BOOOO-OOOO-OOOO-OOOOO-OOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOO!!!
That was for Schumacher!
and to think that Rubens has a guaranteed 2 more years of this to look
forward to.
elrikk
OK, there are reasons that I never was a big Ferreri fan ;O)
Notable threadOutrage over Ferrari team orders at 2002 Austrian GP
After Rubens Barrichello moved over on the final straight to hand Michael Schumacher victory at the 2002 Austrian Grand Prix, most posters condemned Ferrari, Todt, Brawn and Schumacher, and several vowed to stop watching F1. Some compared it to the 1998 Coulthard-Hakkinen incident and NASCAR finishes, while a minority, including David G Fisher, called the reaction overblown since team orders were longstanding. Later posts debated historical team orders and whether drivers could have refused.
real motorsport
Automated summary.
"elrikk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:enuD8.2671$[email hidden]...
> BOOOO-OOOO-OOOO-OOOOO-OOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOO!!!
>
> That was for Schumacher!
>
I think Jean Todt and Ross Brawn made a disgraceful decision in asking
Rubens to move over. I also think it was disgraceful that Schumacher made
the move for the win. All 3 of them fully deserved the boos they got from
the crowd, something I have never heard before. Today they have made a
mockery of Formula 1.
Phil
--
Racesim Central Administrator
http://www.racesimcentral.com
What Ferrari did denied all the Austrian fans of the joy they would have
experienced if Rubens had won. As stoic as he was during the press
conference, team orders defeat the purpose of racing. The best man and car
should win. I hope Ferrari learns from this.
This is why most Americans will never understand or enjoy F1, all they will
see is that Shucey was handed the win and didn't earn it.
Wayne
(A very irate American F1 Fan)
"Phil Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:ablruj$j9ec1$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (19 lines)
> "elrikk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:enuD8.2671$[email hidden]... > > BOOOO-OOOO-OOOO-OOOOO-OOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOO!!! > > > > That was for Schumacher! > > > > I think Jean Todt and Ross Brawn made a disgraceful decision in asking > Rubens to move over. I also think it was disgraceful that Schumacher made > the move for the win. All 3 of them fully deserved the boos they got from > the crowd, something I have never heard before. Today they have made a > mockery of Formula 1. > > Phil > -- > Racesim Central Administrator > http://www.racesimcentral.com > > Agreed, that was b.s., especially for the win.
-John
"elrikk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:enuD8.2671$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (13 lines)
> BOOOO-OOOO-OOOO-OOOOO-OOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOO!!! > > That was for Schumacher! > > and to think that Rubens has a guaranteed 2 more years of this to look > forward to. > > elrikk > > OK, there are reasons that I never was a big Ferreri fan ;O) > > >
"elrikk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:enuD8.2671$[email hidden]...
> BOOOO-OOOO-OOOO-OOOOO-OOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOO!!! Boo indeed.
I just posted to rec.autos.sport.f1 with the following....
After Coulthard let Hackers past at the Aussie GP in 1998 the FIA Made a
ruleing reagrding tactics like today's.
These are direct quotes from the 1998-1999 Formula One Yearbook I have
infront of me now..
Page 104
"The week before the Brazilian race, the FIA had put out a statement
declaring that teams could no longer arbitrarily decide the finishing order
of their drivers"
"In Interlagos, Bernie Ecclestone declared that the two McLaren would be
disqualified if they adoped a similar tactic to the one used in Austrailia"
So Going on that Rule - congratulations to Juan Pablo Montoya for a great
race victory. However - I fully expect the result to stand thus proving
the FIA have a fantastic ability to simply 'forget' rules as and when
applicable to improve Ferrari's performance.
We saw the death of Formula One today.
Doug
Phil Lee wrote:
My thoughts exactly Phil, MS didn't *have* to take that win when it was
offered to him, his position in the Ferrari team will never be in
question, he could have afforded to make that gesture towards Rubens
even if the order came from Jean Todt himself and he might have taken
some heat over it
Schumacher himself might not have had anything to do with it, but a true
sportsman, especially one with so much success to his name already,
would never have accepted it
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
http://www.theuspits.com
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--
Quoted text (13 lines)
> > "elrikk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:enuD8.2671$[email hidden]... > > BOOOO-OOOO-OOOO-OOOOO-OOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOO!!! > > > > That was for Schumacher! > > > > I think Jean Todt and Ross Brawn made a disgraceful decision in asking > Rubens to move over. I also think it was disgraceful that Schumacher made > the move for the win. All 3 of them fully deserved the boos they got from > the crowd, something I have never heard before. Today they have made a > mockery of Formula 1.
Imo this decision came from luca demontezemelo. He should take all the
blame, he's there for the good of ferrari but is dragging the name into the
dirt.
"elrikk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:enuD8.2671$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (13 lines)
> BOOOO-OOOO-OOOO-OOOOO-OOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOO!!! > > That was for Schumacher! > > and to think that Rubens has a guaranteed 2 more years of this to look > forward to. > > elrikk > > OK, there are reasons that I never was a big Ferreri fan ;O) > > >
"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
made
> > the move for the win. All 3 of them fully deserved the boos they gotfrom
I hear what you're saying Goy, but I doubt if many people in that position
would have done as suggested. To get to be that good, takes such drive,
dedication, etc., that being a "nice guy/sportsman" rarely fits into the
equation. Anything for the win, period, is the usual line of thinking.
I sure can't think of anyone that would have done it, past or present, of
the same caliber of MS skill-wise.
Not defending it, or am a MS fan, just my .02 :)
-John
Quoted text (11 lines)
> Phil Lee wrote: > > > > "elrikk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:enuD8.2671$[email hidden]... > > > BOOOO-OOOO-OOOO-OOOOO-OOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOO!!! > > > > > > That was for Schumacher! > > > > > > > I think Jean Todt and Ross Brawn made a disgraceful decision in asking > > Rubens to move over. I also think it was disgraceful that SchumacherQuoted text (21 lines)
> > the crowd, something I have never heard before. Today they have made a > > mockery of Formula 1. > > My thoughts exactly Phil, MS didn't *have* to take that win when it was > offered to him, his position in the Ferrari team will never be in > question, he could have afforded to make that gesture towards Rubens > even if the order came from Jean Todt himself and he might have taken > some heat over it > > Schumacher himself might not have had anything to do with it, but a true > sportsman, especially one with so much success to his name already, > would never have accepted it > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--
"elrikk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:enuD8.2671$[email hidden]...
> BOOOO-OOOO-OOOO-OOOOO-OOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOO!!!
>I second that Boo and here it is in my maden language :
Chouuuuuuuu-ouuuuuu-ouuuuuuu-ouuuuuux!!!, Hiboux, cailloux etc.
"Phil Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:ablruj$j9ec1$1@ID-
That's a good point, while two way telemetry could have shut off Ruben's
car if he tried to say "no", nothing could have stopped Michael saying he'd
park the car if he truly disagreed with the team orders.
It's like we're back in the 1950's again.
cheers
John
Quoted text (12 lines)
> I think Jean Todt and Ross Brawn made a disgraceful decision in asking > Rubens to move over. I also think it was disgraceful that Schumacher made > the move for the win. All 3 of them fully deserved the boos they got from > the crowd, something I have never heard before. Today they have made a > mockery of Formula 1. > > Phil > -- > Racesim Central Administrator > http://www.racesimcentral.com > >Here here, Coulthard and Hackers apologised for what they did and it should
never have happened again. As it is Ferarri this time I suspect it will all
get pushed under the carpet. F1 really died today, it's a joke.
Andi.
"Douglas Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:abltb1$ja040$[email hidden]...
order
> of their drivers"
>
> "In Interlagos, Bernie Ecclestone declared that the two McLaren would be
> disqualified if they adoped a similar tactic to the one used inAustrailia"
Quoted text (17 lines)
> > "elrikk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:enuD8.2671$[email hidden]... > > BOOOO-OOOO-OOOO-OOOOO-OOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOO!!! > Boo indeed. > > I just posted to rec.autos.sport.f1 with the following.... > > After Coulthard let Hackers past at the Aussie GP in 1998 the FIA Made a > ruleing reagrding tactics like today's. > > These are direct quotes from the 1998-1999 Formula One Yearbook I have > infront of me now.. > Page 104 > > "The week before the Brazilian race, the FIA had put out a statement > declaring that teams could no longer arbitrarily decide the finishingQuoted text (14 lines)
> > > So Going on that Rule - congratulations to Juan Pablo Montoya for a great > race victory. However - I fully expect the result to stand thus proving > the FIA have a fantastic ability to simply 'forget' rules as and when > applicable to improve Ferrari's performance. > > We saw the death of Formula One today. > > > Doug > > >
"Dan Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:abltms$j5cq3$[email hidden]...
>
> Imo this decision came from luca demontezemelo. He should take all the
> blame, he's there for the good of ferrari but is dragging the name intothe
> dirt.
Agreed but Schumacher's car has brakes that are every bit as effective as
Ruben's.
He could have used them. Or am I being a bit idealistic ? ;o)
elrikk
PS I'm a Montrealer who could be accused of still remembering the attempt
to bump Villeneuve off the track to cinch a drivers championship and hence
of being bit biased in this issue. But I don't think I am.
"Dan Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:abltms$j5cq3$[email hidden]...
>
> Imo this decision came from luca demontezemelo. He should take all the
> blame, he's there for the good of ferrari but is dragging the name intothe
> dirt.
I think you could be right about the origin of the decision, but have to say
that Todt, Brawn and Schumacher must all shoulder part of the blame for
their complicity.
Even from one who's no great fan of Rubens, I found it disgraceful.
Pitiful racing, don't think I'll be getting up early to catch the next one
live.
J. Janasov
"Eden" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:C2vD8.8490$0q1.106350@charlie...
Quoted text (10 lines)
> > "elrikk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:enuD8.2671$[email hidden]... > > BOOOO-OOOO-OOOO-OOOOO-OOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOO!!! > > > I second that Boo and here it is in my maden language : > > Chouuuuuuuu-ouuuuuu-ouuuuuuu-ouuuuuux!!!, Hiboux, cailloux etc. > >You are probably right Doug, what a sham... last time I get up at 7 a.m.
on my only day off to watch a predetermined outcome!
Edward
Douglas Ellison wrote:
--
Commissioner
Middle-Aged Racers Association (MARA)
Quoted text (37 lines)
> "elrikk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:enuD8.2671$[email hidden]... > >>BOOOO-OOOO-OOOO-OOOOO-OOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOO!!! >> > Boo indeed. > > I just posted to rec.autos.sport.f1 with the following.... > > After Coulthard let Hackers past at the Aussie GP in 1998 the FIA Made a > ruleing reagrding tactics like today's. > > These are direct quotes from the 1998-1999 Formula One Yearbook I have > infront of me now.. > Page 104 > > "The week before the Brazilian race, the FIA had put out a statement > declaring that teams could no longer arbitrarily decide the finishing order > of their drivers" > > "In Interlagos, Bernie Ecclestone declared that the two McLaren would be > disqualified if they adoped a similar tactic to the one used in Austrailia" > > > So Going on that Rule - congratulations to Juan Pablo Montoya for a great > race victory. However - I fully expect the result to stand thus proving > the FIA have a fantastic ability to simply 'forget' rules as and when > applicable to improve Ferrari's performance. > > We saw the death of Formula One today. > > > Doug > > > >
What a shame.
