F1 has become the WWF of Auto Racing

The title says it all. How deplorable for Ferrari and the sport itself. It certainly has lost my veiwership and support after this.

I'm starting to think MS would f*ck his sister if it would help him win. Sickening, really. "Robert Allen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:xWGD8.65675$[email hidden]...

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> The title says it all. > > How deplorable for Ferrari and the sport itself. It certainly has lost my > veiwership and support after this. > > > > >

Harsh words, but not too far from the truth I'm afraid. How pathetic it will be to see the world champion win by gifts from his team mate. Rafe Mc On Mon, 13 May 2002 04:44:56 GMT, "rik zeppelin" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I'm starting to think MS would f*ck his sister if it would help him win. >Sickening, really. > >"Robert Allen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:xWGD8.65675$[email hidden]... >> The title says it all. >> >> How deplorable for Ferrari and the sport itself. It certainly has lost my >> veiwership and support after this. >> >> >> >> >> >

actually at work last nite, I started using the phrase WWF1 to describe my feelings "Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Harsh words, but not too far from the truth I'm afraid. How pathetic > it will be to see the world champion win by gifts from his team mate. > > Rafe Mc > > > On Mon, 13 May 2002 04:44:56 GMT, "rik zeppelin" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >I'm starting to think MS would f*ck his sister if it would help him win. > >Sickening, really. > > > >"Robert Allen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:xWGD8.65675$[email hidden]... > >> The title says it all. > >> > >> How deplorable for Ferrari and the sport itself. It certainly has lost

my

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> >> veiwership and support after this. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >

I think the "MS fucking his sister to win" comment is a little over-the-top. I'm assuming it wasn't MS's decision to do what happened, rather it was the Ferrari Team decision and MS obeyed as a paid employee should. I'm guessing that Ferrari doesn't want to take any chances with winning the title, and I don't blame them after putting millions and millions of dollars into it. Although, I was really pissed off at first and disgusted when I first saw the incident. But, I do sort of understand the reasoning behind it. If anything, get mad at the FIA for letting that happen, or Ferrari for wanting to win. Don't get mad at MS for probably just doing his job. Mike http://mikebeauchamp.com "Thomas Kellenstine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > actually at work last nite, I started using the phrase WWF1 to describemy

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> feelings > "Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Harsh words, but not too far from the truth I'm afraid. How pathetic > > it will be to see the world champion win by gifts from his team mate. > > > > Rafe Mc > > > > > > On Mon, 13 May 2002 04:44:56 GMT, "rik zeppelin" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >I'm starting to think MS would f*ck his sister if it would help him

win.

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> > >Sickening, really. > > > > > >"Robert Allen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > >news:xWGD8.65675$[email hidden]... > > >> The title says it all. > > >> > > >> How deplorable for Ferrari and the sport itself. It certainly has

lost

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> my > > >> veiwership and support after this. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >

"Robert Allen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:xWGD8.65675$[email hidden]...

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> The title says it all. > > How deplorable for Ferrari and the sport itself. It certainly has lost my > veiwership and support after this. > > > >

I heard Jodi Scheckter virtually condoning the actions on radio 5 Live today.. He reckons any team would do the same.

Mike Beauchamp wrote:

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> > I think the "MS fucking his sister to win" comment is a little over-the-top. > > I'm assuming it wasn't MS's decision to do what happened, rather it was the > Ferrari Team decision and MS obeyed as a paid employee should. I'm guessing > that Ferrari doesn't want to take any chances with winning the title, and I > don't blame them after putting millions and millions of dollars into it. > > Although, I was really pissed off at first and disgusted when I first saw > the incident. But, I do sort of understand the reasoning behind it. If > anything, get mad at the FIA for letting that happen, or Ferrari for wanting > to win. Don't get mad at MS for probably just doing his job.

