MS certainly deserved the boos, but...

The hyperbole is getting a little out of hand. "I'll never watch another F1 race"? Are people making the same decision to never watch World Rally because of the many times a team leader was kept in the lead when the other drivers were told to hold station? (i.e. Sainz and McRae). The most disgusting thing about it is not that it happened (teams do have to look long term for the championship), it was that Rubens had been denied the win when he had done such a spectacular qualifying job. MS has such a huge lead in the championship that to fix the result *was* rotten. Didn't McLaren have an unwritten rule in the Coulthard/Hakkinnen days that the one with the fastest qual time would be given the win if it was close in a 1-2 situation? Still dirty, but much better than what we saw on Sunday. So yes - *I'm* still going to watch F1, so I can cheer on Rubens and hope anyone but MS wins the championship. And I'll still drive a Ferrari in GPL ;). Kendt

"Kendt Eklund" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> The hyperbole is getting a little out of hand. "I'll never watch > another F1 race"? Are people making the same decision to never watch > World Rally because of the many times a team leader was kept in the > lead when the other drivers were told to hold station? (i.e. Sainz and > McRae). > > The most disgusting thing about it is not that it happened (teams do > have to look long term for the championship), it was that Rubens had > been denied the win when he had done such a spectacular qualifying > job. MS has such a huge lead in the championship that to fix the > result *was* rotten. > > Didn't McLaren have an unwritten rule in the Coulthard/Hakkinnen days > that the one with the fastest qual time would be given the win if it > was close in a 1-2 situation? Still dirty, but much better than what > we saw on Sunday.

I believe the Coulthard/Hakkinen rule was whomever got the the first turn first would get the win. thats why at Australia, DC pulled over because even tho MH had beaten him to the first turn, a pit snafu had put him behind. And that was decided by the drivers, between the drivers with no input from the team. It was for their own protection so they didn't wreck each other dicing...That was their choice. dave henrie > > So yes - *I'm* still going to watch F1, so I can cheer on Rubens and > hope anyone but MS wins the championship. > And I'll still drive a Ferrari in GPL ;). > > Kendt

Yeah, I'll agree that the hyperbole is getting out of hand. Trust me, I'm no MS fan (something about intentially punting people in an attempt to win a championship bothers me - it bothered me about Senna too) and haven't rooted for Ferrari since Alesi left...but really, come now. No more F1 ever for you? Really? You're never going to drive a Ferrari in GPL again? No more Vodaphone cell phones? Please. Fact is, EVERYONE realized on some level that this could easily happen. Or, at least everyone who is familiar with F1 (which everyone here seems to be). It was a crappy end to a race. MS deserved the boos. Ferrari will have their hands slapped by the WSC (more so for messing with the post race proceedures, probably, but I digress). And it will leave a bitter taste in a lot of people's mouths - maybe it will even change how you view F1. But I really doubt that many people will actually stop watching. Just my $.02 worth. -Mark "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:vM_D8.19251$L76.1158@rwcrnsc53...

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> > "Kendt Eklund" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > The hyperbole is getting a little out of hand. "I'll never watch > > another F1 race"? Are people making the same decision to never watch > > World Rally because of the many times a team leader was kept in the > > lead when the other drivers were told to hold station? (i.e. Sainz and > > McRae). > > > > The most disgusting thing about it is not that it happened (teams do > > have to look long term for the championship), it was that Rubens had > > been denied the win when he had done such a spectacular qualifying > > job. MS has such a huge lead in the championship that to fix the > > result *was* rotten. > > > > Didn't McLaren have an unwritten rule in the Coulthard/Hakkinnen days > > that the one with the fastest qual time would be given the win if it > > was close in a 1-2 situation? Still dirty, but much better than what > > we saw on Sunday. > I believe the Coulthard/Hakkinen rule was whomever got the the first

turn

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> first would get the win. thats why at Australia, DC pulled over because > even tho MH had beaten him to the first turn, a pit snafu had put him > behind. > And that was decided by the drivers, between the drivers with no input > from the team. It was for their own protection so they didn't wreck each > other dicing...That was their choice. > dave henrie > > > > > So yes - *I'm* still going to watch F1, so I can cheer on Rubens and > > hope anyone but MS wins the championship. > > And I'll still drive a Ferrari in GPL ;). > > > > Kendt > >

On Mon, 13 May 2002 23:50:19 -0400, "Mark Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Yeah, I'll agree that the hyperbole is getting out of hand. Trust me, I'm >no MS fan (something about intentially punting people in an attempt to win a >championship bothers me - it bothered me about Senna too) and haven't rooted >for Ferrari since Alesi left...but really, come now. No more F1 ever for >you? Really? You're never going to drive a Ferrari in GPL again? No more >Vodaphone cell phones? Please. I better rip out my AMD processor too since they sponsor Ferrari. I thought the stunt Ferrari pulled made the race interesting. It was just going to be another Ferrari 1-2 finish but boy was I shocked. It woke me up that's for sure.