Ferrari are all about the passion of motor-sport - that's the reason that
the Tifosi make up over half the crowd at every race. Today they were only
concerned with the arithmetic. Distinctly un-cool move.
This is not the first time that Ferrari has done this in Austria. Last year
or the year before, Ruben's was told to give way to Schumacher when running
2nd. Bernie and his fellow cronies choose to ignore that manufactured
result. I am sure that they will not review this one either.
Glenn
> What a shame.
>
> Ferrari are all about the passion of motor-sport - that's the reason that
> the Tifosi make up over half the crowd at every race. Today they were only
> concerned with the arithmetic. Distinctly un-cool move.
>
And I think the Tifosi were booing the loudest. They know when they've been conned.
It will take a while for Ferrari to come back from this sham. MS is my favourite driver,
but I can't understand how he let this happen. Surely he has some morals.
"Wayne M. Grenon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:ovuD8.1212$[email hidden]...
> What Ferrari did denied all the Austrian fans of the joy they would have
> experienced if Rubens had won. As stoic as he was during the press
> conference, team orders defeat the purpose of racing. The best man andcar
> should win. I hope Ferrari learns from this.
>
> This is why most Americans will never understand or enjoy F1, all theywill
> see is that Shucey was handed the win and didn't earn it.
OTOH, there's a large WWF audience that might appreciate it
> BOOOO-OOOO-OOOO-OOOOO-OOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOO!!!
I have to agree, what a disgrace. It could not have come at a worse time for
F1 either. This has been some of the most boring races to watch, and then to
have a hard earned victory taken away. Disgraceful, thats all it is. I'm not
sure I'm going to wake up at 6:30 in the morning to watch this crap anymore.
I was a big Ferrari fan, and a big Schumacher fan, it's real hard for me to
call myself that now. The FIA has to step in. They can't let this continue.
No one will continue to watch this disgrace.
"nobody special" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:UZvD8.110690$[email hidden]...
LOL, snort, cough, spit-up . . . .
Damn! And that was a good keyboard too! ;O)
elrikk
Quoted text (15 lines)
> > "Wayne M. Grenon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ovuD8.1212$[email hidden]... > > What Ferrari did denied all the Austrian fans of the joy they would have > > experienced if Rubens had won. As stoic as he was during the press > > conference, team orders defeat the purpose of racing. The best man and > car > > should win. I hope Ferrari learns from this. > > > > This is why most Americans will never understand or enjoy F1, all they > will > > see is that Shucey was handed the win and didn't earn it. > > OTOH, there's a large WWF audience that might appreciate it >"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in
Nigel Mansell, in an interview, referred to the Australian GP that cost him
the world championship- he only needed to finish third in the race to
secure the title. He said it would have been easy to just rest his head
and not move while in his stopped car, which would have caused a red flag
given the circumstances at the time. The classification for the previous
lap would have seen him crowned world champion.
Nigel didn't do it, because he is a true champion. But as others have
said, these team orders have been around for as long as teams have. I
can't see the point in fuming about it now, while remembering the "good old
days".
cheers
John
Quoted text (14 lines)
> I hear what you're saying Goy, but I doubt if many people in that > position > would have done as suggested. To get to be that good, takes such > drive, dedication, etc., that being a "nice guy/sportsman" rarely fits > into the equation. Anything for the win, period, is the usual line of > thinking. > I sure can't think of anyone that would have done it, past or > present, of > the same caliber of MS skill-wise. > > Not defending it, or am a MS fan, just my .02 :) > > -John >"Wayne M. Grenon" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:ovuD8.1212$[email hidden]:
Actually today's fiasco reminded me of a good percentage of the NASCAR
races I've watched, in terms of fixing who gets to win.
cheers
John
Quoted text (11 lines)
> What Ferrari did denied all the Austrian fans of the joy they would > have experienced if Rubens had won. As stoic as he was during the > press conference, team orders defeat the purpose of racing. The best > man and car should win. I hope Ferrari learns from this. > > This is why most Americans will never understand or enjoy F1, all they > will see is that Shucey was handed the win and didn't earn it. > > Wayne > (A very irate American F1 Fan) >
John Pancoast wrote:
I fear you are right, but to me this is the stuff that separates
excellent drivers from great sportsmen, and call me naive, but I do
think they exist out there
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
"The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels"
--Groucho Marx--
Quoted text (9 lines)
> > I hear what you're saying Goy, but I doubt if many people in that position > would have done as suggested. To get to be that good, takes such drive, > dedication, etc., that being a "nice guy/sportsman" rarely fits into the > equation. Anything for the win, period, is the usual line of thinking. > I sure can't think of anyone that would have done it, past or present, of > the same caliber of MS skill-wise. > > Not defending it, or am a MS fan, just my .02 :)To be frank Goy, I reallyu dont give a hoot of who's fault it was... it
sucked bigtime and really show what F1 is today... if tyouy want to win you
can only afford to back one horse.... meaning that who ever rides beside MS
will always suffer.
MS himself should have seen this coming and if it felt this bad - he should
have let Rubens take the win.
MS suck - GO RUBENS!
One thing for sure is that now everyone know why he win so many races.....
--
ed_
That passion died years ago my friend... F1 is nothing more than a business
and has been so for many many years. It's sad - but it's true.
--
ed_
"Jim Seamus" said:
>
> What a shame.
>
> Ferrari are all about the passion of motor-sport - that's the reason that
> the Tifosi make up over half the crowd at every race. Today they were only
> concerned with the arithmetic. Distinctly un-cool move.
>
>
About 20 years ago, at Zolder :(
Wayne Hutchison
"Ed Solheim" <edwins[ REMOVE ]@[ THIS ].no> wrote in message
news:xixD8.13598$[email hidden]...
> That passion died years ago my friend... F1 is nothing more than abusiness
that
> > the Tifosi make up over half the crowd at every race. Today they wereonly
> > concerned with the arithmetic. Distinctly un-cool move.
> >
> >
>
>
Quoted text (10 lines)
> and has been so for many many years. It's sad - but it's true. > > -- > ed_ > > "Jim Seamus" said: > > > > What a shame. > > > > Ferrari are all about the passion of motor-sport - that's the reasonCasual F1 fan here. So take my comments for what they are worth to you.
That was disgraceful and goes against the principles of sporting ethics.
Schumacher and Ferrari should be ashamed. Schumacher should have had the
balls to say "NO".
F1 is a pathetic joke of a sport. I guess it goes into the same class as Pro
wrestling now. Boring and fixed.
I, for one, will neve watch another F1 race or buy another F1 game.
LAME LAME LAME
On Sun, 12 May 2002 09:46:55 -0400, "elrikk" <[email hidden]>
wrote:
>OK, there are reasons that I never was a big Ferreri fan ;O)
>That settles it. I won't be buying a Ferarri when my Renault Megane
needs replacing.
I became a Schumey fan because I couldn't take Senna's (steely)
attitude. MS was a breath of fresh air. I've supported him all along
even thru the dubious moves with Villeneuve and Hill for the
championships. I still think he is an excellent talent and one of
F1's best. I didn't agree with last years team orders decision, but
todays was infinitely worse. Being clearly ahead on points and in a
better finishing position than his rivals, he (and Ferarri) should
have let *sportsmanship* and team rivalry take its course.
IMO, it cast a cloud over MS's victory and seriously undermines the
spirit of all things we admire in racing. I can't see how I can ever
seriously support either MS or Ferarri again. I feel sorry for Rubens
especially after his superb qualifying performances in the F2002 car.
I certainly won't be buying any F1 merchandise from now on. I think
the entire sport has been tainted by this as the powers that rule,
appear to approve.
MS's comments at the press conference showed that he would never have
braked to give Rubens the victory. His defence of the decision echoed
last years similar debacle.
Noting that many of the booing audience were probably Austrian &
German's given the location says a lot for public opinion of the
events. The show on the podium and interview room did nothing to ease
the intense feeling of distaste i experienced. My wife watched with
me and was enraged and upset by the turn of events.
I'm glad though that Rubens made the move the way he did and not
meekly attempting to *fake* it on the infield. What little bravado he
is allowed to maintain showed clearly there. What about the look on
Ralf's face?
We have been robbed of a fine drivers performance and it looks set to
continue for the next 2 years.
I hope they strike the ferarri point scores from the roll. In fact,
they should let Ferrari miss the next couple of races as well. Deny
them the race at Monza if they have to. Of course they won't.
Sorry for the rant, but this really ranks down there with Tyson
chewing Holyfield and Hansie Cronje's cricket matchfixing.
I can't wait for F1 2002. I'll never race as schumi again. A
pointless gesture, but so what?
Regards all,
istoff
Goy Larsen wrote:
A Corporate Prostitute is what it makes him. Disgusting.
--
Fester
Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8)
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02
Quoted text (16 lines)
> > John Pancoast wrote: > >> I hear what you're saying Goy, but I doubt if many people in that position >>would have done as suggested. To get to be that good, takes such drive, >>dedication, etc., that being a "nice guy/sportsman" rarely fits into the >>equation. Anything for the win, period, is the usual line of thinking. >> I sure can't think of anyone that would have done it, past or present, of >>the same caliber of MS skill-wise. >> >> Not defending it, or am a MS fan, just my .02 :) > > > I fear you are right, but to me this is the stuff that separates > excellent drivers from great sportsmen, and call me naive, but I do > think they exist out thereelrikk wrote:
Absolutely correct. He sold his character out to his employer. :-(
--
Fester
Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8)
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02
Quoted text (16 lines)
> "Dan Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:abltms$j5cq3$[email hidden]... > >>Imo this decision came from luca demontezemelo. He should take all the >>blame, he's there for the good of ferrari but is dragging the name into > > the > >>dirt. > > > > Agreed but Schumacher's car has brakes that are every bit as effective as > Ruben's. > > He could have used them. Or am I being a bit idealistic ? ;o)Having seen some Oz V8 races on a new satellite channel here in the UK along
with some recent races in the BTCC, F1 has hit the pits (pardon the pun).
I'll tune in for the next presentation of the WRC on our channel 4 but will
I break a 15 year habit of watching F1 ? I may well do, it has become really
boring.
There was one real incident today, Heidfelds crash into Sato. I think the
two of them (and Montoya for that matter) must be deeply relieved it was not
worse.
Did anyone see Villeneuves overtaking explouits today? I thought not, there
isn't enough red paint on the car to make it interesting eh!
Andi.
"Doug Hook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:XWxD8.13766$[email hidden]...
Pro
Quoted text (7 lines)
> Casual F1 fan here. So take my comments for what they are worth to you. > > That was disgraceful and goes against the principles of sporting ethics. > Schumacher and Ferrari should be ashamed. Schumacher should have had the > balls to say "NO". > > F1 is a pathetic joke of a sport. I guess it goes into the same class asQuoted text (7 lines)
> wrestling now. Boring and fixed. > > I, for one, will neve watch another F1 race or buy another F1 game. > > LAME LAME LAME > >WWF1....?