Sorry Mike, but history is littered with people who were just "doing their job/doing what they had been told", MS is apparently a fairly intelligent person with a very high standing within the team, he was either part of the decision or condoned it by his participation It's not like he'd get fired if he didn't obey, so other than possibly putting his 5th WDC in jeopardy, and that's a very tiny "possible" by the looks of things, he wasn't risking much by not obeying, Ferrari would still get 16 team points You'd think a person with 4 WDC's behind him, not to mention more wins than any other F1 driver in history, would be big enough to risk his 5th by letting his teammate, who he himself says is the best team mate he has ever had, get a well deserved win Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

"redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > I heard Jodi Scheckter virtually condoning the actions on radio 5 Livetoday.. He reckons > any team would do the same. >Here is the reaction from Sterling Moss "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it. It is an endorsement of why I'm glad I'm not in F1 today. I cannot think of anything more harmful to the image of the sport or Ferrari. The magnitude of the disaster in terms of Ferrari's PR could be incalculable. I feel sorry for Rubens and for Michael, who clearly did not want any part of it." Stirling Moss (Lifted from rasf1m, original poster Stephen Baines)

I wasn't justifying it or anything, and I definately wasn't talking about everyone in history who was "just doing their job". I was just saying that a comment like "he'd fuck his sister to win" might be going a bit too far. Sheesh.. I guess it's my fault for offering my opinion on this whole F1 thing.. seems to be a touchy subject for everyone involved. Mike http://mikebeauchamp.com "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Mike Beauchamp wrote: > > > > I think the "MS fucking his sister to win" comment is a littleover-the-top. > > > > I'm assuming it wasn't MS's decision to do what happened, rather it wasthe > > Ferrari Team decision and MS obeyed as a paid employee should. I'mguessing > > that Ferrari doesn't want to take any chances with winning the title,and I > > don't blame them after putting millions and millions of dollars into it. > > > > Although, I was really pissed off at first and disgusted when I firstsaw > > the incident. But, I do sort of understand the reasoning behind it. If > > anything, get mad at the FIA for letting that happen, or Ferrari forwanting

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> > to win. Don't get mad at MS for probably just doing his job. > > Sorry Mike, but history is littered with people who were just "doing > their job/doing what they had been told", MS is apparently a fairly > intelligent person with a very high standing within the team, he was > either part of the decision or condoned it by his participation > > It's not like he'd get fired if he didn't obey, so other than possibly > putting his 5th WDC in jeopardy, and that's a very tiny "possible" by > the looks of things, he wasn't risking much by not obeying, Ferrari > would still get 16 team points > > You'd think a person with 4 WDC's behind him, not to mention more wins > than any other F1 driver in history, would be big enough to risk his 5th > by letting his teammate, who he himself says is the best team mate he > has ever had, get a well deserved win > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" > --Groucho Marx--

Mike Beauchamp wrote:

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> > I wasn't justifying it or anything, and I definately wasn't talking about > everyone in history who was "just doing their job". I was just saying that a > comment like "he'd fuck his sister to win" might be going a bit too far. > Sheesh.. > > I guess it's my fault for offering my opinion on this whole F1 thing.. seems > to be a touchy subject for everyone involved.

Your opinion is as valid as anyone else, I just happen to no agree with you, if I didn't appreciate your opinion you would have known as I'm not famous for my diplomatic skills :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Fair enough Goy.. mike http://mikebeauchamp.com "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Mike Beauchamp wrote: > > > > I wasn't justifying it or anything, and I definately wasn't talkingabout > > everyone in history who was "just doing their job". I was just sayingthat a > > comment like "he'd fuck his sister to win" might be going a bit too far. > > Sheesh.. > > > > I guess it's my fault for offering my opinion on this whole F1 thing..seems

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> > to be a touchy subject for everyone involved. > > Your opinion is as valid as anyone else, I just happen to no agree with > you, if I didn't appreciate your opinion you would have known as I'm not > famous for my diplomatic skills :-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Goy Larsen wrote: > snip > > Sorry Mike, but history is littered with people who were just "doing > their job/doing what they had been told", MS is apparently a fairly > intelligent person with a very high standing within the team, he was > either part of the decision or condoned it by his participation So was Rubens. > > It's not like he'd get fired if he didn't obey, so other than possibly > putting his 5th WDC in jeopardy, and that's a very tiny "possible" by > the looks of things, he wasn't risking much by not obeying, Ferrari > would still get 16 team points How would he have done it? By slowing down? As RB was playing his role, both would have probably slowed down to a crawl. Now THAT would have looked funny. Both drivers were ORDERED, both want to drive those cars (money is factor for those guys anymore). -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now?

