OT-Final Opinion on Austria F1 Race

There are two main reasons why all this ranting and raving over Ferrari's decision is a joke. First, both drivers were told long before the end of the race to ease up, not push, and not "race" each other. RB was not in a fight to the finish with MS, only to be robbed of a win in the last 100 meters as so many want to insist. In fact, MS was roobed of a chance for a legitimate win (I'm sure the MS bashers will not show him lot's of sympathy for that), while RB would of been forced into an illegitimate win if MS hadn't been ordered to pass. Once they were told to hold back, not race each other, and preserve their brakes, etc., the race was over between the two of them, and we have no way of knowing who would of actually won. This is a HUGE fact that is being ignored by most of the whiners. Second, teammates have had their finishing position manipulated 1,000 of times in every series that has teammates since the 50's (and even during the beloved 60's). One teammate will hold back, sacrificing their chance at the win, and block so the other can pull away and win a race, or simply not challenge their teammate at all (as Waltrip has done with Earnhardt). Teams will intentionally screw up the pit stops to switch drivers. Teammates don't race each other with the same intensity or tactics they race another competitor. Sometimes one teammate will simply slow down and/or pretend to screw up to let the other by. All the above is NO different than what RB and MS did, except that it looks less obvious. Who cares what it looks like? The results are the same, and only a fool doesn't understand that. I know Ferrari/MS bashers got a boner over what happened Sunday and couldn't control their reactions, but hopefully they can get a grip on themselves and relax a little bit soon. -- David G Fisher

I've got to agree with you on this one, David. Although, I'm not so sure the "ranting and raving" is a joke....as much as it is based on a complete ignorance of the business side of professional motor racing. You points are all well made and "right-on!" TP "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:LTdE8.135430$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> There are two main reasons why all this ranting and raving over Ferrari's > decision is a joke. > > First, both drivers were told long before the end of the race to ease up, > not push, and not "race" each other. RB was not in a fight to the finish > with MS, only to be robbed of a win in the last 100 meters as so many want > to insist. In fact, MS was roobed of a chance for a legitimate win (I'm

sure > the MS bashers will not show him lot's of sympathy for that), while RBwould > of been forced into an illegitimate win if MS hadn't been ordered to pass. > Once they were told to hold back, not race each other, and preserve their > brakes, etc., the race was over between the two of them, and we have noway > of knowing who would of actually won. This is a HUGE fact that is being > ignored by most of the whiners. > > Second, teammates have had their finishing position manipulated 1,000 of > times in every series that has teammates since the 50's (and even duringthe > beloved 60's). One teammate will hold back, sacrificing > their chance at the win, and block so the other can pull away and win a > race, or simply not challenge their teammate at all (as Waltrip has done > with Earnhardt). Teams > will intentionally screw up the pit stops to switch drivers. Teammatesdon't > race each other with the same intensity or tactics they race another > competitor. Sometimes one teammate will simply slow down and/or pretend to > screw up to let the other by. All the above is NO different than what RBand > MS did, except that it looks less obvious. Who cares what it looks like?The > results are the same, and only a fool doesn't understand that. > > I know Ferrari/MS bashers got a boner over what happened Sunday andcouldn't > control their reactions, but hopefully they can get a grip on themselvesand > relax a little bit soon. > -- > David G Fisher > > >

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:LTdE8.135430$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> There are two main reasons why all this ranting and raving over Ferrari's > decision is a joke. > > First, both drivers were told long before the end of the race to ease up, > not push, and not "race" each other. RB was not in a fight to the finish > with MS, only to be robbed of a win in the last 100 meters as so many want > to insist.

How come MS set the fastest lap of the race with 2 laps to go, then?

Not wanting to risk sacrificing a position to go for a win is light years different from someone pulling over because of orders. Besides, any hint of team orders to not race to win in any series raises my ire, as does sandbagging and putting extra cars in a field to assure a championship. I don't care if it's done a million times, it's still not racing. Call me naive but damn, my dog chasing a volkswagen is more of a contest than that poor excuse to advertise products labelled as a 'race'. I like MS, btw. Great driver, but he took a real good chance to preserve/stand up for the integrity of sport and proved that he can only drive. Respectfully, Gavel

Well, they can say what they want about when the racing stopped but the fact remains that RB led the whole weekend only to pull over in the last 100 meters and let MS by. Either way you put it, it still stunk. There's a big difference in blocking for a teammate or just because you dont like someone, as opposed to when you just pull over at the s/f line after dominating the whole race weekend because they are the number 1 driver and you are not. I have never seen in 20 years of watching various forms of motorsports, one driver pull over coming out of the last turn to let his/her teammate win the race, simply because the teammate was higher in the points. Not once until this weekend. The simple fact there is even a debate should be enough to show it wasn't right. And to me, that stinks. Phillip

That 'ignorance' is what the motorsports industry relies on for their livelihood. And all this time I thought races were about trying to win.LOL. Gavel "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:J6eE8.162$AU.25@sccrnsc02...

