"Restart" or Not!

There's a string below where something is discussed about restarting races when there's a crash during the start. I had to take a phone call....lost which thread it was, and now I can't find it. So....this "new post" is the result. Sorry for that. **To Restart Or Not** This is my opinion.....based on experience running online for a few years. *League Races: It is never appropriate to restart any race where league championship points are involved. If a league driver is consistent at causing "yellows" during starts (or very early in the race)....then do what NASCAR would do under the same conditions = "park" the driver until he can learn some car control or patience...what ever his/her problem is. *Single Race - Among friends: I think this is a reasonable description of the RASCAR racing going on the last few weeks. I have a group of guys I run this type of races with on Monday nights. We have a standing rule: If a yellow comes out in the first few laps of the race...its an automatic restart. Everyone knows this, agrees to it in advance. After all, we are interested in racing each other....not "beating each other".....and you can't race somebody who is out of the race. We usually run 25% races....two or three a night, with the occasional "sprint" race thrown in for fun and grins. We don't restart the sprint races...no matter what. We discovered there was a side benefit to this "automatic restart" rule! That is...nobody wants to be the object of all the chiding and kidding...for causing a yellow on the first lap (or two or three laps)...so we all take extra precaution....! These days, we rarely have yellows early in the race. And, that wasn't the case before we adopted this "restart rule"....so it has to be because of the rule! Maybe this will be helpful? I also think it would be somewhat appropriate for someone like Eldred.....to kind of keep some records about who is causing yellows. If a drivers is consistently causing yellows (any time during the race)....you have to ask that driver....in a friendly way.... to discontinue running in the RASCAR races until they have a little more racing experience. That only makes sense, IMHO. Another "sensitive issue"...is requiring the entrants to the RASCAR races understand the basic "racing rules" of NASCAR racing. This would include things like knowing how to start (or restart) races, pit lane speed limits, pace speed limits (for the track you are running), what the "official" rule and "unofficial" rules are about racing back to the line on a yellow, correct procedure for entering, traversing and exiting pit road, correct use of blend lines, prohibition of "chatting" during the race .......etc., etc. If you don't do these things....and be tough on violators....these RASCAR races will degrade to nothing much better than Sierra.com pickup races. That would be a shame, IMHO. To this end, it probably would make sense for someone to come up with a "standard driver's meeting" form......much like most of the leagues use....for these RASCAR races. It should contain all the same info.....and new guys can quickly see the "rules summary" and the pit/pace speeds for the tracks being run. The "driver's meeting" form can be filled out and posted here each week by Eldred, or one of the other "regulars." This also makes sense, IHHO. (We have one we use I can post here....after converting it to "plain text" from "HTML"...you guys would like?) As much as you guys are wanting to keep this RASCAR racing sort of informal and casual....it still needs to be "organized" or it will quickly degrade to crappy "pickup" races. I think that may be starting to happen already, based on some of the posts from yesterday's race? Regards, Tom PS: I also think some of the senior online drivers who are participating in these RASCAR races need to paid more attention to, with regard to organizational issues, casual rules and procedures. They are experienced online racers and they've been through all this stuff many, many times. They know what works...and what does not work. Also, you are racing NASCAR style races.....this differs from GPL style races in many ways. The differences...and what's expected of you as a driver....needs to be clearly made to all the guys who have been running GPL for many years, and are just now picking up on running NASCAR 2002. Many already know what's going on....a few don't seem to.

Depends on what Ras'ers want, a league with rules, cops and enforcers, or a break from that rigidity and a drive for fun. I have never seen a fun league degrade into pickup madness, but I have seen a few that resulted in some great friendships, a team or two and perhaps the formation of a seperate league. Gavel

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:FbZy8.19215$ao1.7977@rwcrnsc54... > **To Restart Or Not** > > *Single Race - Among friends: I think this is a reasonable description of > the RASCAR racing going on the last few weeks. I have a group of guys Irun > this type of races with on Monday nights. We have a standing rule: If a > yellow comes out in the first few laps of the race...its an automatic > restart. Everyone knows this, agrees to it in advance. After all, we are > interested in racing each other....not "beating each other".....and you > can't race somebody who is out of the race. I'm fine with restarts in the RASCAR races. Ed would of really been screwed if teh race had actually tunred out to be good. I don't remember it being an issue for anybody until yesterday though. > I also think it would be somewhat appropriate for someone likeEldred.....to > kind of keep some records about who is causing yellows. If a drivers is > consistently causing yellows (any time during the race)....you have to ask > that driver....in a friendly way.... to discontinue running in the RASCAR > races until they have a little more racing experience. That only makes > sense, IMHO. Sounds good, as long as it is done in a friendly way as you said. > Another "sensitive issue"...is requiring the entrants to the RASCAR races > understand the basic "racing rules" of NASCAR racing. This would include > things like knowing how to start (or restart) races, pit lane speedlimits, > pace speed limits (for the track you are running), what the "official"rule > and "unofficial" rules are about racing back to the line on a yellow, > correct procedure for entering, traversing and exiting pit road, correctuse > of blend lines, prohibition of "chatting" during the race .......etc.,etc. > If you don't do these things....and be tough on violators....these RASCAR > races will degrade to nothing much better than Sierra.com pickup races. > That would be a shame, IMHO. So far it hasn't been a problem but it could in the future as more people start joining in. Sounds like another good idea. > To this end, it probably would make sense for someone to come up with a > "standard driver's meeting" form......We have one we use I can posthere....after converting it to > "plain text" from "HTML"...you guys would like?) I'd like. > As much as you guys are wanting to keep this RASCAR racing sort ofinformal > and casual....it still needs to be "organized" or it will quickly degradeto > crappy "pickup" races. I think that may be starting to happen already, > based on some of the posts from yesterday's race? I don't think it's happening already at all, but if more drivers join in than it could possibly happen in the future. As I said in the "RASCAR Reminder" thread, we've only had two races out of 12 that have had any problems. The others have been very, very clean. Just last week we did about 160 laps at Rockingham and California and only had a few yellows (two caused by warp if I remember correctly). Yesterday (nothing new for Talladega) and Pocono were the exceptions, not the rule.........so far. Bad news makes headlines though, so I hope we all remember how good most of the RASCAR racing has been. David G Fisher