Ronald Stoehr wrote:

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> > Goy Larsen wrote: > > > > snip > > > > Sorry Mike, but history is littered with people who were just "doing > > their job/doing what they had been told", MS is apparently a fairly > > intelligent person with a very high standing within the team, he was > > either part of the decision or condoned it by his participation > > So was Rubens. > > > It's not like he'd get fired if he didn't obey, so other than possibly > > putting his 5th WDC in jeopardy, and that's a very tiny "possible" by > > the looks of things, he wasn't risking much by not obeying, Ferrari > > would still get 16 team points > > How would he have done it? By slowing down? As RB was playing his > role, both would have probably slowed down to a crawl. Now THAT would > have looked funny. Both drivers were ORDERED, both want to drive those > cars (money is factor for those guys anymore).

True, but Rubens hopes that his day with the team will come some day, so he has everything to lose, and we might argue that he's a coward for rolling over like that, but Michael isn't risking anything at all As for how he would have done it, all he had to do was not pass Rubens, Rubens would have followed his lead as the lap dog he has become and they could have paraded across the S/F line, and Michael would have been remembered as the guy who refused to take the win he was offered, it would have cost him little if anything within the team management, it would have boosted his popularity elsewhere no end Hell, even *I* would have respected him as a person for that one, and I don't like him much, don't get me wrong, I'll admit to his enormous talent any day, I'll even admit that he might just go down in history as the most talented driver ever, but I'll never respect him Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Well as an "ugly american", and NASCAR fan, this has about done it for me with modern F1 racing. I have really tried to watch and enjoy this part of the sport, but I can't watch this anymore. For myself I think this would not have been an issue IF MS had been in a tight points race with someone, anyone. But now this season should have a big asterisk next to it, as I think MS is on his way to breaking some very long standing records, in regards of most wins/championships or something, and being handed this win takes away from what otherwise would have been a fairly important feat. It's much like a recent event in American Football, when a defensive player was allowed to sack the quarterback, by the quarterback, and broke a long standing record for most sacks in a year. The record was tarnished. I mean this isn't a relaxed game of golf, there should be no "gimme's" in motorsports, team orders or not. Just my thoughts. Brit btgoss # 146 "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Ronald Stoehr wrote: > > > > Goy Larsen wrote: > > > > > > > snip > > > > > > Sorry Mike, but history is littered with people who were just "doing > > > their job/doing what they had been told", MS is apparently a fairly > > > intelligent person with a very high standing within the team, he was > > > either part of the decision or condoned it by his participation > > > > So was Rubens. > > > > > It's not like he'd get fired if he didn't obey, so other than possibly > > > putting his 5th WDC in jeopardy, and that's a very tiny "possible" by > > > the looks of things, he wasn't risking much by not obeying, Ferrari > > > would still get 16 team points > > > > How would he have done it? By slowing down? As RB was playing his > > role, both would have probably slowed down to a crawl. Now THAT would > > have looked funny. Both drivers were ORDERED, both want to drive those > > cars (money is factor for those guys anymore). > > True, but Rubens hopes that his day with the team will come some day, so > he has everything to lose, and we might argue that he's a coward for > rolling over like that, but Michael isn't risking anything at all > > As for how he would have done it, all he had to do was not pass Rubens, > Rubens would have followed his lead as the lap dog he has become and > they could have paraded across the S/F line, and Michael would have been > remembered as the guy who refused to take the win he was offered, it > would have cost him little if anything within the team management, it > would have boosted his popularity elsewhere no end > > Hell, even *I* would have respected him as a person for that one, and I > don't like him much, don't get me wrong, I'll admit to his enormous > talent any day, I'll even admit that he might just go down in history as > the most talented driver ever, but I'll never respect him > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

> It's much like a recent event in American Football, when a defensive player > was allowed to sack the quarterback, by the quarterback, and broke a long > standing record for most sacks in a year. The record was tarnished. > I mean this isn't a relaxed game of golf, there should be no "gimme's" in > motorsports, team orders or not. Well golf has more honour and discipline than any other sport I've ever seen.. It may bore some to death but the standards it set's for sportsmanship are un-equalled by any sport.

"redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:abpcbs$jss2q$[email hidden]... > > > It's much like a recent event in American Football, when a defensiveplayer > > was allowed to sack the quarterback, by the quarterback, and broke along > > standing record for most sacks in a year. The record was tarnished. > > I mean this isn't a relaxed game of golf, there should be no "gimme's"in > > motorsports, team orders or not. > > Well golf has more honour and discipline than any other sport I've everseen.. It may bore > some to death but the standards it set's for sportsmanship areun-equalled by any sport. > Unless your TW and need a bit of help with a "movable obstruction" :O) Rules! They are all a matter of interpretation and that is the loophole that allows some to go around the "spirit of the law". Annoying! Elrikk

Goy Larsen wrote:

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> > Sorry Mike, but history is littered with people who were just "doing > their job/doing what they had been told", MS is apparently a fairly > intelligent person with a very high standing within the team, he was > either part of the decision or condoned it by his participation > > It's not like he'd get fired if he didn't obey, so other than possibly > putting his 5th WDC in jeopardy, and that's a very tiny "possible" by > the looks of things, he wasn't risking much by not obeying, Ferrari > would still get 16 team points > > You'd think a person with 4 WDC's behind him, not to mention more wins > than any other F1 driver in history, would be big enough to risk his 5th > by letting his teammate, who he himself says is the best team mate he > has ever had, get a well deserved win

Bingo! This man has hit the nail on the head. Great post Goy. -- Fester Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8) -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02

Ronald Stoehr wrote: > How would he have done it? By slowing down? As RB was playing his > role, both would have probably slowed down to a crawl. Now THAT would > have looked funny. Both drivers were ORDERED, both want to drive those > cars (money is factor for those guys anymore). That's *exactly* what should have happened. Ferrari wouldn't DARE fire them for that. And even if Ferrari did, it would speak loads for their moral character on their resume. :-) -- Fester Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8) -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02

rik zeppelin wrote:

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> Here is the reaction from Sterling Moss > "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If > they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff > it. It is an endorsement of why I'm glad I'm not in F1 today. I cannot > think of anything more harmful to the image of the sport or Ferrari. The > magnitude of the disaster in terms of Ferrari's PR could be > incalculable. I feel sorry for Rubens and for Michael, who clearly did > not want any part of it."

Now there's someone with the balls to stand up to his employer when they are wrong. Highly commendable. -- Fester Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8) -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> 4/15/02

This is what I was hoping to see from Schumacher. To finally see him show some balls and gain back some respect but he continues to choose the party line and why not. It benefits Schumacher and Schumacher alone to do so. I've lost a fair bit of respect for Reubens as well. The "They pay me to lose" attitude he has accepted is fit for a loser. I can still respect Irvine though. Robert "rik zeppelin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:nJTD8.6020$[email hidden]...

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> > > Here is the reaction from Sterling Moss > "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If > they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff > it. It is an endorsement of why I'm glad I'm not in F1 today. I cannot > think of anything more harmful to the image of the sport or Ferrari. The > magnitude of the disaster in terms of Ferrari's PR could be > incalculable. I feel sorry for Rubens and for Michael, who clearly did > not want any part of it." > > Stirling Moss > > (Lifted from rasf1m, original poster Stephen Baines) > > >

Precisely Goy. In the grand scheme of things Ferrari or any other team for that matter is only concerned with constructor points which Ferrari got full points for that day whether Reubens was #1 or #2. Frank Williams has always contended that he really doesn't care which of his drivers if any won the Drivers championship. It's Contructor points that matter. It would be the same for Ferrari. It was just another selfish decision for Schumacher to not let Reubens win. What's Ferrari going to do? Fire Schumacher? Sure... "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > It's not like he'd get fired if he didn't obey, so other than possibly > putting his 5th WDC in jeopardy, and that's a very tiny "possible" by > the looks of things, he wasn't risking much by not obeying, Ferrari > would still get 16 team points > > You'd think a person with 4 WDC's behind him, not to mention more wins > than any other F1 driver in history, would be big enough to risk his 5th > by letting his teammate, who he himself says is the best team mate he > has ever had, get a well deserved win > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" > --Groucho Marx--

In article <abpcbs$jss2q$[email hidden]>, redTed <[email hidden]> writes

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> >> It's much like a recent event in American Football, when a defensive player >> was allowed to sack the quarterback, by the quarterback, and broke a long >> standing record for most sacks in a year. The record was tarnished. >> I mean this isn't a relaxed game of golf, there should be no "gimme's" in >> motorsports, team orders or not. > >Well golf has more honour and discipline than any other sport I've ever >seen.. It may bore >some to death but the standards it set's for sportsmanship are un-equalled >by any sport. > >