Quoted text (14 lines)

> I've got to agree with you on this one, David. > > Although, I'm not so sure the "ranting and raving" is a joke....as much as > it is based on a complete ignorance of the business side of professional > motor racing. > > You points are all well made and "right-on!" > > TP > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:LTdE8.135430$[email hidden]... > > There are two main reasons why all this ranting and raving over

Ferrari's > > decision is a joke. > > > > First, both drivers were told long before the end of the race to easeup, > > not push, and not "race" each other. RB was not in a fight to the finish > > with MS, only to be robbed of a win in the last 100 meters as so manywant > > to insist. In fact, MS was roobed of a chance for a legitimate win (I'm > sure > > the MS bashers will not show him lot's of sympathy for that), while RB > would > > of been forced into an illegitimate win if MS hadn't been ordered topass. > > Once they were told to hold back, not race each other, and preservetheir

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > brakes, etc., the race was over between the two of them, and we have no > way > > of knowing who would of actually won. This is a HUGE fact that is being > > ignored by most of the whiners. > > > > Second, teammates have had their finishing position manipulated 1,000 of > > times in every series that has teammates since the 50's (and even during > the > > beloved 60's). One teammate will hold back, sacrificing > > their chance at the win, and block so the other can pull away and win a > > race, or simply not challenge their teammate at all (as Waltrip has done > > with Earnhardt). Teams > > will intentionally screw up the pit stops to switch drivers. Teammates > don't > > race each other with the same intensity or tactics they race another > > competitor. Sometimes one teammate will simply slow down and/or pretend

to

Quoted text (18 lines)

> > screw up to let the other by. All the above is NO different than what RB > and > > MS did, except that it looks less obvious. Who cares what it looks like? > The > > results are the same, and only a fool doesn't understand that. > > > > I know Ferrari/MS bashers got a boner over what happened Sunday and > couldn't > > control their reactions, but hopefully they can get a grip on themselves > and > > relax a little bit soon. > > -- > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > >

Tom Pabst wrote: > > I've got to agree with you on this one, David. Me too! Much as it pains me. > Although, I'm not so sure the "ranting and raving" is a joke....as much as > it is based on a complete ignorance of the business side of professional > motor racing. Hardly surprising, as F1 caters for the lowest form of motor racing fan. > You points are all well made and "right-on!" Yeah, much as it pains me ;) Cheers Gerry

> I've got to agree with you on this one, David. Me too! Much as it pains me. Hardly surprising, as F1 caters for the lowest form of motor racing fan. Yeah, much as it pains me ;) Cheers Gerry

> Second, teammates have had their finishing position manipulated 1,000 of > times in every series that has teammates since the 50's (and even during the > beloved 60's). Remember Ralf's glum face at Spa when he was told not to challenge Damon - he was probably quicker during the closing stages. You are right David it has gone on for years. Senna did it for Berger in the Mclaren as a thank you, Mansell tried to do it for Patrese in Italy. Far more subtle moves will have been made without us knowing. Barrichello clearly wanted to make the point leaving it to the last metres. Ferrari badly misjudged public reaction IMO. They should have engineered something a little bit more subtle like Rubens having a perceived problem & losing speed a few laps from home!