I have no problem with restarts as long as everyone agrees that they want to do it that way. My question was why, since there was only one person that wanted the restart and no one else said anything about it. Being Talladega, chances are it would happen again on the restart and we could end up all afternoon restarting. It turned out to be a very long race as it was and I was unable to race the Homestead race because of it. I don't and probably won't get that much of a chance to race on saturday afternoons but it looks like the makings of some great racing. Tally and Daytona are never a good indication of how good a league can be. -- Mike Grandy www.precision-racing.com "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1G_y8.163130$[email hidden]... > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:FbZy8.19215$ao1.7977@rwcrnsc54... > > **To Restart Or Not** > > > > *Single Race - Among friends: I think this is a reasonable description of > > the RASCAR racing going on the last few weeks. I have a group of guys I > run > > this type of races with on Monday nights. We have a standing rule: If a > > yellow comes out in the first few laps of the race...its an automatic > > restart. Everyone knows this, agrees to it in advance. After all, we are > > interested in racing each other....not "beating each other".....and you > > can't race somebody who is out of the race. > > I'm fine with restarts in the RASCAR races. Ed would of really been screwed > if teh race had actually tunred out to be good. I don't remember it being an > issue for anybody until yesterday though. > > > I also think it would be somewhat appropriate for someone like > Eldred.....to > > kind of keep some records about who is causing yellows. If a drivers is > > consistently causing yellows (any time during the race)....you have to ask > > that driver....in a friendly way.... to discontinue running in the RASCAR > > races until they have a little more racing experience. That only makes > > sense, IMHO. > > Sounds good, as long as it is done in a friendly way as you said. > > > Another "sensitive issue"...is requiring the entrants to the RASCAR races > > understand the basic "racing rules" of NASCAR racing. This would include > > things like knowing how to start (or restart) races, pit lane speed > limits, > > pace speed limits (for the track you are running), what the "official" > rule > > and "unofficial" rules are about racing back to the line on a yellow, > > correct procedure for entering, traversing and exiting pit road, correct > use > > of blend lines, prohibition of "chatting" during the race .......etc., > etc. > > If you don't do these things....and be tough on violators....these RASCAR > > races will degrade to nothing much better than Sierra.com pickup races. > > That would be a shame, IMHO. > > So far it hasn't been a problem but it could in the future as more people > start joining in. Sounds like another good idea. > > > To this end, it probably would make sense for someone to come up with a > > "standard driver's meeting" form......We have one we use I can post > here....after converting it to > > "plain text" from "HTML"...you guys would like?) > > I'd like. > > > As much as you guys are wanting to keep this RASCAR racing sort of > informal > > and casual....it still needs to be "organized" or it will quickly degrade > to > > crappy "pickup" races. I think that may be starting to happen already, > > based on some of the posts from yesterday's race? > > I don't think it's happening already at all, but if more drivers join in > than it could possibly happen in the future. As I said in the "RASCAR > Reminder" thread, we've only had two races out of 12 that have had any > problems. The others have been very, very clean. Just last week we did about > 160 laps at Rockingham and California and only had a few yellows (two caused > by warp if I remember correctly). Yesterday (nothing new for Talladega) and > Pocono were the exceptions, not the rule.........so far. Bad news makes > headlines though, so I hope we all remember how good most of the RASCAR > racing has been. > > David G Fisher > >

I've never seen a "fun league" that was completely devoid of agreed-in-advance rules and procedures! TP "Gavel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Depends on what Ras'ers want, a league with rules, cops and enforcers,or > a break from that rigidity and a drive for fun. > I have never seen a fun league degrade into pickup madness, but Ihave > seen a few that resulted in some great friendships, a team or two and > perhaps the formation of a seperate league. > Gavel > >

Gentlemen's agreements, yes. Appointed enforcers and blend line watchers, no. Staggering on yellows , no racing back to line on yellow until 10 to go, mandatory pit, these are things that are often decided on the fly ; just like when we were kids and decided that the tree was out of bounds, the neighbors fence was the boundary. Casual, fun, subject to change because points don't matter. Gavel "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zcez8.161951$G72.89078@sccrnsc01... > I've never seen a "fun league" that was completely devoid of > agreed-in-advance rules and procedures! > > TP >

"Appointed enforcers and blend line watchers"....those are your words, Gavel. No one else is suggesting that. I agree with the rest of your post.....only that the "gentlemen's agreements" be decided/agreed upon in advance, and posted in some organized way so everyone joining the RASCAR race on Saturday has a reasonable opportunity to know about them....and follow them. Certainly you are not suggesting that during the practice session, we conduct a "driver's meeting on-the-fly" via in-car chat, or something as ridiculous as that....are you? Tom <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Gentlemen's agreements, yes. Appointed enforcers and blend line > watchers, no. > Staggering on yellows , no racing back to line on yellow until 10to > go, mandatory pit, these are things that are often decided on the fly ;just

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> like when we were kids and decided that the tree was out of bounds, the > neighbors fence was the boundary. Casual, fun, subject to change because > points don't matter. > Gavel > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:zcez8.161951$G72.89078@sccrnsc01... > > I've never seen a "fun league" that was completely devoid of > > agreed-in-advance rules and procedures! > > > > TP > > > > >

