Upcoming N2K2 Patch

'If goven a choice LPI is the only ranking I'd *keep* Such a great shame Papyrus never keept the "minimum-LPI-to-join-race" criteria we had on TEN.' ed_ 'FYI that feature will be included in the upcoming 1.1 patch.' - Eric Busch This means,too the best of my knowledge, SS races as far as the eye can see since no one will risk their precious 'LPI' at Richmond, Bristol, or Sears. Or maybe I'm missing something. On a positive note, I can't think of a software product as 'finished' as NASCAR 2002. Truly outstanding quality control on the part of Papyrus. That said I will add a couple of niggles to my wish list: 1- Suppress the Ideal Racing Line in races. Or give the server boss that option. It detracts from the old Immersion Factor. 2- Too many blown engines during qualifying. Can't think of anything else.

I beg to differ.... This will give us the chance to race others with equal equal or better LPI... Meaning that the next time you join a 4-10 race - you dont have to ask your self if the bozo behind you got his skill-points by being clean or just be being persistant (sp?).... you know his LPI atlest matches some kind of minimum. I for one would rather race 10 guys with skill level 1 and and LPI of 100+ than 1 guy with skill level 5 and an LPI under 10. To me racing is about competion in a safe clean enviroment - not muscleing (sp?) one's way to the front in the shortest time possible. -- ed_ "P.C. Oxford" said: > > This means,too the best of my knowledge, SS races as far as the eye can see > since no one will risk their precious 'LPI' at Richmond, Bristol, or Sears. > Or maybe I'm missing something. >

HI PC, > This means, ...SS races as far as the eye can see > since no one will risk their precious 'LPI' at Richmond, > Bristol, or Sears I wouldn't worry about that. Because once a server sets a higher minimum lpi requirement, there will be better and cleaner drivers in that race, and it will be far less risky for our lpi to join that race. Apart from the fact that it'll be a lot more fun racing with the cleaner drivers. Finally we'll see realistic races there instead of accident-dodging contests. Achim

Is there any way to have our lpi reset other than using a new name? As I said in another thread, my lpi is at 30, but only because I ran in so many SS pick up races after the game was released and before we got things organized here at r.a.s. with the RASCAR races. I've only had four incidents in the 10 RASCAR races we've run (one my fault) and would probably have an lpi of about 200 if I had used a new user name when we started them. I don't want to be locked out of any races when the patch is released. David G Fisher "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aa0883$6mtdl$[email hidden]...

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> HI PC, > > > This means, ...SS races as far as the eye can see > > since no one will risk their precious 'LPI' at Richmond, > > Bristol, or Sears > > I wouldn't worry about that. Because once a server sets a higher minimum

lpi

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> requirement, there will be better and cleaner drivers in that race, and it > will be far less risky for our lpi to join that race. Apart from the fact > that it'll be a lot more fun racing with the cleaner drivers. > > Finally we'll see realistic races there instead of accident-dodging > contests. > > Achim > > >

In article <CcRw8.84559$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> Is there any way to have our lpi reset other than using a new name? > > As I said in another thread, my lpi is at 30, but only because I ran in so > many SS pick up races after the game was released and before we got things > organized here at r.a.s. with the RASCAR races. I've only had four incidents > in the 10 RASCAR races we've run (one my fault) and would probably have an > lpi of about 200 if I had used a new user name when we started them. I don't > want to be locked out of any races when the patch is released. > > David G Fisher >

Welcome to pickup racing. I wouldn't worry about it too much Dave. With this weekend's races, I went from 15.3 to 22.4 in LPI. I don't race a lot, and when I started racing on eldred's server, it's done nothing but increase. If we could have races on weekdays, our LPI's would get better faster. :) People that have less than 10 lpi after 30 races arer typically WAY below 10 (6 or lower), and this is a fairly consistant indication of wrecker status. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> Is there any way to have our lpi reset other than using a new name? > > As I said in another thread, my lpi is at 30, but only because I ran in so > many SS pick up races after the game was released and before we got things > organized here at r.a.s. with the RASCAR races. I've only had four incidents > in the 10 RASCAR races we've run (one my fault) and would probably have an > lpi of about 200 if I had used a new user name when we started them. I don't > want to be locked out of any races when the patch is released.

Good point David. There should have been a history dimention to the lpi aswell. Like calculate the lpi on the last 30 races or something like that. Drivers improve, but the lpi don't reflect that. -- Olav Malmin remove .spam when replying

So, how does one get onto the ladder. I have not joined a league and have not raced online yet in N2K2. My N4 LPI was pretty cruddy (20ish), because with the limited time I have all I could partake in was pickups on Papy servers, which, given I actually wanted a field to race against, were almost always SS, and therefore almost inevitably wrecker-fests. It's actually been months since I've ventured online. I don't want to risk other people's fun getting online until I have a PC that's more up to the task (it pains me to be missing out on RASCAR), but once I do, am I even going to be able to get started? With wreckers locked out, will newbies have a chance? As an aside, it may be a little while before I can get to RASCAR for reasons mentioned above, but can I reserve #69? Pretty please??? Mark Reading, UK "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<aa0883$6mtdl$[email hidden]>...

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> I wouldn't worry about that. Because once a server sets a higher minimum lpi > requirement, there will be better and cleaner drivers in that race, and it > will be far less risky for our lpi to join that race. Apart from the fact > that it'll be a lot more fun racing with the cleaner drivers. > > Finally we'll see realistic races there instead of accident-dodging > contests.

[email hidden] (Mark) writes:

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> So, how does one get onto the ladder. I have not joined a league and > have not raced online yet in N2K2. My N4 LPI was pretty cruddy > (20ish), because with the limited time I have all I could partake in > was pickups on Papy servers, which, given I actually wanted a field to > race against, were almost always SS, and therefore almost inevitably > wrecker-fests. It's actually been months since I've ventured online. > I don't want to risk other people's fun getting online until I have a > PC that's more up to the task (it pains me to be missing out on > RASCAR), but once I do, am I even going to be able to get started?

There's no need as far as I can see to use lpi restrictions at RASCAR races as long as there is a password. -- Olav Malmin remove .spam when replying

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> [email hidden] (Mark) writes: > > > So, how does one get onto the ladder. I have not joined a league and > > have not raced online yet in N2K2. My N4 LPI was pretty cruddy > > (20ish), because with the limited time I have all I could partake in > > was pickups on Papy servers, which, given I actually wanted a field to > > race against, were almost always SS, and therefore almost inevitably > > wrecker-fests. It's actually been months since I've ventured online. > > I don't want to risk other people's fun getting online until I have a > > PC that's more up to the task (it pains me to be missing out on > > RASCAR), but once I do, am I even going to be able to get started? > > There's no need as far as I can see to use lpi restrictions at RASCAR > races as long as there is a password. >

We could/should still use the muzzle/ban list that's being maintained. We don't want some wrecker asshole to wander in here and see a chance to ruin passworded races by jumping into ours. I also think we should use LPI restrictions (setting the minimum LPI to 10). It's our group and we have every right to expect it to be protected from the morons and children. -- ========================================================= DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

John Simmons <[email hidden]> writes:

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > [email hidden] (Mark) writes: > > > > > So, how does one get onto the ladder. I have not joined a league and > > > have not raced online yet in N2K2. My N4 LPI was pretty cruddy > > > (20ish), because with the limited time I have all I could partake in > > > was pickups on Papy servers, which, given I actually wanted a field to > > > race against, were almost always SS, and therefore almost inevitably > > > wrecker-fests. It's actually been months since I've ventured online. > > > I don't want to risk other people's fun getting online until I have a > > > PC that's more up to the task (it pains me to be missing out on > > > RASCAR), but once I do, am I even going to be able to get started? > > > > There's no need as far as I can see to use lpi restrictions at RASCAR > > races as long as there is a password. > > > > We could/should still use the muzzle/ban list that's being maintained. > We don't want some wrecker asshole to wander in here and see a chance to > ruin passworded races by jumping into ours. > > I also think we should use LPI restrictions (setting the minimum LPI to > 10). It's our group and we have every right to expect it to be > protected from the morons and children.

