Creating a sim to help with car setup

With all this physics talk here from guys who are creating their own sims it got me to wondering, if I was to try and do the same, would it help me to understand the physics involved with setting up a car, because at the moment I - and I guess quite a few others here - are pretty clueless when it comes to tinkering around in the virtual garage. Then of course, I thought, that's a hell of a long trawl in order to give me a better understanding of car setups. First I've got to go through all that programming learning curve before I get anywhere near the stage where I can start creating my own car with proper physics to boot. A hell of a lot of hard work! So, maybe there's a shortcut? Does all this sim creation help with understanding the finer points of car setup anyway and, if so, would anyone of the sim writers here consider creating a sim that would help disect the finer points of this esoteric art? What I had in mind was a sim where you could enable/disable certain parts of the physics engine and then go out and run a few laps to see how dramatically the handling of the car changes. As a for instance, there is a thread discussing ARBs and how they affect the physics. Wouldn't it be nice if a dumby like myself could actually be able to try out driving a car with and without ARBs so I could get a better handle on what they are supposed to do. The same goes for suspension, dampers, you name it, etc. It certainly sounds like a useful learning tool to me, so have I stirred any creative juices in some of the physics engine gurus around here? Or is it just a complete waste of time? What say you guys? -- Peter Ives Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

"Peter Ives" > What I had in mind was a sim where you could enable/disable certain

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> parts of the physics engine and then go out and run a few laps to see > how dramatically the handling of the car changes. As a for instance, > there is a thread discussing ARBs and how they affect the physics. > Wouldn't it be nice if a dumby like myself could actually be able to try > out driving a car with and without ARBs so I could get a better handle > on what they are supposed to do. The same goes for suspension, > dampers, you name it, etc. > > It certainly sounds like a useful learning tool to me, so have I stirred > any creative juices in some of the physics engine gurus around here? Or > is it just a complete waste of time? What say you guys? > -- > Peter Ives

One way to achieve what you are looking for is to move the setup elements to the extremes. Take a known setup, and change one item to it's full movement, i.e. drop the springs to the lowest setting , then run some laps, then raise the springs to the highest settings. going from one extreme to another may help isolate what each portion of the setup contributes to car behaivor.. (of course this is comming from a guy who regularly drives in a slightly concentric random pattern that often results in fences moving into the desired direction of travel.) dave henrie

What I would like to see would be an option for us to adjust the setup, and then have an "AI" driver actually do about 20 laps in the car to let us see how it affected the cars speed and tirewear. This could be used for showing us what the optimum lap times would be for a given setup, and give us a goal to shoot for as drivers also. Glen Pittman "Peter Ives" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> With all this physics talk here from guys who are creating their own > sims it got me to wondering, if I was to try and do the same, would it > help me to understand the physics involved with setting up a car, > because at the moment I - and I guess quite a few others here - are > pretty clueless when it comes to tinkering around in the virtual garage. > > Then of course, I thought, that's a hell of a long trawl in order to > give me a better understanding of car setups. First I've got to go > through all that programming learning curve before I get anywhere near > the stage where I can start creating my own car with proper physics to > boot. A hell of a lot of hard work! > > So, maybe there's a shortcut? Does all this sim creation help with > understanding the finer points of car setup anyway and, if so, would > anyone of the sim writers here consider creating a sim that would help > disect the finer points of this esoteric art? > > What I had in mind was a sim where you could enable/disable certain > parts of the physics engine and then go out and run a few laps to see > how dramatically the handling of the car changes. As a for instance, > there is a thread discussing ARBs and how they affect the physics. > Wouldn't it be nice if a dumby like myself could actually be able to try > out driving a car with and without ARBs so I could get a better handle > on what they are supposed to do. The same goes for suspension, > dampers, you name it, etc. > > It certainly sounds like a useful learning tool to me, so have I stirred > any creative juices in some of the physics engine gurus around here? Or > is it just a complete waste of time? What say you guys? > -- > Peter Ives > Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email > If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me > GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