"> "Appointed enforcers and blend line watchers"....those are your words, > Gavel. No one else is suggesting that. Your words: (snip) I also think it would be somewhat appropriate for someone like Eldred.....to kind of keep some records about who is causing yellows. (snip) Why? I'm fairly sure everyone else in the contest can figure out who is causing yellows consistently. Records? You must've meant 'mental records', I guess. ;) To suggest someone keep track infers that the info will be used to: Your words, again: This would include things like knowing how to start (or restart) races, pit lane speed limits, pace speed limits (for the track you are running), what the "official" rule and "unofficial" rules are about racing back to the line on a yellow, correct procedure for entering, traversing and exiting pit road, correct use of blend lines, prohibition of "chatting" during the race .......etc., etc. If you don't do these things....AND BE TOUGH ON VIOLATORS (sic)....these RASCAR races will degrade to nothing much better than Sierra.com pickup races. That would be a shame, IMHO. (snip) Who exactly is it that will 'get tough'? The guy "no one else is suggesting" ? LOL! Unless you meant "else" as everyone but yourself! ( You're killing me , man. This is too funny) <G> I agree with the rest of your

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> post.....only that the "gentlemen's agreements" be decided/agreed upon in > advance, and posted in some organized way so everyone joining the RASCAR > race on Saturday has a reasonable opportunity to know about them....and > follow them. Certainly you are not suggesting that during the practice > session, we conduct a "driver's meeting on-the-fly" via in-car chat, or > something as ridiculous as that....are you? > > Tom

Why not? Did it the other night in prep for a lan. Works. But then I'm not opposed to having it posted in advance either. It aint Rocket Science, just a fun race. Besides racing back on yellows and entering/pitting, what else is there to decide that aint a feature of the sim or a function of the person who sets up the server? You appear to be a bit obsessed with order. Relax, Pabst, chill a bit and have some fun. Gavel

"Gentlemen" will be honest enough to police themselves....if your spotter is saying.."Don't merge yet", then don't...If you can't follow the common sense rules and be respectful of the other drivers, go back to the sierra.com pickup races... That was the whole reason behind this group if I'm not mistaken.... This is not aimed at anyone, but it sounds like it could easily be no better than sierra.com if the people that participate let it get that way.... -- Biz "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and the....." - Ash Gavel <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > "> "Appointed enforcers and blend line watchers"....those are your words, > > Gavel. No one else is suggesting that. > > Your words: > (snip) > I also think it would be somewhat appropriate for someone like Eldred.....to > kind of keep some records about who is causing yellows. > (snip) > Why? I'm fairly sure everyone else in the contest can figure out who is > causing yellows consistently. Records? You must've meant 'mental records', > I guess. ;) To suggest someone keep track infers that the info will be used > to: > Your words, again: > > This would include > things like knowing how to start (or restart) races, pit lane speed limits, > pace speed limits (for the track you are running), what the "official" rule > and "unofficial" rules are about racing back to the line on a yellow, > correct procedure for entering, traversing and exiting pit road, correct use > of blend lines, prohibition of "chatting" during the race .......etc., etc. > If you don't do these things....AND BE TOUGH ON VIOLATORS (sic)....these > RASCAR > races will degrade to nothing much better than Sierra.com pickup races. > That would be a shame, IMHO. > (snip) > Who exactly is it that will 'get tough'? The guy "no one else is > suggesting" ? LOL! Unless you meant "else" as everyone but yourself! > ( You're killing me , man. This is too funny) <G> > I agree with the rest of your > > post.....only that the "gentlemen's agreements" be decided/agreed upon in > > advance, and posted in some organized way so everyone joining the RASCAR > > race on Saturday has a reasonable opportunity to know about them....and > > follow them. Certainly you are not suggesting that during the practice > > session, we conduct a "driver's meeting on-the-fly" via in-car chat, or > > something as ridiculous as that....are you? > > > > Tom > Why not? Did it the other night in prep for a lan. Works. But then I'm > not opposed to having it posted in advance either. It aint Rocket Science, > just a fun race. Besides racing back on yellows and entering/pitting, what > else is there to decide that aint a feature of the sim or a function of the > person who sets up the server? > You appear to be a bit obsessed with order. Relax, Pabst, chill a bit and > have some fun. > Gavel > > >

The only problem with listening to the spotter is that is is often too late. In recent race at Talladega a newbie took out the entire lead pack, when running his spotter said the leader was on his tail, so he moved down (should have moved up I know..) and managed to collect the first three or four cars...and then you can imagine what happened next... So gentlemen need to use all of the other tools to know where people are around them. At times I wish we didn't have mirrors and spotters in the cars, kinda like sprint cars. Where you have to hold your line because you never really know where someone is around you. But obviously with a computer sim this isn't very practical. btgoss "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:tehz8.53011$[email hidden]... > "Gentlemen" will be honest enough to police themselves....if your spotteris saying.."Don't merge > yet", then don't...If you can't follow the common sense rules and berespectful of the other > drivers, go back to the sierra.com pickup races... > That was the whole reason behind this group if I'm not mistaken.... > This is not aimed at anyone, but it sounds like it could easily be nobetter than sierra.com if the

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> people that participate let it get that way.... > -- > Biz > > "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand > alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and > the....." - Ash > > > Gavel <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]... > > > > "> "Appointed enforcers and blend line watchers"....those are yourwords, > > > Gavel. No one else is suggesting that. > > > > Your words: > > (snip) > > I also think it would be somewhat appropriate for someone likeEldred.....to > > kind of keep some records about who is causing yellows. > > (snip) > > Why? I'm fairly sure everyone else in the contest can figure out whois > > causing yellows consistently. Records? You must've meant 'mentalrecords', > > I guess. ;) To suggest someone keep track infers that the info will beused > > to: > > Your words, again: > > > > This would include > > things like knowing how to start (or restart) races, pit lane speedlimits, > > pace speed limits (for the track you are running), what the "official"rule > > and "unofficial" rules are about racing back to the line on a yellow, > > correct procedure for entering, traversing and exiting pit road, correctuse > > of blend lines, prohibition of "chatting" during the race .......etc.,etc.

