OT: you thought you paid a lot for gas

Check out this video. <http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8454665654910570394&pl=true> He filled up his car for a measily 78 British Pounds. That's a petty $136.31 US! He's not even driving a truck either.

Check out this video. <http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8454665654910570394&pl=true He filled up his car for a measily 78 British Pounds. That's a petty $136.31 US! He's not even driving a truck either.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > Check out this video. > <http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8454665654910570394&pl=true> > He filled up his car for a measily 78 British Pounds. That's a petty > $136.31 US! He's not even driving a truck either. That is cheap - if he did it now, he would be about 92 quid - even normal (not super) petrol is at least 88.9p a litre now in the UK. -- AG Remove removes from address to remove anti-spam measures. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Gauton E-Mail agauton @ postmaster.co.uk Never for me the lowered banner, never the last endeavour! (Damon Hill - 16th June 1999)

Holy cow! How can you guys afford to drive? And here I was complaining about my $48 fill-up.

nathantw schrieb: > Holy cow! How can you guys afford to drive? And here I was complaining > about my $48 fill-up. > Here in Germany 1 gallon unleaded fuel (4,5 litre) is about 7,30$. 1 litre is 1,33 EURO. Thats why we drive smaller cars than the US. Michael

M. Ziegler wrote: > nathantw schrieb: >> Holy cow! How can you guys afford to drive? And here I was >> complaining about my $48 fill-up. >> How many US gallons are you getting for your $48? > Here in Germany 1 gallon unleaded fuel (4,5 litre) is about 7,30$. > 1 litre is 1,33 EURO. Thats why we drive smaller cars than the US. > Yes but an US gallon is 3.7854118 liters so that makes it about ?5.03 or $6.10 per US gallon -- Hasse

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>>> complaining about my $48 fill-up. >>> > > How many US gallons are you getting for your $48? > > Yes but an US gallon is 3.7854118 liters so that makes it about ?5.03 > or $6.10 per US gallon

Oh no, it's definitely not THAT expensive...yet. Right now, for regular gas, it's about $2.89 US in the San Francisco Area, though I have seen over $3. In the summer, or very soon for that matter, it'll be over $3 everywhere. Gas is on it's way up. So, how big is my gas tank? Since I drive a politically-incorrect Jeep my tank is about 15 - 18 gallons. However, at least my truck gets better gas mileage than a supercar. I don't think I could handle 5mpg.

On 12 Apr 2006 06:38:03 -0700, nathantw wrote: > Check out this video. ><http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8454665654910570394&pl=true> > He filled up his car for a measily 78 British Pounds. That's a petty > $136.31 US! He's not even driving a truck either. > From what I've heard, living costs in the UK have been going through the roof for at least a decade now. I've always wondered how people can still afford to live there TBH ;-P Cheers, uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Uwe =?iso-8859-15?Q?Sch=FCrkamp?= <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: > From what I've heard, living costs in the UK have been going through the > roof for at least a decade now. I've always wondered how people can > still afford to live there TBH ;-P > > Cheers, uwe > i cant afford it, hoping in few years to be in Oz. fuel is less than half price, house prices more affordable and local tax is less than half as well. UK is now most taxed country in the world and aint far behind iceland for being the most expensive place to live. this goverment sux. Tango

>UK is now most taxed country in the world and aint far behind iceland >for being the most expensive place to live. this goverment sux. >Tango Perhaps it might be time for a modern Boston Tea Party, except this time it'll take place in England. "Taxation without Representation!" There's a reason why we Yanks revolted way back in the 1700's. However, before you start your own revolution, note that the United States is catching up to you in taxes. It won't be long before 40% of our paychecks goes to the country. In Canada 45% or so goes to the government, but at least they have "free" healthcare. The US will be taxed their rate without the healthcare. Speaking of taxes, (if you live in the US) did you know that all those taxes that you have on your cellphone bill are actually tax increases by the government? It's their little way of increasing taxes without having to put it to vote or going to the people for their approval.