("borrowed" from rasf1)
J. P. Hovercraft
------------
elrikk wrote:
Quoted text (23 lines)
> "nobody special" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:UZvD8.110690$[email hidden]... > > > > "Wayne M. Grenon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:ovuD8.1212$[email hidden]... > > > What Ferrari did denied all the Austrian fans of the joy they would have > > > experienced if Rubens had won. As stoic as he was during the press > > > conference, team orders defeat the purpose of racing. The best man and > > car > > > should win. I hope Ferrari learns from this. > > > > > > This is why most Americans will never understand or enjoy F1, all they > > will > > > see is that Shucey was handed the win and didn't earn it. > > > > OTOH, there's a large WWF audience that might appreciate it > > > > LOL, snort, cough, spit-up . . . . > > Damn! And that was a good keyboard too! ;O) > > elrikkWhy are you booing Schumacher? Rubens slowed down.
"elrikk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:enuD8.2671$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (13 lines)
> BOOOO-OOOO-OOOO-OOOOO-OOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOO!!! > > That was for Schumacher! > > and to think that Rubens has a guaranteed 2 more years of this to look > forward to. > > elrikk > > OK, there are reasons that I never was a big Ferreri fan ;O) > > >This brings up a couple of points.
There were rumours of Schumi "sandbagging" - allowing Rubens to get close so
that his contract would be renewed - in previous races. This proves that
was not the case. Rubens has signed, no need for the sandbagging anymore.
How much real worth does Schumi's tally of wins have anymore?
I'd all but given up on F1 prior to this race (still slept through the last
laps) but was making the effort here as 1) Schumi was outqualified fair and
square and 2) it's a track with overtaking potential. Against my better
judgement I really thought Ferrari would be above this rubbish given their
position, but I was wrong...
Maybe we should have a new rule - only 1 car teams are allowed. Surely that
would help on the cost cutting that F1 desires...
Mark
Reading, UK
"elrikk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:enuD8.2671$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (13 lines)
> BOOOO-OOOO-OOOO-OOOOO-OOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOO!!! > > That was for Schumacher! > > and to think that Rubens has a guaranteed 2 more years of this to look > forward to. > > elrikk > > OK, there are reasons that I never was a big Ferreri fan ;O) > > >AND... Brawn says:
"Michael broke his leg in 1999 and there's no knowing what is going to
happen. We are not conceited enough to think that we have such an advantage
that we can forget about our competitors."
What a joke. FOR THAT VERY REASON he shouldn't put all his eggs in one
basket. Say Schumi breaks his leg again next time out and Rubens loses the
championship by three points. Ferrari would look pretty frickin stupid
then, wouldn't they...
Mark
Reading, UK
"JTSBurn" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:abmff6$ilvve$1@ID-
127765.news.dfncis.de:
> Why are you booing Schumacher? Rubens slowed down.
>
The big "RB Engine OFF" switch on Ross Brawns remote control meant Rubens
had no choice in the matter. Move over or be shut off. They have 2-way
telemetry now you know.
MS still had a working brake pedal. He could have chosen to defy the team
orders.
cheers
John
"JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Funny how when Waltrip just sat there and let Earnhardt take the Talladega
win, it was just accepted as something that's done all the time.
Now we get to hear Ferrari and MS bashing for a few days from jealous fans
of other drivers/teams. <yawn>
David G Fisher
Quoted text (20 lines)
> "Wayne M. Grenon" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:ovuD8.1212$[email hidden]: > > > What Ferrari did denied all the Austrian fans of the joy they would > > have experienced if Rubens had won. As stoic as he was during the > > press conference, team orders defeat the purpose of racing. The best > > man and car should win. I hope Ferrari learns from this. > > > > This is why most Americans will never understand or enjoy F1, all they > > will see is that Shucey was handed the win and didn't earn it. > > > > Wayne > > (A very irate American F1 Fan) > > > > Actually today's fiasco reminded me of a good percentage of the NASCAR > races I've watched, in terms of fixing who gets to win. > > cheers > John
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:KSBD8.190169$[email hidden]...
I think it's safe to say what happened today, has happened all the time in
F1 also, just a bit more blatant this time, but what's the difference
between that an ordering someone into the pits, as has happened in F1 since
stops were started ?
As far as accepting "all the time" per above in Nascar races ? Don't
think so.............don't know who said that, but it wasn't me <G>
-John
>
>
Quoted text (31 lines)
> > "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > "Wayne M. Grenon" <[email hidden]> wrote in > > news:ovuD8.1212$[email hidden]: > > > > > What Ferrari did denied all the Austrian fans of the joy they would > > > have experienced if Rubens had won. As stoic as he was during the > > > press conference, team orders defeat the purpose of racing. The best > > > man and car should win. I hope Ferrari learns from this. > > > > > > This is why most Americans will never understand or enjoy F1, all they > > > will see is that Shucey was handed the win and didn't earn it. > > > > > > Wayne > > > (A very irate American F1 Fan) > > > > > > > Actually today's fiasco reminded me of a good percentage of the NASCAR > > races I've watched, in terms of fixing who gets to win. > > > > cheers > > John > > Funny how when Waltrip just sat there and let Earnhardt take the Talladega > win, it was just accepted as something that's done all the time. > > Now we get to hear Ferrari and MS bashing for a few days from jealous fans > of other drivers/teams. <yawn> > > David G Fisher
"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
best
> > > > man and car should win. I hope Ferrari learns from this.
> > > >
> > > > This is why most Americans will never understand or enjoy F1, allthey
Talladega
> > win, it was just accepted as something that's done all the time.
> >
> > Now we get to hear Ferrari and MS bashing for a few days from jealousfans
> > of other drivers/teams. <yawn>
> >
> > David G Fisher
>
> I think it's safe to say what happened today, has happened all the timein
> F1 also, just a bit more blatant this time, but what's the difference
> between that an ordering someone into the pits, as has happened in F1since
> stops were started ?
>
> As far as accepting "all the time" per above in Nascar races ? Don't
> think so.............don't know who said that, but it wasn't me <G>
>
> -John
Just finished reading through this thread and all I can say is it's full of
bullshit from the usual F1/MS bashers and some mello-drama queens. Tempting
to respond to a few of them, but I've got some better things to do right
now.
David G Fisher
Quoted text (12 lines)
> > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:KSBD8.190169$[email hidden]... > > > > "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > "Wayne M. Grenon" <[email hidden]> wrote in > > > news:ovuD8.1212$[email hidden]: > > > > > > > What Ferrari did denied all the Austrian fans of the joy they would > > > > have experienced if Rubens had won. As stoic as he was during the > > > > press conference, team orders defeat the purpose of racing. TheQuoted text (13 lines)
> > > > will see is that Shucey was handed the win and didn't earn it. > > > > > > > > Wayne > > > > (A very irate American F1 Fan) > > > > > > > > > > Actually today's fiasco reminded me of a good percentage of the NASCAR > > > races I've watched, in terms of fixing who gets to win. > > > > > > cheers > > > John > > > > Funny how when Waltrip just sat there and let Earnhardt take the> Did anyone see Villeneuves overtaking explouits today? I thought not, there
> isn't enough red paint on the car to make it interesting eh!
Well I guess he added some orange paint to his car in an effort for more
coverage :-)
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:FcCD8.165270$[email hidden]...
would
NASCAR
time
of
> bullshit from the usual F1/MS bashers and some mello-drama queens.Tempting
> to respond to a few of them, but I've got some better things to do right
> now.
>
> David G Fisher
> I'm hoping you're not putting me in that catagory Dave..............
-John
>
Quoted text (13 lines)
> > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:KSBD8.190169$[email hidden]... > > > > > > "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > "Wayne M. Grenon" <[email hidden]> wrote in > > > > news:ovuD8.1212$[email hidden]: > > > > > > > > > What Ferrari did denied all the Austrian fans of the joy theyQuoted text (14 lines)
> > > > > have experienced if Rubens had won. As stoic as he was during the > > > > > press conference, team orders defeat the purpose of racing. The > best > > > > > man and car should win. I hope Ferrari learns from this. > > > > > > > > > > This is why most Americans will never understand or enjoy F1, all > they > > > > > will see is that Shucey was handed the win and didn't earn it. > > > > > > > > > > Wayne > > > > > (A very irate American F1 Fan) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually today's fiasco reminded me of a good percentage of theQuoted text (16 lines)
> > > > races I've watched, in terms of fixing who gets to win. > > > > > > > > cheers > > > > John > > > > > > Funny how when Waltrip just sat there and let Earnhardt take the > Talladega > > > win, it was just accepted as something that's done all the time. > > > > > > Now we get to hear Ferrari and MS bashing for a few days from jealous > fans > > > of other drivers/teams. <yawn> > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > I think it's safe to say what happened today, has happened all theQuoted text (12 lines)
> in > > F1 also, just a bit more blatant this time, but what's the difference > > between that an ordering someone into the pits, as has happened in F1 > since > > stops were started ? > > > > As far as accepting "all the time" per above in Nascar races ? Don't > > think so.............don't know who said that, but it wasn't me <G> > > > > -John > > Just finished reading through this thread and all I can say is it's fullQuoted text (13 lines)
> > > > Just finished reading through this thread and all I can say is it's full > of > > bullshit from the usual F1/MS bashers and some mello-drama queens. > Tempting > > to respond to a few of them, but I've got some better things to do right > > now. > > > > David G Fisher > > > I'm hoping you're not putting me in that catagory Dave.............. > > -John
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:KSBD8.190169$[email hidden]...
OK, for one, if Waltrip had passed Little E then probably another 20 cars
would have done, too, so that was an example of settling for what you've
got. That wasn't the case today. (By the way, it was Daytona, wasn't it?)
Second, I'm not a jealous type, but a champion must win races, not get them
given to him. He must win championships by driving, not by playing
bumper-cars with other guys. More pertinently, what we saw today was just
not sport. It was a manufactured outcome, and I want no part of it.
I'm one of those holier-than-thou bloody-minded types, I'm afraid, and I
won't watch or support F1 until this stench is cleared up.
Quoted text (9 lines)
> Funny how when Waltrip just sat there and let Earnhardt take the Talladega > win, it was just accepted as something that's done all the time. > > Now we get to hear Ferrari and MS bashing for a few days from jealous fans > of other drivers/teams. <yawn> > > David G Fisher > >
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:FcCD8.165270$[email hidden]...
would
NASCAR
time
of
> bullshit from the usual F1/MS bashers and some mello-drama queens.Tempting
> to respond to a few of them, but I've got some better things to do right
> now.
>
> David G Fisher
>
>
Well! Thank God for small blessings.
Elrikk
Quoted text (13 lines)
> > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:KSBD8.190169$[email hidden]... > > > > > > "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > "Wayne M. Grenon" <[email hidden]> wrote in > > > > news:ovuD8.1212$[email hidden]: > > > > > > > > > What Ferrari did denied all the Austrian fans of the joy theyQuoted text (14 lines)
> > > > > have experienced if Rubens had won. As stoic as he was during the > > > > > press conference, team orders defeat the purpose of racing. The > best > > > > > man and car should win. I hope Ferrari learns from this. > > > > > > > > > > This is why most Americans will never understand or enjoy F1, all > they > > > > > will see is that Shucey was handed the win and didn't earn it. > > > > > > > > > > Wayne > > > > > (A very irate American F1 Fan) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually today's fiasco reminded me of a good percentage of theQuoted text (16 lines)
> > > > races I've watched, in terms of fixing who gets to win. > > > > > > > > cheers > > > > John > > > > > > Funny how when Waltrip just sat there and let Earnhardt take the > Talladega > > > win, it was just accepted as something that's done all the time. > > > > > > Now we get to hear Ferrari and MS bashing for a few days from jealous > fans > > > of other drivers/teams. <yawn> > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > I think it's safe to say what happened today, has happened all theQuoted text (12 lines)
> in > > F1 also, just a bit more blatant this time, but what's the difference > > between that an ordering someone into the pits, as has happened in F1 > since > > stops were started ? > > > > As far as accepting "all the time" per above in Nascar races ? Don't > > think so.............don't know who said that, but it wasn't me <G> > > > > -John > > Just finished reading through this thread and all I can say is it's fullI had an accumulator bet on Rubinho to win, and Birmingham City to win
promotion after extra time....
