Stirling Moss, team orders and sporting values
A link about a protest over Ferrari's team orders led to debate over whether Barrichello could have refused given his contract. Posters discussed Stirling Moss's sportsmanship, including his 1958 defence of Mike Hawthorn, and whether winning matters more than reputation. One poster's suggestion that Moss was a hypocrite was rejected by others.
real motorsport
Automated summary.
LOL, interesting protest :)
Rafe Mc
On Wed, 15 May 2002 20:43:53 -0500, "///M5Brian" <[email hidden]>
wrote:
>http://www.theregus.com/content/6/24934.html
>
///M5Brian wrote:
> http://www.theregus.com/content/6/24934.html
:-D Bravo!
--
Fester
"The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If
they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff
it." -- Stirling Moss
> "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If
> they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff
> it." -- Stirling Moss
And you would also have been thrown out of the team, Stirling. RB just
signed a contract before this race stating explicitly that he will move over
if called upon to do so. It would not have been wise to take the win.
Ferrari would have cancelled his contract immediately (they probably have a
clause in there to do so, or they would just pay him off). Remember, Ferrari
represent RB's best chance of winning the world championship. Remember Eddie
Irvine in 99?
I seem to recall Stirling Moss getting Mike Hawthorn reinstated into a race
he had been disqualified from in 58, before MH went on to take the world
championship from SM by 1 point. Possibly the worst person to have a quote
of that effect from in your signature line...
Nick.
"Nick G" <[email hidden]> wrote in
Or the best, depending upon your point of view. The fact is that almost
everybody in the UK at least has heard of Stirling Moss, I'd guess the vast
majority don't have the first clue who Mike Hawthorn is/was. Maybe
"winning" isn't everything after all.
I'm assuming by your critisism you meant that stirling lost out by not
being determined to win at any cost.
F1 champions come and go, a legend like Stirling lives on.
Make of that, what you will :o)
cheers
John
Quoted text (8 lines)
> > I seem to recall Stirling Moss getting Mike Hawthorn reinstated into a > race he had been disqualified from in 58, before MH went on to take > the world championship from SM by 1 point. Possibly the worst person > to have a quote of that effect from in your signature line... > > Nick. >Nick G wrote:
That's been my point all along. Better no ride at all than help to fix
races results for anyone. Your post comes across like a Corporate Whore
as well. ;-)
You must be management.
:-)
--
Fester
"The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If
they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff
it." -- Stirling Moss
Quoted text (12 lines)
>>"The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If >> they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff >> it." -- Stirling Moss > > > And you would also have been thrown out of the team, Stirling. RB just > signed a contract before this race stating explicitly that he will move over > if called upon to do so. It would not have been wise to take the win. > Ferrari would have cancelled his contract immediately (they probably have a > clause in there to do so, or they would just pay him off). Remember, Ferrari > represent RB's best chance of winning the world championship. Remember Eddie > Irvine in 99?On Thu, 16 May 2002 18:09:43 +0100, "Nick G" <[email hidden]>
wrote:
Sometimes you gotta decide between your job or your balls.
BD
Quoted text (10 lines)
>> "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If >> they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff >> it." -- Stirling Moss > >And you would also have been thrown out of the team, Stirling........ > >Nick. > >In article <pKRE8.3887$[email hidden]>, "Nick G"
<[email hidden]> writes:
Rubens doesn't have a CHANCE at a World Championship as long as Michael is
still in the #1 seat(and healthy).
It's a tough choice, for sure. Do you take the #2 seat with an excellent team
with no chance of being #1 (and little chance at being allowed to win)for a
while? Or do you sign with a lesser team that has little chance of winning,
but will give you the #1 seat? I only *wish* I had that choice...<g>
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure
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donation. Thank you.
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (7 lines)
>And you would also have been thrown out of the team, Stirling. RB just >signed a contract before this race stating explicitly that he will move over >if called upon to do so. It would not have been wise to take the win. >Ferrari would have cancelled his contract immediately (they probably have a >clause in there to do so, or they would just pay him off). Remember, Ferrari >represent RB's best chance of winning the world championship. Remember Eddie >Irvine in 99?Rafe,
Did you solve that shutdown problem??
Craig
"Rafe McAuliffe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (11 lines)
> LOL, interesting protest :) > > Rafe Mc > > > On Wed, 15 May 2002 20:43:53 -0500, "///M5Brian" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >http://www.theregus.com/content/6/24934.html > > >Rafe,
Did you solve that shutdown problem??