"nathantw" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1144948932.961299.7880 @i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com: > Speaking of taxes, (if you live in the US) did you know that all those > taxes that you have on your cellphone bill are actually tax increases > by the government? It's their little way of increasing taxes without > having to put it to vote or going to the people for their approval. in the UK we call them stealth taxes, like putting V.A.T. on car insurance, airport tax(you get taxed for leaving the damn country now!). bloody goverment voted that tax payers should fill a 50 million pound black hole in the MP`s pension fund. if you take a pension `holiday` then you should expect your pension to be less, fucking twats wants us to pay for there pension `holiday`. BASTARDS ! Tango oh and petrol is now near the 4 pound a gallon mark.thats approx $6.40

[email hidden] (Tango) wrote: > this goverment sux. We get the government we deserve. This government is guilty of many things, but it's biggest crime is trying to give the UK what it wants rather than what it needs. That's expensive, both financially and morally, but it does seem to help win elections. Which takes me back to my first sentence again. Andrew McP

[email hidden] (nathantw) wrote: > It's their little way of increasing taxes without > having to put it to vote or going to the people for their approval. News Flash: People don't like paying tax! Who'd have thought it. I suppose all this sneaky taxation explains why the USA's Federal surplus is so massive. Heck, they must be swimming in money down in Washington! Trouble is, it's Chinese money, not yours :-). You might want to pay a bit more tax some time and buy your country back. Mind you, the UK's heading the same way at the moment. I'm not a big fan of longterm borrowing to keep the economy afloat. It's living a lie and selling your grandchildren's tomorrow to subsidise your today. Andrew McP

[email hidden] (Tango) wrote: > oh and petrol is now near the 4 pound a gallon mark. > thats approx $6.40 Ask a few of our American friends what they and/or their employer has to pay for health insurance. That's a hidden "tax" as well if you want to compare like for like. We're nowhere near as badly off as we like to think we are. Still, Brits always were world class complainers. Ask the Aussies. ;-) Andrew McP

I _already_ pay 40% in the US, and that's just income taxes. Add to that $3500 a year in propert tax, $800 a year in Car taxes, sales taxes, dog tag taxes, sin taxes (cigarettes, bear, etc...) plus others I can't even remember. Then add the Social Security Tax (which I have no problem paying - I'll need it some day). Then there's the utility taxes. My $17 a month phone bill is actually $34 a month after taxes. I kid you not. The taxes are half the cost. The US ain't cheap, and we don't have much in the way of social programs except Social Security and Medicare, and that's not for everyone of course. Eventually, there will be a tax to pay off this massive deficit our wonderful president has created for us. When the bill comes for that, it's gonna hurt bad. I guess we can call it the Bush War Tax, or BWT for short. The Bill's a comin'. It won't be sent until he's sunning on th beach though. -Larry "nathantw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> >UK is now most taxed country in the world and aint far behind iceland >>for being the most expensive place to live. this goverment sux. >>Tango > > Perhaps it might be time for a modern Boston Tea Party, except this > time it'll take place in England. "Taxation without Representation!" > There's a reason why we Yanks revolted way back in the 1700's. > > However, before you start your own revolution, note that the United > States is catching up to you in taxes. It won't be long before 40% of > our paychecks goes to the country. In Canada 45% or so goes to the > government, but at least they have "free" healthcare. The US will be > taxed their rate without the healthcare. > > Speaking of taxes, (if you live in the US) did you know that all those > taxes that you have on your cellphone bill are actually tax increases > by the government? It's their little way of increasing taxes without > having to put it to vote or going to the people for their approval. >

Andrew brings up a very valid point. Rule of thumb. Hire someone, and say their salary is $50,000. It actually costs an employer about $100,000 a year to hire that person after health care and other taxes. -Larry "Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> [email hidden] (Tango) wrote: > >> oh and petrol is now near the 4 pound a gallon mark. >> thats approx $6.40 > > Ask a few of our American friends what they and/or their employer has to > pay for health insurance. That's a hidden "tax" as well if you want to > compare like for like. We're nowhere near as badly off as we like to > think we are. > > Still, Brits always were world class complainers. Ask the Aussies. ;-) > > Andrew McP