Dunno if you would call snooker a sport, but sometimes refs don't always spot every foul and yet these guys tell the referee when they've made a foul during their shot. Can't get more sporting than that. :) -- Peter Ives Remove ALL_STRESS only before sending me an email

As long as you aren't black. David G Fisher "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:abpcbs$jss2q$[email hidden]... > > > It's much like a recent event in American Football, when a defensiveplayer > > was allowed to sack the quarterback, by the quarterback, and broke along > > standing record for most sacks in a year. The record was tarnished. > > I mean this isn't a relaxed game of golf, there should be no "gimme's"in > > motorsports, team orders or not. > > Well golf has more honour and discipline than any other sport I've everseen.. It may bore > some to death but the standards it set's for sportsmanship areun-equalled by any sport. > > >

As long as you aren't black. David G Fisher un-equalled by any sport.

In article <i9hE8.17698$[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>As long as you aren't black. > >David G Fisher > >> Well golf has more honour and discipline than any other sport I've ever >seen.. It may bore >> some to death but the standards it set's for sportsmanship are >un-equalled by any sport.

Ouch... Touche', though. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> As long as you aren't black. >> Well golf has more honour and discipline than any other sport I've ever >> seen.. It may bore some to death but the standards it set's for >> sportsmanship are un-equalled by any sport. You mean like Tiger Woods? -- Dave Casey www.lasvegashomesdirect.com www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

EldredP wrote:

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> > In article <i9hE8.17698$[email hidden]>, "David G > Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: > > >As long as you aren't black. > > > >David G Fisher > > > > >> Well golf has more honour and discipline than any other sport I've ever > >seen.. It may bore > >> some to death but the standards it set's for sportsmanship are > >un-equalled by any sport. > > Ouch... Touche', though.

Bit OT I guess, but I'd like to get a brief recap here if possible ? I'm not into golf so I guess I've missed something here... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

In article <[email hidden]>, Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> writes:

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>rik zeppelin wrote: > >> Here is the reaction from Sterling Moss >> "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If >> they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff >> it. It is an endorsement of why I'm glad I'm not in F1 today. I cannot >> think of anything more harmful to the image of the sport or Ferrari. The >> magnitude of the disaster in terms of Ferrari's PR could be >> incalculable. I feel sorry for Rubens and for Michael, who clearly did >> not want any part of it." > > >Now there's someone with the balls to stand up to his employer when they >are wrong. Highly commendable.

But would he have said "stuff it" as Rubens or as Michael? Two VASTLY different things, actually. Different from position of power, or possible reprimands, or even job security... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> writes: >Bit OT I guess, but I'd like to get a brief recap here if possible ? > >I'm not into golf so I guess I've missed something here... Golf has typically been one of those "good 'ol boy" sports where blacks were denied access. I'm sure there are a lot of people who are pissed off that Tiger Woods has done so well... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure breast cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a donation. Thank you. Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote: > > Golf has typically been one of those "good 'ol boy" sports where blacks were > denied access. I'm sure there are a lot of people who are pissed off that > Tiger Woods has done so well... Oki, thx Oh well, never cared for golf anyways, now I have another excuse to bitch at those who do :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

> Golf has typically been one of those "good 'ol boy" sports where blackswere > denied access. I'm sure there are a lot of people who are pissed off that > Tiger Woods has done so well... I'm just bugged that Tiger has raised the profile of golf so that it now gets time on the nightly sports that used to be reserved for the only true sport: hockey ;)

[email hidden] (EldredP) writes:

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> In article <[email hidden]>, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Bit OT I guess, but I'd like to get a brief recap here if possible ? > > > >I'm not into golf so I guess I've missed something here... > > Golf has typically been one of those "good 'ol boy" sports where blacks were > denied access. I'm sure there are a lot of people who are pissed off that > Tiger Woods has done so well...