Craig
Quoted text (9 lines)
> LOL, interesting protest :) > Rafe Mc > >http://www.theregus.com/content/6/24934.html"JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Or the best, depending upon your point of view. The fact is that almost
> everybody in the UK at least has heard of Stirling Moss, I'd guess thevast
Don't get me wrong, I think Stirling Moss is a legend (and that is a title
bestowed on so very few people by myself). The very fact that nobody in the
UK knows who Mike Hawthorn is shows just how little they know about F1. I
mean, he was only the first ever British Formula One World Champion. He
retired at the end of the 58 winning season. The point was, SM says that
now, but what would he _really_ have done in that situation? I can't imagine
one of the most gentlemanly drivers turning around and saying 'balls to you'
to their boss. It's exactly the same thing with people who criticise MS for
his Australia '94 incident. They forget he was banned for 2 races, and had
another perfectly valid race win taken away from him during the season. But
what they don't think about is what it would have been like to be MS in that
second where he hit the wall. The prize is the F1 World Championship. It
might never come around again. You know your car is crippled. If you take
your arch rival off the racetrack, could you live with yourself afterwards?
The more important question is, if you don't take him off, could you live
with the fact that you were so close to winning the F1 World Championship,
and didn't make it? You might never get another chance. If your car is badly
damaged, then you have a split second to decide. Should DH have waited
behind MS until the next straight and just burnt past him? Yes, but when you
come around a corner and see the leader going slowly, you think he just made
a mistake and you have to take the opportunity to dive right in there. I
think they both screwed up - remember they had taken each other out of the
race on a couple of other occasions during the season- one of which was
blatantly DH's fault at Silverstone, the other a racing incident. People
hate MS because he was the net winner in '94. They forget that the Benetton
Ford was nowhere near the Williams, or that DH was thrown in at the deep end
after Imola. It is easy for a 'moderate' F1 fan (I am not accusing _you_ of
this, it's just a general statement) to look at the 100 yards at the end of
the Austrian GP '02 and make all these accusing claims of how F1 is like WWF
or not a sport anymore. But they don't see the wider issues.
And anyway, would you rather be as 'famous' as Stirling Moss, or as
successful as Mike Hawthorn? Be _honest_.
Quoted text (11 lines)
> majority don't have the first clue who Mike Hawthorn is/was. Maybe > "winning" isn't everything after all. > I'm assuming by your critisism you meant that stirling lost out by not > being determined to win at any cost. > F1 champions come and go, a legend like Stirling lives on. > > Make of that, what you will :o) > > cheers > John >> And anyway, would you rather be as 'famous' as Stirling Moss, or as
> successful as Mike Hawthorn? Be _honest_.
I'd rather be as rich as Michael Schumacher.
"Rob Adams" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:K3fF8.19987$[email hidden]...
> > And anyway, would you rather be as 'famous' as Stirling Moss, or as
> > successful as Mike Hawthorn? Be _honest_.
>
> I'd rather be as rich as Michael Schumacher.
>
Natch :-)
--
Nick
"The overriding purpose of software is
to be useful, rather than correct."
John Carmack, id Software
"Rob Adams" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:K3fF8.19987$[email hidden]...
> > And anyway, would you rather be as 'famous' as Stirling Moss, or as
> > successful as Mike Hawthorn? Be _honest_.
>
> I'd rather be as rich as Michael Schumacher.
>
Natch :-)
--
Nick
"The overriding purpose of software is
to be useful, rather than correct."
John Carmack, id Software
"Rob Adams" wrote...
> > And anyway, would you rather be as 'famous' as Stirling Moss,
> > or as successful as Mike Hawthorn? Be _honest_.
>
> I'd rather be as rich as Michael Schumacher.
Screw fame and money... I'd like to be able to drive like them.
Jan.
=---
> > > And anyway, would you rather be as 'famous' as Stirling Moss,
> > > or as successful as Mike Hawthorn? Be _honest_.
> >
> > I'd rather be as rich as Michael Schumacher.
>
> Screw fame and money... I'd like to be able to drive like them.
Given enough money (and time), you might be able to get close.
Fame, on the other hand, you can keep. I like the freedom of being a nobody.
Nick wrote:
>
> And anyway, would you rather be as 'famous' as Stirling Moss, or as
> successful as Mike Hawthorn? Be _honest_.