Speaking of Social Security in the US, you know how they're always complaining about how they need to "fix" it so another generation will get it? Did they ever think that perhaps NOT BORROWING from the funds and perhaps paying back what they took would fix it? If the government never started "borrowing" from the funds we wouldn't have had the problems we're having now. I guess that huge amount of money just "sitting there" waiting for a generation to retire and claim their money was too tempting. One other thing that's ridiculous was the fact that a lot of states wanted to have a Lottery system and one of the big selling points was that a huge part was suppose to support education by giving them 40% or something like that. Well, at least in California, the stupid politicians saw how much money the schools were getting from the lottery so what did they do? Cut the school budget and let the lottery make up for what they just took out. The problem with that was that lottery sales declined and less money went towards the schools. Now the public schools are worse off than they were before the lottery even started! There are hardly any after-school activities and that includes sports, band, or anything else because there's no money.

Larry, I would gladly pay just $3,500 in property taxes. I'm up to $6,500. As for Social Security, I've been paying into the system for 40 years, and they just keep on upping the retirement age to get back what IS rightfully mine. For you younger folks, you better hope that they do in fact change the system and allow you to put your SS money in a individual retirement account. Other wise you just might have to wait until your in your 80's to collect the full monthly allotment. Joel Willstein "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:vjz%f.20027$s%6.10322@dukeread02... I _already_ pay 40% in the US, and that's just income taxes. Add to that $3500 a year in propert tax, $800 a year in Car taxes, sales taxes, dog tag taxes, sin taxes (cigarettes, bear, etc...) plus others I can't even remember. Then add the Social Security Tax (which I have no problem paying - I'll need it some day). Then there's the utility taxes. My $17 a month phone bill is actually $34 a month after taxes. I kid you not. The taxes are half the cost. The US ain't cheap, and we don't have much in the way of social programs except Social Security and Medicare, and that's not for everyone of course. Eventually, there will be a tax to pay off this massive deficit our wonderful president has created for us. When the bill comes for that, it's gonna hurt bad. I guess we can call it the Bush War Tax, or BWT for short. The Bill's a comin'. It won't be sent until he's sunning on th beach though. -Larry "nathantw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> >UK is now most taxed country in the world and aint far behind iceland >>for being the most expensive place to live. this goverment sux. >>Tango > > Perhaps it might be time for a modern Boston Tea Party, except this > time it'll take place in England. "Taxation without Representation!" > There's a reason why we Yanks revolted way back in the 1700's. > > However, before you start your own revolution, note that the United > States is catching up to you in taxes. It won't be long before 40% of > our paychecks goes to the country. In Canada 45% or so goes to the > government, but at least they have "free" healthcare. The US will be > taxed their rate without the healthcare. > > Speaking of taxes, (if you live in the US) did you know that all those > taxes that you have on your cellphone bill are actually tax increases > by the government? It's their little way of increasing taxes without > having to put it to vote or going to the people for their approval. >

nathantw wrote:

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> Speaking of Social Security in the US, you know how they're always > complaining about how they need to "fix" it so another generation will > get it? Did they ever think that perhaps NOT BORROWING from the funds > and perhaps paying back what they took would fix it? If the government > never started "borrowing" from the funds we wouldn't have had the > problems we're having now. I guess that huge amount of money just > "sitting there" waiting for a generation to retire and claim their > money was too tempting.

Although you're right about this, I've got to object to the use of the word borrowing. That money is gone, finished, 100% spent the second it comes in. Only the Congress, the Mafia, or an Enron accountant could call it borrowed and keep a straight face. Don McCorkle

Joel Willstein enlightened us with: > Larry, > > I would gladly pay just $3,500 in property taxes. I'm up to > $6,500. As for Social Security, I've been paying into the system > for 40 years, and they just keep on upping the retirement age to get > back what IS rightfully mine. WAAAA! People live longer now. When the dumb-fucking plan was created in the Stone ages, most men didnt live past 50 or 60. So few actually were living past 60, it made sense. After all, it was all a plan, created by the wealthy, look at how it fucking works: The Bosses, who had cushy management jobs all thier life, lived long enough to spend several hundred or thousand coal miner laborer's lifetime contributions.. BTW, its been that way for fuckin years. What is worse, is fucking democrats think they fooled you all, and I agree look at all the IDIOTS spending money they havent made yet? (credi cards and other shit). With the current Social Security plan has been since it's conception that if you had jobs where you have gym's and shit like that you will probably get some retirement, if like my old job, it (now) includes things like gasmasks, enviro-suits plus daily showers and monthly blood tests, well I wouldnt bet I'd be spending your contribution, but hopefully my wife will. Shit man, wake the hell up. For you younger folks, you better hope

