Manual Transmission Simulator?

Hello, New to the group... can you recommend a good simulator that might be a reasonable place to start learning about how to drive a car with manual transmission? I know there is no substitute for the real thing, but I somehow think it would help to have some practice on a simulator... To make a long story short, I am considering purchasing a sports car, and was thinking it would be great to have it as a stick shift- only problem is that I've driven an automatic all my life, and all my closest friends drive them too (or are not willing to let me wear out/ruin the clutch in their manual transmission). Seems like driver schools don't typically teach stick, so I'm in a bad way... I have a pretty limited CPU setup (667 MHz PIII); might be worth investing in an upgrade, if it saves me a grand to get a clutch replaced 5-10K into ownership of my new car. Maybe I can somehow upgrade my old PSX in the process (still like to play a game now and then...). Any help greatly appreciated... ChrisS

I don't think you'll find one that will work. The clutch is ALL about feel, and I've never felt a set of pedals that could really accurately even get the feel of the brake right, let alone the clutch. And even if you did find one that did a good job, it still wouldn't help a whole lot; each car is different when it comes to the clutch. My dad's driven stick for years, and the first times he got in our Camaro with a new clutch (once when he bought it new in '94, and once after we put the new clutch in this past spring break) he still killed it the first time both times. And every car he's owned has been a stick, with the exception of his current daily driver ('97 Mercedes-Benz E320) - '68 Firebird, '73 Camaro, a 914, a 912, a '74? 911, and then the '94 Z28... Probably one of the best things you could do to help you learn to drive stick is try to get smooth at left-foot braking. If you can do that, it seems to help quite a bit when working the clutch., as you're training yourself to work your left foot in small increments. Milhouse "Chris Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:z3jC8.4067$[email hidden]...

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> Hello, > > New to the group... can you recommend a good simulator that might be a > reasonable place to start learning about how to drive a car with manual > transmission? I know there is no substitute for the real thing, but I > somehow think it would help to have some practice on a simulator... > > To make a long story short, I am considering purchasing a sports car, and > was thinking it would be great to have it as a stick shift- only problem

is > that I've driven an automatic all my life, and all my closest friendsdrive

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> them too (or are not willing to let me wear out/ruin the clutch in their > manual transmission). > > Seems like driver schools don't typically teach stick, so I'm in a bad > way... > > I have a pretty limited CPU setup (667 MHz PIII); might be worth investing > in an upgrade, if it saves me a grand to get a clutch replaced 5-10K into > ownership of my new car. Maybe I can somehow upgrade my old PSX in the > process (still like to play a game now and then...). > > Any help greatly appreciated... > > ChrisS > >

Learning to drive a manual car isn't all that bad -- you won't destroy the clutch, believe me. Automatic cars barely exist here in Europe (or anywhere except America, in fact), so pretty much everyone drives manuals. After a few scary lessons of kangaroo hopping you get the hang of it very fast...just be smooth and gentle with the clutch, and move it more slowly near the biting point. I was told by a friend that if you own a manual car in the US, you don't need to bother locking it as the thieves can't drive it...thought it was funny. But believe me, it's not hard! Driving automatics must be really boring I always thought -- I definitely recommend getting a real car, as you're doing ;) I don't reckon that there's many computer simulations that will help -- and you need a third pedal on the controls too. Knowing when to change gear isn't a problem (you know all about it if you're in the wrong gear), it's the control of the clutch which is the tricky bit at first. Best of luck! If the 17-year old boy racers around here can manage it, anybody can...

I don't think you should worry about it. Buy your sports car with the stick shift. You will quickly get the hang of it in 1 or 2 days of driving and there is no way you can wear out your clutch that fast. We all learned how to drive sticks without simulators and you can do it too no sweat. It may be a little intimidating but really, there is nothing to it. -Tim "Chris Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:z3jC8.4067$[email hidden]...