If I could be famous for doing what Stirling Moss has done, with the
same class that he has done it, I'd love to be famous like Stirling
Moss, he even got a very famous win co-driving with Jenks
Juan Manuel Fangio thought very highly of Stirling Moss, I think his
words was something like "the best driver ever not to win a drivers
championship"
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
http://www.theuspits.com
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--
"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> Juan Manuel Fangio thought very highly of Stirling Moss, I think his
> words was something like "the best driver ever not to win a drivers
> championship"
> Lol ! That compliment and fifty cents will buy you a cup of coffee <G>
I like the saying, "Second place is the first loser." :)
-John
John Pancoast wrote:
That's true of course, but there's no question that some really great
drivers never got the most of their talent for whatever reason, and one
of Stirling's problems was of course the great man himself, Juan Manuel
Fangio, it's not easy beating a man like that, ask Prost, he was up
against Senna :-)
So while the record books shows Stirling as coming up short, his skills
was held in very high regards by his peers and he is respected for
conducting himself with class, in my book that counts for something,
especially when you look at the names which he can call his peers
Man, it's too bloody late for these kinds of discussions, I'm off to bed
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
http://www.theuspits.com
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--
Quoted text (10 lines)
> > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Juan Manuel Fangio thought very highly of Stirling Moss, I think his > > words was something like "the best driver ever not to win a drivers > > championship" > > > Lol ! That compliment and fifty cents will buy you a cup of coffee <G> > I like the saying, "Second place is the first loser." :)
John Pancoast <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Yeah... & I used to think that Lombardi had it right when he was quoted as
saying that "Winning ain't everything, it's the ONLY thing!"
As I've gotten older, tho, I'm thinking that maybe I want to be thought of
as a "good" guy, maybe even a sort of gentleman, not a self-centered,
ego-centric, know-it-all, etc., snob (admittedly a very talented one) from
Team Lightspeed... errrrr... I mean Ferrari (oops, wrong thread) ;)
Brian
Quoted text (12 lines)
> > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Juan Manuel Fangio thought very highly of Stirling Moss, I think his > > words was something like "the best driver ever not to win a drivers > > championship" > > > Lol ! That compliment and fifty cents will buy you a cup of coffee <G> > I like the saying, "Second place is the first loser." :) > > -John
"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
<G>
Agreed Goy. Just joking more than trying to make a point :)
-John
Quoted text (10 lines)
> John Pancoast wrote: > > > > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > Juan Manuel Fangio thought very highly of Stirling Moss, I think his > > > words was something like "the best driver ever not to win a drivers > > > championship" > > > > > Lol ! That compliment and fifty cents will buy you a cup of coffeeQuoted text (23 lines)
> > I like the saying, "Second place is the first loser." :) > > That's true of course, but there's no question that some really great > drivers never got the most of their talent for whatever reason, and one > of Stirling's problems was of course the great man himself, Juan Manuel > Fangio, it's not easy beating a man like that, ask Prost, he was up > against Senna :-) > > So while the record books shows Stirling as coming up short, his skills > was held in very high regards by his peers and he is respected for > conducting himself with class, in my book that counts for something, > especially when you look at the names which he can call his peers > > Man, it's too bloody late for these kinds of discussions, I'm off to bed > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--
"B.Farmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9pgF8.842$[email hidden]...
<G>
Who's with Team-Lightspeed ?
-John
>
>
Quoted text (12 lines)
> > John Pancoast <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > Juan Manuel Fangio thought very highly of Stirling Moss, I think his > > > words was something like "the best driver ever not to win a drivers > > > championship" > > > > > Lol ! That compliment and fifty cents will buy you a cup of coffeeQuoted text (13 lines)
> > I like the saying, "Second place is the first loser." :) > > > > -John > > Yeah... & I used to think that Lombardi had it right when he was quoted as > saying that "Winning ain't everything, it's the ONLY thing!" > > As I've gotten older, tho, I'm thinking that maybe I want to be thought of > as a "good" guy, maybe even a sort of gentleman, not a self-centered, > ego-centric, know-it-all, etc., snob (admittedly a very talented one) from > Team Lightspeed... errrrr... I mean Ferrari (oops, wrong thread) ;) > > BrianQuoted text (14 lines)
> > > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > Juan Manuel Fangio thought very highly of Stirling Moss, I think his > > > > words was something like "the best driver ever not to win a drivers > > > > championship" > > > > > > > Lol ! That compliment and fifty cents will buy you a cup of coffee > <G> > > > I like the saying, "Second place is the first loser." :) > > > > > > -John > > > > Yeah... & I used to think that Lombardi had it right when he was quotedQuoted text (8 lines)
> > Team Lightspeed... errrrr... I mean Ferrari (oops, wrong thread) ;) > > > > Brian > > Who's with Team-Lightspeed ? > > -John >
"B.Farmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:NRjF8.1533$[email hidden]...
> > > > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > >
> > > > > Juan Manuel Fangio thought very highly of Stirling Moss, I thinkhis
> > > > > words was something like "the best driver ever not to win adrivers
> > > > > championship"
> > > > >
> > > > Lol ! That compliment and fifty cents will buy you a cup ofcoffee
> > <G>
> > > > I like the saying, "Second place is the first loser." :)
> > > >
> > > > -John
> > >
> > > Yeah... & I used to think that Lombardi had it right when he wasquoted
> as
> > > saying that "Winning ain't everything, it's the ONLY thing!"
> > >
> > > As I've gotten older, tho, I'm thinking that maybe I want to bethought
because,
> in his opinion, it is too easy for mere mortals to be competitive.
>
> IMHO, N2002 is pretty realistic if we are going to compare it to Nascar, &
> not some elite group of sim racers. Seems to me that Nascar goes out ofits
Ah, ok, thanks :)
-John
Quoted text (16 lines)
> of > > > as a "good" guy, maybe even a sort of gentleman, not a self-centered, > > > ego-centric, know-it-all, etc., snob (admittedly a very talented one) > from > > > Team Lightspeed... errrrr... I mean Ferrari (oops, wrong thread) ;) > > > > > > Brian > > > > Who's with Team-Lightspeed ? > > > > -John > > > John, it was my attempt at humor which failed miserably, 'cause I meant to > say Team Brickyard (NOT Lightspeed, sry Bob & Matt). > > FWIW, it was a reference to Amish's complaints that N2002 is buggyQuoted text (9 lines)
> way to keep the fields competitive. Again, just my opinion. > > I should have responded to that thread, but lost it, & thought I was being > cute by responding here. > > I need some sleep... ;-/ > > Brian >John Pancoast wrote:
>
> Agreed Goy. Just joking more than trying to make a point :)
I kinda thought you were, like I said, too bloody late...:-)
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
http://www.theuspits.com
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--
> Agreed Goy. Just joking more than trying to make a point :)
I kinda thought you were, like I said, too ***y late...:-)
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
http://www.theuspits.com
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--
"Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:VUeF8.12120$[email hidden]:
"For Moss the manner in which the battle was fought was as important as the
outcome, and this sporting attitude cost him the 1958 World Championship
when he stood up for rival Mike Hawthorn, who faced a penalty in Portugal
that would, in retrospect, have denied him the points that he needed to
beat Moss. Stirling never for one moment entertained any thought of gaining
an advantage in such a way, and in any case his natural sense of justice
would not have allowed him to see Hawthorn unjustly penalized. So he
stepped forward to defend him. Hawthorn subsequently went on to beat Moss
by a mere point, even though he had only won one race that year to Moss's
four. It was sufficient to make Mike Hawthorn Britain's first World
Champion."
What amazes me, is that you used this as an argument as to how you think
Stirling is the LAST person who should criticize unsportsmanly conduct.
When clearly, it's the perfect argument to why Stirling would be the FIRST
EVERY TIME to speak against race fixing and poor conduct.
As to your question, I'll take the fame, the fortune, the love of my
country and the knighthood over the line in a history book and a gold cup
on the mantlepiece.
cheers
John
Quoted text (21 lines)
> "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> Or the best, depending upon your point of view. The fact is that >> almost everybody in the UK at least has heard of Stirling Moss, I'd >> guess the > vast >> majority don't have the first clue who Mike Hawthorn is/was. Maybe >> "winning" isn't everything after all. >> I'm assuming by your critisism you meant that stirling lost out by >> not being determined to win at any cost. >> F1 champions come and go, a legend like Stirling lives on. >> >> Make of that, what you will :o) >> >> cheers >> John > > And anyway, would you rather be as 'famous' as Stirling Moss, or as > successful as Mike Hawthorn? Be _honest_. >
"JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "For Moss the manner in which the battle was fought was as important asthe
> outcome, and this sporting attitude cost him the 1958 World Championship
> when he stood up for rival Mike Hawthorn, who faced a penalty in Portugal
> that would, in retrospect, have denied him the points that he needed to
> beat Moss. Stirling never for one moment entertained any thought ofgaining
I was just making the point that Stirling says that, but when he was
actually in that kind of situation (well, actually it was his choice to go
out of his way to get Mike Hawthorn reinstated), he did the opposite. They
have a name for people who say one thing but do the other - politicians. I
don't want politics to get more involved in F1 than they already are
(pushing F1 to the far east due to tobacco sponsorship laws and suchlike).