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> that they do in fact change the system and allow you to put your SS > money in a individual retirement account. Other wise you just might > have to wait until your in your 80's to collect the full monthly > allotment. > > Joel Willstein > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:vjz%f.20027$s%6.10322@dukeread02... > I _already_ pay 40% in the US, and that's just income taxes. > > Add to that $3500 a year in propert tax, $800 a year in Car taxes, > sales > taxes, dog tag taxes, sin taxes (cigarettes, bear, etc...) plus > others I > can't even remember. > > Then add the Social Security Tax (which I have no problem paying - > I'll need > it some day). > > Then there's the utility taxes. My $17 a month phone bill is > actually $34 a > month after taxes. I kid you not. The taxes are half the cost. > > The US ain't cheap, and we don't have much in the way of social > programs > except Social Security and Medicare, and that's not for everyone of > course. > > Eventually, there will be a tax to pay off this massive deficit our > wonderful president has created for us. When the bill comes for > that, it's > gonna hurt bad. I guess we can call it the Bush War Tax, or BWT for > short. > > The Bill's a comin'. It won't be sent until he's sunning on th beach > though. > > -Larry > > "nathantw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >>> UK is now most taxed country in the world and aint far behind >>> iceland for being the most expensive place to live. this goverment >>> sux. >>> Tango >> >> Perhaps it might be time for a modern Boston Tea Party, except this >> time it'll take place in England. "Taxation without Representation!" >> There's a reason why we Yanks revolted way back in the 1700's. >> >> However, before you start your own revolution, note that the United >> States is catching up to you in taxes. It won't be long before 40% of >> our paychecks goes to the country. In Canada 45% or so goes to the >> government, but at least they have "free" healthcare. The US will be >> taxed their rate without the healthcare. >> >> Speaking of taxes, (if you live in the US) did you know that all >> those taxes that you have on your cellphone bill are actually tax >> increases by the government? It's their little way of increasing >> taxes without having to put it to vote or going to the people for >> their approval.

[email hidden] (PlowBoy) wrote: > wake the hell up. The whole retirement/pension thing is going to have to change radically in the Western world over the next 20 years or so. Well, unless bird flu gets it's act together and kills a few hundred million. Then the pension funds and social security systems might be able to support those who are left. Until then we have to get used to the idea of working longer and longer, just as we've been fortunate enough to expect to live longer and longer. There will be a lot more wailing and gnashing of teeth before this is accepted though. Andrew McP

On 13 Apr 2006 10:22:13 -0700, "nathantw" <[email hidden]> wrote: > In Canada 45% or so goes to the >government, but at least they have "free" healthcare. Depends what Province you live it. In B.C. we pay over fifity bucks per month on top of the high taxes for health care. In Ontario it was free when I was there but the quality of service was really poor too.

Enos Nivek wrote:

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> On 13 Apr 2006 10:22:13 -0700, "nathantw" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > >> In Canada 45% or so goes to the >> government, but at least they have "free" healthcare. > > Depends what Province you live it. In B.C. we pay over fifity bucks > per month on top of the high taxes for health care. In Ontario it was > free when I was there but the quality of service was really poor too.

Perhaps the taxes are high in Canada but if you consider what we pay in the USA for health insurance I think you folks up north have a better deal. My friend had a stroke a few days ago and now he will have a bill for $500.000 . Now if you look at the insurance cost of 450.00 to 1000.00 a month you can see we are getting raped in the US . Also we pay much more for our drugs. I'm starting to consider moving to Canada because of the fact that our cost just keep going up and up . Here in California a house is about $500.000 and we pay as much as $3.00 a gallon for gas . Our food costs are going up and up and it's getting stupid to live here.