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> > If you don't do these things....AND BE TOUGH ON VIOLATORS (sic)....these > > RASCAR > > races will degrade to nothing much better than Sierra.com pickup races. > > That would be a shame, IMHO. > > (snip) > > Who exactly is it that will 'get tough'? The guy "no one else is > > suggesting" ? LOL! Unless you meant "else" as everyone but yourself! > > ( You're killing me , man. This is too funny) <G> > > I agree with the rest of your > > > post.....only that the "gentlemen's agreements" be decided/agreed upon

in > > > advance, and posted in some organized way so everyone joining theRASCAR > > > race on Saturday has a reasonable opportunity to know aboutthem....and > > > follow them. Certainly you are not suggesting that during thepractice > > > session, we conduct a "driver's meeting on-the-fly" via in-car chat,or > > > something as ridiculous as that....are you? > > > > > > Tom > > Why not? Did it the other night in prep for a lan. Works. But thenI'm > > not opposed to having it posted in advance either. It aint RocketScience, > > just a fun race. Besides racing back on yellows and entering/pitting,what > > else is there to decide that aint a feature of the sim or a function ofthe > > person who sets up the server? > > You appear to be a bit obsessed with order. Relax, Pabst, chill a bitand

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> > have some fun. > > Gavel > > > > > > > >

My comment related to the spotter had nothing to do with any traffic situation, it had to do with proper merging etiquette, which so few seem to have these days. And driving through the pit stalls leaving instead of acting like there is always a car pitted directly in front of you, so as not to take out any cars that appear when connecting and entering driving mode. -- Biz "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and the....." - Ash btgoss <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zdiz8.57510$[email hidden]... > The only problem with listening to the spotter is that is is often too late. > In recent race at Talladega a newbie took out the entire lead pack, when > running his spotter said the leader was on his tail, so he moved down > (should have moved up I know..) and managed to collect the first three or > four cars...and then you can imagine what happened next... So gentlemen need > to use all of the other tools to know where people are around them. > At times I wish we didn't have mirrors and spotters in the cars, kinda like > sprint cars. Where you have to hold your line because you never really know > where someone is around you. But obviously with a computer sim this isn't > very practical. > > btgoss > > > "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:tehz8.53011$[email hidden]... > > "Gentlemen" will be honest enough to police themselves....if your spotter > is saying.."Don't merge > > yet", then don't...If you can't follow the common sense rules and be > respectful of the other > > drivers, go back to the sierra.com pickup races... > > That was the whole reason behind this group if I'm not mistaken.... > > This is not aimed at anyone, but it sounds like it could easily be no > better than sierra.com if the > > people that participate let it get that way.... > > -- > > Biz > > > > "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand > > alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and > > the....." - Ash > > > > > > Gavel <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > "> "Appointed enforcers and blend line watchers"....those are your > words, > > > > Gavel. No one else is suggesting that. > > > > > > Your words: > > > (snip) > > > I also think it would be somewhat appropriate for someone like > Eldred.....to > > > kind of keep some records about who is causing yellows. > > > (snip) > > > Why? I'm fairly sure everyone else in the contest can figure out who > is > > > causing yellows consistently. Records? You must've meant 'mental > records', > > > I guess. ;) To suggest someone keep track infers that the info will be > used > > > to: > > > Your words, again: > > > > > > This would include > > > things like knowing how to start (or restart) races, pit lane speed > limits, > > > pace speed limits (for the track you are running), what the "official" > rule > > > and "unofficial" rules are about racing back to the line on a yellow, > > > correct procedure for entering, traversing and exiting pit road, correct > use > > > of blend lines, prohibition of "chatting" during the race .......etc., > etc. > > > If you don't do these things....AND BE TOUGH ON VIOLATORS (sic)....these > > > RASCAR > > > races will degrade to nothing much better than Sierra.com pickup races. > > > That would be a shame, IMHO. > > > (snip) > > > Who exactly is it that will 'get tough'? The guy "no one else is > > > suggesting" ? LOL! Unless you meant "else" as everyone but yourself! > > > ( You're killing me , man. This is too funny) <G> > > > I agree with the rest of your > > > > post.....only that the "gentlemen's agreements" be decided/agreed upon > in > > > > advance, and posted in some organized way so everyone joining the > RASCAR > > > > race on Saturday has a reasonable opportunity to know about > them....and > > > > follow them. Certainly you are not suggesting that during the > practice > > > > session, we conduct a "driver's meeting on-the-fly" via in-car chat, > or > > > > something as ridiculous as that....are you? > > > > > > > > Tom > > > Why not? Did it the other night in prep for a lan. Works. But then > I'm > > > not opposed to having it posted in advance either. It aint Rocket > Science, > > > just a fun race. Besides racing back on yellows and entering/pitting, > what > > > else is there to decide that aint a feature of the sim or a function of > the > > > person who sets up the server? > > > You appear to be a bit obsessed with order. Relax, Pabst, chill a bit > and > > > have some fun. > > > Gavel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

In article <FbZy8.19215$ao1.7977@rwcrnsc54>, "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>There's a string below where something is discussed about restarting races >when there's a crash during the start. I had to take a phone call....lost >which thread it was, and now I can't find it. So....this "new post" is the >result. Sorry for that. > >**To Restart Or Not** >

Not. I understand your point of view, but I'm not going to start a habit of giving 'Mulligans' for a screwed up start. Besides, I'm not always in the race, and there might not be anyone in the field with the boss password. Also, someone who was involved in a lap 1 crash might be more likely to throw the red flag than someone who WASN'T involved. It's human nature.