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> Hello, > > New to the group... can you recommend a good simulator that might be a > reasonable place to start learning about how to drive a car with manual > transmission? I know there is no substitute for the real thing, but I > somehow think it would help to have some practice on a simulator... > > To make a long story short, I am considering purchasing a sports car, and > was thinking it would be great to have it as a stick shift- only problem

is > that I've driven an automatic all my life, and all my closest friendsdrive

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> them too (or are not willing to let me wear out/ruin the clutch in their > manual transmission). > > Seems like driver schools don't typically teach stick, so I'm in a bad > way... > > I have a pretty limited CPU setup (667 MHz PIII); might be worth investing > in an upgrade, if it saves me a grand to get a clutch replaced 5-10K into > ownership of my new car. Maybe I can somehow upgrade my old PSX in the > process (still like to play a game now and then...). > > Any help greatly appreciated... > > ChrisS > >

"Chris Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:z3jC8.4067$[email hidden]... > > Seems like driver schools don't typically teach stick, so I'm in a bad > way... Unless you live somewhere really weird you'll find a driver school to help you. The major one in my town teaches the method of your choice. A friend of mine thought he could learn standard in one night before picking up his Subaru Impreza. Didn't work out for him ;) He found a driving school that did by the hour instruction on whatever you wanted. Took two sessions and he was good to go. Try calling the smaller driving schools (like the one-man operations). D.

I learned to drive a stick in the arcade playing Hard Drivin' :-) Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com My little car sim screenshots: http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

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> Probably one of the best things you could do to help you learn to drive > stick is try to get smooth at left-foot braking. If you can do that, it > seems to help quite a bit when working the clutch., as you're training > yourself to work your left foot in small increments. > > Milhouse > > "Chris Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:z3jC8.4067$[email hidden].

That's a good one. never thought of that as an aid, even though ive been doing it all my life. Another good piece of advice is dont use the clutch as a 'hill holder", as it is much cheaper to replace brakes than it is to swap a clutch :)

"Douglas Cowan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3cd9c11d$0$8505$[email hidden]... > Driving automatics must be really boring I always thought -- I definitely > recommend getting a real car, as you're doing ;) That would explain why F1 cars are semi-auto, eh? Who wants to piss around with changing gears all the time during rush hour? It's just a pain in the arse.

You might find an arcade operator (in the phone book) that still has one of these around somewhere. If you really get lucky, maybe you could get them to set it to free-play for a flat hourly rate or something, otherwise it can get a little pricy at 50 cents per 2 minutes or so (until you get good enough to play a long time on one coin-up). During the game development we taught several people from the administratative group how to drive stick on either Hard Drivin or Race Drivin (both Atari coin-op games). The pedals are easily good enough, as is the engine-driveline model. On 9 May 2002, J. Todd Wasson wrote:

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> I learned to drive a stick in the arcade playing Hard Drivin' :-) > > > Todd Wasson > --- > Performance Simulations > Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction > Software > http://PerformanceSimulations.Com > > My little car sim screenshots: > http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm > > >

Rent a car for a weekend with a stick. You can get some cheap practice that way. Wayne Templin "Chris Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:z3jC8.4067$[email hidden]...

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> Hello, > > New to the group... can you recommend a good simulator that might be a > reasonable place to start learning about how to drive a car with manual > transmission? I know there is no substitute for the real thing, but I > somehow think it would help to have some practice on a simulator... > > To make a long story short, I am considering purchasing a sports car, and > was thinking it would be great to have it as a stick shift- only problem

is > that I've driven an automatic all my life, and all my closest friendsdrive

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> them too (or are not willing to let me wear out/ruin the clutch in their > manual transmission). > > Seems like driver schools don't typically teach stick, so I'm in a bad > way... > > I have a pretty limited CPU setup (667 MHz PIII); might be worth investing > in an upgrade, if it saves me a grand to get a clutch replaced 5-10K into > ownership of my new car. Maybe I can somehow upgrade my old PSX in the > process (still like to play a game now and then...). > > Any help greatly appreciated... > > ChrisS > >

"GMpartsguy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:pulC8.2461$[email hidden]...

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> > > > Probably one of the best things you could do to help you learn to drive > > stick is try to get smooth at left-foot braking. If you can do that, it > > seems to help quite a bit when working the clutch., as you're training > > yourself to work your left foot in small increments. > > > > Milhouse > > > > "Chris Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:z3jC8.4067$[email hidden]. > > That's a good one. never thought of that as an aid, even though ive been > doing it all my life. Another good piece of advice is dont use the clutch

as > a 'hill holder", as it is much cheaper to replace brakes than it is toswap > a clutch :) > > Not to mention on most cars, a ton easier. ;) Milhouse