>So, maybe there's a shortcut? Does all this sim creation help with >understanding the finer points of car setup anyway and, if so, would >anyone of the sim writers here consider creating a sim that would help >disect the finer points of this esoteric art? It definately helps understand how setup works because you're in there implementing every little effect yourself, and often times the effects come in one at a time. You really get a lot of insight into what really does what because you see the mathematical relationships between different things. For instance, you can eliminate the camber effects so you can see what spring rates do to the handling, then let dynamic camber come back in and see how that effects things, etc.. I play around with mine quite a bit doing exactly what you've descibed. >Then of course, I thought, that's a hell of a long trawl in order to >give me a better understanding of car setups. First I've got to go >through all that programming learning curve before I get anywhere near >the stage where I can start creating my own car with proper physics to >boot. A hell of a lot of hard work! Yes, it takes a long time just to do a decent car model, especially if you haven't written a program before. I've been at mine for two years now, and that was after doing the drag racing simulation progam, so I already had some basics down at the start. However, the two years included the time learning most of the 3-D graphics programming, vector/matrix calculations and so on. Of course, if you could work on it full time with all the info out there now, it wouldn't take that long. When I started there wasn't much out there to look at (that I was aware of, anyway), so I had to figure out most of the stuff independently, which takes quite a bit longer obviously. I think it's a good idea though. I've been at this with the purpose in mind of creating something where you could basically design the whole car yourself and just go crazy. That would include being able to disconnect ARB's, etc.. It can get pretty complicated quickly though when you're able to adjust suspension arm lengths and so forth. Still, I usually just copy one suspension system over to a new car, then tweak it from there, so it's not too bad. Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com My little car sim screenshots: http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 08:14:27 -0400, "Glen Pittman" <[email hidden]> wrote: >What I would like to see would be an option for us to adjust the setup, and >then have an "AI" driver actually do about 20 laps in the car to let us see >how it affected the cars speed and tirewear. I wouldn't trust todays games' AI to not take enough shortcuts to do bad at misbehaved setups. Ahem, in English; don't think of the AI too much as an intelligent adaptive being. ;-) Copying AI behavior is a disgrace to your own intelligence. :) Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 03:06:38 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Peter Ives" > What I had in mind was a sim where you could enable/disable >certain >> parts of the physics engine and then go out and run a few laps to see >> how dramatically the handling of the car changes. As a for instance, >> there is a thread discussing ARBs and how they affect the physics. >> Wouldn't it be nice if a dumby like myself could actually be able to try >> out driving a car with and without ARBs so I could get a better handle >> on what they are supposed to do. The same goes for suspension, >> dampers, you name it, etc. >> >> It certainly sounds like a useful learning tool to me, so have I stirred >> any creative juices in some of the physics engine gurus around here? Or >> is it just a complete waste of time? What say you guys? >> -- >> Peter Ives > One way to achieve what you are looking for is to move the setup elements >to the extremes.

I'd say so, yes. In my own Racer, I can completely eliminate ARBs by setting them at 0, and will introduce a 'camber' on/off flag so you can ditch camber effects (mostly for debugging, but useful for what you're (Peter) looking for). I wouldn't go for programming a sim, although it does help; it's too much work and probably too frustrating compared to the useful effects. I'd rather then just read some books and learn the mathematical and practical effects the things have on one another. Although indeed a sim gives 'feeling' to mathematical relationships that you can't obtain from a book. Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

In article <[email hidden]>, Ruud van Gaal <[email hidden]> writes

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>On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 03:06:38 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> >wrote: > >> >>> It certainly sounds like a useful learning tool to me, so have I stirred >>> any creative juices in some of the physics engine gurus around here? Or >>> is it just a complete waste of time? What say you guys? >>> -- >>> Peter Ives >> One way to achieve what you are looking for is to move the setup >elements >>to the extremes. > >I'd say so, yes. In my own Racer, I can completely eliminate ARBs by >setting them at 0, and will introduce a 'camber' on/off flag so you >can ditch camber effects (mostly for debugging, but useful for what >you're (Peter) looking for). >

Sounds cool. I think it's about time I d/l'd an updated version of your sim. The last time was over 6 months ago. Err... sorry 'bout that. ;-)

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>I wouldn't go for programming a sim, although it does help; it's too >much work and probably too frustrating compared to the useful effects. >I'd rather then just read some books and learn the mathematical and >practical effects the things have on one another. Although indeed a >sim gives 'feeling' to mathematical relationships that you can't >obtain from a book. >

I'm sure studying all those formulae, before getting down to the programming nitty-gritty is a great help once you get a handle on how they work in the 'real world', but like you say, as much as I'd love to spend hours and hours programming my own, I just don't have that kind of time. (Maybe when I retire, eh?). And I still think this is a great idea, the ultimate d-i-y sim car physics setup and testing engine. 'Turn yourself from a clueless spannerhead into setup guru with this fantastic aid to car setup and all its idiosyncracies. Eek out those extra tenths in other sims by eliminating push, oversteer understeer, tyre wear and more because now YOU know how it all goes together.!!!' Gee, it practically rolls of the tongue... practically. :) -- Peter Ives Remove ALL_STRESS only before sending me an email