Hey Dave,
I guess I must be the melodrama queen, ehh?
I am not a fan of NASCAR the way I am a fan of F1, Cart, IRL, Barber Dodge
etc,etc,etc...
I just feel that the fans were robbed of seeing the hard work and trouble
that Ruben's been through this year pay off. Sometimes the nice guys should
win....
BTW, I am a Jaguar fan (but I'm starting to regret that path :)
Wayne
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:FLCD8.156901$[email hidden]...
>
> > >
> > > Just finished reading through this thread and all I can say is it'sfull
> > of
> > > bullshit from the usual F1/MS bashers and some mello-drama queens.
> > Tempting
> > > to respond to a few of them, but I've got some better things to doright
Quoted text (13 lines)
> > > now. > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > I'm hoping you're not putting me in that catagory Dave.............. > > > > -John > > No, I wasn't. Sorry about that. > > David G Fisher > >Ouch, it was mentioned that bets are void whenever a sporting event is
fixed. I'd try to get your stake back.
--
__________
Steve Levett
"elysium" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:abmvjv$om1$[email hidden]...
> I had an accumulator bet on Rubinho to win, and Birmingham City to win
> promotion after extra time....
>
>
I hope you put on your Nomex underwear? ;-)
Achim
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:KSBD8.190169$[email hidden]...
...
> Funny how when Waltrip just sat there and let Earnhardt take the Talladega
> win, it was just accepted as something that's done all the time.
>
> Now we get to hear Ferrari and MS bashing for a few days from jealous fans
> of other drivers/teams. <yawn>
<g> I recommend double layer of Nomex ;-)
Achim
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:FcCD8.165270$[email hidden]...
...
> Just finished reading through this thread and all I can say is it's fullof
> bullshit from the usual F1/MS bashers and some mello-drama queens.
> Tempting to respond to a few of them, but I've got some better things
> to do right now....
"Funny how when Waltrip just sat there and let Earnhardt take the
Talladega win, it was just accepted as something that's done all the
time."
Total BS. It had been shown throughout the whole race that, without
help from behind, it was extremely difficult to draft by the leader.
If it was the last race of the year, with the driver's chamionship and
the manufacturers championship (Ford v Chevy) actually on the line,
what happened at Austria wouldn't happen in NASCAR. Both drivers
involved would be tainted for life. The sponsors would have to
disassociate themselves from the team to avoid the fan backlash. The
sanctioning body would take real action.
"David G Fisher">
> Just finished reading through this thread and all I can say is it's fullof
> bullshit from the usual F1/MS bashers and some mello-drama queens.Tempting
> to respond to a few of them, but I've got some better things to do right
> now.
>
> David G Fisher like what David? Esplain why Montoya didn't really beat Ralfie???
(sorry cheap shot...I go now)
dave henrie
This was not Schumacher's call, and there's every indication that he is just
as pissed about it as the fans are.
He wouldn't even take the 1st place position at the podium, and in fact gave
the winning trophy to Rubens.
He probably created an little internal trouble for himself with that move,
but I thought it was a nice gesture considering.
Both of them handled the interviews as well as could be expected.
-Larry
"elrikk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:enuD8.2671$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (13 lines)
> BOOOO-OOOO-OOOO-OOOOO-OOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOO!!! > > That was for Schumacher! > > and to think that Rubens has a guaranteed 2 more years of this to look > forward to. > > elrikk > > OK, there are reasons that I never was a big Ferreri fan ;O) > > >I disagree.
It is absolutely normal for Nascar Team members to help each other on the
track.
However, I have never, EVER seen a one-two situation like this where the
team-mate in the lead, about to win the race, pulled over and let the second
place car win.
Never.
-Larry
"JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (20 lines)
> "Wayne M. Grenon" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:ovuD8.1212$[email hidden]: > > > What Ferrari did denied all the Austrian fans of the joy they would > > have experienced if Rubens had won. As stoic as he was during the > > press conference, team orders defeat the purpose of racing. The best > > man and car should win. I hope Ferrari learns from this. > > > > This is why most Americans will never understand or enjoy F1, all they > > will see is that Shucey was handed the win and didn't earn it. > > > > Wayne > > (A very irate American F1 Fan) > > > > Actually today's fiasco reminded me of a good percentage of the NASCAR > races I've watched, in terms of fixing who gets to win. > > cheers > JohnI have to disagree with your assessment of the Earnhardt/Waltrip team-work.
I think Mikey tried everything he could to protect BOTH of their positions,
and try to win at the same time.
That was a completely different situation than that horse-puckies we saw on
TV today.
-Larry
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:KSBD8.190169$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (33 lines)
> > "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > "Wayne M. Grenon" <[email hidden]> wrote in > > news:ovuD8.1212$[email hidden]: > > > > > What Ferrari did denied all the Austrian fans of the joy they would > > > have experienced if Rubens had won. As stoic as he was during the > > > press conference, team orders defeat the purpose of racing. The best > > > man and car should win. I hope Ferrari learns from this. > > > > > > This is why most Americans will never understand or enjoy F1, all they > > > will see is that Shucey was handed the win and didn't earn it. > > > > > > Wayne > > > (A very irate American F1 Fan) > > > > > > > Actually today's fiasco reminded me of a good percentage of the NASCAR > > races I've watched, in terms of fixing who gets to win. > > > > cheers > > John > > Funny how when Waltrip just sat there and let Earnhardt take the Talladega > win, it was just accepted as something that's done all the time. > > Now we get to hear Ferrari and MS bashing for a few days from jealous fans > of other drivers/teams. <yawn> > > David G Fisher > >Well put, Colin.
-Larry
"Colin Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:1_CD8.1344$[email hidden]...
>
> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:KSBD8.190169$[email hidden]...
> > Funny how when Waltrip just sat there and let Earnhardt take theTalladega
> > win, it was just accepted as something that's done all the time.
> >
> > Now we get to hear Ferrari and MS bashing for a few days from jealousfans
them
Quoted text (9 lines)
> > of other drivers/teams. <yawn> > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > OK, for one, if Waltrip had passed Little E then probably another 20 cars > would have done, too, so that was an example of settling for what you've > got. That wasn't the case today. (By the way, it was Daytona, wasn't it?) > Second, I'm not a jealous type, but a champion must win races, not getQuoted text (8 lines)
> given to him. He must win championships by driving, not by playing > bumper-cars with other guys. More pertinently, what we saw today was just > not sport. It was a manufactured outcome, and I want no part of it. > I'm one of those holier-than-thou bloody-minded types, I'm afraid, and I > won't watch or support F1 until this stench is cleared up. > > >
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:EoGD8.38328$RR3.50459@sccrnsc02...
That's easy. JPM will explain to you how he edged out the faster (both in
qualifying and race--just like last week until RS's admitted mistake) RS.
http://www.autosport.com/newsitem.cfm?id=18967&series=5
Yes, RS was faster in qualifying two weeks ago (outqualified JPM in four of
six races so far) and again in Austria. He also was much faster in both
races. He opened up nice lead in Austria, and then gradually pulled JPM him
back in when behind after pit stops. He easily pulled away from JPM in Spain
until his JPM like mistake. Of course the JPM myth will live on in the minds
of some who can't admit when they get caught up in hype.
As for all these whiners who let their emotions and bias get the best of
them, the main thing they are overlooking (figured I'd wait until now so I
could watch the whining for awhile) is that RB (who I like a lot) did not
*beat* MS in a fight to the finish. We don't know who really would of won
because the race was essentially ended long before the last 100 meters due
to both driver's big lead over Williams.
From http://www.autosport.com/newsitem.cfm?id=18962&series=5
Technical director Ross Brawn justified the move to give Schumacher the win
by saying Ferrari dictated what pace their drivers should race at, so
therefore it wasn't a true fight to the flag.
"Rubens Barrichello won the race today," said the Englishman. "But in the
interests of Ferrari we made the decision for the drivers' championship. We
told the drivers not to race each other. We were telling Michael not to push
we were telling Rubens not to push. That's not a race."
David G Fisher
Quoted text (13 lines)
> > "David G Fisher"> > > Just finished reading through this thread and all I can say is it's full > of > > bullshit from the usual F1/MS bashers and some mello-drama queens. > Tempting > > to respond to a few of them, but I've got some better things to do right > > now. > > > > David G Fisher > like what David? Esplain why Montoya didn't really beat Ralfie??? > (sorry cheap shot...I go now) > dave henrie
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "Funny how when Waltrip just sat there and let Earnhardt take the
> Talladega win, it was just accepted as something that's done all the
> time."
>
> Total BS. It had been shown throughout the whole race that, without
> help from behind, it was extremely difficult to draft by the leader.
Please. Everyone saw Waltrip was blocking for Earnhardt and never even
attempted a pass. Plenty of people in this newsgroup saw the same thing but
didn't get offended by it for some reason. Check the "N2002 Drafting
Accurate?" thread for examples. Both Waltrip and Barichello let their
teammates win, but in different ways.
> If it was the last race of the year, with the driver's chamionship and
> the manufacturers championship (Ford v Chevy) actually on the line,
> what happened at Austria wouldn't happen in NASCAR.
It wasn't the last race of the F1 season, with the drivers and manufacturers
championship on the line, so why make that comparison?
>Both drivers
> involved would be tainted for life. The sponsors would have to
> disassociate themselves from the team to avoid the fan backlash. The
> sanctioning body would take real action.
NASCAR??? Yea right. With all the crap that goes on in that WWF league of
racing I highly doubt it. F1 can learn nothing from a comparatively minor
league series like NASCAR.
David G Fisher
"Colin Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:1_CD8.1344$[email hidden]...
>
> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:KSBD8.190169$[email hidden]...
> > Funny how when Waltrip just sat there and let Earnhardt take theTalladega
> > win, it was just accepted as something that's done all the time.
> >
> > Now we get to hear Ferrari and MS bashing for a few days from jealousfans
Too bad for Earnhardt then, he should of used a different strategy that
wouldn't of seen him dropped down the field if one car passes him. Fact is,
Waltrip was told to let Earnhardt win. No different than Barrichello.
Different reaction though.
And yes it was Talladega, but according to some here at r.a.s., this has
happened before with Waltrip and Eanrhardt (see N2002 Drafting Accurate?"
thread so maybe that's why you are confused.
> Second, I'm not a jealous type, but a champion must win races,
Something MS has done more than any other, and something he makes look
rather easy because he's probably the greatest driver ever. BTW, I'm the
last person to fawn over an athlete (wouldn't bother to walk into the next
room to meet Michael Jordan) or listen to hype, but the guy is simply
amazing.
>not get them
> given to him. He must win championships by driving, not by playing
> bumper-cars with other guys. More pertinently, what we saw today was just
> not sport. It was a manufactured outcome, and I want no part of it.