You can't take someone who has been paying into the retirement system for 40 years, depending on it being there, and then saying... Never Mind.... That's a load of shit. -Larry "Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> [email hidden] (PlowBoy) wrote: > >> wake the hell up. > > The whole retirement/pension thing is going to have to change radically > in the Western world over the next 20 years or so. Well, unless bird flu > gets it's act together and kills a few hundred million. Then the pension > funds and social security systems might be able to support those who are > left. Until then we have to get used to the idea of working longer and > longer, just as we've been fortunate enough to expect to live longer and > longer. > > There will be a lot more wailing and gnashing of teeth before this is > accepted though. > > Andrew McP

> Here in California a house is about $500.000 and we pay as much as $3.00 a gallon for gas . Our food > costs are going up and up and it's getting > stupid to live here. Amen to that! By the way, $500,000 will buy a 1 or 2 bedroom bungalo unless you want to commute 1.5 hours each way to work then you'll be lucky to buy a 2 bedroom house. A true house, at least in San Francisco, will cost about $1.2 million.

On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:12:59 GMT, Online-Racer <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Perhaps the taxes are high in Canada but if you consider what we pay in >the USA for health insurance I think you folks up north have a better >deal. My friend had a stroke a few days ago and now he will have a bill >for $500.000 . Now if you look at the insurance cost of 450.00 to >1000.00 a month you can see we are getting raped in the US . Also we >pay much more for our drugs. I'm starting to consider moving to Canada >because of the fact that our cost just keep going up and up . > >Here in California a house is about $500.000 and we pay as much as $3.00 >a gallon for gas . Our food costs are going up and up and it's getting >stupid to live here.

Agree, it's terrible to lose your health but then to go broke because of it too says a lot about the U.S. Lots of countries in western Europe have free/low cost healthcare too.

[email hidden] (Larry) wrote: > 40 years That's the problem. Only Polyanna can look 40 years ahead and know everything will be all right. People were sold a lie and they'd better get used to it. The golden age of retirement is gone, the baby boomers (and at 43 I *just* qualify) are about to start hammering nails in its coffin. I'm preparing myself to have to work until I'm at least 70, if I live that long. Andrew McP

Andrew MacPherson wrote:

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> [email hidden] (Larry) wrote: > >> 40 years > > That's the problem. Only Polyanna can look 40 years ahead and know > everything will be all right. People were sold a lie and they'd better > get used to it. The golden age of retirement is gone, the baby boomers > (and at 43 I *just* qualify) are about to start hammering nails in its > coffin. > > I'm preparing myself to have to work until I'm at least 70, if I live > that long. > > Andrew McP >

I'm seriously pondering moving to Canada for the fact that we in the US will never get any help from our government. And we continue to vote in the same creeps over and over. Both parties are the problem and they will never deal with the Medical issues. Sure we pay a tad less in taxes but we pay and pay and pay more and more for everything else. Again $500.000 homes and $10.000 a day hospitals and health insurance that costs more than $400.00 a month per person . I'm 44 and I doubt that I will ever see a retirement. I only wish that we Americans would wake up and vote some real people into office that would help the people who pay there wage.

[email hidden] (Online-Racer) wrote: > I only wish that we Americans This isn't a problem for the USA, it's a problem for every nation where people expect to retire up to 20 years before they can realistically expect to die. If you step back from that and look at it rationally, it's insane unless we plan to invest *much* more of our lifetime's wages in a pension fund (whether that's via taxation or investment). Basically living longer is killing us financially. You never could have your cake and eat it, but for a while we were led to believe it was possible. Personally I never believed it, which is why I have no pension. You can't lose what you never had. :-) Andrew McP

"Online-Racer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MWY0g.16707$[email hidden]...

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> Andrew MacPherson wrote: > > [email hidden] (Larry) wrote: > > > >> 40 years > > > > That's the problem. Only Polyanna can look 40 years ahead and know > > everything will be all right. People were sold a lie and they'd better > > get used to it. The golden age of retirement is gone, the baby boomers > > (and at 43 I *just* qualify) are about to start hammering nails in its > > coffin. > > > > I'm preparing myself to have to work until I'm at least 70, if I live > > that long. > > > > Andrew McP > > > I'm seriously pondering moving to Canada for the fact that we in the US > will never get any help from our government.