Mark Roberts ([email hidden]) wrote on 14 May 2002: <snip> > really, come now. No more F1 ever for you? Really? You're never > going to drive a Ferrari in GPL again? No more Vodaphone cell > phones? Please. <snip> I'll carry on driving the Ferrari in GPL, as it's from a better (in some ways) era... as for the Vodafone (why can no-one spell this? It's *not* spelt with a ph!) thing - actually, yes. I'm about to buy a new phone - it was going to be a Vodafone, and it now won't be. > it will leave a bitter taste in a lot of > people's mouths - maybe it will even change how you view F1. But > I really doubt that many people will actually stop watching. I'll watch it if it happens to be on when I'm in the room. But I'll be more likely to turn off when I get bored, and less likely to make a special effort to watch. And there's no chance of me buying Bernievision - if it's paying or nothing, I'll go to Castle Combe :-) -- "After all, a mere thousand yards... such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh. The GPL Scrapyard: Back again! http://www.btinternet.com/~gplscrapyard

>as for the Vodafone (why can no-one spell this? It's >*not* spelt with a ph!) thing - actually, yes. I'm about to buy a new >phone - it was going to be a Vodafone, and it now won't be. Vodafone? Whot Da Hell is a Vodafone? Are they Ferrari Red? Protest by not using yur Vodafone? = Less people running around without a cell phone glued to their head? As Martha Stewart would say "Now that would be a good thing" :-)))))))) -- 1907 - Daytona Beach Florida Glenn H. Curtiss rode a V8 powered motorcycle to a 136.30 mph record in the measured mile. The Chicago Daily News headline reads: "Fastest Mile On Earth, Bullets Are The Only Rivals Of Glenn Curtiss"

[email hidden] (Kendt Eklund) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > The hyperbole is getting a little out of hand. "I'll never watch > another F1 race"? Are people making the same decision to never watch > World Rally because of the many times a team leader was kept in the > lead when the other drivers were told to hold station? (i.e. Sainz and > McRae). Eh. This sort of thing has been happening in F1 for over 20 years. The only reason it's a big deal is because of how obvious it was - if team orders had been followed earlier in the race everyone would've just assumed that Michael outdrove him. Villeneuve/Scheckter, Villeneuve/Pironi, Coulthard/Hakkinen, etc. The only top team I can think of since the late 70's that hasn't had team orders was McLaren in the late 80's, and that was only because there was no way either Prost or Senna would've followed them. If you look elsewhere, you don't see anyone criticizing Dale Earnhardt, Jr for sitting behind Michael Waltrip instead of working with another car for the win and vice versa, as has happened at least 3 times in the past 2 years. F1 is a team sport, and if the best interests of the team are to let the #1 driver pass the #2 driver I don't see what the big deal is. Instead of complaining about Ferrari padding Schumacher's points, maybe Williams and Mclaren should try finishing in front of him once in awhile. Jason

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 13 May 2002 23:50:19 -0400, "Mark Roberts" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > It was just going to be another Ferrari 1-2 finish but boy was I shocked. It woke me up that's for sure. That in itself, speaks volumes of the state of F1 "racing." <G> -John

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > [email hidden] (Kendt Eklund) wrote in messagenews:<[email hidden]>...

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> > The hyperbole is getting a little out of hand. "I'll never watch > > another F1 race"? Are people making the same decision to never watch > > World Rally because of the many times a team leader was kept in the > > lead when the other drivers were told to hold station? (i.e. Sainz and > > McRae). > > Eh. This sort of thing has been happening in F1 for over 20 years. > The only reason it's a big deal is because of how obvious it was - if > team orders had been followed earlier in the race everyone would've > just assumed that Michael outdrove him. > > Villeneuve/Scheckter, Villeneuve/Pironi, Coulthard/Hakkinen, etc. The > only top team I can think of since the late 70's that hasn't had team > orders was McLaren in the late 80's, and that was only because there > was no way either Prost or Senna would've followed them. If you look > elsewhere, you don't see anyone criticizing Dale Earnhardt, Jr for > sitting behind Michael Waltrip instead of working with another car for > the win and vice versa, as has happened at least 3 times in the past 2 > years. > > F1 is a team sport, and if the best interests of the team are to let > the #1 driver pass the #2 driver I don't see what the big deal is. > Instead of complaining about Ferrari padding Schumacher's points, > maybe Williams and Mclaren should try finishing in front of him once > in awhile. > > Jason