"Tom Pabst" wrote... > I've got to agree with you on this one, David. > > Although, I'm not so sure the "ranting and raving" is a > joke....as much as it is based on a complete ignorance > of the business side of professional motor racing. True, but having _your_ drivers, dressed from top to toe in _your_ logos, boo-ed on the podium, taken the piss out of in the press conference and end up having _your_ World Champion "tainted" after the season can't be good for business. People had only just about stopped talking about Michael's earlier winning tactics. > You points are all well made and "right-on!" Don't encourage him. <g> Jan. =---

Because with 2 laps to go, he would have had 2 laps of fuel left. Thus real light car. And knowing MS, he probably wasn't even trying to go fast... it just kinda happened :-)

Call me a whiner, but I'd rather see a RACE, than a choreographed/pre-determined show. One thing that'll probably come out of this; any diehard F1 fan that whines about Nascar has their head up their arse<G> -John "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:LTdE8.135430$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> There are two main reasons why all this ranting and raving over Ferrari's > decision is a joke. > > First, both drivers were told long before the end of the race to ease up, > not push, and not "race" each other. RB was not in a fight to the finish > with MS, only to be robbed of a win in the last 100 meters as so many want > to insist. In fact, MS was roobed of a chance for a legitimate win (I'm

sure > the MS bashers will not show him lot's of sympathy for that), while RBwould > of been forced into an illegitimate win if MS hadn't been ordered to pass. > Once they were told to hold back, not race each other, and preserve their > brakes, etc., the race was over between the two of them, and we have noway > of knowing who would of actually won. This is a HUGE fact that is being > ignored by most of the whiners. > > Second, teammates have had their finishing position manipulated 1,000 of > times in every series that has teammates since the 50's (and even duringthe > beloved 60's). One teammate will hold back, sacrificing > their chance at the win, and block so the other can pull away and win a > race, or simply not challenge their teammate at all (as Waltrip has done > with Earnhardt). Teams > will intentionally screw up the pit stops to switch drivers. Teammatesdon't > race each other with the same intensity or tactics they race another > competitor. Sometimes one teammate will simply slow down and/or pretend to > screw up to let the other by. All the above is NO different than what RBand > MS did, except that it looks less obvious. Who cares what it looks like?The > results are the same, and only a fool doesn't understand that. > > I know Ferrari/MS bashers got a boner over what happened Sunday andcouldn't > control their reactions, but hopefully they can get a grip on themselvesand > relax a little bit soon. > -- > David G Fisher > > >

A mistake ;-) Achim "Colin Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5yeE8.3868$[email hidden]... ... > How come MS set the fastest lap of the race with 2 laps to go, then?

John Pancoast <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Call me a whiner, but I'd rather see a RACE, than a > choreographed/pre-determined show. You should know better than to watch F1 then ;) And I agree with David btw. nothing new in team orders. Barichello just got even with the bosses by making Ferrari look stupid instead of slowing down over a few laps, not really a clever move by him, but he was probably a bit too furious to care at the time. I bet Barichello now wished he had done it the usual way and taken a longer pitstop or something like that, he is loyal enough to Ferrari to not want this negative PR IMHO. Mikkel

Lol, point taken Mikkel :) I don't know. Dave's obviously got valid points, but what I find humerous, is all the(and don't mean Dave here), "But, if, and, ah, maybe, " stuff from folks "defending" what happened. A bit to much like Clinton's "Depends what your definition of is, is" rhetoric to me <G> A lot of attempts to convince themselves what happened was ok, nothing to worry about, IMO. In other words, since the VAST majority of people think what happened stinks...........if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, then it must be...............<G> Or as we say out here in the Western U.S..............you can put whipped cream on horseshit, but it's still horseshit underneath<G> -John p.s. Again for the record, I like F1, believe it or not<G> "Mikkel Gram-Hansen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3ce1ac6f$0$97275$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (8 lines)

> John Pancoast <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Call me a whiner, but I'd rather see a RACE, than a > > choreographed/pre-determined show. > > You should know better than to watch F1 then ;) > > And I agree with David btw. nothing new in team orders. Barichello just

got > even with the bosses by making Ferrari look stupid instead of slowing down > over a few laps, not really a clever move by him, but he was probably abit > too furious to care at the time. I bet Barichello now wished he had doneit > the usual way and taken a longer pitstop or something like that, he isloyal > enough to Ferrari to not want this negative PR IMHO. > > Mikkel > >

Tom Pabst wrote:

Quoted text (7 lines)

> I've got to agree with you on this one, David. > > Although, I'm not so sure the "ranting and raving" is a joke....as much as > it is based on a complete ignorance of the business side of professional > motor racing. > > You points are all well made and "right-on!"

