take about 15 minutes to learn a track and about 2 hours to start putting in some respectable times. Which isn't very long compared to how much testing real drivers put in. Race experience means more than testing time anyway, and that is where most real drivers have their thousands of laps at each track. I know in terms of simming I've learned more by racing on VROC and in leagues than I have by running a million solo laps or looking at Huttu's replays. In terms of NASCAR, even someone like Kevin Harvick has done thousands of laps at each track. This year alone NASCAR will put in 1000 laps at some tracks, not counting testing, qualifying, and warmup. Jason

In article <%Ojv8.63314$%[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> There's lots of good advice in this thread but there can easily come a point > where you can overthink your drivng technique. Ever notice how some kid who > could give a sh*t about what it is he's doing can sit down at a racing > game/sim and blow away someone who's a "serious" simmer? He isn't sitting > there thinking about where his braking points and weight transfer, etc. He > just drives. MS doesn't think about technique while he's driving either, he > just does it. This isn't rocket science after all. The engineering in F1 may > be though, :-) but not the driving. > > This overthinking comes from age I guess. It HAS to be complex. An older > simmer also doesn't want to be thought of as playing a kids game by others > so he insists to himself and his wife/girlfriend/friends that it's more > complex than it really is.

Real racing is a kid's game too. Does Kimi Raikkonen even shave yet? Marc

I'm starting to think David is actually on the right track about your controller. I know you have a really good wheel, but IIRC you are using default setups, and you are also using very little steering linearity. The combined effect of this is that even though it makes you very smooth you will have no ability to make the kind of sharp, quick steering corrections that can be necessary when you are right on the edge. I really think you should try using 100% linear steering, and change your setup to use less than 16:1 steering ratio (in GPL). And not just for a few minutes, but try it for a few days, maybe even a week. You will crash more initially because it takes a while to get used to faster steering. But after you do get used to it, it becomes so much easier to rescue a sliding car, you will be amazed. But don't take my word for it, I would like to hear from some of the more experienced people. From the setups I have looked at and the comments people have made in this newsgroup, I believe what I have just told you is something that all the fast guys are doing, but I would like to hear it from them and I'm sure you would too. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <a9m43e$4f2cu$[email hidden]>, "JoakimLauridsen" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >You don't have to take the corner that way,. I think you make itharder on > >yourself. I know this is just one, or rather two corners, and youcannot > >aply this at all of them. I don�t brake while turning ( before thehaipin at > >Rouen that is). I used to do that, but know I'm actually on the gasthrough > >the bend before instead, and that setles the car down. Brake a littlebefore > >the bend, turn in early get on the gas to settle the car down andthen brake > >hard when you go straigt again. Of course on the gas doesn't meanfull > >throtle. ;-) This way, the corner becomes less of a gamble. Much less > >actually, because I have much better control. I guess if you are nothaving > >trouble doing it your way consistantly, it means you are losing a lotof > >time. > > > > Remember what I said about not being able to judge speed in the slowcorners? > If I'm on the gas at all in the lefthander, I can't make the hairpin.If I'm > on the brakes, I spin out. Coasting seems to be the only way ofmaking the > turn more than 60% of the time. > > >I havn't actually seen any of your replays, but heard you have areputation > >of being very very smooth (and not so fast, but pretty consistant)Maybe > >it�s time you put a little "screech" in the tires ? > > If my tires are screeching there, it means I'm backwards headingtowards the > fence. I know what you mean for other turns, though. I just haven'tbeen able > to do it. If my tires are squealing, it's because I'm out of control.I