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> >I also think it would be somewhat appropriate for someone like Eldred.....to >kind of keep some records about who is causing yellows. If a drivers is >consistently causing yellows (any time during the race)....you have to ask >that driver....in a friendly way.... to discontinue running in the RASCAR >races until they have a little more racing experience. That only makes >sense, IMHO.

If I have time to check the replays, there may be a few people getting that e-mail...

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>Another "sensitive issue"...is requiring the entrants to the RASCAR races >understand the basic "racing rules" of NASCAR racing. This would include >things like knowing how to start (or restart) races, pit lane speed limits, >pace speed limits (for the track you are running), what the "official" rule >and "unofficial" rules are about racing back to the line on a yellow, >correct procedure for entering, traversing and exiting pit road, correct use >of blend lines, prohibition of "chatting" during the race .......etc., etc. >If you don't do these things....and be tough on violators....these RASCAR >races will degrade to nothing much better than Sierra.com pickup races. >That would be a shame, IMHO.

Most of those only screw the driver commiting the foul. I guarantee the people who've gotten black flags will try like HELL not to let that happen again...<g> I *would* like to eliminate the frivilous chatting, though.

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>To this end, it probably would make sense for someone to come up with a >"standard driver's meeting" form......much like most of the leagues >use....for these RASCAR races. It should contain all the same info.....and >new guys can quickly see the "rules summary" and the pit/pace speeds for the >tracks being run. The "driver's meeting" form can be filled out and posted >here each week by Eldred, or one of the other "regulars." This also makes >sense, IHHO. (We have one we use I can post here....after converting it to >"plain text" from "HTML"...you guys would like?)

I'd be interested in seeing your summary. > >As much as you guys are wanting to keep this RASCAR racing sort of informal >and casual....it still needs to be "organized" or it will quickly degrade to >crappy "pickup" races. I think that may be starting to happen already, >based on some of the posts from yesterday's race? Only at certain tracks. I'm proud to say that 90% of the races have been well-fought, and fairly 'clean'. The next race at Daytona or Talladega may be a full-lentgh race. That may put drivers on better behavior Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Gavel... You lifted my words from a post in another string.....not exactly in the same context as this one. That was about the need for rules....what if any they would include. I want to be clear about what you are saying. Are you suggesting that someone who consistently causes yellows should be allowed to continue to run in RASCAR events (or any organized racing online)? Just because the RASCAR races don't accumulate season points....doesn't mean the participants are not interested in racing....not crash fests. As of the moment, there's probably no one running the RASCAR races that this would apply to. Most of the discussion about the "need for rules and guidelines" I thought was about discussing the future when anyone regardless of experience could join the RASCAR Saturday races. A "ticket" to this newsgroup doesn't take much to acquire. Tom "Gavel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > "> "Appointed enforcers and blend line watchers"....those are your words, > > Gavel. No one else is suggesting that. > > Your words: > (snip) > I also think it would be somewhat appropriate for someone like

Eldred.....to > kind of keep some records about who is causing yellows. > (snip) > Why? I'm fairly sure everyone else in the contest can figure out whois > causing yellows consistently. Records? You must've meant 'mentalrecords', > I guess. ;) To suggest someone keep track infers that the info will beused > to: > Your words, again: > > This would include > things like knowing how to start (or restart) races, pit lane speedlimits, > pace speed limits (for the track you are running), what the "official"rule > and "unofficial" rules are about racing back to the line on a yellow, > correct procedure for entering, traversing and exiting pit road, correctuse > of blend lines, prohibition of "chatting" during the race .......etc.,etc.

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> If you don't do these things....AND BE TOUGH ON VIOLATORS (sic)....these > RASCAR > races will degrade to nothing much better than Sierra.com pickup races. > That would be a shame, IMHO. > (snip) > Who exactly is it that will 'get tough'? The guy "no one else is > suggesting" ? LOL! Unless you meant "else" as everyone but yourself! > ( You're killing me , man. This is too funny) <G> > I agree with the rest of your > > post.....only that the "gentlemen's agreements" be decided/agreed upon

in

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> > advance, and posted in some organized way so everyone joining the RASCAR > > race on Saturday has a reasonable opportunity to know about them....and > > follow them. Certainly you are not suggesting that during the practice > > session, we conduct a "driver's meeting on-the-fly" via in-car chat, or > > something as ridiculous as that....are you? > > > > Tom > Why not? Did it the other night in prep for a lan. Works. But then I'm > not opposed to having it posted in advance either. It aint Rocket Science, > just a fun race. Besides racing back on yellows and entering/pitting, what > else is there to decide that aint a feature of the sim or a function of

the

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> person who sets up the server? > You appear to be a bit obsessed with order. Relax, Pabst, chill a bit and > have some fun. > Gavel > > >