Rather than ignorance of the business side of racing, it's more sickened by what happens when big business takes over a sport as epitomized by this latest fiasco . Racing is supposed to be much different than this, not the usual manufactered business-world fakery. -- Fester "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it." -- Stirling Moss

NASCAR cannot be compared to F1 .. the thing we (Europeans) dont like, is going around in circles, it looks boring ... I know, it ISN'T, but it sometimes looks that way ... John Pancoast wrote:

Quoted text (55 lines)

> > Call me a whiner, but I'd rather see a RACE, than a > choreographed/pre-determined show. > > One thing that'll probably come out of this; any diehard F1 fan that > whines about Nascar has their head up their arse<G> > > -John > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:LTdE8.135430$[email hidden]... > > There are two main reasons why all this ranting and raving over Ferrari's > > decision is a joke. > > > > First, both drivers were told long before the end of the race to ease up, > > not push, and not "race" each other. RB was not in a fight to the finish > > with MS, only to be robbed of a win in the last 100 meters as so many want > > to insist. In fact, MS was roobed of a chance for a legitimate win (I'm > sure > > the MS bashers will not show him lot's of sympathy for that), while RB > would > > of been forced into an illegitimate win if MS hadn't been ordered to pass. > > Once they were told to hold back, not race each other, and preserve their > > brakes, etc., the race was over between the two of them, and we have no > way > > of knowing who would of actually won. This is a HUGE fact that is being > > ignored by most of the whiners. > > > > Second, teammates have had their finishing position manipulated 1,000 of > > times in every series that has teammates since the 50's (and even during > the > > beloved 60's). One teammate will hold back, sacrificing > > their chance at the win, and block so the other can pull away and win a > > race, or simply not challenge their teammate at all (as Waltrip has done > > with Earnhardt). Teams > > will intentionally screw up the pit stops to switch drivers. Teammates > don't > > race each other with the same intensity or tactics they race another > > competitor. Sometimes one teammate will simply slow down and/or pretend to > > screw up to let the other by. All the above is NO different than what RB > and > > MS did, except that it looks less obvious. Who cares what it looks like? > The > > results are the same, and only a fool doesn't understand that. > > > > I know Ferrari/MS bashers got a boner over what happened Sunday and > couldn't > > control their reactions, but hopefully they can get a grip on themselves > and > > relax a little bit soon. > > -- > > David G Fisher > > > > > >

-- rgds, Tony

maybe because he was told he was let to win the race, and his car was low on fuel just guessing Colin Harris wrote: > > > How come MS set the fastest lap of the race with 2 laps to go, then? -- rgds, Tony

Tom Pabst ([email hidden]) wrote on 14 May 2002:

Quoted text (7 lines)

> I've got to agree with you on this one, David. > > Although, I'm not so sure the "ranting and raving" is a joke....as > much as it is based on a complete ignorance of the business side > of professional motor racing. > > You points are all well made and "right-on!"

Having thought about this again: I think what *really* annoys me is the way in which the F1 teams go on and on about how they're in the entertainment business, and that "the show's the thing", and then do something which - in terms of the *show* - is disastrous. If - *if* - F1 were totally honest, the entry in the listings magazine would look like this: 2:00 Formula One PLC - Live coverage of the Ferrari board meeting, with acid comments from Mark Blundell. By all means, F1, run yourself to please the Stock Exchange - but don't come running when the punters get bored and switch off. If you want the however-many-billion viewers your sponsors need, then you're going to *have* to trim to their desires a bit. Last year, the chief executive of Liverpool Football Club - an extremely successful outfit - said: "first and foremost we are not a business, we are a football club". If only we could have a bit of that attitude in F1. -- "After all, a mere thousand yards... such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh. The GPL Scrapyard: Back again! http://www.btinternet.com/~gplscrapyard

On Tue, 14 May 2002 19:50:03 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I know Ferrari/MS bashers got a boner over what happened Sunday and couldn't >control their reactions, but hopefully they can get a grip on themselves and >relax a little bit soon. Well my wife didn't get that reaction, she was just disgusted.... My take on "not watching F1 again" is that I'm sure not going to get up at 0 dark hours to watch a parade anymore. Unless Michelin can get their tire act together, I'm letting TIVO do the watching and then I'll get around to watching "the race" at my own leisure ..... There still is nothing like the sound of those cars .... Jeff