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> haven't been able to figure out 'controlled sliding'. :( > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Okay, so the Detroit Tigers finally won a game. But is 1-11 *really*

something > to get excited over...? > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 19:49:16 -0400, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote: >really think you should try using 100% linear steering, and change your >setup to use less than 16:1 steering ratio (in GPL). And not just for a >few minutes, but try it for a few days, maybe even a week. You will >crash more initially because it takes a while to get used to faster >steering. But after you do get used to it, it becomes so much easier to >rescue a sliding car, you will be amazed. Haqsau is very right here Eldred.. (allmost) full linearity is a must, I use something like 98% (100% is juuuust too sensitive for me) and I use much lower steering ratios. On most tracks I use 12:1, on tracks with hairpins like Mexico and Rouen I use something like 9:1. Very important: turn OFF the steering hack in the core.ini! With the hack on (default) the ratio changes at a certain speed so you can take hairpins more easily. But this is unnatural, and you don't feel 100% in control of the car with the hack on. As Hasqau says, in the beginning it will feel very hard to control with these settings, maybe you even need more than one week to adapt to this, but in the end you WILL have more control over the car once you get used to it. I must add that I have a Momo with a 270degree steering angle, so maybe a ratio of 9:1 is a tad too hard to handle on an 180degree wheel. Start with 12:1, and once you get used to that try to lower it step by step. Untill then, avoid Mexico and Monaco :) ------------------------ Something else to make this post a Pabst-length post: My pb at Monza is 27:1. No matter how hard I tried, I can't get any lower than that. A friend of mine recently broke the 27 range and did a 26.9. A 26 at Monza (and a sub8 at the Ring) are my two main goals in GPL. Last night I spent more than an hour comparing his and my replays in GPLRA. Up untill the entry to Para were are both exactly fast, in one replay I'm even 2/10ths faster than him. But I lose about half a second in the Para! We both drive the same line through Para, yet he could keep more speed in the corner and have a much better exit. I did literally thousands of laps on Monza, so more practice would simply be useless. I had to understand WHY he was faster in the Para. After comparing a lot of replays in GPLRA, and especially focussing on the graphs, I finally more or less understood what he was doing differently than me. Now I have to focus on this 'new' driving style in the para, and it will take me a while to get the hang of that. What also helped me btw was merging mine and his replay with Spygirl, and making notes of how much speed we were both carrying at different parts of the Para corner. The point of this all is that practice is good untill a certain amount, and when you are at the point where you will not get faster, where you have no idea where to focus, practice doesn't help much more. Then it's time to try to understand WHY other people are faster and HOW, so you get new targets/techniques to focus on. As allways, good luck and USE GPLRA :) Andre

In article <a9nm1f$4sivi$[email hidden]>, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>I'm starting to think David is actually on the right track about your >controller. I know you have a really good wheel, but IIRC you are using >default setups, and you are also using very little steering linearity. >The combined effect of this is that even though it makes you very smooth >you will have no ability to make the kind of sharp, quick steering >corrections that can be necessary when you are right on the edge. I >really think you should try using 100% linear steering, and change your >setup to use less than 16:1 steering ratio (in GPL). And not just for a >few minutes, but try it for a few days, maybe even a week. You will >crash more initially because it takes a while to get used to faster >steering. But after you do get used to it, it becomes so much easier to >rescue a sliding car, you will be amazed.

Currently my steering in GPL is set to under the "n" in linearity. Steering ratio in most setups are 16:1 or higher. If I go any higher on the linearity or lower on the steering ratio I end up zigzagging in the straights. And even with THOSE settings, I keep overcorrecting in slides. Example: driving on an oval, The car steps out, I correct, and go head-on into the wall. Same thing occasionally happens on road courses, but the oval track example is the easiest to describe. I'm not using the default setups, though. I only mentioned in another thread that the default setups are more than capable of matching the benchmark laps. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank - under construction... Okay, so the Detroit Tigers finally won a game. But is 1-11 *really* something to get excited over...? Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On 19 Apr 2002 12:16:13 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >Currently my steering in GPL is set to under the "n" in linearity. Steering >ratio in most setups are 16:1 or higher. If I go any higher on the linearity >or lower on the steering ratio I end up zigzagging in the straights. And even >with THOSE settings, I keep overcorrecting in slides. Example: driving on an I don't know the wheel you use, have you ever tried GPL with a high-quality wheel? You do need some precise equipment for the settings I mentioned. Andre

Andre Warringa wrote:

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> > On 19 Apr 2002 12:16:13 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > > >Currently my steering in GPL is set to under the "n" in linearity. Steering > >ratio in most setups are 16:1 or higher. If I go any higher on the linearity > >or lower on the steering ratio I end up zigzagging in the straights. And even > >with THOSE settings, I keep overcorrecting in slides. Example: driving on an > > I don't know the wheel you use, have you ever tried GPL with a > high-quality wheel? You do need some precise equipment for the > settings I mentioned.