Nonono. They didn't deny blacks access at all. How silly would a caucasian caddie look? -- -asbjxrn

"Asbj�rn Bj�rnstad" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > [email hidden] (EldredP) writes: > > > In article <[email hidden]>, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]>writes: > > > > >Bit OT I guess, but I'd like to get a brief recap here if possible ? > > > > > >I'm not into golf so I guess I've missed something here... > > > > Golf has typically been one of those "good 'ol boy" sports where blackswere > > denied access. I'm sure there are a lot of people who are pissed offthat > > Tiger Woods has done so well... > > Nonono. They didn't deny blacks access at all. How silly would a > caucasian caddie look? > -- > -asbjxrn Hmmm......caucasian caddies haven't looked bad for the last several decades.........look closer next time. -John

"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> "Asbj��rn Bj��rnstad" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > [email hidden] (EldredP) writes: > > > > > Golf has typically been one of those "good 'ol boy" sports where blacks were > > > denied access. I'm sure there are a lot of people who are pissed off that > > > Tiger Woods has done so well... > > > > Nonono. They didn't deny blacks access at all. How silly would a > > caucasian caddie look? > > Hmmm......caucasian caddies haven't looked bad for the last several > decades.........look closer next time.

It's a joke, admittedly not a good one. And there is a difference between don't and didn't. Look closer next time. -- -asbjxrn

EldredP wrote: > But would he have said "stuff it" as Rubens or as Michael? Two VASTLY > different things, actually. Different from position of power, or possible > reprimands, or even job security... Or would he rather walk away from the sport rather than compromise his principles? I could picture Dale Sr. walking away first... -- Fester "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it." -- Stirling Moss

Stirling Moss, isn't he the guy who never won a world drivers championship? Isn't he from the era where drivers bought cars and there was no such thing as a contract? Although I don't support what Ferrari did in any way, breach of contract is illegal. If Rubens and Michael hadn't have done what they were told, their contracts would have been severed and any wages pending would not have been paid. Let's just say that Burti would have been racing in Monaco. If you do see it from Ferraris point of view, they do pay Michael �30million a year to win, not to come second to the driver earning one 6th of that. Chris "rik zeppelin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:nJTD8.6020$[email hidden]...

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> > "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > I heard Jodi Scheckter virtually condoning the actions on radio 5 Live > today.. He reckons > > any team would do the same. > > > Here is the reaction from Sterling Moss > "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If > they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff > it. It is an endorsement of why I'm glad I'm not in F1 today. I cannot > think of anything more harmful to the image of the sport or Ferrari. The > magnitude of the disaster in terms of Ferrari's PR could be > incalculable. I feel sorry for Rubens and for Michael, who clearly did > not want any part of it." > > Stirling Moss > > (Lifted from rasf1m, original poster Stephen Baines) > > >

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Stirling Moss, isn't he the guy who never won a world drivers championship? >Isn't he from the era where drivers bought cars and there was no such thing >as a contract? Although I don't support what Ferrari did in any way, breach >of contract is illegal. If Rubens and Michael hadn't have done what they >were told, their contracts would have been severed and any wages pending >would not have been paid. Let's just say that Burti would have been racing >in Monaco. If you do see it from Ferraris point of view, they do pay >Michael �30million a year to win, not to come second to the driver earning >one 6th of that.

And Moss still insists that there were no team orders at the 1955 British GP when he finished ahead of his team mate Fangio, although the popular feeling at the time was that there were definite team orders within the Mercedes team and that Fangio could have passed him anytime he wanted. Don't forget this was only 10 years after the end of WW2 and there was still a lot of anti-German sentiment in Britain. The story goes that Mercedes wanted a British driver to win in Britain in order to increase their popularity and to sell more cars. Don't know if it's true or not, probably no one will ever know for sure...

Goy Larsen wrote: > Ronald Stoehr wrote: > >>Goy Larsen wrote: >>snip > > Hell, even *I* would have respected him as a person for that one, and I > don't like him much, don't get me wrong, I'll admit to his enormous > talent any day, I'll even admit that he might just go down in history as > the most talented driver ever, but I'll never respect him As a person? We KNOW he's a great driver, we saw probably both quite a few interviews with him. Now I couldn't say that I know the guy enough to not respect him. Until I hear something really offensive from him, I can only judge his driving, not his personality. What do you know? Well, he's German. Is it that...? ;) -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now?

Uncle Fester wrote:

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> Ronald Stoehr wrote: > >> How would he have done it? By slowing down? As RB was playing his >> role, both would have probably slowed down to a crawl. Now THAT would >> have looked funny. Both drivers were ORDERED, both want to drive those >> cars (money is factor for those guys anymore). > > > > That's *exactly* what should have happened. Ferrari wouldn't DARE fire > them for that. And even if Ferrari did, it would speak loads for their > moral character on their resume. :-)

You do know what Mr. Williams does with drivers not following orders? ;) -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now?