Eldred....I agree with you 100%....that's why the rule has to be automatic. "If a yellow comes out in the first x laps"...the race is restarted....no questions. It doesn't matter who causes it...for what reason. Its automatic restart. If there's no yellow flag...there's no restart even if half the field is run into the grass....no yellow....the race is "go for completion." The group I do this with on Monday nights.....we use two laps. We used to use 3 laps....but cut it back to two. Since we implemented this "agreement".....we rarely have yellows in the first couple of laps. It happens maybe once in 20 races....it used to happen 15 times in 20 races....before we adopted this. I don't really care one way or the other what you guys do. I offered this as a suggestion......based on something I have experience with working to help reduce wrecks on starts. I thought that was what the point of all these "rules" posts was.....reducing wrecks and mistakes made by guys who didn't follow the basic guidelines of online racing. Geesh. TP "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <FbZy8.19215$ao1.7977@rwcrnsc54>, "Tom Pabst"<[email hidden]> > writes: > > >There's a string below where something is discussed about restartingraces > >when there's a crash during the start. I had to take a phonecall....lost > >which thread it was, and now I can't find it. So....this "new post" isthe > >result. Sorry for that. > > > >**To Restart Or Not** > > > > Not. I understand your point of view, but I'm not going to start a habitof > giving 'Mulligans' for a screwed up start. Besides, I'm not always in the > race, and there might not be anyone in the field with the boss password.Also, > someone who was involved in a lap 1 crash might be more likely to throwthe red > flag than someone who WASN'T involved. It's human nature. > > > > > > >I also think it would be somewhat appropriate for someone likeEldred.....to > >kind of keep some records about who is causing yellows. If a drivers is > >consistently causing yellows (any time during the race)....you have toask > >that driver....in a friendly way.... to discontinue running in the RASCAR > >races until they have a little more racing experience. That only makes > >sense, IMHO. > > If I have time to check the replays, there may be a few people gettingthat > e-mail... > > >Another "sensitive issue"...is requiring the entrants to the RASCAR races > >understand the basic "racing rules" of NASCAR racing. This would include > >things like knowing how to start (or restart) races, pit lane speedlimits, > >pace speed limits (for the track you are running), what the "official"rule > >and "unofficial" rules are about racing back to the line on a yellow, > >correct procedure for entering, traversing and exiting pit road, correctuse > >of blend lines, prohibition of "chatting" during the race .......etc.,etc. > >If you don't do these things....and be tough on violators....these RASCAR > >races will degrade to nothing much better than Sierra.com pickup races. > >That would be a shame, IMHO. > > Most of those only screw the driver commiting the foul. I guarantee thepeople > who've gotten black flags will try like HELL not to let that happenagain...<g> > I *would* like to eliminate the frivilous chatting, though. > > >To this end, it probably would make sense for someone to come up with a > >"standard driver's meeting" form......much like most of the leagues > >use....for these RASCAR races. It should contain all the sameinfo.....and > >new guys can quickly see the "rules summary" and the pit/pace speeds forthe > >tracks being run. The "driver's meeting" form can be filled out andposted > >here each week by Eldred, or one of the other "regulars." This alsomakes > >sense, IHHO. (We have one we use I can post here....after converting itto > >"plain text" from "HTML"...you guys would like?) > > I'd be interested in seeing your summary. > > > > >As much as you guys are wanting to keep this RASCAR racing sort ofinformal > >and casual....it still needs to be "organized" or it will quickly degradeto > >crappy "pickup" races. I think that may be starting to happen already, > >based on some of the posts from yesterday's race? > > Only at certain tracks. I'm proud to say that 90% of the races have been > well-fought, and fairly 'clean'. The next race at Daytona or Talladegamay be > a full-lentgh race. That may put drivers on better behavior > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research tocure > breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a > donation. Thank you. > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

The sim takes care of improper merging. I beleive you get the black flag for merging too soon. Gavel "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Hojz8.57295$[email hidden]... > My comment related to the spotter had nothing to do with any trafficsituation, it had to do with > proper merging etiquette, which so few seem to have these days.

Very well put, Achim. Gavel "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aaleac$bp4pb$[email hidden]... > Hi Eldred, > > I'd vote against restarts, and also against official rules. > > I would suggest that we keep seeing these events as open, casual funevents. > I have no worries that they could become as chaotic as some of the > Sierra.com races, simply based on the personality of the drivers I've seen > on the track so far, and because of group pressure. Nobody here races > incognito. We know each other, we are a regular group, and that increases > the motivation for performing well not only in the sense of being fast,but

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> also of behaving according to the generally accepted behavioural patterns > within this group. > > If we think we need official statements, I'd suggest creating a 'Common > Sense Statement' as the basis of our races. This 'Common Sense Statement' > could say something to the effect of: > > 'A race isn't won on lap 1, and in order to win the race, you have to

finish > it in one piece. Adjust your driving and behaviour on the trackaccordingly, > and be aware of the fact that you're not the only one who wants to winthis > race. Show the others drivers the same respect, fairness and sportsmanship > that you expect from them. And don't flatter yourself for aggressivenessor > cutthroat moves - both are immature and silly, and have no place inracing. > Flatter yourself for clean driving, for not crashing, for intelligently > understanding what's going on during the race, for having a good race > strategy and tactics, for avoiding accidents you might have been pulledinto

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> by others, and for having maintained sportsmanship and fairness even when > things got heated up. You're only going to have fun in these races if you > cooperate with the others. Racing is _not_ a one man show!!' > > ...or something to that effect. No need for anything else, not even the > jumpstart issue. We all agree on that anyway. > > The reason for most all accidents is that simmers don't take the above

facts > seriously enough. We drive faster than we can, faster than necessary, and > faster than a given situation permits. I think most accidents > (driving-related ones and those in one-on-one battles) come from us > overestimating our actual driving ability and racecraft. This seems to me > the most common error among simmers. 'Fighting' or 'Racing' is only if we > keep ourselves and the other cars on the track, and moving. Everythingelse

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> is just bad moves :-) > > If we drive within our abilities, and simply show respect for the others, > we'll be having good clean races. > > Achim > >