But it's passworded. And this is the only place to get it. Of course, if it is a super moron who bothers to search newsgroups for passwords to ruin others races, then I don't think a lpi restriction will help much. IMHO of course. My biggest problem right now is to be antisocial enough with my friends to be able to attend the races at all (10 pm saturday...) so my saying isn't worth squat at the moment :) -- Olav Malmin remove .spam when replying

"Olav Malmin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> John Simmons <[email hidden]> writes: >My biggest problem right now is to be antisocial > enough with my friends to be able to attend the races at all (10 pm > saturday...) so my saying isn't worth squat at the moment :) > > -- > Olav Malmin > remove .spam when replying

Mikkel Gram-Hansen mentioned he would look into supplying a server for European RASCAR races. Don't know what the status is with that. David G Fisher

"On a positive note, I can't think of a software product as 'finished' as NASCAR 2002." It's hard to imagine anyone actually thinking this. It's still beta software IMO. Perhaps the multiplayer portion of it but even that is buggy. The sound issue alone excludes the game from being anywhere close to gold, or what should have been gold. We all got suckered. Again, just my opinion. "P.C. Oxford" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GWIw8.143867$[email hidden]...

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> 'If goven a choice LPI is the only ranking I'd *keep* > > Such a great shame Papyrus never keept the "minimum-LPI-to-join-race" > criteria we had on TEN.' > ed_ > > 'FYI that feature will be included in the upcoming 1.1 patch.' > - Eric Busch > > This means,too the best of my knowledge, SS races as far as the eye can

see > since no one will risk their precious 'LPI' at Richmond, Bristol, orSears. > Or maybe I'm missing something. > > On a positive note, I can't think of a software product as 'finished' as > NASCAR 2002. Truly outstanding quality control on the part of Papyrus.That

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> said I will add a couple of niggles to my wish list: > 1- Suppress the Ideal Racing Line in races. Or give the server boss that > option. It detracts from the old Immersion Factor. > 2- Too many blown engines during qualifying. > > Can't think of anything else. > > >

"Kevin" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> "On a positive note, I can't think of a software product as 'finished' as > NASCAR 2002." > > It's hard to imagine anyone actually thinking this. It's still beta > software IMO. Perhaps the multiplayer portion of it but even that is buggy. > The sound issue alone excludes the game from being anywhere close to gold, > or what should have been gold. We all got suckered. Again, just my opinion.

Compared to the state of F1 2001 at release (no ff and STILL no proper split axis for the MSFF (don't give me that dxtweak excuse)) I'd say N2002 works pretty well. Specially on a non XP-environment :)

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> > > > "P.C. Oxford" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:GWIw8.143867$[email hidden]... > > 'If goven a choice LPI is the only ranking I'd *keep* > > > > Such a great shame Papyrus never keept the "minimum-LPI-to-join-race" > > criteria we had on TEN.' > > ed_ > > > > 'FYI that feature will be included in the upcoming 1.1 patch.' > > - Eric Busch > > > > This means,too the best of my knowledge, SS races as far as the eye can > see > > since no one will risk their precious 'LPI' at Richmond, Bristol, or > Sears. > > Or maybe I'm missing something. > > > > On a positive note, I can't think of a software product as 'finished' as > > NASCAR 2002. Truly outstanding quality control on the part of Papyrus. > That > > said I will add a couple of niggles to my wish list: > > 1- Suppress the Ideal Racing Line in races. Or give the server boss that > > option. It detracts from the old Immersion Factor. > > 2- Too many blown engines during qualifying. > > > > Can't think of anything else. > > > > > > > >

-- Olav Malmin remove .spam when replying

Yep. Forcing non-use of the driving line ? Who cares if someone uses it ? A bit on the extreme side IMO. -John "John Hilsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 00:36:54 GMT, "P.C. Oxford" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > >On a positive note, I can't think of a software product as 'finished' as > >NASCAR 2002. Truly outstanding quality control on the part of Papyrus.That

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> >said I will add a couple of niggles to my wish list: > >1- Suppress the Ideal Racing Line in races. Or give the server boss that > >option. It detracts from the old Immersion Factor. > > I disagree with this. Smoke and even forced cockpit I can understand, > but why the driving line? Might as well have the server force > surround sound and the cars/distance drawn too :) > > > >Can't think of anything else. > > I wish there was a way to connect to a server as a 'broadcaster'. I > connect to Server X and can't race, but other people can now join MY > computer and watch the race. > > >

To a point, I'd agree with this. Still have some of the problems pre-patch N4, and earlier versions, did(pace car bugs, AI issues for those that race that way, etc.). -John "Kevin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "On a positive note, I can't think of a software product as 'finished' as > NASCAR 2002." > > It's hard to imagine anyone actually thinking this. It's still beta > software IMO. Perhaps the multiplayer portion of it but even that isbuggy. > The sound issue alone excludes the game from being anywhere close to gold, > or what should have been gold. We all got suckered. Again, just myopinion.

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> > > > > "P.C. Oxford" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:GWIw8.143867$[email hidden]... > > 'If goven a choice LPI is the only ranking I'd *keep* > > > > Such a great shame Papyrus never keept the "minimum-LPI-to-join-race" > > criteria we had on TEN.' > > ed_ > > > > 'FYI that feature will be included in the upcoming 1.1 patch.' > > - Eric Busch > > > > This means,too the best of my knowledge, SS races as far as the eye can > see > > since no one will risk their precious 'LPI' at Richmond, Bristol, or > Sears. > > Or maybe I'm missing something. > > > > On a positive note, I can't think of a software product as 'finished' as > > NASCAR 2002. Truly outstanding quality control on the part of Papyrus. > That > > said I will add a couple of niggles to my wish list: > > 1- Suppress the Ideal Racing Line in races. Or give the server boss that > > option. It detracts from the old Immersion Factor. > > 2- Too many blown engines during qualifying. > > > > Can't think of anything else. > > > > > > > >

Yes, why would people be upset if other rookie drivers know where to drive? Would you rather have them all over the track running inconsistent lines? It's in the best interest of everyone that cars run clean laps. As for the immersion factor then turn it off, it's not as if it's forced on by the server. "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Yep. Forcing non-use of the driving line ? Who cares if someone usesit

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> ? A bit on the extreme side IMO. > > -John > > > "John Hilsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 00:36:54 GMT, "P.C. Oxford" <[email hidden]> > > wrote: > > >On a positive note, I can't think of a software product as 'finished'

as > > >NASCAR 2002. Truly outstanding quality control on the part of Papyrus. > That > > >said I will add a couple of niggles to my wish list: > > >1- Suppress the Ideal Racing Line in races. Or give the server bossthat

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> > >option. It detracts from the old Immersion Factor. > > > > I disagree with this. Smoke and even forced cockpit I can understand, > > but why the driving line? Might as well have the server force > > surround sound and the cars/distance drawn too :) > > > > > > >Can't think of anything else. > > > > I wish there was a way to connect to a server as a 'broadcaster'. I > > connect to Server X and can't race, but other people can now join MY > > computer and watch the race. > > > > > > > >

Not as far as I know David... This might just be speculations - but I wouldnt be suprised if Papy choose to reset everyone's LPI now that it will actually have a meaning.... - but then maybe not!(here's to hoping!) -- ed_ "David G Fisher" said: > Is there any way to have our lpi reset other than using a new name?