And here goes Andre bragging about his Momo wheel again, poor Eldred is left sitting there with his obsolete TSW....... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002 15:47:09 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote: >And here goes Andre bragging about his Momo wheel again, poor Eldred is >left sitting there with his obsolete TSW....... Smartass :) I hope it was obvious that that was not the way I meant it :) With the GPL settings I gave the steering becomes much more twitchy, so if you have a bad controller of dirty pots the settings may be too twitchy to use. Andre PS Did I mention that I have a Logitech Momo(Tm)?

Something else to try if someone isn't happy with the wheel could be to turn linearity to 0% before calibrating. It made a difference on my system. Sounds a bit like UFO-hunting, but I think it's true. Achim "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 19:49:16 -0400, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >really think you should try using 100% linear steering, and change your > >setup to use less than 16:1 steering ratio (in GPL). And not just for a > >few minutes, but try it for a few days, maybe even a week. You will > >crash more initially because it takes a while to get used to faster > >steering. But after you do get used to it, it becomes so much easier to > >rescue a sliding car, you will be amazed. > > Haqsau is very right here Eldred.. (allmost) full linearity is a must, > I use something like 98% (100% is juuuust too sensitive for me) and I > use much lower steering ratios. On most tracks I use 12:1, on tracks > with hairpins like Mexico and Rouen I use something like 9:1. > > Very important: turn OFF the steering hack in the core.ini! > With the hack on (default) the ratio changes at a certain speed so you > can take hairpins more easily. But this is unnatural, and you don't > feel 100% in control of the car with the hack on. > > As Hasqau says, in the beginning it will feel very hard to control > with these settings, maybe you even need more than one week to adapt > to this, but in the end you WILL have more control over the car once > you get used to it. > > I must add that I have a Momo with a 270degree steering angle, so > maybe a ratio of 9:1 is a tad too hard to handle on an 180degree > wheel. Start with 12:1, and once you get used to that try to lower it > step by step. Untill then, avoid Mexico and Monaco :) > > ------------------------ > > Something else to make this post a Pabst-length post: > My pb at Monza is 27:1. No matter how hard I tried, I can't get any > lower than that. A friend of mine recently broke the 27 range and did > a 26.9. A 26 at Monza (and a sub8 at the Ring) are my two main goals > in GPL. > Last night I spent more than an hour comparing his and my replays in > GPLRA. Up untill the entry to Para were are both exactly fast, in one > replay I'm even 2/10ths faster than him. But I lose about half a > second in the Para! > > We both drive the same line through Para, yet he could keep more speed > in the corner and have a much better exit. I did literally thousands > of laps on Monza, so more practice would simply be useless. I had to > understand WHY he was faster in the Para. > > After comparing a lot of replays in GPLRA, and especially focussing on > the graphs, I finally more or less understood what he was doing > differently than me. Now I have to focus on this 'new' driving style > in the para, and it will take me a while to get the hang of that. > > What also helped me btw was merging mine and his replay with Spygirl, > and making notes of how much speed we were both carrying at different > parts of the Para corner. > > The point of this all is that practice is good untill a certain > amount, and when you are at the point where you will not get faster, > where you have no idea where to focus, practice doesn't help much > more. Then it's time to try to understand WHY other people are faster > and HOW, so you get new targets/techniques to focus on. > > As allways, good luck and USE GPLRA :) > > Andre

Andre Warringa wrote:

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> > On Fri, 19 Apr 2002 15:47:09 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >And here goes Andre bragging about his Momo wheel again, poor Eldred is > >left sitting there with his obsolete TSW....... > > Smartass :)

Not bad for a "Swede" eh ? Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

<snip> > I have REAL problems judging speeds at slower um, speeds. Boy, THAT was > redundant<g>. Things like the leadup to the hairpins at Rouen andMosport. > Especially at Rouen. A typical scenario is this: I hit the brakes. Itlooks > like I'm going too slow so I ease off the brakes, or in some cases hit thegas > again. Now, I realize that I'm going too fast, and have to jam on thebrakes. > After several laps of this, I'm now gun-shy and just coast up to where I > *think* I should nail the brakes. Not conducive for quick laptimes, Iadmit. > It's tougher at Rouen because I have to turn sharply while braking, andthat > causes the car to get unstable. So, I can't maintain the same brakepressure > consistently. It's a little easier(but not much) at Snetterton67.Because the > braking zone is straight, trial and error proceeds quicker.<snip> Remember that both gas and brakes are analogue controllers. Try *not* to let go of the brake at the left hander prior to the haripin. Add some gas instead while still pressing the brakes. Stability will improve. Go on the gas early at the exit of the hairpin, but don't press the pedal to the metal immediately. If the wheel spins, then you are pressing the gas pedal too hard. Change gears instead of going off the gas. Short shift before the next right hander. It feels slow, but is fast. Braking late isn't as important as being able to go on the gas early. Jon Andersen

<snip> > I havn't actually seen any of your replays, but heard you have areputation > of being very very smooth (and not so fast, but pretty consistant) Maybe > it�s time you put a little "screech" in the tires ?<snip> I have seen some replays of Eldred. He drove like he actually had paid for the car. He was smooth. No screeching anywhere. Screeching tires aren't necesserily fast, but Eldred would probably benefit from driving closer to the edge of screeching tires. Jon Andersen

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Andre Warringa) writes:

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>On 19 Apr 2002 12:16:13 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > >>Currently my steering in GPL is set to under the "n" in linearity. Steering >>ratio in most setups are 16:1 or higher. If I go any higher on the >linearity >>or lower on the steering ratio I end up zigzagging in the straights. And >even >>with THOSE settings, I keep overcorrecting in slides. Example: driving on >an > >I don't know the wheel you use, have you ever tried GPL with a >high-quality wheel? You do need some precise equipment for the >settings I mentioned.

TWS2mod, which *I* consided high-quality, anyway.<g> It's got about a 270 degree arc, also. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> I have seen some replays of Eldred. The replays of Eldred. He sounds like some mythical being. He truly is the legend of GPL. In a couple of thousand years scientists will carbon date the replays and discover they weren't from 1967 and pronounce the replays of Eldred as a fake created in the early 21st century...

On 19 Apr 2002 19:50:02 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >TWS2mod, which *I* consided high-quality, anyway.<g> It's got about a 270 >degree arc, also. > >Eldred Ok, I was just asking to figure out why your car is getting uncontrolable with full linearity settings.. Andre

Stuck me as being similar to Shrek. 8-) -- Chris H. "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ud%v8.2459$[email hidden]... > > I have seen some replays of Eldred. > > The replays of Eldred. > > He sounds like some mythical being. He truly is the legend of GPL. > > In a couple of thousand years scientists will carbon date the replays and > discover they weren't from 1967 and pronounce the replays of Eldred as a fake > created in the early 21st century... > > >