This is not a "fun league"......this is a semi-organized pickup race. Open to anyone who stumbles into RAS and happens to see the PW for the race. Its also open to anyone who "thinks" they have enough experience in online racing.....or running N2K2....because they've won a few AI races....and a few "sprint-length" online races. It can and will (IMHO) degrade to not much more than Sierra.com pickup racing.....in short order if some guidelines are not at least agreed to so that everyone is aware of the procedures that are NOT covered by the sim AI officials. TP "Gavel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Depends on what Ras'ers want, a league with rules, cops and enforcers,or > a break from that rigidity and a drive for fun. > I have never seen a fun league degrade into pickup madness, but Ihave > seen a few that resulted in some great friendships, a team or two and > perhaps the formation of a seperate league. > Gavel > >

"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> 'A race isn't won on lap 1, and in order to win the race, you have to finish > it in one piece. Adjust your driving and behaviour on the track accordingly, > and be aware of the fact that you're not the only one who wants to win this > race. Show the others drivers the same respect, fairness and sportsmanship > that you expect from them. And don't flatter yourself for aggressiveness or > cutthroat moves - both are immature and silly, and have no place in racing. > Flatter yourself for clean driving, for not crashing, for intelligently > understanding what's going on during the race, for having a good race > strategy and tactics, for avoiding accidents you might have been pulled into > by others, and for having maintained sportsmanship and fairness even when > things got heated up. You're only going to have fun in these races if you > cooperate with the others. Racing is _not_ a one man show!!'

Horray! -- Olav Malmin remove .spam when replying

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:V8rz8.31652$vX.3538@rwcrnsc53... > Gavel... > > You lifted my words from a post in another string.....not exactly in the > same context as this one. That was about the need for rules....what ifany > they would include. >Your quotes came from the first message in this thread. Nothing was taken out of context. You'd like rules, someone to monitor behavior, and someone to enforce the rules. You tell me that no one is suggesting exactly what you suggested. I laughed. Now you tell me that I lifted your text from a different thread (string) and have taken it out of context. I'm shaking my head now. > I want to be clear about what you are saying. Are you suggesting that > someone who consistently causes yellows should be allowed to continue torun > in RASCAR events (or any organized racing online)?(snip) LOL. Nope, not even close. Read Achim's take on the issue. He frames it quite nicely. Gavel

It's not? Sounds to me like some folks are having fun. I'll keep an eye out for those "stumblers". They run in packs, you know.;) Doesn't take more than a few moments to agree to the days' rules. No pressure, no points, no pointed fingers. Fun!! Gavel "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ywrz8.92184$[email hidden]... > This is not a "fun league"......this is a semi-organized pickup race.Open > to anyone who stumbles into RAS and happens to see the PW for the race.(snip)

Hi Eldred, I'd vote against restarts, and also against official rules. I would suggest that we keep seeing these events as open, casual fun events. I have no worries that they could become as chaotic as some of the Sierra.com races, simply based on the personality of the drivers I've seen on the track so far, and because of group pressure. Nobody here races incognito. We know each other, we are a regular group, and that increases the motivation for performing well not only in the sense of being fast, but also of behaving according to the generally accepted behavioural patterns within this group. If we think we need official statements, I'd suggest creating a 'Common Sense Statement' as the basis of our races. This 'Common Sense Statement' could say something to the effect of: 'A race isn't won on lap 1, and in order to win the race, you have to finish it in one piece. Adjust your driving and behaviour on the track accordingly, and be aware of the fact that you're not the only one who wants to win this race. Show the others drivers the same respect, fairness and sportsmanship that you expect from them. And don't flatter yourself for aggressiveness or cutthroat moves - both are immature and silly, and have no place in racing. Flatter yourself for clean driving, for not crashing, for intelligently understanding what's going on during the race, for having a good race strategy and tactics, for avoiding accidents you might have been pulled into by others, and for having maintained sportsmanship and fairness even when things got heated up. You're only going to have fun in these races if you cooperate with the others. Racing is _not_ a one man show!!' ...or something to that effect. No need for anything else, not even the jumpstart issue. We all agree on that anyway. The reason for most all accidents is that simmers don't take the above facts seriously enough. We drive faster than we can, faster than necessary, and faster than a given situation permits. I think most accidents (driving-related ones and those in one-on-one battles) come from us overestimating our actual driving ability and racecraft. This seems to me the most common error among simmers. 'Fighting' or 'Racing' is only if we keep ourselves and the other cars on the track, and moving. Everything else is just bad moves :-) If we drive within our abilities, and simply show respect for the others, we'll be having good clean races. Achim

Gavel... Go back up to the top and read the first sentence again. TP "Gavel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:V8rz8.31652$vX.3538@rwcrnsc53... > > Gavel... > > > > You lifted my words from a post in another string.....not exactly in the > > same context as this one. That was about the need for rules....what if > any > > they would include. > > > Your quotes came from the first message in this thread. Nothing was taken > out of context. > You'd like rules, someone to monitor behavior, and someone to enforce

the

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> rules. You tell me that no one is suggesting exactly what you suggested. I > laughed. Now you tell me that I lifted your text from a different thread > (string) and have taken it out of context. I'm shaking my head now. > > > I want to be clear about what you are saying. Are you suggesting that > > someone who consistently causes yellows should be allowed to continue to > run > > in RASCAR events (or any organized racing online)? > (snip) > > LOL. Nope, not even close. Read Achim's take on the issue. He frames