I think if you have to look at a line to know where to drive, you arent good enough to be racing online, and will probably just cause wrecks. "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%bVw8.1075$[email hidden]... > Yes, why would people be upset if other rookie drivers know where todrive? > Would you rather have them all over the track running inconsistent lines? > It's in the best interest of everyone that cars run clean laps. As forthe

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> immersion factor then turn it off, it's not as if it's forced on by the > server. > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Yep. Forcing non-use of the driving line ? Who cares if someone uses > it > > ? A bit on the extreme side IMO. > > > > -John > > > > > > "John Hilsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 00:36:54 GMT, "P.C. Oxford" <[email hidden]> > > > wrote: > > > >On a positive note, I can't think of a software product as 'finished' > as > > > >NASCAR 2002. Truly outstanding quality control on the part of

Papyrus.

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> > That > > > >said I will add a couple of niggles to my wish list: > > > >1- Suppress the Ideal Racing Line in races. Or give the server boss > that > > > >option. It detracts from the old Immersion Factor. > > > > > > I disagree with this. Smoke and even forced cockpit I can understand, > > > but why the driving line? Might as well have the server force > > > surround sound and the cars/distance drawn too :) > > > > > > > > > >Can't think of anything else. > > > > > > I wish there was a way to connect to a server as a 'broadcaster'. I > > > connect to Server X and can't race, but other people can now join MY > > > computer and watch the race. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I think those that complain about the line aren't good enough to win when others are using it ;) The line helps people run consistent laps especially at new tracks. I personally agree that most should be able to run without it if racing online but most I have seen cannot. "rambo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:OaWw8.162947$[email hidden]... > I think if you have to look at a line to know where to drive, you arentgood

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> enough to be racing online, and will probably just cause wrecks. > > "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:%bVw8.1075$[email hidden]... > > Yes, why would people be upset if other rookie drivers know where to > drive? > > Would you rather have them all over the track running inconsistent

lines?

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> > It's in the best interest of everyone that cars run clean laps. As for > the > > immersion factor then turn it off, it's not as if it's forced on by the > > server. > > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Yep. Forcing non-use of the driving line ? Who cares if someone

uses

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> > it > > > ? A bit on the extreme side IMO. > > > > > > -John > > > > > > > > > "John Hilsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 00:36:54 GMT, "P.C. Oxford" <[email hidden]> > > > > wrote: > > > > >On a positive note, I can't think of a software product as

'finished'

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> > as > > > > >NASCAR 2002. Truly outstanding quality control on the part of > Papyrus. > > > That > > > > >said I will add a couple of niggles to my wish list: > > > > >1- Suppress the Ideal Racing Line in races. Or give the server boss > > that > > > > >option. It detracts from the old Immersion Factor. > > > > > > > > I disagree with this. Smoke and even forced cockpit I can

understand,

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> > > > but why the driving line? Might as well have the server force > > > > surround sound and the cars/distance drawn too :) > > > > > > > > > > > > >Can't think of anything else. > > > > > > > > I wish there was a way to connect to a server as a 'broadcaster'. I > > > > connect to Server X and can't race, but other people can now join MY > > > > computer and watch the race. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > To a point, I'd agree with this. Still have some of the problems > pre-patch N4, and earlier versions, did(pace car bugs, AI issues for those > that race that way, etc.). This is only to say that I've never had fewer 'issues' with such a product, pre-patch. In evaluating a sim's 'finished quality' you shouldn't really include the AI element. IMO. Let's be honest. Rack your memory. Which simulation, one that approaches the complexity of N2K2, has had satisfactory AI? And I'm including combat flight sims, wargames, etc. Answer: very few. Or, how about, NONE. OK, maybe GPL has tough AI pilots, in a relentless, robotic kind of way. I feel that Papyrus was ingenious enough in N2K2 to make the AI drivers variable in performance from race to race. Human-like AI is a mirage, the closer you get the faster it recedes. Maybe the programmers will arrive one day, but that day won't be tomorrow. Racing the AI is for those who can't or won't race online. There's just no comparaison. If the AI is challenging enough to help newbies learn the game or to practice against then the developer has succeeded, especially in the dawning age of broadband. Simracers are the toughest, hardest-to-please consumer group there is.

Hi Dave, don't worry about that. Most servers will set their lpi fairly low anyway - just look at the ratings they require: they're usually set to 0-10, with only very few asking anything but 0 on the left hand side. Achim "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CcRw8.84559$[email hidden]... > Is there any way to have our lpi reset other than using a new name? > > As I said in another thread, my lpi is at 30, but only because I ran in so > many SS pick up races after the game was released and before we got things > organized here at r.a.s. with the RASCAR races. I've only had fourincidents > in the 10 RASCAR races we've run (one my fault) and would probably have an > lpi of about 200 if I had used a new user name when we started them. Idon't > want to be locked out of any races when the patch is released.

I'm pretty sure the Papy servers will remain set to low or zero lpi, and as I said to David, looking at how most servers hardly use the current ranking system (most are set to 0-10), I don't expect the majority of servers to impose any major restrictions WRT the lpi. RASCAR probably won't use lpi anyway, as these races are passworded anyway. Achim "Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> So, how does one get onto the ladder. I have not joined a league and > have not raced online yet in N2K2. My N4 LPI was pretty cruddy > (20ish), because with the limited time I have all I could partake in > was pickups on Papy servers, which, given I actually wanted a field to > race against, were almost always SS, and therefore almost inevitably > wrecker-fests. It's actually been months since I've ventured online. > I don't want to risk other people's fun getting online until I have a > PC that's more up to the task (it pains me to be missing out on > RASCAR), but once I do, am I even going to be able to get started? > > With wreckers locked out, will newbies have a chance? > > As an aside, it may be a little while before I can get to RASCAR for > reasons mentioned above, but can I reserve #69? > > Pretty please??? > > Mark > Reading, UK > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<aa0883$6mtdl$[email hidden]>... > > I wouldn't worry about that. Because once a server sets a higher minimumlpi > > requirement, there will be better and cleaner drivers in that race, andit > > will be far less risky for our lpi to join that race. Apart from thefact > > that it'll be a lot more fun racing with the cleaner drivers. > > > > Finally we'll see realistic races there instead of accident-dodging > > contests.

Fwiw, I was just using the AI as an example. Personally, AI issues are not a concern for me, but for those who do race the AI, they obviously are. In terms of a finished product pre-patch.........I should hope so, they've had enough practice at it :) Being as it's more or less a clone of N4, it shouldn't need any patching, except for additions, not to fix existing items. The argument about simracers being the hardest consumers, etc. comes up again. No, the pc gaming industry gets thrown more perks for sub-standard products than any. Name one other business you'd be willing to accept the same results/product quality in, that is received in the software gaming industry. And please spare the "but all software has bugs" etc. spiel. That's because they're allowed to. Same thing gets preached over and over for years in the flight sim industry............be nice to developers or flight sims will go away..........been hearing that bs for fourteen years now myself.........as flight sims keep getting churned out year after year. IMO of course :) -John "P.C. Oxford" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9zWw8.147715$[email hidden]... > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > To a point, I'd agree with this. Still have some of the problems > > pre-patch N4, and earlier versions, did(pace car bugs, AI issues forthose > > that race that way, etc.). > > This is only to say that I've never had fewer 'issues' with such aproduct, > pre-patch. In evaluating a sim's 'finished quality' you shouldn't really > include the AI element. IMO. > > Let's be honest. Rack your memory. Which simulation, one that approachesthe > complexity of N2K2, has had satisfactory AI? And I'm including combatflight

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> sims, wargames, etc. Answer: very few. Or, how about, NONE. OK, maybe GPL > has tough AI pilots, in a relentless, robotic kind of way. I feel that > Papyrus was ingenious enough in N2K2 to make the AI drivers variable in > performance from race to race. > > Human-like AI is a mirage, the closer you get the faster it recedes. Maybe > the programmers will arrive one day, but that day won't be tomorrow.