I don't know about your local "Hard Drivin'" arcade machine but the ones I played didn't have a clutch pedal. If it did, it'd be pretty hard to play standing up!! Come to think of it, I can't recall any arcade driving machines that had clutch pedals. -Tim "J. Todd Wasson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I learned to drive a stick in the arcade playing Hard Drivin' :-) > > > Todd Wasson > --- > Performance Simulations > Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction > Software > http://PerformanceSimulations.Com > > My little car sim screenshots: > http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm >

On Thu, 09 May 2002 00:05:51 GMT, "Chris Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Hello, > >New to the group... can you recommend a good simulator that might be a >reasonable place to start learning about how to drive a car with manual >transmission? I know there is no substitute for the real thing, but I >somehow think it would help to have some practice on a simulator... Even with the Act Labs shifter, clutch pedals and wheel, it doesn't simulate the 'bite point'. But playing games like the FIA GT MOD for F12001, or GPL should get you use to shifting/clutching. >To make a long story short, I am considering purchasing a sports car, and >was thinking it would be great to have it as a stick shift- only problem is >that I've driven an automatic all my life, and all my closest friends drive >them too (or are not willing to let me wear out/ruin the clutch in their >manual transmission). Buy the car and have them teach you in your car. >Seems like driver schools don't typically teach stick, so I'm in a bad >way... > I'm sure there are private driving instructors that can teach stick. Ask around.

"Milhouse" <[email hidden]> writes: > I don't think you'll find one that will work. The clutch is ALL about feel, > and I've never felt a set of pedals that could really accurately even get > the feel of the brake right, let alone the clutch. true. but I doubt it'd take much more than two hours in a real car to get the hang of it. -- Gunnar #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy"

Thanks to all who replied; I at least have some options for how to go about learning, and feel a touch less worried about it. Actually, I am really looking forward to learning... I suppose having a MT will also discourage some of the request to borrow the car. Thanks again- happy simulating... "Chris Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:z3jC8.4067$[email hidden]...

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> Hello, > > New to the group... can you recommend a good simulator that might be a > reasonable place to start learning about how to drive a car with manual > transmission? I know there is no substitute for the real thing, but I > somehow think it would help to have some practice on a simulator... > > To make a long story short, I am considering purchasing a sports car, and > was thinking it would be great to have it as a stick shift- only problem

is > that I've driven an automatic all my life, and all my closest friendsdrive

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> them too (or are not willing to let me wear out/ruin the clutch in their > manual transmission). > > Seems like driver schools don't typically teach stick, so I'm in a bad > way... > > I have a pretty limited CPU setup (667 MHz PIII); might be worth investing > in an upgrade, if it saves me a grand to get a clutch replaced 5-10K into > ownership of my new car. Maybe I can somehow upgrade my old PSX in the > process (still like to play a game now and then...). > > Any help greatly appreciated... > > ChrisS > >

There were multiple versions of the box, some with 'seats' and third pedals...I think the hideously beaten one at our theater has one (the poor thing has just been THRASHED though; the fact that the display is also somewhat messed up doesn't help...a shame, such a GREAT game...) A good portion of San Francisco Rush machines have clutch pedals. The feel isn't bad for the pedal, but the game modeling is just in or out, no slip / stalling / etc. You don't even really need it in the game. Milhouse "Tim Miser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MRoC8.2635$[email hidden]...

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> I don't know about your local "Hard Drivin'" arcade machine but the ones I > played didn't have a clutch pedal. If it did, it'd be pretty hard to play > standing up!! Come to think of it, I can't recall any arcade driving > machines that had clutch pedals. > > -Tim > > > "J. Todd Wasson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I learned to drive a stick in the arcade playing Hard Drivin' :-) > > > > > > Todd Wasson > > --- > > Performance Simulations > > Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction > > Software > > http://PerformanceSimulations.Com > > > > My little car sim screenshots: > > http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm > > > >

Strider <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > "Douglas Cowan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3cd9c11d$0$8505$[email hidden]... > > Driving automatics must be really boring I always thought -- I definitely > > recommend getting a real car, as you're doing ;) > > That would explain why F1 cars are semi-auto, eh? Who wants to piss around > with changing gears all the time during rush hour? It's just a pain in the > arse.

They don't have torque converters, and the driver can decide/program when *not* to change gear - those are the important bits. Jonny

Burnout, PCE, NIRA.. all good dw bethsoft make a drag racing game "Chris Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:z3jC8.4067$[email hidden]...