it > quite nicely. > Gavel > >

Lol......wait a minute! The original post above was my response.....simply offering a suggestion of something we found worked......to most of you bitching and complaining about guys diving under cars in the turn entries, jumping the starts, not staying in drafting line......yadda, dadda, do.....at last weekend's RASCAR race (an earlier thread below which I did not participate in at all). Then...you tell me some BS about everyone's driving behavior will be "motivated by group pressure to be good"...and the RASCAR races have no "potential" to degrade into pickup-style101 Sierra.com messes? Sounds like they already have in only three weekends! Are you guys nuts or something? I don't give a shit what you guys do! I simply made what I thought was a helpful suggestion of something I know works to prevent what you were all complaining about already. Yikes.... TP "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aaleac$bp4pb$[email hidden]... > Hi Eldred, > > I'd vote against restarts, and also against official rules. > > I would suggest that we keep seeing these events as open, casual funevents. > I have no worries that they could become as chaotic as some of the > Sierra.com races, simply based on the personality of the drivers I've seen > on the track so far, and because of group pressure. Nobody here races > incognito. We know each other, we are a regular group, and that increases > the motivation for performing well not only in the sense of being fast,but

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> also of behaving according to the generally accepted behavioural patterns > within this group. > > If we think we need official statements, I'd suggest creating a 'Common > Sense Statement' as the basis of our races. This 'Common Sense Statement' > could say something to the effect of: > > 'A race isn't won on lap 1, and in order to win the race, you have to

finish > it in one piece. Adjust your driving and behaviour on the trackaccordingly, > and be aware of the fact that you're not the only one who wants to winthis > race. Show the others drivers the same respect, fairness and sportsmanship > that you expect from them. And don't flatter yourself for aggressivenessor > cutthroat moves - both are immature and silly, and have no place inracing. > Flatter yourself for clean driving, for not crashing, for intelligently > understanding what's going on during the race, for having a good race > strategy and tactics, for avoiding accidents you might have been pulledinto

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> by others, and for having maintained sportsmanship and fairness even when > things got heated up. You're only going to have fun in these races if you > cooperate with the others. Racing is _not_ a one man show!!' > > ...or something to that effect. No need for anything else, not even the > jumpstart issue. We all agree on that anyway. > > The reason for most all accidents is that simmers don't take the above

facts > seriously enough. We drive faster than we can, faster than necessary, and > faster than a given situation permits. I think most accidents > (driving-related ones and those in one-on-one battles) come from us > overestimating our actual driving ability and racecraft. This seems to me > the most common error among simmers. 'Fighting' or 'Racing' is only if we > keep ourselves and the other cars on the track, and moving. Everythingelse

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> is just bad moves :-) > > If we drive within our abilities, and simply show respect for the others, > we'll be having good clean races. > > Achim > >

It took six weekends to degrade into a pick up race. :-) -- David G Fisher "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%4Mz8.30959$ao1.9374@rwcrnsc54... > Lol......wait a minute! > > The original post above was my response.....simply offering a suggestion of > something we found worked......to most of you bitching and complaining about > guys diving under cars in the turn entries, jumping the starts, not staying > in drafting line......yadda, dadda, do.....at last weekend's RASCAR race (an > earlier thread below which I did not participate in at all). > > Then...you tell me some BS about everyone's driving behavior will be > "motivated by group pressure to be good"...and the RASCAR races have no > "potential" to degrade into pickup-style101 Sierra.com messes? Sounds like > they already have in only three weekends! Are you guys nuts or something? > > I don't give a shit what you guys do! I simply made what I thought was a > helpful suggestion of something I know works to prevent what you were all > complaining about already. > > Yikes.... > > TP > > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:aaleac$bp4pb$[email hidden]... > > Hi Eldred, > > > > I'd vote against restarts, and also against official rules. > > > > I would suggest that we keep seeing these events as open, casual fun > events. > > I have no worries that they could become as chaotic as some of the > > Sierra.com races, simply based on the personality of the drivers I've seen > > on the track so far, and because of group pressure. Nobody here races > > incognito. We know each other, we are a regular group, and that increases > > the motivation for performing well not only in the sense of being fast, > but > > also of behaving according to the generally accepted behavioural patterns > > within this group. > > > > If we think we need official statements, I'd suggest creating a 'Common > > Sense Statement' as the basis of our races. This 'Common Sense Statement' > > could say something to the effect of: > > > > 'A race isn't won on lap 1, and in order to win the race, you have to > finish > > it in one piece. Adjust your driving and behaviour on the track > accordingly, > > and be aware of the fact that you're not the only one who wants to win > this > > race. Show the others drivers the same respect, fairness and sportsmanship > > that you expect from them. And don't flatter yourself for aggressiveness > or > > cutthroat moves - both are immature and silly, and have no place in > racing. > > Flatter yourself for clean driving, for not crashing, for intelligently > > understanding what's going on during the race, for having a good race > > strategy and tactics, for avoiding accidents you might have been pulled > into > > by others, and for having maintained sportsmanship and fairness even when > > things got heated up. You're only going to have fun in these races if you > > cooperate with the others. Racing is _not_ a one man show!!' > > > > ...or something to that effect. No need for anything else, not even the > > jumpstart issue. We all agree on that anyway. > > > > The reason for most all accidents is that simmers don't take the above > facts > > seriously enough. We drive faster than we can, faster than necessary, and > > faster than a given situation permits. I think most accidents > > (driving-related ones and those in one-on-one battles) come from us > > overestimating our actual driving ability and racecraft. This seems to me > > the most common error among simmers. 'Fighting' or 'Racing' is only if we > > keep ourselves and the other cars on the track, and moving. Everything > else > > is just bad moves :-) > > > > If we drive within our abilities, and simply show respect for the others, > > we'll be having good clean races. > > > > Achim > > > > > >

<g> Achim "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_XNz8.7851$[email hidden]... > It took six weekends to degrade into a pick up race. :-)