Racing > the AI is for those who can't or won't race online. There's just no > comparaison. If the AI is challenging enough to help newbies learn thegame > or to practice against then the developer has succeeded, especially in the > dawning age of broadband. > > Simracers are the toughest, hardest-to-please consumer group there is. > >

"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Fwiw, I was just using the AI as an example. Personally, AI issues are > not a concern for me, but for those who do race the AI, they obviouslyare. > > In terms of a finished product pre-patch.........I should hope so,they've > had enough practice at it :) > > Being as it's more or less a clone of N4, it shouldn't need anypatching,

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> except for additions, not to fix existing items. > > The argument about simracers being the hardest consumers, etc. comes up > again. No, the pc gaming industry gets thrown more perks for sub-standard > products than any. > Name one other business you'd be willing to accept the same > results/product quality in, that is received in the software gaming > industry. And please spare the "but all software has bugs" etc. spiel. > That's because they're allowed to. > > Same thing gets preached over and over for years in the flight sim > industry............be nice to developers or flight sims will go > away..........been hearing that bs for fourteen years now

myself.........as > flight sims keep getting churned out year after year. > > IMO of course :) > > -John I stand by these observations: 1- NASCAR 2002 is the best selling, most state of the art racing sim out there. For now. And they provide free servers. 2- It's good because the developpers are racers themselves and they listen to their core audience. Papyrus proved its dedication to the sim community by releasing a 3D patch for GPL long after that title had disappeared from store shelves. They're good guys. 3- Racing the AI is for timid souls or those cursed with poor internet connections. 4- I've hung around some of the flight sim forums, the RPG forums, the wargame forums and nobody does more carping, kvetching, and niggling than auto simmers. Remark, this might be good for the hobby if it spurs the developpers on to ever greater efforts. Personally, I couldn't take it. 5- If you can compare it to other software out there what ARE we to compare it to? EA's F2001 is in its 3rd iteration and has more 'issues' than N2K2. Just my opinion. Of course. Cheers, -Peter

30 isn't necessarily bad for WON online racing :) -Larry "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CcRw8.84559$[email hidden]... > Is there any way to have our lpi reset other than using a new name? > > As I said in another thread, my lpi is at 30, but only because I ran in so > many SS pick up races after the game was released and before we got things > organized here at r.a.s. with the RASCAR races. I've only had fourincidents > in the 10 RASCAR races we've run (one my fault) and would probably have an > lpi of about 200 if I had used a new user name when we started them. Idon't

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> want to be locked out of any races when the patch is released. > > David G Fisher > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:aa0883$6mtdl$[email hidden]... > > HI PC, > > > > > This means, ...SS races as far as the eye can see > > > since no one will risk their precious 'LPI' at Richmond, > > > Bristol, or Sears > > > > I wouldn't worry about that. Because once a server sets a higher minimum > lpi > > requirement, there will be better and cleaner drivers in that race, and

it > > will be far less risky for our lpi to join that race. Apart from thefact

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> > that it'll be a lot more fun racing with the cleaner drivers. > > > > Finally we'll see realistic races there instead of accident-dodging > > contests. > > > > Achim > > > > > > > >

John Pancoast <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Yep. Forcing non-use of the driving line ? Who cares if someone usesit > ? A bit on the extreme side IMO. > > -John > > I agree John, especially when racing with noobs. It shows them where one is generally going to lift, brake and get back into the gas. A couple of weeks ago I noticed it paying off since I only got punted once in a Marty race where noobs tend to drive HARD into the corners and rear end the guys that actually know how to get around the place.(The line there must have been showing them 'Hey, lift early, brake straight, then corner...) Leave it be for the learners, turn it off if you don't like it.

Exactly. It doesn't give an unfair advantage, so don't know why it should be banned. -John "Admin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Dq%w8.75933$[email hidden]...

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> > John Pancoast <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Yep. Forcing non-use of the driving line ? Who cares if someone uses > it > > ? A bit on the extreme side IMO. > > > > -John > > > > > > I agree John, especially when racing with noobs. It shows them where one

is > generally going to lift, brake and get back into the gas. A couple ofweeks

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> ago I noticed it paying off since I only got punted once in a Marty race > where noobs tend to drive HARD into the corners and rear end the guys that > actually know how to get around the place.(The line there must have been > showing them 'Hey, lift early, brake straight, then corner...) Leave it be > for the learners, turn it off if you don't like it. > >

Yep. Because they failed to adapt. Others took their place. -John "Spazz" <[email hidden]?> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:00:30 -0600, "John Pancoast"<[email hidden]> wrote: > > >.be nice to developers or flight sims will go > >away..........been hearing that bs for fourteen years nowmyself.........as

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> >flight sims keep getting churned out year after year. > > Microprose/Spectrum Holobyte, Dynamix, iMagic, Janes, DiD, > Digital Integration etc., etc., no longer "churn out" hardcore > flightsims, since they're out of business. > >

True enough. Of course, also true is the fact that the Martinsville pace bug that existed in N4 BEFORE it was patched, exists now in N2002. Doesn't speak of polished to me. Marty is unraceable at this point, especially online. Don't get me wrong; I think Papy's great, have every title they've made. I think N2002 is great. But finished, great quality control ? Hmmm.....don't know about that. Also, wasn't the GPL 3d patch made "off-time" by the guys, not supported, etc.(not their idea) by Papy/Sierra at all ? Could be mistaken, but I believe that's how it went. I'd have to say flight simmers hold the whine title myself :) -John "P.C. Oxford" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rsZw8.40804$[email hidden]...

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> > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > I stand by these observations: > > 1- NASCAR 2002 is the best selling, most state of the art racing sim out > there. For now. And they provide free servers. > 2- It's good because the developpers are racers themselves and they listen > to their core audience. Papyrus proved its dedication to the sim community > by releasing a 3D patch for GPL long after that title had disappeared from > store shelves. They're good guys. > 3- Racing the AI is for timid souls or those cursed with poor internet > connections. > 4- I've hung around some of the flight sim forums, the RPG forums, the > wargame forums and nobody does more carping, kvetching, and niggling than > auto simmers. Remark, this might be good for the hobby if it spurs the > developpers on to ever greater efforts. Personally, I couldn't take it. > 5- If you can compare it to other software out there what ARE we to

compare

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> it to? EA's F2001 is in its 3rd iteration and has more 'issues' than N2K2. > > Just my opinion. Of course. > Cheers, > -Peter > > > > > > > >

He also said "Or give the server boss that option." Which I think is every bit as reasonable as giving the server boss the option to force cockpit view or force smoke. "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Exactly. It doesn't give an unfair advantage, so don't know why itshould

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> be banned. > > -John > > > "Admin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Dq%w8.75933$[email hidden]... > > > > John Pancoast <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Yep. Forcing non-use of the driving line ? Who cares if

someone uses

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> > it > > > ? A bit on the extreme side IMO. > > > > > > -John > > > > > > > > > > I agree John, especially when racing with noobs. It shows them where

one > is > > generally going to lift, brake and get back into the gas. A coupleof > weeks > > ago I noticed it paying off since I only got punted once in a Martyrace > > where noobs tend to drive HARD into the corners and rear end theguys that > > actually know how to get around the place.(The line there must havebeen > > showing them 'Hey, lift early, brake straight, then corner...) Leaveit be > > for the learners, turn it off if you don't like it. > > > > > >

"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I'd have to say flight simmers hold the whine title myself :) > > -John >You might be right about that. I don' know that much about flight sims. I tried to get into IL- Sturmovik due the buzz that game generated, but couldn't. Just not my cup of meat. I admired it more than enjoyed it. However, their support and customer interaction, featuring regular updates and frequent posts by Oleg Maddox, the designer, were impressive. After a while, one suspects it's the designer/developper/end user dialogue that matters most. A rapport I found missing in EA's titles- among other offenders. -Peter

Well, someone turning off smoke when others don't is an unfair advantage. Fwiw, still don't see why a boss or anyone would need control over the line feature. -John "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aa26an$76qso$[email hidden]...