> I'm one of those holier-than-thou bloody-minded types, I'm afraid, and I
> won't watch or support F1 until this stench is cleared up.
As I said in another post, MS and RB were not racing each other in a battle
to the finish. At some point, they were told not to push their cars or each
other. If they both had the Williams drivers on their tail and RB was still
able to stay ahead of MS (somehting he's rarely done---a huge fact that
can't be ignored), then RB would have gotten the win.
If this type of thing really bothers you and some others, and you won't
watch or support F1 until it's cleared up, then you shouldn't have been
watching for decades because it's happened before. It's happened in various
series. For some reason, when the best driver and team in the world does it,
it's the end of the world. Sounds like nothing but jealousy to me.
My personal opinion is that the decision was a necessary evil (too strong a
phrase actually). Ferrari is a team made up of many, many people (not just
MS and RB) and is trying to win the drivers and manufacturers championship.
The season is only a third over and the standings could change dramatically
in just a few races.
David G Fisher
Quoted text (8 lines)
> > of other drivers/teams. <yawn> > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > OK, for one, if Waltrip had passed Little E then probably another 20 cars > would have done, too, so that was an example of settling for what you've > got. That wasn't the case today. (By the way, it was Daytona, wasn't it?)
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:whHD8.116213$[email hidden]...
but
manufacturers
While Dave cuts to the chase more than I on the subject<G>, he's right;
stuff like today in F1 happens in Nascar too. I don't necessarily think
Waltrip didn't try for the win, but I could easily see him getting orders
too.
For that matter, I remember years ago, Ken Squire openly asking(in all
serious, he wasn't being a wise-guy)the other announcers during races, if
Nascar would throw a flag to tighten the field up. At least these days,
there actually is debris of some kind when they do it<G> If they haven't
already, expect debris flags so the networks can get some commercials in, in
the future.
And then there's the "flip a coin for this week's version of the rules"
that Nascar likes to do...........and I'm a lifelong Nascar fan, but this
stuff happens.
Iow, both series are guilty of shenanigans at times. It's nothing new,
and it'll happen again, just the way it is. Doesn't mean it doesn't stink
still though<G>
-John
>
>
Quoted text (12 lines)
> > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > "Funny how when Waltrip just sat there and let Earnhardt take the > > Talladega win, it was just accepted as something that's done all the > > time." > > > > Total BS. It had been shown throughout the whole race that, without > > help from behind, it was extremely difficult to draft by the leader. > > Please. Everyone saw Waltrip was blocking for Earnhardt and never even > attempted a pass. Plenty of people in this newsgroup saw the same thingQuoted text (9 lines)
> didn't get offended by it for some reason. Check the "N2002 Drafting > Accurate?" thread for examples. Both Waltrip and Barichello let their > teammates win, but in different ways. > > > If it was the last race of the year, with the driver's chamionship and > > the manufacturers championship (Ford v Chevy) actually on the line, > > what happened at Austria wouldn't happen in NASCAR. > > It wasn't the last race of the F1 season, with the drivers andQuoted text (12 lines)
> championship on the line, so why make that comparison? > > >Both drivers > > involved would be tainted for life. The sponsors would have to > > disassociate themselves from the team to avoid the fan backlash. The > > sanctioning body would take real action. > > NASCAR??? Yea right. With all the crap that goes on in that WWF league of > racing I highly doubt it. F1 can learn nothing from a comparatively minor > league series like NASCAR. > > David G Fisher"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes:
> "Colin Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> message news:1_CD8.1344$[email hidden]...
> > Second, I'm not a jealous type, but a champion must win races,
>
> Something MS has done more than any other, and something he makes look
> rather easy because he's probably the greatest driver ever.
It sure looked easy yesterday. :-/
> As I said in another post, MS and RB were not racing each other in a battle
> to the finish. At some point, they were told not to push their cars or each
> other. If they both had the Williams drivers on their tail and RB was still
> able to stay ahead of MS (somehting he's rarely done---a huge fact that
> can't be ignored), then RB would have gotten the win.
Seems to me MS has rarely stayed ahead of his teammate on A1 ring.
(1998 4 sec ahead of Irvine, and 1997, Irvine crashed.)
> If this type of thing really bothers you and some others, and you won't
> watch or support F1 until it's cleared up, then you shouldn't have been
> watching for decades because it's happened before. It's happened in various
> series. For some reason, when the best driver and team in the world does it,
> it's the end of the world. Sounds like nothing but jealousy to me.
Didn't like it in 1998, either. BTW. What did FIA say after that race?
> My personal opinion is that the decision was a necessary evil (too strong a
> phrase actually). Ferrari is a team made up of many, many people (not just
> MS and RB) and is trying to win the drivers and manufacturers championship.
> The season is only a third over and the standings could change dramatically
> in just a few races.
IMO, the team should worry about the manufacturers championship, and
let the drivers worry about the drivers championship. The team did not
gain any points by yesterdays incident. Maybe FIA should just remove
the drivers championship, and only have a manufacturers championship?
(I'm serious. Isn't that what we have anyway?)
Why do I bother, MotoGP is more entertaining anyway. Anyone know how
we can get the Ferrari bigwigs to watch a video of the Ukawa/Rossi
finish in South Africa? Maybe they could learn something about racing
or if that is not what they are into, entertainment.
--
-asbjxrn
One could argue Rubens makes a big show of it every time - maybe other
teammates don't? ;-)
Achim
"Larry (The Other Larry)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:KBGD8.64440$[email hidden]...
...
> However, I have never, EVER seen a one-two situation like this where the
> team-mate in the lead, about to win the race, pulled over and let thesecond
> place car win.
> I sure can't think of anyone that would have done it, past or present, of
>the same caliber of MS skill-wise.
Jim Clark?
On Sun, 12 May 2002 15:16:30 GMT, Edward C
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>You are probably right Doug, what a sham... last time I get up at 7 a.m.
> on my only day off to watch a predetermined outcome!
>
>Edward
>
I agree, what a waste of my night to watch Rubens get shafted like
that. I certainly won't be watching Monaco in two weeks time (Ferrari
territory), RB isn't allowed to win races and I'm sick of seeing MS
romping away to victory (whether he deserves it or not).
Rafe Mc
What would Enzo Ferrari say? He'd roll over in his grave.
Rafe Mc
On Sun, 12 May 2002 09:46:55 -0400, "elrikk" <[email hidden]>
wrote:
Quoted text (12 lines)
>BOOOO-OOOO-OOOO-OOOOO-OOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOO!!! > >That was for Schumacher! > >and to think that Rubens has a guaranteed 2 more years of this to look >forward to. > >elrikk > >OK, there are reasons that I never was a big Ferreri fan ;O) > >"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> writes:
> I hear what you're saying Goy, but I doubt if many people in that position
> would have done as suggested. To get to be that good, takes such drive,
> dedication, etc., that being a "nice guy/sportsman" rarely fits into the
> equation. Anything for the win, period, is the usual line of thinking.
> I sure can't think of anyone that would have done it, past or present, of
> the same caliber of MS skill-wise.
Gilles Villeneuve.
I skimmed a legends-article from Motorsport about Gilles yesterday. It
mentioned the last race of some season, where the team had decided
that if the drivers ended up as 1-2 during the race, the car in front
would be the winner. Sure enough, lap 13 and Gilles is #2 behind his
teammate. And stays there, losing the championship in the
process. Asked about it after the race he said something like: "I
really hoped he would break, but I wouldn't break my word."
(Don't have the magazine right there, it is the one with Graham Hill
on the cover.)
--
-asbjxrn
David G Fisher wrote:
> Too bad for Earnhardt then, he should of used a different strategy that
> wouldn't of seen him dropped down the field if one car passes him. Fact is,
> Waltrip was told to let Earnhardt win. No different than Barrichello.
> Different reaction though.
WTF??? Where was Waltrip ahead, just to pull over & let Junior ahead to
take the win? I must have missed *that* one. Or else the two were
nothing alike...
> If this type of thing really bothers you and some others, and you won't
> watch or support F1 until it's cleared up, then you shouldn't have been
> watching for decades because it's happened before. It's happened in various
> series. For some reason, when the best driver and team in the world does it,
> it's the end of the world. Sounds like nothing but jealousy to me.
Just because "it's been done this way for a long time" still does not
make it right David. Not jealousy, indignation & repulsion is much closer.
> My personal opinion is that the decision was a necessary evil (too strong a
> phrase actually). Ferrari is a team made up of many, many people (not just
> MS and RB) and is trying to win the drivers and manufacturers championship.
> The season is only a third over and the standings could change dramatically
> in just a few races.
Although I like you personally, this is a most repulsive statement. It
makes you sound like a Corporate Whore as well. The individual should
come first, not the organization. When the organization gets out of
place, they need to be put back in their place by the individual. Like
MS using his brakes & refusing their false win. And it's not anti-MS
jealousy talking either. I'd feel the same if it had been JPM or anyone
else. Instead by playing along with the Ferrari organization, he sold
his character & morals for $$. What better example of a Corporate Whore?
--
Fester
Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8)
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02
Joachim Trensz wrote:
> One could argue Rubens makes a big show of it every time - maybe other
> teammates don't? ;-)
I'd say it's a quite effective way of showing his displeasure with the
decision made. Make it obvious as hell, angering as many observers as
possible at those responsible. Great move by RB. :-) More backbone
than those who would "fake it" to the end.
--
Fester
Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8)
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02
Dave,
Your not going to tell me that you honestly think that Schumacher
deserved to win. Is so, then what's the point of a teammate? Just to keep
him out there blocking the other guys.
Joel Willstein
--
"If you can leave black marks on a straight from the time you exit a corner
till the time you brake for the next turn
, then you have enough horsepower."
Mark Donohue
"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:FcCD8.165270$[email hidden]...
> >
> > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> > >
> > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > news:KSBD8.190169$[email hidden]...
> > > >
> > > > "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > > "Wayne M. Grenon" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> > > > > news:ovuD8.1212$[email hidden]:
> > > > >
> > > > > > What Ferrari did denied all the Austrian fans of the joy they
> would
> > > > > > have experienced if Rubens had won. As stoic as he was during
the
> > > > > > press conference, team orders defeat the purpose of racing. The
> > best
> > > > > > man and car should win. I hope Ferrari learns from this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is why most Americans will never understand or enjoy F1,
all
> > they
> > > > > > will see is that Shucey was handed the win and didn't earn it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wayne
> > > > > > (A very irate American F1 Fan)
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually today's fiasco reminded me of a good percentage of the
> NASCAR
> > > > > races I've watched, in terms of fixing who gets to win.
> > > > >
> > > > > cheers
> > > > > John
> > > >
> > > > Funny how when Waltrip just sat there and let Earnhardt take the
> > Talladega
> > > > win, it was just accepted as something that's done all the time.
> > > >
> > > > Now we get to hear Ferrari and MS bashing for a few days from
jealous
> > fans
> > > > of other drivers/teams. <yawn>
> > > >
> > > > David G Fisher
> > >
> > > I think it's safe to say what happened today, has happened all the
> time
> > in
> > > F1 also, just a bit more blatant this time, but what's the difference
> > > between that an ordering someone into the pits, as has happened in F1
> > since
> > > stops were started ?
> > >
> > > As far as accepting "all the time" per above in Nascar races ?