Nice post. It actually occurred in the beloved 60,'s and 50's too. It's occurred 1,000 of times in every series that has teammates which is why all this ranting is a f**ken joke. One teammates will hold back, sacrificing their chance at the win, and block so the other can pull away and win a race, or simply not challenge their teammate (as Waltrip has done). Teams will intentionally screw up the pit stops to switch drivers. Teammates don't race each other with the same intensity or tactics they race another competitor. Sometimes one teammate will simply slow down and/or pretend to screw up to let the other by. All the above is NO different than what RB and MS did, except that it looks less obvious. -- David G Fisher

> was no way either Prost or Senna would've followed them. If you look > elsewhere, you don't see anyone criticizing Dale Earnhardt, Jr for > sitting behind Michael Waltrip instead of working with another car for > the win and vice versa, as has happened at least 3 times in the past 2 There is a major difference between Dale Jr, or Sr for that matter, following one of his cars to the finish line and pulling over to let one of this cars pass him for the win. Do you think Dale Sr would have pulled over at the 500 if Mikey had been on his ass instead of in front of him? Not a chance in hell. -- Dave Casey www.lasvegashomesdirect.com www.teamcasey.net www.lvkc.com www.buycoolcrap.com

Dave Casey wrote: > There is a major difference between Dale Jr, or Sr for that matter, > following one of his cars to the finish line and pulling over to let one of > this cars pass him for the win. Do you think Dale Sr would have pulled over > at the 500 if Mikey had been on his ass instead of in front of him? Not a > chance in hell. And further, what fool would believe Earnhardt Sr. would have pulled over if ordered by his team owner? Fat chance! He'd surely have told him to go f**k himself. But then, he had character. -- Fester "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it." -- Stirling Moss

"Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Dave Casey wrote: > > > There is a major difference between Dale Jr, or Sr for that matter, > > following one of his cars to the finish line and pulling over to let oneof > > this cars pass him for the win. Do you think Dale Sr would have pulledover > > at the 500 if Mikey had been on his ass instead of in front of him? Nota

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> > chance in hell. > > > And further, what fool would believe Earnhardt Sr. would have pulled > over if ordered by his team owner? Fat chance! He'd surely have told > him to go f**k himself. But then, he had character. > > > -- > > Fester > > "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If > they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff > it." -- Stirling Moss

Yep, in spades. Would have loved to hear the radio on THAT one, lol ! As said, the request would never be made, let alone done. -John

REDLINE426 ([email hidden]) wrote on 14 May 2002: > Vodafone? Whot Da Hell is a Vodafone? Are they Ferrari Red? > Protest by not using yur Vodafone? = Less people running around > without a cell phone glued to their head? As Martha Stewart would > say "Now that would be a good thing" >:-)))))))) Eh?? Vodafone are a major sponsor of Ferrari, and seeing as how the team is clearly a public company and little else these days, the only thing it'll take any notice of is sponsor pressure. All right, it's a very long shot, but it makes me feel better :-) -- "After all, a mere thousand yards... such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh. The GPL Scrapyard: Back again! http://www.btinternet.com/~gplscrapyard

David G Fisher ([email hidden]) wrote on 14 May 2002: > Nice post. It actually occurred in the beloved 60,'s and 50's too. > It's occurred 1,000 of times in every series that has teammates > which is why all this ranting is a f**ken joke.<Snip> Agreed, Fangio's team-mates were hardly chosen for their blistering speed. But in those days we didn't get the team bosses telling everyone how they were in the entertainment business. If the teams want to say "right, this is the way it is: winning is more important than anything else, no matter how we achieve it", then fine. Just don't expect me to turn on the telly for it. -- "After all, a mere thousand yards... such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh. The GPL Scrapyard: Back again! http://www.btinternet.com/~gplscrapyard

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in > Nice post. It actually occurred in the beloved 60,'s and 50's too. > It's occurred 1,000 of times in every series that has teammates which > is why all this ranting is a f**ken joke. Well, some of us like to cheer and boo when we watch our favourite motorsport, others, I suppose just sit there and say "well there was another race, wonder how that paint is getting along drying." I think this whole thing will blow over, but I've no shame in saying I think it stinks, and I was all but swearing at the TV when it happened. Emotional response isn't a bad thing, last I checked, and a few posts on the internet is hardly people going overboard or anything like that. Team sports, hmm nobody told Jason Plato and Yvan Muller about team work in last year's BTCC championship ;o) Then again, even outside of teams the same dodgy politics surface. In last year, or the year previous BTCC, Matt Neal in the privateer Team Dynamics Nissan was told to move over from 6th to let the factory team nissan driver through to score the points. I can see just such a situation in F1 with (for example, not pointing fingers) Ferrari and Sauber, even more so if Bernie's suggestion to have 2nd tier teams buy full cars from the major teams came into play. I can't see that being viable until the manufacturer's championship is replaced by a team championship... cheers John