> In other words, since the VAST majority of people think what happened > stinks...........if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, then it > must be...............<G> I agree, but I say that Barichello is to blame for this... not the Bosses at Ferrari. They made a calculated decision which happens all the time in motorsports, Barichello just made it look really bad by not playing by the unwritten rules and slowing down over a few laps. I can understand Barichello's frustration, but IMHO he shot himself in the foot, the sympathy of all us racefans does not really count for much when he faces the Ferrari Bosses and have to explain why he felt he had to spoil their reputetion in order to vent his frustration. It's not like Barichello was unaware of the way the Ferrari team works when he signed to contract... right ?? He signed it anyway and then he ought to give his employer a bit more positive PR instead of playing offended at the facts of life... Schumacher IS #1 at Ferrari.. Why blame MS for what happened, does anyone really expect him to say "No thank you" to 4 extra points when ordered to take them by the Ferrari bosses ?? I cannot see what MS did wrong, Barichello just made him look bad as well... not the mark of a great #2 driver who ought to know the rules of the cynical F1 game ! And no I'm not really to much into F1 anyway, but I find MS to be one of the greatest drivers ever... why all the negative comments aimed at him. He does his job, and he does it damned well ! Mikkel

huh ? Barrichello should have slowed down the last laps, and let him overtake .. ??? and then probably say he had some failure or so ... That would make F1 soooo much more nice ... More lies and more suspicious stuff going on. Maybe they should hire somebody to drive Barrichello off the track and then blame that guy (while handing him some money to keep quiet) But remember: make it look like an accident. If MS is so much better, why did Barrichello arrive first then ? Didnt find anything to sabotage on his car ? Sabotaged the wrong car ? Maybe MS had an off-day .. Maybe he is human after all, maybe he CAN be beaten by his team-mate. Mikkel Gram-Hansen wrote:

Quoted text (32 lines)

> > > In other words, since the VAST majority of people think what happened > > stinks...........if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, then it > > must be...............<G> > > I agree, but I say that Barichello is to blame for this... not the Bosses at > Ferrari. > They made a calculated decision which happens all the time in motorsports, > Barichello just made it look really bad by not playing by the unwritten > rules and slowing down over a few laps. I can understand Barichello's > frustration, but IMHO he shot himself in the foot, the sympathy of all us > racefans does not really count for much when he faces the Ferrari Bosses and > have to explain why he felt he had to spoil their reputetion in order to > vent his frustration. > > It's not like Barichello was unaware of the way the Ferrari team works when > he signed to contract... right ?? > He signed it anyway and then he ought to give his employer a bit more > positive PR instead of playing offended at the facts of life... Schumacher > IS #1 at Ferrari.. > > Why blame MS for what happened, does anyone really expect him to say "No > thank you" to 4 extra points when ordered to take them by the Ferrari bosses > ?? I cannot see what MS did wrong, Barichello just made him look bad as > well... not the mark of a great #2 driver who ought to know the rules of the > cynical F1 game ! > > And no I'm not really to much into F1 anyway, but I find MS to be one of the > greatest drivers ever... why all the negative comments aimed at him. He does > his job, and he does it damned well ! > > Mikkel

-- rgds, Tony

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:LTdE8.135430$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (14 lines)

> There are two main reasons why all this ranting and raving over Ferrari's > decision is a joke. > > First, both drivers were told long before the end of the race to ease up, > not push, and not "race" each other. RB was not in a fight to the finish > with MS, only to be robbed of a win in the last 100 meters as so many want > to insist. In fact, MS was roobed of a chance for a legitimate win (I'm sure > the MS bashers will not show him lot's of sympathy for that), while RB would > of been forced into an illegitimate win if MS hadn't been ordered to pass. > Once they were told to hold back, not race each other, and preserve their > brakes, etc., the race was over between the two of them, and we have no way > of knowing who would of actually won. This is a HUGE fact that is being > ignored by most of the whiners. >

Ok..so how do you account for the plain fact that the majority of the people who were there watching the race, the paying public, who were mostly Schummy and Ferrari fanatics, were leading the booing chorus at the end ? Are you saying these ppl are not very knowledgeable ?