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> He also said "Or give the server boss that option." Which I think is > every bit as reasonable as giving the server boss the option to force > cockpit view or force smoke. > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Exactly. It doesn't give an unfair advantage, so don't know why it > should > > be banned. > > > > -John > > > > > > "Admin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:Dq%w8.75933$[email hidden]... > > > > > > John Pancoast <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Yep. Forcing non-use of the driving line ? Who cares if > someone uses > > > it > > > > ? A bit on the extreme side IMO. > > > > > > > > -John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree John, especially when racing with noobs. It shows them where > one > > is > > > generally going to lift, brake and get back into the gas. A couple > of > > weeks > > > ago I noticed it paying off since I only got punted once in a Marty > race > > > where noobs tend to drive HARD into the corners and rear end the > guys that > > > actually know how to get around the place.(The line there must have > been > > > showing them 'Hey, lift early, brake straight, then corner...) Leave > it be > > > for the learners, turn it off if you don't like it. > > > > > > > > > > >

Haqsau <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aa26an$76qso$[email hidden]... > He also said "Or give the server boss that option." Which I think is > every bit as reasonable as giving the server boss the option to force > cockpit view or force smoke. > > OH NO! He didn't just start the "Forced cockpit view" thread again did he? LOL!! I don't force either in my league, though I myself run cockpit and smoke. I don't force cockpit so guys can see to get to the pits when the hood is lopped over their windsheild, and I don't force smoke for the guys trying to run the sim on Pentium 2's with Voodoo3's. I would not turn off the driving line either, I'd like the guys I race with to be able to learn the line and the driving line (from using it on the new tracks) appears to be a aptly named 'ideal' line to learn. Put more than a day into learning how to 'race' with this sim and you'll know that the ideal line is not always the way to go in traffic, but outside of traffic is a good line to run and be consistent. Just IMO, but I encourage its use for my league members that have gotten NR2002 as their FIRST racing sim. Otherwise, we'd have more yellows than we already do....must be working, we only had 2 yellers in a 76 lapper at Dega last week and one of those was caused by a server burp...and the Marty example, I only got punted once. Normally a bunch of SS racers that join the league have no clue how to get around shorties correctly and ram the vets from behind entering the corners, so it's not so bad since the advent of the driving line aid. Of course we still run paceless, yellowless road course races though. There's only so much a driving line aid CAN do, LOL!!

John Pancoast <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > True enough. Of course, also true is the fact that the Martinsvillepace > bug that existed in N4 BEFORE it was patched, exists now in N2002.Doesn't > speak of polished to me. Marty is unraceable at this point, especially > online.<SNIP> True. We had to restart our league race there and run 175 laps without cautions. Went by pretty fast at least :) They need to park the pace car further down the back stretch or tighten the code. It all has to do with where the leader is when the yellow comes out and how badly the pace car wants to catch the leader and get in front of him...Our Marty race started out even weirder than that, waved off the green/start, pace car pitted, came back on the track, picked up the leader and went green next time by...of course the first yellow saw the pace car ripping through the field at around 150mph. We had guys in the fence, on top of the pit walls, it was hilarious. Unfortunatley, we probably won't race their again until next year and NR2002 will be replaced by N5 or 2003. Seems to be a self perpetuating problem...it would be nice to get in a full Marty race with cautions so more guys could finish on the lead lap tho.

Lol, me too re IL-2.......just couldn't get into it, but it's a great sim. Very true about Maddox, good points. -John "P.C. Oxford" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rh1x8.40826$[email hidden]...

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> > > > You might be right about that. I don' know that much about flight sims. I > tried to get into IL- Sturmovik due the buzz that game generated, but > couldn't. Just not my cup of meat. I admired it more than enjoyed it. > However, their support and customer interaction, featuring regular updates > and frequent posts by Oleg Maddox, the designer, were impressive. After a > while, one suspects it's the designer/developper/end user dialogue that > matters most. A rapport I found missing in EA's titles- among other > offenders. > > -Peter > > >

Exactly, looks like the chariot scene from Ben-Hur :) -John "Admin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Hs1x8.76880$[email hidden]...

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> > John Pancoast <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > True enough. Of course, also true is the fact that the Martinsville > pace > > bug that existed in N4 BEFORE it was patched, exists now in N2002. > Doesn't > > speak of polished to me. Marty is unraceable at this point, especially > > online. > <SNIP> > > True. We had to restart our league race there and run 175 laps without > cautions. Went by pretty fast at least :) They need to park the pace car > further down the back stretch or tighten the code. It all has to do with > where the leader is when the yellow comes out and how badly the pace car > wants to catch the leader and get in front of him...Our Marty race started > out even weirder than that, waved off the green/start, pace car pitted,

came > back on the track, picked up the leader and went green next time by...of > course the first yellow saw the pace car ripping through the field ataround > 150mph. We had guys in the fence, on top of the pit walls, it washilarious. > Unfortunatley, we probably won't race their again until next year andNR2002 > will be replaced by N5 or 2003. Seems to be a self perpetuatingproblem...it > would be nice to get in a full Marty race with cautions so more guys could > finish on the lead lap tho. > >

Key word is MADE. Didn't keep MAKING. Point is, so what if they went under ? Others took their place, and flight sims continue, as they always will, irregardless of the "sky is falling" advocates. -John "Spazz" <[email hidden]?> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 17:13:15 -0600, "John Pancoast"<[email hidden]> wrote:

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> > > Yep. Because they failed to adapt. Others took their place. > > > >-John > > > > Failed to adapt to what, exactly? > > They made the best hardcore flightsims ever. > > >"Spazz" <[email hidden]?> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:00:30 -0600, "John Pancoast" > ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >> > >> >.be nice to developers or flight sims will go > >> >away..........been hearing that bs for fourteen years now > >myself.........as > >> >flight sims keep getting churned out year after year. > >> > >> Microprose/Spectrum Holobyte, Dynamix, iMagic, Janes, DiD, > >> Digital Integration etc., etc., no longer "churn out" hardcore > >> flightsims, since they're out of business. > >> > >> > > > >

In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> writes: > Well, someone turning off smoke when others don't is an unfair advantage. How is that? If someone needs to turn off the smoke to get good framerates, how is that an advantage? The people with stronger systems don't get the slowdown that the slower systems get. Also, I'd say that having the smoke ON is an advantage, as you get a bit more warning for an incident up ahead... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Because those with smoke have to drive into/through it in a wreck, while those without have a clear view of what's going on ahead/around them. -John "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > Well, someone turning off smoke when others don't is an unfairadvantage. > > How is that? If someone needs to turn off the smoke to get goodframerates, > how is that an advantage? The people with stronger systems don't get the > slowdown that the slower systems get. Also, I'd say that having the smokeON > is an advantage, as you get a bit more warning for an incident up ahead... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research tocure > breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a > donation. Thank you. > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Having the smoke on gives an advantage of spotting upcoming trouble sooner, but you can't see squat when you get into it, so to me its a give and take situation...As this post is clearly showing, everyone has their own pet peeves for features they want to see in the patch, I would hate to be the commitee, etc that had to decide what they implement and what they don't. You'll never make more than half of the people happy half the time....or something like that..yeah thats it...lol -- Biz "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and the....." - Ash EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > Well, someone turning off smoke when others don't is an unfair advantage. > > How is that? If someone needs to turn off the smoke to get good framerates, > how is that an advantage? The people with stronger systems don't get the > slowdown that the slower systems get. Also, I'd say that having the smoke ON > is an advantage, as you get a bit more warning for an incident up ahead... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure > breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a > donation. Thank you. > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Actually IMO, if you have been following a thread, top-posting allows you to quickly read the new content, without having to wade through some of the posts you've already read..... -- Biz "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and the....." - Ash Spazz <mailto:[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:04:38 -0600, "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > Key word is MADE. Didn't keep MAKING. Point is, so what if they went > >under ? Others took their place, and flight sims continue, as they always > >will, irregardless of the "sky is falling" advocates. > > > >-John > > > > > > Wrong. > > There has been *no* substitute for Microprose Falcon 4 or > Dynamix' Red Baron*, or Jane's F15/F18, or DiD's EF2000. > No hard feelings, sir, but you don't seem to have much > knowledge at all of hardcore flightsims. > > Also, top-posting is bad for the readability of a thread. > Just a tip. > > >"Spazz" <[email hidden]?> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 17:13:15 -0600, "John Pancoast" > ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >> > >> > Yep. Because they failed to adapt. Others took their place. > >> > > >> >-John > >> > > >> > >> Failed to adapt to what, exactly? > >> > >> They made the best hardcore flightsims ever. > >> > >> >"Spazz" <[email hidden]?> wrote in message > >> >news:[email hidden]... > >> >> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:00:30 -0600, "John Pancoast" > >> ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >.be nice to developers or flight sims will go > >> >> >away..........been hearing that bs for fourteen years now > >> >myself.........as > >> >> >flight sims keep getting churned out year after year. > >> >> > >> >> Microprose/Spectrum Holobyte, Dynamix, iMagic, Janes, DiD, > >> >> Digital Integration etc., etc., no longer "churn out" hardcore > >> >> flightsims, since they're out of business. > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >

lol, actually, I do........since 1988, I do, including all the titles you mention. And I've heard the same thing every year since then about the death of hardcore flight sims.......just as the same old cry is now taking place. But whatever, it's not really worth arguing about, eh ? -John "Spazz" <[email hidden]?> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:04:38 -0600, "John Pancoast"<[email hidden]> wrote: > > > Key word is MADE. Didn't keep MAKING. Point is, so what if they went > >under ? Others took their place, and flight sims continue, as theyalways

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> >will, irregardless of the "sky is falling" advocates. > > > >-John > > > > > > Wrong. > > There has been *no* substitute for Microprose Falcon 4 or > Dynamix' Red Baron*, or Jane's F15/F18, or DiD's EF2000. > No hard feelings, sir, but you don't seem to have much > knowledge at all of hardcore flightsims. > > Also, top-posting is bad for the readability of a thread. > Just a tip. > > >"Spazz" <[email hidden]?> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 17:13:15 -0600, "John Pancoast" > ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >> > >> > Yep. Because they failed to adapt. Others took their place. > >> > > >> >-John > >> > > >> > >> Failed to adapt to what, exactly? > >> > >> They made the best hardcore flightsims ever. > >> > >> >"Spazz" <[email hidden]?> wrote in message > >> >news:[email hidden]... > >> >> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:00:30 -0600, "John Pancoast" > >> ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >.be nice to developers or flight sims will go > >> >> >away..........been hearing that bs for fourteen years now > >> >myself.........as > >> >> >flight sims keep getting churned out year after year. > >> >> > >> >> Microprose/Spectrum Holobyte, Dynamix, iMagic, Janes, DiD, > >> >> Digital Integration etc., etc., no longer "churn out" hardcore > >> >> flightsims, since they're out of business. > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >

That's what I always thought too, but guess not<G> -John "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:eg5x8.41337$[email hidden]... > Actually IMO, if you have been following a thread, top-posting allows youto quickly read the new > content, without having to wade through some of the posts you've alreadyread.....

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> -- > Biz > > "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand > alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and > the....." - Ash > > > Spazz <mailto:[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]... > > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:04:38 -0600, "John Pancoast"<[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > Key word is MADE. Didn't keep MAKING. Point is, so what if theywent > > >under ? Others took their place, and flight sims continue, as theyalways

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> > >will, irregardless of the "sky is falling" advocates. > > > > > >-John > > > > > > > > > > Wrong. > > > > There has been *no* substitute for Microprose Falcon 4 or > > Dynamix' Red Baron*, or Jane's F15/F18, or DiD's EF2000. > > No hard feelings, sir, but you don't seem to have much > > knowledge at all of hardcore flightsims. > > > > Also, top-posting is bad for the readability of a thread. > > Just a tip. > > > > >"Spazz" <[email hidden]?> wrote in message > > >news:[email hidden]... > > >> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 17:13:15 -0600, "John Pancoast" > > ><[email hidden]> wrote: > > >> > > >> > Yep. Because they failed to adapt. Others took their place. > > >> > > > >> >-John > > >> > > > >> > > >> Failed to adapt to what, exactly? > > >> > > >> They made the best hardcore flightsims ever. > > >> > > >> >"Spazz" <[email hidden]?> wrote in message > > >> >news:[email hidden]... > > >> >> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:00:30 -0600, "John Pancoast" > > >> ><[email hidden]> wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> >.be nice to developers or flight sims will go > > >> >> >away..........been hearing that bs for fourteen years now > > >> >myself.........as > > >> >> >flight sims keep getting churned out year after year. > > >> >> > > >> >> Microprose/Spectrum Holobyte, Dynamix, iMagic, Janes, DiD, > > >> >> Digital Integration etc., etc., no longer "churn out" hardcore > > >> >> flightsims, since they're out of business. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >

No kidding, rock and a hard place there :) -John "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Ae5x8.41336$[email hidden]... > Having the smoke on gives an advantage of spotting upcoming troublesooner, but you can't see squat > when you get into it, so to me its a give and take situation...As thispost is clearly showing, > everyone has their own pet peeves for features they want to see in thepatch, I would hate to be the > commitee, etc that had to decide what they implement and what they don't.You'll never make more > than half of the people happy half the time....or something likethat..yeah thats it...lol

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> -- > Biz > > "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand > alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and > the....." - Ash > > > EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > > Well, someone turning off smoke when others don't is an unfair

advantage. > > > > How is that? If someone needs to turn off the smoke to get goodframerates, > > how is that an advantage? The people with stronger systems don't getthe > > slowdown that the slower systems get. Also, I'd say that having thesmoke ON > > is an advantage, as you get a bit more warning for an incident upahead... > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for researchto cure > > breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to makea > > donation. Thank you. > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > >

"Biz" <[email hidden]> writes: > Actually IMO, if you have been following a thread, top-posting allows you to quickly read the new > content, without having to wade through some of the posts you've already read..... From the F1 newsgroup: "Absolutely no!" "Can I top post?" Top posting is only for people who can't find the "Delete" button, IMHO :) -- Olav Malmin remove .spam when replying

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > Well, someone turning off smoke when others don't is an unfair advantage. > > How is that? If someone needs to turn off the smoke to get good framerates, > how is that an advantage? The people with stronger systems don't get the > slowdown that the slower systems get. Also, I'd say that having the smoke ON > is an advantage, as you get a bit more warning for an incident up ahead... >

I wonder how many guys that have 200 LPI have smoke turned on... The smoke is what gets ya - you can't see through it and you poick the best line you can and poke through, hoping some over-zealous moron doesn't run up onto your decklid in the process. Forcing ANYTHING on is a mistake if you're after safety in online races. The realism stuff is cool, but it's not exactly conducive to safety in OUR environment. -- ========================================================= DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Smoke off can be an advantage at Sears where everybody cuts across the grass a lot, or where there are many offs. The clouds can be so dense and large that they prevent you from seeing the track, and it can be quite difficult to keep it on the track while racing through one of the larger ones without seeing the track anymore. Also they conceal of course cars parked behind the cloud, which forces you to try an drive more carefully (sometimes doesn't help much either). Clouds probably also cause screen stutters on many systems. Therefor, I'd say smoke off overall is an advantage and can make it a little easier. Achim "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > Well, someone turning off smoke when others don't is an unfairadvantage. > > How is that? If someone needs to turn off the smoke to get goodframerates, > how is that an advantage? The people with stronger systems don't get the > slowdown that the slower systems get. Also, I'd say that having the smokeON > is an advantage, as you get a bit more warning for an incident up ahead......