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> Hello, > > New to the group... can you recommend a good simulator that might be a > reasonable place to start learning about how to drive a car with manual > transmission? I know there is no substitute for the real thing, but I > somehow think it would help to have some practice on a simulator... > > To make a long story short, I am considering purchasing a sports car, and > was thinking it would be great to have it as a stick shift- only problem

is > that I've driven an automatic all my life, and all my closest friendsdrive

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> them too (or are not willing to let me wear out/ruin the clutch in their > manual transmission). > > Seems like driver schools don't typically teach stick, so I'm in a bad > way... > > I have a pretty limited CPU setup (667 MHz PIII); might be worth investing > in an upgrade, if it saves me a grand to get a clutch replaced 5-10K into > ownership of my new car. Maybe I can somehow upgrade my old PSX in the > process (still like to play a game now and then...). > > Any help greatly appreciated... > > ChrisS > > >

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>You might find an arcade operator (in the phone book) that still has one of >these around somewhere. If you really get lucky, maybe you could get them >to set it to free-play for a flat hourly rate or something, otherwise it >can get a little pricy at 50 cents per 2 minutes or so (until you get >good enough to play a long time on one coin-up). > >During the game development we taught several people from the >administratative group how to drive stick on either Hard Drivin or Race >Drivin (both Atari coin-op games). The pedals are easily good enough, as is >the engine-driveline model. > >

Oh yes, any time I see these games around I sit down and play. There's still nothing like them. I was always number one on any machine I played (now it's F355 for me, #1 on everything but Motegi 'cause I don't do ovals ;-)). I did manage to play on one coin for close to two hours on the super stunt track in Race Drivin', and usually could go for a good half hour or more on the autocross :-D I put a LOT of money into those games! lol Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com My little car sim screenshots: http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

Hello ??? Anybody home? "Don Wilshe" said:

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> Burnout, PCE, NIRA.. all good > > bethsoft make a drag racing game > "Chris Smith" said: > > > > To make a long story short, I am considering purchasing a sports car,

and > > was thinking it would be great to have it as a stick shift- only problemis > > that I've driven an automatic all my life, and all my closest friendsdrive > > them too (or are not willing to let me wear out/ruin the clutch in their > > manual transmission). -- ed_

Too bad your arcade didn't have the original sit-down cabinet version, with bucket seat. It also had a direct drive motor for the steering (compact version you tried has a belt drive) along with all three full sized pedals and a full sized shifter (modeled after an actual Hurst shifter). On Thu, 9 May 2002, Tim Miser wrote:

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> I don't know about your local "Hard Drivin'" arcade machine but the ones I > played didn't have a clutch pedal. If it did, it'd be pretty hard to play > standing up!! Come to think of it, I can't recall any arcade driving > machines that had clutch pedals. > > -Tim > > > "J. Todd Wasson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I learned to drive a stick in the arcade playing Hard Drivin' :-) > > > > > > Todd Wasson > > --- > > Performance Simulations > > Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction > > Software > > http://PerformanceSimulations.Com > > > > My little car sim screenshots: > > http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm > > > > > >

"Chris Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote ... > Thanks to all who replied; I at least have some options for how to go about > learning, and feel a touch less worried about it. ...one more slightly late suggestion: do your first few practice sessions in a gravel parking lot. If you don't get the coordination of clutch & gas right, all you'll do is spin the tires a bit, not lurch the car. Make your objective to get away cleanly & smoothly without kicking up any gravel, and you've got it! I taught myself and several friends this way - works like a charm... ...Klinn

"Jonny Hodgson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:oAAC8.3381$[email hidden]... > They don't have torque converters, and the driver can decide/program > when *not* to change gear - those are the important bits. > > Jonny OK, but the guy was saying real cars are all manual. If I wanted manual I would buy one. In N.A. all cars come in manual or auto, you have to pay extra for auto and that is what most people opt for. On a side note; there is a show on TV from the UK about bad drivers there, seems to me many of those people just can not coordinate manual shifting with all the other things they have to think about while driving and that is why they are having a problem. If they used auto they could probably drive fine. Manual shifting adds two more tasks to driving (clutch and shifting) that a person must think about, thought that could be better used thinking about safe driving techniques rather than pretending they are a race car driver on busy public roads.