Mikkel Gram-Hansen wrote: > I agree, but I say that Barichello is to blame for this... not the Bosses at > Ferrari. That's right, blame the little-guy employee instead of the corrupt bosses whose improper, private decisions he helped to bring into the public spotlight. :-/ Bravo RB. -- Fester "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it." -- Stirling Moss

i think ferrari is worried about losing marlboro sponsorship and needs to stock up on dinero with championships

Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > That's right, blame the little-guy employee instead of the corrupt > bosses whose improper, private decisions he helped to bring into the > public spotlight. :-/ > Bravo RB. > Fester It's a tough world... Barichello knows the ugly rules of this so-called "sports" I don't like the facts either, but you gotta admit it could not come as such a surprise to Barichello, and that he made Ferrari look much worse than needed by making the desicion so obvious. He is a Ferrari employee and his job is to make them look the best possible under any & all circumstances... it's NOT pretty, but it's the tough facts of F1 "racing" F1 is IMHO a parade discipline and I can't understand why everybody is soooo angered all of a sudden. It's been like this for years and years. Mikkel

Sterling Moss says he wouldn't have, but Phil Hill would have, and did. http://www.autosport.com/newsitem.cfm?id=18997&series=5 Irvine backs Schumacher. http://www.autosport.com/newsitem.cfm?id=18999&series=5 -- David G Fisher "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:LTdE8.135430$[email hidden]... > There are two main reasons why all this ranting and raving over Ferrari's > decision is a joke. > > First, both drivers were told long before the end of the race to ease up, > not push, and not "race" each other. RB was not in a fight to the finish > with MS, only to be robbed of a win in the last 100 meters as so many want > to insist. In fact, MS was roobed of a chance for a legitimate win (I'm sure > the MS bashers will not show him lot's of sympathy for that), while RB would > of been forced into an illegitimate win if MS hadn't been ordered to pass. > Once they were told to hold back, not race each other, and preserve their > brakes, etc., the race was over between the two of them, and we have no way > of knowing who would of actually won. This is a HUGE fact that is being > ignored by most of the whiners. > > Second, teammates have had their finishing position manipulated 1,000 of > times in every series that has teammates since the 50's (and even during the > beloved 60's). One teammate will hold back, sacrificing > their chance at the win, and block so the other can pull away and win a > race, or simply not challenge their teammate at all (as Waltrip has done > with Earnhardt). Teams > will intentionally screw up the pit stops to switch drivers. Teammates don't > race each other with the same intensity or tactics they race another > competitor. Sometimes one teammate will simply slow down and/or pretend to > screw up to let the other by. All the above is NO different than what RB and > MS did, except that it looks less obvious. Who cares what it looks like? The > results are the same, and only a fool doesn't understand that. > > I know Ferrari/MS bashers got a boner over what happened Sunday and couldn't > control their reactions, but hopefully they can get a grip on themselves and > relax a little bit soon. > -- > David G Fisher > > > >

Sterling Moss says he wouldn't have, but Phil Hill would have, and did. http://www.autosport.com/newsitem.cfm?id=18997&series=5 Irvine backs Schumacher. http://www.autosport.com/newsitem.cfm?id=18999&series=5 -- David G Fisher

David G Fisher wrote:

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > Sterling Moss says he wouldn't have, but Phil Hill would have, and did. > > http://www.autosport.com/newsitem.cfm?id=18997&series=5 > > Irvine backs Schumacher. > > http://www.autosport.com/newsitem.cfm?id=18999&series=5

You almost had me convinced there David, until you brought Eddie Irvine into the picture....... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Mikkel Gram-Hansen wrote:

Quoted text (21 lines)

> Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >>That's right, blame the little-guy employee instead of the corrupt >>bosses whose improper, private decisions he helped to bring into the >>public spotlight. :-/ >>Bravo RB. >>Fester > > > It's a tough world... Barichello knows the ugly rules of this so-called > "sports" > I don't like the facts either, but you gotta admit it could not come as such > a surprise to Barichello, and that he made Ferrari look much worse than > needed by making the desicion so obvious. > He is a Ferrari employee and his job is to make them look the best possible > under any & all circumstances... it's NOT pretty, but it's the tough facts > of F1 "racing" > > F1 is IMHO a parade discipline and I can't understand why everybody is soooo > angered all of a sudden. It's been like this for years and years.