In article <bXXv8.4398$[email hidden]>, "Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> writes: >I have seen some replays of Eldred. He drove like he actually had paid for >the car. He was smooth. No screeching anywhere. Then we're either viewing different replays, or the sound is 'wonky' for one of us. I hear the tires squealing in almost every braking area, and also get wheelspin on exit way too much. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> The replays of Eldred. > > He sounds like some mythical being. He truly is the legend of GPL. > > In a couple of thousand years scientists will carbon date the replays and > discover they weren't from 1967 and pronounce the replays of Eldred as afake > created in the early 21st century... Greger Huttu has been challenged. He was number 2 at GPLrank for almost 24 hours. He is being chased hard at the MonsterRank. Someday he may be passed by some young nut born without any sence of fear at all. Unlike Greger, Eldred is a moving target. He is he reference point of the St.Eldreds Cup. Noone can beat him at St. Eldred's cup. Anybody (?) can kick Greger's rear end at GPLrank (??). (Mail me if you know how to do it) In the year of 2307, ppl may remember Greger as being 3rd on GPLrank. But they will remember Eldred being number 1 at St.Eldred's Cup. Jon Andersen

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse news:[email hidden]... > >I have seen some replays of Eldred. He drove like he actually had paidfor > >the car. He was smooth. No screeching anywhere. > > Then we're either viewing different replays, or the sound is 'wonky' forone of > us. I hear the tires squealing in almost every braking area, and also get > wheelspin on exit way too much. Not the kind of squel you are looking for I am afraid. The braking squel is all rigth, as long as you don't lock the brakes, but as mentioned earlier, it is not the braking that is most important. Corner and exit speed is far more important. You want to hear the tires schreaching going round most corners, not sliding mind you, because that means you are close to the limit. On exits wheel spin kills your exit speed and is very unhealthy for laptimes. Maybe concentrate on turning in better, so as to get on the gas earlier? If wheel spin is a problem for you on exit, lengthen your gears or chose a higher gear. Lower revs cost a lot less than having to lift because of wheel spin. Joakim

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Currently my steering in GPL is set to under the "n" in linearity.Steering > ratio in most setups are 16:1 or higher. If I go any higher on thelinearity > or lower on the steering ratio I end up zigzagging in the straights. It really does take a while to get used to it, but once you get used to it, it really isn't difficult to keep the car going straight. Give it at least a solid week. > And even > with THOSE settings, I keep overcorrecting in slides. Example:driving on an > oval, The car steps out, I correct, and go head-on into the wall.Same thing > occasionally happens on road courses, but the oval track example isthe easiest > to describe. As strange as it may sound, overcorrecting CAN be caused by not having enough steering sensitivity. When the rear end steps out on you, you need an IMMEDIATE twitch of the wheel to bring it back. And when I say twitch I mean two things. First it is not so much the size of the correction as the speed that is important. It has to be immediate, and you can't do that with slow steering. Secondly I am trying to say that you don't turn the wheel and leave it there, you have to twitch the car back into line and then almost as immediately point the wheels back in the correct direction or you do in fact end up with an overcorrection. That kind of small but fast correction is infinitely easier with high steering sensitivity (low steering ratio). Stop your bitching and try it, my friend!! ;o) > I'm not using the default setups, though. I only mentioned in > another thread that the default setups are more than capable ofmatching the

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> benchmark laps. > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank - under construction... > > Okay, so the Detroit Tigers finally won a game. But is 1-11 *really*

something > to get excited over...? > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. Two games now!!! Not that that in any way invalidates your point... ;o)