On Fri, 10 May 2002 09:50:30 -0400, "Strider" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Jonny Hodgson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:oAAC8.3381$[email hidden]... >> They don't have torque converters, and the driver can decide/program >> when *not* to change gear - those are the important bits. >> >> Jonny > >OK, but the guy was saying real cars are all manual. If I wanted manual I >would buy one. In N.A. all cars come in manual or auto, you have to pay >extra for auto and that is what most people opt for. > >On a side note; there is a show on TV from the UK about bad drivers there, >seems to me many of those people just can not coordinate manual shifting >with all the other things they have to think about while driving and that is >why they are having a problem. If they used auto they could probably drive >fine. Manual shifting adds two more tasks to driving (clutch and shifting) >that a person must think about, thought that could be better used thinking >about safe driving techniques rather than pretending they are a race car >driver on busy public roads.

Shifting is a "task"? That you have to think about? Bah humbug... You "think about" shifting gear as much as you "think about" steering. It becomes second nature after a couple of hours driving. /petern /driving an AT right now

"Another good piece of advice is dont use the clutch as a 'hill holder", as it is much cheaper to replace brakes than it is to swap a clutch :)" Well said! I hate when I'm in a car and people do that! It drives me crazy! It's funny how people talk about replacing their clutch like it's something you have to do every once in awhile and it's just a common repair. If you learn to drive the thing right, you should only have to replace the clutch maybe every 200,000 miles. Personally, I have never had one go out...ever. GMpartsguy <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:pulC8.2461$[email hidden]...

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> > > > Probably one of the best things you could do to help you learn to drive > > stick is try to get smooth at left-foot braking. If you can do that, it > > seems to help quite a bit when working the clutch., as you're training > > yourself to work your left foot in small increments. > > > > Milhouse > > > > "Chris Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:z3jC8.4067$[email hidden]. > > That's a good one. never thought of that as an aid, even though ive been > doing it all my life. Another good piece of advice is dont use the clutch

as > a 'hill holder", as it is much cheaper to replace brakes than it is toswap > a clutch :) > >

"Peter Nilsson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Shifting is a "task"? That you have to think about? Bah humbug... > You "think about" shifting gear as much as you "think about" steering. > It becomes second nature after a couple of hours driving. It's like patting your head while trying to rub your tummy. Some people just can't do it.

On Fri, 10 May 2002 19:20:55 -0400, "Strider" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Peter Nilsson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Shifting is a "task"? That you have to think about? Bah humbug... >> You "think about" shifting gear as much as you "think about" steering. >> It becomes second nature after a couple of hours driving. > >It's like patting your head while trying to rub your tummy. Some people just >can't do it.

Very bad analogy. Nearly every person that drives a 5 speed (ie their own car) don't even think about. It's very natural.

"Strider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On a side note; there is a show on TV from the UK about bad drivers there, > seems to me many of those people just can not coordinate manual shifting > with all the other things they have to think about while driving and thatis > why they are having a problem. If they used auto they could probably drive > fine. Manual shifting adds two more tasks to driving (clutch and shifting) > that a person must think about, thought that could be better used thinking > about safe driving techniques rather than pretending they are a race car > driver on busy public roads. >The problem for most people (especially girls - and no I am not sexist, it is a fact) is that they don't understand or get taught anything about how a car even fundamentally works. If you understand how a drivetrain works, then you will also straight away be halfway to being able to drive a manual. I love changing gears manually, I think it is a part in the enjoyment of motoring, and I would never go anywhere near an automatic. Driving 'swiftly' down a hedgelined B-road in the UK shifting through gears 2,3 and 4 almost once every second, is incredibly fun, and makes my (admittedly rorty) engine sound fantastic on downshifts. If you can manual shift without even realising it, as a reflex action triggered by the engine revs sounding too high or low, you are safer in a manual than an automatic. You are also doing less damage to the internals of the car (no machine can replicate the infinite levels of feel of a human appendage). It's kinda like ABS. Most drivers are a lot safer with ABS, but some can stop a car sooner without it. One helpful side effect of changing from an auto 'box to a manual is that your ears already know roughly when to change up or down, and so once you know the mechanics of manual shifting, there shouldn't be a problem. Try checking out some sites on the internet about clutch mechanisms and the internal workings of a gearbox. That would help so many learners, but instead they get taught how to pull away on a hill (yes, holding the car on the clutch as they do so :-) -- Nick "The overriding purpose of software is to be useful, rather than correct." John Carmack, id Software