Don't
> > > think so.............don't know who said that, but it wasn't me <G>
> > >
> > > -John
> >
> > Just finished reading through this thread and all I can say is it's full
> of
> > bullshit from the usual F1/MS bashers and some mello-drama queens.
> Tempting
> > to respond to a few of them, but I've got some better things to do right
> > now.
> >
> > David G Fisher
> >
> I'm hoping you're not putting me in that catagory Dave..............
>
> -John
>
>
> >
>
>
> I can't wait for F1 2002. I'll never race as schumi again. A
> pointless gesture, but so what?
I wouldn't say that... I raced as Schumi just last night, and I even tried
to drive like he does - I used my indestructible car to ram all of my
competitors off the circuit, and simply cruised to victory unchallenged...
:-)
> Regards all,
> istoff
Muzza
Quoted text (12 lines)
>> "Funny how when Waltrip just sat there and let Earnhardt take the >> Talladega win, it was just accepted as something that's done all the >> time." >> >> Total BS. It had been shown throughout the whole race that, without >> help from behind, it was extremely difficult to draft by the leader. > >Please. Everyone saw Waltrip was blocking for Earnhardt and never even >attempted a pass. Plenty of people in this newsgroup saw the same thing but >didn't get offended by it for some reason. Check the "N2002 Drafting >Accurate?" thread for examples. Both Waltrip and Barichello let their >teammates win, but in different ways.Quoted text (7 lines)
> >> If it was the last race of the year, with the driver's chamionship and >> the manufacturers championship (Ford v Chevy) actually on the line, >> what happened at Austria wouldn't happen in NASCAR. > >It wasn't the last race of the F1 season, with the drivers and manufacturers >championship on the line, so why make that comparison?Quoted text (9 lines)
> >>Both drivers >> involved would be tainted for life. The sponsors would have to >> disassociate themselves from the team to avoid the fan backlash. The >> sanctioning body would take real action. > >NASCAR??? Yea right. With all the crap that goes on in that WWF league of >racing I highly doubt it. F1 can learn nothing from a comparatively minor >league series like NASCAR.In article <ovuD8.1212$[email hidden]>, "Wayne M. Grenon"
<[email hidden]> writes:
When McLaren did it, it was because a mixup pit call took Mika out of the lead.
He got called in accidentally, he would have won it anyway without that
mistake. There had been many times where David was leading Mika, and wasn't
asked to pull over.
Bottom line - the team has a number 1 and number 2 driver. They can treat each
one as they see fit. Truthfully, I don't see why there *should* be any FIA
rule to keep teams from doing it. After all, it's THEIR car, THEIR drivers.
It should really only be a team matter/decision.
Now having said that, how can you in good conscience ask a guy to *give up* a
Formula One victory. That's one of the most prestigious accomplishments in
motorsport. If it were the last one or two races, and Michael REALLY needed
the points, then you gotta do it. 5 races into the season, with a 20+ point
lead? I really thought they'd let Rubens enjoy the victory... IMO, that
sucks... :(
For those of you who think MS should have ignored the team orders - how early
was that decision made? If it was only ordered on the last lap, there might
not have been enough time for the drivers to really think it through. If they
had 10 laps to discuss it, maybe MS could have argued on RB's behalf. I agree
that Michael would not have been punished if he disobeyed that order, and let
Rubens take the victory. We just don't know how long the discussion was...
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure
breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a
donation. Thank you.
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (8 lines)
>What Ferrari did denied all the Austrian fans of the joy they would have >experienced if Rubens had won. As stoic as he was during the press >conference, team orders defeat the purpose of racing. The best man and car >should win. I hope Ferrari learns from this. > >This is why most Americans will never understand or enjoy F1, all they will >see is that Shucey was handed the win and didn't earn it. >
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:whHD8.116213$[email hidden]...
but
> didn't get offended by it for some reason. Check the "N2002 Drafting
> Accurate?" thread for examples. Both Waltrip and Barichello let their
> teammates win, but in different ways.
Comparing what happened in Austria yesterday and the race at Talladega is a
joke. Did you guys even watch the Talladega race or just using this as
another opportunity to bash the good ole boys? Everyone did not see Waltrip
not attempt to pass. I know what I saw. Ward Burton had a run and tried to
pass when running third with 2 laps to go, no one went with him and he
finished 15th. Hmmm, I wonder why Waltrip didn't try the same move after
that?
Kyle
Quoted text (12 lines)
> > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > "Funny how when Waltrip just sat there and let Earnhardt take the > > Talladega win, it was just accepted as something that's done all the > > time." > > > > Total BS. It had been shown throughout the whole race that, without > > help from behind, it was extremely difficult to draft by the leader. > > Please. Everyone saw Waltrip was blocking for Earnhardt and never even > attempted a pass. Plenty of people in this newsgroup saw the same thing
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:WFHD8.157439$[email hidden]...
> Fact is, Waltrip was told to let Earnhardt win. No different thanBarrichello.
And where exactly did you get this "Fact"?
Kyle
Joachim Trensz wrote:
I suppose so. Seems to me he has the balls to put heat to his employer,
to the extent that he is able to, when his employer is clearly in the
wrong. A most commendable action for someone in a tough situation to be
in. :-)
--
Fester
Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8)
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02
Quoted text (7 lines)
> You could also call it a remarkable lack of team spirit, and inconsequence > or even hipocrisy - after all, Rubens just very recently signed a contract > that obliges him to do precisely what he did at Zeltweg (and he's done it > before as well). Apparently Rubens didn't have much moral doubts about it > when he signed the contract... > > It all depends on the way you look at it... ;-)
Uncle Fester wrote:
> I suppose so. Seems to me he has the balls to put heat to his employer,
> to the extent that he is able to, when his employer is clearly in the
> wrong. A most commendable action for someone in a tough situation to be
> in. :-)
Tough situation?! Yeah right, my heart bleeds for him...no really, it
does...honest.
Gerry
You could also call it a remarkable lack of team spirit, and inconsequence
or even hipocrisy - after all, Rubens just very recently signed a contract
that obliges him to do precisely what he did at Zeltweg (and he's done it
before as well). Apparently Rubens didn't have much moral doubts about it
when he signed the contract...
It all depends on the way you look at it... ;-)
Achim
"Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (18 lines)
> Joachim Trensz wrote: > > One could argue Rubens makes a big show of it every time - maybe other > > teammates don't? ;-) > > > I'd say it's a quite effective way of showing his displeasure with the > decision made. Make it obvious as hell, angering as many observers as > possible at those responsible. Great move by RB. :-) More backbone > than those who would "fake it" to the end. > > > -- > > Fester > > Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8) > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02 >Clark allowed someone to win, when he could have ? That was my point,
fwiw.
-John
"Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> > I sure can't think of anyone that would have done it, past or present,of
> >the same caliber of MS skill-wise.
>
> Jim Clark?
>
In article <KSBD8.190169$[email hidden]>, "David G
Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes:
>Now we get to hear Ferrari and MS bashing for a few days from jealous fans
>of other drivers/teams. <yawn>
Fans of other teams? Why? They wouldn't have gotten the points anyway -
Ferrari was still 1-2...
I like Ferrari, but I think Rubens got 'pimped'... :(
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure
breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a
donation. Thank you.
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
In article <[email hidden]>, JM
<[email hidden]> writes:
>That's a good point, while two way telemetry could have shut off Ruben's
>car if he tried to say "no", nothing could have stopped Michael saying he'd
>park the car if he truly disagreed with the team orders.
I don't think they would have *shut off* Rubens' car(I doubt they could do that
anyway). They wouldn't want to give those 6 points(at least) to another team.
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure
breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a
donation. Thank you.
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Ed Solheim wrote:
If you blame MS, you should also blame RB. Both guys are bound by their
contracts defining their roles in the TEAM. Why didn't RB just hit the
gas pedal? He was pissed, but stayed within his contract, so did MS.
Both are dedicated F1 drivers, and are willing to do a lot to not
risk loosing the seat in that red car.
If anyone is to blame, it's the loonies at the top of Ferrari.
Get 4 more points to secure the drivers championship but loose BIG
amounts of sympathy. So much stupidity is unbelievable...
--
l8er
ronny
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Quoted text (9 lines)
> To be frank Goy, I reallyu dont give a hoot of who's fault it was... it > sucked bigtime and really show what F1 is today... if tyouy want to win you > can only afford to back one horse.... meaning that who ever rides beside MS > will always suffer. > > MS himself should have seen this coming and if it felt this bad - he should > have let Rubens take the win. > > MS suck - GO RUBENS!Uncle Fester wrote:
What a childish view of the world. Sorry for the harsh words, but unless
you succeed in world revolution, this is idealistic dreaming. MS is a
very dedicated racer and does (meanwhile) not give a rats ass about money,
he just wants to race this car. Following orders from your boss doesn't
make you a whore, it just helps keeping you employed.
Also, any political system invented by humans had a command structure,
and any future system (should it be invented) will have it, too... ;)
--
l8er
ronny
Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change
to take effect. Reboot now?
Quoted text (9 lines)
> > Although I like you personally, this is a most repulsive statement. It > makes you sound like a Corporate Whore as well. The individual should > come first, not the organization. When the organization gets out of > place, they need to be put back in their place by the individual. Like > MS using his brakes & refusing their false win. And it's not anti-MS > jealousy talking either. I'd feel the same if it had been JPM or anyone > else. Instead by playing along with the Ferrari organization, he sold > his character & morals for $$. What better example of a Corporate Whore?EldredP wrote:
>
snip
> For those of you who think MS should have ignored the team orders - how early
> was that decision made? If it was only ordered on the last lap, there might
> not have been enough time for the drivers to really think it through. If they
> had 10 laps to discuss it, maybe MS could have argued on RB's behalf. I agree
> that Michael would not have been punished if he disobeyed that order, and let
> Rubens take the victory. We just don't know how long the discussion was...
I'm with you on all points. MS stated in an interview that this was not discussed
before the race. He was surprised when he was told on the last lap that RB would
let him pass. Of course, all the MS haters don't believe one single word he
says, so he probably bullied RB on the radio into submission, or maybe MS
really has a red button on his steering wheel labeled "RB engine off" ... ;)
--
l8er
ronny
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[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote in
> I don't think they would have *shut off* Rubens' car(I doubt they
> could do that anyway). They wouldn't want to give those 6 points(at
> least) to another team.
>
> Eldred
1. Yes they can shut the car off with two way telemetry, I'm reminded of a
certain N.Mansell waving to the crowd with a comfortable lead on his final
lap and the gesture being mistaken from the pit as a warning, and the car
rolling to a stop.
2. Ferrari do not, I repeat, do not, give one flying fuck about the
manufacturer's championship. It is their strategy to back one horse for
the driver's championship. The manf title has always only ever been a
consolation prize, nobody really cares about it.
I'm not saying that was said, but it would be known to any driver that the
possibility existed. Still, I can't see Rubens crying into his pile of 10
million dollar notes any time soon.
For the record, I've supported Ferrari for years, and defended MS against
many of his critics.
cheers
John
JM <[email hidden]> wrote:
Absolutely false. Two way telemetry did not exist in F1 until this
year, and was certainly NOT in effect in 1991, the year to which you
are probably referring (Canadian GP). If you are suggesting that
Williams were cheating by having such a system in place 11 years ago,
it is completely ludicrous to believe that something that blatant
could be kept secret from everyone else in the paddock. Plain and
simple, the gearbox packed in; the engine was still running when the
car finally stopped. I was about 20 feet away and could plainly hear
Nigel revving the engine and trying to find a gear.