<snip> And right there is the crux of your problem; expecting the govt to help, etc. That *creates* problems, not solves them. I.e., anything you'd like the govt to do, whether it's build widgets or provide health care, will turn into just another blackhole of wasted money, like so many other programs......money via your taxes. Myself, I'd rather decide where *my* money gets spent, and how, than some bloated, inefficient bureaucracy. If you think your health care is expensive now (and it is, no doubt), wait until taxes start paying for it. For that matter, look at this years Federal health care programs, especially Medicare. Rounded off, it's 2006 budget is 200 billion dollars. Take the US population. Rounded off, it is 300 million. Do the math. And remember, obviously, a large part of the population isn't even on Medicare. Without going into a debate as to the necessity or not of Medicare, the above figures show there is obviously HUGE amounts of tax dollars waste. And that's just ONE program. It wasn't long ago (in the US) when expecting the govt to solve one's problems was an alien concept. Unfortunately, no longer the case.

It's not expecting the government to solve your problems at all. It's paying into a system your entire life, and reasonably expecting it to be there for you when the time comes. Social Security and Medicare aren't much different than Insurance programs. Nobody is asking to get everything for nothing. People PAID for it their entire lives. -Larry "James Promme" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_ha1g.3106$[email hidden]... > It wasn't long ago (in the US) when expecting the govt to solve one's > problems was an alien concept. Unfortunately, no longer the case.

"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ubb1g.23819$s%6.4477@dukeread02... > It's not expecting the government to solve your problems at all. > > It's paying into a system your entire life, and reasonably expecting it to > be there for you when the time comes. > > Social Security and Medicare aren't much different than Insuranceprograms. > Nobody is asking to get everything for nothing. People PAID for it their > entire lives. > > -Larry They're not even close to insurance programs. I can *choose* which insurance program I want to use, and what parts of that program I want to use. Hell, I can even choose not to have insurance at all. Besides, I don't see SS or Medicare even mentioned in the orig posters post, but I did see "<snip>...we in the US will never get any help from our government....<snip>" And of course, neither SS nor MC were ever meant to be the end all to anyone's retirement/health problems anyway. They are meant as supplements, and that fact was never hidden from anyone. But if you want the govt to solve your problems, I guess you could look at them as the end all instead <g>

Larry wrote:

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> It's not expecting the government to solve your problems at all. > > It's paying into a system your entire life, and reasonably expecting it to > be there for you when the time comes. > > Social Security and Medicare aren't much different than Insurance programs. > Nobody is asking to get everything for nothing. People PAID for it their > entire lives. > > -Larry

It's amazing how many people think that their Social Security/Medicare payments go into some sort of trust fund from which they expect to draw when they reach retirement age. And that the system is broken because THE MAN came along and stole their money. The fact is that these programs are taxes, and as soon as the money is paid in it goes back out the door to pay someone else's bills. That's fine for as long as the retiree:worker ratio stays the same as it was decades ago, but we're long past that point. The goalposts have moved. Fix: raise the retirement age, simple really. And save for your own retirement FFS. Even if you get your SS checks you'll be living in poverty if that's all you rely on.

I give up on this one. No one wants to be sensible. Politics and Simracing just don't mix. -Larry "James Promme" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Snb1g.3112$[email hidden]...

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> "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ubb1g.23819$s%6.4477@dukeread02... > They're not even close to insurance programs. I can *choose* which > insurance program I want to use, and what parts of that program I want to > use. Hell, I can even choose not to have insurance at all. > > Besides, I don't see SS or Medicare even mentioned in the orig posters > post, but I did see "<snip>...we in the US will never get any help from > our > government....<snip>" > > And of course, neither SS nor MC were ever meant to be the end all to > anyone's retirement/health problems anyway. They are meant as > supplements, > and that fact was never hidden from anyone. > > But if you want the govt to solve your problems, I guess you could > look > at them as the end all instead <g> > > >