"> I think the key in any sim is to run thousands of laps period. If that is working for you, then you are all set. But Eldred seems to be seeking feedback because that strategy is not working for him. > > As far as laps at a particular track, I'd say that it should take > about 15 minutes to learn a track and about 2 hours to start putting > in some respectable times. Again, if that works for you, great. From what I've read here, though, it seems to be the case that Eldred has run many hundreds of laps at most of the GPL tracks...perhaps thousands. He knows the tracks... he can drive them very consistently. The problem is just that he wants to go faster. And he's having trouble getting faster doing what he's been doing. Under the circumstances, I think it's safe to say that a different approach is called for. Being a relative GPL newbie (just going on 5 months now), I am in a very poor position to do more than speculate. But I think that being new to the game is itself an advantage of sorts. Sure that sounds odd...but the fact is that when you're still new to these cars and still setting new pb's almost every time out....you don't take anything for granted in terms of technique. I compare my laps to those of faster people and I see where I am slower and then I try to figure out why. Once I think I have isolated a problem, then I try to fix it by changing how I drive. I still am constantly trying to alter and improve my own driving style. I experiment with taking corners differently... braking differently.... getting on the gas earlier or more smoothly... whatever seems to be called for based on the objective fact that somebody else is kicking my butt on a certain turn or track. In short, when I feel like I'm up against a wall and can't squeeze any more time out of a particular track without changing something....I change something -- and not just randomly if I can help it :-) If you have 1000's of laps under your belt at many tracks and have developed a comfortable and consistent driving style, it gets much harder to make such changes. But if your goal is more speed rather than continued consistency (itself not a bad goal) then you'll have to make changes. It might be your wheel...it might be your setups... it might be your braking... your acceleration... your lines... or some combination of all of the above. But without trying to mess with them you just won't know. The notion that somehow just increasing your lap count at this point will make you faster seems very unlikely to me. You've tried that, and it earned you consistency.... now maybe you have to shoot for some inconsistency for a while if your goal is more speed :-) Itazura

"ss" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse news:Kl8w8.40$[email hidden]... > > "> I think the key in any sim is to run thousands of laps period. > > If that is working for you, then you are all set. But Eldred seems to be > seeking feedback because that strategy is not working for him.[...] > The notion that somehow just increasing your lap count at > this point will make you faster seems very unlikely to me. You've tried > that, and it earned you consistency.... now maybe you have to shoot forsome > inconsistency for a while if your goal is more speed :-) A very sensible post, and I agree 100%. This is what I should have said earlier ;-) Regarding the thousands of laps Eldred have already done, I think they will help him now, even though in some respects they can also be a disadvantage. But the fact that Eldred knows the tracks, and can drive very consistantly, lets him focus on one turn or one part of the track at a time if he so needs to. Also, if he have been comparing himself to faster guys, (and using that info a little) his lines should be close to right, s� he can simply concentrate on pushing that little bit harder, But Elred, don't try too gain ehole seconds at a time, that will put you off tha track, concetentrate on tenths of seconds at a time. Joakim

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (jason moyer) writes:

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>I think the key in any sim is to run thousands of laps period. After >thousands of laps in GPL I have no problems picking up N4 or N2002 and >immediately going online and being a top car even though I almost >never race them except for my weekly league race. I've never actually >managed to get my controller calibrated to my liking in F1 2001 and I >can still smoke the AI at 100% without much effort. I'm certainly no >special talent or an alien, I've just spent tons of time in older sims >and GPL.

So have I. I've been driving racing sims since Indy500 or Grand Prix, whichever was first. Those things you just mentioned just tells me you're just that much BETTER than I am. I can't beat the AI in F1 2001 or N2002 even at 90%. And the RAS races have proven that I'm certainly not a top car. I'm usually last on all the speed charts, practice, qual, etc. I've run several full-length races in all those games. It's a lack of skill, not a lack of laps. I just have to accept that... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> writes:

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>EldredP wrote: >> >> >> If my tires are screeching there, it means I'm backwards heading towards >the >> fence. I know what you mean for other turns, though. I just haven't been >able >> to do it. If my tires are squealing, it's because I'm out of control. I >> haven't been able to figure out 'controlled sliding'. :( > >Could it be that the setups you are using is a bit "edgy" ? > >I know that when I DL'ed some of the setups from the supposedly fast >guys out there, it was no way I could drive those consistently, and it >was not very enjoyable at all > >Allison Hine had some setups that was said to be very stable