Quoted text (13 lines)
>[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote in > >> I don't think they would have *shut off* Rubens' car(I doubt they >> could do that anyway). They wouldn't want to give those 6 points(at >> least) to another team. >> >> Eldred > >1. Yes they can shut the car off with two way telemetry, I'm reminded of a >certain N.Mansell waving to the crowd with a comfortable lead on his final >lap and the gesture being mistaken from the pit as a warning, and the car >rolling to a stop. >> >1. Yes they can shut the car off with two way telemetry, I'm reminded ofa
> >certain N.Mansell waving to the crowd with a comfortable lead on hisfinal
Yeah, I think this is an urban myth. I remember watching that race on TV and
you could definitely hear the engine revving and see Nigel working furiously
in the cockpit trying to make it go. I felt sorry for him...
Any team member that shuts an engine off just because the driver waves
(without getting triple confirmation over the radio) would never work in
racing again!
Quoted text (12 lines)
> >lap and the gesture being mistaken from the pit as a warning, and the car > >rolling to a stop. > > > Absolutely false. Two way telemetry did not exist in F1 until this > year, and was certainly NOT in effect in 1991, the year to which you > are probably referring (Canadian GP). If you are suggesting that > Williams were cheating by having such a system in place 11 years ago, > it is completely ludicrous to believe that something that blatant > could be kept secret from everyone else in the paddock. Plain and > simple, the gearbox packed in; the engine was still running when the > car finally stopped. I was about 20 feet away and could plainly hear > Nigel revving the engine and trying to find a gear.
> Why do I bother, MotoGP is more entertaining anyway. Anyone know how
> we can get the Ferrari bigwigs to watch a video of the Ukawa/Rossi
> finish in South Africa? Maybe they could learn something about racing
> or if that is not what they are into, entertainment.
> --
> -asbjxrn
I agree Moto GP is way better and Rossi rocks, that kid can ride
"Ronald Stoehr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
...
> ...maybe MS really has a red button on his
> steering wheel labeled "RB engine off" ... ;)
<bg> good one :-)
Achim
A friend yesterday reminded me of the Italian GP 1956, where a direct
competitor for that year's title yielded his car to another driver.
This driver, Collins, came into the pits for a tire-check with 15 laps to
go, and yielded his car to Fangio, whose car had broken down with a
mechanical failure. Fangio accepted.
Collins thereby gave up his chances for the title that year, while Fangio
finished second and took this year's title. His third in a row if
http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr056.html has the facts right.
Achim
"Ronald Stoehr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
...
> If you blame MS, you should also blame RB. Both guys are bound by their
> contracts defining their roles in the TEAM. Why didn't RB just hit the
> gas pedal? He was pissed, but stayed within his contract, so did MS.
> Both are dedicated F1 drivers, and are willing to do a lot to not
> risk loosing the seat in that red car.
I forgot to add this URL, where DC says what he thinks...
http://www.planet-f1.com/news/article.html/f1/ENG?ref=9354
Achim
"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote:
And then there's the 1964 Mexican GP, final race of the season. Two
laps to go, Clark (leading the race and the championship) retires
putting Gurney into the lead. Bandini and Surtees are running 2nd and
3rd respectively for Ferrari. Surtees needs 6 points to clinch the
World Championship, so Ferrari orders Bandini to slow down and let
Surtees pass. Lorenzo obeys and Big John is the World Champion. (And
this after Bandini punted the only other championship contender,
Graham Hill, off the track at the hairpin early in the race). So,
team orders came into play on that day and nobody said anything
negative. Which raises the question: when are team orders okay and
when are they not? Is it okay if it's the final race of the season
and the championship's on the line, but not if it's the sixth race of
the season with a healthy championship lead?
Quoted text (12 lines)
>A friend yesterday reminded me of the Italian GP 1956, where a direct >competitor for that year's title yielded his car to another driver. > >This driver, Collins, came into the pits for a tire-check with 15 laps to >go, and yielded his car to Fangio, whose car had broken down with a >mechanical failure. Fangio accepted. > >Collins thereby gave up his chances for the title that year, while Fangio >finished second and took this year's title. His third in a row if >http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr056.html has the facts right. > >Achim
"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Yeah, well, there's been two World Wars too, doesn't mean we need another
one <G>
Just joking guys......................
Agreed though; happened before, it'll happen again.
Still sucks though.
-John
>
Quoted text (28 lines)
> "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >A friend yesterday reminded me of the Italian GP 1956, where a direct > >competitor for that year's title yielded his car to another driver. > > > >This driver, Collins, came into the pits for a tire-check with 15 laps to > >go, and yielded his car to Fangio, whose car had broken down with a > >mechanical failure. Fangio accepted. > > > >Collins thereby gave up his chances for the title that year, while Fangio > >finished second and took this year's title. His third in a row if > >http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr056.html has the facts right. > > > >Achim > > And then there's the 1964 Mexican GP, final race of the season. Two > laps to go, Clark (leading the race and the championship) retires > putting Gurney into the lead. Bandini and Surtees are running 2nd and > 3rd respectively for Ferrari. Surtees needs 6 points to clinch the > World Championship, so Ferrari orders Bandini to slow down and let > Surtees pass. Lorenzo obeys and Big John is the World Champion. (And > this after Bandini punted the only other championship contender, > Graham Hill, off the track at the hairpin early in the race). So, > team orders came into play on that day and nobody said anything > negative. Which raises the question: when are team orders okay and > when are they not? Is it okay if it's the final race of the season > and the championship's on the line, but not if it's the sixth race of > the season with a healthy championship lead?
"Ronald Stoehr" <
>
> snip
>
> > For those of you who think MS should have ignored the team orders - howearly
> > was that decision made? If it was only ordered on the last lap, theremight
> > not have been enough time for the drivers to really think it through.If they
> > had 10 laps to discuss it, maybe MS could have argued on RB's behalf. Iagree
> > that Michael would not have been punished if he disobeyed that order,and let
> > Rubens take the victory. We just don't know how long the discussionwas...
Wouldn't that have made for dramatic TV...Ruebens slows down and MS,
rather than pass him by, locks up all for wheels in a billowing cloud of
smoke. RB gets the hint and crosses first....ah well...all that smoke must
have been a pipe dream.
>
> I'm with you on all points. MS stated in an interview that this was notdiscussed
> before the race. He was surprised when he was told on the last lap that RBwould
> let him pass. Of course, all the MS haters don't believe one single wordhe
> says, so he probably bullied RB on the radio into submission, or maybe MS
> really has a red button on his steering wheel labeled "RB engine off" ...;)
>
> --
> l8er
> ronny I'm a-bit leery of MS's last lap explanation. RB began slowing down for
each of the last 4 laps. He had been running 1:09's easily, at the end all
his laps were in the 1:10 range....How do they do that btw....??? let off
or push harder for such tiny increments...astounds me with the clocks they
must have in their heads...
dave henrie
> Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change
> to take effect. Reboot now?
>
Ronald Stoehr wrote:
MS is one of the few drivers that could pull this off & survive.
Ferrari couldn't fire him for it, could you imagine the public backlash
over *that*? With his skills, they won't refuse to renew his contract
either. Instead of childish, I'd call it streetwise. Knowing where you
can push & where you can't.
> Following orders from your boss doesn't
> make you a whore, it just helps keeping you employed.
Although it's OT & has been discussed here once before, in the last 6
years where I work we've had 7 bosses. We are auto mechanics. If/when
they step too far out of line, we all band together & write repair
orders in such a way that our company cannot collect warranty money.
The managers end up unemployed. Even the small worker has some areas
where he wields power. He just needs the insight to see it & the
backbone to capitalize on it.
> Also, any political system invented by humans had a command structure,
> and any future system (should it be invented) will have it, too... ;)
Agreed. But when laws/orders are *wrong*, will you comply anyways?
That would be hard to respect. Guess the anarchist in me doesn't
understand such thinking.
--
Fester
Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8)
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02
Quoted text (19 lines)
> Uncle Fester wrote: > >> >> Although I like you personally, this is a most repulsive statement. >> It makes you sound like a Corporate Whore as well. The individual >> should come first, not the organization. When the organization gets >> out of place, they need to be put back in their place by the >> individual. Like MS using his brakes & refusing their false win. And >> it's not anti-MS jealousy talking either. I'd feel the same if it had >> been JPM or anyone else. Instead by playing along with the Ferrari >> organization, he sold his character & morals for $$. What better >> example of a Corporate Whore? > > > > What a childish view of the world. Sorry for the harsh words, but unless > you succeed in world revolution, this is idealistic dreaming. MS is a > very dedicated racer and does (meanwhile) not give a rats ass about money, > he just wants to race this car.Gerry Aitken wrote:
>
> Tough situation?! Yeah right, my heart bleeds for him...no really, it
> does...honest.
:-D
--
Fester
Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8)
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02
EldredP wrote:
> For those of you who think MS should have ignored the team orders - how early
> was that decision made? If it was only ordered on the last lap, there might
> not have been enough time for the drivers to really think it through. If they
> had 10 laps to discuss it, maybe MS could have argued on RB's behalf. I agree
> that Michael would not have been punished if he disobeyed that order, and let
> Rubens take the victory. We just don't know how long the discussion was...
Does it really matter how long they had? With any character, once RB
pulled over to let him pass, MS should have stopped as well. Let
Ferrari pay the ultimate price for such a bad decision by not getting
anything out of it. The FIA has already said these things (fixed
outcomes) cannot happen again, so you think Ferrari would fire MS for
it? For refusing to break FIA rules? Hardly. Bet any other teams
would think twice before trying such team orders too, if it was felt
their drivers would possibly do the same thing.
These guys need a union. :-P
--
Fester
Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8)
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02
"Bob"
(snipage)
> car finally stopped. I was about 20 feet away and could plainly hear
> Nigel revving the engine and trying to find a gear.
Now now...don't be confounding and/or clouding up this thread with facts
and actual 'I was there' stuff, we won't stand for it....
dave henrie
">
> 2. Ferrari do not, I repeat, do not, give one flying fuck about the
> manufacturer's championship. It is their strategy to back one horse for
> the driver's championship. The manf title has always only ever been a
> consolation prize, nobody really cares about it.
> I thought it was the other way around...the year MS broke his leg, they
were all trumpeting the manufactuer champeenship.
Now....I do have a theory.....
Eddie Irvine 'could' have been world champion at Ferrari BEFORE MS.
Remember how MS broke his leg, and Eddie takes charge. At Hockenheimring, a
Mercedes track if there ever was one, Eddie storms through the field and
wins...
Next race Eddie can clinch the title, but the new pieces that were on the
car for Hock are not there in (Japan or Malyasia...I forgets which) Eddie
comments on that....and goes much slower Mika takes command of the Driver
points. MS returns, the new pieces are back for the final race, and MS
drives away...Eddie can't match Mika's pace in the last race and Mika
wins...Eddie, comes in 2nd for the drivers title....perhaps if Ferrari
wasn't so fixated on winning the title with Michael, then Eddie
coulda/shoulda won it before him....
dave henrie
(my apologies if If I scrambled up the exact details but the gist is there)
"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
him
I remember that race as I was following the championship closely. There was
certainly a lot of controversy about Bandinis behaviour particularly over
the Hill punt. MANY negative things were said then but time has reduced the
1964 season to nothing more than dry facts now. Anyway this is apples to
oranges; in 1964 it was the last race of the season and the math of the
championship was obvious.