Biz wrote: > Actually IMO, if you have been following a thread, top-posting allows you to quickly read the new > content, without having to wade through some of the posts you've already read..... > -- > Biz http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting - Quoting Style -- Fester Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8) -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02

Phew, thanks for clearing that up.........for a minute there, I felt the world quit turning :) -John "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Biz wrote: > > Actually IMO, if you have been following a thread, top-posting allowsyou to quickly read the new > > content, without having to wade through some of the posts you've alreadyread.....

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> > -- > > Biz > > > http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting - Quoting Style > > > -- > > Fester > > Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8) > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02 >

Ever heard of 'backing off' ? ;-) Forcing this is the only way to do it in my book... it's mopre fair and I'd even go as far as clim it's even safer.... 'cause it gives everyone the same limitation. -- ed_ "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> skrev i melding news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > > Well, someone turning off smoke when others don't is an unfair advantage. > > > > How is that? If someone needs to turn off the smoke to get good framerates, > > how is that an advantage? The people with stronger systems don't get the > > slowdown that the slower systems get. Also, I'd say that having the smoke ON > > is an advantage, as you get a bit more warning for an incident up ahead... > > > > I wonder how many guys that have 200 LPI have smoke turned on... > > The smoke is what gets ya - you can't see through it and you poick the > best line you can and poke through, hoping some over-zealous moron > doesn't run up onto your decklid in the process. > > Forcing ANYTHING on is a mistake if you're after safety in online races. > The realism stuff is cool, but it's not exactly conducive to safety in > OUR environment. > > -- > ========================================================= > DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 > RASCAR Roster > http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar > Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" > http://www.paddedwall.org/john > Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting) > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > =========================================================

In article <[email hidden]>, Olav Malmin <[email hidden]> writes:

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>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: > >> Is there any way to have our lpi reset other than using a new name? >> >> As I said in another thread, my lpi is at 30, but only because I ran in so >> many SS pick up races after the game was released and before we got things >> organized here at r.a.s. with the RASCAR races. I've only had four >incidents >> in the 10 RASCAR races we've run (one my fault) and would probably have an >> lpi of about 200 if I had used a new user name when we started them. I >don't >> want to be locked out of any races when the patch is released. > >Good point David. There should have been a history dimention to the >lpi aswell. Like calculate the lpi on the last 30 races or something >like that. Drivers improve, but the lpi don't reflect that. >

They MIGHT give people an opportunity to reset stats to reflect the current racing environment(after the patch). If they weren't - Eric? Randy? Ya listening...?<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Okei.... seems like the dyslexia is getting worse every day.... let me try and bring some sense into this: Ever heard of 'backing off' ? ;-) Forcing this is the only way to do it in my book... it's MORE fair and I'd even go as far AND CLAIM it's even safer.... 'cause it gives everyone the same LIMITATIONS. There! :-) -- ed_

OMG that is hilarious. Not only is this a matter of personal choice, it is a trivial issue. Not worth arguing about, and certainly not worth either writing or reading a long and boring article about. I will throw in this comment - with any modern newsreader the most efficient way to follow a conversation is to have the newsreader organize the postings into threads (often the default anyway), at which point all that quoted text is nearly useless. And when you are just reading the newest post in a thread that is several days old, the quickest way to find the new comments is if they are top posted. Sorry, but I am sick and tired of people trying to impose trivial and meaningless rules on my life. If I want to top post I will. I appreciate it when other people top post, because it fits in with the way I use my newsreader. And anybody who thinks they have the right to tell me how to use my newsreader can go f*ck themselves. In fact I'm sure they do quite often. BTW that was not directed at you personally Fester, it's just that that article touched a nerve. "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Biz wrote: > > Actually IMO, if you have been following a thread, top-postingallows you to quickly read the new > > content, without having to wade through some of the posts you'vealready read.....

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> > -- > > Biz > > > http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting - Quoting Style > > > -- > > Fester > > Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8) > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02 >

Couldn't agree more, thanks for putting into words what I felt too. Funniest thing was, Spazz pointed it out to me as a "tip"..........but isn't posting under a pseudonym such as Spazz breaking the Holy Covenant of ng posting too ? <VBG> Anyway, great points you make. -John "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aa4osu$807ni$[email hidden]...

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> OMG that is hilarious. Not only is this a matter of personal choice, it > is a trivial issue. Not worth arguing about, and certainly not worth > either writing or reading a long and boring article about. I will throw > in this comment - with any modern newsreader the most efficient way to > follow a conversation is to have the newsreader organize the postings > into threads (often the default anyway), at which point all that quoted > text is nearly useless. And when you are just reading the newest post > in a thread that is several days old, the quickest way to find the new > comments is if they are top posted. > > Sorry, but I am sick and tired of people trying to impose trivial and > meaningless rules on my life. If I want to top post I will. I > appreciate it when other people top post, because it fits in with the > way I use my newsreader. And anybody who thinks they have the right to > tell me how to use my newsreader can go f*ck themselves. In fact I'm > sure they do quite often. > > BTW that was not directed at you personally Fester, it's just that that > article touched a nerve. > > > "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Biz wrote: > > > Actually IMO, if you have been following a thread, top-posting > allows you to quickly read the new > > > content, without having to wade through some of the posts you've > already read..... > > > -- > > > Biz > > > > > > http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting - Quoting Style > > > > > > -- > > > > Fester > > > > Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8) > > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02 > > >

Hi Eldred, anyone can reset their stats by simply creating a new login name for Sierra.com. Why not leave the decision to everyone individually? Achim "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, Olav Malmin > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: > > > >> Is there any way to have our lpi reset other than using a new name? > >> > >> As I said in another thread, my lpi is at 30, but only because I ran in

so > >> many SS pick up races after the game was released and before we gotthings > >> organized here at r.a.s. with the RASCAR races. I've only had four > >incidents > >> in the 10 RASCAR races we've run (one my fault) and would probably havean

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> >> lpi of about 200 if I had used a new user name when we started them. I > >don't > >> want to be locked out of any races when the patch is released. > > > >Good point David. There should have been a history dimention to the > >lpi aswell. Like calculate the lpi on the last 30 races or something > >like that. Drivers improve, but the lpi don't reflect that. > > > > They MIGHT give people an opportunity to reset stats to reflect the

current > racing environment(after the patch). If they weren't - Eric? Randy? Ya > listening...?<g> > > Eldred...