Ronald Stoehr wrote:

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> > As a person? We KNOW he's a great driver, we saw probably both quite a few > interviews with him. Now I couldn't say that I know the guy enough to not > respect him. Until I hear something really offensive from him, I can only > judge his driving, not his personality. What do you know? > > Well, he's German. Is it that...? ;)

Nothing against Germans, not much anyways :-), Ralf comes across as an ok guy, and HHF is one of my fav drivers among the current crop, besides, how can you have something against people who built a track like the Nordschleife and put on such great shows as the Historic GP at Nurburgring every August, which I have attended a couple of times, not to mention has fostered such nice people as Herr Mantzel who did an excellent job of upping the performance of my Opel Manta a "little" :-), and no, I don't perceive MS to ne a typical German either, I've spent enough time in Germany to know better than that MS has been around long enough to let me form an opinion on him as a person, and it was particularly the way he acted towards Damon Hill that turned me away from him, and he has done nothing since to make me change my opinion, going against team orders and letting RB have his well deserved win in Austria would have gone a long way though I remember Clive James doing a show about the last GP to be held in Adelaide, and he invited both DH and MS for an interview, and then he asked both of them to talk about what they admired about the other one DH was polite enough and even though it might have been just because there was a camera there, he at least came up with something nice to say about MS, MS didn't bother to return the favor That and the kind of person it takes to run other people off the road on purpose makes me not like him, F1 cars aren't designed for that kind of racing, you want a contact sport, find something with roofs and fenders (No need to remind me that I'm also a huge fan of big E, but Nascar is a different sport from F1) So like I said, I'll acknowledge his talent as a driver, anything else would be silly really, but his attitude stinks.....all IMHO of course :-), I'll never own a Ferrari, I don't smoke (Marlboro) and Vodafones aren't on sale here, so they're not losing my business, but I won't keep that particular time slot open 17 Sundays a year anymore For me, racing is a passion, it's not a business, I understand that to indulge in the passion, teams must be run as a business, but when the business side of it completely takes over from the passion, then it's not for me anymore, and Ferrari crossed that line in Austria, they didn't even bother to pretend, and they've already stated that they will do the same in Monaco, showing that they don't have a clue as to what is going on with a large portion of the racing fans Oh well, back to pretending my Castrol Chevy is a Castrol Commodore and that Watkins Glen is Bathurst....:-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "Hey Papy, when are you going to fix the AI ?" --(uncle) Goy Larsen--

Ronald Stoehr wrote: > You do know what Mr. Williams does with drivers not following orders? ;) What do you think his reaction would be when his fired driver calls a news conference & announces he'd just been fired because he refused orders to fix a race? :-) That's exactly the tactic I'd take... -- Fester "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it." -- Stirling Moss

"Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Ronald Stoehr wrote: > > > You do know what Mr. Williams does with drivers not following orders? ;) > > > What do you think his reaction would be when his fired driver calls a > news conference & announces he'd just been fired because he refused > orders to fix a race? :-) That's exactly the tactic I'd take... > > > -- > > Fester >

Understand your point Fester, but bet a million; if what you say above happened, the FIA would bury that driver. He'd be on the street before the next day, press whitewashed, etc. -John

Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: > > That and the kind of person it takes to run other people off the road > on purpose makes me not like him, F1 cars aren't designed for that > kind of racing, you want a contact sport, find something with roofs > and fenders > What about one of these F1 cars? http://atp22.tripod.com/barford2/index.htm :-) cheers John

"John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Ronald Stoehr wrote: > Understand your point Fester, but bet a million; if what you say above > happened, the FIA would bury that driver. He'd be on the street beforethe > next day, press whitewashed, etc. Such is the corruption in F1 today. Race fixing in a sport like horseracing usually leads to to enquiries from within the governing body and has led to people going to jail in the past because of fradulent betting on rigged races. In the UK, the bookies were refusing to refund money to punters, saying that they should have known better. Bloody hypocracy... MS

Tiger Woods is 1/8th black. David G Fisher "Dave Casey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > As long as you aren't black. > >> Well golf has more honour and discipline than any other sport I've ever > >> seen.. It may bore some to death but the standards it set's for > >> sportsmanship are un-equalled by any sport. > > You mean like Tiger Woods? > > -- > Dave Casey > www.lasvegashomesdirect.com > www.teamcasey.net > www.lvkc.com > www.buycoolcrap.com