Another one who considers the latest fiasco disgusting
David
Quoted text (14 lines)
> > And then there's the 1964 Mexican GP, final race of the season. Two > laps to go, Clark (leading the race and the championship) retires > putting Gurney into the lead. Bandini and Surtees are running 2nd and > 3rd respectively for Ferrari. Surtees needs 6 points to clinch the > World Championship, so Ferrari orders Bandini to slow down and let > Surtees pass. Lorenzo obeys and Big John is the World Champion. (And > this after Bandini punted the only other championship contender, > Graham Hill, off the track at the hairpin early in the race). So, > team orders came into play on that day and nobody said anything > negative. Which raises the question: when are team orders okay and > when are they not? Is it okay if it's the final race of the season > and the championship's on the line, but not if it's the sixth race of > the season with a healthy championship lead?Bob <[email hidden]> wrote in
> Absolutely false. Two way telemetry did not exist in F1 until this
> year, and was certainly NOT in effect in 1991, the year to which you
> are probably referring (Canadian GP). If you are suggesting that
No it was a British GP, I don't recall the year.
That was certainly the story at the time.
cheers
John
"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in
They had been told not to push, and it was the very last lap than Todt
passed Brawn a "note". They made great mention of it on the ITV commentary.
cheers
John
Quoted text (7 lines)
> I'm a-bit leery of MS's last lap explanation. RB began slowing > down for > each of the last 4 laps. He had been running 1:09's easily, at the > end all his laps were in the 1:10 range....How do they do that > btw....??? let off or push harder for such tiny > increments...astounds me with the clocks they must have in their > heads... dave henrie
I feel sorry for Rubens, you cant blame a team from having a second
driver that is not the same level as your number one driver, but
sabotaging the results this way, is not very nice. I can understand they
want as much points as they can for a certain driver, but to let the
other driver pay for it with a victory, is very doubtful to me. Rubens
should raise a complaint to F1 for bad behaviour of his team. It IS a
sport, NOT a business, some things you just don't do.
Other propositions for Ferrari:
- choose a second driver with more money and less experience
- decide to go for a one-car team, and search for a false reason why
- pay other teams
- pay F1
- blackmail ppl
- buy the other teams
- sabotage some cars (including the 2nd drivers car)
Now some things come clear to me, remember all of the races of this
season, Barrichello having surprisingly much 'bad luck' with his car,
while Schumachers cars just ran fine ... any race. It all smells bad.
"Wayne M. Grenon" wrote:
--
rgds,
Tony
Quoted text (40 lines)
> > Hey Dave, > > I guess I must be the melodrama queen, ehh? > > I am not a fan of NASCAR the way I am a fan of F1, Cart, IRL, Barber Dodge > etc,etc,etc... > > I just feel that the fans were robbed of seeing the hard work and trouble > that Ruben's been through this year pay off. Sometimes the nice guys should > win.... > > BTW, I am a Jaguar fan (but I'm starting to regret that path :) > > Wayne > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:FLCD8.156901$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > Just finished reading through this thread and all I can say is it's > full > > > of > > > > bullshit from the usual F1/MS bashers and some mello-drama queens. > > > Tempting > > > > to respond to a few of them, but I've got some better things to do > right > > > > now. > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > I'm hoping you're not putting me in that catagory Dave.............. > > > > > > -John > > > > No, I wasn't. Sorry about that. > > > > David G Fisher > > > >In article <[email hidden]>, JM
<[email hidden]> writes:
>1. Yes they can shut the car off with two way telemetry, I'm reminded of a
>certain N.Mansell waving to the crowd with a comfortable lead on his final
>lap and the gesture being mistaken from the pit as a warning, and the car
>rolling to a stop.
The team SHUT OFF his car?!? What year was that? If you could point to a
resource somewhere, I'd appreciate it...
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure
breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a
donation. Thank you.
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
In article <[email hidden]>, Uncle Fester <[email hidden]>
writes:
If the drivers weren't notified until the last lap, I can see there being some
confusion about it.
I still think that it's a TEAM decision, and the FIA shouldn't have anything to
do with it. Teams make decisions about/for their drivers all the time.
Example: there's a start line crash, both team cars are damaged, and there's
only one backup car. Of course, the #1 driver gets the backup for the restart.
Yeah, that's an extreme example, but it's the same thing...
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure
breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a
donation. Thank you.
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (25 lines)
>EldredP wrote: > >> For those of you who think MS should have ignored the team orders - how >early >> was that decision made? If it was only ordered on the last lap, there >might >> not have been enough time for the drivers to really think it through. If >they >> had 10 laps to discuss it, maybe MS could have argued on RB's behalf. I >agree >> that Michael would not have been punished if he disobeyed that order, and >let >> Rubens take the victory. We just don't know how long the discussion was... > > >Does it really matter how long they had? With any character, once RB >pulled over to let him pass, MS should have stopped as well. Let >Ferrari pay the ultimate price for such a bad decision by not getting >anything out of it. The FIA has already said these things (fixed >outcomes) cannot happen again, so you think Ferrari would fire MS for >it? For refusing to break FIA rules? Hardly. Bet any other teams >would think twice before trying such team orders too, if it was felt >their drivers would possibly do the same thing. > >These guys need a union. :-PIn article <[email hidden]>, Tony Van Cauter
<[email hidden]> writes:
>Now some things come clear to me, remember all of the races of this
>season, Barrichello having surprisingly much 'bad luck' with his car,
>while Schumachers cars just ran fine ... any race. It all smells bad.
Also, Rubens didn't even HAVE the 2002 car for a couple of races, but Michael
did. What's up with THAT?
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure
breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a
donation. Thank you.
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
It was for 1 race (Brazil), and they only had 1 car available.
They had to risk trying the F2002 (even though they were unsure of it's
reliability) because they believed F 2001 wasn't fast enough.
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spam>
"EldredP" wrote
> Also, Rubens didn't even HAVE the 2002 car for a couple of races, but
Michael
> did. What's up with THAT?
Uncle Fester wrote:
> Ronald Stoehr wrote:
>
>> Uncle Fester wrote:
>>snip
Well, you can have your morals and ethical standards. If my boss orders
me to do things that are not illegal (punishable by law) but I just don't
want to do them, I have not option but to quit.
Clearly MS and RB were not ordered to do something illegal, but something
that is the basis for any team sport.
--
l8er
ronny
Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change
to take effect. Reboot now?
Quoted text (8 lines)
>> Also, any political system invented by humans had a command structure, >> and any future system (should it be invented) will have it, too... ;) > > > > Agreed. But when laws/orders are *wrong*, will you comply anyways? That > would be hard to respect. Guess the anarchist in me doesn't understand > such thinking.Dave Henrie wrote:
> Remember how MS broke his leg, and Eddie takes charge. At Hockenheimring, a
> Mercedes track if there ever was one, Eddie storms through the field and
> wins...
Hakkinen was leading this race when his tyre delaminated.
Irvine didn't storm through the field to win. Mika Salo, who was Michael
Schumacher's replacement while MS was recovering from the broken leg, was then
leading the race and he pulled over to let Irvine win, following team orders!!!
And why did they want Irvine to win instead of Salo? Because they wanted Irvine
to win the championship, obviously.
> Next race Eddie can clinch the title, but the new pieces that were on the
> car for Hock are not there in (Japan or Malyasia...I forgets which) Eddie
> comments on that....and goes much slower
The next race was Hungary. Irvine was nowhere near a point to clinching the
title - there were six races left in the season (Hungary, Spa, Nurburgring,
Monza, Malaysia, and Suzuka). I have no idea what you're talking about
regarding the "missing pieces".
> Mika takes command of the Driver
> points.
Mika never took command of the driving championship points. Irvine held the
lead going into the last race of the season.
> MS returns, the new pieces are back for the final race, and MS
> drives away...
Schumacher returned for the Malaysian Grand Prix, the penultimate race of the
year. You surely remember that he was leading the race when he, yes you
guessed it, pulled over for Irvine following team orders, then held up Hakkinen
giving Irvine the win and the championship lead going into the final race.
Both Ferraris were subsequently DQ'ed because of some pieces on their car being
out of spec. Ferrari then successfully appealed to the FIA and got the result
reinstated. Why would they do this if they wanted Irvine to lose?
And MS didn't drive away at Suzuka, Hakkinen won the race, which gave him the
championship.
> Eddie can't match Mika's pace in the last race and Mika
> wins...Eddie, comes in 2nd for the drivers title....perhaps if Ferrari
> wasn't so fixated on winning the title with Michael, then Eddie
> coulda/shoulda won it before him....
> dave henrie
> (my apologies if If I scrambled up the exact details but the gist is there)
No, the gist is not there. Here you imply that Ferrari didn't want Irvine to
win the championship. Ferrari clearly wanted Irvine to win the championship
once Schumacher was injured and used team orders twice gifting Irvine wins to
achieve that aim.
While I am furious at Ferrari (and I am a fan of both Ferrari and Schumacher)
for what they did to Barrichello, this has nothing to do with them wanting
Schumacher (in particular) to win races. They want the driver with the best
chance of winning (obviously Schumacher now and Irvine in the latter stages of
1999) to maximize his points so that he will win the championship.
You will also recall last year, after Schumacher clinched the driver's title
and the team clinched the constructor's, that Schumacher drove in support of
Barrichello, because Ferrari wanted RB to maximize his points so that he would
finish second in the championship (for example, Schumacher let RB by early in
the race at Indy).
Dave Ewing
--
*****************************************************
David A. Ewing
Xilinx Colorado [email hidden]
*****************************************************
"David Ewing" <
> > (my apologies if If I scrambled up the exact details but the gist isthere)
>
> No, the gist is not there. Here you imply that Ferrari didn't want Irvineto
> win the championship. Ferrari clearly wanted Irvine to win thechampionship
> once Schumacher was injured and used team orders twice gifting Irvine winsto
> achieve that aim.
>
> While I am furious at Ferrari (and I am a fan of both Ferrari andSchumacher)
> for what they did to Barrichello, this has nothing to do with them wanting
> Schumacher (in particular) to win races. They want the driver with thebest
> chance of winning (obviously Schumacher now and Irvine in the latterstages of
> 1999) to maximize his points so that he will win the championship.
>
> You will also recall last year, after Schumacher clinched the driver'stitle
> and the team clinched the constructor's, that Schumacher drove in supportof
> Barrichello, because Ferrari wanted RB to maximize his points so that hewould
> finish second in the championship (for example, Schumacher let RB by earlyin
> the race at Indy).
>
> Dave Ewing
Well as usual I couldn't find the Irvine quote I was looking for...only a
vague reference to getting the car back to being as good before the
Nurb/Euro race. Not the proof I wanted so I'll not press the issue.
I did see tho, that the Jaguar announcement was made with several races to
go in the season. Maybe my memory is suffering the effects of too many
virtual crashes...but I just didn't get the feeling Irvine had the full
backing of Ferrari when it really counted...oh well.
:) I'm sure this won't be the last time I'm trounced by facts! :)
dave henrie