Stirling Moss was a legend. I commend what he did back in '58. But I really
hate people who have quotes in their signature line... <g>
--
Nick
"The overriding purpose of software is
to be useful, rather than correct."
John Carmack, id Software
Quoted text (16 lines)
> an advantage in such a way, and in any case his natural sense of justice > would not have allowed him to see Hawthorn unjustly penalized. So he > stepped forward to defend him. Hawthorn subsequently went on to beat Moss > by a mere point, even though he had only won one race that year to Moss's > four. It was sufficient to make Mike Hawthorn Britain's first World > Champion." > > What amazes me, is that you used this as an argument as to how you think > Stirling is the LAST person who should criticize unsportsmanly conduct. > When clearly, it's the perfect argument to why Stirling would be the FIRST > EVERY TIME to speak against race fixing and poor conduct. > > As to your question, I'll take the fame, the fortune, the love of my > country and the knighthood over the line in a history book and a gold cup > on the mantlepiece. >Nick wrote:
Excuse me my good man, but your way of looking at things is somewhat
peculiar I must say
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
http://www.theuspits.com
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > I was just making the point that Stirling says that, but when he was > actually in that kind of situation (well, actually it was his choice to go > out of his way to get Mike Hawthorn reinstated), he did the opposite. They > have a name for people who say one thing but do the other - politicians. I > don't want politics to get more involved in F1 than they already are > (pushing F1 to the far east due to tobacco sponsorship laws and suchlike).Nick wrote:
You talkin' to *me*? <g> Uh-huh. Gotcha, politician. :-)
--
Fester
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the
citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a
double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the
mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the
blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no
need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry,
infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their
rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I
have done. And I am Caesar." -- Julius Caesar
Quoted text (10 lines)
> Stirling Moss was a legend. I commend what he did back in '58. But I really > hate people who have quotes in their signature line... <g> > > > -- > Nick > > "The overriding purpose of software is > to be useful, rather than correct." > John Carmack, id Software
"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Excuse me my good man, but your way of looking at things is somewhat
> peculiar I must say
My way of looking at things is extremely clear. My way of expressing these
thoughts in a message are the problem. <g>
That Moss -> politics link was extremely bad, I must say. I kinda moved on
to a different subject entirely halfway through my post... but never mind.
The fact remains it happened, and it is now 7 days since it happened, and we
are still arguing about it. Whatever one man says about the stupid Ferrari
call is incidental. I am sure there are just as many people supporting
Ferrari (although I can't think why they don't see the other side) as
protecting their 'asset' which they pay so much a year. Eddie Irvine is one
off the top of my head, and I personally would say he would be a better
person to quote from, as he is trying to race in these times of sponsorship
and vast sums of money depending on success (whatever his viewpoint).
NB// I don't want to start an argument about Moss and Irvine: which is the
best to quote from, it's just a top-of-the-head thing and it's not
important.
When somebody quotes from one singular person to back up their thoughts on
the subject, they should be working for a newspaper here in the UK, rather
than partaking in a friendly newsgroup where people can share their own
opinions and discuss logically the effect of such a stupid decision.
I haven't seen any quotes from any of the other team bosses (I would
especially like to hear what Patrick Head and Frank Williams have to say on
the matter), but Ron Dennis is somebody whose opinion is something I could
do without (regardless of his orientation on the matter).
Lets get back to the much more major issue here - the actual Ferrari call,
instead of what one man (even if he is a legend) thinks about it. I prefer
to come to my own conclusions (you learn that if you grow up in the UK with
the heavily biased media).
PS// <g> : don't take this to heavily, guys... you are stopping me develop
my sim with all this posting :-)
--
Nick
"The overriding purpose of software is
to be useful, rather than correct."
John Carmack, id Software
Haven't had a chance to try, been way too busy at work and stuff to
check it out. Maybe soon...
Rafe Mc
On Fri, 17 May 2002 18:15:40 +0100, "Craig"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