Because in any line of work, there is a line the employer should never cross. Ferrari crossed it. Come to think of it, there is a line that *governments* should never cross either & it's up to the citizens to refuse to go along then. We are people, not mindless puppets. Most of us anyways. :-) -- Fester "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it." -- Stirling Moss

David G Fisher wrote:

Quoted text (7 lines)

> Sterling Moss says he wouldn't have, but Phil Hill would have, and did. > > http://www.autosport.com/newsitem.cfm?id=18997&series=5 > > Irvine backs Schumacher. > > http://www.autosport.com/newsitem.cfm?id=18999&series=5

Only proves that there are both corrupt & principled people left in this world. By your account, the corrupt outnumber the principled 3 to 1. :-P -- Fester "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it." -- Stirling Moss

Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Because in any line of work, there is a line the employer should never > cross. Ferrari crossed it. Come to think of it, there is a line that > *governments* should never cross either & it's up to the citizens to > refuse to go along then. We are people, not mindless puppets. > Most of us anyways. :-) > Fester point taken.... but the important aspect for me is that people should remember that F1 is a TEAM "sports", the individual driver is not above the team. Barichello KNEW he was a part of a team, and his role within this team was a well defined (and quite shitty) one. Bottom line: I think it stinks as well, but I fail to understand why Ferrari is being solely accused of ruining the F1 game. This has been going on for as long as I have watched F1.... just not as blatantly obvious. Team orders is an integrated part of F1 and Ferrari did not all of a sudden rape the spirit of F1, it has been laying on it's back for ages anyway ;) Mikkel

Mikkel Gram-Hansen wrote: > > Bottom line: I think it stinks as well, but I fail to understand why Ferrari > is being solely accused of ruining the F1 game. This has been going on for > as long as I have watched F1.... just not as blatantly obvious. Team orders > is an integrated part of F1 and Ferrari did not all of a sudden rape the > spirit of F1, it has been laying on it's back for ages anyway ;) Well, one of the explanations could be that with the advantage Ferrari has over all the others this year, the only possible fight for a fight for the top step on the podium is between MS and RB, and it's pretty clear that this fight wont happen Which makes Ferrari look like a bunch of chickens to me, and in the long term it might hurt them, because Ferrari has to answer to their sponsors, and sponsors are only interested in forking out the big cash as long as they feel they get something in return, which probably is TV audience, when the TV audience goes away, so does the sponsors Team orders are a part of F1, I agree, but when one team is as far ahead of the competition as Ferrari is today, it falls a bigger responsibility on them to provide some sort of race to the flag Now Ferrari has even gone out and said that team orders are already in place for Monaco, so why should I even bother to switch on my TV then, bar a mechanical breakdown or a mistake from MS, and we all know how often those two has happened lately, we already know who's going to win as soon as the Qual is over.....more or less, as there's nobody to challenge the Ferari/MS combination on sheer speed, except possibly RB but he's not allowed, and we all know that Ross Brawn is probably the best tactician in F1, gee, Monaco will be really exciting to watch, it's bad enough usually, but now.... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

This is the longest 'Final Opinion' I have ever seen. I would like to ask all the MS haters to lighten up a little. It is not his fault that his team mate moves over. RB _just_ signed a new contract with Ferrari that explicitly states he will move over if required (I will come back to this point in a minute). All the MS lovers, you could also do with a reality check. It is obviously wrong to do what Ferrari did, so don't start trying to make excuses just because MS drives for them. All the Ferrari haters - just because one man decides to let MS pass RB doesn't mean it is Ferrari being evil or anything, just this one man. The big question here is not whether it is right to have team orders, but whether it is right to make RB move over when MS is enjoying such a huge lead in the championship. Surely he has enough of a gap that 4 extra points aren't worth the hassle that they are getting now, but then, how dumb would it be if Ralf, JPM or (heaven forbid) DC managed to beat MS by 3 points at the end of the season? I know it is not likely, but think about it. What everybody has overlooked in this whole discussion is the one man, the one _evil_ man who will stop at nothing to get what he wants. He will lie, he will cheat, he will sabotage, he will stop at nothing to get what his little brain decides he would like. And that man is.......... Jean Todt. He has been cheating since his rallying days, and is now cheating in F1 as well. If Ferrari dumped him then we could get back to racing. I know the Ferrari haters love to claim that the entire Ferrari hierarchy is corrupt, but Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne, even Luca Di Montezemolo are just there for the good of the team. Jean Todt is there for his own interests. He probably had a bet on MS for his first ever victory at Austria, and made it happen. Just for the record, I love F1 and everything about it. MS, RB, FM, JB, JPM, Ferrari, Williams, Jaguar, Renault, Sauber... don't make me pick my favourite driver or team. Luckily, it means I don't have any particular love/hate for anybody in F1 (except obviously Jean Todt and everything about the McLaren Mercedes F1 team - especially DC, Ron Dennis and MH, should he ever return). Nick.