Yeah, I've been using Alison's setups for a while. I think I've gotten as far as I can with them... The above driving observation is still the same even with her setups. I've been told that other setups are faster, so I've been trying some others. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" wrote: > > > I've just spent tons of time in older sims and GPL. > > So have I. I've been driving racing sims since Indy500 or Grand Prix, > whichever was first. Those things you just mentioned just tells me you'rejust > that much BETTER than I am. I can't beat the AI in F1 2001 or N2002 even at > 90%. And the RAS races have proven that I'm certainly not a top car. I'm > usually last on all the speed charts, practice, qual, etc. > I've run several full-length races in all those games. It's a lack of skill, > not a lack of laps. I just have to accept that... I blame the internet. When I became champion in F1GP at the hardest level, I got told I driven at a level equal to a professional driver or something. I was rather pleased. When I got internet access I found the tweaks to make F1GP AI faster so they were a challenge cos anyone can beat them!!! Where else do you compare yourself to the best in the world? If you play golf at your local club do you compare yourself to the club pro - nope. Do you compare yourself to Tiger Woods - of course not. It is just the same. How can I go 2 secs faster or how can I do 18 holes in 5 shots less. In golf local players accept the fact and the challenge is to better themselves. I know snooker players who have played all their lives - countless hours of practice and never achieved even a 30 break. Yet they still enjoy it. Compare sim racing to joining a tennis, golf or snooker club, revel in the fact you are best in your house street, town, state or whatever and leave it at that. Then feel good that you race with a set of guys that like you and want you in their club. Tonyv

In article <og%w8.5688$[email hidden]>, "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> writes: >Where else do you compare yourself to the best in the world? If you play golf >at >your local club do you compare yourself to the club pro - nope. Do you >compare >yourself to Tiger Woods - of course not. It is just the same. How can I go 2 >secs faster or how can I do 18 holes in 5 shots less. If you're just trying to improve your OWN performance, you can do that by hotlapping...<g> But seriously, if your goal is to go 1 or 2 seconds faster, why do you even need to race with others? >In golf local players accept the fact and the challenge is to better >themselves. >I know snooker players who have played all their lives - countless hours of >practice and never achieved even a 30 break. Yet they still enjoy it. I don't know what that means, so I can't comment on it... :-)

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> >Compare sim racing to joining a tennis, golf or snooker club, revel in the >fact >you are best in your house street, town, state or whatever and leave it at >that. >Then feel good that you race with a set of guys that like you and want you in >their club.

Could you really be happy playing tennis every week and losing every time? Or, winning only because your opponent dropped out with an injury? Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" wrote:

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> > >Where else do you compare yourself to the best in the world? If you play golf > >at > >your local club do you compare yourself to the club pro - nope. Do you > >compare > >yourself to Tiger Woods - of course not. It is just the same. How can I go 2 > >secs faster or how can I do 18 holes in 5 shots less. > > If you're just trying to improve your OWN performance, you can do that by > hotlapping...<g> But seriously, if your goal is to go 1 or 2 seconds faster, > why do you even need to race with others?

When that goal is to be able to race with the guys 1-2 secs faster I suppose > >In golf local players accept the fact and the challenge is to better > >themselves. > >I know snooker players who have played all their lives - countless hours of > >practice and never achieved even a 30 break. Yet they still enjoy it. > > I don't know what that means, so I can't comment on it... :-) Like a 1:34 at Monza I guess...

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> >Compare sim racing to joining a tennis, golf or snooker club, revel in the > >fact > >you are best in your house street, town, state or whatever and leave it at > >that. > >Then feel good that you race with a set of guys that like you and want you in > >their club. > > Could you really be happy playing tennis every week and losing every time?

Or, > winning only because your opponent dropped out with an injury? I guess I didn't explain it very well. On-line racing by its nature of relatively few players and having no boundaries of locality doesn't have the equivalent of the local tennis club. So you might enter a tournament (e.g. VROC race) and be up against an equivalent of a Sampras. Even at local tennis club level there will stars for that club - who at a national level would come nowehere let alone world wide. On-line racing tends to miss out the local club levels and goes straight for international competition levels. So I think we tend to be harder on ourselves than other hobbies/sports. I was trying to instill some of the other values of the club ethos that do exist in on-line racing. It is not just about laptimes. Cheers Tony