Well on review I think I could have phrased it a little less emotionally. ;o) Sorry if I offended anybody. It certainly wasn't an attack on Fester or Spazz or anybody else, it's just that article got me a little excited. <sigh> Maybe it's time to cut back on the caffeine.... :o( "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Couldn't agree more, thanks for putting into words what I felt too. > Funniest thing was, Spazz pointed it out to me as a "tip"..........butisn't > posting under a pseudonym such as Spazz breaking the Holy Covenant ofng > posting too ? <VBG> > > Anyway, great points you make. > > -John >

"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aa54nq$7m462$[email hidden]... > Well on review I think I could have phrased it a little less > emotionally. ;o) Sorry if I offended anybody. It certainly wasn't an > attack on Fester or Spazz or anybody else, it's just that article got me > a little excited. <sigh> Maybe it's time to cut back on the > caffeine.... :o( Does this thread mean that posting in the middle is bad form? dave <?> henrie

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> > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Couldn't agree more, thanks for putting into words what I felt too. > > Funniest thing was, Spazz pointed it out to me as a "tip"..........but > isn't > > posting under a pseudonym such as Spazz breaking the Holy Covenant of > ng > > posting too ? <VBG> > > > > Anyway, great points you make. > > > > -John > > > >

Dave Henrie wrote:

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> "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:aa54nq$7m462$[email hidden]... > >>Well on review I think I could have phrased it a little less >>emotionally. ;o) Sorry if I offended anybody. It certainly wasn't an >>attack on Fester or Spazz or anybody else, it's just that article got me >>a little excited. <sigh> Maybe it's time to cut back on the >>caffeine.... :o( > > > Does this thread mean that posting in the middle is bad form? > dave <?> henrie

That's interleaved. Perfectly acceptable for keeping a conversational flow to the post. :-) -- Fester Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8) -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02

John Pancoast wrote: > Couldn't agree more, thanks for putting into words what I felt too. > Funniest thing was, Spazz pointed it out to me as a "tip"..........but isn't > posting under a pseudonym such as Spazz breaking the Holy Covenant of ng > posting too ? <VBG> > > Anyway, great points you make. If this is too restrictive for you & causes so much stress, steer clear of the Linux/Unix NG's. ;-) -- Fester Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8) -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02

Lol, very true. -John p.s. I'm with Haqsau, comments weren't directed at you :) "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > John Pancoast wrote: > > Couldn't agree more, thanks for putting into words what I felt too. > > Funniest thing was, Spazz pointed it out to me as a "tip"..........butisn't

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> > posting under a pseudonym such as Spazz breaking the Holy Covenant of ng > > posting too ? <VBG> > > > > Anyway, great points you make. > > > > If this is too restrictive for you & causes so much stress, steer clear > of the Linux/Unix NG's. ;-) > > > -- > > Fester > > Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8) > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02 >

John Pancoast wrote: > Lol, very true. > > -John > > p.s. I'm with Haqsau, comments weren't directed at you :) Np guys. Just trying to help. :-) -- Fester Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8) -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02

[email hidden] (EldredP) writes:

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> In article <[email hidden]>, Olav Malmin > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: > > > >> Is there any way to have our lpi reset other than using a new name? > >> > >> As I said in another thread, my lpi is at 30, but only because I ran in so > >> many SS pick up races after the game was released and before we got things > >> organized here at r.a.s. with the RASCAR races. I've only had four > >incidents > >> in the 10 RASCAR races we've run (one my fault) and would probably have an > >> lpi of about 200 if I had used a new user name when we started them. I > >don't > >> want to be locked out of any races when the patch is released. > > > >Good point David. There should have been a history dimention to the > >lpi aswell. Like calculate the lpi on the last 30 races or something > >like that. Drivers improve, but the lpi don't reflect that. > > > > They MIGHT give people an opportunity to reset stats to reflect the current > racing environment(after the patch). If they weren't - Eric? Randy? Ya > listening...?<g>

So for every time i'm really unlucky with the guys I race (like yesterday when this guy i rad two wide with suddenly steered right into me, and blamed me afterwards) I have to create a new login ? There must be a better way ? :) -- Olav Malmin remove .spam when replying

Hey Spazz, you go by the name of Ed Bain, rrevved ? Seem to remember this pseudo on the flight-sim ng........ -John "Spazz" <[email hidden]?> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:57:56 -0400, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]>wrote:

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> > >Sorry, but I am sick and tired of people trying to impose trivial and > >meaningless rules on my life. If I want to top post I will. > > *plonk* > >

In article <[email hidden]>, Spazz <[email hidden]?> writes: >On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:57:56 -0400, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Sorry, but I am sick and tired of people trying to impose trivial and >>meaningless rules on my life. If I want to top post I will. > >*plonk* And so, you missed his apology... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <aa2u6u$7a5ah$[email hidden]>, "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> writes: >Clouds probably also cause screen stutters on many systems. Therefor, I'd >say smoke off overall is an advantage and can make it a little easier. > Smoke DOES cause stutters at times. That's why I'm against the forced smoke option. You're penalizing people with slower systems... I understand what the others are saying, though. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <aa4m9f$7rtdu$[email hidden]>, "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> writes: >Hi Eldred, > >anyone can reset their stats by simply creating a new login name for >Sierra.com. Why not leave the decision to everyone individually? That's fine, but here are two points. 1. Some people have nicknames that they've been using for years. To have to change that just to reset their stats would suck. 2. I seem to remember that the last time Sierra changed the stats, they reset everything automatically. Maybe if they could let people reset the stats on their *existing* ID without having to change it? But then, if someone wrecks in a bunch of pickup races, they could reset the LPI, then say "Hey, I'm new"... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

writes: >>Sorry, but I am sick and tired of people trying to impose trivial and >>meaningless rules on my life. If I want to top post I will. >*plonk* And so, you missed his apology... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure *** cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> writes: > Because those with smoke have to drive into/through it in a wreck, while >those without have a clear view of what's going on ahead/around them. Doh! Um, nevermind... I turned off the smoke to get better frame rate, so I forgot about that. In past N# games, you could still see THROUGH the smoke, so that wasn't an issue... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Mark) writes: >I don't want to risk other people's fun getting online until I have a >PC that's more up to the task (it pains me to be missing out on >RASCAR), but once I do, am I even going to be able to get started? > >With wreckers locked out, will newbies have a chance? I'd guess that there will be a need for semi-closed servers, such as mine. Open enough to let a certain group access(like RAS), but passworded so that all the wreckers can't get in... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, "Kevin" <[email hidden]> writes: >> 1- Suppress the Ideal Racing Line in races. Or give the server boss that >> option. It detracts from the old Immersion Factor. I know Kevin didn't write this, but how does someone someone using the racing line on THEIR computer affect anyone else's Immersion Factor...? Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <NaSw8.46399$[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>"Olav Malmin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> John Simmons <[email hidden]> writes: >>My biggest problem right now is to be antisocial >> enough with my friends to be able to attend the races at all (10 pm >> saturday...) so my saying isn't worth squat at the moment :) >> >> -- >> Olav Malmin >> remove .spam when replying > >Mikkel Gram-Hansen mentioned he would look into supplying a server for >European RASCAR races. Don't know what the status is with that.

I asked what would be a good time for Euros before. I have another W2K system that could be used for them... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

writes: I know Kevin didn't write this, but how does someone someone using the racing line on THEIR computer affect anyone else's Immersion Factor...? Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure *** cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

As long as I don't have to scroll the page you can reply anywhere ;) -- Ian P <email invalid due to spam> "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:U6px8.41722$[email hidden]... > > > Does this thread mean that posting in the middle is bad form? > dave <?> henrie > > > >

Good point, along with Eldred's point about lower systems. -John "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aa6sk0$8a5c5$[email hidden]... > . I'm not in favour of forcing it on, except in league races where it'sconsidered as an additional

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> challenge. > > Achim > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <aa2u6u$7a5ah$[email hidden]>, "Joachim Trensz" > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > >Clouds probably also cause screen stutters on many systems. Therefor,

I'd

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> > >say smoke off overall is an advantage and can make it a little easier. > > > > > > > Smoke DOES cause stutters at times. That's why I'm against the forced > smoke > > option. You're penalizing people with slower systems... I understand > what the > > others are saying, though. > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research

to > cure > > breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to makea > > donation. Thank you. > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > >

I'd agree, forcing smoke on is unfair to everyone not having a top notch system. And it's also risky, for himself and others. I'm not in favour of forcing it on, except in league races where it's considered as an additional challenge. Achim "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <aa2u6u$7a5ah$[email hidden]>, "Joachim Trensz" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Clouds probably also cause screen stutters on many systems. Therefor, I'd > >say smoke off overall is an advantage and can make it a little easier. > > > > Smoke DOES cause stutters at times. That's why I'm against the forced

smoke > option. You're penalizing people with slower systems... I understandwhat the > others are saying, though. > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research tocure > breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a > donation. Thank you. > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.